Chuck D

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Quest Love Show is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
This doesn't happen often. This is the Quest Love Show.
I'm literally not gonna waste time and introducing our guest today.
Normally I'll take five minutes out and do the life
achievement accolades. Look at his face, he's not having it. However,
I am going to do a misslid and say, first

(00:43):
of all, this man needs no introduction whatsoever. But that said,
let me remind you that he does have a project
with the legendary drummer and Questlove Supreme guest John Dinsmore
of the Doors. It's called Dope and their album No
Country for Old Men is out now. And besides making music,

(01:06):
our guest has his hands in many a project his
uh rap Central Station magazine to bring the noise app
We'll get into that, Chuck d I thank you this.
This is one of the highlights of me doing this platform.
I literally created this platform so I could have a
normal way to ask you all the questions I ever

(01:27):
wanted to ask you as just two artists talking.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
So thank you for coming to the show. My heroes. Yeah, topic,
I remember you know when you first started it. You know,
you was the laptop man on a run in between
between the tonight show, my rehearsals and show. I'm still
in that person. Yeah, I know you still all right, and.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You know this also deserves to be you know, Jimmy
jam holds the record for a seven hour interviews. Now
we're not doing that right exactly, so I have to
we rather pick yes. Yeah, I'm being selfish for this
episode and asking the questions that I want to know.
If you guys knew inside baseball, then go ahead.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
You know, you know I give great respect to the
FOI for the Islam and the foh the fuck out
of the funk out of here over to you know,
organizations I uphold very daily in my heart.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Okay, let me start with my first question, and this
is gonna be a rapid fire, all of the place questions. Okay,
of all the James Brown backdrops to make a jam too.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
What was it about blow your head that sparked a
light bulb idea reaction? Because that song was not familiar
in terms of the James Brown cannon. This is how
we meet public getemy through public enemy number one? What
was it about a noisy buzzy synthesizer.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Roller skating, I Rose roller Rink where we had basically
DJ's come out. They played records for roller skaters because
skating was a thing in the seventies and I was
a badass skater, right, you were a skater skater like
a motherfucker. Right.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Did you ever live in Atlanta?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah? Of course.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Did you participate in any roller skating on Sundays.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Every once in a while. But before that Atlanta had
that scene. I was, you know, a roller rink was
up the block. I didn't go there for that. Roosevelt
roller Rink is where it all came together. People came
out the Roosevelt. That's where the concerts came That's where
the DJ's were able to do their thing. But in
the roller skating, of course, you know, to work on
your skills, you go on a Tuesday matinee, Wednesday, Thursday,

(03:39):
you to that level. That's when you bust your ass
because nobody was there. You know what I'm saying. You got,
you know, like six year old kids and the matinee
or whatever. But the night were really jumped off. Friday night,
Saturday night, Thursday night even, you know, and let's say
you know they say couples, let's say they playing like
Reunited by Peaches in her a couple of in forever.

(04:05):
And to ask a girl to skate with you, you
better have some skills because she ain't trying to fall
with a non skating dude, right, So not only do
you have to crack the ice by asking them to
skate with you, right, that's the number one cracked ice.
Number two, you gotta skate well, and if she don't
know how to skate, you gotta make sure that she
don't fall. That's the type of skater I was. However,

(04:29):
after the slow jam, they would say all skaters and
those that did not get a partner the skate or
said basically, after slow jams, it was time to give buck.
And that was one of the sorrows that I say.
Big up the DJ cossume.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
He might have had the twelve inch blow your head,
all skaters, man, like, you're all right, all right homegirl, go.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Way seconds again. Now you got like the fourteen fifteen eighteen,
you got the cats that really get rowdy on the wheels, right, right,
So they all kind of went when when who who?
When when? And by the time it hits that when
and that beat dropcast chaos Chaos and cats used to

(05:25):
do this the Rosevelt roller ring dudes used to like
hold each other's shoulder but come around and just throw
them bowls typed I've knocked it was the But the
thing about it, right, DJ's wasn't quick enough. Yeah, I
was gonna say, how do you catch the breaks? They
never did, And in my mind it was like, you know,

(05:47):
and by that time they moving on to like maybe
knee deep later on or because they could not sustain
the break, But what do you think was going on
in my head? I gotta make it joint the litit
only they could next, right, you know what I'm saying,
got it? I know? Right. So that's a weird but

(06:07):
very practical way that this whole thing started because I
was like, Okay, there's no DJ to extend this break.
Nobody's fast enough or skilled enough. Even Flash ain't. It's
very short. As a matter of fact, when we made
the loop for the demo Public Enemy number one, I
was doing it as a drop for W B A U.

(06:31):
And I did you know, off of two tape decks,
so they was kind of pause I pause taped, so
you know, like the thing about it, and I'm glitchy
on my timing. However, the vocals fixed all the holes
in it. So that's where the well you trying to
it had no it had no timing in it. And

(06:53):
then of course, you know, you get into the end
of the first verse, which ends on whatever bar that
it decided to end it want want ho ha, and
all that that actually was just you know, just a
combination of a bunch of different sounds and samples. Did
you guys lose the tape when you made it?

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now, that was a difficult thing. Tell me about the
art of looping that way, and art of.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Looping actually came from what I think yuk I was
gonna say, ya did this wout did it right? And
then showed Stevett. So when we went in the studio
to like, we were like number one. We could not
put it together by sampling it, especially with the equipment
at the time. And even when we did, it was
like this shit sounds like sacchering. Man, it's fake, it's

(07:37):
for Gayzy, it ain't happening right. It's got to kind
of kind of be kind of constructed in the same
Frankenstein manner. But can maybe keep a little bit more time,
and Flavor was also instrumental on on pressing a kayak
he did later on with Rebel Ala pause Flavor's timing,
which was good timing but bad at the same time.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Wait, he would play the drums on top of that.
That's him, him and Saddler. So is that why the
the bongos sound a little off a little bit? Because
when Q tips sampled it on Footprints, Now.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
This is weird.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
I will say that, you know, I give a lot
of credit to Jay Dillar for the sort of messed up,
sloppy thing. But in my mind, the very first time
I'm hearing like quite off bongos is the public ene
meaning number.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
One, because I'm one of the most offbeat, sloppiest motherfuckers
ever could tell you. Man, he'd come in my car
and I have a Buster speaker in the car and
he's like, you're not going to fix that, and I'm like, no,
I want it loud, and matter of fuck, he's even looking.
So the time it might be off, the sound might
be muffled, but what's going to come out of there

(08:47):
is something that you can feel as opposed to hear,
as opposed I can win these times of sing. So
that was the whole premise of blow your head of
like deliver what you feel. I had none to lose
because I'm making a radio promo. As a matter of fact,
when I actually had it as a demo, it is
like December of eighty four, Jay Jamster j was up

(09:11):
at the Bau studios because he was just bringing up
seriously fine and he was turning them into a group
of Arista. And so Jay was up there with Dre
Andre Brown, our doctor Dre. We say, I handed it
over Jay's lap to Dre and Dre played it and
from that point on it took on a life of
his own, the demo. So to make the demo over

(09:33):
again in the public at mean number one, it was
three years later. Three years we had to say, and then,
you know, like how do you construct this Frankenstein back
into Frankenstein for records? And it wasn't easy. So Stevett
took the two inch stutter okay and looped it around
a microphone stand around the room. So it was a

(09:53):
real loop of tape going around and then we filled
in the blanks and cut out parts and emulated without
the emulator.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Got it, you know, question number two, where's your ninety eight?

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Oh man, it was bought for a little bit and
it got banged up, and then I tried to get
a Delta eighty eight. My brother hijacked my cars and
it always ended bad.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
So right now it's in a junk shop. It's not
nowhere preserved in history.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Long long on that in the Bronco Before nineteen ninety one,
they were both out of here. Bronco broke down on
the Williamsburg Bridge. Yeah, brock down that Williamsburg. That Williamsburg
and the same Williamsburg. I go to date night on
Williamsburg Bridge nineteen ninety or something like that, and that

(10:45):
same Bronco. I wrote Terry dome In. You wrote the
lyrics inside that car, Yeah, driving to hangout and reading PA.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
You just had a dictaphone or some sort of casette
like No, I spent years doing.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Maybe what got Harry Chapin in trouble. It's like I
was a messenger. I drove and I kept writing lyrics.
I write lyrics like without looking at the at the
I would write lyrics in the past. That's how I wrote.
By Mersca show. I wrote lyrics with my right hand.
But I never looked at the seat, always kept my
eyes on the road, and I had tape decks. And

(11:21):
so where I write, I go like this. Now, the
half of the problem is it is later on deciphering it.
But you know I wrote Terror Dome and a Dog
driving the Ready Pennsylvania. Listen to Chuck Chill Outs Show,
and I'm writing like this, so you know, like later
on I'm looking at Okay, you.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Prove my theory though, Okay, So I believe that driving
is equal to dancing. No no, no to sleep no
no no, no, driving in sleep are the same to me.
So you drive a lot, yes, especially in California. So
I know people bitched about California traffic or whatever, but
I love driving. So the reason why I do it

(12:02):
is Okay, So during the pandemic, when I'm really quote
unquote doing the work, therapy all that stuff, I go
deep into kind of my neurology bag as far as
studying how the brain works. And I discovered that you know,
the five parts of the brain, alpha, beta, theta, delta, gamma, that.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Any of those parts scare you none, dude, I'm so
my metaphysical bag. Now.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
So the deal is that I learned that the way
that we retain information, Like I used to be one
of those people that would like studying, say like what
my phone number was two one five? And you don't
retain information by repetition. You retain information when you're not
paying attention.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
All right. I kind of get that, so I would
test it out because I'm terrible at lyrics all my life.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I'm gonna tell you, you're gonna help me. You're on this,
You're already on the.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Path, but think so, because I mean, there's nobody ever
like your partner black thought. There's nobody like this dude ever. Ever,
I don't understand. I'm gonna tell you the secret.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
The secret is basically all right, when I would give speeches,
try to like study in the mirror and do it.
I don't do that no more. I literally play it
on loop while I'm asleep. And that's how you retain
the information. The other way is when I want to
read a book, I will drive.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I will drive for four hours around.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
New York City just loop Manhattan, listening to a book.
Because the thing is, I'm hyper aware. Because your life
is online, you gotta watch traffic and everything.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Keep your eyes on the road looking out the front window.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Right, So your mind is in a fada state. Your
fatas state is how you retain information. And when I
want to study something, I will play what it is
and listen to it. It's literally the same as sleeping.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Well, you know what, man, you're extraordinary in here. Here's
I don't care how many times you can explain playing
the drums. I still don't know how to fuck you
do that. I don't think about it. Yeah, yeah, okay,
you don't think about a god on there. And I
could put in ten thousand hours. It's no way in
hell I'm gonna be a fucking good drummer. Dude, either
you got it or you don't. I believe in that

(14:15):
you need a talent. You need a Yes, you need
a talent. For example, my talent is I could sit
in this room and fifty years later, right blind or whatever,
I could draw exactly what I saw to the smallest
increment spec But I can't remember a word or a
sentence that I made a long time ago or recent.

(14:37):
I have always been terrible lyrics or memorized. If I listen,
if I could memorize lyrics, and I've never had writer's block.
I'd be the baddest MPC of all time.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Well, guess what you are one of the sim seasonal time.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Like an outfielders that you could do it all except
for run or some shit like that. History will say. Otherwise,
God will actually give you what you could give and
and be like you ain't got these things? How many takes? All? Right?

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Let me start with bring the noise, your level of
breath work first of all, your rhyme and of stuff
that's like I mean, don't believe the hight was slow
at ninety nine bpms, but whereas the typical bpms on
this record is somewhere between one fifteen and one twenty.
I literally listen to your entire vocal take just a

(15:39):
cappella on Nation of Millions?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
You rarely younger. Yeah, what was the longest song that
it took for you to master? On Nation of Millions?
I wasn't. I wasn't a quick take, guy, I was
never that one or two takes all. Fuck it, I
would be you know, you know what was the test
of all of us? When I get a headache. I've
only had five headaches since nineteen eighty two. Like you know,

(16:05):
like the people talk about migraines, and I don't know
what a headache is, so my headaches off a record
would come self induced, where I was just like, okay, psychological, well, no,
I'm just going to keep pushing myself into the point
where you know, oh yes, your shit has swolled up,
and then you're going to get a headache that's got
like out of Like, all right, you did eighty takes

(16:26):
because you're not happy.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
I was going to say, with righteous bombing and weaving
and Taro Dome, I hear a punch and glitch that
was slightly off.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, this very very little punches up in a pee
stuff and early piece stuff.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, but for you, like, it's just a stance at
a time until who's the judge that will determine.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
That to take all of us, all of us me
doing it, somebody on the other side. For example, the
Rebel with all the pause that we hear was a
second day attempt. Wasn't what I was not happy with
the first stand tamp. It was a bear too because
we had to go in stages with Rebel. We had
to be like, okay, now we got to take this

(17:08):
thing from a demo stage, which always sounded the best.
Now we got to make a recording. Okay. Wow. In
the minute of our testing to see if we had
to write was Buster and Charlie Brown and leaders who
happened to be in there as we were getting that.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Buster told me he cried riddle tears when he first
heard Rebel.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I had to tell him stop running around the goddamn
place and s yo, get up out of here. Y're
gonna be running all over the damn fucking place going downstairs,
you know. But they were like at that particular moment
that they happened to hang around. They were right there
when we were comember. We were trying to make something
out of that, you know, and that record happened. I

(17:49):
happened to get that record. I think I told you
this before the Food for Thought record. Yeah, who did you?

Speaker 1 (17:54):
You said you took it from someone's crib.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah. I was telling me the story from soup to Nuts. No,
I was gonna give you from super Nuts. I would
just say that I went down to it. I was
talking to this girl right and you know, it was
in the basement and it was a long night that
never went anywhere, but I had to I broke out
and I was like can I baw this record? That's it?
And I bawled the record. I was supposed to bring

(18:17):
it back. I found out that was on the record,
you know, and I was like, okay. But then this
was like seven years before I actually maybe five years
before I actually you know. Yeah. So the point of
the matter is is like it went through phases and
stages of what I can hear in my head, Like
I have never ever done what I really have heard

(18:39):
in my head. I'm only half of the sonic guy
Hanker's other guys like he ain't really ever heard really
what he heard. He is in his head to actually
do it.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
If you guys have the technology now what we do
it's called AI, but that's what I meant. If you
have the technology. Now, do you think that these albums
would have been even albums?

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Oat meal? Now? Bro? Everything's part of the blood and
oatmeal now is it? Like? Anything is everything? There's no comparison.
There'll never be another Roots, you know? Why? Why what's
the second band to the Roots? Right now? Let's see cricketsickets?

(19:22):
The work wasn't the work that you turned down? Who's
picking up the scraps? Oh yeah? Roots turned down ten
thousand jobs make history every night on National TV. Who's
the second band? This is the biggest difference between thirty
or forty years of.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
That's actually a shame, though it's all right, here's the deal.
Though Rebel comes out, I swear.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
To God the next not the next week.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Two weeks later on Lady b Show, suddenly dismasters part
time hustler, wrong by Big Daddy King and I the
whole bridge thing versus whatever. But immediately in fourteen days,
New York responds to Rebel without a pause, changing the

(20:12):
whole entire paradigm shift happens.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Rebel comes after the Latin quarter wildness of Public Enemy
number one as an instrumental setting, setting some kind of
fire in there. And then I hear but that wasn't
received well when it was first played or wrong MC
cadence at the time Rock Him and Kris One changed
the whole game with their Cadence and South Bronx really

(20:38):
poetry by Chris One Productions. And Kris One is telling
you straight out that I'm changing the way that we
actually speak deliver, and then you rock Him, would Eric
be for President? And then more importantly, my melody changed
the whole way that they were like Louis Armstrong, you know,
and Ellen and to the way you phrase things, and

(21:02):
it changed. So my favorite album, and this is another thing,
and I'm glad I'm here to say that. You know,
we're in the fortieth year. I'm talking about a shame.
We're in the fortieth year anniversary of what I consider
the greatest album of all time because not only was
it groundbreaking, it busts through the Colosseum doors and crowded

(21:22):
floors and arenas. And that's Raising Hell by Run DMC.
I forgot that. It's the fortieth fortieth to this point
right now, right then, it's also the fortieth anniversary of
the Raising Hell Tour, which was a third national tour
subsequently after the first Fresh Rest one and Fresh Rest two,
and then Raising Hell really put the hammer to the

(21:43):
nail because Rundium C. Houdini, who never gets talked about,
right because because not only recording wise did they do
the thing with John Lelle Ecstasy and Graham Master D.
But by nineteen eighty six, I mean, you got a
group that's coming on right four run in D and J.
That's really seriously the closing this building out because they

(22:06):
got now they got you know, funky beating all these
other records and they hitting it like wow.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
There's two groups that have not seen in action and
even on YouTube. I mean the Freees come out of
the ninth video gives you just an inkling of what
their show was, and for some reason, not one person
thought to pull out a camera to catch that's the
sonic cat there.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
People. Lucky you had listen. The problem is you got
one tens out there that catch still. And you know,
when you had a one ten camera, you know half
of the half of the film because especially if you're
shooting your one ten and a dark arena, right then
you go to Walgreens and come to find out you
got three pictures out of like what twenty Nah, I'm
at video cameras, Yeah, like i've video cameras is nineteen ninety,

(22:50):
nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
No eighty cash Money. DJ cash Money is documented his.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Entire from like eighty six. I know they you know
what it was one of those things man back then,
it's like we're not letting you in this arena with anything.
They checking metal detect, especially after Long Beach and stuff
like that. But yeah, there should be more somewhere like
the closest we get to see Whudini before the show,

(23:18):
like just like I said, and the priests come out
at night, which also what they did escape with. They
also did escape as well is when you see Jermaine
dupri and everybody getting on. That made people want to
be at MC more than just seeing what happened on
the stage. It's like the buses, it's like yow. You know.
My first years on tour, the only way I could

(23:39):
put is that I was older and I felt like
a camp counselor it was like summer camp because tours
only took place in the summer.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
How many buses would be What was your first tour?

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Nineteen eighty seven. Beastie Boys licensed l April first, nineteen
eighty seven, and we played at the Passaic Theater which
is down down, and then the New Hayn Coliseum on
the fifteenth of April eighty seven, and that's torn down.
The crazy thing about it, I played in more torn
down arenas and that's the and I was able to

(24:11):
still play stadiums and arenas today. But it's really weird
because you go and see a place and it's like,
you know, like this is The thing about old heads.
When you're old head, when you go to a place,
if you know, if you're open enough, you.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Still see an old building, just like, oh so when
you come to Philly, you still think of the spectrum.
Of course I see the spectrum, actually get it, just
like old heads, old heads when they could go to
a new spot and be like, oh, yeah, that's where
so and so was. I go up Broad Street and
I still remember when Conniemac Stadium was there because I had,
you know, family down in Philadelphia and always wondered, like,

(24:47):
why we keep coming to Philly and why are we
going while we keep going to Polymore.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
You know. So that's why I couldn't even watch The
Wire Man, because the wire just reminded me of times
I did not want to actually just read familiar, for
I didn't think it was a joke man. To me.
I thought it was real serious that Baltimore was so
close to DC and just being for to.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Me in the condition that it was, Yeah, exactly, it's just.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Like we're gonna wreck Baltimore on purpose, to show so
close to the nation's capital, we're gonna make Baltemore the
worst place for black people. So That's why I just
sometimes you know, I mean, you know, and sometimes with
my statements I catch l's, But it's okay to catch
l's in the lifetime you're human, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
I wanted to know, like, for you, what was the
hardest song to execute as far as like stage and song,
not stage, just record like You're Louder than Bomb. I
don't know how you got through that. There's a lot
of words, a lot of simple.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Like here's another thing that people don't understand. I've been
on the other side of what they considered old age
for MC's for a long time. A lot of things
can affect the MC teeth, of course, you know, I
mean you I had an important was it mola or whatever?

(26:06):
And they couldn't do a rooking now on it. But
it seemed like that was the key to power and
how you else are you gonna explain it? So you
could take it out and remove it and put a
bridge over or whatever. But somehow that being connected in
your skull and your head was a strong anchor tooth.
Did you eventually get it fixed? You're never going to
replace it though, And I was going to ask did

(26:28):
it change your of course, matter of fact that, you know,
like after the age of forty, so you're going to
lose something in there. Even if you get a wisdom
tooth removed two of them in the back, something's gonna move.
So if you actually a vocalist and you don't have
the same original whatever that they had, your command over

(26:49):
certain words is just not going to happen, especially if
you're like, yeah, we keep up with it, but at
sixty five, it ain't no way in hell I'm going
to have the same stuff I had at you just not,
especially if you're a vocalist. You know, vocalist singers like
they always worried about their their pipes and can I
hit the notes? Can I hit the tones? Or do

(27:11):
I have enough breath and stuff like that, you know,
I think rappers, it's like okay, your teeth, your gums,
you know. And then here's another thing, like songs like
louding the bomb. I used to do those songs and
run and jump around. See. Our whole thing is like
we gotta do the songs, and we gotta move. You

(27:31):
gotta move like you play. We played, I mean when
I was younger, we played together, like we never did
those songs like standing up like Solomon Burke. You know what,
I'm like, you still move half of his muscle memory.
You don't get no props on something that you did
for like the last thirty forty years because it kicks
and I could bring the noise backwards and all that.
I do bring the noise on roller skates and all that.

(27:52):
But that's muscle memory. The joy. The joy to me
I wish I could do, but I'm kind of aged
and timed out. Is writing a song and being able
to do that really well, I haven't been able to
do that like like thirty years. I mean, let's say
if I learn a new song, let's say we play

(28:12):
together on tonight's show. I'm shipping bricks man because I'm like,
I got to learn this new song, man, and it's
like it take me forever. But you might have helped
me out by like going to sleep with one although
I like to sleep with no noise. Oh no, I.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Got to sleep the tones and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Man, you a miracle man, That's all I told you,
My hero. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
I'm trying to accept those flowers flowers, they're called flowers flowers.
I'll take those two Cbe says that the origins of
America's most one. It was him and Jinks going to

(28:56):
you guys' record dungeon.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
And picking out the records. You know, the origin really
was me and Cube and Glendale in front of a
CVS and me tell him to go and giving him
a dollar and go and get a notebook and to
write a solo record out kind of like sketch out.
Because Cube comes from an architectural background. So the first
thing is having a blueprint before you even rhyme, before

(29:19):
you say a word, before you write a word. It's
like simple things. Don't repeat yourself twice. Yeah, you might,
you might want to come out of the you know,
a b as a b into pe, but take your
time gradually fade into what we're doing instead of like
jumping into it. Little tricks like that would that that
really got nothing to do with the rhyme, a mission

(29:44):
statement or yourself because nobody could teach you like nobody
could teach a talent like Cube. Cube is a dude
that got three brains in his head. You too, you know,
are you a hey new album? Time, let's start work?

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Or is it always just like we got songs that
were creating and once we got nineteen of them. My
thing is like this, man, It's it's like I've always
paid attention to the rockheads that said never repeat yourself twice.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Hank Cow has a lot of that too. Where if
if there's something that really worked for us, damn if
that shit is coming back, we're all weird. Those we
better go into an area of making you try to
like what you probably would hate hearing at first. Now,
who does that?

Speaker 1 (30:29):
So when you're talking about we wanted to be Music's
worst nightmare, you really were trying to.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I'm not trying to grin that it worked. That's where
the car time comes in, because the only time you
celebrate is not with awards, not with the hooplah, not
with the crowd. You celebrating the car by your damn self.
It's saying, hmm okay, that seems like a w in
that and you keep driving. I know right. It's like
the ain't gonna be no other public enemy because all

(30:54):
the all the parts to it, we're all crazy. Man.
It's almost like Roosevelt long Alan becomes a group. You know,
Roosevelt Hempstead and you had Bill Stephanie had Eric Sadler
from him Stead it was something that happened once, ain't
gonna happen again in that way, just like I mean
with your group, it's not gonna be another route. The
dynamics of just like unrepeatable. It's last century, bro. It's

(31:18):
like what we like to talk about. We like to
talk about like who is doing something now and probably
the ones that's catching the most heat for it of
probably doing the most transcending and pioneering without it actually
having an end result to it. It doesn't necessarily have
to have an end result to it to be a
stain in the sands of time. So yeah, I mean,

(31:40):
so I'm always writing, and I'm always writing to write something.
But at the same time, I come from an art
background where I'm not making music or anything for somebody else.
I had to compromise with my other contributors because I
am the lyric writer. I have to take everybody's sitting

(32:00):
at the table's point of view in consideration. I tell people,
I said, it's like when I do my art, I'm
not doing my art for somebody else. It's like fuck it,
you like it or you don't. Matter of fact, if
you don't, I even love that more, you know, that's
that takes a weird type of thing. But you know why,
And I tell this to younger people all the time,

(32:21):
like why go to the mirror and go outside and
ask somebody how to look? Okay, that's that's pretty much
art in mind.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Because people just weren't affirmation.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
You know people well, like I said, and people are strangers, like.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
All the time, people you know will ask like, well,
tell me what you think, which they want the co sign.
I'll take a picture with you, hold it, let me see,
like I said, No, you trying to see if you
look good in it or look well the way you
want to look at it?

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Right?

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I don't care, so which gets me in trouble with
my daughter because I tell you she's got the ash
radar going on.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
She'll call me up if I'm on TV like that.
I don't know who lets you go do that? And
and I because he's just incredible, Hey don.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Assuming that I think I know the answer to this.
Most of hip hop had built a lot of their
arsenal Sonic arsenal off of the Ultimate Breaks and Beats compilations,
which DJ's you know needed them to rock a party.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
There was a great compiling because we had three rooms
of records before.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
But what I wanted to say was how did you
guys mass such a vast array of records? Because half
the stuff you guys were using weren't on the compilations,
so I could tell that you actually.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Own those records. When I saw your record room in Philly,
it was like so reminiscent that had to go in
at an early stage and age and had to categorize
three rooms of records. And that's Hank Shockley and Keith
Shockley collecting Roose records those years. Yeah, yeah, before digging
was a thing, right, you know so, but the thing

(33:57):
about here and here's here's another thing. No, all you
DJ or record collectors and stuff like this, they used
to always make the same mistake of trying to a
carry crates of records to one gig, so you're not
playing ninety five percent. You know. This is years before
Serrado gave everybody a choice, And even that backfires too,
because if you don't know the record and you just

(34:20):
have it, then how you know what to play? Just
because like I mean, people go in, I've been playing
the front end of a record, but you never heard
three quarters into the record. You never played the back end.
That's how I found Bouncy Lady for Kings of Pressure. Yeah,
because at the end, because Pleasure never gets talked about
as a band. And also what's it called zantce up

(34:41):
in Fantasy the way they mastered records, As you know,
it's like every record that came out of Fantasy happened
to have some oomph to it on the bass and
the drums.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, I would think in general that was that Saul
zants Right. Yeah, albums released on the Fantasy label had extra.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, all those Pleasure albums had it. But anyway, you know,
like so a lot of DJs made the mistake. It's like, okay,
we're collecting records, right, So when you have a collection
of records and you go from one room to two
rooms and you got to go out there and do
a gig, right, how do you categorize these recordespecially if
you're part of a record.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, who's the person that was the meticulous?

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Well number one got stupid for us After a while,
after we moved from Missus Boxley's basement into our own
spot on five ten, then we was able to spread
out with the records. Before they was very concealed and
the type basement you have to take the record crate,
and Hank and Keith created a system for us as
mobile DJ's in the late seventies where we had these crates,

(35:46):
but getting in the basement we had to make a
sharp right concrete term. And what I mean by sharp
right concrete urn is like the back of your hands.
With this crate. You got concrete and you got this
turn so many a times. And maybe we were too
stupid to wear gloves. Sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
You know, it built built up, you know this this area,
but it.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Was just got okay, we gotta find a better way.
So we went to five to ten. Then the records
was vast. We still carry records, too many records of
the gig. So I say, you know what, man, two
crates load in the van. Go. But you know what,
we could always go in and figure out what you're
gonna take to the to the appropriate gig that fits right.
So we got a room growing into two rooms of records,

(36:35):
and we got another DJ, EJ and the DJ who's
on the other side, it said time out. The biggest
mistakes that record collectors made back in the day, as
DJs is alphabetical order. That will always get you in trouble.
That right, right, and John Wi sometimes we'll get you
in trouble too. At least you know where your jazz
stuff is. You still got the shelf systems and the

(36:57):
day are what they are. I had to do it
one record to four thousand, one by one, which means
that yeah, bt express you know, do it to your
satisfied one.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Patrick Cowley, Wait, so what was the order of how
you would know where stuff is?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Book? You just go through the book instead of the spine.
You can't keep to a regular regard book. So Keith man,
y'all want to kick me out the glove God? No, no,
Keith yo man, God get the record boom boom, boom boom.
It's easy to go through the book, then it needs
to go through. You can't go through the spine. Yo.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Is your mind blowing right now?

Speaker 2 (37:37):
How you going to go through the spines? You can't
read anything on the spine. What is the spine? You're like,
all right, I think that says you know you can't
read that. And at the same time, even yeah, this
genre areas, but also we belong to a record pool
and a record pool is giving you ninety percent of bullshit.
I mean, I don't want to say recording is bullshit, but.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
How many people are contributing to this pile of record
madness that you guys are building?

Speaker 2 (38:03):
I mean, people who actually you think could contribute to
the madness that you are Usually it comes down to
two and three.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Well, yeah too, But I'm trying to figure out who's
in the Spectrum City. In terms of Keith Hanking, we're upstairs,
Eric and Vietnam. He's downstairs because he's a band studio,
so bands are coming in there rehearsing, so he has
nothing to do with the records upstairs. So it's me
Keith and Hank and his others contributed in and out.
But as far as doing that those menial tasks, it's like.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
I got books of Chuck's handwriting, writing out five thousand titles,
and you know, it's just that you had to do
it that way made it easier because when you got
new records, you could just find a new shell system
like okay, and then you kind of know kind of
like it's like a little telepathic It's like, oh, that's
that's the JB area over there, because that's where a

(38:55):
lot of shit is over there.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
And when you're been shopping, like it's your job to
categorize everything.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Eventually, after you set up a system, anybody could do it.
And then that sounds and let me let me tell
you at that time, no, no, that was easy. At
that time, my handwriting was like matter of fact. I
went through college right and where everybody had the type,
they looked at me. It was like, because I'm an
art student, I'm over there in the art school. They

(39:21):
were like, listen, everybody's supposed to type, but you good.
And to found out that professors only wanted type in
so they ain't trying to read everybody's handwriting. And so
they said, listen, everybody got to give us the same font.
So that's where we are.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
That's where we are even on social media where somebody's like,
how good your penmanship Back in the day as my daughter,
you know, like calligraphy level or I've fallen off in
so many different areas.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
But back then it's too actively right now all the time, man,
I don't I've never touched the screen. I don't touch screens.
I use this is gold. This might be a commercial
for you guys, okay, and my wow, so you're still right.
I've been using a stylist man ever since the beginning
of Apple iPhones because Toyne Julia, you know toy Ane. Yeah,

(40:08):
she gave me the first iPhone. I forgot what I
was on. I was on something using the stylist at
the particular have some single wireless stuff in two thousand
and six, and toy Anne said, here we are in
New Orleans. I think one of the essence bests. She says,
she doesn't get enough credit for all the stuff that
she's done. She's back there.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
She's literally dated me to the digital world.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, exactly, Yes, she's back there in the jobs days. Yes,
so she's like, boom, all on one device. Yes, I
heard about it. I got my iPod over here that
you gave me two years ago. He says, yeah, this
is all on one and she goes like this. I'm
like that, that's not even chicken grease friendly. I mean,
I ain't touching no screen. She says, you will, or

(40:52):
you'll figure it out, because they even have stylists. And
she goes like this. She says, take this. I'm like yeah,
but I mean I got to leave the phone that
I got. So that was my introduction to the iPhone,
and I had everything. He used a stylist. I always
use a stylist. Man like that. When people do this,
I understand how they do any of this. I am not.

(41:13):
It ain't like I'm like, oh, I can't touch the screen.
It's just like I wouldn't even know where to begin.
And my dad, you know, he passed ten years ago.
His hands were so thick. I couldn't even ever see
him typing. His hands was like like damn near like
half this table. So he could learn. So how do
you just do all that? You do that? Well, yeah,

(41:37):
because you had to followers like in two thousand and
two or something like that.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
I mean, I forced myself to learn it. You know,
I think watching Tarik do it. He now writes all.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
His rhymes and his thing. Now that I don't get
staying that dude, I don't that dude. That dude is
Leonardo da Vinci of Our Times. Man. Well, he gets up.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
He has a he has a system that he it
works for him. He in bed around a thirty PM.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Well, that's one thing I ain't I'm never doing. He
gets up three point thirty four in the morning.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
And this is the thing, like especially again, if you
if you study how the whole again, I'm obsessed with
how the brain works, you'll get probably your best work
out if you're tired. This is why you hear about
people getting up meditating at four in the morning.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Five in the morning, when you're kind of in.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
This groggy state when you want to press news, that
is when your magic will happen. Like this is also
Quincy Jones will call a session around six pm. They'll
get to the studio and he'll have everyone's favorite restaurant there,
some you know, steak restaurant or something feeds them, feeds them,
has red wine. They get nice, they start to fall

(42:47):
asleep in the break room. He lets him nap. Around
one in the morning. He'll be like, all right, guys,
let's cut. He purposely wants them tired. Literally, He's like
every session from Thriller, the musicians would do it late
at night till two in the morning because when they're
in this state of what he says, the alpha state of,

(43:10):
they won't argue back with them because they're too tired.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
They won't overthink any because everything is sweet and wonderful,
and Quincy Jones made a hundred years of the best
music of all time. We went in the studio like
it was war. We got two hours. The clock is ticket.
They don't want us anyway, We will come here, try
to take your head to night though though right you
has it all feet hours, did you not? It didn't matter.

(43:34):
I always came in there like they was trying to
kick me out. So agree, I ain't trying to spend
a lot of time. We ain't trying to spend Hank
later on because he was taking on different sessions and
different artists and people like that. But my job was like,
come in there, don't waste time. Like even with you know,
I saw the interview with you and Kim Gordon. It
was like, you know they in studio b we in

(43:57):
studio A. They ordering food. Okay, I'll take that. Boom
Hey you think you you know, come in the studio
and check us out and they're making Google you know
cool whatever, Bam, knock it out, bam back in our room.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
So there wasn't time wasting at all.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
The key is at the end of those records, especially
Hank's genius comes in the mix, but not only in
the mix, because you gotta kind of like find the
pulse of it all. Then it's got to be in Okay, yeah, man,
trust me, he's got people on his ass, like damn
he made that mix. Bro, whoever you got to take

(44:34):
it to Howie and laid off Baladamella can't have master
and fucked us up, Michael managing everything.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
No, no, but kind of everybody knows that, you know,
like nobody wants you there anyway.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
We got the upside down ugliness of it all. We
were presenting the ugliness the other side, shit that like
make kids run out of the room type shit. There
was no way to explain why public ennem you should
work so our whole thing even with it's like, yo, man,
we're not presenting anything that you're supposed to like, matter
of fact, it's talking about stuff over here. It's got

(45:07):
sounds from over here. You know, we're older as his right.
Everybody else is nineteen and eighteen and twenty right. We're
twenty eight and twenty nine, growing ass men in many cases,
so it ain't nothing here you're supposed to like. However,
there's gonna be something in there that you're gonna say whatever.
So so we took it you know, very seriously every stage,

(45:29):
not to be up in the studio, but to kind
of like get up out of there. And when you
bring a whole bunch of people together, you can't be
wasting people's time.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
I took four years out to teach at NYU, and
one of my co professors was Nix su Zenna.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Okay, every time I see Nick, Nick was like this
cause his wires were popping out of Nick's head and
to make it a fear and nations. But later on
it's just like Nick was always tired, so that Quincy
Jones thing probably always worked with Nit.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Well here's the thing, though, he told me the most
mind blowing shit of all time. My third year, I
wanted to move to hip hop.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
And I had an idea.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
I told Harry Wagner at Universal.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
I said, look, I said, is.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
There any way I can get the entire stems of
nation to millions? And maybe we could teach it to
the class so they get it for me. And I'll say,
maybe I got this a month before we started, and
I was like, let me see if I could try
to match this.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Note for note.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I don't know how you guys made like literally just
listening to it fragmented, and I wish I could convey
the world how mind blowing the construction of cold lamp
and went flavor is. It's shit I can't describe. So
the thing is, I'm going through all the boxes and everything,

(47:06):
and when I get the base heads, the meticulous amount
of note taking literally bar thirty eight this sample bar
forty two da da da one hundred and sixteen slow
down to David Bowie's thing. So I go to Professor
Nickson the next day and I was like, wait a minute,
did they pre produce this or like I'm okay. So

(47:30):
the Beastie boys were in class like two weeks earlier.
They talked about the making a Paul's boutique. They would
take one loop at a time, get the drums right,
all right, now, let's get this based one match it
to the drums. They didn't have technology and pro tools
to shift, so they basically would just make perfect loops
of each thing until it all fit together. He told

(47:53):
me that you guys would actually pre program everything. He's like,
I barely did any Yeah, post production mixing on this
as far as like like I al will spend hours
on it.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah, you got number one is going to be a monster.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
But what's the division of labor as far as.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Save save the labor in the mix. Save the labor
in the mix, because number one, we coming in front heavy.
If you come in front heavy like kind of like
it's all up in the air and you got a
million possibilities. You coming into the mix like scratching your head,
like where do we go from here? So you got
to come in here like, yo, man, this is gonna
have to be it's setting stone. For example, not live

(48:35):
in base says is a perfect example. And this is
why it's hard for one person to talk about it.
If you had me, Hank, Eric and Keith talking about
it later on me Hank and Gary talking about me,
you can't trust it and shut things like that, you
start to fill in the blanks by everybody talking at
the same time, because that's how a lot of the

(48:56):
stuff was built. So then you start to remind it.
Like the other day, me and Hank was up doing
something and he reminded me something that I forgot. I
don't forget a lot, but he reminded me that we
worked at the same place for a little while at
the same time, and he was in the record area
and I was in automotive, and I was like, that's
what we did? You know we did work together? Job

(49:18):
was this TSS Tom Square Stores and him. So you
guys didn't know. We didn't know. It was like, oh
but we forgot. I forgot that we did. I remember
that me and Keith changed tires at Seas in Hicksville
for a whole summer. That was another experience. Really, yeah,
we changed tires. Man. I had eighteen jobs before this
became my occupation. Man, So what else were they? What

(49:41):
other jobs did you do? I never would fix people's
food or cut people's hair. I ain't doing that. Those
are danger areas. But cleaning warehouses. I wrote for bum
Russell Show as a messenger. Yeah, I learned how to
basically get long weeks. What's your last job before you
knew that you could make a living in public? And

(50:03):
I tell everybody in music number one, just like to
tell you in basketball, the game will tell you what
to do.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
In music if you dope, it will tell you when
to't leave the job. It will tell you when you
could leave your regular.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Monday to Friday or whatever, pay your rent or pay
or paying you to eat. Because we all furnaces. You know,
you got to eat right. It will tell you what
told me. I had a job. I was a messenger
for about two years in him Stead. I delivered photo
packages right to places across Long Island in Queens Great.
Why because I didn't have a clock on me, I

(50:38):
didn't nobody looking over my shoulder. And I loved driving.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
When Flavor's talking about remember when we were driving out
to that was another job.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
That was a job that we we moved for me
and Flavor move furniture. That's a movie in itself because
either him at the wheel and where he at the
wheel and me in the passage seat or vice versa,
and were yelling at people get up out of the way.
Hours Stern is playing on the radio. It was a
crazy time. But we're moving furniture from my pops all
throughout New York metropolitan areas. But that was just like

(51:08):
my pops. You know, it wasn't my only job. So
one job, the job I had before I went on
tour was delivered these photos government photos, really high end
photos out of a refined photo lab. So I wrote
bum Rush the show in that car in the passing seat,
of course, recording at night, going out to I in

(51:31):
s studio in Manhattan, going to work the next day.
You develop things like your sleep, what they call long winks,
like you had to stop light. Long wink you make.
You get about a thousand long weeks. You make up
for the lost sleep. Sometime people tell you, like yo, man,
you can't make up for lost sleep. Yes, you can
long winks like I mean even sometimes.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Been doing bum Rush the show, you have to report
to your I gotta be somewhere ten thirty to pick
up a delivery o'clock.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
But that job, I've had a little bit of flexibility
that allowed me to write the record and listen to
what I wanted to listen to. Sometimes even like get
a package, go home and then go out to like
Brookhaven at the end of Long Island, and then come
back and then sometimes oh, you don't have to come
back and just pick up that package and bring it
in them all. It was a great job. EPD was
the name of the company owned by a black husband

(52:22):
and wife, and there was a major company. I thought
they were inspirational in it in itself. So the business
will tell you what to do. We had already had
bum Rush to show and then there was an opening
and a license ill to it the bottom end of
it because Fishbone had to go in and finish their album.
We're all CBS artists back then before it became Sony,

(52:44):
and we had an opening slot for Public Enemy guys
thousand dollars a night. But we had two management companies
and a booking agent. So that's there, fifteen percent there
and then ten percent you know there. But we did
the fifteen dates in the van and they was like, oh,
there's no way you could do it. Hell, we don't
have to give you a loan. No, we can do

(53:05):
it well. So I drove from the first day of
Passaic all through the northeast, played Syracuse, Rochester, New Haven,
and ended up played Lehigh Valley. These were the first
markets that were opening up because of the Beastie Boys,
I mean the Fresh Veester. They playing like major urban city.

(53:26):
We're playing like so you're benefiting the beastie boy the
ill effect. We're not playing Boston, We're playing Wooster got It,
We're playing the Centrum. It's like like you're looking at
ten twelve thousand, you know, white kids, because they're coming
out to see Beastie Boys. Murphy's Law Public Enemy, and
we were totally antithesis to It's like what the hell

(53:49):
with a siren?

Speaker 1 (53:50):
And the so the caption on the bit before Teradom
where the guys like talking about their gentlemen in cages
and oozies, and that was real.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
It was somebody who called Alan Combe's show who actually
saw us with the Beastie Boys and was pretty much
appalled by Yeah, I seen him and now they had this.
When I first seen him, they were like this, and
I was appalled when I saw them, and.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
You were there in the studio as he's describing that.
You know, I think that there's scum too.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
And yeah, I got the tape of the show and
maybe the song out of it. I would always be
and you you're the same guy back in the day.
Matter of fact, I did a voiceover document or audio
documentary for you guys. Back in the day. I would
be someplace I'm doing an interview and I was like,
can can you tape it? Can I get the tape?

(54:41):
That's how the crowd came in and takes the nation
a million yeah, because I was like, Okay, can I
get that the audio tape? So I bring back to
green Street. I got the tape. I think we can
kind of insperse the you know, interactor, and so we
don't have to go record by record by record by record,
cause we didn't want to the monotony of a record

(55:02):
just going so on by raising hell did that? So
how do we break it up? There was two influential records,
one Gratitude Earth win in Fire Why because they're kind
of doing this that's the way of the world songs,
but they're live, but it seems like it's not live.
But wow, it's like, so the crowd is what really

(55:23):
brought more people to Earth Winn Fire.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Because I speaking to what it was their version of
live the apollo for James Yeah, yeah, and so that
was very influential. And I said, you know what, it's
never really been done because whatever's been done live in
hip hop, the recordings still ain't doing what the tapes done.
And the tapes would have a bunch of although they
were kind of rudimentally rudimentary recorded, you still heard like

(55:50):
somebody saying, oh, you want to hear like yeah, as
opposed somebody say, oh and it was recorded right, but
you don't hear nobody right. So in house recording was
probably the tape that did the most because it had
the interaction.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
He said, two.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Albums, Gratitude was one. What was the other one for you?
The other one not Live of the.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Apollo or no, no, no Gratitude And I'm having a
brain fog at the minute. Okay, I told people, I said,
we want to make of what's going on of rap? Gotcha?
But that was you know, like you kind of talking
shit before you even did it. But it is. Yeah,
but the name of the album was supposed to be

(56:33):
count down the Arm Again, is it.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
True that side too was supposed to be side one?

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Inside? Side two? Was side one? You were starting the
record with she watched channel zero but this is but
what the hell? But this is where No, no, it
was gonna start with showing what you got. Well, yeah,
I know that, I know. It's an intro last second,
the last minute, Howie Weinberg. Hank was like, that's when

(56:59):
the DJ instant keeping because back then, you know, the
century line was very important. Why everybody's songs had to
especially if you black, it had to result in movement.
What's the body movement with today's music, It's not dance.
You got dancers that kind of exhibit themselves. But would

(57:19):
you say today if somebody is twenty one savage or whatever,
that's kind of old school now, right.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
All right, But I'm just saying telling you though, yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's like because in my mind twenty seventeen was like
last year, not ten years ago.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
But also, music is not sound anymore, sight, sound, story, style,
all the elements, and you might have people that might
not even know what something sounds like, but it's like,
but it's the same way I might listen to Paul Chambers.
Am I listening to Paul Chambers? Or am I looking
at the jacket and the cover and it's all of
a background noise to me, you know what I'm saying.
So the aesthetica of blues and jazz always hit me

(58:03):
more than what it sounded like. It's just like to
people to talk about mumble rap. You could go from
mumble to gibberish real quick or word salad and all that.
But it's kind of like the same with me with
singing records. You probably study the lyrics and singing records
more than me, Like what are they saying? And get away?

(58:23):
You know what I mean? So isn't that a little
bit like mumbling or what I mean, singing it.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
I never really once said singior senseless songs to the mindless.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
I mean, but it wasn't necessary to talk about that.
I mean, look, I mean, what what's what's the other? Well?
I just recently found cause I listened to a lot
of uh serious sixties and seventies all the time, religiously,
maybe a little bit too much. I didn't know that
Steve Miller. I had no idea what he's saying a
game I as. I was always thinking he's talking about
some New Carolina. He ain't a camera. Oh yes, I

(58:58):
was like, what the fuck is he saying?

Speaker 1 (59:00):
And didn't care.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
So how is that much different from mumbo rap?

Speaker 1 (59:04):
It's a feeling, Well, mumbo rap is a generation that's numb.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
You know what I'm talking about. Who's doing it and
how they do it, their execution vocally, they're not gonna
have words, and you're not gonna get like a bag
of words. But they might just like and I've I've
done that with some songs like in Terror Dome, I
glossed over some shit. I didn't know what the fuck
I was talking about.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
If you would ask me, right Now, what is the
top run DMC song their signature song. I hate to
disappoint people, it's gonna be it's tricky.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
It's when the smoke clears. Wow.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
But say with September, it was supposed to be Shining Star.
It was supposed to be was this tricky, right? But
for some reason it's tricky.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
They're running them. Ever tell you that I just recently
found this one out. But that run said Larry Smith
tried to make planet and that's how it's like that
came along. He makes sense. He's trying to make a
planet rock, right, So all right, here's the kick, the
big boom boom boom right. I always had the theory,

(01:00:14):
and I've known these guys forever, right, But I'm asking
studio questions two years ago and we all got together
for Hip Hop fifty right, So I'm like saying, what
brought the big beat sound to the first time I
heard it's like that woom whoa, whoa whoa and also
sucking them seas boom bom bomb right, groundbreaking sound? I said,

(01:00:37):
was it soul sonic force looking for the perfect beat
when we were all looking for the perfect beat, and
finally they go beat this boom bomb ba bomb and
off the Baker made it kind of big. Did that
do anything to you? And Larry and Run said yeah,
because when we did action all over again, they said,
why don't we throw our whole joint like that? Right? Right?

(01:01:01):
Oh shit, right, you're right. I'm conscious, Yo, man, you
know what I did? I punched Run so hard on
the chest. Right, He's like, yo, brokilling, I said, it
was sitting in my head for so long. Man. That
what made them go from and then from after that,
like Trevor Horn and all those guys tried to do that.
It's like Arthur Baker one. They because we were looking

(01:01:24):
for the perfect beat, and the perfect beat wasn't it
except for one little little breakdown. I'm like, okay, this
is what this is what we're getting. When Joey and
them went like next to next year, they said okay,
and Joey said, yo, man, just throw that whole joint
in that boom boom boom. And that's how they came

(01:01:46):
up with it like that. That's how they came up
with those big beats. Man. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Well, my whole point was terdom to me. I know,
fight the power is supposed to be the signature song.
I think Rebel without a Pause is the song that
some can say saved you, established you, you know, and
bring the noise to me is a miracle because very
rarely will you find a follow up song that literally

(01:02:26):
could match or surpass. I don't think once I remember
without a pause. I just thought like, Okay, this is
the one song that you guys get one time to
change our lives.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
That's how it is, one person, and that's what The
next song that we recorded after that was Don't Believe
the Hype, which I felt was a purposeful like, let's
set like, here's the letter to the fastball, like, yo,
you're not you're getting an ephis like and when we
tried the but that was smart though, well we because
it let us down a little bit. You can't repeat that.

(01:02:57):
I mean listen, when Hank had the master and we
had acetate, we gave it the Chuck chill out man.
By the time I got back down to the car,
Chuck had put it on the radio. Man. It's like, yo, man.
When that was when that was mastered, that's what I
was like, yoo, who could die them? All? That record
got a life of its own. It's gone no matter what,

(01:03:18):
and there's nothing can stop that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
How many records did you guys go through before you
settled on the most unlikely place, which is chub Rock's
rock and roll Dude.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
I didn't even know rock and roll dude existed. I
remember because we would do a thing with fredman Neale
and Select Records, and I remember Fredmanale telling true mathematics.
Yeah yeah, okay, he's telling me and he said this
is this is like the Chubby Check of hip hop.
And he tells her about tub Rock, who later on

(01:03:53):
does probably one of the most public relations thoughtful so
human resource songs ever. Would treat him right because the
most of all time, yeah, all the time, it's like
artist ship. Matter of fact, before you start your career,
listen to Chubb Rock, and I think a whole lot
of people might have not gotten shot robbed notes. I

(01:04:17):
took notes such a blessing us.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
But before he really got big, I didn't know about
that first record.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I did not that record terminated and
found that part rock and roll dude, and he used
it because Norman says, okay, we're making sort of like
bring the noise, like a rock type record maybe and
First of all, we're working to the early morning, like
like Pete Rock says on on runs record, Yeah, so

(01:04:46):
we're sleeping and he's doing this and it sounded like
gibberish and it was like nah, man, it was like
number one. That record was like a Frankenstein construction. Anyway,
it was like we are we will all with this.
And I think Hank took the or one of us
took Eric took out the base on the scratch and

(01:05:06):
made all the sense in the world. Wow, that's how
it wound up. Yeah, because the base was conflicting with
the other stuff and it was just like jumbled, and
we took the base out and it was like glass
and it became a signature for Norman for years to come.
Where is truth Manics? By the way, who was truth Mathematics?
He's a great artist or writer named Kenny Spam. And

(01:05:30):
I would give the names right because I would be
the pretty much giving you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
The So you named leaders of the New School young
Black Teenagers, son of Berserk.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
If I didn't name it, then Hank would name it,
and we're just like, it's got to be better. And
then I would make logos for artists too, because I'm like,
you're going to come through here. You're going to have
an identity when you leave. You coming in here with talent,
but your talent developing the skill. You gotta have something
to go out there, even long Allen, it's got to

(01:05:58):
be us against the world, So you gotta show like
you got something. It really ain't got a long stone
in the throat now, because it ain't like it was
five years earlier where you had to go up against
Mo d and all all those those are super human
hip hop gods. These guys are right here in Queens.
They ten fifteen minutes away. This ship is reachable. So

(01:06:20):
True Math was Kenny Spam. We're like, well, listen, if
you take this name True Mathematics, and I would look
in Ebony and I saw this guy True Mathematics, who
coincidentally later on became known as hok Islam. That's how
you named him. The name True Mathematics was dope because
you know, it wasn't far off. Everybody was familiar with

(01:06:43):
five per centers and no, hell no, this kid where teens.
It was Kenny Spam. Okay, it was like we went
for Spam. Ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Always make him sound like he's talking through the CB.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
We had to figure out something that wouldn't give him
a style, you know, as as a rapper. Though for
the money was my shit.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
I love the shit out this long, all right, because
we look at you kind of in superhero mode and
always asking about your career or whatever. I mean, you
revealing about you roller skating was the most human Chuck
d story I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Backwards, these are ron backwards in roller skate back back then.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
Yeah, so I'm still trying to get that out. Look,
I once went rollerskating with Prince.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
We did. Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
He called me at eleven pm. Prince, his the ex wife,
Larry Graham, Tina Graham, Eddie Murphy, Nicole Murphy, me and
my ex girlfriend at the time, eight of us in Glendale.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Okay, what did they shut it down? This was dude.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
It was like one in the morning and Prince walks
in and pulls out a briefcase Paul Fiction style, opens
it and the ship is and the first thing he said,
now this is like two thousand and five, He's like,
put your phone away, like social media doesn't exist yet,
Twitter doesn't exist, none of this thing. I had a
palm pilot. I was like, what do you teachs No,

(01:08:12):
I don't want to see this on the internet. I'm like,
see what? And then he pulls out these translucent skates.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
That light.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
And there's a Xana do effect to the ship where
like the more it's on wood. I don't know if
you've ever been to the Glen Tell roller Ring, but
like the sparks of the wheel are also having friction on.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
The like it's literally a xanag. Me and Eddie Murphy
literally like we can't believe we're seeing this right now.
Like literally.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Eddie and I talked about this ten years later. I said, Yo,
you remember the night we went roller skate with Prince.
He says, Yo, you didn't hear the after you left.
And then this is when Prince was heavy on his
Jovah's Witness thing. He's like at one point Prince like
jumped and then backwards and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
Said Edie Murphy, when you're going to come to Kingdom
Hall with me? And then literally like just literally went
the hip surgery like a year later. Exactly wasn't the
dancing in the splits, it was that roller skating.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
No, it was he fell off a piano and like
a lank City and damaged his back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
All right, My.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Final question is Steve, last meal on the earth? What
would it be? Last meal? Yes, I'm asking human questions.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
It would probably be fish that when it came down
to fish, right, I always thought that Rock Kim's line
was foreign to me back then, and I ended up
being a good fish either.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I mean everyone got to have the fish sandwich like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Yeah, but you know, yeah, yeah, okay, maybe that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Everyone knows like a good When you get sixty five, man,
you were really getting into that area.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
What you better not have? So even at the last meal,
so you know what, avocados have jumped on me in
the last ten years, this count for you. Yeah, and
having an avocado tree is really good. All right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
If not the leader of one of the greatest groups
of all time, what would you have been?

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Oh, illustrator, no, hands down and a kick ass one too.
I am where you're you're I've worked with these with
the guys, I mean what you call freestyle freelance. So yeah,
I don't know anybody looking over my shoulder, and I'm
pretty much an abstract illustrator like I am an MC.

(01:10:31):
I could be a fine artist you are if I
want to, But I also like to be It's a
difference between being fine artists, graphic artists, illustrator quick at it.
And during the pandemic, I was able to work on
my speed skills.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Okay, yeah during prime PE. Uh your your first ten
years a pe? What three figures had you starstruck?

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Like autographs living at the time, Yeah, like in your
in your your travels, like what three figures? Was like,
holy shit, I'm meeting I mean, I mean because I've
come across a lot of people from mister Farrakhan and
in that whole circle in Reverend Jackson, and I met
James Brown once but never really met him. Did he

(01:11:23):
know you were? Yeah? But let me this is this
is I'll be short. At the turn of the century,
I think I was giving Prince All Award. I forgot
what the name of this award show was. And so
it was out here somewhere and I was backstage and
as I was getting ready to go on the stage
and present Princess Award and that was a crazy backstage night. True.

(01:11:45):
I leave and I go to the green area and
I see this guy turned around. He had like a
suit and hair, and I was like, and I knew
that all my James James Brown Studies. I was, well, well,
if it is him, you better have mister in front
of that name mister Brown, right And I tapped him
on the shoulder and he turned around. Hey, how you doing,

(01:12:08):
mister Brown? My name is Chuck and Chuck Dee from
public to me and anyone? Oh, And I said, can
you hold it right there? And I this is before
cameras right right right? Anybody got camera? Anybody can camera.
I finally get somebody's camera. Give back to that area.
He's on stage with Genuine. Say what Yeah, he's on

(01:12:31):
stage with Genuine. So I'm going around on it. I'm
trying to catch him. Maybe leave stage left. So I
get to stage left real quick with the camera right
and I'm gonna get him when he comes off or whatever.
And I'm with you, who am I talking to? I'm
talking to Denzel. So so we're waiting. We're waiting. He
leaves stage right. I run around. He's out of there.

(01:12:52):
Only time meet James Brown and he was excited. Damn well, at.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Least you got that out of him. At least you
got that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Hoh. I'm like, hold it right there, came back nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
What was the first concert you ever attended?

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
Did I even attended and bought with my own money? Yes?
Madison Square Garden, nineteen seventy eight, October Right, O Jay's,
Commodore's Brothers Johnson, What on line? Who who went on
last brother? Johnson's opened up? Oh, Jay's closed brother, Commodo's

(01:13:28):
closed it out? Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Is there a song that makes you cry for no reason?
Either prompts a memory or man, it minds me of
Big Mama, or just is there a song that makes
you emotional.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
For no reason? My Girl Temptations, your Mommy and my
Daughter's nice? Nice?

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
What song are you ashamed to say that you actually like?

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Ashamed?

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Do you know the worst of Macarena or something?

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Or like, I'm never ashamed of any song I like?
Or Rick Astley's never going to give you up? But no, no,
no body. Every time I think about like my forward Road,
you know, I always think, I don't think I'm ashamed
of it, like running on empty Jackson Brown, that's respectable, Yes,
I got respectful. But there's gotta be a song in
there that like I have a problem, you know what

(01:14:15):
my problem is? Or I can't turn songs off in
my head? How do you do that. I have a song.
I have a song really seriously playing in my head
for like the last eight weeks and I can't get
it out and I want it out of my head.
What song is it? I just forgot.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
What shore do you hate doing around the house today
that I hate doing?

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
Oh? Man, let me tell you Number one, don't mess
with electric work. If you ain't electrician, don't touch nothing.
And I really the actual word no, no, no, I
mean I always knew that. I like, I'm not trying. Look,
when you get to a point, you better pay people
who are experts at what they do and stop playing around. Man.

(01:15:13):
You know, I will drag the you know, the garbage
cans out. I would. I would wash my own dishes,
although sometimes to come to my house and look at
my dishes that I washed. I had eye surgery like
six times or like the last two years, right, and
had cataract surgery and the eye and all that. So

(01:15:36):
I'm not one of those og unks and aunties that
kind of like, yeah, you wash the dishes, but you
kind of like didn't wash them, right, I think I do.
I just don't use a dish washer team. So I
mean mistakes with me. Yeah, so chores. I think when
you get somebody just doing like gardening and hedge clipping.

(01:15:59):
One thing I know when I was a kid. I
grew up, you know, in a house on Long Island,
and we had kind of like a big plot of
land for our town. And one thing I said I
would not do the rest of my life is bag
leaves or rake them. Can I say the words fuck that? Yes,
bag leaves or rakingly because you get them right in
that area. I had callouses, scars, cuts all up it

(01:16:23):
because of raking and all that. I totally said when
I turned twenty one, I'm never raking again. And my
brother will be like, all right, you guys, go rake
it right, and he find a way that just leave
halfway through and I gotta rake it, bag it take
oh man, I don't like the end of fall. I
don't like winter time. You know, I got to deal
with them, but you know, seriously, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
Second and last question, who is your longest friendship?

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Longest friendship? That's kind of different at sixty five because
you pick up where you left off. So the guys
I grew up with as sports fans, I haven't been
around them in a long time. The people in music,
they kind of we pick up where we left off.
Guys like Bill Stephanie is like, okay, I met Bill

(01:17:09):
as a college. We all pick up where we left off.
I could go see Dre Harry Allen. You know it's
weird half of that. So I Hank the other day,
Keith so in those. But the whole key is that
when you're moving, you know, to pick up where you
left off. Man, you got to pick up where you
left off because you got to allow people to be themselves.

(01:17:32):
And I come from a.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Group, so at the top of the group, and you,
I guess you know this too, at the top of
the group, but you do a lot of bottom rolls
because you cannot be the guy that everybody is going
to like.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Hey, let's see it. No, so Flavor, don't mean if
Flavor is not like that, bags come off off of
the truck. I'll get my bag, my help somebody. Flavor's
moving right on to the tell as he should, though,
So one of us got to be that guy, right.
He is that guy, and by him being that guy
allows me to be the guy I am, which is okay,

(01:18:10):
I will diplomatically hear you out give a discussion see
if this works. But I really really appreciate the way
Flavor has really evolved. Well, he's at nine, like he's
always revolving. He's sixties. Like yes, when people count Flavor out,
Flavor is going to come back even harder than ever.

(01:18:33):
He is the poster child for what the attention spans
of now and the outer sight out of mind or
evaporating thought of. He is the poster child. But I
know in the relationship with him, he in his sixties
has gone in the areas I've never seen him before.

(01:18:56):
He's gone in the areas of being a guy in charge,
making sure he's on point. He'll go here, there, whatever
to me. You see the difference. I see it, and
I welcome it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
I love this.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
I love it because I tell you, being that mister
everything everywhere man for so many years, I look at
sixty five is like, yeah, I did my time in
that and now yeah I might get a little bit
uncle you know, you on my lawn type of thing.
But I enjoyed my space that I'm in now. But
I said, in order for pe to do things, I

(01:19:29):
told him, I said, especially after the pandemic, I said,
you're gonna have to be that guy because I don't
really have it to that full tilt anymore, because where
I've already had it, I'm already doing it in other areas.
So when we come together, we tell we tell each
other that I don't know if I'm making your or
your Keith or I'm Keith sometimes when you're mixed. But
you know what, when we come together, it's automatic, you know,

(01:19:53):
and every other part fits in, like like the line
up today is gonna work. When I played with Terminator
and Griff in a minute, I play with them in
a minute. But it's also got to agree with the
people who are there, gotcha. You can't move people out.
Labor has to agree. So I'm the type of person
that not only have I had an open door policy,

(01:20:17):
but half sixty five man, Thomas Short, I got no door.
Damn no door policy. That's a mic drop. All right,
I will let.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
You go because your daughter is going to kill me
right now. I thank you for doing this for me,
doing the solid the great Chuck D.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
I'll catch me again. May let me let me hey
to show me over, Yeah right, chuck me, packing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Us up, yeah, kicking us out, Chuck D. Thank you
very much. We got to do this again because I
swear got seven hours more questions.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Man, let me tell you, man, when I tell people
about you all the time, you're my hero. I felt
that in the soil of like way without actually you know,
going beyond you know, myself on this. I thought like
when you came along in the industry, I felt that
there was somebody to pass the bation too that would
even maximize anything that I did, because you know, back

(01:21:12):
in the agies and nineties, they had to ask questions
for rap. We put together this documentary, we're doing this thing,
and let's go call Chuck and it's like, wow, you know, okay,
all right, you feel like a lone spokesperson. Oh god,
I mean you know, yeah, you're dealing with times and
all that, and you seem to understand. And I said, yo, man,
it's got to be somebody else, because after a while

(01:21:34):
you got wise sparkling in your head, and then you
came along, and then I'm like looking for an outside.
You have to say, oh, thank God for quests, love, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
I literally quit my job by a side to you
a nation of millions to do what I do now,
And I thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
Man, Thank you, catch up the crew. I said hello,
I will you know? And and and that super genius
computer friend of yours he's coming with some ship man.
All right, all right, get out of here, yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
Quest Left Show is hosted by Me Mirror, Questlove Thompson.
Executive producers are Sean g Brian Colvin and Me. Produced
by Britney Benjamin and Jacob Payne. Produced for iHeart by
Noel Brown, Edited by Alex Conwoman. iHeart Video support by

(01:22:29):
Mark Canton, Logo's graphics and animation by Nick Ploe. Additional
support by Lance Holman. Special thanks to Kathy Brown. Special
thanks to Sugar Steve Mandel. Please subscribe, pain review and
share a Quest Left Show.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Wherever you stream your podcast, make sure you follow us
on socials. That's at q l S.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Got hundreds and hundreds of q episodes, including the Question
of Supreme Shows and our podcast archives.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Question of Shows. The production of iHeart Radio

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Laiya St. Clair

Questlove

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