July 3, 2026 • 25 mins
Open Mike Eagle and Cousin Jake link for a mini-episode to unpack Questlove's long-awaited conversation with Chuck D. Along the way, they discuss the disappearance of Hip-Hop's "middle class," the vital role independent labels played in sustaining it, and why those ecosystems matter now more than ever.
As the two QLS affiliates revisit highlights from the Chuck D interview, Mike shares a surreal story about attending one of Chuck D's lectures while in college. Together, they explore the importance of preserving the stories, spaces, and conversations that keep Hip-Hop's history alive—and why documenting its legends remains as essential as celebrating them.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Left Show is a production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Open Mic Man, Happy Thursday, Happy Thursday, and Day Absolutely. Man.
You got any plans for the weekend?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah, I'm shooting video this weekend. That's the biggest plan shoot,
shooting a music video for the new project. What you
Gotta Treatment? Everything laid out? You kind of it laid out.
We've shot most of it already. It's the last day
of shooting. It ought to be nice and easy.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Oh man, I can't wait for that one. I saw
a little visual content on the Grammar online. I'm eager
for this one, and I love you know. I was
thinking a lot about Wild Pitch Records recently. I was
in something I think it was an old episode of
QLs and they were somebody was talking about Stu Fine
and before they got to the punchline, I'm like the
(01:00):
founder of Wild Pitch. And to me, even before Ruckus,
that was always a label I could trust most of
the time. And I feel like we've gotten away from
that a little bit. There are labels that you've worked
with over the years, but I do feel like Backwood
Studios is a brand you can trust.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I feel like they're like the last sons of Krypton,
you know what I'm saying. Like they are like the
the vestiges of the underground that I used to that
I came up in and I saw so many labels.
See this is and and I'm already off on a
tangent what we do. It's a rabbit old platform to me,
the unspoken story of the sort of deletion of the
(01:40):
hip hop middle class. And how like you know, a
lot of times now it's just like superstar rapper or
struggling indie. There's there's not a lot of working rappers
in the in the stratum in between. And part of
the story of that is how many labels used to
exist that are gone now you used to have And
(02:01):
this this goes back I think too, when the majority
of money that was coming in was based on selling
CDs and physical product, that there was enough money coming
in to make sure that these labels were able to
stay afloat and keep putting enough money in rappers pockets
every time they dropped the album, that they were able
to stay afloat between that and touring. Yeah, and so
many of those labels are gone, and Backwoods feels like
(02:26):
the last sort of connection to you know, not only
the aesthetics of of the older days, but a viable,
well run business that's putting forward the new voices in
that same family tree.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Absolutely new voices. And then you know, I mean even
what I consider veterans yourself. Yeah, you know, it's just
one exactly. You know, they've been very kind to some
of the They put out some great product with some
of the folks that have been kind to me and
that I've gotten to you know, share some airwith over
the years. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And
(03:03):
on the subject to hip hop, you know, we're talking
about the last episode we've run in June, which is
part of you know q LES. I think this is
year four or five of our Black Music Month initiative,
where episodes to the catalog are run every day if
it's not a mini episode like this or a new episode.
But the final new episode of this month is none
(03:26):
other than Chuck da Public Enemy. And I really was
hoping when you and I got together in the studio
with the Mirror and the rest of the team in
LA I was hoping it was going to be the
same day as Chuck, but it didn't work out that way.
But man, it was that was something something special. Man
he is.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
He's such a dope dude, and it's just like we
have some real and I hesitate to use this term
because it also covers a real crew with some homies
in mind. But we have some real living legends in
this thing. The real rap giants ha still walk the
ground and can still have a conversation with you, and
(04:07):
they're not often venerated in a way I feel like
they should be. But Chuck d is just an incredible
human being that was a titan in this rap thing,
and it's just amazing to hear him in conversation, like
(04:27):
that's just amazing here.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He's one of those talking he talks, he talks, and
he knows he talks. He laughed. You know, He's one
of those people that could read the ingredients to a
box of tricks, and I would enjoy it. Just his voice,
his conviction was funny. On the way to the studio,
I'm originally from Pittsburgh and I am a hapless Pittsburgh
Pirates fan, and he and I and Chuck's daughter Dominique
were taking the elevator up and I've said this to
(04:50):
Chuck before on the phone, but it was our first
time being in you know, a small space together. I
was like, man, aside from Clemente, Roberto Clemente, you have
done so much much for the pirate hat. And he
looked at me, He's like, you know, I'm a Mets fan, right.
And last I was like, man, all the literal elevator
conversations a guy who idolized his public enemy could have
with Chuck D. You know, I you know, I shot
(05:13):
the brick. Yeah, well that's on him though, Yeah, yeah,
well no, I mean, you know, but I so appreciate him.
It was funny like Chuck was not a last minute
booking by any extension, but kind of a last minute
agreement while we were in LA and he had a
very busy day and he was very generous with his time.
And I think, much like Questlove and Open Mike Eagle,
(05:35):
I think a Mer and Chuck D will be a
series of conversations, right because the conversation really goes from
like nineteen childhood memories up until about nineteen eighty eight
eighty nine. And I'm okay with that. I'm ready for
another hour. You know, great, what stood out to you
with this one?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know what really stood out to me. First was
him talking about the sample for Public Enemy number one,
and Emir asked him why that song, why that James
Brown song and nobody else really used And when he
told that story of the roller rink and how like
that was the song that was the signal for all
(06:16):
of the real skaters to get out there and cut
it up. And it's like, damn, you can hear that,
and I just like, that's the sort of things that
fascinate me. It's like the real life reasons that people make,
the choices that you hear on records that you would
never understand, you would never know, you would like it's
because the song's not about roller skating. You don't talk
(06:38):
about that in the song, but it's such a great song,
and you never would have known that it was this real,
visceral memory that he wanted to invoke. Yep, that is
the reason this song sounds like this.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know, I agree with you, and I think of
that in life a lot, just the butterfly effect of
small decisions. But I didn't, you know, I grew up
there were still roller rinks in my neighborhoo and stuff
like that. I I can't skate to save my life.
But the idea of the roller rink is a place
to hang out and meet folks, and like that's so
that that's a little antiquated to me. But to hear
(07:14):
Chuck talk about that in here one record, then the
blow your Head joint, you know changed, I will I
knew I knew Public Enemy number one before I knew
the Fred wes Lee James Brown joint.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So it's same.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, And I figured, like the the the founders of
hip hop and how one creative records, you know, one
choice from one DJ ultimately shapes livelihoods, legacies, incomes all
of the things. You know, It's just crazy. So it's
also interesting. He mentioned roller skating again in that conversation.
I've never seen this, but correct me if you understood
(07:49):
it differently, But he alluded to performing in roller skates,
like being He.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Did say he could do a couple of his songs
on roller skates. Yeah, that was he said. There really
smooth to what I'm like, Wait a minute, nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
About that, Like twenty twenty six sounds a special, but
it sounds cool if Chucky's doing it. Have you had
many Chuck or Pe show going experiences, So.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I've never seen a Public Enemy show. But I did
have quite the chuck the experience. And if I ever
get a chance to talk to him, gonna ask him
if he remembers this day because I went to College's
Southern Illinois University and he was brought up.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Is that an Urbana Champlain.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No, this is a Carbondale, Illinois, so comarad south of.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I've been there too. I always confuse my schools, but
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're easily confusable. But he was brought
in to give a speech and the large Ornate Central
School auditorium where you know where if they had a
ballet company come or they had a theater company come,
they do it in this big Ornate must have been
two thousand seat auditorium. And he's about to give his
(08:59):
speech and the tornado sirens start going off. And this
is the Midwest, this is southern Illinois. It's very flat,
and you know tornado watches and tornado warnings or things
that happen, but this was a serious one. And it's
not the sort of thing. When you're in a tornado warning,
you can't just like send people home, right, you have
(09:20):
to go to shelter. And so I don't and So
the part that I don't quite remember correctly is how
this would have worked with the laws of physics. But
everyone who was there was put in the basement, Chuck included.
(09:40):
And so we go from this big ornate theater with
you know, gilded ceilings and all of that. So now
we're all in a basement where the ceiling is about
you know, a shade over six feet high, and Chuck
d is down there with all of us, in the
middle of this tornado warning, and he just starts doing
the rest of his speech right there in the basement
(10:03):
and did a Q and A with us right there
in the basement. Wow, And it was just it was
just one of the most amazing moments I've ever had,
and really watching somebody adapt deal with the situation, not sweat,
not trip out, just roll with it. Now we're in
the basement. So now the talk continues, and I'm just
(10:25):
standing there, riveted the whole time. I can't remember word
he said, but I do remember him giving this speech
in this basement because we had a tornado warning.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Was he there to speak about hip hop? Was it
about you know, other issues? Or do you remember that
part or not?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I do think it was it was something to do
with hip hop. I think a lot of times stuff
on our campus was about, you know, how we turn
things around into black community sort of sort of sort
of talking points, you know, save people from falling into
street violence and then those types of issues. I believe
(11:14):
that's what it was about, but I honestly don't remember.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
He would have to remember that. I imagine that when.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
About so but I can imagine, like that's the thing.
He was so cool about it. It was one of
the things that made you think, like, how many wild
days does this man had just wild days to where
this is nothing to him? You know.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Think he made a comment to Amir in the interview,
or maybe it was the moments before we started rolling
where he said, I'm so glad you're around because people
don't have to come to me to be the talking
head for every documentary everymore, Like you know, whether it's
about hip hop or black entertainment culture or whatever. It
is amazing to me that Chuck could sit for a
(11:53):
whole hour and he's not somebody who repeats himself. He
spoke about writing as he drove. I knew he was
a messenger like that part always heard, but I never
had clarification whether he was you know, like a bike messenger,
like I never knew how to picture it, or it
sounds like he delivered photographs two different you know, he
was kind of a courier but by car. But the
(12:14):
idea of him writing some of his most classic material
while driving at night was dope.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I love that psychotic. That's just pure psychosis. You were
trying to tell people rappers are insane. Even even the
most lucid of us, You could tell we always got
a little screw loose somewhere. And I feel like that's
like the way he talked about that is like a
perfectly legal and safe activity.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, was amazing that. And then there's this moment too
and this Amir looked at me and we just started
laughing because and this is so cool to me too.
Of like you hear about the cobbled together resources that
you know brings hip hop. I got a turntable, you
got a turntable bringing them together. They got a mixer.
But Chuck was saying, you know, with the bomb Squad,
(13:02):
and I feel like, you know, people often think of
just the production. They think, oh, you know, Hank and
Keith Shockley and Eric Vietnam Sadler, but like Chuck was
very integral to that production, and he down like you
don't hear him asserting his own credit, but he was
describing how, you know, in Roosevelt, Long Island, I think
it was Roosevelt, they had this like they put all
(13:24):
their records together in one place, and they like created
a dewey decimal system of where each record could be,
you know, not alphabetical, not like the jazz is over here,
the funk is over here, but that way you could
look at a book. And Chuck was priding himself on
his penmanship. I just love that, Like that is that
is elder leadership right there. He was like you could
(13:47):
look and go, okay, cool in the gang this album
show five, you know, like you know, like you're in
a big box store. And I just thought that is
such a great image when they're making, you know, the
second and third Pe album of just those layered samples
and all that they did to make it sound the
way it did.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You know, you remind me too, how often it is
when you really go back and look, how often our
rap legends were involved in the production in ways that
we would never really understand as listeners because that weren't
the way. That wasn't the way things were talked about.
I think about Daylight Soul's involvement and a lot of
(14:27):
their records, like the like Pass and Day of themselves
bringing in samples or having the goal of Okay, I
want to I want to flip this, I want us
to use this, or making the beats themselves at home
and bringing them into the studio, and a similar thing
with like Organized Confusion. How you know, Paul C was
with them early on, but through their next couple of albums,
(14:48):
most of them were you know, it was it's Prince
Paul and Farrell themselves making the beats. It's always interesting
to me to sort of wrap my head around how
involved a lot of these rappers were in the production
in ways that you know, we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, it's it's interesting too. Like I always look at
Organized as the last disciple of Paul C. But to
my knowledge, and I could be mistaken, I don't think
that there's a released credit of like A Paul And
I know Paul was both an engineer who doubled as
a producer, but I don't know that on the first
self titled album, there's a policy credit.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, you know what, I don't actually don't remember those credits.
And I feel like, if you had to ask me
to place a bet, I'd say, yes, he's got a
credit on there. But that's only because that's what I think.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like, I actually don't know one of those. You know,
there was another thing and you and I talked about
this before we got on. But like the reason why
I still love the interview even though that, you know,
I get to produce one of the best music podcast
period is you'd get these accounts of things that aren't
there anymore, right, And I'm always like my wife, I
(15:52):
annoy the hell out of her because we'll walk around
Philadelphia and I've only been here twenty five years, but
I'll talk about what was here before this new building
is here. And I really I like that, and I've
always wanted hip hop to have more of that, you know,
I'm always fascinated. Like just yesterday, I was in New
York and I was on thirty seventh Street and I'm like, man,
I remember being in D and D Studios and it's
(16:14):
a lost now and I wish I had taken a photo.
Like I know they're online, but I wish I had
taken a photo.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I feel you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And Chuck was speaking about old venues and he said
something in passing of it's not there anymore. It's not
there anymore. And I just wanted you know, in your
journey and in your creative career, but also your fanhood
of all of this, like, are there certain venues that
you miss, you long for I wish you could have
been in. I know that's probably an obvious question.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So most of my performance history has been while I've
been living in LA So you know, one might think
that I would miss places in Chicago. I saw shows
in Chicago, but I never really performed there at the
beginning of my career. So like the knit In Factory
that was here in La, Like, it wasn't a great place.
It wasn't like it it was in Hollywood in like
(17:04):
a shopping center, like the same block is like the
Chinese Theater, so it was hard to get to and
hard to park and all of that. But I just
remember seeing some amazing shows there when I first moved here, like,
and I didn't have much to do, I didn't know
that many people, so like that was often a place
I would end up at I saw like jasone player,
(17:26):
like slick rick player somebody, you know what I'm saying,
and it'd be like, oh, this is this is so
dope to be able to see this. And that's that's
gone now. My favorite venue in the world, my favorite
venue to perform at, was this place in Portland, Oregon
called the Doug Fur Lounge. And there's a place that
was like connected to a hotel, but it was like
(17:48):
under the ground, so you wouldn't even have any idea
that there was like a big venue here, but they
it was under the ground, but it was huge. It
was like three hundred cap room that you walked downstairs
into and it was decorated like like a log cabin
almost like there was like these wood logs that were
on the sides of the walls. And not only did
(18:10):
that add an aesthetic, it was really dope for making
the room sound good too, the way that it's soaked
up the sound. And it was just my favorite favorite
venue in the world. And it's gone now. But that's
that's what happens. Especially in the pandemic. We lost so
many of the rooms that are the size that I
(18:30):
like to play that you know, I like a three
hundred to five hundred cap room that either shut down
because they couldn't have shows anymore, or Live Nation swooped
in and bought up plenty of them. So they're different
now even when you do get the chance to go
back and perform there.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And I only kind of put that together on the
fan side recently, but I miss some of those those spaces.
I miss places. I notice it because I live in
a part of Philadelphia and I'm often on the street
South Street that is still where there's a couple of clubs,
and you know, I'm regularly walking by. I think where
you perform when you're in town. Milk Boy, yep there,
(19:07):
And I just remember all the different marquis you used
to look at, just like step in and see who's
coming up if you didn't have a city paper, And
a lot of those are gone, and it's it's one
of those things like bars open late that we just
lost with the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Man, there was a period.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Of time in two thousand and eight where I was
brought in to possibly do a memoir with Eazymo B
And they were like, yo, you know the woman who
hooked it up, Nikiah Hicks, who I think is very
much part of the Young Dolph pr camp and shout
out to Nikia if she happens to hear this. But
she was like, come up to Times Square and spend
(19:42):
an evening with Ezimo in the studio. And I didn't
think much of it. I mean, like, I respected him,
I'd interviewed him, but I was like, I don't know
if this book is viable because he's not He's not
Chuck d he's not out there speaking all the time.
He's not a front facing exact pop Yeah, you know
exactly and you know heads no, but not everyone does.
But I went to the studio and he had a
bunch of Heinekens and I don't typically drink on the job,
(20:04):
but that was kind of a spec job. So we
had a few beers and it was the first time
in my life somebody showed me not like a tutorial,
but he was triggering samples off the sp twelve hundred,
and it was just fun to watch his delight, Like
he didn't really want to talk to me, which only
spoke to my consternation about the book. But watching this
man's delight, and then at the very end of the night,
you know, I needed to catch my train back to
(20:25):
Philly on my bus, he was like, do you know
what this studio was? And he goes, this is Unique Studios.
This is what he owned it from my understanding, and
he sense it's closed down, but it's where Miles Davis
recorded his last era of material. And he took me
into a room because Moby produced the last the Doubop album,
(20:46):
the Miles album with wrapping his fundamental on it. And
he took me in the room. He goes, I don't
use this room anymore because this is where my career
kind of really took flight. And the last person to really,
you know, spend a lot of time in this room
was Miles and he had the to that room. And
we're in the middle of Times Square, even in two
thousand and eight. I mean, real estate is unfathomable. And
there was dust and there were old plaques and there
(21:08):
were things, you know, old equipment, and I think of
that all the time. I'm always fascinated, not as a creator,
but as you know, a writer when I'm in these
studios of just like, who else recorded here? What else
was done here? And what are we doing as a culture.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
To keep exactly to preserve, don't we do a I mean,
you know, preservation honestly takes money. But two things. One
we got to do a better job of it too.
That is part of the reason why I like to
interview legends is because at least getting these stories in
some easily digestible digital medium that's labeled correctly and people
(21:49):
know that they're coming to to get some history is
at least one way to preserve the stories, even if
we don't have the money to preserve the places.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Such so beautifully said, and I think of your work
like I think of you talking to Prince Paul and
him referencing in Deaylav referencing Calliope Studios, which is long gone.
And I'm the type of weirdo that at eleven thirty
at night will sit at my kitchen table and try
to get like a screenshot, you know, try to get
like a Google image of what did it look like?
Because I've heard about it. What did the doors that
(22:22):
Daylau walked into to make me feet and hus and
look like? And we need that because you absolutely get
that with the Beatles, and you get that with Abbey Roads.
So on that note, and I don't mean to make
it all about studios, But you know, to end you
as a creator, like, what is the one place, be
it a venue or as a studio, what is the
one landmark? And it doesn't have to be gone, but
(22:42):
that you haven't touched or used that you would like
to on your list.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I don't see this happening, But if for some reason
I was able to do something at the Apollo that
to me seems like like I, I would probably freak out.
I would probably freak out, yeah, like like just being
able to be on that stage and see what it's
(23:08):
like to see out into that room from that stage.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I walk by. I spent a few nights staying on
one hundred and twenty fifth Street, and every time, you know,
I talked about Marquees, but every time walking by, the
Apollo is still a place and I can say I've
never been inside, which is pathetic because I've been invited
to shows there, but it still makes, you know, still
(23:34):
gives me goosebumps, just knowing the history and knowing the
power of a building in a way that you know,
I live in Philadelphia, you know, I walk by Independence
Hall every single day. Frankly I don't get from other places,
but knowing how much I love music. So that's a
great answer. I wasn't necessarily expecting that, but I hope
that manifests maybe over time.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I mean, you know, it seems like it would take
some sort of serious pivot on my part to end
up there. But you know that, like in a dream scenario,
like wow, that would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know, it would the one thing I'm trying to
learn right now and being part of this organization, I
really try to take key because I know Amir speaking
to all of us in the podcast, you know, like
every listener, every viewer, but he's like, you know, dream
boldly and you know, don't make yourself you know, I'm
trying to take heed to those things when he's like,
don't make yourself feel small, just like vision it and
(24:27):
so man, I like that. That's a great place to
h and you know, once again, the chuck the episode,
I gotta say from the inside, we've talked about it
so many times, different ideas, different things. I'm happy it
happened when it did. It was so right that it
was in person, and what sounds like both of us
look for is more in the series.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Okay, wait, man, We'll have a great video shoot this weekend,
and we'll do this again real.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Soon, Yes we will. Couslup shows a production of iHeart
(25:14):
Grading
Quest Left Show is a production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Open Mic Man, Happy Thursday, Happy Thursday, and Day Absolutely. Man.
You got any plans for the weekend?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah, I'm shooting video this weekend. That's the biggest plan shoot,
shooting a music video for the new project. What you
Gotta Treatment? Everything laid out? You kind of it laid out.
We've shot most of it already. It's the last day
of shooting. It ought to be nice and easy.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Oh man, I can't wait for that one. I saw
a little visual content on the Grammar online. I'm eager
for this one, and I love you know. I was
thinking a lot about Wild Pitch Records recently. I was
in something I think it was an old episode of
QLs and they were somebody was talking about Stu Fine
and before they got to the punchline, I'm like the
(01:00):
founder of Wild Pitch. And to me, even before Ruckus,
that was always a label I could trust most of
the time. And I feel like we've gotten away from
that a little bit. There are labels that you've worked
with over the years, but I do feel like Backwood
Studios is a brand you can trust.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I feel like they're like the last sons of Krypton,
you know what I'm saying. Like they are like the
the vestiges of the underground that I used to that
I came up in and I saw so many labels.
See this is and and I'm already off on a
tangent what we do. It's a rabbit old platform to me,
the unspoken story of the sort of deletion of the
(01:40):
hip hop middle class. And how like you know, a
lot of times now it's just like superstar rapper or
struggling indie. There's there's not a lot of working rappers
in the in the stratum in between. And part of
the story of that is how many labels used to
exist that are gone now you used to have And
(02:01):
this this goes back I think too, when the majority
of money that was coming in was based on selling
CDs and physical product, that there was enough money coming
in to make sure that these labels were able to
stay afloat and keep putting enough money in rappers pockets
every time they dropped the album, that they were able
to stay afloat between that and touring. Yeah, and so
many of those labels are gone, and Backwoods feels like
(02:26):
the last sort of connection to you know, not only
the aesthetics of of the older days, but a viable,
well run business that's putting forward the new voices in
that same family tree.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Absolutely new voices. And then you know, I mean even
what I consider veterans yourself. Yeah, you know, it's just
one exactly. You know, they've been very kind to some
of the They put out some great product with some
of the folks that have been kind to me and
that I've gotten to you know, share some airwith over
the years. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And
(03:03):
on the subject to hip hop, you know, we're talking
about the last episode we've run in June, which is
part of you know q LES. I think this is
year four or five of our Black Music Month initiative,
where episodes to the catalog are run every day if
it's not a mini episode like this or a new episode.
But the final new episode of this month is none
(03:26):
other than Chuck da Public Enemy. And I really was
hoping when you and I got together in the studio
with the Mirror and the rest of the team in
LA I was hoping it was going to be the
same day as Chuck, but it didn't work out that way.
But man, it was that was something something special. Man
he is.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
He's such a dope dude, and it's just like we
have some real and I hesitate to use this term
because it also covers a real crew with some homies
in mind. But we have some real living legends in
this thing. The real rap giants ha still walk the
ground and can still have a conversation with you, and
(04:07):
they're not often venerated in a way I feel like
they should be. But Chuck d is just an incredible
human being that was a titan in this rap thing,
and it's just amazing to hear him in conversation, like
(04:27):
that's just amazing here.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He's one of those talking he talks, he talks, and
he knows he talks. He laughed. You know, He's one
of those people that could read the ingredients to a
box of tricks, and I would enjoy it. Just his voice,
his conviction was funny. On the way to the studio,
I'm originally from Pittsburgh and I am a hapless Pittsburgh
Pirates fan, and he and I and Chuck's daughter Dominique
were taking the elevator up and I've said this to
(04:50):
Chuck before on the phone, but it was our first
time being in you know, a small space together. I
was like, man, aside from Clemente, Roberto Clemente, you have
done so much much for the pirate hat. And he
looked at me, He's like, you know, I'm a Mets fan, right.
And last I was like, man, all the literal elevator
conversations a guy who idolized his public enemy could have
with Chuck D. You know, I you know, I shot
(05:13):
the brick. Yeah, well that's on him though, Yeah, yeah,
well no, I mean, you know, but I so appreciate him.
It was funny like Chuck was not a last minute
booking by any extension, but kind of a last minute
agreement while we were in LA and he had a
very busy day and he was very generous with his time.
And I think, much like Questlove and Open Mike Eagle,
(05:35):
I think a Mer and Chuck D will be a
series of conversations, right because the conversation really goes from
like nineteen childhood memories up until about nineteen eighty eight
eighty nine. And I'm okay with that. I'm ready for
another hour. You know, great, what stood out to you
with this one?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know what really stood out to me. First was
him talking about the sample for Public Enemy number one,
and Emir asked him why that song, why that James
Brown song and nobody else really used And when he
told that story of the roller rink and how like
that was the song that was the signal for all
(06:16):
of the real skaters to get out there and cut
it up. And it's like, damn, you can hear that,
and I just like, that's the sort of things that
fascinate me. It's like the real life reasons that people make,
the choices that you hear on records that you would
never understand, you would never know, you would like it's
because the song's not about roller skating. You don't talk
(06:38):
about that in the song, but it's such a great song,
and you never would have known that it was this real,
visceral memory that he wanted to invoke. Yep, that is
the reason this song sounds like this.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You know, I agree with you, and I think of
that in life a lot, just the butterfly effect of
small decisions. But I didn't, you know, I grew up
there were still roller rinks in my neighborhoo and stuff
like that. I I can't skate to save my life.
But the idea of the roller rink is a place
to hang out and meet folks, and like that's so
that that's a little antiquated to me. But to hear
(07:14):
Chuck talk about that in here one record, then the
blow your Head joint, you know changed, I will I
knew I knew Public Enemy number one before I knew
the Fred wes Lee James Brown joint.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So it's same.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, And I figured, like the the the founders of
hip hop and how one creative records, you know, one
choice from one DJ ultimately shapes livelihoods, legacies, incomes all
of the things. You know, It's just crazy. So it's
also interesting. He mentioned roller skating again in that conversation.
I've never seen this, but correct me if you understood
(07:49):
it differently, But he alluded to performing in roller skates,
like being He.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Did say he could do a couple of his songs
on roller skates. Yeah, that was he said. There really
smooth to what I'm like, Wait a minute, nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
About that, Like twenty twenty six sounds a special, but
it sounds cool if Chucky's doing it. Have you had
many Chuck or Pe show going experiences, So.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I've never seen a Public Enemy show. But I did
have quite the chuck the experience. And if I ever
get a chance to talk to him, gonna ask him
if he remembers this day because I went to College's
Southern Illinois University and he was brought up.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Is that an Urbana Champlain.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No, this is a Carbondale, Illinois, so comarad south of.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I've been there too. I always confuse my schools, but
go ahead.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're easily confusable. But he was brought
in to give a speech and the large Ornate Central
School auditorium where you know where if they had a
ballet company come or they had a theater company come,
they do it in this big Ornate must have been
two thousand seat auditorium. And he's about to give his
(08:59):
speech and the tornado sirens start going off. And this
is the Midwest, this is southern Illinois. It's very flat,
and you know tornado watches and tornado warnings or things
that happen, but this was a serious one. And it's
not the sort of thing. When you're in a tornado warning,
you can't just like send people home, right, you have
(09:20):
to go to shelter. And so I don't and So
the part that I don't quite remember correctly is how
this would have worked with the laws of physics. But
everyone who was there was put in the basement, Chuck included.
(09:40):
And so we go from this big ornate theater with
you know, gilded ceilings and all of that. So now
we're all in a basement where the ceiling is about
you know, a shade over six feet high, and Chuck
d is down there with all of us, in the
middle of this tornado warning, and he just starts doing
the rest of his speech right there in the basement
(10:03):
and did a Q and A with us right there
in the basement. Wow, And it was just it was
just one of the most amazing moments I've ever had,
and really watching somebody adapt deal with the situation, not sweat,
not trip out, just roll with it. Now we're in
the basement. So now the talk continues, and I'm just
(10:25):
standing there, riveted the whole time. I can't remember word
he said, but I do remember him giving this speech
in this basement because we had a tornado warning.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Was he there to speak about hip hop? Was it
about you know, other issues? Or do you remember that
part or not?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I do think it was it was something to do
with hip hop. I think a lot of times stuff
on our campus was about, you know, how we turn
things around into black community sort of sort of sort
of talking points, you know, save people from falling into
street violence and then those types of issues. I believe
(11:14):
that's what it was about, but I honestly don't remember.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
He would have to remember that. I imagine that when.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
About so but I can imagine, like that's the thing.
He was so cool about it. It was one of
the things that made you think, like, how many wild
days does this man had just wild days to where
this is nothing to him? You know.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Think he made a comment to Amir in the interview,
or maybe it was the moments before we started rolling
where he said, I'm so glad you're around because people
don't have to come to me to be the talking
head for every documentary everymore, Like you know, whether it's
about hip hop or black entertainment culture or whatever. It
is amazing to me that Chuck could sit for a
(11:53):
whole hour and he's not somebody who repeats himself. He
spoke about writing as he drove. I knew he was
a messenger like that part always heard, but I never
had clarification whether he was you know, like a bike messenger,
like I never knew how to picture it, or it
sounds like he delivered photographs two different you know, he
was kind of a courier but by car. But the
(12:14):
idea of him writing some of his most classic material
while driving at night was dope.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I love that psychotic. That's just pure psychosis. You were
trying to tell people rappers are insane. Even even the
most lucid of us, You could tell we always got
a little screw loose somewhere. And I feel like that's
like the way he talked about that is like a
perfectly legal and safe activity.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, was amazing that. And then there's this moment too
and this Amir looked at me and we just started
laughing because and this is so cool to me too.
Of like you hear about the cobbled together resources that
you know brings hip hop. I got a turntable, you
got a turntable bringing them together. They got a mixer.
But Chuck was saying, you know, with the bomb Squad,
(13:02):
and I feel like, you know, people often think of
just the production. They think, oh, you know, Hank and
Keith Shockley and Eric Vietnam Sadler, but like Chuck was
very integral to that production, and he down like you
don't hear him asserting his own credit, but he was
describing how, you know, in Roosevelt, Long Island, I think
it was Roosevelt, they had this like they put all
(13:24):
their records together in one place, and they like created
a dewey decimal system of where each record could be,
you know, not alphabetical, not like the jazz is over here,
the funk is over here, but that way you could
look at a book. And Chuck was priding himself on
his penmanship. I just love that, Like that is that
is elder leadership right there. He was like you could
(13:47):
look and go, okay, cool in the gang this album
show five, you know, like you know, like you're in
a big box store. And I just thought that is
such a great image when they're making, you know, the
second and third Pe album of just those layered samples
and all that they did to make it sound the
way it did.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You know, you remind me too, how often it is
when you really go back and look, how often our
rap legends were involved in the production in ways that
we would never really understand as listeners because that weren't
the way. That wasn't the way things were talked about.
I think about Daylight Soul's involvement and a lot of
(14:27):
their records, like the like Pass and Day of themselves
bringing in samples or having the goal of Okay, I
want to I want to flip this, I want us
to use this, or making the beats themselves at home
and bringing them into the studio, and a similar thing
with like Organized Confusion. How you know, Paul C was
with them early on, but through their next couple of albums,
(14:48):
most of them were you know, it was it's Prince
Paul and Farrell themselves making the beats. It's always interesting
to me to sort of wrap my head around how
involved a lot of these rappers were in the production
in ways that you know, we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, it's it's interesting too. Like I always look at
Organized as the last disciple of Paul C. But to
my knowledge, and I could be mistaken, I don't think
that there's a released credit of like A Paul And
I know Paul was both an engineer who doubled as
a producer, but I don't know that on the first
self titled album, there's a policy credit.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, you know what, I don't actually don't remember those credits.
And I feel like, if you had to ask me
to place a bet, I'd say, yes, he's got a
credit on there. But that's only because that's what I think.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like, I actually don't know one of those. You know,
there was another thing and you and I talked about
this before we got on. But like the reason why
I still love the interview even though that, you know,
I get to produce one of the best music podcast
period is you'd get these accounts of things that aren't
there anymore, right, And I'm always like my wife, I
(15:52):
annoy the hell out of her because we'll walk around
Philadelphia and I've only been here twenty five years, but
I'll talk about what was here before this new building
is here. And I really I like that, and I've
always wanted hip hop to have more of that, you know,
I'm always fascinated. Like just yesterday, I was in New
York and I was on thirty seventh Street and I'm like, man,
I remember being in D and D Studios and it's
(16:14):
a lost now and I wish I had taken a photo.
Like I know they're online, but I wish I had
taken a photo.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I feel you.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And Chuck was speaking about old venues and he said
something in passing of it's not there anymore. It's not
there anymore. And I just wanted you know, in your
journey and in your creative career, but also your fanhood
of all of this, like, are there certain venues that
you miss, you long for I wish you could have
been in. I know that's probably an obvious question.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So most of my performance history has been while I've
been living in LA So you know, one might think
that I would miss places in Chicago. I saw shows
in Chicago, but I never really performed there at the
beginning of my career. So like the knit In Factory
that was here in La, Like, it wasn't a great place.
It wasn't like it it was in Hollywood in like
(17:04):
a shopping center, like the same block is like the
Chinese Theater, so it was hard to get to and
hard to park and all of that. But I just
remember seeing some amazing shows there when I first moved here, like,
and I didn't have much to do, I didn't know
that many people, so like that was often a place
I would end up at I saw like jasone player,
(17:26):
like slick rick player somebody, you know what I'm saying,
and it'd be like, oh, this is this is so
dope to be able to see this. And that's that's
gone now. My favorite venue in the world, my favorite
venue to perform at, was this place in Portland, Oregon
called the Doug Fur Lounge. And there's a place that
was like connected to a hotel, but it was like
(17:48):
under the ground, so you wouldn't even have any idea
that there was like a big venue here, but they
it was under the ground, but it was huge. It
was like three hundred cap room that you walked downstairs
into and it was decorated like like a log cabin
almost like there was like these wood logs that were
on the sides of the walls. And not only did
(18:10):
that add an aesthetic, it was really dope for making
the room sound good too, the way that it's soaked
up the sound. And it was just my favorite favorite
venue in the world. And it's gone now. But that's
that's what happens. Especially in the pandemic. We lost so
many of the rooms that are the size that I
(18:30):
like to play that you know, I like a three
hundred to five hundred cap room that either shut down
because they couldn't have shows anymore, or Live Nation swooped
in and bought up plenty of them. So they're different
now even when you do get the chance to go
back and perform there.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And I only kind of put that together on the
fan side recently, but I miss some of those those spaces.
I miss places. I notice it because I live in
a part of Philadelphia and I'm often on the street
South Street that is still where there's a couple of clubs,
and you know, I'm regularly walking by. I think where
you perform when you're in town. Milk Boy, yep there,
(19:07):
And I just remember all the different marquis you used
to look at, just like step in and see who's
coming up if you didn't have a city paper, And
a lot of those are gone, and it's it's one
of those things like bars open late that we just
lost with the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Man, there was a period.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Of time in two thousand and eight where I was
brought in to possibly do a memoir with Eazymo B
And they were like, yo, you know the woman who
hooked it up, Nikiah Hicks, who I think is very
much part of the Young Dolph pr camp and shout
out to Nikia if she happens to hear this. But
she was like, come up to Times Square and spend
(19:42):
an evening with Ezimo in the studio. And I didn't
think much of it. I mean, like, I respected him,
I'd interviewed him, but I was like, I don't know
if this book is viable because he's not He's not
Chuck d he's not out there speaking all the time.
He's not a front facing exact pop Yeah, you know
exactly and you know heads no, but not everyone does.
But I went to the studio and he had a
bunch of Heinekens and I don't typically drink on the job,
(20:04):
but that was kind of a spec job. So we
had a few beers and it was the first time
in my life somebody showed me not like a tutorial,
but he was triggering samples off the sp twelve hundred,
and it was just fun to watch his delight, Like
he didn't really want to talk to me, which only
spoke to my consternation about the book. But watching this
man's delight, and then at the very end of the night,
you know, I needed to catch my train back to
(20:25):
Philly on my bus, he was like, do you know
what this studio was? And he goes, this is Unique Studios.
This is what he owned it from my understanding, and
he sense it's closed down, but it's where Miles Davis
recorded his last era of material. And he took me
into a room because Moby produced the last the Doubop album,
(20:46):
the Miles album with wrapping his fundamental on it. And
he took me in the room. He goes, I don't
use this room anymore because this is where my career
kind of really took flight. And the last person to really,
you know, spend a lot of time in this room
was Miles and he had the to that room. And
we're in the middle of Times Square, even in two
thousand and eight. I mean, real estate is unfathomable. And
there was dust and there were old plaques and there
(21:08):
were things, you know, old equipment, and I think of
that all the time. I'm always fascinated, not as a creator,
but as you know, a writer when I'm in these
studios of just like, who else recorded here? What else
was done here? And what are we doing as a culture.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
To keep exactly to preserve, don't we do a I mean,
you know, preservation honestly takes money. But two things. One
we got to do a better job of it too.
That is part of the reason why I like to
interview legends is because at least getting these stories in
some easily digestible digital medium that's labeled correctly and people
(21:49):
know that they're coming to to get some history is
at least one way to preserve the stories, even if
we don't have the money to preserve the places.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Such so beautifully said, and I think of your work
like I think of you talking to Prince Paul and
him referencing in Deaylav referencing Calliope Studios, which is long gone.
And I'm the type of weirdo that at eleven thirty
at night will sit at my kitchen table and try
to get like a screenshot, you know, try to get
like a Google image of what did it look like?
Because I've heard about it. What did the doors that
(22:22):
Daylau walked into to make me feet and hus and
look like? And we need that because you absolutely get
that with the Beatles, and you get that with Abbey Roads.
So on that note, and I don't mean to make
it all about studios, But you know, to end you
as a creator, like, what is the one place, be
it a venue or as a studio, what is the
one landmark? And it doesn't have to be gone, but
(22:42):
that you haven't touched or used that you would like
to on your list.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I don't see this happening, But if for some reason
I was able to do something at the Apollo that
to me seems like like I, I would probably freak out.
I would probably freak out, yeah, like like just being
able to be on that stage and see what it's
(23:08):
like to see out into that room from that stage.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I walk by. I spent a few nights staying on
one hundred and twenty fifth Street, and every time, you know,
I talked about Marquees, but every time walking by, the
Apollo is still a place and I can say I've
never been inside, which is pathetic because I've been invited
to shows there, but it still makes, you know, still
(23:34):
gives me goosebumps, just knowing the history and knowing the
power of a building in a way that you know,
I live in Philadelphia, you know, I walk by Independence
Hall every single day. Frankly I don't get from other places,
but knowing how much I love music. So that's a
great answer. I wasn't necessarily expecting that, but I hope
that manifests maybe over time.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
I mean, you know, it seems like it would take
some sort of serious pivot on my part to end
up there. But you know that, like in a dream scenario,
like wow, that would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know, it would the one thing I'm trying to
learn right now and being part of this organization, I
really try to take key because I know Amir speaking
to all of us in the podcast, you know, like
every listener, every viewer, but he's like, you know, dream
boldly and you know, don't make yourself you know, I'm
trying to take heed to those things when he's like,
don't make yourself feel small, just like vision it and
(24:27):
so man, I like that. That's a great place to
h and you know, once again, the chuck the episode,
I gotta say from the inside, we've talked about it
so many times, different ideas, different things. I'm happy it
happened when it did. It was so right that it
was in person, and what sounds like both of us
look for is more in the series.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Okay, wait, man, We'll have a great video shoot this weekend,
and we'll do this again real.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Soon, Yes we will. Couslup shows a production of iHeart
(25:14):
Grading
Hosts And Creators
Laiya St. Clair
Questlove
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