January 28, 2026 • 58 mins
Questlove sits down with Sonic Youth co-founder and avant-garde icon Kim Gordon for a candid, funny, and surprisingly vulnerable conversation about imposter syndrome, the Downtown/No Wave era, and how a visual artist became a profoundly influential bassist, singer, and producer. Kim talks about embracing spontaneity in the studio, discovering dissonance alongside Public Enemy at Greene Street Studios, accidentally launching her solo career with producer Justin Raisen, and navigating motherhood. She also reflects on recently updating her memoir and her role in the film Chronology of Water. One of music’s enduring arbiters of cool joins The Questlove Show—take heed.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Request Left show is a production of iHeart radio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Ladies and gentlemen, I cannot lie to you and say
that our guest today has had some sort of hand
and luring my very band to a certain label called
GEFN DGC, even long before we met. As the co
founder of the legendary band Sonic Youth, our guests has
(00:43):
crafted a movement for more than four decades, inspiring anyone
worth their grain of salt of greatness. Name them Nirvana's
Magic Pumpkins, Pixie's Pavement, Dinosaur Jr. Pro Jam, Whole Radiohead Sugar.
I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
I mean this is the definition of when you hear
(01:05):
people say like your artist's favorite or that meta rabbit hole.
Our guests and bodies that today she said countless of
I be here all day. We even just talk about
the collaborations, always pushing the boundaries of creativity and staying fresh.
An architect of patron, saint of many movements, pioneer of
(01:25):
the downtown scene. Are you embarrassed when we come with
way too many superlatives like.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
She's long for the daylight? Ladies and gentlemen, you.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Can check out the imposter syndrome.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
For sure, I get the coolest bass player ever. Thank
you Kem Gordon for coming to the Quest Left Show.
Appreciate it. How WI great to see you. All right.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, that's what I want to start with because I
know that oftentimes there's the battle the idea of you
versus what you feel is the authentic you. So to
break the ice, I always wanted to ask you this,
Can you tell me three things that you think are
uncool about you?
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well? I guess mostly like I don't think I'm cool,
like I do battle like this kind of feeling of
awkwardness to some extent, you know, unless I'm in a
flow of working or doing something. You know, like I
(02:24):
have a basket of different socks that I wish I
could just get rid of and start over.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I don't know, you know what, Actually, it's funny you
mentioned that I kind of did that last week. I
don't know why I decided to just have a sea
change of all my T shirts, mind to wear my socks.
I decided getting rid of whatever has collectively like just
been there for the last decade and a half and
just start over fresh. I don't know if that's my
(02:56):
version of just getting a new haircut. I'm gonna change
mind to where it started.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Actually, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I probably met you in the most ideal way whatsoever.
So when you walk in a room, do you feel
sort of self conscious because you know that there's an
expected cool factor that we've tagged on you? Or do
you just feel like you just blend in and no
one knows that you've walked in?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I pretty much don't think anyone's gonna know who I am.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Okay, so am I allowed to say where we first met?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Where we were at a.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
New Year's e party at uh Natasha, right Natasha's house.
It was so spot on and cliche that I was like, yeah,
of course, Kim Gordon just walks into a Neyear's party
inside in Natasha's house and is the coolest person in
the room. Literally, like seven of us like just hushed
(03:55):
down and then almost felt like our pressure was getting
to you because I wanted to say something to you,
but then I was like, no, she's probably in her
head right now, so I didn't say it.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But then eventually I did talk to you.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
But do you often feel that we're talking like geeking
out over you?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Or just no?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I mean honestly, like, I think that's that's the last
thing I think, okay, And I'm kind of a shy person,
so people maybe expect me to be different, so they
think I'm cool because well, I'm not saying a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Can I ask you, what's the best compliment you've ever
received that you actually received it without like the imposter
syndrome like sort of ducking out.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I know someone said
from my last record that I was a genre on
to myself, which I guess I relate to that, okay,
because I don't really like to think in terms of
music genres or anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, I was going to ask later, when you create,
are you sort of of the moment you don't know
what's going to happen the second that you whatever you
deemed your studio home base, do you know what's going
to happen? Or are you a person that has to
like pre plant way ahead of time?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And then no, I'd.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Like spontaneity and improvisation a lot. So I mean when
I work with Justin, like, he'll send me some you know,
beats and things, and I'll figure out what it is
I feel drawn to and then you know, kind of
write some lyrics. But then when I go in and
put guitar down to make it kind of messier. You know,
(05:43):
it's like having a white canvas, like you can't it's
hard to paint on a white canvas.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You have to right anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And then I'll but I'll tend to not really know
exactly where things are going to fall. And then sometimes
I'll just think, will just come out of my mouth,
you know, Okay, what the hell is that?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Can you tell me?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
What are the things that you did in the first
twenty minutes of your day today?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Well, I guess I looked at my stupid phone. Okay,
I'm saying it. A friends my galleries, and so I
went down on made tea and I talked to her.
She just came back from the Miami Yard for her and.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Okay, all right, this is rather random non sequitor. But
I'll just ask what is the bravest thing that you
think you've ever done?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
That's a tough one. I guess the bravest thing maybe
was deciding to become pregnant and have a baby. It's
sort of like a world of unknown.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I want advice on that. I want advice on that
because of all the members of the roots, I'm the one.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
That's childless still, okay, because I still.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Think in terms of like, ah, this will slow me down.
Oh this has slowed me down. But I'll also say
that me coming to grips with that level of vulnerability,
you know, I'm a very calculated or if I fail,
I need to perfect this verse.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know, we're the manual instructions for this, and I
feel like that's one of the things where you just
have to fuck it, like just let it happen. Yeah,
right now, I'm probably as close as I've ever been
to just like what else is left?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Dog, you did everything, Like it's not going to get
more perfect than this.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
What was that feeling like really just giving in?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Because I'm actually asking from an advice standpoint, how do
you allow yourself the vulnerability to accept that type of love?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I don't know. I mean, it's just like, you know,
first of all, you you only live once that we know,
so I don't know. I just felt like, oh, there's
just like a whole set of experiences and there's something
about when you have someone to take care of that's
really dependent on you. It takes you out of your head,
(08:03):
you know, in a nice way, and it's kind of
you know, it's funend I do. I mean, yes, obviously,
of course I highly recommend it. I'm not sure I
recommend having more than one. I only had one. But
I mean, you know, if you're like travel of you know,
(08:27):
you work a lot, you know, it's difficult. I think
it's harder for women because as equal as your relationship
can be, it's still kind of a lot falls to
the the mama somehow, you know, scheduling, Like you have
a certain urgency towards your when your baby cries because
(08:51):
it's hungry, Like you just want that's to stop, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Can you still be creative and balance? I think that's
the thing that I fear the most. Like I'm so
detail oriented that I almost feel as though I have to.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
That's a bad metaphor to you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I always use the term throw the baby out with
the bath water, but meaning just in terms of of
making sure that I'm one hundred percent present. Yeah, And
I just always figured you can't serve two gods in
the way that creativity is to me, for like music
and fulfilming, all those things that I spend way too
(09:34):
many hours doing that. But this is the closest I've
ever been to just.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it is a
big change, but you still manage to do everything pretty much,
you know, you just have to be more efficient, like
you have different priorities, I suppose, and I don't know.
My daughter's thirty one now, like you never really stop
worrying about your child. I have to say, yeah, that's difficult,
(10:05):
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, do you remember the very first creative project that
you've ever done in life?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
When I was in kindergarten, I went to this lab
school at UCLA where you sort of learned by doing.
And I mean in kindergarten, right, you don't do that much.
But we made clay elephants, like I learned the system,
like I was good with my hands, I guess, And
then so I guess that was my first creative Then
(10:35):
when I went to first grade, they had me go
back and teach the kindergarteners how to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So obviously your love for visual arts was early in
this sort.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Of yeah informed, Yeah, it basically.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Just sounds cliche, but yeah, I always just wanted to
be an artist. Gotcha, I just fell into playing music.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So all right, Well, for me, I you know, gun
to my head, I probably would say I'm a DJ
more than anything. And maybe I forged this career in
a band so I could make money so I could
buy more records to be a DJ.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
So but for you, you still you feel as though the.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I don't know, like visual arts or tangible arts or
that that's your true first love, like as a creator.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, okay, I mean I kind of think of myself
it's hard to explain, but as an artist first, like
an artist who makes music or an artist who writes.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, artists first.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think of myself as just It's
not exactly the same as just being a creative I
just I think spatially in a way.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
What's the transferable creative talent that you have that the
world doesn't know about? Like you play basketball? Are you
a gamer? What's your cooking skills?
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Like? I don't know I am a good cook? I
don't know. I just I think I have a good
special sense.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That's a talent in terms of like functional and energy
in a room.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And yeah, I think what I like about playing music
in a way is like I was kind of wanted
to be a dancer at what point in my life?
And uh, I know, it's just there's a lot of
moving around on the stage, you know, and like you
have a sense of how you can bring something different
(12:35):
to what would be an expected rock show or something
by how you move and where you move and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
All right, So in your position in a band, an
iconic band, who's your north star? As a bass player,
who's in your mind? You're vicariously living through? Like I know,
I see the flea effect now with kids, were like
(13:06):
all of a sudden, you have a bunch of these
balancy kind of I'm like, okay, I know what you
grew up with.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
But for you, who was your north star?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I actually liked a bass player of in DNA, this
guy Tim Wright.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
He used to play in his socks and he kind
of used a guitar like the way held he almost
held it sideways.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Okay, and he would turn it's a weapon turn a lot.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Okay, But I don't play bass so much anymore, like
I've been. I haven't played bass since the last Sonic
Youth gig.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Okay, but what was that also.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
But he was he was. He definitely inspired me.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, gotcha and Sid Vicious, right of course?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Of course, what are the first three records that you
remember purchasing?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Well, there's it's probably like a Beatles single, okay, but
I don't remember which one. Like I used to walk
up to the record store I lived in West LA
and you know, ask is what's it's the new single out?
You know? Okay, it's a new Beatles single out.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So Beatles forty five would.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Be one of them.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, I had a Roy Orbison single. I think pretty Women.
I had a Rolling Stones record, okay, like the first one. Maybe.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Well let me ask what three records that you own?
Do you think that we would be shocked that you
listen to Tusk?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I remember the day that Tusk came out, and it
was like a marching band song, right, like they used
marching band drums in the title track.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And it was a double album. I remember them, not
like is it a triple It.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Was a double album, but I remember them. It came
out with I was nine, right, so I don't have
like real time memories, but I remember them panning the
shit out that record.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So yeah, people hated that record.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So do you gravitate towards what we're not supposed to?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Like, Well, that's funny. I mean I didn't actually get
into that record to like two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
But did you get into it because everyone else didn't
like it?
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Well, I don't know, Like it's funny. My friend Bill Nace,
who have this guitar improvtu I would. I don't know
whether he just found it like in our shelf and
he started playing it. We both just became obsessed with
it and listened to it endlessly, And I have to
say it's like the worst cover art ever, right, which
(15:50):
I think was super expensive and yeah, way over budget
the whole thing. But I don't know, is something about
that record it reminds me I need to go home
and play I've heard it in a while now.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
For me, I think that I'm curious about departure records.
When I first started teaching at NYU, I'm always interested
in the psychological angle, Like Okay, sly Stone has.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
That's a great documentary. By the way, Oh thank you
both of your documentaries.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, like Slide had such pop success with stand that,
why does he do this dark ass record or why
would Prince follow up Purple Range with Around the World
on the Day? What did Fleetwood Macfield after the rise
of rumors, like, you know, to not ruin it, but
(16:44):
not say you're scared so that you know this departure,
I'm in a backfire for the Beatles, like Sergeant Peppers
was hey, let's do show tunes and timpan Alley and
it backfired. Yeah, So I'm always curious that when a
band gets to that place where they're so big, do
they follow up?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I know this is a weird take.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I admire Michael Jackson for trying to even think that
he could top thriller like, oh, forty million, I'm gonna
try one hundred million, which, yes, the quantity.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Of it all is what. I also feel.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Michael Jackson away literally and air quotes, but I actually
admire the balls for him to actually say, now, I'm
not going to do the cover record, or let me
do my jazz record or my Joni Mitchell FaZe like
whatever that is.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So that'd be interesting, right, What is your all time
favorite food?
Speaker 4 (17:51):
I don't know, like I like so many so much.
I like, like maybe sobaz Okay, you know, I love
French food too, you know, actually soup to poison last night.
It was delicious, okay, but I there was something about
so much to me that's so kind of pure okay
and delicious.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Gotcha. What's the last thing that you made for yourself?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
It was not probably roast chicken?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay. Yeah, So keeping with the fringe, fancy, what's your
all time favorite cereal?
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Paleo Grinella him erewhon.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, even the way you sold it to me was
like cool?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Really, I mean I don't really eat cereal?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
You educated Cereal? I get it.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
There's yeah, yeah, I don't know. I just I basically
don't feel like I've eaten anything if I have a Cereal?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Okay, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
What TV show best describes your childhood, oh man? Or
what TV show did you ever fantasize being a part.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Of I loved Mister ed Talking Horse?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
That was your favorite?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
It was one of my favorites. Yeah, that in seventy
seven Sunset strip? When is that older?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Like?
Speaker 4 (19:19):
In fact, I would drive down Sunset trying to find
the spot where.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
The opening yeah the opening was?
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Yeah? Yeah, where's words? Kookie or whatever his name is?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Do you binge watch anything on television now, like, have
you adapted to streaming culture?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I what's your favorite ure? Well?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
I really enjoyed Line of Duty.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Okay, it's a.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
BBC cop show about police corruption. I like all those
shows about police corruption and were.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
You a Wirehead?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
The Wire? I mean yeah, those those are the classic shows,
you know, got It, Got the Wires? Maybe my all
time favorite show, Gotcha?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
In your childhood bedroom the posters ever adorn your wall?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Who adorned your wall in your childhood bedroom?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I think Dylan probably?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Okay, yeah, what era Dylan are you most loyal to?
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Oh? Only the early stuff. I actually don't really like
anything after nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
All right, so you're you're not a self portrait. I
came into Dylan weird. My parents became the way that,
like Reagan's Christian America just washed over the black community.
My introduction to Dylan was Christian Dylan.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Oh wow, yeah, I don't even know if I know
Christian Dylan.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Oh god, yeah, Like to this day, I'm the only
when I told him, like, when you're going to wake
up like his on the yellow slow train coming like
I told him that, and he just looked at me,
like I'm so sorry, Wow, Well, yeah, I started with
(21:11):
his three Christian awn period and I think what I
think Infidels broke that in eighty three. But I always
get into the wrong rock album for every band, Like
you know, you asked eight year old me, I'll be like, yeah,
man Satanam Majesty's requests, it's cool, right, was like yeah, no,
(21:36):
But I just always as a cool cover. Yes, there
you go, that's there, that's their one saving grace. But
you know, as I got older, then, of course there
were people that set me straight.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
But yeah, I picked.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I had an older brother too. He sort of make
fun of me, like you don't know what he's talking about. Really,
it's like, who does know what Dylan was actually talk
came about?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Were you the family black Sheep in terms of like
your tastes.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
And no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Oh they were. There were more that were.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, my brother was super eccentric person who later became schizophrenic,
but and he was always getting into trouble.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Okay, So.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
I was a goody goody one.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Do you remember the first concert you ever attended?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Actually, the first concert I ever went to was in
Hong Kong when I was living there, when I was twelve.
It was Herman's Hermit's.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
On an army base or no, it was my dad.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Was a professor ATLA and he took some students there
to start a study program at the college Chinese University,
and they came while we were there and played. Yeah,
they did a concert.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
I now know that when you do worldwide like, people were.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Somewhat different now, but yeah, I know that back then, like,
concerts were very different in terms.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Of I mean, I actually don't remember, okay very much.
I remember like in the the hotel bars there that
sort of pretty young Chinese girls would wear boufont dresses
and play beetle covers.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Okay, okay, So this is different than the first records
you owned because CD culture came later. Do you remember
the very first CD that you purchased?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Ah? No, thank you. CDs are just like you know,
they might have been things we blagged from the record
label or something, you know, right.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh yes, I was going to say, oh wait a minute,
so I asked, we sad this question, So I got
to ask you this question. Another main reason why there's
so much reverence and respect for you guys is simply
because of the insane amount of times that Sonic Youth
Records have fed the roots in terms of okay, and
but by you saying what you said, I know that
(24:11):
this isn't just something that's unique to me, which is
you always visit the record label, You go into the
supply closet, you take all the CDs right, and then
you go to the village and sell them the bleaker
bobs and then you know, Weezer said that they too
lived off of the Blue Album and Piggerton by selling
(24:34):
their own CDs too.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Oh that's funny. I mean we when we first signed
to Geffen or we took a bunch of stuff like
like the guns and roses, welcome mat It's like Madonna
candles and.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
The shame. I felt like, hey, what's that over there?
And like you like the pink panthers.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Like us, you know, like the trench coat with three
people stacked on top of each other, Like that's us.
Like take your shit out of the studio just to
get money on Fridays.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, I'll say, ah, ecstasy, Sonic Youth.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Just I can't believe that we influenced your decision to
signed a gun.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I had a manager that so something happened like around
ninety to ninety three where he realized that because of
us being a band, that that opened more doors than
like there was no hip hop whatsoever really in Philly
(25:44):
except for like specialized what about Yeah, But he would
have to play rap shows and we got like the
last days of like Nirvana being the household secret, like
they play j C. Dobbs maybe a month before we
played j C.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So I think that my manager figured out a way
that by ninety three ninety four, certain hip hop groups
could sort of fit on the alternative stages, so like
us doing Lollapalooza or anything with Jay's Addiction or anything
with like just that first, Like you guys are probably
(26:29):
the only guys that we didn't open for, but pretty
much a big.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Part of our growing as a group.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Number one, whenever Wu Tang would mess up, we'd be
the band of the call, Hey Wu ta claim's not
going to make it next week to da da Da
da da ke you guys feeling, So that was like
half of it, and then the other half would just
be us being the open act, like like Cypress Hill
and public Andomy really had to pay almost a tiny
(27:00):
credibility price because the rule was rap groups should only
be a rap shows only, and if you're not with
if you're opening for you too, if you're selling out,
like right, right, So those guys called major flack and
then around ninety.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Three like no one cared anymore. That's when we arrived
and literally like oh interesting, right when the sea change happened.
Have you ever gone karaoke? Never? You've never gone karaoke?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
No, Okay, to be fair, I've only been twice in
my life, and I think both times we're in Japan.
But I head scratched at people that love karaoke because
it's like, I tell my perform for a living so
and to me, the only enjoyable karaoke is when people
sound horrible. So that would never happen, so you would
(27:51):
never be course whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
To Yeah, I did. I did a song, a cover
song that way for Addicted to Love. You know, they
just have these this booth on Saint Mark's Okay, So
I went there and I did that. And it was
when the band was in the studio making shit up
for the Weddy album, right, And I was kind of
not down with that because it was just three guys
(28:15):
like wasting lime, gotcha? And then I took that and
actually took it back to the studio. We sped it
up a little, and then I went to Macy's and
made a video because I used to have these for
nineteen ninety nine. You could go in and yeah, it
tell us my favorite video. Just so great to like
(28:35):
walk out pay nineteen ninety nine and have a two
camera shoot.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Right. Okay, what song do you love that you think
everybody hates? Of our songs or a vinye song creator?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Jeez, that's a tough question.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Okay, have you ever made a mixtape for someone?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
I did make a mixtape for some actor once.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Okay, remember what was on it?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Sorry?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
All right? If you were to make me a mixtape
with three songs would have to be on it? Having
not really known me, well, I.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Guess I would put a Brigitte Fontaine our ensemble of
I forget the name of the record, but.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Have you of Chicago or yeah, I might own it.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
They did an improv session together, Okay, Okay, noy the
Pink record?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Can I ask what song has the power to make
you cry no matter how many times you hear it?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Instantly? Maybe?
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Uh, Cortes the Killer.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
What is it about it?
Speaker 4 (29:44):
No, yeah, I don't know. It's just like the melody.
It's like what he hits this one, you know something?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Okay, when this gives me to this day and I'm
I'm mad that it's not as accessible. But the Philadelphia
song that Neil Young sings, I know people know the
Streets of Philadelphia by Springsteen for that soundtrack, but when
the credits go up, Neil Young has I mean, you know,
(30:11):
like he has a very heartbreaking sounding like sensitive voice.
But Neil Young singing his version of Philadelphia that has
nothing to do with the Springsteen version it is.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
It is like one of the most heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I have to check it out.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
One time I had to make a funeral mix and
I thought.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
We put me moody sass songs on there, and it
came up and I realized I overdid it, so like
me running back to the ipile.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Like trying to turn something else on.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Okay, So I feel like your Downtown scene you'r Hashtager
quote Downtown scene is well for me. The neo soul
scene was supposed to be where I don't know if
I owned it. I did completely disown it. But for you,
what's one of the biggest myths of the downtown scene
that you always hear that never happened.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Well, you know, in the eighties, especially early eighties, people
from Europe always wanted to come and do articles about
the crossover between the music scene and the art world,
which kind of didn't exist. I mean, it did exist
in the very early eighties, like during the kind of
(31:31):
the height of No Way Fans, and there were a
lot of young artists who you know, were drawn and
kind of part of that scene. But then by the
mid eighties they were kind of just into their careers,
you know, our careers, and and it was so it
(31:53):
wasn't really what people thought it was in terms of
this mecha like it was super bleak in the eighties,
you know. Also, but that part is kind of I
guess I can be nostalgic about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Who coined the term no wave and is that really truly?
Is it possible?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Like is it just rejecting the idea of a title
or is it kind of like you know, in the
filmmaking world, where you know, Dog one ninety five was
supposed to be this like restrictive movement and whatnot, Like,
were there rules to the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
No Wave.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Not really. I mean I think it was kind of
I think it was kind of nihilistic actually, I mean
I some people might disagree with me, but like when
you know, punk was supposed to be this movement that
kind of obviously different fractions, but that destroyed rock, which
(32:55):
it didn't. It was three cord rock and roll. It
was just anti corporate, you know, it was different lyrics
and a different sensibility of of what music was supposed
to be. But No Wave was actually really deconstructed rock,
like you didn't necessarily have. There's a lot of dissonance
(33:19):
and density, and it seems just peculiar to New York,
although Japan was kind of parallel, and Japan they had
art movements that came post to World War Two, right
like no Theater and anyway, it was kind of a
(33:39):
nihilistic attitude, and so it's kind of interesting that that
was pretty much particular to New York. And maybe the
influence of like free jazz and you know, other different
sounds minimalist composition, you know, Lama Young and junk age
(34:02):
and people like that. You know, I think that sort
of contributed to it a bit. But it was also
just a feeling of like, no, this is this song
isn't going to have like a beginning of middle ement,
And to me it was very free music and that's
what inspired me to play music.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Gotcha, are any of the.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Rules that you placed on yourselves for that period still
exists for you?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yeah? Kind of in that the main rule was not
to really learn how to play music, which is kind
of a technique in itself, I realize.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Okay, let's take if I would say the biggest year
for Noise in my opinion, especially I havn't worked at
a record store that year, I would say eighty eight.
Now it's not like I think there was a collective
meeting being had by various genres of music, but really
(35:06):
just this movement starts like how where are you guys
that even in the black music world, Like what Public
Enemy is about to start doing with this aggressive noise sound?
Like for me, like the day that the first song
that they experimented with in which they really tested the
(35:27):
limits of like what the hell is that was when
they released a Rebel without a Pause in the summer
of eighty.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Seven, and it changed my walk.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I almost had a hints in asque disposition in the hood.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Hey guys, how you doing? You know?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And you hear this and it changes you. Yeah, and
I realized, like, oh, this is my first soundtrack to
teenage angst like whatever I feel. But in general, like
what is the genesis of the embracing of dissonance?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And just was there a political anger in the air?
Were you all Yoko Ona fans? Did you discover free
jazz and the sixties? Like what was it? I don't know.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
I mean, I think it was just a very gradual
thing like we you know, like we were influenced by
the NOA Evands, We were influenced by free jazz. We
we were certainly into Public Enemy and kind of related
to their music in terms of density. And you know,
we were recording at the same studio they were. And
(36:37):
this is Chum King No, it was Green Street, Green Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I was about to say, just what was it like
recording at Green Street?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Beg man, Well, it was kind of funny because this
engineer we had had never done guitar music.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Who's your engineer?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
His name was Nick son Sana.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Oh, Nick, yeah, Professor Nick Sonsano.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Okay, we were the first guitar band he ever recorded.
And I don't know really what he thought, but it
was basically I think he understood it in terms of layers,
you know, of sound, just the way he would record
with you know, Public Enemy or Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Professor Nick was one of the when I taught at NYU.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
He's one of the co teachers also long like Nixon,
Sono did the Public Enemy records, like all the Bomb
Squad stuff, Sonic Youth, like all these New York institutional bands.
And then Bob Power also taught there and he's doing
a tropical quest in De la Soul and eventually di'angelo
(37:42):
the roots that.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Stuff and so.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
But Nick told me something mind blowing about just his
lack of experience as an engineer during that time period.
And he informed me that like we almost did no
automation mixing on Public Enemy. All that stuff was pre done, wow,
which if you know their music, you're like, well, this
has to be a post thing, and it's like, no,
(38:07):
we always did it right preven.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
But for you in that time period, was it just
not knowing.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
There were rules or just like purposely like how many
we shouldn't do that or can't do that? Conversations were had.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
I mean not many, you know, probably there were just
discussions about well it shouldn't go into the red or
too far or something.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
I'm not satisfied until it goes in the red.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I don't know, like, uh, I'm not sure. Like he
was just super like agreeable, you know, got it, and
we would try you know, Lee would try things out
that we knew wasn't kinda and about the record but whatever,
you know, like some of it did, you know, But yeah,
I do recall. I think it was that studio where yeah,
(38:58):
there'd be a number of fans on the board during mixing,
you know.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Right, and then you're just figuring out.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
So at the time, are you saying that both bands
were making like you were making Daydream Nation and in the.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Other room they were in the the newer room, you know,
the I think it was an automated board. Actually, yeah,
some kind of.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So did you guys old board did you realize that
you had two Nation albums in common at the time
when you were making a.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
Little bad I mean that's where like, you know, we
did cool thing and I asked Chuck if he would
come and do this like he did kind of the
most cliche thing right, but it was perfect, you know. Okay,
but I just also remember uh waiting waiting for play,
if you know, everyone waiting for Flay to come and
(39:54):
then for like days or something, and then eventually you'd
hear like his floppy feet going down.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I always wanted to know when the Geffen Records deal happened, like,
was there ever.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
A worry of like being on a.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Major at the time, like you guys being on there
was the cool factor. It was just like, oh, it's Geffen.
It's cool because that's where they land, so it can't
be that bad. But at the time, there was no
you know, you guys had Donna Summer and Elton John.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Yeah, I mean there was you know, like friends of ours,
like or not friends, but Peers Whoskerdoo had signed to
a major and replacements, and I don't know, I guess
we figured like we were just always frustrated at our
lack of distribution, so we that's one reason why we
did it, you know. And we were just like, well,
(41:05):
we've been together for ten years, so if it doesn't work,
fuck it. Yeah, okay, Yeah, And it was a struggle
for sure.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So one of the biggest misperceptions about my band is
because credibility was a major key factor for us critical
claim credibility. Yeah, there was also this sort of what
I will say, a kind of a false narrative, which
(41:35):
was basically that, oh, well, you guys don't care about success.
Like they were always like, yeah, I like you guys
because you know, you do what you want to do
and the label supports what you want to do. And
I wish I could make music like you guys do.
And I'm like, well, it's not like we're sun raw.
This is we don't know how to write a good course.
So like no one told us that we should only
(41:58):
write sixteen bar and an easy course.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Like so it's almost like I.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Didn't know how to write accessible music and so but
we basically got tagged with like, oh, well, we like
you guys because you don't care about success. Okay, So
in eighty seven eighty eight, what does making it look
like to you? Is it a this one job is
(42:25):
all I need to do to live in this apartment
and pay all these bills? Or were you fine with
a life where Okay, I play my band and sometimes,
like the amount of people I've interviewed here and didn't
know that.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
You know, Millie Jackson's telling me that she would gig.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
On the weekends, but then she used to work in
the garment district from and this is with like Platinum Records.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Yeah, so for you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
What does making it look like, especially when you're tagged
with this credibility.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
But we kind of had part time jobs, or at
least one of us did. But the thing is is
that we were kind of smart in that we we
had a separate English label that we licensed to as
well as a label here, so we would get licensing
money from that, and you know when we kind of
(43:20):
somehow got a little more money each time to record
it a better studio, which was would be Green Street.
I guess it just kind of, you know, was such
a gradual thing when we did sign TOGEF and I
guess we got I don't know, like it was kind
of it was a tough record because well, one thing,
(43:44):
we did have some backlash, like Steve Albettie was like,
you guys, you know, we didn't talk to see for
a long time. But uh, but you know the thing
was is that, yeah, we could do whatever we want,
but it's not like they really promoted our They didn't
give us a giant marketing budget either, but we were
(44:06):
able to actually have our own record label, s YR,
and put out vinyl and they actually never realized that
we were making money off of that. Not a lot,
but you know, it's like.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Is it frustrating.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Being in the Moses position where you know, the beginning
it was good for us, like this particularly sucks? Well, no,
you know, this particular act that's opening for you is like, Wow,
you've done everything in the US.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
And then like next year, oh, they're a massive square garden. Okay, cool,
and this next opening act that's after the seventh time,
then my self esteem started to go down where it's
just like ah, man, like I'm not saying why I
used to joke back then, like I don't want to
be Fishbone, Like I don't want to be the band
(44:57):
so cool that just traffic directs everyone to go in
the red carpet and then suddenly you're going on the
Moses arc thing and you can't have that what we
used to call a Bentley moment. My manager's like, yeah,
you guys just never had a Bentley moment. You didn't fail,
but you just in your mind this idea of you
(45:20):
slow motion in clubs and you know, rap shit, we
never have that. But for you guys, was a disappointed
not saying disappointing that you didn't get that level of vccolade, right, Yeah,
like to watch people that you influenced.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Yeah, I mean not really. I mean Nirvana was such
an anomaly. And also I think our path had just
been so like kind of slow and steady, and it
allowed us to do other things that we wanted to do.
And it's a fame like that as a it's just
(45:59):
a freaky thing, gotcha. It really just brings up so much.
So maybe other people in the band were more frustrated.
I don't know, but it's kind of like, you know,
we had our niche and we kind of were able
to have a living and you know, I just feel
(46:21):
now like I'm so pessimistic about the music industry and
streaming and it makes me not want to play music.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
You want to take your ball and go home?
Speaker 4 (46:35):
I do?
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I know? All right? Well can I Okay? So the
thing is, I'm I feel.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Like I'm working for Lucian Grange, you know, like I'm
his boy.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Weren't we always?
Speaker 4 (46:49):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Weren't we all?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
What this is leading to is as a member of
rock and Wall of Fame and whatnot, like in terms
of making sure that these pioneering bands also get there.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Would that mean anything to you to this point to
get that last like, does that mean anything?
Speaker 4 (47:11):
What rock and roll Hall of Fame? Yeah, I don't know.
It seems kind of meaningless in a certain way, like
it's sort of a popularity contrast, Like it's not it
doesn't seem anymore to be about like people who had
significant impact or now it's just like, oh, they sold
a lot of records.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I know, but I'm just saying, like what And I
know it's a weird question, like will you allow yourself
to really enjoy getting the flowers or just.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Uh, I guess. I mean when I was nominated for Grammys,
I was even saying that I was kind of like,
I hate the Grammys. It's just this music industry thing
that I've never paid attention to my whole life. And
you know, I don't quite It's it's nothing I like
(48:02):
about the music about music is the industry. But at
the same time, I did feel it was kind of
fun to be recognized, you know, outside of my ghetto whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Well, because I think what's happening now is that all
that you influenced. Have you allowed yourself to see that
the influence is real? And again I'm asking you as
a person who eighty percent of the time an act
comes up to me.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
And says, oh my god, you changed our lives and
da da da da, and.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Yeah, the pre therapy me would just basically like, well,
if I was so important, then why am I playing?
You know, Kalamazoo Michigan State Fair and da da da dah.
Like there was a part where I actually let that
get to me. But then there's also a part where
I realized that I might evaded in my own kind
(48:58):
of sabotaging if you even though I'm still going on
the path to I don't know where it is I'm
supposed to be going, but I'm just one.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Day at a time.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
But You're gonna have a kid.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's the that's the that's the reward. Let me ask
you these last few questions.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
So one, how hard is it to embrace a new
pivot once you've established yourself in and sort of flag
planet your legacy in one area, which of course is
in sonic youth, like in walking away from all those
things and it being.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
In your rear view mirror.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
And not being jaded and cynical, Like how do you
embrace other pivots that you want to do? Like how
do you view collaborations now? Because collaborations were a big
part of that world you came from.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
I mean it's been fairly kind of easy in a
way because you know, like I accidentally made a solo record,
and then I made another and another.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
How do you accidentally a solo record?
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Well? I met justin raised and through his brother. Okay,
Like we were sitting next to each other at a
restaurant and we suddenly found ourselves.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
That's how it came to be.
Speaker 4 (50:18):
Yeah, this girl started talking about their sex lives and
tables were really close together, and we all looked at
each other and like I was with this friend of mine.
I don't know, And then we just started talking and
he was like, oh, my brother's a producer. He worked
this guy Ferrara, and like I don't care, you know,
(50:39):
like that's not my world, right, But then his brother
dm me and he said he was working on this
Lawrence roth Brune record and they were having to people
come in and do vocals and he kept sending me stuff,
and I finally he sent me something. I felt, Okay,
I can could be interesting. I should be open.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Right when you collaborate with people, are you one familiar
with the worlds that they come from or is it
just hey, let's see what happens.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
Well, I don't usually collaborate with people that much, and
so what happened was I was pretty skeptical, actually, but
I did these vocals and he he took the leftovers
and he made this trashy drum beat to go with
(51:36):
it and send it to me, and I was kind
of like, oh wow, this is kind of cool, Like
he really understands my sensibility. And so I went back
and did more vocals and put some guitar har down
and that song became Murdered Out okay. And then about
six months later we just started working together and he
(51:59):
Justin's wild, but I I he does come from like
punk rock, East Coast roots, and he you know, you
haven't seen New Sonic cute and blah blah blah anyway,
so we just he kind of just gets my vocal style,
and I know I can go in with anything and
he'll make it into basically.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
You talk about how the Collective Project came to be
in terms of, like it's kind of DNA into a
world of hip hop that really sounds natural, Like it
sounds awesome if I say so myself.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Thanks. I mean, he and his brother do like hip
hop's beats and stuff for people, his brother more than
he does.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Cherry.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
I'm not a natural singer, you know, so I have
a limited range, and so I get really inspired and
I use things like space and rhythm and articulation.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
You know.
Speaker 4 (53:03):
That's so I was. You know, I was really happy
to actually work work the beats on it, and then
I would add my dissonant stuff, which you don't really
hear in hip hop so much when they turn the
rockets like three chord, like power cards.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Hip hop, the supermarket music.
Speaker 4 (53:22):
Now, yeah, but I guess now like people are listening
to like Chewgazing, well, are you the influenced kind of
putting a sampling a lot of that? Funny? It's funny enough.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I'm going to ask you the question that I hate
when people ask me this question. You could pass if not.
Is there anyone new that you listen to now? Like
I hope that one day you and Tyler the creator
run across each other, like it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
He's always saying he's that a little like Tyler in this.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, I was going to say, like you, you and Tyler,
I think that that that should be a that's a
project that I can almost Yeah, you guys should work
with each other.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
I'm open to that. I mean I'm always a little
like skeptical of like, yeah, working with someone with a
big name, you know, like I did something with model homes.
You know, this guy's experimentally. Okay, two guys, Yeah, we
made a single.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
Now Tyler is a big name, it's a paralleled universe,
but his beginnings are very.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Much like it's.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's the downtown scene, like literally a collective, just the
West Coast hip hop version of whatever you want to
call it, the Mumblecred movement or right right, his version
of Dogma ninety five. Like, I believe that both of
you have your roots almost in the same parallel universe.
Can you tell me how you got involved in the
(54:50):
Chronology of Water project with Christian Stewart.
Speaker 4 (54:53):
Yeah, just I mean I knew Kristen a little bit,
and uh, she just came over asked me if I
would do the small part in her film and explained
what it was, send me the script, and it just
seems you know, fun I mean, I like her a lot,
immense respect for her, and she's very articulate about what
(55:15):
she wants and you know she yeah, just super smart.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Now I know that you've revisited your first memoir, Yes,
Golden Band, Why did you find it necessary to update
the story?
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Just the editor had the idea to put out a
ten year anniversary. Got it of it so and asked
if i'd write a new chapter?
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, how cathartic was the whole process of unluding what
it felt like to be in the experience from your
point of view?
Speaker 4 (55:48):
I liked, I mean, I like writing it. Sometimes I
feel like it's the only way I know what I'm
thinking is when I start writing and stuff comes out.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Who's that? Got it?
Speaker 2 (56:03):
In closing, I'll ask you, what's the one thing that
you hope that your peers say about you?
Speaker 4 (56:11):
I don't know that I'm funny, okay. I mean there's
a lot of humor in especially the new record. And yeah,
I think people think of me as like super serious.
I feel like as I get older, I'm not as serious.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
What's the one thing that the press never says about
you that you wish we knew about you?
Speaker 3 (56:32):
Is that you have a sense of humor. Yeah, I
guess so well.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
I thank you for answering my crazy questions, and I
thank you for everything that you represented. And I know
that sometimes when you're in this position you feel like
no one's paying attention, or from one person that looked
at a Moses figure that ushered in a movement, I
just want to say thank you for that, like I
(56:58):
was paying attention, and I appreciate your your work and
your artistry.
Speaker 4 (57:02):
Oh thanks, I appreciate that makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
The very cool Kim Gordon on The Quest Love Show
and I'll see you guys on the next Proground.
Speaker 4 (57:10):
Mutual to you a swell thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
The Quest Love Show is hosted by me a Mere
quest Love Thompson. The executive producers are Sean g Brian
Calhoun and Me. Produced by Britney Benjamin Jake Paine.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
Produced for iHeart.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
By Noel Brown, Edited by Alex Connelly. iHeart video support
by Mark Canton, Logo's graphics and animation by Nick Lowe.
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(57:57):
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Speaker 3 (58:03):
That's at q LS.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
Check out hundreds and hundreds of QLs episodes, including the
Quest Love Supreme Shows and our podcast archives. Quest Love
Show is a production of iHeartRadio
Request Left show is a production of iHeart radio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Ladies and gentlemen, I cannot lie to you and say
that our guest today has had some sort of hand
and luring my very band to a certain label called
GEFN DGC, even long before we met. As the co
founder of the legendary band Sonic Youth, our guests has
(00:43):
crafted a movement for more than four decades, inspiring anyone
worth their grain of salt of greatness. Name them Nirvana's
Magic Pumpkins, Pixie's Pavement, Dinosaur Jr. Pro Jam, Whole Radiohead Sugar.
I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
I mean this is the definition of when you hear
(01:05):
people say like your artist's favorite or that meta rabbit hole.
Our guests and bodies that today she said countless of
I be here all day. We even just talk about
the collaborations, always pushing the boundaries of creativity and staying fresh.
An architect of patron, saint of many movements, pioneer of
(01:25):
the downtown scene. Are you embarrassed when we come with
way too many superlatives like.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
She's long for the daylight? Ladies and gentlemen, you.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Can check out the imposter syndrome.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
For sure, I get the coolest bass player ever. Thank
you Kem Gordon for coming to the Quest Left Show.
Appreciate it. How WI great to see you. All right.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, that's what I want to start with because I
know that oftentimes there's the battle the idea of you
versus what you feel is the authentic you. So to
break the ice, I always wanted to ask you this,
Can you tell me three things that you think are
uncool about you?
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well? I guess mostly like I don't think I'm cool,
like I do battle like this kind of feeling of
awkwardness to some extent, you know, unless I'm in a
flow of working or doing something. You know, like I
(02:24):
have a basket of different socks that I wish I
could just get rid of and start over.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I don't know, you know what, Actually, it's funny you
mentioned that I kind of did that last week. I
don't know why I decided to just have a sea
change of all my T shirts, mind to wear my socks.
I decided getting rid of whatever has collectively like just
been there for the last decade and a half and
just start over fresh. I don't know if that's my
(02:56):
version of just getting a new haircut. I'm gonna change
mind to where it started.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Actually, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I probably met you in the most ideal way whatsoever.
So when you walk in a room, do you feel
sort of self conscious because you know that there's an
expected cool factor that we've tagged on you? Or do
you just feel like you just blend in and no
one knows that you've walked in?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I pretty much don't think anyone's gonna know who I am.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Okay, so am I allowed to say where we first met?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Where we were at a.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
New Year's e party at uh Natasha, right Natasha's house.
It was so spot on and cliche that I was like, yeah,
of course, Kim Gordon just walks into a Neyear's party
inside in Natasha's house and is the coolest person in
the room. Literally, like seven of us like just hushed
(03:55):
down and then almost felt like our pressure was getting
to you because I wanted to say something to you,
but then I was like, no, she's probably in her
head right now, so I didn't say it.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But then eventually I did talk to you.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
But do you often feel that we're talking like geeking
out over you?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Or just no?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
I mean honestly, like, I think that's that's the last
thing I think, okay, And I'm kind of a shy person,
so people maybe expect me to be different, so they
think I'm cool because well, I'm not saying a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Can I ask you, what's the best compliment you've ever
received that you actually received it without like the imposter
syndrome like sort of ducking out.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I know someone said
from my last record that I was a genre on
to myself, which I guess I relate to that, okay,
because I don't really like to think in terms of
music genres or anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, I was going to ask later, when you create,
are you sort of of the moment you don't know
what's going to happen the second that you whatever you
deemed your studio home base, do you know what's going
to happen? Or are you a person that has to
like pre plant way ahead of time?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And then no, I'd.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Like spontaneity and improvisation a lot. So I mean when
I work with Justin, like, he'll send me some you know,
beats and things, and I'll figure out what it is
I feel drawn to and then you know, kind of
write some lyrics. But then when I go in and
put guitar down to make it kind of messier. You know,
(05:43):
it's like having a white canvas, like you can't it's
hard to paint on a white canvas.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
You have to right anyway.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And then I'll but I'll tend to not really know
exactly where things are going to fall. And then sometimes
I'll just think, will just come out of my mouth,
you know, Okay, what the hell is that?
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Can you tell me?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
What are the things that you did in the first
twenty minutes of your day today?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Well, I guess I looked at my stupid phone. Okay,
I'm saying it. A friends my galleries, and so I
went down on made tea and I talked to her.
She just came back from the Miami Yard for her and.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Okay, all right, this is rather random non sequitor. But
I'll just ask what is the bravest thing that you
think you've ever done?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
That's a tough one. I guess the bravest thing maybe
was deciding to become pregnant and have a baby. It's
sort of like a world of unknown.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I want advice on that. I want advice on that
because of all the members of the roots, I'm the one.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
That's childless still, okay, because I still.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Think in terms of like, ah, this will slow me down.
Oh this has slowed me down. But I'll also say
that me coming to grips with that level of vulnerability,
you know, I'm a very calculated or if I fail,
I need to perfect this verse.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You know, we're the manual instructions for this, and I
feel like that's one of the things where you just
have to fuck it, like just let it happen. Yeah,
right now, I'm probably as close as I've ever been
to just like what else is left?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Dog, you did everything, Like it's not going to get
more perfect than this.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
What was that feeling like really just giving in?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Because I'm actually asking from an advice standpoint, how do
you allow yourself the vulnerability to accept that type of love?
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I don't know. I mean, it's just like, you know,
first of all, you you only live once that we know,
so I don't know. I just felt like, oh, there's
just like a whole set of experiences and there's something
about when you have someone to take care of that's
really dependent on you. It takes you out of your head,
(08:03):
you know, in a nice way, and it's kind of
you know, it's funend I do. I mean, yes, obviously,
of course I highly recommend it. I'm not sure I
recommend having more than one. I only had one. But
I mean, you know, if you're like travel of you know,
(08:27):
you work a lot, you know, it's difficult. I think
it's harder for women because as equal as your relationship
can be, it's still kind of a lot falls to
the the mama somehow, you know, scheduling, Like you have
a certain urgency towards your when your baby cries because
(08:51):
it's hungry, Like you just want that's to stop, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Can you still be creative and balance? I think that's
the thing that I fear the most. Like I'm so
detail oriented that I almost feel as though I have to.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
That's a bad metaphor to you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I always use the term throw the baby out with
the bath water, but meaning just in terms of of
making sure that I'm one hundred percent present. Yeah, And
I just always figured you can't serve two gods in
the way that creativity is to me, for like music
and fulfilming, all those things that I spend way too
(09:34):
many hours doing that. But this is the closest I've
ever been to just.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it is a
big change, but you still manage to do everything pretty much,
you know, you just have to be more efficient, like
you have different priorities, I suppose, and I don't know.
My daughter's thirty one now, like you never really stop
worrying about your child. I have to say, yeah, that's difficult,
(10:05):
you know.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, do you remember the very first creative project that
you've ever done in life?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
When I was in kindergarten, I went to this lab
school at UCLA where you sort of learned by doing.
And I mean in kindergarten, right, you don't do that much.
But we made clay elephants, like I learned the system,
like I was good with my hands, I guess, And
then so I guess that was my first creative Then
(10:35):
when I went to first grade, they had me go
back and teach the kindergarteners how to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So obviously your love for visual arts was early in
this sort.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Of yeah informed, Yeah, it basically.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Just sounds cliche, but yeah, I always just wanted to
be an artist. Gotcha, I just fell into playing music.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So all right, Well, for me, I you know, gun
to my head, I probably would say I'm a DJ
more than anything. And maybe I forged this career in
a band so I could make money so I could
buy more records to be a DJ.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
So but for you, you still you feel as though the.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I don't know, like visual arts or tangible arts or
that that's your true first love, like as a creator.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, okay, I mean I kind of think of myself
it's hard to explain, but as an artist first, like
an artist who makes music or an artist who writes.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, artists first.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think of myself as just It's
not exactly the same as just being a creative I
just I think spatially in a way.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
What's the transferable creative talent that you have that the
world doesn't know about? Like you play basketball? Are you
a gamer? What's your cooking skills?
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Like? I don't know I am a good cook? I
don't know. I just I think I have a good
special sense.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That's a talent in terms of like functional and energy
in a room.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And yeah, I think what I like about playing music
in a way is like I was kind of wanted
to be a dancer at what point in my life?
And uh, I know, it's just there's a lot of
moving around on the stage, you know, and like you
have a sense of how you can bring something different
(12:35):
to what would be an expected rock show or something
by how you move and where you move and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
All right, So in your position in a band, an
iconic band, who's your north star? As a bass player,
who's in your mind? You're vicariously living through? Like I know,
I see the flea effect now with kids, were like
(13:06):
all of a sudden, you have a bunch of these
balancy kind of I'm like, okay, I know what you
grew up with.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
But for you, who was your north star?
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I actually liked a bass player of in DNA, this
guy Tim Wright.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
He used to play in his socks and he kind
of used a guitar like the way held he almost
held it sideways.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Okay, and he would turn it's a weapon turn a lot.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Okay, But I don't play bass so much anymore, like
I've been. I haven't played bass since the last Sonic
Youth gig.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Okay, but what was that also.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
But he was he was. He definitely inspired me.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, gotcha and Sid Vicious, right of course?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Of course, what are the first three records that you
remember purchasing?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Well, there's it's probably like a Beatles single, okay, but
I don't remember which one. Like I used to walk
up to the record store I lived in West LA
and you know, ask is what's it's the new single out?
You know? Okay, it's a new Beatles single out.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
So Beatles forty five would.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Be one of them.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yeah, I had a Roy Orbison single. I think pretty Women.
I had a Rolling Stones record, okay, like the first one. Maybe.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Well let me ask what three records that you own?
Do you think that we would be shocked that you
listen to Tusk?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I remember the day that Tusk came out, and it
was like a marching band song, right, like they used
marching band drums in the title track.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And it was a double album. I remember them, not
like is it a triple It.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Was a double album, but I remember them. It came
out with I was nine, right, so I don't have
like real time memories, but I remember them panning the
shit out that record.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
So yeah, people hated that record.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So do you gravitate towards what we're not supposed to?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Like, Well, that's funny. I mean I didn't actually get
into that record to like two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
But did you get into it because everyone else didn't
like it?
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Well, I don't know, Like it's funny. My friend Bill Nace,
who have this guitar improvtu I would. I don't know
whether he just found it like in our shelf and
he started playing it. We both just became obsessed with
it and listened to it endlessly, And I have to
say it's like the worst cover art ever, right, which
(15:50):
I think was super expensive and yeah, way over budget
the whole thing. But I don't know, is something about
that record it reminds me I need to go home
and play I've heard it in a while now.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
For me, I think that I'm curious about departure records.
When I first started teaching at NYU, I'm always interested
in the psychological angle, Like Okay, sly Stone has.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
That's a great documentary. By the way, Oh thank you
both of your documentaries.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, like Slide had such pop success with stand that,
why does he do this dark ass record or why
would Prince follow up Purple Range with Around the World
on the Day? What did Fleetwood Macfield after the rise
of rumors, like, you know, to not ruin it, but
(16:44):
not say you're scared so that you know this departure,
I'm in a backfire for the Beatles, like Sergeant Peppers
was hey, let's do show tunes and timpan Alley and
it backfired. Yeah, So I'm always curious that when a
band gets to that place where they're so big, do
they follow up?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I know this is a weird take.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I admire Michael Jackson for trying to even think that
he could top thriller like, oh, forty million, I'm gonna
try one hundred million, which, yes, the quantity.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Of it all is what. I also feel.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Michael Jackson away literally and air quotes, but I actually
admire the balls for him to actually say, now, I'm
not going to do the cover record, or let me
do my jazz record or my Joni Mitchell FaZe like
whatever that is.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
So that'd be interesting, right, What is your all time
favorite food?
Speaker 4 (17:51):
I don't know, like I like so many so much.
I like, like maybe sobaz Okay, you know, I love
French food too, you know, actually soup to poison last night.
It was delicious, okay, but I there was something about
so much to me that's so kind of pure okay
and delicious.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Gotcha. What's the last thing that you made for yourself?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
It was not probably roast chicken?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay. Yeah, So keeping with the fringe, fancy, what's your
all time favorite cereal?
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Paleo Grinella him erewhon.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, even the way you sold it to me was
like cool?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Really, I mean I don't really eat cereal?
Speaker 3 (18:44):
You educated Cereal? I get it.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
There's yeah, yeah, I don't know. I just I basically
don't feel like I've eaten anything if I have a Cereal?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Okay, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
What TV show best describes your childhood, oh man? Or
what TV show did you ever fantasize being a part.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Of I loved Mister ed Talking Horse?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
That was your favorite?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
It was one of my favorites. Yeah, that in seventy
seven Sunset strip? When is that older?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Like?
Speaker 4 (19:19):
In fact, I would drive down Sunset trying to find
the spot where.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
The opening yeah the opening was?
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Yeah? Yeah, where's words? Kookie or whatever his name is?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Do you binge watch anything on television now, like, have
you adapted to streaming culture?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I what's your favorite ure? Well?
Speaker 4 (19:41):
I really enjoyed Line of Duty.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Okay, it's a.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
BBC cop show about police corruption. I like all those
shows about police corruption and were.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
You a Wirehead?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
The Wire? I mean yeah, those those are the classic shows,
you know, got It, Got the Wires? Maybe my all
time favorite show, Gotcha?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
In your childhood bedroom the posters ever adorn your wall?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Who adorned your wall in your childhood bedroom?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I think Dylan probably?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Okay, yeah, what era Dylan are you most loyal to?
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Oh? Only the early stuff. I actually don't really like
anything after nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
All right, so you're you're not a self portrait. I
came into Dylan weird. My parents became the way that,
like Reagan's Christian America just washed over the black community.
My introduction to Dylan was Christian Dylan.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Oh wow, yeah, I don't even know if I know
Christian Dylan.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Oh god, yeah, Like to this day, I'm the only
when I told him, like, when you're going to wake
up like his on the yellow slow train coming like
I told him that, and he just looked at me,
like I'm so sorry, Wow, Well, yeah, I started with
(21:11):
his three Christian awn period and I think what I
think Infidels broke that in eighty three. But I always
get into the wrong rock album for every band, Like
you know, you asked eight year old me, I'll be like, yeah,
man Satanam Majesty's requests, it's cool, right, was like yeah, no,
(21:36):
But I just always as a cool cover. Yes, there
you go, that's there, that's their one saving grace. But
you know, as I got older, then, of course there
were people that set me straight.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
But yeah, I picked.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
I had an older brother too. He sort of make
fun of me, like you don't know what he's talking about. Really,
it's like, who does know what Dylan was actually talk
came about?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Were you the family black Sheep in terms of like
your tastes.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
And no, not at all.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Oh they were. There were more that were.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, my brother was super eccentric person who later became schizophrenic,
but and he was always getting into trouble.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Okay, So.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
I was a goody goody one.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Do you remember the first concert you ever attended?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Actually, the first concert I ever went to was in
Hong Kong when I was living there, when I was twelve.
It was Herman's Hermit's.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
On an army base or no, it was my dad.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Was a professor ATLA and he took some students there
to start a study program at the college Chinese University,
and they came while we were there and played. Yeah,
they did a concert.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
I now know that when you do worldwide like, people were.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Somewhat different now, but yeah, I know that back then, like,
concerts were very different in terms.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Of I mean, I actually don't remember, okay very much.
I remember like in the the hotel bars there that
sort of pretty young Chinese girls would wear boufont dresses
and play beetle covers.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Okay, okay, So this is different than the first records
you owned because CD culture came later. Do you remember
the very first CD that you purchased?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Ah? No, thank you. CDs are just like you know,
they might have been things we blagged from the record
label or something, you know, right.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oh yes, I was going to say, oh wait a minute,
so I asked, we sad this question, So I got
to ask you this question. Another main reason why there's
so much reverence and respect for you guys is simply
because of the insane amount of times that Sonic Youth
Records have fed the roots in terms of okay, and
but by you saying what you said, I know that
(24:11):
this isn't just something that's unique to me, which is
you always visit the record label, You go into the
supply closet, you take all the CDs right, and then
you go to the village and sell them the bleaker
bobs and then you know, Weezer said that they too
lived off of the Blue Album and Piggerton by selling
(24:34):
their own CDs too.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Oh that's funny. I mean we when we first signed
to Geffen or we took a bunch of stuff like
like the guns and roses, welcome mat It's like Madonna
candles and.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
The shame. I felt like, hey, what's that over there?
And like you like the pink panthers.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Like us, you know, like the trench coat with three
people stacked on top of each other, Like that's us.
Like take your shit out of the studio just to
get money on Fridays.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, I'll say, ah, ecstasy, Sonic Youth.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Just I can't believe that we influenced your decision to
signed a gun.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Well, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I had a manager that so something happened like around
ninety to ninety three where he realized that because of
us being a band, that that opened more doors than
like there was no hip hop whatsoever really in Philly
(25:44):
except for like specialized what about Yeah, But he would
have to play rap shows and we got like the
last days of like Nirvana being the household secret, like
they play j C. Dobbs maybe a month before we
played j C.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
So I think that my manager figured out a way
that by ninety three ninety four, certain hip hop groups
could sort of fit on the alternative stages, so like
us doing Lollapalooza or anything with Jay's Addiction or anything
with like just that first, Like you guys are probably
(26:29):
the only guys that we didn't open for, but pretty
much a big.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Part of our growing as a group.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Number one, whenever Wu Tang would mess up, we'd be
the band of the call, Hey Wu ta claim's not
going to make it next week to da da Da
da da ke you guys feeling, So that was like
half of it, and then the other half would just
be us being the open act, like like Cypress Hill
and public Andomy really had to pay almost a tiny
(27:00):
credibility price because the rule was rap groups should only
be a rap shows only, and if you're not with
if you're opening for you too, if you're selling out,
like right, right, So those guys called major flack and
then around ninety.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Three like no one cared anymore. That's when we arrived
and literally like oh interesting, right when the sea change happened.
Have you ever gone karaoke? Never? You've never gone karaoke?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
No, Okay, to be fair, I've only been twice in
my life, and I think both times we're in Japan.
But I head scratched at people that love karaoke because
it's like, I tell my perform for a living so
and to me, the only enjoyable karaoke is when people
sound horrible. So that would never happen, so you would
(27:51):
never be course whatsoever.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
To Yeah, I did. I did a song, a cover
song that way for Addicted to Love. You know, they
just have these this booth on Saint Mark's Okay, So
I went there and I did that. And it was
when the band was in the studio making shit up
for the Weddy album, right, And I was kind of
not down with that because it was just three guys
(28:15):
like wasting lime, gotcha? And then I took that and
actually took it back to the studio. We sped it
up a little, and then I went to Macy's and
made a video because I used to have these for
nineteen ninety nine. You could go in and yeah, it
tell us my favorite video. Just so great to like
(28:35):
walk out pay nineteen ninety nine and have a two
camera shoot.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Right. Okay, what song do you love that you think
everybody hates? Of our songs or a vinye song creator?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Jeez, that's a tough question.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Okay, have you ever made a mixtape for someone?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
I did make a mixtape for some actor once.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Okay, remember what was on it?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Sorry?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
All right? If you were to make me a mixtape
with three songs would have to be on it? Having
not really known me, well, I.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Guess I would put a Brigitte Fontaine our ensemble of
I forget the name of the record, but.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Have you of Chicago or yeah, I might own it.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
They did an improv session together, Okay, Okay, noy the
Pink record?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Can I ask what song has the power to make
you cry no matter how many times you hear it?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Instantly? Maybe?
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Uh, Cortes the Killer.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
What is it about it?
Speaker 4 (29:44):
No, yeah, I don't know. It's just like the melody.
It's like what he hits this one, you know something?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Okay, when this gives me to this day and I'm
I'm mad that it's not as accessible. But the Philadelphia
song that Neil Young sings, I know people know the
Streets of Philadelphia by Springsteen for that soundtrack, but when
the credits go up, Neil Young has I mean, you know,
(30:11):
like he has a very heartbreaking sounding like sensitive voice.
But Neil Young singing his version of Philadelphia that has
nothing to do with the Springsteen version it is.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
It is like one of the most heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I have to check it out.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
One time I had to make a funeral mix and
I thought.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
We put me moody sass songs on there, and it
came up and I realized I overdid it, so like
me running back to the ipile.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Like trying to turn something else on.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Okay, So I feel like your Downtown scene you'r Hashtager
quote Downtown scene is well for me. The neo soul
scene was supposed to be where I don't know if
I owned it. I did completely disown it. But for you,
what's one of the biggest myths of the downtown scene
that you always hear that never happened.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Well, you know, in the eighties, especially early eighties, people
from Europe always wanted to come and do articles about
the crossover between the music scene and the art world,
which kind of didn't exist. I mean, it did exist
in the very early eighties, like during the kind of
(31:31):
the height of No Way Fans, and there were a
lot of young artists who you know, were drawn and
kind of part of that scene. But then by the
mid eighties they were kind of just into their careers,
you know, our careers, and and it was so it
(31:53):
wasn't really what people thought it was in terms of
this mecha like it was super bleak in the eighties,
you know. Also, but that part is kind of I
guess I can be nostalgic about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Who coined the term no wave and is that really truly?
Is it possible?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Like is it just rejecting the idea of a title
or is it kind of like you know, in the
filmmaking world, where you know, Dog one ninety five was
supposed to be this like restrictive movement and whatnot, Like,
were there rules to the.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
No Wave.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Not really. I mean I think it was kind of
I think it was kind of nihilistic actually, I mean
I some people might disagree with me, but like when
you know, punk was supposed to be this movement that
kind of obviously different fractions, but that destroyed rock, which
(32:55):
it didn't. It was three cord rock and roll. It
was just anti corporate, you know, it was different lyrics
and a different sensibility of of what music was supposed
to be. But No Wave was actually really deconstructed rock,
like you didn't necessarily have. There's a lot of dissonance
(33:19):
and density, and it seems just peculiar to New York,
although Japan was kind of parallel, and Japan they had
art movements that came post to World War Two, right
like no Theater and anyway, it was kind of a
(33:39):
nihilistic attitude, and so it's kind of interesting that that
was pretty much particular to New York. And maybe the
influence of like free jazz and you know, other different
sounds minimalist composition, you know, Lama Young and junk age
(34:02):
and people like that. You know, I think that sort
of contributed to it a bit. But it was also
just a feeling of like, no, this is this song
isn't going to have like a beginning of middle ement,
And to me it was very free music and that's
what inspired me to play music.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Gotcha, are any of the.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Rules that you placed on yourselves for that period still
exists for you?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yeah? Kind of in that the main rule was not
to really learn how to play music, which is kind
of a technique in itself, I realize.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Okay, let's take if I would say the biggest year
for Noise in my opinion, especially I havn't worked at
a record store that year, I would say eighty eight.
Now it's not like I think there was a collective
meeting being had by various genres of music, but really
(35:06):
just this movement starts like how where are you guys
that even in the black music world, Like what Public
Enemy is about to start doing with this aggressive noise sound?
Like for me, like the day that the first song
that they experimented with in which they really tested the
(35:27):
limits of like what the hell is that was when
they released a Rebel without a Pause in the summer
of eighty.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Seven, and it changed my walk.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I almost had a hints in asque disposition in the hood.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Hey guys, how you doing? You know?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And you hear this and it changes you. Yeah, and
I realized, like, oh, this is my first soundtrack to
teenage angst like whatever I feel. But in general, like
what is the genesis of the embracing of dissonance?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And just was there a political anger in the air?
Were you all Yoko Ona fans? Did you discover free
jazz and the sixties? Like what was it? I don't know.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
I mean, I think it was just a very gradual
thing like we you know, like we were influenced by
the NOA Evands, We were influenced by free jazz. We
we were certainly into Public Enemy and kind of related
to their music in terms of density. And you know,
we were recording at the same studio they were. And
(36:37):
this is Chum King No, it was Green Street, Green Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I was about to say, just what was it like
recording at Green Street?
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Beg man, Well, it was kind of funny because this
engineer we had had never done guitar music.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Who's your engineer?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
His name was Nick son Sana.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Oh, Nick, yeah, Professor Nick Sonsano.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
Okay, we were the first guitar band he ever recorded.
And I don't know really what he thought, but it
was basically I think he understood it in terms of layers,
you know, of sound, just the way he would record
with you know, Public Enemy or Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Professor Nick was one of the when I taught at NYU.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
He's one of the co teachers also long like Nixon,
Sono did the Public Enemy records, like all the Bomb
Squad stuff, Sonic Youth, like all these New York institutional bands.
And then Bob Power also taught there and he's doing
a tropical quest in De la Soul and eventually di'angelo
(37:42):
the roots that.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Stuff and so.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
But Nick told me something mind blowing about just his
lack of experience as an engineer during that time period.
And he informed me that like we almost did no
automation mixing on Public Enemy. All that stuff was pre done, wow,
which if you know their music, you're like, well, this
has to be a post thing, and it's like, no,
(38:07):
we always did it right preven.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
But for you in that time period, was it just
not knowing.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
There were rules or just like purposely like how many
we shouldn't do that or can't do that? Conversations were had.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
I mean not many, you know, probably there were just
discussions about well it shouldn't go into the red or
too far or something.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
I'm not satisfied until it goes in the red.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I don't know, like, uh, I'm not sure. Like he
was just super like agreeable, you know, got it, and
we would try you know, Lee would try things out
that we knew wasn't kinda and about the record but whatever,
you know, like some of it did, you know, But yeah,
I do recall. I think it was that studio where yeah,
(38:58):
there'd be a number of fans on the board during mixing,
you know.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Right, and then you're just figuring out.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
So at the time, are you saying that both bands
were making like you were making Daydream Nation and in the.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Other room they were in the the newer room, you know,
the I think it was an automated board. Actually, yeah,
some kind of.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So did you guys old board did you realize that
you had two Nation albums in common at the time
when you were making a.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
Little bad I mean that's where like, you know, we
did cool thing and I asked Chuck if he would
come and do this like he did kind of the
most cliche thing right, but it was perfect, you know. Okay,
but I just also remember uh waiting waiting for play,
if you know, everyone waiting for Flay to come and
(39:54):
then for like days or something, and then eventually you'd
hear like his floppy feet going down.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I always wanted to know when the Geffen Records deal happened, like,
was there ever.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
A worry of like being on a.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Major at the time, like you guys being on there
was the cool factor. It was just like, oh, it's Geffen.
It's cool because that's where they land, so it can't
be that bad. But at the time, there was no
you know, you guys had Donna Summer and Elton John.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Yeah, I mean there was you know, like friends of ours,
like or not friends, but Peers Whoskerdoo had signed to
a major and replacements, and I don't know, I guess
we figured like we were just always frustrated at our
lack of distribution, so we that's one reason why we
did it, you know. And we were just like, well,
(41:05):
we've been together for ten years, so if it doesn't work,
fuck it. Yeah, okay, Yeah, And it was a struggle
for sure.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So one of the biggest misperceptions about my band is
because credibility was a major key factor for us critical
claim credibility. Yeah, there was also this sort of what
I will say, a kind of a false narrative, which
(41:35):
was basically that, oh, well, you guys don't care about success.
Like they were always like, yeah, I like you guys
because you know, you do what you want to do
and the label supports what you want to do. And
I wish I could make music like you guys do.
And I'm like, well, it's not like we're sun raw.
This is we don't know how to write a good course.
So like no one told us that we should only
(41:58):
write sixteen bar and an easy course.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Like so it's almost like I.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Didn't know how to write accessible music and so but
we basically got tagged with like, oh, well, we like
you guys because you don't care about success. Okay, So
in eighty seven eighty eight, what does making it look
like to you? Is it a this one job is
(42:25):
all I need to do to live in this apartment
and pay all these bills? Or were you fine with
a life where Okay, I play my band and sometimes,
like the amount of people I've interviewed here and didn't
know that.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
You know, Millie Jackson's telling me that she would gig.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
On the weekends, but then she used to work in
the garment district from and this is with like Platinum Records.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Yeah, so for you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
What does making it look like, especially when you're tagged
with this credibility.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
But we kind of had part time jobs, or at
least one of us did. But the thing is is
that we were kind of smart in that we we
had a separate English label that we licensed to as
well as a label here, so we would get licensing
money from that, and you know when we kind of
(43:20):
somehow got a little more money each time to record
it a better studio, which was would be Green Street.
I guess it just kind of, you know, was such
a gradual thing when we did sign TOGEF and I
guess we got I don't know, like it was kind
of it was a tough record because well, one thing,
(43:44):
we did have some backlash, like Steve Albettie was like,
you guys, you know, we didn't talk to see for
a long time. But uh, but you know the thing
was is that, yeah, we could do whatever we want,
but it's not like they really promoted our They didn't
give us a giant marketing budget either, but we were
(44:06):
able to actually have our own record label, s YR,
and put out vinyl and they actually never realized that
we were making money off of that. Not a lot,
but you know, it's like.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Is it frustrating.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Being in the Moses position where you know, the beginning
it was good for us, like this particularly sucks? Well, no,
you know, this particular act that's opening for you is like, Wow,
you've done everything in the US.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
And then like next year, oh, they're a massive square garden. Okay, cool,
and this next opening act that's after the seventh time,
then my self esteem started to go down where it's
just like ah, man, like I'm not saying why I
used to joke back then, like I don't want to
be Fishbone, Like I don't want to be the band
(44:57):
so cool that just traffic directs everyone to go in
the red carpet and then suddenly you're going on the
Moses arc thing and you can't have that what we
used to call a Bentley moment. My manager's like, yeah,
you guys just never had a Bentley moment. You didn't fail,
but you just in your mind this idea of you
(45:20):
slow motion in clubs and you know, rap shit, we
never have that. But for you guys, was a disappointed
not saying disappointing that you didn't get that level of vccolade, right, Yeah,
like to watch people that you influenced.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Yeah, I mean not really. I mean Nirvana was such
an anomaly. And also I think our path had just
been so like kind of slow and steady, and it
allowed us to do other things that we wanted to do.
And it's a fame like that as a it's just
(45:59):
a freaky thing, gotcha. It really just brings up so much.
So maybe other people in the band were more frustrated.
I don't know, but it's kind of like, you know,
we had our niche and we kind of were able
to have a living and you know, I just feel
(46:21):
now like I'm so pessimistic about the music industry and
streaming and it makes me not want to play music.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
You want to take your ball and go home?
Speaker 4 (46:35):
I do?
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I know? All right? Well can I Okay? So the
thing is, I'm I feel.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Like I'm working for Lucian Grange, you know, like I'm
his boy.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
Weren't we always?
Speaker 4 (46:49):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Weren't we all?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
What this is leading to is as a member of
rock and Wall of Fame and whatnot, like in terms
of making sure that these pioneering bands also get there.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Would that mean anything to you to this point to
get that last like, does that mean anything?
Speaker 4 (47:11):
What rock and roll Hall of Fame? Yeah, I don't know.
It seems kind of meaningless in a certain way, like
it's sort of a popularity contrast, Like it's not it
doesn't seem anymore to be about like people who had
significant impact or now it's just like, oh, they sold
a lot of records.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I know, but I'm just saying, like what And I
know it's a weird question, like will you allow yourself
to really enjoy getting the flowers or just.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Uh, I guess. I mean when I was nominated for Grammys,
I was even saying that I was kind of like,
I hate the Grammys. It's just this music industry thing
that I've never paid attention to my whole life. And
you know, I don't quite It's it's nothing I like
(48:02):
about the music about music is the industry. But at
the same time, I did feel it was kind of
fun to be recognized, you know, outside of my ghetto whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Well, because I think what's happening now is that all
that you influenced. Have you allowed yourself to see that
the influence is real? And again I'm asking you as
a person who eighty percent of the time an act
comes up to me.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
And says, oh my god, you changed our lives and
da da da da, and.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Yeah, the pre therapy me would just basically like, well,
if I was so important, then why am I playing?
You know, Kalamazoo Michigan State Fair and da da da dah.
Like there was a part where I actually let that
get to me. But then there's also a part where
I realized that I might evaded in my own kind
(48:58):
of sabotaging if you even though I'm still going on
the path to I don't know where it is I'm
supposed to be going, but I'm just one.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
Day at a time.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
But You're gonna have a kid.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's the that's the that's the reward. Let me ask
you these last few questions.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
So one, how hard is it to embrace a new
pivot once you've established yourself in and sort of flag
planet your legacy in one area, which of course is
in sonic youth, like in walking away from all those
things and it being.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
In your rear view mirror.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
And not being jaded and cynical, Like how do you
embrace other pivots that you want to do? Like how
do you view collaborations now? Because collaborations were a big
part of that world you came from.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
I mean it's been fairly kind of easy in a
way because you know, like I accidentally made a solo record,
and then I made another and another.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
How do you accidentally a solo record?
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Well? I met justin raised and through his brother. Okay,
Like we were sitting next to each other at a
restaurant and we suddenly found ourselves.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
That's how it came to be.
Speaker 4 (50:18):
Yeah, this girl started talking about their sex lives and
tables were really close together, and we all looked at
each other and like I was with this friend of mine.
I don't know, And then we just started talking and
he was like, oh, my brother's a producer. He worked
this guy Ferrara, and like I don't care, you know,
(50:39):
like that's not my world, right, But then his brother
dm me and he said he was working on this
Lawrence roth Brune record and they were having to people
come in and do vocals and he kept sending me stuff,
and I finally he sent me something. I felt, Okay,
I can could be interesting. I should be open.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Right when you collaborate with people, are you one familiar
with the worlds that they come from or is it
just hey, let's see what happens.
Speaker 4 (51:15):
Well, I don't usually collaborate with people that much, and
so what happened was I was pretty skeptical, actually, but
I did these vocals and he he took the leftovers
and he made this trashy drum beat to go with
(51:36):
it and send it to me, and I was kind
of like, oh wow, this is kind of cool, Like
he really understands my sensibility. And so I went back
and did more vocals and put some guitar har down
and that song became Murdered Out okay. And then about
six months later we just started working together and he
(51:59):
Justin's wild, but I I he does come from like
punk rock, East Coast roots, and he you know, you
haven't seen New Sonic cute and blah blah blah anyway,
so we just he kind of just gets my vocal style,
and I know I can go in with anything and
he'll make it into basically.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
You talk about how the Collective Project came to be
in terms of, like it's kind of DNA into a
world of hip hop that really sounds natural, Like it
sounds awesome if I say so myself.
Speaker 4 (52:39):
Thanks. I mean, he and his brother do like hip
hop's beats and stuff for people, his brother more than
he does.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Cherry.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
I'm not a natural singer, you know, so I have
a limited range, and so I get really inspired and
I use things like space and rhythm and articulation.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
You know.
Speaker 4 (53:03):
That's so I was. You know, I was really happy
to actually work work the beats on it, and then
I would add my dissonant stuff, which you don't really
hear in hip hop so much when they turn the
rockets like three chord, like power cards.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Hip hop, the supermarket music.
Speaker 4 (53:22):
Now, yeah, but I guess now like people are listening
to like Chewgazing, well, are you the influenced kind of
putting a sampling a lot of that? Funny? It's funny enough.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I'm going to ask you the question that I hate
when people ask me this question. You could pass if not.
Is there anyone new that you listen to now? Like
I hope that one day you and Tyler the creator
run across each other, like it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
He's always saying he's that a little like Tyler in this.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, I was going to say, like you, you and Tyler,
I think that that that should be a that's a
project that I can almost Yeah, you guys should work
with each other.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
I'm open to that. I mean I'm always a little
like skeptical of like, yeah, working with someone with a
big name, you know, like I did something with model homes.
You know, this guy's experimentally. Okay, two guys, Yeah, we
made a single.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
Now Tyler is a big name, it's a paralleled universe,
but his beginnings are very.
Speaker 3 (54:28):
Much like it's.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's the downtown scene, like literally a collective, just the
West Coast hip hop version of whatever you want to
call it, the Mumblecred movement or right right, his version
of Dogma ninety five. Like, I believe that both of
you have your roots almost in the same parallel universe.
Can you tell me how you got involved in the
(54:50):
Chronology of Water project with Christian Stewart.
Speaker 4 (54:53):
Yeah, just I mean I knew Kristen a little bit,
and uh, she just came over asked me if I
would do the small part in her film and explained
what it was, send me the script, and it just
seems you know, fun I mean, I like her a lot,
immense respect for her, and she's very articulate about what
(55:15):
she wants and you know she yeah, just super smart.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Now I know that you've revisited your first memoir, Yes,
Golden Band, Why did you find it necessary to update
the story?
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Just the editor had the idea to put out a
ten year anniversary. Got it of it so and asked
if i'd write a new chapter?
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, how cathartic was the whole process of unluding what
it felt like to be in the experience from your
point of view?
Speaker 4 (55:48):
I liked, I mean, I like writing it. Sometimes I
feel like it's the only way I know what I'm
thinking is when I start writing and stuff comes out.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Who's that? Got it?
Speaker 2 (56:03):
In closing, I'll ask you, what's the one thing that
you hope that your peers say about you?
Speaker 4 (56:11):
I don't know that I'm funny, okay. I mean there's
a lot of humor in especially the new record. And yeah,
I think people think of me as like super serious.
I feel like as I get older, I'm not as serious.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
What's the one thing that the press never says about
you that you wish we knew about you?
Speaker 3 (56:32):
Is that you have a sense of humor. Yeah, I
guess so well.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
I thank you for answering my crazy questions, and I
thank you for everything that you represented. And I know
that sometimes when you're in this position you feel like
no one's paying attention, or from one person that looked
at a Moses figure that ushered in a movement, I
just want to say thank you for that, like I
(56:58):
was paying attention, and I appreciate your your work and
your artistry.
Speaker 4 (57:02):
Oh thanks, I appreciate that makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
The very cool Kim Gordon on The Quest Love Show
and I'll see you guys on the next Proground.
Speaker 4 (57:10):
Mutual to you a swell thank you.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
The Quest Love Show is hosted by me a Mere
quest Love Thompson. The executive producers are Sean g Brian
Calhoun and Me. Produced by Britney Benjamin Jake Paine.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
Produced for iHeart.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
By Noel Brown, Edited by Alex Connelly. iHeart video support
by Mark Canton, Logo's graphics and animation by Nick Lowe.
Additional support by a Lance Coleman. Special thanks to Kathy
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