QLS Classic: David Porter

Questlove Supreme's celebration of Black Music Month continues with an classic David Porter interview. David is a true architect of the Memphis sound. Isaac Hayes's longtime writing and production partner tells Team Supreme about making hits with Sam & Dave, The Bar-Kays, Carla Thomas, and more. A longtime Stax Records artist, producer, songwriter, and executive, David Porter also recalls the label's glory days and its downfall and talks about his songs which have become sample staples. This interview first broadcast in 2023.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Questloft Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
So of y'all, June is Black Music Month, and every
year we use this time to acknowledge something that really
can't be overstated. Black music is one of the foundational forces.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Behind modern culture.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Now, back when Teams Supreme and I were doing the
Questlove Supreme and now on the Quest Loft Show, we've
always tried to create a space for those stories. So
for the entire month of June, we're bringing you an
episode every day focused on the history, influence, and ongoing
evolution of black music. Team and I dug through the

(00:41):
catalog and selected episodes that feel especially meaningful for now,
the conversations that inform, entertain and connect the dots between
where this music comes from where it's headed. Now, alongside those,
we'll be releasing four new episodes of Quest Loft Show
featuring trailblazers, innovators, and cultural connectors and visionaries who represent

(01:04):
the past, present, the future of black music. I want
you to enjoy this. Thank you. What's up, lazies and gentlemen.
This is another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I mean

(01:28):
host Questlove, which means the family. We got Layah, Hello,
how are you.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
I'm well, Hello, sir doing well?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, you're back in LA right now?

Speaker 4 (01:38):
I am back in La.

Speaker 5 (01:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Gloom and Doom.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, Gloom and Doom.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, May Gray June Gloom. People don't know this about La.
Get it, get it into it.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay. It's good to hear. Fan Tickeolo is in the
blue room. Yeah, man, yeah, man, I got a new
light bulb. I think previously you're going purple.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
Yeah, I was on purple.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I went blue. I went cool. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
We got a legend in the building with us today,
so you know, I tried to make it cool for him.
So yeah, that is what it is.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Saga, Steve, what's up, bro?

Speaker 6 (02:13):
How you doing? Hi? Everybody?

Speaker 3 (02:15):
What?

Speaker 6 (02:16):
Everything's good? Everything's good, Thank you, Steve.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Ladies and gentlemen. I will say our guest tonight is
I mean, I feel like all of our guests are legendary,
super legendary, but our guest tonight world famous Songwriting Hall
of Fame member having damn near pinned over close close
to two thousand joints joints in his illustrious career. He

(02:42):
is the architect, in my opinion, the architect of the
sound of Memphis, you know, a city that has rich
musical history, and you know, as a staff member, as
a writer, as a producer for Al Bell's legendary Stax label,
he is giving us so much magic over the decades,

(03:02):
along with this songwriting partner Isaac Hayes, and on his
own of course, you know, he's worked with too many
legends to name. Uh, there's Sam and Dave, There's Otis Wridding,
bar Kay's, Carla Thomas, the Emotions, Albert King, Rufus Thomas
and of course Johnny watch out for Jodie Taylor Eve.

(03:25):
Even if those names I mentioned are slightly before your time,
I will say that, you know, if you're a hip
hop head, can we say that his composition might be
the musical backdrop of the East West La beef.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
O Man, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well no, no, no, because the word is that you know,
Pop got yeah, Pop sort of felt that you know
who shot you was about him, which you know, we
have clear evidence that Biggie did that rhyme with Keith
Murray for the Mary j b interlude, you know, long ago.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
But the truth didn't matter at that point. The truth
didn't matter.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, the truth didn't matter. I guess the perception was
bigger than what reality was. You know, we live in
a time where facts don't matter, and so I will
just say that, you know, between like Biggie and Wu
Tang and Kane and Mop and Will Smith and so
many others have used his work. You know, we're in

(04:26):
the presence of a legend and we're honored to have
the one and only great David Porter on Quest Love Supreme.
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yes, yes, as how I read said, how do you
talk that? It's really.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
You laid the foundation. So I'm just you know, regurgitating
your your life's work. So were you right now? Are
you still a membhers?

Speaker 5 (04:52):
No, I'm in New York. I was speaker at the
ai mp A summit, which I left there, came right here.
That's why I have this loud jacket on. I was
along with your fan and your friend Doug it Fresh.
He wanted me to tell you.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
How Oh okay, we had Doug on the show.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Oh yeah, yeah, you know I was going to ask, like,
do you normally dressed this swinky every day?

Speaker 5 (05:21):
Now? A sweatsuit guy? That's me?

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Okay right now.

Speaker 5 (05:25):
Loud jacket on it. But he's folk. But Dougiees wanted
me to be sure to tell you hell and yes,
it's an honor for me to be here.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
What you guy?

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Can you tell us your first musical memory?

Speaker 5 (05:38):
Well, you mentioned one of the cornerstones of those memories,
and that's Maurice. I was born on the Dating Street
in Memphis, Tennessee. My next door neighbor was a family
called the Cunninghams, and they were drummers, and we sang
up the street at a church called Rosy, a Baptist
church where if you read Maurice's autobacco, he mentioned that

(05:58):
in his bikle but which is true? And Kelly Cunningham
and Leander Cunningham were the brothers that were older than
Carl Cunningham, who just so happened to be the drummer
that was an airplane press with Otis Redding. He was
the original drummer for the barcades. Four to us up
the street on the left hand side of the street
was Maurice White and we came together eight nine years

(06:22):
old singing a rose here back to church right on
that same dead end street. And the stimulus for the
impressions and the motivation for her creativity and people making
us thinking that we had some singing talent because they
were clapping and shouting, and we didn't realize it because
they were worshiping. We thought it was all about as

(06:42):
young kids. But the motivation to want to have the
passion for music where they stem out of that experience.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
So you were nine years old when you started playing
in your church.

Speaker 5 (06:53):
Well, actually I was before nine. We were going to church.
Uh yeah, but but actually singing in a kind of
a quartet that's not the right kind of word, but
loop kids singing together Linn, Kelly and Maurice and I
was about eighty nine years old. We were going to
Rose Elementary School and singing in church on Sunday. That

(07:14):
was the real experience of learning how to feel good
about doing that in front of people.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
And you were born in Memphis, Tennessee.

Speaker 5 (07:23):
I was born at two ninety Virginia Street, up against
a building called Coal Manufacturing Company, which was the last
last house at the bottom of the hill. When it rained,
water would roll down the hill and up against that
tin building and very close to going into our home.
And the next door neighbor was the Cunninghams, which Carl

(07:44):
was the drumming, and right up going up the hill
was Maurice and that was it right there.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Like I know, a lot of legends were born in Memphis.
Aretha Franklin was born in Memphis.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
Was she notice she was? Yes?

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Okay, she was.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
Her father preached Reverend Franklin preached my father's funeral, you know,
at Great Whitstone Baptist Church. Yeah. When I first when
I told her Reef that years later, it just blew
her away because she had recorded I Take what I
Want one of the compositions bizic and I and I
told her then she just blew her away. Yeah. Yes,
she was born in Memphis, Tennessee, right near Fourth Street.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
So just tell me, like the general like, why is
that town so musical?

Speaker 5 (08:25):
Well, there, in nineteen forty seven, forty eight, there was
a radio the first black radio station in the country
was WDA in Memphis, Tennessee. And the fact that that
before that, all of the music you heard was you know,
the pop, flavorite kind of kind of vibe. And so
the energy for the originality and I'm going to speak

(08:47):
for in just a second didn't come to bear until
WDIA started playing all of those amazingly emotional connecting music
by black artists. And the one thing that happened that
was really really meaningful and impactful on young kids during
that time was the individuality of artists and artists. You know,

(09:08):
back then you had a four piece rhythm based drums,
guitar and keys, and so in order for that kind
of magic to happen in a unique kind of way,
artists that you were listening to on the radio. One
thing that as a he had, one thing that really
manifested itself to you was the individuality of artists. You
listened to Chuck Berry and what he was doing with
the guitar and his rhythm essence of how he was

(09:28):
doing what he was on even though he had a
rhythm of compingment, but the focus was his guitar playing.
And you listened to Little Richard and his piano playing
and what he was doing. The individuality, in addition to
his persona as a singer was was his personality. Fats
Domino with the same piano playing. The individuality of Fats
was the Fats buy So you were you were able

(09:50):
Jackie Wilson with the range and the magic in his
tones and things you were looking at as a youngster,
those kind of impressions that were in turn motivating you
to understand that the magic having through music was trying
to find something that identified you and your uniqueness. And so,
starting from that kind of foundation, all of us started
trying to find that magic. So when you mentioned Al Jackson,

(10:11):
his father was a musician and a drummer. But L
started finding his own niche out of an individualistic way
for himself. And by the time we got to Stacks
with the slope floor in the room, the Stacks was
an old movie theater and the floor was sloping. We'd
get in there during our records. L would be at
the bottom of the floor. We'd be doing the vocal

(10:32):
off the top of the floor with Sam and Dave
or Johnny Taylor, Aba King or whoever. Isaac would be
the mid floor and Steve would be a little higher
than that. L heard of the lake when he would play,
and his pocket was feeling where the true essence of
the tempo was with that laid back kind of essence
that was coming throughout the room, and so but everybody
would work to find the individuality because of the motivation

(10:53):
of the music that we was hearing coming from Wdia,
even with BD King before he blew up. You know,
there was magic that he was finding it within himself.
Bobby Blue Blain and Johnny A's and all these people
had their own persona. Of course, was also in turn
motivating us with aspirations to do music, to try to
find that for ourselves.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Actually, I'm glad I have you now because you know,
even though it's been kind of six months since the
release of the movie. As a director, Baz Luhermann kind
of has us at arm's length a little bit with
his You know, it's when you make Hollywood biopics, it's

(11:35):
either like did these facts really happen? Or is this
a Hollywood tale? And I want to believe the Elvis movie,
but I gotta hear from someone that was at least
in proximity. The way they portrayed it was like, you know,
he was just hanging around the way amongst the brothers

(11:57):
and whatnot. I mean, is that a fact or was
that more or embellosing beers.

Speaker 5 (12:02):
Lhrmann came to Memphis and asked if he could talk
to me. So he came to my studio in Memphis.
The reason he came to the studio in Memphis because
HBO did a special called The Searcher on Elvis Presley.
And if you saw the Searcher, which they showed it
for a couple of days in a row, and it

(12:24):
was a few years ago, then you saw me talking
about Elvis on that special. The reason that I was
able to talk about everscol So when I was a
kid walking up from the Virginia Street where I was born,
up to Beale Street, which wasn't that very far, Maurice
did the same thing. We would see people because we
were not able to go in the clubs or anything like,

(12:45):
we would just walk up the street and just see people.
I was a poor kid, like I said, from a
lar's family. My dad was died when I was two
years old, and so I had a little bit of
freedom of beautiful, amazing mother. So I was able to
go and just with these aspirations that want to do music,
get that kind of vibe. And so there was this
young kid, white kid hanging around the street. I didn't

(13:05):
know it was Elvis especially anything like that, nothing akin
to that. But I've found out that that was, in
fact Elvis, a white boy that wanted to sing black
And so what I did was I really told bears
where Elvis got the vine from. Elvis got the vine
from Roy Hamilton. And if you saw the movie The
Search It, the reason that the name Roy Hamilton is

(13:28):
mentioned in the movie is because I told him that's
where it came from. Otis Blackwell, who was the writer
who didn't get all of the money and certainly didn't
get all this writer credit, was a writer of so
much of the Elvis still and if you listen to
ODIs if he was alive, you see where Oldis also
got it from. But but Roy Hamilton, the flavor and
the nuances of Elvers's singing came from Roy Hamilton. Check

(13:49):
us out of some MISERI to catalog.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
I used to Yeah, I used to listen to I
think Isaac covered Don't Let Right, Yes right, So my dad,
my dad used to play the Roy Hamilton version. Now,
I always thought that was Elvis. The turntable was too
high for me to see, like what was on the lake.
So yeah, yeah, for the longest I thought that was
an Elvis Presley song.

Speaker 5 (14:12):
So what with this being straight up in real there
was an authenticity about Elvis's comment being influenced by black
artists and that that was in fact true. Elvis would
come to It was an event that WD I with
Hole in Memphis called the Good Real Review. Elvis would
show backstage at the Dead Review. There are pictures of

(14:32):
Elvis with Rufus Thomas and so, but that's real now.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
So was he the only white gentleman to do that?
Is that why I feel so special?

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Because he was just by himself?

Speaker 5 (14:43):
Listen, the individuality of black talents was a template that
American used to break talents like that them finding ways
to replicate some anuances of black talents was the cornerstone
became whatever you want to call it, even up into
this day. So no, no, he was not. He was
not the only one.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
And not the first I'm guessing either, just the maybe
the most talented.

Speaker 5 (15:08):
He just blew up, but he, you know, he was.
There was so much magic happening around Beal Street. This
is famous street Memphis, a lot of poor people, but
we were people having a good time inside of what
they had to deal with, and that was the place
they would go to do it. And there were clubs
and the like on that street. That was magic. And

(15:30):
like I said, the individuality of people being proud of
who they were would manifest itself, not only in the
way people would perform on stage, but even the way
a guy who may have been working on the garments
shop were dressed for the weekend, just be having a
good time in his own world. In in the bias
and the racism that was going on in that prevalent time,
you could not kill the spirit of a people, and

(15:51):
that was that was what it was. And then there
was some folks lock in the Elvis would would come
and hang around that vibe and that spirit, and obviously
we eventually found out what it a being.

Speaker 6 (16:00):
Friend.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Well, let me ask you, so, you know, having come
of age in the mid seventies early eighties, I'll say
that you know, your average soul singer is pretty much
at this point like emulating Stevie Wonder like with his
soulful voice and whatnot. And so you know, I've of course,

(16:21):
because I wasn't born during the time when Elvis first
came out, I didn't know for sand like, so everything
I learned was you know, sort of like later in
my life. And I always knew, you know, that the
theory of like, you know, if I could find a
white boy that sings like a black guy. I'll make
a billion dollars from you know, Colonel Tom Parker saying that.
But like, in your opinion, was Elvis's voice in your

(16:44):
opinion as a true blue Memphis in that in that era,
was that the actual voice of a black guy?

Speaker 5 (16:51):
Like?

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Was it if you were to put him more, was
it sort of like Bobby Carwell? Well, yeah, I know
I agree with the Roy Hamilton thing. But is that
sort of snarling thing that was gonna was that the
actual voice of because if I'm thinking of that time period,
I'm thinking more like Ray Charles and whatnot. But is

(17:13):
it just was it just typical for black singers to
have that sort of voice?

Speaker 5 (17:17):
That isn't you got to give him a little bit
of him finding what the black brother couldn't give, and
that's the whiteness of who he was. And so the
nuance is that that gave him a little bit of
a tort came out of him not being able to
replicate with the truness of what all these talents were.
And you consider what Otis was doing. Otis Blackwell, who

(17:38):
wrote the songs I Wish you could hurt. I met
this brother and knowing that there were a lot of
credits that were given to Elvis that I knew Elvis
didn't write the songs with him, but he's written the
songs with Otis Black well, things that I heard, those
kinds of things. But you can listen to him, and
you can hear this guy saying and you can say, oh,
Ever's got some of that from him. Ever's got some
of that from Roy Evers got some of that from him.

(17:59):
And so he was able to put those things together
but also find a niche that gave you a little
bit of what he was about as well. And it
became a combination of those things. But it was magnified
by the uniqueness of the Black contribution that he grew
from fast forward justin without a doubt, right. You know.

(18:20):
The interesting being if you think about the seventies and
before them, listen, Teddy was Teddy, Otis was Otis. Johnny
Taylor was Johnny. Albert who couldn't read, and we would
whisper the lyrics. I would be on the mic when
he was singing, say the line before he was singing.
But the uniqueness of Albert planning to get to us

(18:42):
hitting the line, the uniqueness of Albert was inside of
his personality as avert. Oh wow, only he to do
those kinds of things. You give Johnny Taylor the melody
that Isaaca and I we wrote out, got love Somebody's
Baby because somebody been loving mine. Now were the song,
and Dave wrote a song and to teachers. But when

(19:04):
Johnny sang the song, the individuality of Johnny took it
to another another kind of a blue song, Little Bluebird.
We wrote that one listen to it. The individual reality
of the artists, even with the hazing for the song,
would take it to the persona that was the inside
of their uniqueness. And then by the time we get
the Sam and David, we're doing the church thing, which

(19:25):
is all we're doing the individual of Sam with the
combination of David and I would direct them like a choir.
If you listen, I think you you're gonna hear me
holler at the very intro, I thank you because I
make the mistake and holler. We kept that tape, but
that's because I'm on the other side of the mic
directing them. But I cannot give them the individuality that
brings out the uniqueness of what they were. And it

(19:46):
became an identity thing because they were focused on making affairs,
and so that's what all of those are. So even
before Stevie, the individuality that ultimately ended up being Stevie
grew out of some of the influences that he heard
as a youngster. Because the first record I heard on
Steven Fingertips, I didn't hear Stephen One like Stevie Wonder.

(20:07):
You all I heard Steven want to like Stevie Wonder
because he stopped affecting the uniqueness that was truly him
and he magnified it. And then everybody says, to your point,
chus start trying to follow that template. But those who
followed the temple never got to the strength that Stevie had.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
I see, I see class for you. When do you
sort of credit the moment that you started your mission
like you're not your come to Jesus moment with music,
but that this was something that you professionally wanted to pursue.

Speaker 5 (20:47):
I was, how real should I be with this?

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Let's super real?

Speaker 5 (20:55):
I was so so poor, from a family of twelve
with an outdoor toilet in Memphis. I told you who
my neighbors were, and we all were that way. Maurice
and I moved from where we worked to a housing
project called Lamau Gardens at the same time, which was
a housemand I just felt that I had to find

(21:20):
a way to do this thing. I thought I was
a singer to do this thing, and I was trying
to find an identity and didn't know where that was.
And so here's a kid working at a grocery store,
just getting ready to graduate from high school from Booker T.
Washington High School where Maurice White and I graduated in

(21:40):
nineteen sixty one from and I'm working across the street
from this movie theater, which was Satellite Records, and I
would go over there because there was a little record
shop there, and I had no money to buy the records.
But there was a lady inside there who said if
they had a recording company and they had a label.

(22:01):
Asked her about it, so they said we recorded country artists.
So I said, well, could could you audition me? Would
you listen to me? She said, well, you can talk
to my brother, but we just recalld country. So I
went in there and I talked to Jim Stewart, who
didn't want to to to listen to me or anything
such as that. He had a guy working with him

(22:21):
by the name of Chips Morman. If you google the
name Chips Moman. He became legendary later on, but he
was the guy that was working with Jim Stewart. Before
there was no Stacks, it was called Satellite Records. And
so I got the audition there and froze in the
room on the audition, but I bought to them. I
got some of my classmates to perform on it for me.

(22:43):
I got Booker T. Jones to play baritone horn on
the demo. I got Andrew Love to play tennis sacks
on the demo. I got William Bail the same background
along with James Austin on the demo. Willie Bail became yes, Yes,
and my demo was a song original song. Because he
asked me did I have it? Did I write songs?
I told him yeah, I didn't have any. He asked me, well,

(23:06):
did I have a band? I told him yeah, I
didn't have one, And so he had two artists, Nick
Charles and Charles Hines Country. I convinced him to let
me do an audition. I then got the guys together
to do the audition with me and Froze on the
demo and flopped. It didn't work for me, but Jim
Stewart met booker T. Jones, who used to play baritone

(23:29):
on Rufus Thomas record William Bell. He recorded you don't
miss your water to your well run dry, and the
rest is history. I mean, it's so. What it showed
me was that I had a long way to go,
and I started trying to find out who I really
was if I wanted to be this, and I realized
that I couldn't be the artist. I tried a couple
of other records. I recorded for Savoy Records. I was

(23:51):
Little David. I recorded with Willie Mitchell, Kenny Kane. Yes,
on Savoy Records.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
I didn't know that this avoid subsidiary.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
Really, no, no, no, So boy was different. The boy
wasn't Stax Records.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Okay, that's that's for me.

Speaker 5 (24:08):
Out hustling, trying to trying to find.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
A pant Okay, I get it.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
Okay, that's that's report. But so in trying to do that,
I get with this guy who we we used to
sing on talent shows. It at the Palace Stade on
Beale Street, by the name of Isaac Hayes. So Isaac
and I started talking and said, let's let form a
writing team. Now to come to Jesus. Moment was me
figuring that if I'm gonna get in the music business,

(24:33):
I'd already failed with the audition trying to sing. But
I bought this guy all this amazing talent, and so
I didn't get right in. I got with Isaac and
we formed a label called Genie Records. And there's a
record on a guy by the name of Homer Banks
called Little Lady of Stone and ain't that a lot
of love? If you find that record, that's a record

(24:55):
that I did with Isaac before Stax Records. Then I
went and Convensium Stuart to get an opportunity as a writer.
I became the first staff writer for Stax Records, given
a six month trial. In the rest of his history,
I started building the writing staff and all of that.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
What year was that, I want to.

Speaker 5 (25:13):
Say it's nineteen sixty three, but I could be slightly
slightly off because I was there in nineteen sixty one.
There's a record called The Life I Live On Barbara
Stevenstead that I did with Marvel THOMASLF was before Evan.
Isaac and I really connected, So it was like I
was hustling.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
You mentioned Willie Mitchell. What was it like working with him?
At that time?

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Willie Mitchell was was working with a company but of
High Records, that was working with London as a distributor,
and WILLI was not on the inner loop of High Records.
Willie was working with a guy by the name a
white guy by the name of Ray Harris, and they
didn't really realize what Willie Mitchell was. And so I

(25:56):
found a way to convince them to let me make
a record there. And so Willie and I wrote a
song you can google this called practice makes Perfect you'll
see written by Porter Mitchell. That's Willie and I and
I'm Kenny Kane is David Porter so so, but this
is before they allowed Willy to be Willie and Ray

(26:17):
Harris got out of the way and Willy got the
opportunity with some kind of deal. He worked with Joe
Kogie and Nick Pacy and those guys and became the
guy that Royal Studio became and High Records became. The
rest is history with Willie Mitchell. That's how my coming
to Jesus, moment of finding that writing was my in
road defining a.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Path for this, So was it mostly a trial by
fire in terms of you know, even with me, like
with my musical education, a lot of my knowledge of
like the first year that I came to a studio
was more or less like what does this do? What
does this do? And you know I didn't. No one
told me about sixteen bar structure and you know, how

(27:02):
to find my own sound. So you know, a lot
of my education of music production just came from like
the first three years of trying to see what works
and whatnot. But how do these people know to trust
you if you don't was expected for you to like
be accredited songwriters and have experience like writing out charts

(27:25):
and knowing arrangements and all those things, or you just
are you singing to the each band members like this
is what you do?

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Or yes, all of that, but we didn't do. Isaac
Hayes did not write music. David Border did night No,
he didn't, And so we went through the whole process
of head arrangements. The great artist, the greatest creative that
was Otis Ready. If you were able to be in
a studio with Otis reading during a session, you would

(27:55):
marvel at how he would come up with the baseline,
the horn patterns, the guitar direction for Steve to play
out of. On those records, Isaac and I were motivated
from the church. We realized that motoon had to straightforwth
be with these beautiful melodies on the top of that,
and it was amazing how they did that. But we

(28:16):
also realized, because we talked strategically about how we were
going to find a path inside of this industry to
do this, we realized that if we want to have
an impact, we had to find an identity. We had
records before we did the Sam and Dave, there are
quite a few of those records, but we were trying
to find the identity way for us to be affected,
and we realized that that opportunity came from the spirituality

(28:37):
of the church on the lower end of things, and
so we started focusing on the bass, drums, guitar lines
rather than the straight four kind of things. And that's
why they became patterns inside of all of the songs
that we were doing. But those patterns didn't come from
us writing a chart for that came from us giving
the musicians the extra patterns. Hold on I'm coming a

(29:01):
perfect example of that. The drum beat on hold On
I'm Coming did not come about with us just starting
to sing and they started playing No. I went to
Al and said, I remember the record get out on
the Life Woman by leaving play that beat. He played
that beat. I said, Chick, that that's the beat that
we want. Hold On I'm Coming. Isaac had the horn,
just a horn lit on that that lick. It put

(29:24):
that down two or three weeks before we even thought
about hold On I'm Coming. Hold On I'm Coming came
one night late we were We left a club after
we were jamming, went to the studio by two thirty night.
I went to the restroom. Isaac was trying to get
me the hurry out of the restroom. I said, hold
On I'm coming then, and I said God, it came
out of the room. Twenty minutes later we wrote hold

(29:44):
On I'm Coming. The drum pattern we did all.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
That's the movie story. That's the God's true.

Speaker 5 (29:54):
It is the deal.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
I've already seen that acted out in a whole.

Speaker 5 (29:59):
Isaac records happen because of the inner spirits inside of
the creative juices that came, not from somebody doing sitting
down and write a charge from it, but somebody giving
the people the answers or where the songs were in
the individuality was only magnified through that.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Okay, then I gotta ask you this question. Okay, you
guys have this like ten minute song on presenting Isaac
Hay's called I Want to Make Love to You, and
it is one of the most ambitious arrangements I've ever heard.
It's like part jazz, part blues, part serious soul, part comedy.

(30:36):
But there's so many parts to this song. So if
it's not notated, like how for these like extravagant arrangements
that you guys are doing, because it's not just like
here's the A part, here's the B part, here's the
A part, here's the B part, here's the coda. Like
you guys are writing these like extravagant arrangements, Like how

(30:58):
are they able to maintain that memory of what to
do if you guys aren't notating that stuff?

Speaker 5 (31:05):
Well, first place I did, I didn't produce Presenting Isaac Hayes. Okay, right,
but let me tell you because Isaac and I worked
for from the core, I can tell you how the
things that the core foundation of all of the records
was inside of the base patterns. Now there was chance
done on the up end of the chante. Isaac used
and huns. We'd used al Warren Free. I mean we

(31:28):
used cats to put the orchestration on the top. But
that's also coming out of Isaac's head. That's not some guy.
He given the track to it said okay, create the parts.
That's not how that happened. But because there was such
an authenticity of remembering things, all of the RECs from
hold on them coming to soul man, you don't know

(31:48):
those are things that of course, the records was for
two minutes forty seconds long. Your point is, well, how
are you gonna do this on a long, long, long
lung record. Well, on a long, long, long lung record.
If you were inside of the stacks room and you know,
everybody's standing up looking at Isaac and isa is directing
and cueing on the parts, you guys are write down
four balls here, eight balls here, and the cats would

(32:09):
know if you hold up his hand, it's the next
it's the next pense, it's the next pats of whatever
was going to be. So I wasn't in the room
when he was doing it, but I'm sure that the
same kind of processes that I did on The Victim
of the Joke AB but what you rights the same
thing because that's what I did.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
So what are al Bell's basic thoughts when you guys
and I'm I'm going back to Stacks in the sixties,
but I'm just curious, like, when this turns in the
Enterprise and you guys are making serious albums, what are
our Bell's thoughts when some of these album cuts are
seven minutes, thirteen minutes, twenty two minutes.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
Not right friendly at all.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
That's how well I know that the age of FM
radio was sort of like we play longer cuts when
I at least you know, the first five years of
this seventies. But I mean, you guys were almost like
the anti Moodtown, because I know Motown's whole thing was
like has to be three minutes and thirty seconds and
easily digestible. And so was that by design or but.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
That is that is an amazing question because the truth
needs to be told. Isaac was the first to do
the extended creative of the song the very first. The
way that happened was Al bail now was being in
control because Stacks all of the masters that Stax had
recorded Atlantic got those because Jim Stood had signed one

(33:37):
of those funny contracts and didn't realize they'd given the
catalog away. Then Albert l got into the power control
of the company and ultimately end up owning the company.
And so what al did was in order for us
to get back in the move in a competitior Way said, listen,
we got to create product and get an abundant of
product to get out there. He encouraged Easac to do

(33:58):
the album. He encouraged Easa going, Isaac said, because we
were already in the power position. Isaac said, if I'm
gonna do it, I gotta do what I feel I
want to do. El had no idea that isa was
gonna take it there because Isaac always was influenced by
jazz cats. I mean he always, but that wasn't not
the kind of records that we were doing. So when

(34:19):
he'd have the freedom to do it the way he
wanted to do it, we used to go to the
club called Club La Run. We would go there and
just jam before we'd go back to the studio. One
night we were jamming and singing some stuff at the
club to Run. When something is wrong with My Baby
and some of the other songs that we had written
and that they were popular songs we singing, and Isaac
went into a vibe with the substained thing on the

(34:41):
hammonbe three organ that was there and start talking and
he would start talking and the message was on a
song by Glenn Cammell called by the time I get
to Phoenix and Isaac started talking with me standing up
on the stage with him and I knowing what the
heck he's doing, and him start and they were getting

(35:01):
in to listen to him, and he just start making
it longer and longer, and it case he didn't have
it hidden out. It came to him in the natural
way that these lines I'm telling you, and the horn
Patterson came in and he talked the whole thing out
and hit By the time I get the Phoenix with
the bat three loud and whatever, and the cast was
just trying to follow him, which they did. And by

(35:22):
the time he got the opportunity to record and told
alba Al on a second because presiding Heasac Hayes album
did not really work, so on the second he told
me to do it again. Honestly, I want to really do
it the way I want to do it, and that's
why there are four tunes on that album. And the
first motivation was that Thience thing that we did at
the club I run and that was what nineteen minutes

(35:44):
long as something.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Would tape ever run out? Would tape run out at all?

Speaker 5 (35:50):
Well, that didn't know matter, but you know, Isaac would
we would have been in the studio jam and and
we in it with a lot of tracks that would
then and writing songs off later on, just by the
extended part that we didn't use on a record. So
so cats would know that that. And by the time
I get the Phoenix case that had to be a
new real to tape. Guests would know that he was

(36:11):
going to do extended verse. They just did not know
it was going to be that long. So I don't know.
I wasn't in the room on Phoenix, but I can
tell you.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
So can you explain, especially like with with the tension
that's happening in the mid to late sixties, especially in
the civil rights movement, how was it socially, especially with
you know cats like uh, you know, Donald Duck Dunn,
Steve Cropper, like because you know the sound of stacks

(36:42):
even though it's gut bunket soul, gut bucket funk like this.
This is an integrated, intersectional kind of organization with men
and women, black and white, that sort of thing. So
how easy was it now navigating especially with sort of

(37:03):
I guess culminating to King's assassination like in Memphis? What
is the social atmosphere of these white musicians and black
musicians playing together?

Speaker 5 (37:15):
Like what's a work dinner look like inside the street?
Well to a question, if I think I understand correct,
this is this is the interesting thing about that period.
Racism was still rapid during that period, it was still there,
but because Stewart was smart enough to see that the
black contraditional talents were far exceeding where Steve was and

(37:39):
dunk Walls. But these were casts that were able to integrate,
for lack of a better word, into the Bible what
we were doing, because they were able to listen to
where we were coming from. And it was it was
showed that the possibility of seriously making some money until
they were there was a willingness to follow the lead
of the black towns. And when I say say that,

(38:00):
when you could see there's Booker T. Jones in that
in the combination of talent, we called it the Big Six.
That was Al Jackson Junior in that combination of talent.
That was Isaac Hayes in a combination of talents. That
was David Porter in the cumination of talents. And here
is Steve and Duck. And the leading parts was either

(38:22):
coming from Booker or from Isaac, or from I or
from l as relates to where a lot of the
originality come from the abilities to a depth and to
be affecting with it was coming out of the rhythmic
treaties that Cropper would bring to many of the songs,
and Duck would was amazing at remembery and containing the
patterns and giving you the right kund of imagy for that.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
Like what about once y'all left the studio, Because like
you said, y'all were the leaders in the individualities, but
y'all couldn't eat in the same places, stay in the
same places, and that.

Speaker 5 (38:53):
That is so so true, And then we didn't make
a norm of that. They would go to a place
called the Four Way Green with us, which was a
black restaurant on the Mississippi Walker. And when we wanted
to really eat together, we would go to the Four
Way Grill, and in the Four Way Grill, if you
read the history of it, that was also the place

(39:14):
where doctor King would go. That's also a place where
Jesse Jackson would go. At the front of the four
Way is the door. People would come in from the street,
but they had a back entrance at the back of
the door. James Brown and a lot of folk we
would go in the back door there and we would
eat some of the best soul for which you ever
want to have. But that was a place when we

(39:36):
would do I was a vocalist Boogleton MG's on the
road playing the College Circuit. To your point, we'd get
in the car. We didn't this is booker ten MG's well,
we do sessions with We worked at the College Circum.
On the weekend, we'd get in the car and go
play gigs and we had a lot of This is
where we could not get in the hotel in a
in a real comfortable kind of way. We'd go and
play the gig on the College State, come back and

(39:57):
be in the studio on Monday. So it wasn't it
wasn't kind of thing where you'd see a lot of
let's go out and hang out together. There were black
clubs and they were white clubs, and that was still
going on in Memphis by the time you went into
the Stax rooms to do the work. It was a
unity there, but it was also a willingness to follow
the lead of the black talents who was really making
the thing. And that's why the magic came from an

(40:19):
Otis Redding, who showed everybody what all of that meant
what I just said, because there was no one who
could do it to the degree that Otis could do it.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Did you personally feel some sort of way when like
your sound and your formula are being used by other
Memphis Like in other words, like if you were to
if anyone were to listen to like Let's Stay Together, Yeah,
you know, the sound of the brass band in the
front and the basic gut bucket groove of that song.

(40:54):
You know, someone to say to me like, oh, that's
probably Stax Records or something like that. And you know,
even though you guys are in proximity of each other
in terms of mileage, like I'm certain that Willie and
his organization were way different. Might be like one or
two musicians that are the same. Are you guys feeling
some sort of way that, like the sound that you

(41:15):
helped make the Blueprint Architects is sort of now being
even outside of Memphis, because I'm certain that you know,
there's the Cats and Muscle Souls are also I'm thinking
that they too, are you know, Memphis based and whatnot, Like,
especially with the work they were doing with the Refit like,
did you feel some sort of way when your sound

(41:37):
is sort of like identified with that whole region but
some of those things that you had nothing to do with,
it just sounds like you did.

Speaker 5 (41:48):
Well. The beautiful thing about it is we have so
many artists that we have to use other rooms to
do that. The reason that Muscle showed a sound became
revered as it did was because we sent so many
arts this there so many many artists there.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
How far was Muscle Souls from Memphis?

Speaker 5 (42:05):
Maybe maybe a little bit more than to our drive?

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I mean, I.

Speaker 5 (42:11):
Don't know if you're familiar with the album that I
did that that has the victim of the joke, the
song the Masquerade is over.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Wait time out all right?

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Okay, are you really asking us right now? We know
I'm afraid the Masquerade is over.

Speaker 5 (42:28):
But but but that quest that's a huge kind of
things you mentioned earlier about hair stuff. That's one of
those kind of things. I had a mic going around
room with the head says going in the home and
lincense to catch the play. But but but that's also
one of the dumbest mistakes I made because the second
half of it, which has nothing at all to do
with the original song which I was given the head

(42:49):
arranged to and that's where all the samples came from.
Do you know how many millions of dollars I gave
away with that? All of those those how many that's
no story. But but but so we're going.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
To ask about that too.

Speaker 5 (43:00):
But but but but uh, but muscle shows was so
many ars, Johnny Taylor of the Staple Singers color the
emotions so many that we we went to the rooman
cut what Willie was doing over a high that's Andrew
Love and Wayne Jackson. The horn section. A lot of
the patterns, and I can show you some patterns that

(43:21):
the guys already forgot that we had already did the
patterns on the track over there, and they got into
whatever on the al track. And there's a line that
we did on this man, what the heck? You so?
But but we were, we were so so unified and
and the magic that was happening out of Memphis. There
was no animosity or anger toward what WILLI was doing,

(43:43):
nor was that coming from really what we were doing.
We were just simply happy that all of the stuff
was connected, and then that there was magic with our Green.
The magic with our Green was reminiscent of the magic
that we felt when we lost over this ring. So
there was a joe and the happiness. And then when
he Willie come up with a record been great, like
I can't stand the rain, I mean just great, great, great,

(44:05):
great music. So there was there was no it was
in a lot. Some of the players were the same.
It was that kind of spirit in Memphis during that time.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
At any point, was Al Green ever going to go
to your direction to stacks at any point or just
he immediately went to high.

Speaker 5 (44:26):
No, No, WILLI wi WILLI discovered L.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
But did you know about him before Willie discovered him?

Speaker 5 (44:32):
No? No, I don't think it was nobody. No, that
was Willie. Willie. WILLI heard something in him and and
took him to a space. L didn't believe he was.
Al was a hard singer. Willie forced him to find
the identity thing that I was talking about. WILLI forced
l to find that thing. That thing for.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
The way he's singing on his first album is back
up Train Yes into the.

Speaker 5 (45:00):
Vamp of love and Happiness, and you'll see that's where
Al really is really control how Al found himself. And
then when Al really found himself, then Air magnified the
persona of what that should be. And that's why some
of those vocals that he would do on those songs
were just crazy because he was having so much fun

(45:22):
in discovering new nonsense inside of what he was doing
that was even fresher than he even imagined. I would imagine.
He just he became unbelievable. The same thing was happening
with Otis as well, Johnny Taylor as well.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Can you tell me or recall the experience of hearing
what happened to Otis Redding and the original barcas well.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
Let me first first said this, because this is this
is this is an interesting story. When Otis came to
Memphis to record on the Doctor the Bay my office
at the Stacks Building. The door to the office was
on the street, because by then we had bought the
other location. There was a cafe next door to the theater,
and there was some other things on the other side,

(46:14):
and there was a grocery store on the other side.
We had bought all of that and converted that into
part of the space. Otis came into the room in
my office. He said, I want you to hear a
song and tell me what you think about it, because
he you know, he there was a miser respect there.
So he came and he sang with an acoustic guitar, openstright, acoustic,

(46:36):
and he sang Sitting on the Dock of the Bay
to me the whole song, and he said, what you think.
I said, well, I think you are to make the
first verse the last verse, and the last verse the
first verse, because the story says so better than he
really thinks he is. He went into the studio and
recorded Sitting on the Doctor of the Bay. Now it
was not complete because he had a plane to catch,

(46:58):
and he then left Memphis, got on did his flight.
I was, as I mentioned the vocals book of tenmg's
That weekend we flew to Ohio and played a cottage
up there in n OHI up there. So we had
finished the gig, were in the airport. I get a
call from my wife at the time. I get a

(47:22):
call saying that first said that Otis Ready was in
an airplane crash. And I said, I couldn't believe. I said, no,
what do you? And I didn't believe it, and she
reinforced it in a real emotional way to me. And
I told the guys that I was told. When I

(47:44):
told the guys that, and we were getting ready to
catch a plane to come back to Memphis when we
found out. So we were coming from a gig Otis
was going they were going to another gig. In the
devastation of finding out about that was when we were
on another gig. Matter of fact, it's in I think
I want to say it say Booker T's book. If

(48:04):
you read Booker talks about it as well, that's that's
that's when that was found out.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Did you did you know James Alexander, Well, uh, the
basis of the bar kays, Well.

Speaker 5 (48:16):
Then you don't know the story about how the record
cut came about. They had a record, a track that
they had and it was just a track. Isaac and
I went into the room. It was a track. Jim
Stood was standing over there listening to it. Didn't know
what they what it was. Then called it they was.
They played the track for us. Isaac Hayes came up

(48:37):
with the title soul Finger. I said, let's put some
kids on the record. I went outside and got twenty
five or thirty kids. Bought him in the room, got
two cases of coke, asked James, James Alexander, when you
interviewed him about this story, got two cases of coke,
gave him the Coca cone. I directed them like a choir.
Every time I raised my hand and do this, you

(48:57):
scream soul finger. And then when I do this, say
so and and so. Isaac gave the title soul thing
for the record. I put the kids on it. That's
that's the record. So James Alexander definitely knows. David Porter
and Isaac Cay's definitely does that the getting jigging record.
But no, no, no no, I did on the barcades,

(49:20):
gave them. I did a head range, gave them fifty
percent of the song. But I came up with it.
Put the kids the same thing again. I got kiss
off the street. I directed him like a que and
had him singing.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
No, no, no, and did the track of the Barcades
singing dance right.

Speaker 5 (49:34):
The singing dance so real close to James.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
I've always been curious and you know he's he's definitely,
he's definitely like one of our buckets, bucket list guests
that we want to get. Just let me know, oh
please that that's him and Jazzy fake like James.

Speaker 5 (49:53):
Lay on the floor in the studio if.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Really yeah, do you know like how he was able
to bounce back and start the group all over again,
and just how he felt because I believe the story
is that I don't know if it was a coin
flippant or not. The thing was that only a certain
amount of people could fit on the plane. I believe

(50:17):
the legend is that James Alexander is like, look, I'll
just catch a commercial flight and him.

Speaker 5 (50:22):
And Carl did that another not not not Carl Kunaham,
but another car. Carl Siums did that cause Carl sum
was going to go with it, and James and Carlsiums
did that. That's that's true, Okay, it was ah something
like that, whatever the number sixs was. But James and
Carl couldn't get on it, and James took a commercial flight.
That's true. James was the one that was asked to go,

(50:45):
and because the Elma didn't want to, she wasn't the
most able to do it. James was the one that
went to identifi Otist.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
I know that was such a devastating loss to the label.
Like how are you guys, especially with the transition of
you know, moving into the seventies and whatnot, can you
explain just the feeling at the time, like especially post
King by the time the seventies comes, Like what are
you feeling in terms of like where music is or

(51:17):
where STAX is as an organization, to really.

Speaker 5 (51:21):
Appreciate the energy that Otis brought to our environment. Otis
was a driver for another guy that was being recorded
at the time. Otis came in as his driver. Otis
pleaded with Al Jackson's junior to would someone take a
listen to him? Sing? Al told Steve give if you

(51:45):
got a minute, man, people that already was leaving and
already left, would you take a listen to this guy?
He just wanted somebody to listen to him. Otis Redding
saying these arms of mind with Steve cropper who is
not a piano player, playing tribuus on the piano, and
the rest is history for Otis. Ready then, because no

(52:09):
one understood Oldis better than Otis, because Otis was a
huge fan of Little Richard. If you listen to the
B side of These Arms of Mine, you're gonna think
it's Little Richard because that's where Otis was. But the
These Arms of Mine song Otis showed where he was,
and that was the thing that resonated inside of that room.

(52:31):
And no one could do that but Otis, and Otis
was given the lead way to show where that came from.
And then Otis was the one that started really magnifying
the head Arrangers kind of vibe or what ultam became
the cornerstone of everything we did there. So the loss
of Otis created a kind of emotional kind of devastation

(52:52):
to all of us that it's no way to explain
the level of it, because then we began to feel
what could have been with the magic that was coming
from this man. I mean, he would go in the
studio in this like fastest get up, would be able
to come up with all these parts and these tracks
and just do them and then go on the mic

(53:15):
and make up the song on the mic. That's me
saying homedy with him.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
I was gonna ask you about that.

Speaker 5 (53:22):
Yeah, yeah, but that's that's im. I didn't know when
it comes, he says, I said this when you're gonna
come in, he said, you feel it, And it was like,
but that's the magic of this this god.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
The thing is that Otis Redding was twenty seven when
he died. Was it that typical for during the time
that you guys have between the age of what twenty
he came to you, twenty three or twenty four?

Speaker 5 (53:50):
I don't, I can't.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
You could be right, yeah, twenty three, twenty four.

Speaker 5 (53:54):
Twinters, but I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Like, were you guys saying to yourselves back then, like
this guy has a way older voice than what his
age allows. Or was it just the stress of living
in that time just brought that age and that experience
on your typical singer back then.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
When you listen to the B side of as mentioned,
of these ums of mine and you hear Otis there,
and you listen to what Otis was doing, Otis was
so brilliant as far as seeming in the individuality that
magnified with people, so you could talk to Otis and yeah,
how you doing. Everything's fine? Then he said you can't,

(54:33):
you know, I mean all of this was with a
purpose aim at locking you in to the persona that
was Otis Ready. There was no Otis didn't talk like that. Job.
So that was a character you better believe it was.
But he also perfected it in such a way that
the uniqueness of him because he would stumble up on

(54:53):
other things that he would do, because and he's making
up things on the microphone as well. It's just.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
That was a character, even on tramp where he's like talking.

Speaker 5 (55:04):
On country like, bro's real what I'm telling you? This
man was brilliant and and and the Brians were manifested
in some of the patterns that the guests were able
to play, which was motivating Isaac and I to get
better with our patterns I Thank You. The record on

(55:24):
I Thank You was motivated out of Otis reading I
went there at Tennessee Walker horses on the drums. Now,
just the magic of Otis Ready and seeing what he
would do in the room was the catalyst for so
much of what happened through all of us. And and
so us trying to find our traction to get into

(55:46):
the ballpark. Of that was to your point about a
little bit of the decline before people were getting to
find their way. That was part of it. We had
lost the magic marker for for what we could ultimately
be when we lost that guy.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Who do you think he was trying to emulate since
that wasn't his natural voice?

Speaker 5 (56:03):
Otis ready When I say that individuality was the cornerstone
of the magic of what was happening in the stacks,
I'm saying that that became the signature thought for everybody
on every record. William Bale his records in the Sweetness,
said Booker, and William wrote and the songs everybody loves
one of those songs, that's William going into a character
that's one of my best buddies to this day. That's

(56:26):
also inside of the character of where he know his
slot was.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Yeah, what you're saying is people there were alter egos
before there were Sasha fears. That's what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
You know what, I'm learning that right now because I
just found an interview with Bobby Woomeck talking about Slive recording.
There's a ride going on, you know, one of the
questions I had about Sly was like, well, how come.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
The voice of slies on that record.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Where he's like clear as day on his record, and
Bobby was just like, man, Sly's an actor. He was
just fucking around, And I see now, like, I don't know,
it's just that to me, just that voice is so seasoned,
like it just and again, like I heard that voice

(57:18):
when I was ten, so I just thought, that's like
my grandfather's voice. So when I found out he was,
you know, I'm thinking twenty seven, I'm thinking, you know,
like Chris Brown's voice or bad era Michael Jackson voice
like sounds like young, but he just sounds so old
and seasoned. I just thought that was unusual.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
I came from a period where people who looked like
me in order to connect in a market that didn't
handle all the access of internet all those kinds of things,
had to find a way to make the possibilities of
that more real. And the best way to do that,
based on the evidence of time, was to find the
individualalitor created an s's of weakness for you, And inside

(58:02):
of that kind of thought process was the desire to
find that. And in many instances when people would find that,
they would find themselves and they would know where that
pocket was. Bobby Womack Ship's moment left Stax Records when
Stacks went Satellite turned into Stax and Ships went to
a place called American Studios. And because Bobby couldn't get
into Stax Records, where did he go? In Memphis, Tennessee?

(58:26):
Bobby went to American Studios. And if you go by
the early music of Bobby Womack, you'll find out that
Bobby Womack was in Memphis, Tennessee recording over there, Danny
Thomas and Chelsea at Chips Woman Studio. Check it out.
And so look when we did gigs, and I'll say this,
and when we did gigs on the college circuit, and

(58:48):
we'd go and do these gigs. Some of these white
colleges would have two acts performing. Some of these appearances
were book of tnmg's on one end of the floor.
Because they didn't know that Booker had a vocalist, which
was me. They would hire another group to sing and perform.
Who did they have one of those gigs and this

(59:09):
was a guy became a buddy of mine. They hired
the Osen Brothers, who was playing good time for the
brothers in these college dates, Jimmy Henry, who came to
Memphis with me to try to get some gigs and
sessions with me in Stat's records, Jimmy Henrix, So all
of this, all of this speaks to people understanding that

(59:31):
they had to find an individual that gave them an
end to where they wanted to go. Jimmy is another
essence and example of that because he was a bad mother,
shit your mouth playing bro. But when he got when
he got time for him to find him, he knew
how to integrate those nuances that became the rock thing
and going to that whole look. He knew how to

(59:51):
do that and he did it to the bone.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
So you're basically saying that rap music isn't the only
genre in which on one's everyday voice out sewing Carter.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
And jay Z is you have to be a character.
I just thought that was hip.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Hop, But the land of make Believe didn't start with
hip hop.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
All nuances of what, in my opinion, many of those
talents got to where they got to was realizing that
James Brown seemed like sound like James Brown, and Teddy
Pendergrass sounded like Teddy Pendergrass and somewhere in between that
sly Stones sound like sly and somewhere in between that

(01:00:38):
you go, you can go down the line. And the
magic habit when people perfected the essences of who they
were with the purity of an emotional connecting way to
an audience, and that was where the magic was. And
so I think that when you found all these records
happening on the Tonic and Cat's trying to find a

(01:00:59):
way to treat their boys to make themselves sound whatever
they're doing, they got that undernose to them possible of
the influences that came through their grandmama, the uncle or whatever,
talking about how they like I like that James Brown.
I was like, why y'all doing that kind of stuff?
And then they found a way to make it work
for them, and they make it work to the Hill
and so Nas and these other kids. And they told

(01:01:19):
me that that that you mentioned who shot you which
which which my guy Bigger did do. But they told
me biggest audition tape was a song of mine and
writing I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Forget Lyone Alley Yeah came.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
To Memphis to interview me and he told me that
I said, I, what are you talking, He said, no,
his audition was I never heard that, and so so
by the time I unt I heard it was who
shot you? So But the point I'm just saying, they
were looking for for ways to find the individuality that
was uniquely them and they've perfected. So when I listened

(01:01:54):
to Biggie and hear where he was coming from, and
then I listened to Kendrick to say what I'm saying,
this is because they all found a way to find
the magic within the said you mentioned day. They all
find a way to do that. Those who become effected
with it. As soon as they get the pocket of money,
they moved to the heels. But it's wrong with that,

(01:02:14):
and not I'm wrong with that, but that's real.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Well, well, let's Steve ask this question because I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
I forgot my question.

Speaker 7 (01:02:26):
The story you mentioned earlier about sitting on the dock
of the bay that it was unfinished. Did you oversee
the finishing of that song or how did that get finished?

Speaker 5 (01:02:35):
No, proper did that, Steve did that?

Speaker 6 (01:02:38):
So what had to be recorded after his accident.

Speaker 5 (01:02:43):
Wasn't in the session. You know, all this is that
sing the song to me when he came to my office,
and then I just gave him that that suggestion. Then
he went in the studio and recorded. You know, I
don't know to what degree it was. It was not finished.
I really don't.

Speaker 7 (01:02:57):
All right, Well, I have a follow up question then
about Hendrix. Why didn't Stacks sign Hendrix? Or I'm trying
to imagine Jimmy Hendrix as a Stacks artist or what
that would be like.

Speaker 6 (01:03:10):
Was there any talk guy?

Speaker 5 (01:03:12):
You know, he wasn't Jimmy Hendrix at the time. He
was trying to get on successions. There was no essence
of of of Jimmy being Jimmy at the time, gotcha, Yeah, yeah,
But and then then Steve had a lock on the studio.
Being honest with you, he wasn't easy to get get
in some sessions, you know, and he just came to

(01:03:34):
see if he could.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
How many studios were in total? Rooms?

Speaker 5 (01:03:38):
Well, there eventually became three rooms in there, A B,
and C, but it was a while before we got B.
It was it was a while before we got that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
So what's scheduling like?

Speaker 5 (01:03:50):
It was crazy. We ended up, as I mentioned before,
having it to do bookings that wasn't a place in
muscle shows.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Muscle Okay, I get it now.

Speaker 5 (01:03:58):
Jackson, Mississippi. We did some bookings, you know, we ended
up because they had so many acts to do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Was Nashville ever an option? Like was did Nashville have
any potential of having flavor?

Speaker 5 (01:04:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:04:13):
As about that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Or nah?

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
So do you feel that it's funny?

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
I'm like, I know you know about the gout to
ask about the Black Music Museum Becau's only one black
music museum in the country, and it's in Nashville. But
it's it's it's supposed to feel like a situation where
to make folks come. Do you feel like that or
do you feel like that it should be it should
be a Memphis.

Speaker 5 (01:04:39):
It should have been Memphis. But but honestly, Henry Hicks Uh,
the guy who came to message before was built, and
we met on all that stuff, and I supported him
in the effort because it's difficult for me to believe
it actually happened in Nashville. If you know Nashville, believe that.
But he pulled it off mm hmm, and he got Uh.

(01:05:02):
He honored Patty Leabell, Teddy Rodder, Kirk Franklin and myself
as a program that we did there several years ago
as he was bringing note the ride and disability to it,
he would bring several artists that talk about Nashville or whatever,
and that's and that was part of the surprise for
me to see that he was a brother that was

(01:05:23):
really believing he was gonna pull it together and he did.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Oh yeah him and quite a few people shouts at
Deanna Williams too, and Big John Platt is a nice
community of folks that are involved in Yeah, that play
special and where it's placed, like right in downtown in
the face of like the opre it's like you we
here right.

Speaker 5 (01:05:40):
Yeah, So I give I give I give those guys
credit for pulling off something that one I found a
difficult believe that would ever be, but also the level
of it being that that it is. I mean, it's beautiful.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
I want to ask you, David about you You talk
about characters and you know, the singers and everybody wanted
to be individual. Rufus Thomas, man, what was what was
he like? I thought I loved him. I mean, I
watch Stacks was all I saw him on. But yeah,
what was he like?

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Just as an.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
Read it book, if you told Rufus Thomas that he
wasn't an artist. He'd cut you out. Rufus knew that
he could go into a song that really magnified marketability
for himself. If you try to get in the saying
saying he was not what you think in terms of that.

(01:06:35):
But when he was saying one of his original compositions,
he could sing say because no one could do it
better than he could, and he could sell it in
such a way that that was it was magic. He was.
He was extremely confident man. He was up in age
when he started recording. He was, but he was extremely confident,

(01:06:56):
and he also felt that he wanted to be able
to compete with Sam Dave or ODIs or whoever was
on the stage. So he was he found a way
to get outfits even though he wasn't getting paid the
kind of money the others were getting paid on the gigs.
But you can tell that because every time he hit
the stage, he'd be shoppings, sharp could beat and when
he going too his thing, he could do it to him.
And so but that was because he just he just

(01:07:18):
knew where his niche was and he refected us. We
talked about earlier, the individuality that was powerful for.

Speaker 4 (01:07:24):
Him Carla was his daughter?

Speaker 5 (01:07:25):
Correct, Carla was his daughter?

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
How was it when she came along? How did that work?

Speaker 5 (01:07:29):
Well? Carla came along at a time when when Jimster
recorded Rufus and Colin or a record called Cass I
Love It, which they said it was a hit, but
it really was the marginal kind of record. But Jim
saw something in Carla and asked her if she had
any original songs, and she had a song called Gee Whiz,
and Coler paid a little piano and Cola recorded Ge Whiz.

(01:07:50):
It really became the dome the for stacks and the
relationship with Atlantic Records. That initiated the really power of
the deal for us, and that was what that was.
And then Isaaca and I had the biggest record on
Calling because we wrote a song called b A b
Y and we produced that on Calling and that was
her biggest record. But yeah, no, she she was. She

(01:08:13):
did some some some stuff and the record with as
quest mentioned with Trump, was she oldest? Brought out another
kind of person on that. It's very fact.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
We talked about soul Man, but there's a whole like
barge of classic songs. I'm just gonna name something. Can
you recall the stories of how or tell me what
the songwriting processes for some of these songs, like when
Something's Wrong with My Baby?

Speaker 5 (01:08:42):
Yeah, I was. I was. I was a managed boy
and got a girl pregnant high school and my mama said,
you got married, and I married? Uh, nineteen years old,
I married him. And so I'm living been with a
kid and fantasizing as I'm trying to get the music

(01:09:05):
bus as an effective way. I'm about love and what
would be the power love? Because the young lady didn't
love me and I didn't love her, but but we
had a kid, and so I would dream about babies
and so just I would have a pad up under
the bed, which I still do that when a right.
And sometimes I'd wake up with a thought and the

(01:09:26):
idea and I would write it down. When something is
Wrong with my Baby was one of those ideas that
I woke up in the dream, wrote, wrote the title down,
got up, wrote the whole song out. Carl Isaac. We
couldn't get into the studio, As I mentioned, we didn't
have a lot of rooms at this time. Couldn't get
in the studio. We went over to Sidney Kirk's house
one of Isaac's friend got his piano wrote when Something

(01:09:47):
Is Wrong with My Baby in about twenty five thirty
minutes because they had the melody already in the head.
And the rest is history with that song. But that
was like when I mentioned the titles Isaac, he said, man,
I love that, and we wrote it. So Man came
about just as equally because Isaac heard something out of
Detroit and said, man, we need to write a song
called soul Man, and then here comes sol Man. We're

(01:10:09):
talking us. We wanted to be a motivational song for
our community. So I talked about getting an education. I
was educated at Woodstock. I was brought up on the science.
We talked about. I'm the beginning the whole manifestation of
motivating people, the double meaning of soul Man in the
Woodstock line in there. That was before the festival Woodstock,
and when Bluci and Akro was saying, people thought that

(01:10:30):
we had Woodstock. Woodstock was a county school in Memphis.
But but all of those things came about with us
trying to think of ways to make ideas that people
can relate to, but also a motivational for people inside
of the subliminal message in our writings, and that's what
we were.

Speaker 4 (01:10:49):
Doing when you and when you and Isaac worked together.
How did y'all work?

Speaker 6 (01:10:53):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:10:53):
Did you were you on piano? Was he on piano?
Or were you more lyrics Isaac.

Speaker 5 (01:10:58):
Was on piano. I started out as allows the trumpet player,
to start trying to play trumpet in high school and
wanted to be a singing star. Mauric went the drama
in high school and Booker was below us in high school,
and so I started thinking I was this great great
singing and put down the instruments. And so by the
time Isaac and I got together, I understood melodically how

(01:11:19):
to do exactly what we needed to do lyrically how
to do that. And Isaac we started out, I just
started up playing trippers on the piano before we started,
just stretching himself to do all he could do. And
all of a sudden, he started discovering things that he
would hear inside of his head, which is where the
head arrange the came. And I started finding things I
would hear inside of my head. And then when we would
sit down to write a song or come up with

(01:11:40):
an idea, if we had to put some piece of
something down on another tape to use it as a
reference for something possibility. We would then sit down and
create the songs right from stretch. Right at that point
we'd schedule or writing. We'd go and do a gig
at a club or something like that and come to
the studio and just start writing, and we would do
that artist to artist, song to song individualities and being

(01:12:04):
a blue song on Johnny Taylor, a blue song on Abbath,
king of a Lover, song on a Soul Children, a
pretty song on the Emotions, a flat down song on
Sam and that. We focused on doing it the way
we felt the inside of the room. But it was Jilly,
Isaac and I were sitting at the piano, me coming
up with the melodies and the lyrics of the song,

(01:12:26):
singing the song, and we're coming up with a musical
direction that we would go inside of that. The head
arranging part of that comes, so we would go into
the room. We talk about the concept of it if
we wanted to hold on them coming. It was one
of those examples where he had had had a horn
pattern down weeks before and we talked about coming up
with this idea. After I came out of the restroom,
and then we talked about an idea about Superman, a

(01:12:47):
resking kind of thing and a motivation for people, and
that was what the thought was. And once we said that,
twenty minutes later we had the song don't you Ever
Feel Sad? But you know, I mean when the times
of bad to day comes, you're down trouble in about
the drown hold on I'm coming. And we talked about
the unity and the bond between people with that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
When you were recalling the story of Something's Wrong with
My Baby, for half a second, I was like, oh God,
this isn't a love song. He's talking about his newborn
kid being sick. And I was like, wait, where's he
about to go with this story? Like that's what it
means literally a baby?

Speaker 5 (01:13:31):
No. Now, I was trying to think about what it'd
be like they had a real woman that I could
really feel all of that for.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
I feel you, I believe. In ninety one ninety two,
back when the idea of a box set was a
novel idea, these eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve CD sets
like a history of a label started happening for the
record industry because literally, if you buy the Stacks box set,
from nineteen ninety one. You can hear the entire history

(01:13:56):
of the Wu Tang clan. I want to know, have
you ever met the Riza and what were your initial
thoughts in the mid nineties when suddenly the thing about
Riza and his sampling method is it was even jarring.
I don't know if I can speak for Liah, Steve

(01:14:18):
or Fante, but his level of sampling was really jarring,
Like like, I'm very familiar with the sweet inspirations like
Why Mary and all that stuff, and so just the
just the very unorthodox way that he sampled that Why
Mary is a criminology.

Speaker 4 (01:14:38):
I knew it was always different with Rizza.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
I knew it was never you can't it ain't easy.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
It was never easy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
That's and he wasn't.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
He wasn't afraid to use voices either, like he would
a lot generally when you would chop samples, you would
try to get out of the vocal. You know what
I'm saying. He would almost intentionally like incorporate the vocal use.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Yeah, it was very so when you're hearing like or
I guess you know that you have to get permission.
I don't know what the process is like if your
publisher just says, hey, I give a permission, or they
got to go to the songwriter. Sometimes we got to
have a conversation with the songwriter. Sometimes it's just like, yeah,
you could clear it. But when when your work starts

(01:15:16):
getting a lot of traction in the early to mid
nineties with Biggie, with even Mop, with Annie Up Soul,
Sister Brown Sugar, I believe yeah, yeah, Like what are
you feeling? Is are you feeling like to change I'm back?
Or is it like wait, I didn't intend my songs

(01:15:39):
to sound like this, Like what are they doing?

Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
The respect for the creative process was something that I'm
marveled at. I know Isaac marvel it and the fact
that I just simply felt good they found an interesting
way to interpret something that I was on the creation of.
When Rizza and I met Rizza Mett, I've been even
introduced him on some shows and soff and he's come

(01:16:04):
to my studio and everything, and just the level of
respect that those guys head for the catalog was just
amazing to me. But also find the interesting ways they
found to interpret the song like Cream, I mean, like
I mean, come on, you know, wait, let me.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
Inter up to you because I got a question with
as long as I Got You? Maybe maybe like four
five years ago actually, I think during the Motions episode
I played it. The Emotions have a version of as
Long as I Got You, which is even funkier. It
sounds like a demo. Why wasn't that version ever released?

Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Because it probably sounded like the demo that you're talking about.
You know, I really, I really don't even remember the
Emotion's version. You know how embarrassed that is for me
to say that, because I'm you.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
Got too ate over two thousand songs, like we will forgive
you for forgetting one.

Speaker 5 (01:17:04):
Remember everything's say here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
But again, you you've done over two thousand songs, so
you can forget a few.

Speaker 5 (01:17:11):
But but the version that we did with the Chameles,
Isaac was was uh. I don't want to bust him out,
but he was. He was a little romandoumly fascinated with
one of the girls with that. Because we weren't even
they were not looked upon it as an act that
we're gonna let's go into and we're gonna record this
s group called the Chameles. We knew them Mary and

(01:17:32):
And and Milk. We knew them, but when Isaac come
he said, man, we ought to record record them? He said,
what he said, Well, so we did. And one of
the banner things that we did, the one banner thing
that we did that I just s marvel. It was

(01:17:53):
as long as I got you. And that was also
one of those things that we naturally felled the power of.
And when we just wrote the song and then Barbara,
who is the least singer of it, her text on
it was amazing. Isaak is singing background on some of
the parts in the record. Wow, that's not all the

(01:18:13):
girl was saying, so so so it's it's It was
one of those things that I was shocked at how
it ended up being sampled so much. Even the Nicole
bus sample of it. I mean, that's Barbara singing that
part of it on the record. That's the actual record
on on you on the cod Okay section of it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
You know, we gotta mention you've also worked with the
legendary Cissy Houston and the Sweet Inspirations.

Speaker 5 (01:18:43):
Not Cissy but but the Sweetest Races because Sissy wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
She left the group at the time.

Speaker 5 (01:18:48):
Yeah, she left the group at the time. Yeah, if
it was three of them at the time. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Sissy wasn't with them, and and wishes and dishes and
and you're wrong when you're don't get it at the
home of those songs and sisters not on that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
So were the Emotions the only group that weren't necessarily
quote unquote homegrown. Was the main protocol of Stax Records
to just have like Memphis Homegroom talent or like, how
did do you know how the Emotions came to the
label and what was it like working with them?

Speaker 5 (01:19:21):
Hervis Staples bought the Emotions to us.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Oh okay, all right.

Speaker 5 (01:19:24):
Yeah, and he brought him to Isaac and I and
they were very very young, sixteen years old, very very young.
Sheila was younger than sixteen. Well I think Wonder was
the oldest one, I believe, right. But Purvis bought them
to Isaac and I take a listen to and their
father was Joe was like a little guitar player. He

(01:19:45):
wanted to be a part of the group. He was
their father. And so we listened to them and we
said that Joe wanted to be a part of the
group because he was impressed with you know, Pop Staples.
You know with the Staples, and so we said if
we would do them, we'd have to do just the girls,
and so we did the Girl but but purpose was

(01:20:06):
the one that brought them to us. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Okay, so you you mentioned it earlier. I was saving
it for now, but you gotta tell me, like, what
is the story behind I'm afraid the Masquerade is over?

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Because every time I.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
Yo, every time I have a breakup, like just that
is one of the saddest songs ever. And now and
that's another example of like they're crazy arrangements in that song.
And now that you're telling me that you guys are
going on phillion and all that stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:20:39):
And iterant, I'm walking around the room to tell what was.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
The genesis of that song?

Speaker 5 (01:20:46):
Actually behind the second album which had hang On Sloopy
on it. I don't know if you ever heard that. Yeah, yeah,
but I didn't quite hit the mark with hang On Sloopy,
But I like the concept that I had would hang
on stupid. So when I came up with the concept
of creating acting scenes inside of the next project, I

(01:21:09):
knew I was going to create something different. So I
wanted to have acting scenes.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
Who is who's the woman? Who's the woman that was one.

Speaker 5 (01:21:18):
Of my secretary but also my wife. My second wife
was also in that. That's that when the card scene,
I come up running, Uh, that's my second wife. The
girl I'm talking to about the girl, yeah that I'm
fascinated with the girl that was actually my wife.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
Wait time, now there's two women on that song.

Speaker 5 (01:21:41):
Yeah. Well, if you go to the very beginning not
note on that song. If you go to the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Of the album, yes, I don't know that I want yes.

Speaker 5 (01:21:48):
Yeah, And and I go you open the door, and
I go into this party and I'm talking, well, the
girl that's talking to me about the other girl that
was my way. I wrote off the story as I
would go, and I then selected the songs that would
fit the concept of where I was going to take

(01:22:11):
the story to. If you noticed the last song on
it was Airplane Ticket Bus Ride, Can I Borrow Your Car?
I wrote that at the last minute because I had
gone through the whole storyline and didn't have the closed
out song. But the Masqueraders overcame about where I wanted
to create something that gave the essences of all the

(01:22:31):
things that are having prior to that period in the
album where this acting scenes. So if you notice the
breakdown comes and I started rapping, well, I didn't have
it written out. I knew the concept. I didn't have
the rap written out on that song. I knew the
concept and I talked the concept after I did the

(01:22:53):
head arrangers for the parts.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
So you're singing it as the band sort of reading
your face at the same time.

Speaker 5 (01:22:59):
No, no, I did the track first. In my mind,
I'm looking at I'm going through the motion of this,
feel inside of the various transitions. That's why the piano
part that's running playing the piano, I'm humming the piano
part for running to play the signature has been saving
all this time. That's one of those things where a

(01:23:19):
piano player and that's what we want to play more.
Just play that and stop just that and when I
clue you stop on that. That's what that was. But
so so after that was done, now I get rid
of the sing the song. Now I do the rap,
and I'm feeling where the parts are before I do
the horns, and I'm feeling all of that and I'm

(01:23:42):
making I promise you, I'm making it up come to
an extended part, not the actually gotter song. I'm making
it up the whole time because I know where the
storyline is going to ultimately end up and where it's
gonna lead to make song.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
But not that I ever counted bars.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
But in your mind you're like, Okay, we're gonna do
thirty two bars of a break and I'll figure out
something to say in these thirty two bars. No, and
then it's over, like you.

Speaker 5 (01:24:10):
Know now what I know? By kind Bob, we do that,
but not on this song. I said you got. I'm
walking around the room talking in the microphone, directing cats
in the microphone. I'm going around the room while the
track is while I've got the bed foundation of the
track right, Oh my mama, I'm telling you this how

(01:24:32):
this was done. I'm walking around the room harming the parts.
I don't know how many bars I'm gonna make this.
I just want to make the emotional connectivity be a
finif enough for me to feel something I need to
feel when it's time to make the transition. That's why
you hear some call flops and things inside of the track. Listen.

(01:24:54):
I know, you know, you know, that's why you hear
some of that. But after this of it a lot
of that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
Listeners of QLs. Right now, I'm doing the Jim Carrey
dumb and dumber realization.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Jeff, I can't believe this.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Wow. Okay, I was.

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):
Asked, David, were you a fan by chance of David Axelrod?

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
Did you listen to any of his stuff?

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
Really?

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:25:28):
I just both of y'all always like, oh yeah, both
of you guys, y'all kind of have like this really
dark yeah, dramatic, like big uh, Like it's it's big
and like beautiful, but it's also kind of dark and
kind of a Carver as well. And it's really classy.
It's elegant, but it's really like dark and it can

(01:25:49):
be like, oh you listen to that, listen to it
in the dark, you might be freaked out little bit,
but really beautiful stuff. Man. I just I just wondered
if y'all were fans of each other.

Speaker 5 (01:26:00):
Well, well, you know what I would tell you this, man,
I am. I feel that I've been so blessed because
what come has come through me is the grace of
the man upstairs. Because I have a nonprofit program where
I teach songwriting, record producing, record all of that called
the constroint MT it's ten years old. A lot of

(01:26:21):
what you get coming out of ificent kids that have
gone through my program in songwriting. All this's got got
one hundred.

Speaker 8 (01:26:26):
And thirty some videos with everybody Stevie Baries, Philip Bailey,
Jimmy jam Bobby Womag, Edie le Verge I mean, let usy,
I mean on video talking about their concepts of the
creating process.

Speaker 5 (01:26:40):
So all of this, I had to come up with
a set way to understand how I do what I
do for the success of those things to come out
of that, because if I was relying totally on how
I felt, people don't care about how you feel. They
care about how you make them feel. So I had
to find a way to make the magic of that
be resonating to others. And I had to also know

(01:27:03):
in order to replicate it again, find some way to
understand it. And part of what Isaac and I would
talk about, and sometimes he would think I was crazy
because I was so far into that, but it was
a gift and Maurice White and I came from Virginia Street. Maurice,
if you read this book, you see that he talked
about me being one of the first persons he ran

(01:27:24):
the name earth Winn in firedown too. Why I flew
to La I was a hot producer. Maurice's with Ramsay
planned the Hong Kong by the Cintray Plaza hotel. I
flew to La because he wanted to tell me something
he did to give. The next day we walking up sunset.
He's going to tell your concept. I gat Maurice created
earth Wind and off of a concept in the direction

(01:27:44):
that he had from the gift go and knew exactly
what he was going to go in and the creative
process because he knew he wanted to have an identity
that created a uniqueness that was totally him. That is
the essence of what comes out of Memphis in such
unique way. He said, no one can can understand it,
including me. Is say, if it's a God given gift?

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Was was Marius's uh metaphysical.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
Direction?

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Was it jarring to you at the time, because you
know what Marius was trying to convey with earth Wind
and Fire was like the spirit, which which is kind
of the exact opposite of even though he was using
gospel overturns in the Southern Church, but he's really using
metaphysics and things outside of westernized Christianity. Was that a

(01:28:37):
little weird for you at the time, Like what you
get into Marius? Like, like, how did you perceive this,
this kind of spirituality that Marius was was conveying with
with the band.

Speaker 5 (01:28:51):
We're walking up the street and when he said, tell
me what you think about this earth when in fire?
Consider the time period that we're talking about, Ohio players,
mm hmm. All of the men go down there. He

(01:29:13):
comes a guy says, earth when in fire, and this
is the concept David, And then I'm gonna fuse jazz.
But he ran all of that down to me. He's
gonna fuse that inside of it. What I thought was
he's gonna make something work, because we always talked about

(01:29:36):
how I stumbled up from the spirituality of what I
was doing to make it work. And I just believe
he was gonna make it work. I just didn't know
how he was going to accomplish it in the climate
that we were living in. Because he was it was
going to be so innovative, it had to be. But
when I heard the sound of what he did, because
he had a group before or winning fire, when I
heard the sound of what he did with the group

(01:29:58):
he was, it was over and we stayed like this.
I was I would fly to la when when Maurice
had the parkass just to get him in the car
and ride in the street because he was through touring.
We were that close and we talked up and toil
he left it so his thought about what he was
going to do because he had that thought about what

(01:30:19):
those processes was going to be and what the musician
was going to be before he put it together. The
only thing he told me differently while we were on
suns he said, I'm going to bring verdein out here
to California. He told me that. But other than that,
he was going to put all of those ingredients together
and he did it. But yeah, I just because we
worked off of concepts in the direction and identity and

(01:30:43):
all of those things we lived off of that. I
just didn't know he would put it off. He did.
I believed in.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
There is one important question I forgot to ask as
a kid that grew up in a three thousand album household,
and especially a kid that was afraid of clowns dog,
who was the who was the artistic visionary behind the

(01:31:16):
album cover for Victim of the Joke?

Speaker 5 (01:31:20):
And when he says you can't handle the truth, Listen,
that's a joke. That's a joke. I didn't know how
smart I was. I just thought that because I had
some Tennessee walker horses out in Shelby Farms. I just thought,
I want to do this cover and I want to
have a clown outfit on and I want to be

(01:31:41):
I want to sit on a drum because I want
to make this an opera. Called it victim of the
joke I wanted to be, and I want to make
it like who's the clown? Well and so, but this
is before I wrote out the script. I had that.
So that was one of those things whereuse its just said,
it came from another kind of space, just like when

(01:32:04):
something is wrong, came from another kind of space. Hold
on coming came from another kind of space. The toilet
was there, but it was somewhere else. When it's just
it's from another kind of space.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
When was the ending of Stacks as we knew it?

Speaker 5 (01:32:18):
The ending of Stacks happened with Isaac still there, me
still in charge of five labels ahead of an RM.
Steve Cropper was gone, Doug Dunn was gone. Al Jackson Jr.
Was there, and so it was. It was a situation
where we didn't know what was going on with the

(01:32:39):
business part of the company, but we knew that al
bail It became such a revered person, certainly after the
watch Stacks that we did, which was amazing within itself,
until it was almost I had the feeling that that
the business white community where the biggest were when it

(01:33:00):
found out that because we had a line of credit
with a particular bank there, when they found out that
this this black man was was what he was was doing,
what he was doing, that it was almost they called
the line and came at us in such a way
that they got al Bill indicted eighteen indicting it and
tried to destroy him foreclothes on the company. And the

(01:33:24):
last thing we knew was Isaac couldn't get any money
his money which he it was millions of dollars there
and the company actually folded because of foreclosure. Isaac then
left Stacks when it was foreclosed and then signed with
the other label, but he didn't he didn't sign with

(01:33:44):
another label before Stacks closed. Wow, And so but it
was it was an attack on destroying a powerful company
that was creating a great amount of jobs and a
tremendous amount of notoriety for Memphis, Tennessee. And you put
that with what Willie Mitchell was doing. We were a
power base in a city that was seaked in a

(01:34:07):
in a kind of bigoty that was not in its
own interest because the credit bills that we was bringing
to the city was tremendous in itself.

Speaker 4 (01:34:14):
They were you around when Al Bell formed Bellmark, his
his indie label that they put out they ended up
putting out there it is, but.

Speaker 5 (01:34:22):
Uh yeah, he l moved to California when he did that.
You know, he had an office building on Hollywood there.
You know, I was definitely wrong when Al when Stax
was over and everybody thought Al was over. Al he
ended up, you know, creating baill Mark. As you said,
Wait a minute, he was. He was still in a

(01:34:45):
brilliant mind.

Speaker 4 (01:34:45):
Yeah, and I think he did. He did Prince the
most Beautiful Girl in the World.

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I forgot in Motown and Motown
say what Al.

Speaker 5 (01:34:55):
Bell worked with Barry Guardy in Motown.

Speaker 4 (01:34:58):
For the Bells, them Bells. I'm trying to check that.

Speaker 5 (01:35:03):
Out, Joe. You know, I'm gonna say I've listened to
you guys, and I just muddled and how much information
Wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):
Was Fantasy Records at all associated with al Bell because
there was a period in the in the early Arts,
like in two thousand and whatnot, in which ah damn,
see I'm messing up right now. One of the executives
that used to work at Geffen who signed me, went
to Fantasy and was like, yes, we have all the
Fantasy masters and all the Stacks masters.

Speaker 5 (01:35:34):
Like can I can I say? Of course? Was that
was that Erny Singleton?

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
I know any Singleton? But no it was not him.

Speaker 5 (01:35:42):
No, okay, okay, because I only worked for Fantasy period.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Okay, but okay, So I guess they connected in the
early arts.

Speaker 5 (01:35:50):
Well you know how to Fantasy deal happened? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
No, I don't know, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:35:55):
Stax's closed was totally closed in seventy six. Here comes
to people to me and asked me, would I create
a seven and a half tape of what was in
the Stacked library? And would I do that? Because they
didn't know what it was. The bank had foreclosers and
they were just trying to figure out how to get

(01:36:17):
rid of stuff, and they didn't know what they had,
and so what happened was they had to pay me
one hundred thousand dollars to put seven and a half
takes together for about forty five minutes. And Fantasy Records
came to me after that and asked me what I
had up the label for them. What they wanted was

(01:36:39):
to release the catalog of the music, and they wanted
me to move to Berkeley, California. I said, I would
not move to Berkeley, California if you answered me doing it.
I would have to do it in Memphis, and I
also would have to have the right to sign some
of the artists to the label and you release records
on them. We said, we don't really want to do

(01:37:00):
I said, well then I'm not interested. Well, they would
not have known what to do with the catalog, so
they made the deal with me. Ernie Singleton, who later
became the president of MCA, and that's why we close
to this day, was working for Fantasy Records. Another guy
by the name of Bob Orshey was working there. I
released the record on the Emotions. They had a record
called Shouting Out Love. I released a record I have

(01:37:22):
on ISAAC called hot Bed. I released a record on
the barcade called Holy Ghosts. I released a record on
the Soldier and called Can't give Up a Good Thing.
I had another act by the name of Shown Up.
And if you go seventy eight should be and you
google seven eight Billboard magazine, you'll see there were four
or five records on the national charts of with Stax

(01:37:44):
Fantasy on it. And then when I told the guy,
we have an opportunity to be successful, he says, no,
I don't want I said we can be big. I
said I don't want to be big, and then I
left the deal because I realized what time that was. Wow.
I won't go deeper than that anyway. I wasn't interested
in that. So that's what happened. So after that, whoever

(01:38:05):
signed with Fantasy I lift in seventy eight, after those
records were released. If those records that I mentioned, Holy
ghost they hit on the barcades, that was after Saxic Clue.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
I was going to ask what was it because they
were Mercury at the time, Like was that in their
that was just in the vaults or something that was.

Speaker 5 (01:38:23):
I got that out of the vault, I got the
help out of Issa out of the bolt. I got
the help out of the emotions out of the vault. Ah,
I recalled it an ah see.

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
But because the thing is the Barks era I want
to know about is again the posts, you know, the
seventies barcades. But maybe you know the answer, with the
exception of Holy Ghost, why is every song they ever
released like derivative of someone else's hit? Like did they

(01:39:01):
think that we wouldn't put you and two together? That
shine was you know, earth wind fires on your face
or you know, shake your rump to the front might
be shining star, or like, were they just the type
of seventies band that would just get the forty five

(01:39:21):
of the moment, study that forty five and figure out, Okay,
what's our formula for that? Because literally Holy Ghost is
probably like even even on Stacks, like a song like
it's on the Cold Blooded records, like one of my
favorite Barkay's Joint, which is basically kind of derivative of

(01:39:41):
when the World's at Peace by the OJ's It's Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:39:46):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
Literally, Jimmy jam and I like pretty much kept a
record of every song that the Barks has ever created.
Oh this is a song called a fighting fire with
fire or the Stack era Barcas, which you know it's
also a popular sample for hip hop. But there's almost

(01:40:07):
one element in every I mean even on those earlier records,
like they're sliding and family Stones dance to the music,
and it's like, don't stop, dance to the music. Don't stop.
Like were they not afraid that one day they might
get caught in the sort of litigation with.

Speaker 5 (01:40:26):
Being well, you understand, the guy who would ended up
taking them over in total, who didn't have the control
of Stax Records and then being kept in a particular
direction that records could be sold on was a guy
by the name of Work with Us, by the name
of Alan Jones. Okay, Alan Jones became the producer, the
only producer and the manager of the Barcades, and he

(01:40:50):
came up with the direction that they were going to go.
In matter of fact, I'm going to be sure to
get James so you can interview that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
Yeah, please do us that salad, please please please.

Speaker 5 (01:41:01):
It's done. But but so Alan was the one who
was giving them this this particular direction, and I would
rather I won't butch it up. I'm gonna get James
and he'll he'll, he would tell you asking about Alan
Jones and Larry Dobson, who was versatile and his vocal
could could immolate those be the Oklaha players or whoever.

Speaker 2 (01:41:22):
Larry Donson is probably one of the most underrated soul cats,
still in fine form with it with his but yeah,
the legendary Alan Jones, who you know, I forgot to
ask about cold feet with Albert King and I'll play
the blues for you and all that stuff. Yes, legendary,
legendary man. This this is such an honor to just

(01:41:43):
to talk to you and finally get some in depth
stories from you, because we've never seen any feature linked
article on you or or anything. And you're You're just
a genius and a gentleman, and we thank you for
being on our show. Yeah, straight up man.

Speaker 4 (01:42:00):
Shout out to DJ Khalil too. I'm put this together again.

Speaker 2 (01:42:04):
Thank you. We appreciate you doing this. Unpaid Bill bruh,
you missed a you missed the masterpiece of an episode.
I gotta let you know you're on behalf of Sugar
Steve and font Ticcolo and Laya and Unpaid Phil and
the great David Porter.

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
It's another classic episode of Quest Love Supreme and we
will see you guys on the next go around. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
M'ST Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For
more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
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