February 3, 2026 • 49 mins
After a shooting at an LDS church in Michigan, Dave started a fundraiser not for the most visible victims—but for the shooter’s family. In this episode of The Ripple Effect, Jenna Kim Jones explores what happens when compassion leads instead. What began as a quiet, almost uncomfortable idea turned into a powerful moment of generosity and grace. This conversation looks at faith, forgiveness, and the surprising ways kindness can cut through even the darkest moments.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey there, it's me Jennikim Jones, and welcome to The
Ripple Effect, the podcast that proves one small act can
change everything, and that small act can turn a really
tragic experience into something truly inspiring. We're getting heavy really
quick here in our beginning of the episode, but let's
back it up. Let's back it up before we start.
(00:26):
This episode feels a little more personal to me. Some
of you might know this about me, but I am
a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints. Surprise, okay, it's not really a surprise. One
quick Google search, you'd know right away by listening to
this podcast you now know.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
A Mormon comedian.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But quick note, us Mormons, we're really trying to steer
clear of being called Mormons. Mormon's really just like our
nickname that we've had forever and ever, and we do
have a book of scripture called the Book of Mormon.
But sometimes it confuses people and they think, who's this Mormon?
Do you worship Mormon?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We're members of the Church of Jesus Christ because we
worship Jesus Christ. So if you have any friends or
acquaintances who are members of my same faith. You can
really impress them by using our church's name instead of
our nickname, and it's pretty cool. So now you know,
a comedian and a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of latterday Saints. I know it's a mouthful, it
(01:18):
is a long name, but I do love my faith.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
A few months back, while I was attending church, I
might have been looking at my phone.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Don't judge me.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
My scriptures are also on my phone, and I saw
some truly horrific news. One of our church buildings in
Michigan had been attacked by a gunman. I was sitting
in church, I'm surrounded by people that I love, and
I'm reading the unimaginable. We were devastated for this congregation,
and the news spread quickly with details of what had happened.
(01:48):
A man had driven his truck directly into one of
our buildings in Michigan, and when our members ran to
help him, assuming it was a terrible accident, he opened
fire on the people there. I think about that often.
You know, these people are at church and they saw
someone who they thought was hurt, and they ran to help.
Those are my people. There have been so many of
(02:11):
these kinds of attacks in recent years, many of them
religiously motivated, and it breaks my heart. I left my
home when I was eighteen, and I moved across the
country to New York City, and back then I was scared,
I was nervous, but I learned quickly that even though
I was different from many of the friends that I made,
we always had common ground. I have friends who absolutely
do not share my belief system, but they listen to me,
(02:34):
and I listen to them, and we find ways to
be friends. And I think we're missing.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So much of that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
We've got to get back to talking to one another
and to being okay with our differences. We have to
stop demonizing each other and look for ways to work together. Unfortunately,
four members of my faith did pass away in that attack,
and several others were injured. And oftentimes when these tragedies happen,
our first instinct is to just be so mad, right anger. Well,
(03:02):
one man saw this tragedy and he flipped the script
on everybody. Author and member of the church, Dave Butler,
looked at what had happened and realized that there were
other victims in this tragedy and did something completely unexpected.
He set up a fundraiser for the family of the shooter,
who had left behind a wife and a child. And
(03:23):
since Dave set up this effort, thousands of members of
my church and members of the community and other faiths
from all around the world have donated almost four hundred
thousand dollars. So today we're going to talk to Dave
and learn more about his decision to start this fundraiser
and the ripple effect that it created.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Hi, Jenna, Hello, thank you so much for being here
with us.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Dave, I'm honored.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, that's so kind of you.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
We're honored actually really to talk to you, and I'd
love to learn a little bit more about you personally. First,
I know that you're an author, but I feel like
there's even more.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Just tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, So I'm married, we have three kids, two dogs.
The kids are young adults, by which I mean our
oldest is married. We have a daughter in college, and
we have our youngest is a senior in high school.
By background, I went to law school. That's my professional training.
I haven't really practiced law since twenty ten, a little
(04:28):
bit here and there, But what I always wanted to
be as a kid. And what I have been pursuing
seriously since twenty ten is I wanted to write novels.
So actually my inh what October, I think my twentieth
novel came out. I write science fiction and fantasy principally.
(04:48):
I've also written some nonfiction. I'm working now on a
nonfiction book about the Sermon on the Mount actually, which
I think we'll put out sometime this spring. In twenty
twenty four, I started with some part a small publishing
company which is doing very well. We've published religious nonfiction
for the first kind of year and a half, and
recently we've started putting out children's books, and in twenty
(05:11):
twenty six we'll start publishing fiction. So I'm an editor,
a publisher, I'm a novelist.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I used to be a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You've done it all.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I play guitar, strictly mediocre guitarist. I'm a worst banjo player.
I like board games. That's kind of who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, it sounds like you're a jack of all trades. Okay,
you've done it all. I mean, casually, you just dropped
that you've written so many books. That's amazing, that's so cool.
So now we meet here and you've done so many
amazing things, and now we're here talking today about this
tragedy that happened. You probably never imagined yourself being here
(05:54):
talking to me about this. I know that it was
a shock to me. Maybe let's go back in time, Dave,
and talk about the day that this all happened. When
we found out about this shooting in Michigan. I was
at church and I was I mean, yes, did I
open X at church when I probably should have been listening.
(06:14):
I did, But I found out about this horrible thing
that was happening, and we were shocked. I mean immediately,
we just couldn't believe that this was actually happening, and
we didn't know much at the time. It was literally
just happening. But take us back to that day for you.
What was that day like?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, I wasn't at church.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I was on the couch at home and saw the
news and then basically didn't stop watching the news for
all of that Sunday. The sheriff would have press releases
and sort of release more.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
At the same time. Because I am Mormon, I'm LDS.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Me too, So.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Maybe this was your experience too. Jenna.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I don't know anybody who was there, but I know
lots of people who know somebody who was there, or
you know, have an uncle or something, right, And so
I got texts frequently through the day saying I heard
this from my cousin, I heard this from my sister
(07:21):
in law. Right, So you're sort of you're watching the
sheriff and you're you're getting supplemental information. So that was
that was basically my whole day on the Sunday. I'm
not sure I left the couch except to eat.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You know, I was in similar situation, constantly looking at
my phone, peeking at it, and my husband was just,
I guess, not online that day, and he, you know,
we have we have four young children. My oldest is
ten and my youngest is two, and so we're kind
of just getting along on the day and I'm trying
(07:53):
to learn more about this and my husband's playing it
really cool. And he had like decided that day he
wasn't going to go online. And I did bring it
up to him driving home from church because we had
separate cars, and then I didn't really want to bring
it up in front of the kids, so he had
no idea. He was living this peaceful. I'm like, this
is big thing that's happening, but the same thing, or
I was hearing different stories. You know, it's a small community.
(08:16):
It's we have a global church, but a at the
heart of it, we're all sort of connected, especially here
in the United States. And I think similar situation where
you're hearing different things and trying to piece together what
really happened. So as you're piecing together what happened, what
are your thoughts what led you to go, Hey, there's
(08:37):
something we could do here that's a little bit different.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Yeah, there's a surprising amount of Twitter in this whole story. Okay,
So I was on Twitter, I get it, and somebody
and I think it was an account that said sometime Monday,
like kind of midday, they said, hey, in all of
this because and on Monday, people were sort of starting
fundraise and and we were we knew there were four
(09:02):
dead by then, and the Stakes center burned completely down,
I should say four dead, and also Jake Sandford, right,
four members of the congregation killed, right, and fundraiser were
being started, and the church was kind of, you know,
doing stuff. I think I think the church might even
by then had sort of kind of come in and
kind of organize some of the fundraising. And I think
there's like a there's a there's a fund that's sort of.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Matching contributions or something.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And this tweet or tweet reply said, hey, in all
of this is somebody thinking about the family of the shooter.
And that seemed obviously right to me, And so I
went and looked to see if the what the answer was,
and as far as I could tell, the answer was
that nobody that nobody had by this time, it's probably
(09:50):
sort of early evening Monday. Yeah, I went and took
the dogs for a walk, and I took the dogs
for a walk to sort of think about this. Also
because my dogs were harassing me because they know their
rights and they were demanding a walk.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
That's another reason, right, exactly, yes you.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Shouldren stare at me, Dave, Dave so, but also I
really wanted to just kind of think this through and
get my get my head right on this right, because
one of the questions is am I the right person
to do this? And it's not obvious that I am.
(10:29):
I've never raised funds for anybody, right, and my own
social media presence is not zero, but it's relatively modest.
For one thing, I deleted my Facebook account in twenty twenty. Right,
I'm not on the biggest platform, and that was where
my largest social media presence had once been. And for another,
(10:50):
I wanted to sort of make sure that I was
doing this for good reasons.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Look, I write fantasy and science novels. It's very easy
to imagine exciting things. It's very easy to sort of
get caught up in an idea of heroism. Right, I'm
going to save the day. Everybody will love me, right,
And Okay, I'm going to do this. I need to
make sure that I'm the right guy, and I need
to make sure i'm you know, my head is clear.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'm choosing this for right reason. So I walked the dogs.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
We did the so called long walkies about a mile
and a half, and by the end I had reached
the decision, Look, if no one else has done this,
when I get home, I'm going to do it.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
So I went yeah, looked, and no one had. So.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I am not a YouTuber exactly, but I'm I'm YouTube adjacent.
I'm a recurring guest on some LDS YouTube channels, and
so I have friends with platforms of seventy five thousand
and fifty thousand followers, right, And so part of my
(11:59):
thinking was, all right, I don't have a lot of reach,
but these people do. And so I got home and
I texted these friends and I said, listen, here's what
I'm thinking. I'm thinking I'm going to do this. You
guys willing to help? And they said, oh man.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
So then I tried to figure out how to do it,
and I could not make gofund me work. I went
to give Senngo, which is a smaller platform, and I
set it up and it went immediately perfect. Yes, now
it's still up. You can go look at it. It
is completely artless. There is no art Eitherre's a thing
(12:39):
that I wrote in about two minutes, right, and it's like, Hi,
I'm Dave. Here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's all you need, I think. I mean you got
to get something going, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
Well yeah, and there's this screencap I took off the
Internet and like that's it.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So it was about eight in the morning on Tuesday,
and I hit go and I told those guys, and
true to their word, they all immediately started sharing it
and like the dollar counter just started to roll, and
twelve hours later it was one hundred thousand dollars and
there were US senators.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Retweeting it incredible, and it just blew up. Yeah, that's
so cool.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, So there's like ten things I want to ask you,
But okay, so we're going to back it up and
say you keep saying it felt obviously like the right.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Thing to do.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, no one had done it yet, though, Dave, So
was it an obvious thing? You know, most people, I
would argue, they're thinking about the victims of the shooting.
They're not thinking about the family or other people. So
when you say obviously, where does that come from? Why
was it so obvious to you? And you know it
hadn't been done yet.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Maybe that's the other thing I contributed, And maybe this
has to do.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
With my immersion in the Sermon on the Mountain in
the last years, last months in this book I'm working on. Right,
Maybe that's it, because you're right, nobody else had done it,
although as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure there was
somebody's tweet that I suggested that suggested it. But there
(14:16):
is at least a certain amount of obviousness to it,
because something like ninety five hundred people. Jenna saw the
thing with no art, there's no glamour, there's no design, there,
no fancy graphics, nothing, and said, yeah, this is the
right thing to do. And if you go, you go. Look,
the average contribution is under forty bucks. So it is
(14:40):
ninety five hundred people, and a lot of them are
giving five dollars, ten dollars, twenty dollars. You know, there
have been a few people. Everybody has been generous that
you could pitch in it, all, right, is generosity. And
you know you used to phrase victims of the shooting.
I think what people recognized is that the widow is
(15:01):
also a victim, and the ten year old son of
the shooter is also a victim. Right, Right, If you
had a kid with no health issues at all, suddenly
you're ten and you're looking at the next sixty years
of your life. But man, especially like the next ten
ten to fifteen years getting through school and people at
some point are going to find out that your dad
(15:23):
did this, and like kids are merciless to each other,
this kid is gonna have some real hard moments.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Interviewers that I talked to at the time, right, meaning
very well, I'm not trying to imply that they were
foolish people or whatever, but they would ask questions. They
would say things like, Wow, you know, it's amazing that
you could forgive the guy son.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
What is there to forgive?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
He's innocent, he's a kid.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
He needs help, right.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, he does.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And you're right, there is something. There's a kind of
a blind spot, right. And I don't know, maybe it's
maybe our national media culture has created the blind spot
the way we talk about these events, right, it's it's
sort of become a political football kind of a cultural thing,
right when you when you talk about you know, Columbine
(16:17):
or the shooter in the in the Nashville Christian Academy
or whatever. Right, And and there's a way we talk
about them, and the way we talk about them is
that the people who get shot and get shot at
by the shooter, those are the victims, right, and we
need to we need to think about them, and.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Then we argue about the shooter. Right. We argue about
the shooter for political reasons.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
They did it because they're on antidepressants, they did it
because they're alienated, because of they doesn't have a father.
They did it because we have too many guns. Right,
they have a fight every.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Time beside that side, and then you have to pick
a side.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah, And as as Jake Sandford's sister said to me,
nobody ever tells you what it's going to be like
when you're the family.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Of the shooter. Oh wow, right. None of them saw
this coming, none of them wanted it. Man. I talked.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I talked to friends, friends, Jake Sansford's friends. I talked
to neighbors. I talked to the family, you know, I
talked to people locals who kind of knew things about them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Nobody said, oh yeah, I saw this coming.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
This was obviously where this was going to end, right,
And so maybe in our culture we have created this
blind spot. And maybe I'm just the guy who saw
that one tweet whatever it really was, and took the
three minutes to set it is nothing, right. I typed
three paragraphs and put up a screen cap. But I
(17:44):
think the real story is about ninety five hundred people
who said, oh my gosh, that's obviously right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I love that you brought up, you know, this culture
that we kind of have, right, because this show is
called the ripple Effect, and we started this show because
our goal was We wanted to show that there are
great people in the world doing fantastic things and they're
spreading that good because we do live in a world
(18:10):
where the news is negative, negative. It's all these bad
things have happened, and the reaction is always, oh, I'm
going to get more angry about it. And so we
started the show in hopes to show that there actually
are great things happening in the world. And so when
the world feels so angry, why do you think this
(18:31):
took off so quickly? I saw it on X, I
saw the fundraiser right away, and I was blown away
by it. But why do you think that it worked,
Because it's, like you say, this is not the reaction
that we see on the news. The news is pick aside,
be angry about it.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that has to
be true is that actually very that many people, maybe
all of us, have an our nature, something that wants
us to do things like this. Right As to say, I,
I theologically Christianity generally, I specifically have a fair amount
(19:09):
of pessimism about human nature. Right we are we are
inclined to do dumb things. And the French philosopher RNA
Gerard talks about the problem of mimetic violence. In other words,
he says, we have an ape instinct, which is that
if if someone does violence to us, we do violence back.
And and I think it's probably true. But I think
(19:31):
one thing we learned is that we also have somewhere
in our nature a thing that that doesn't want that,
and that is and is willing to see a different
and a better, a better alternative.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And I didn't.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
I like, there was no persuading, you know, I I
I didn't get up and exhort people. I had friends
on these YouTube channels, you know, who did little YouTube
broadcasts or who shared a share to you know, to
brief you know what you can put on X A
couple hundred characters, right, and people just immediately saw it
(20:06):
and responded to it. I know the podcast is called
the Ripple Effect. And I don't know all the ripples,
but I'll tell you one. I think that might be
that A month later, I think BYU's football team was
scheduled to play Texas A and M. And somebody on
the Texas A and M coaching staff man. I think
(20:27):
it might have been like an assistant.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Coach or a.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was Texas Tech.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Oh was it Texas Tech?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Okay, okay, so you've got this in your research. Okay,
So I'm going to get this wrong and then you
can correct me. So who had a GoFundMe outstanding? And
I forget what. I think it's his wife, Like his
wife had some kind of health issue or was in
an action, they didn't have insurance or something like this.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Yeah, And in anticipation of the game BYU started sharing
and this is a month after right started sharing around
that go fund me.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And I think there raised ninety thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It was fast. H Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I don't know that, you know, I certainly do. I'm
not trying to claim credit.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
I don't know that those people were looking at what
had just happened a month earlier and said, oh, yes,
let's do more of that. But like, it feels like
it's the same. At least, it's the same impulse, right,
at least it's the same desire to do good. And
then I think we lost to Texas tex I think.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
We did, but they're really good. Texas Tech's really good.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Okay. But here's the deal, though, I think it did
inspire people, and I because I saw that fundraiser too,
and I immediately thought of yours because I thought, Okay,
look at this, people are thinking differently. Because that's what
I think is so cool about your fundraiser is people
are thinking differently. Okay, Texas Tech is the rival, the
(21:50):
quote unquote enemy. We want to win, we want to
beat them. But also these people really need help and really,
at the end of the day, all children of God
and we should really just get along. So, you know,
I think it was a ripple effect, and I think
that you should be proud of that because it felt
(22:11):
like it to me at least when I saw it,
and not only that, it then inspired Texas Tech to
want to do good as well. So now you're reaching
a completely different community because you know, BYU is very
connected to our community and our church obviously, but now
you're going to another school which is not connected to
(22:31):
the LDS faith. Who's going like, hey, we want to
do good, we want to help too.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So we have a lot of depictions in culture right
now of our faith or people who are living our
I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
All the pop culture out there right now, and you know,
it's a lot of it is shocking to see. But
when you see this fundraiser and it take off and
members of the church helping, and then you see these
depictions in pop culture, how does that feel to you?
In this world we're living in.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Yeah, this is such a big, interesting, complicated subject, Jenna.
This is I know, there are some depictions of us
that are simply comical, and I think that are worth
just just laughing at.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So there was a Get Shorty.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
It was originally as a novel, and it's the most
insane depiction of Yeah, it's the most insane depiction of
Mormons you've ever seen, because he like piously refuses to
drink Coca cola, but he's perfectly happy to commit murder. So, like,
I watched something like that and I go, man, if
you want to believe that stuff about me, all I'm
all I can do is lull, Like I just it's
(23:47):
that's that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Right, right? But also, man, there are depictions that are
that are gross, that can feel like a betrayal, Like
this is like it's there's no human learn it. It's
not funny and it's depressing. You know, I don't know
what to do about it. So I'm a writer, so.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I'm going to like, I don't know, I may have
a different take on this than others. The problem is
we have our own sort of propaganda view, which is
very cheery, perfectly clean, right, not a hair at a place,
six kids all in order on the bench, right, always happy.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
And like that's not right either. It's nice.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
It'd be nice if everybody was like that, right, But like,
I think actually Mormon artists have a responsibility to try
to tell honest stories about Mormons, and that means showing
people who are funny looking weirdos like me, right, have
an absolutely abysmal sense of fashion and grooming.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
But nevertheless, somehow I was able to sort of participate
in this transcendent moment, right, Like, that's a true, an
interesting and a complex.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Story, right, it's so interesting. I'm a comedian. That's what
I do stand up for my this is you know,
I love podcasting, but I also do stand up and
a lot of times I don't talk about my faith,
and very often occasionally so, but really not very often
at all. And people will come up and go, wait
a minute, how did I laugh at all that stuff?
(25:24):
You're one of those people, and I'm like, because I'm
just like you, I swear all of that was just real.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That was just me.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We have all the same feelings about dumb stuff that
I make jokes about. So I guess you're right. We
got to be out there doing it, portraying who we
are and being honest about it. I love to be
honest about it. But let's get back to what we've
been talking about. You've said, and I've heard you say
this and maybe some of your interviews, that our faith,
your faith has taught you to love your enemies, and
(25:54):
so I would love for you to kind of elaborate
on that in these sort of situations where people might
feel more anger. You know, this shooting happens, and I
saw a lot of people who were not angry, even
though you kind of have a right to be mad
that this happened. People died, we lost an entire church.
(26:15):
But can you talk to me a little bit about
this feeling of love your enemies and how that teaching
has guided you.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
You know, interviewers at the time asked me, Hey, what
is there unique about Mormons that made you do this?
And let me come back to my answer that I
actually gave. I could have said, oh, man, there are
unique things about Mormons. Right, my head could have been
kind of approaching this through some uniquely Mormon stories.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Okay, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
For example, if someone's listening and you're a reader of
the Book of Mormon, you might be thinking about like
the attitude type language more mourn with those who mourn, right,
And I could have said that. I could have said, look,
that's part of my makeup. That's one of the things
that probably was down in me.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
And I didn't. Right. I could have what I said,
and and what was it was true? Right? Was that
I I didn't at any point think right from the
moment I saw that other person's tweet, I never thought, oh,
you know, Jake sands first kid is my enemy and
I need I need to live up to my moral
obligation and be good to my enemy.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
I never saw him as my enemy, right. I never
saw Jake Jake's widow is my enemy. She didn't choose
this right, no way. She woke up Sunday morning proud
that her husband was going off to murder Mormons.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So for me, it was it was the Epistle of
James for me. James says pure religion and undefiled. Is
this that you visit the fatherless and the widows and
their affliction? Right, I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that's what it is,
like verse chapter one, verse twenty five, something like that.
And for me that was the obvious thing, like this
is this is it. There's a there's a widow, there's
(27:58):
a father's child.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
But let me just.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Say here too. I know that Mormons were not the
only people who contributed. I know that Mormons were many,
maybe most, but I also know that there are people
who were from all kinds of backgrounds. And you can
read the comments to people, will you know, give ten
bucks and say something, And they are quoting hymns, and
(28:22):
they're quoting scriptures, and they're giving personal messages to the family,
you know. And it's clear that for some people, the
experience they're having is exactly one of forgiving an enemy.
And they're not really forgiving, you know, the ten.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Year old boy.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Right, of course, they're forgiving. They're forgiving the dad, right,
and they are they're showing their forgiveness. They're making their
forgiveness material in the world by saying, look, you know
what I can do? Right that the other cheek that
I can turn is that I can help your widow
(29:04):
and your kid, right. And I think for thousands of
people that was the experience and I got I got
many messages over the last three months. I guess it's
been from people who would say something like, thank you
for giving me the opportunity just to let go of
let go of my anger.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And for many people, I think it was love your enemies, right.
And I think I think for you know, for for others,
maybe they had sort of the same experience I did,
where it wasn't about my enemies, it was here's here's
another victim that maybe is less obvious. Right, there's a
high level dynamic here, which is that which unites everybody
(29:51):
in this which is the terrible thing has happened, and
we can come together to help the people who have
been harmed, even people that we might not ordinarily see,
might not immediately think of as being victims.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, you gave people this opportunity to forgive, which I
think creates you know, we were talking about ripples, the
ripple effect, this ripple where you look at the world
very differently when you do that, like when you have
the opportunity to like, look at something really hard and
tragic and to say I forgive this person, or I'm
(30:32):
giving because I want to serve and do what Christ
would do. That you kind of see the world differently
after that, I think, and I wonder if this gives
and go gave people the opportunity to do this and
then look at their own lives and go, hey, maybe
(30:53):
I should be less angry about this, or maybe I
should be a little bit now to my neighbors, or
you know, politically, maybe I can calm down on some
of my ideas or whatever it might be. Have you
felt that shift at all in your life or in
people's lives as they've messaged you.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah, my own perspective has changed. And that's a fair
description of kind of the I don't know, realization maybe
is the right word, or sort of just different feeling
about stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
And I'm grateful for that. And I've actiable.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Message me and say, you know, well, I've got a
surprising number of messages of people talking about going back
to church, which is I think probably an example a
manifestation of what you're talking about, right, Yeah, remembering, oh.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Like this is why church, right, whether your church.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Was an LDS congregation or something else, right, right, like,
oh yeah, this is the kind of thing the church's
teaching us, and I should be in that.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I've heard from various people saying that's been their response
I had. I think Arthur Brooks was out here as
an organization called Faith Matters, and they had him out
I was talking to Faith Matters founders in November. I
think they had Arthur Brooks out here. He's a public
policy researcher I think sort of seen as being on
(32:24):
the sort of socially conservative side.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And he was out here.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Speaking at UVU, the same campus where Charlie Kirk had
been shot, and I think maybe like just a couple
of weeks after, and he was talking about the question
of like, what, you know, how do we get out
of this extreme polarization in society that our politics seems
inexorably to push us to. And the answer that he
(32:50):
gave was was that you should probably imitate the Mormons.
That more people imitated the Mormons, that seemed to be
the way out. So we were noticed, you know, nationwide,
we were noticed. We got we we again. The ninety
five hundred people are not all LDS, but this is
seen as a Mormon reaction.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Which is great.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know, it's what we were talking about earlier, showing
you know, who we really are and what.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Our culture, what we aspire it to be.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
You know. I mean, we're not perfect people, but what
we would hope that we would do in times of tragedy. Yep,
which is pretty cool. That's interesting. That's uh, I'm blushing.
He thought we were so great, I know, look.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
At us, look at us, go see us on a
bad day.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, yeah, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It wasn't a pre or post BYU game or something wild, right, yeah, No,
we're BYU's got good fans.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We know that. We've already talked about that.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Okay, So I guess I'd love to talk to you
about how things have been since then. You know, some
time has passed. I don't think there's a lot of
you know, media talking about this experience. I think, you know,
there's always some new story that we've moved on to.
So how has it been since you started the fundraiser?
And where are you guys at now?
Speaker 4 (34:11):
So I didn't know the family at all. I started
the fundraiser and I started at the same time trying
to contact them, and I would read news stories on
what was going on, and wherever they seemed to quote
somebody on the ground. I then tried to reach out
to those reporters and say, listen, you talked to the father,
(34:34):
can you put him in touch with me?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Right?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Right?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
And I reached out to Detroit Free Press and New
York Times reporters and somebody else I forget who had
None of them answered. None of them answered at all,
but the one guy was very helpful. There was a
Fox News guy who was on the ground. Two things
happened basically simultaneously. I got talking with him, and then
(34:58):
people reached out to me through Twitter. So on day two,
so Wednesday morning, someone in this mass of X Post
comments said hey, listen, I'm Jake Sandford's sister, right, And
I was.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Like, oh, So.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
I had a little back and forth in an email
with her, but I was like, man, I mean, one
of the terrible things that might happen is if I'm
accidentally talking to the wrong people.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
So, I had just talked to this guy at Fox
and he was great, really wanted to be helpful, And
I said, listen, can you confirm with me that this
is who she says? She is Can you go tell
me that this is Jake Sandford's sister. So he went
and kicked the tires and came back and said, yeah,
you're talking to the right person. So I had the
(35:43):
first call on I think it was Wednesday, right, So
the shootings on Sunday, Tuesday morning. I set up a
good gifts and go it's the next day. I have
a first call with the sister. And I was driving,
and that was a bad time to take the call
because pretty much for an hour, she cried, and I cried,
and I got lost somewhere in Springville and was like
(36:03):
driving out and kind of the edge of the lake,
trying to figure out how to get to the stupid warehouse.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I was trying to find my way to and.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
I see through the tears, I managed not to run
over anybody. This is when she said to me, they
never show you, none of the TV shows, none of
the news. They never show you what it's like to
be the family of the shooter. And she said there
were people who some people were great. So she works
(36:31):
with one of the guys who goes to that LDS congregation.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Oh wow, and so you know Sunday morning this happens.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Monday, she calls and is like, I can't come back
into work, you know, I just I can't for now, right,
and I can't face in particular this other guy.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah right, wow who.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
My brother showed up at his church and killed four people.
And and so she stayed home for two or three days.
And I think it was on the Wednesday that her
boss called her and said, hey, so and so came
in to work today, and the first thing he did
(37:15):
is go try and find you to.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Give you a hug.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So some people have been amazing, some people were not amazing.
So people followed the Sandford family around town, and they
stood on the sidewalk and stared through their windows. And
so one of the stories she told me is that
I think they hadn't they sort of hunke her down
(37:41):
and hadn't left the house. The only reason she responded
to me an X they turned off all the devices
is because a family friend came over and said, look,
this guy has raised one hundred thousand dollars and he's
trying to find you. And so she got on and
kind of quietly in it, replied to my post, said hey,
(38:04):
this is me, right. She said they'd been home Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
and on Tuesday night her father had to sort of
finally leave the house for some reason. I think they'd
run out of food or something, right, Yeah, so she said, my.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Dad went out and got in his truck, turned around
the truck.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
The Serious XM came on and it was Glenn Beck's show,
and Glenn Beck was just reading the comments of the
people who contributed to the Gifts and Go and she said,
my dad just started crying because, like, for the first
time in forty eight hours, somebody didn't hate us, you know.
(38:45):
So that was the beginning of my contact with the family.
We haven't been in constant contact. We've had sort of
periodic contact. I had a conversation the next day with
the widow is a short call.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I said two things. I said.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
First, I said, listen, this is going to be difficult
to believe right now, but God loves you and you
are going.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
To be okay. Yeah, And we all cried a little bit,
of course.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
And then I said, I said, hey, listen, you know,
at the time, I think it was eighty five hundred
people or something, but whatever, I said, these thousands of
people have given me their money, I need to be responsible,
so I could look them in the eye and tell them.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
I was real careful.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
I think you ought to think about rather than me
sending you a pile of cash, that we set up
something like a trust, so it just helps you. It
just gives you a base payment every month to just
make sure, you know, just to make the next ten
years especially easier.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Right, She's doing all the work. Like again, my role
is actually very small.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
So she's been dealing with the trust professional and a
trust lawyer and kind of getting set up so that
I think sometime soon here it'll be ready and I'm
moving at their speed. Right, I am not controlling The
money is still sitting in the website because the family
is doing this so we can put the money into trust.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Right. I've never met them. I may meet them this spring,
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
But I.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Feel grateful that I've been able to just be a
positive presence, you know, to represent.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Hope. Yeah, you say, look, there's.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Love in the world for you in this terrible, terrible time,
you know, I feel very grateful for that. There have
been for me some funny doors that have opened, like
people who have showed up and wanted to sort of
work with me or talk to me because they they
heard this. A film producer, you know, I got invited
to curate a series of twelve lectures on the Old
(41:00):
Testament next year and a public venue. I think this
is partly the reason why, right, I much more what
I get our texts from people who will say, my
kid came home from school today and his teacher talked
about the fundraiser, right, Or my mom was in choir
rehearsal this morning and like the fundraiser came up as
(41:22):
an example.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Right, that's cool, It is cool.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
I don't really know what's happening in those conversations, you know, right, right,
but I know they're happening. Yeah, And it can't be.
It can't be bad, I think. No, whatever is being said,
whatever people are.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Concluding, I agree, it can't be. It's got to be
good things.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
And I would Yeah. I just love that it's continued on.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Have you had any interaction with the congregation and the people,
the victims, the people of that ward in Michigan.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Yeah, in this first day or so when I was
trying to get hold of people, right, Yeah, Well, I
should say, first, the order of things is that there
was a non LDS guy who was a candidate for
local political office there who reached out to me, who
knew I was trying to get hold of people and
(42:20):
reached out to try to be helpful. And he's one
of an example of like sort of people who knew
the situation that I could talk to and try and
get intelligence from and do my due diligence. He put
me in touch with a woman who was in the congregation,
and she put me in touch with the bishop, and man,
I really liked those people. I had just the one
(42:43):
conversation with each of them, you know, But everybody was
level headed, everybody was trying to help. Nobody was expressing,
you know, rancor or bitterness or anger or fear or
anything that you might think, you know, and nobody said, Dave,
what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
I can't believe.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
You're raising Why are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, why are you doing this? I mean I got
a few of those reactions, but not from anyone who
was on the ground. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
One of the things the bishop, the local pastor said was,
and we have not had a follow up conversation since,
but he said, he said, look, my ward boundaries include
the family home of the Sanfords. Like they don't they're
not lds, but like they are in my ward, and
(43:32):
at some point maybe you and I can go out
together and see how we can help them tonight. You know, again,
we haven't talked since. I don't know whether that will
ever happen, but like that was part of his reaction, right.
This is the guy who had been there three days
earlier when the bullets were flying, right, So yeah, I'm
(43:54):
a big fan of him and the locals.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
I talked to.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, that's amazing that they were so. I mean again,
he's the bishop of that congregation and he's thinking if
they were members, this is where they would come, right.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, that's my parishioner.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
That is my action, right, And you're thinking, wow about them,
that's amazing. So I guess what I would say to
you is, you've had this experience. You're a writer, you're
studying a lot, you know about faith, and what would
you say to someone after this experience who's holding onto
resentment or pain or anger, or you know about this
(44:33):
tragedy or any tragedy. Really, what would you say to
them after this experience?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Man, Jenna, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (44:41):
I'm always very I have very modest feelings about my
own ability to say anything that will help anyone. So
I what I really try to do when someone is
in pain as I try to listen. Yeah, but if
I had to say something, I would say.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Look.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
I think what I saw again and again is that
people experienced they regained their equilibrium, they regained perspective, they
got over their fear by I've never had a therapist,
so I don't know therapeutical language, and I feel like
I'm about to say a therapeutic thing, So this is
(45:20):
probably going to come out strange. But but but they
they took affirmative action. They seized control of the situation
by deliberately performing an act of love in a moment
when they felt like what what they what their natural
inclination was, is to act out of fear or anger. Right,
they instead went and and that that's the dozens of
(45:41):
people who said something to me, and you know, and
on the order of thank you, you gave me an opportunity,
it was that this is what they said, right, find
a way to give right, find a way to find
a way to be generous, find a way to get
beyond yourself. I think I think that spiritually good for you.
But I think that on a psychological level, I think
(46:03):
you're expressing a kind of an ownership. You're rather than
being dominated by the events, you are going to be
in charge.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yes, yes, absolutely, I think that that's a great point.
And it's yeah, taking a little bit of control, right,
Taking that fear or that anger, turning it into something
positive is going to lighten the load. It's going to
make it feel a little bit better, a little bit
more hopeful, a little bit less dark. Well, Dave, I
(46:34):
really appreciate you taking your time to talk to us
about this experience, and I'm really grateful that you did
what you saw was obviously a good idea and did
it because I think so much of what we want
to talk about here at the Ripple Effect is actually
taking that action. So thank you so much for being
with us today. And it was so great to talk
(46:56):
to you, Jenna.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Thank you very much for having me on. I had
great time.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I am so grateful for this conversation with Dave.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I think about what he did, and I love how
he flipped the script. He did something totally unexpected, and
I love his honesty about it.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
He wasn't sure, he wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
He had to go take his dog on a long
walk and decide, like, am I the right person to
do this? What could I possibly do to help? I
think sometimes we feel like maybe we're not the right
person to make change, or oh nobody wants me to
do it, And sometimes those opportunities to sort feel uncomfortable
or scary, and it makes you hesitate. And I love
(47:41):
that Dave pushed through that and he started something amazing in.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Spite of this horrible tragedy.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Right, It's like Dave gave thousands of people the opportunity
to do good and to think a little bit differently
and to look at people a little bit differently. His
decision created a rich efect beyond what he could have
even imagined.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
So listen, it's not always easy to keep the faith.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I know. It's not always easy to stay positive, trust me,
I know.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
But Dave's example shows us that no matter how dark
things get, and.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
They get pretty dark, there's always a little bit of
light and we can always find that light. So let's
stay connected, you and me, Let's stay connected.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
What do you say?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
You can tag me at jennikim Jones or use the
hashtag Ripple Effect. Tell me how you feel about this episode,
what you thought. Tell me about the ripple effects you
are hoping to create or have already created. And next
time on the Ripple Effect, we're headed to the barber shop.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
What I know.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You did not see that coming and you will not
believe what's going on in these barbershops.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
It is so much more than haircuts.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
These barbers have teamed up with doctors at Cedar Sinai
to help their clients take care of themselves and their community.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It's healthcare to the people. Don't miss it
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And especially don't miss it because it's our season finale
Hey there, it's me Jennikim Jones, and welcome to The
Ripple Effect, the podcast that proves one small act can
change everything, and that small act can turn a really
tragic experience into something truly inspiring. We're getting heavy really
quick here in our beginning of the episode, but let's
back it up. Let's back it up before we start.
(00:26):
This episode feels a little more personal to me. Some
of you might know this about me, but I am
a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints. Surprise, okay, it's not really a surprise. One
quick Google search, you'd know right away by listening to
this podcast you now know.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
A Mormon comedian.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But quick note, us Mormons, we're really trying to steer
clear of being called Mormons. Mormon's really just like our
nickname that we've had forever and ever, and we do
have a book of scripture called the Book of Mormon.
But sometimes it confuses people and they think, who's this Mormon?
Do you worship Mormon?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We're members of the Church of Jesus Christ because we
worship Jesus Christ. So if you have any friends or
acquaintances who are members of my same faith. You can
really impress them by using our church's name instead of
our nickname, and it's pretty cool. So now you know,
a comedian and a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of latterday Saints. I know it's a mouthful, it
(01:18):
is a long name, but I do love my faith.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
A few months back, while I was attending church, I
might have been looking at my phone.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Don't judge me.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
My scriptures are also on my phone, and I saw
some truly horrific news. One of our church buildings in
Michigan had been attacked by a gunman. I was sitting
in church, I'm surrounded by people that I love, and
I'm reading the unimaginable. We were devastated for this congregation,
and the news spread quickly with details of what had happened.
(01:48):
A man had driven his truck directly into one of
our buildings in Michigan, and when our members ran to
help him, assuming it was a terrible accident, he opened
fire on the people there. I think about that often.
You know, these people are at church and they saw
someone who they thought was hurt, and they ran to help.
Those are my people. There have been so many of
(02:11):
these kinds of attacks in recent years, many of them
religiously motivated, and it breaks my heart. I left my
home when I was eighteen, and I moved across the
country to New York City, and back then I was scared,
I was nervous, but I learned quickly that even though
I was different from many of the friends that I made,
we always had common ground. I have friends who absolutely
do not share my belief system, but they listen to me,
(02:34):
and I listen to them, and we find ways to
be friends. And I think we're missing.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So much of that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
We've got to get back to talking to one another
and to being okay with our differences. We have to
stop demonizing each other and look for ways to work together. Unfortunately,
four members of my faith did pass away in that attack,
and several others were injured. And oftentimes when these tragedies happen,
our first instinct is to just be so mad, right anger. Well,
(03:02):
one man saw this tragedy and he flipped the script
on everybody. Author and member of the church, Dave Butler,
looked at what had happened and realized that there were
other victims in this tragedy and did something completely unexpected.
He set up a fundraiser for the family of the shooter,
who had left behind a wife and a child. And
(03:23):
since Dave set up this effort, thousands of members of
my church and members of the community and other faiths
from all around the world have donated almost four hundred
thousand dollars. So today we're going to talk to Dave
and learn more about his decision to start this fundraiser
and the ripple effect that it created.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Hi, Jenna, Hello, thank you so much for being here
with us.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Dave, I'm honored.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, that's so kind of you.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
We're honored actually really to talk to you, and I'd
love to learn a little bit more about you personally. First,
I know that you're an author, but I feel like
there's even more.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Just tell us a little bit about who you are.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, So I'm married, we have three kids, two dogs.
The kids are young adults, by which I mean our
oldest is married. We have a daughter in college, and
we have our youngest is a senior in high school.
By background, I went to law school. That's my professional training.
I haven't really practiced law since twenty ten, a little
(04:28):
bit here and there, But what I always wanted to
be as a kid. And what I have been pursuing
seriously since twenty ten is I wanted to write novels.
So actually my inh what October, I think my twentieth
novel came out. I write science fiction and fantasy principally.
(04:48):
I've also written some nonfiction. I'm working now on a
nonfiction book about the Sermon on the Mount actually, which
I think we'll put out sometime this spring. In twenty
twenty four, I started with some part a small publishing
company which is doing very well. We've published religious nonfiction
for the first kind of year and a half, and
recently we've started putting out children's books, and in twenty
(05:11):
twenty six we'll start publishing fiction. So I'm an editor,
a publisher, I'm a novelist.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I used to be a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You've done it all.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I play guitar, strictly mediocre guitarist. I'm a worst banjo player.
I like board games. That's kind of who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, it sounds like you're a jack of all trades. Okay,
you've done it all. I mean, casually, you just dropped
that you've written so many books. That's amazing, that's so cool.
So now we meet here and you've done so many
amazing things, and now we're here talking today about this
tragedy that happened. You probably never imagined yourself being here
(05:54):
talking to me about this. I know that it was
a shock to me. Maybe let's go back in time, Dave,
and talk about the day that this all happened. When
we found out about this shooting in Michigan. I was
at church and I was I mean, yes, did I
open X at church when I probably should have been listening.
(06:14):
I did, But I found out about this horrible thing
that was happening, and we were shocked. I mean immediately,
we just couldn't believe that this was actually happening, and
we didn't know much at the time. It was literally
just happening. But take us back to that day for you.
What was that day like?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, I wasn't at church.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I was on the couch at home and saw the
news and then basically didn't stop watching the news for
all of that Sunday. The sheriff would have press releases
and sort of release more.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
At the same time. Because I am Mormon, I'm LDS.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Me too, So.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Maybe this was your experience too. Jenna.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
I don't know anybody who was there, but I know
lots of people who know somebody who was there, or
you know, have an uncle or something, right, And so
I got texts frequently through the day saying I heard
this from my cousin, I heard this from my sister
(07:21):
in law. Right, So you're sort of you're watching the
sheriff and you're you're getting supplemental information. So that was
that was basically my whole day on the Sunday. I'm
not sure I left the couch except to eat.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You know, I was in similar situation, constantly looking at
my phone, peeking at it, and my husband was just,
I guess, not online that day, and he, you know,
we have we have four young children. My oldest is
ten and my youngest is two, and so we're kind
of just getting along on the day and I'm trying
(07:53):
to learn more about this and my husband's playing it
really cool. And he had like decided that day he
wasn't going to go online. And I did bring it
up to him driving home from church because we had
separate cars, and then I didn't really want to bring
it up in front of the kids, so he had
no idea. He was living this peaceful. I'm like, this
is big thing that's happening, but the same thing, or
I was hearing different stories. You know, it's a small community.
(08:16):
It's we have a global church, but a at the
heart of it, we're all sort of connected, especially here
in the United States. And I think similar situation where
you're hearing different things and trying to piece together what
really happened. So as you're piecing together what happened, what
are your thoughts what led you to go, Hey, there's
(08:37):
something we could do here that's a little bit different.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
Yeah, there's a surprising amount of Twitter in this whole story. Okay,
So I was on Twitter, I get it, and somebody
and I think it was an account that said sometime Monday,
like kind of midday, they said, hey, in all of
this because and on Monday, people were sort of starting
fundraise and and we were we knew there were four
(09:02):
dead by then, and the Stakes center burned completely down,
I should say four dead, and also Jake Sandford, right,
four members of the congregation killed, right, and fundraiser were
being started, and the church was kind of, you know,
doing stuff. I think I think the church might even
by then had sort of kind of come in and
kind of organize some of the fundraising. And I think
there's like a there's a there's a fund that's sort of.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Matching contributions or something.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And this tweet or tweet reply said, hey, in all
of this is somebody thinking about the family of the shooter.
And that seemed obviously right to me, And so I
went and looked to see if the what the answer was,
and as far as I could tell, the answer was
that nobody that nobody had by this time, it's probably
(09:50):
sort of early evening Monday. Yeah, I went and took
the dogs for a walk, and I took the dogs
for a walk to sort of think about this. Also
because my dogs were harassing me because they know their
rights and they were demanding a walk.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
That's another reason, right, exactly, yes you.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Shouldren stare at me, Dave, Dave so, but also I
really wanted to just kind of think this through and
get my get my head right on this right, because
one of the questions is am I the right person
to do this? And it's not obvious that I am.
(10:29):
I've never raised funds for anybody, right, and my own
social media presence is not zero, but it's relatively modest.
For one thing, I deleted my Facebook account in twenty twenty. Right,
I'm not on the biggest platform, and that was where
my largest social media presence had once been. And for another,
(10:50):
I wanted to sort of make sure that I was
doing this for good reasons.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Look, I write fantasy and science novels. It's very easy
to imagine exciting things. It's very easy to sort of
get caught up in an idea of heroism. Right, I'm
going to save the day. Everybody will love me, right,
And Okay, I'm going to do this. I need to
make sure that I'm the right guy, and I need
to make sure i'm you know, my head is clear.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'm choosing this for right reason. So I walked the dogs.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
We did the so called long walkies about a mile
and a half, and by the end I had reached
the decision, Look, if no one else has done this,
when I get home, I'm going to do it.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
So I went yeah, looked, and no one had. So.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I am not a YouTuber exactly, but I'm I'm YouTube adjacent.
I'm a recurring guest on some LDS YouTube channels, and
so I have friends with platforms of seventy five thousand
and fifty thousand followers, right, And so part of my
(11:59):
thinking was, all right, I don't have a lot of reach,
but these people do. And so I got home and
I texted these friends and I said, listen, here's what
I'm thinking. I'm thinking I'm going to do this. You
guys willing to help? And they said, oh man.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
So then I tried to figure out how to do it,
and I could not make gofund me work. I went
to give Senngo, which is a smaller platform, and I
set it up and it went immediately perfect. Yes, now
it's still up. You can go look at it. It
is completely artless. There is no art Eitherre's a thing
(12:39):
that I wrote in about two minutes, right, and it's like, Hi,
I'm Dave. Here's the deal.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's all you need, I think. I mean you got
to get something going, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
Well yeah, and there's this screencap I took off the
Internet and like that's it.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
So it was about eight in the morning on Tuesday,
and I hit go and I told those guys, and
true to their word, they all immediately started sharing it
and like the dollar counter just started to roll, and
twelve hours later it was one hundred thousand dollars and
there were US senators.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Retweeting it incredible, and it just blew up. Yeah, that's
so cool.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, So there's like ten things I want to ask you,
But okay, so we're going to back it up and
say you keep saying it felt obviously like the right.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Thing to do.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, no one had done it yet, though, Dave, So
was it an obvious thing? You know, most people, I
would argue, they're thinking about the victims of the shooting.
They're not thinking about the family or other people. So
when you say obviously, where does that come from? Why
was it so obvious to you? And you know it
hadn't been done yet.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Maybe that's the other thing I contributed, And maybe this
has to do.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
With my immersion in the Sermon on the Mountain in
the last years, last months in this book I'm working on. Right,
Maybe that's it, because you're right, nobody else had done it,
although as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure there was
somebody's tweet that I suggested that suggested it. But there
(14:16):
is at least a certain amount of obviousness to it,
because something like ninety five hundred people. Jenna saw the
thing with no art, there's no glamour, there's no design, there,
no fancy graphics, nothing, and said, yeah, this is the
right thing to do. And if you go, you go. Look,
the average contribution is under forty bucks. So it is
(14:40):
ninety five hundred people, and a lot of them are
giving five dollars, ten dollars, twenty dollars. You know, there
have been a few people. Everybody has been generous that
you could pitch in it, all, right, is generosity. And
you know you used to phrase victims of the shooting.
I think what people recognized is that the widow is
(15:01):
also a victim, and the ten year old son of
the shooter is also a victim. Right, Right, If you
had a kid with no health issues at all, suddenly
you're ten and you're looking at the next sixty years
of your life. But man, especially like the next ten
ten to fifteen years getting through school and people at
some point are going to find out that your dad
(15:23):
did this, and like kids are merciless to each other,
this kid is gonna have some real hard moments.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Interviewers that I talked to at the time, right, meaning
very well, I'm not trying to imply that they were
foolish people or whatever, but they would ask questions. They
would say things like, Wow, you know, it's amazing that
you could forgive the guy son.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
What is there to forgive?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
He's innocent, he's a kid.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
He needs help, right.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, he does.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
And you're right, there is something. There's a kind of
a blind spot, right. And I don't know, maybe it's
maybe our national media culture has created the blind spot
the way we talk about these events, right, it's it's
sort of become a political football kind of a cultural thing,
right when you when you talk about you know, Columbine
(16:17):
or the shooter in the in the Nashville Christian Academy
or whatever. Right, And and there's a way we talk
about them, and the way we talk about them is
that the people who get shot and get shot at
by the shooter, those are the victims, right, and we
need to we need to think about them, and.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Then we argue about the shooter. Right. We argue about
the shooter for political reasons.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
They did it because they're on antidepressants, they did it
because they're alienated, because of they doesn't have a father.
They did it because we have too many guns. Right,
they have a fight every.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Time beside that side, and then you have to pick
a side.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah, And as as Jake Sandford's sister said to me,
nobody ever tells you what it's going to be like
when you're the family.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Of the shooter. Oh wow, right. None of them saw
this coming, none of them wanted it. Man. I talked.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I talked to friends, friends, Jake Sansford's friends. I talked
to neighbors. I talked to the family, you know, I
talked to people locals who kind of knew things about them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Nobody said, oh yeah, I saw this coming.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
This was obviously where this was going to end, right,
And so maybe in our culture we have created this
blind spot. And maybe I'm just the guy who saw
that one tweet whatever it really was, and took the
three minutes to set it is nothing, right. I typed
three paragraphs and put up a screen cap. But I
(17:44):
think the real story is about ninety five hundred people
who said, oh my gosh, that's obviously right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I love that you brought up, you know, this culture
that we kind of have, right, because this show is
called the ripple Effect, and we started this show because
our goal was We wanted to show that there are
great people in the world doing fantastic things and they're
spreading that good because we do live in a world
(18:10):
where the news is negative, negative. It's all these bad
things have happened, and the reaction is always, oh, I'm
going to get more angry about it. And so we
started the show in hopes to show that there actually
are great things happening in the world. And so when
the world feels so angry, why do you think this
(18:31):
took off so quickly? I saw it on X, I
saw the fundraiser right away, and I was blown away
by it. But why do you think that it worked,
Because it's, like you say, this is not the reaction
that we see on the news. The news is pick aside,
be angry about it.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that has to
be true is that actually very that many people, maybe
all of us, have an our nature, something that wants
us to do things like this. Right As to say, I,
I theologically Christianity generally, I specifically have a fair amount
(19:09):
of pessimism about human nature. Right we are we are
inclined to do dumb things. And the French philosopher RNA
Gerard talks about the problem of mimetic violence. In other words,
he says, we have an ape instinct, which is that
if if someone does violence to us, we do violence back.
And and I think it's probably true. But I think
(19:31):
one thing we learned is that we also have somewhere
in our nature a thing that that doesn't want that,
and that is and is willing to see a different
and a better, a better alternative.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
And I didn't.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
I like, there was no persuading, you know, I I
I didn't get up and exhort people. I had friends
on these YouTube channels, you know, who did little YouTube
broadcasts or who shared a share to you know, to
brief you know what you can put on X A
couple hundred characters, right, and people just immediately saw it
(20:06):
and responded to it. I know the podcast is called
the Ripple Effect. And I don't know all the ripples,
but I'll tell you one. I think that might be
that A month later, I think BYU's football team was
scheduled to play Texas A and M. And somebody on
the Texas A and M coaching staff man. I think
(20:27):
it might have been like an assistant.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Coach or a.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was Texas Tech.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Oh was it Texas Tech?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Okay, okay, so you've got this in your research. Okay,
So I'm going to get this wrong and then you
can correct me. So who had a GoFundMe outstanding? And
I forget what. I think it's his wife, Like his
wife had some kind of health issue or was in
an action, they didn't have insurance or something like this.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Yeah, And in anticipation of the game BYU started sharing
and this is a month after right started sharing around
that go fund me.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
And I think there raised ninety thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
It was fast. H Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I don't know that, you know, I certainly do. I'm
not trying to claim credit.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
I don't know that those people were looking at what
had just happened a month earlier and said, oh, yes,
let's do more of that. But like, it feels like
it's the same. At least, it's the same impulse, right,
at least it's the same desire to do good. And
then I think we lost to Texas tex I think.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
We did, but they're really good. Texas Tech's really good.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Okay. But here's the deal, though, I think it did
inspire people, and I because I saw that fundraiser too,
and I immediately thought of yours because I thought, Okay,
look at this, people are thinking differently. Because that's what
I think is so cool about your fundraiser is people
are thinking differently. Okay, Texas Tech is the rival, the
(21:50):
quote unquote enemy. We want to win, we want to
beat them. But also these people really need help and really,
at the end of the day, all children of God
and we should really just get along. So, you know,
I think it was a ripple effect, and I think
that you should be proud of that because it felt
(22:11):
like it to me at least when I saw it,
and not only that, it then inspired Texas Tech to
want to do good as well. So now you're reaching
a completely different community because you know, BYU is very
connected to our community and our church obviously, but now
you're going to another school which is not connected to
(22:31):
the LDS faith. Who's going like, hey, we want to
do good, we want to help too.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So we have a lot of depictions in culture right
now of our faith or people who are living our
I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
All the pop culture out there right now, and you know,
it's a lot of it is shocking to see. But
when you see this fundraiser and it take off and
members of the church helping, and then you see these
depictions in pop culture, how does that feel to you?
In this world we're living in.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Yeah, this is such a big, interesting, complicated subject, Jenna.
This is I know, there are some depictions of us
that are simply comical, and I think that are worth
just just laughing at.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So there was a Get Shorty.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
It was originally as a novel, and it's the most
insane depiction of Yeah, it's the most insane depiction of
Mormons you've ever seen, because he like piously refuses to
drink Coca cola, but he's perfectly happy to commit murder. So, like,
I watched something like that and I go, man, if
you want to believe that stuff about me, all I'm
all I can do is lull, Like I just it's
(23:47):
that's that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Right, right? But also, man, there are depictions that are
that are gross, that can feel like a betrayal, Like
this is like it's there's no human learn it. It's
not funny and it's depressing. You know, I don't know
what to do about it. So I'm a writer, so.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I'm going to like, I don't know, I may have
a different take on this than others. The problem is
we have our own sort of propaganda view, which is
very cheery, perfectly clean, right, not a hair at a place,
six kids all in order on the bench, right, always happy.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
And like that's not right either. It's nice.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
It'd be nice if everybody was like that, right, But like,
I think actually Mormon artists have a responsibility to try
to tell honest stories about Mormons, and that means showing
people who are funny looking weirdos like me, right, have
an absolutely abysmal sense of fashion and grooming.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
But nevertheless, somehow I was able to sort of participate
in this transcendent moment, right, Like, that's a true, an
interesting and a complex.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Story, right, it's so interesting. I'm a comedian. That's what
I do stand up for my this is you know,
I love podcasting, but I also do stand up and
a lot of times I don't talk about my faith,
and very often occasionally so, but really not very often
at all. And people will come up and go, wait
a minute, how did I laugh at all that stuff?
(25:24):
You're one of those people, and I'm like, because I'm
just like you, I swear all of that was just real.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That was just me.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We have all the same feelings about dumb stuff that
I make jokes about. So I guess you're right. We
got to be out there doing it, portraying who we
are and being honest about it. I love to be
honest about it. But let's get back to what we've
been talking about. You've said, and I've heard you say
this and maybe some of your interviews, that our faith,
your faith has taught you to love your enemies, and
(25:54):
so I would love for you to kind of elaborate
on that in these sort of situations where people might
feel more anger. You know, this shooting happens, and I
saw a lot of people who were not angry, even
though you kind of have a right to be mad
that this happened. People died, we lost an entire church.
(26:15):
But can you talk to me a little bit about
this feeling of love your enemies and how that teaching
has guided you.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
You know, interviewers at the time asked me, Hey, what
is there unique about Mormons that made you do this?
And let me come back to my answer that I
actually gave. I could have said, oh, man, there are
unique things about Mormons. Right, my head could have been
kind of approaching this through some uniquely Mormon stories.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Okay, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
For example, if someone's listening and you're a reader of
the Book of Mormon, you might be thinking about like
the attitude type language more mourn with those who mourn, right,
And I could have said that. I could have said, look,
that's part of my makeup. That's one of the things
that probably was down in me.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
And I didn't. Right. I could have what I said,
and and what was it was true? Right? Was that
I I didn't at any point think right from the
moment I saw that other person's tweet, I never thought, oh,
you know, Jake sands first kid is my enemy and
I need I need to live up to my moral
obligation and be good to my enemy.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
I never saw him as my enemy, right. I never
saw Jake Jake's widow is my enemy. She didn't choose
this right, no way. She woke up Sunday morning proud
that her husband was going off to murder Mormons.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
So for me, it was it was the Epistle of
James for me. James says pure religion and undefiled. Is
this that you visit the fatherless and the widows and
their affliction? Right, I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that's what it is,
like verse chapter one, verse twenty five, something like that.
And for me that was the obvious thing, like this
is this is it. There's a there's a widow, there's
(27:58):
a father's child.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
But let me just.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Say here too. I know that Mormons were not the
only people who contributed. I know that Mormons were many,
maybe most, but I also know that there are people
who were from all kinds of backgrounds. And you can
read the comments to people, will you know, give ten
bucks and say something, And they are quoting hymns, and
(28:22):
they're quoting scriptures, and they're giving personal messages to the family,
you know. And it's clear that for some people, the
experience they're having is exactly one of forgiving an enemy.
And they're not really forgiving, you know, the ten.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Year old boy.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Right, of course, they're forgiving. They're forgiving the dad, right,
and they are they're showing their forgiveness. They're making their
forgiveness material in the world by saying, look, you know
what I can do? Right that the other cheek that
I can turn is that I can help your widow
(29:04):
and your kid, right. And I think for thousands of
people that was the experience and I got I got
many messages over the last three months. I guess it's
been from people who would say something like, thank you
for giving me the opportunity just to let go of
let go of my anger.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
And for many people, I think it was love your enemies, right.
And I think I think for you know, for for others,
maybe they had sort of the same experience I did,
where it wasn't about my enemies, it was here's here's
another victim that maybe is less obvious. Right, there's a
high level dynamic here, which is that which unites everybody
(29:51):
in this which is the terrible thing has happened, and
we can come together to help the people who have
been harmed, even people that we might not ordinarily see,
might not immediately think of as being victims.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, you gave people this opportunity to forgive, which I
think creates you know, we were talking about ripples, the
ripple effect, this ripple where you look at the world
very differently when you do that, like when you have
the opportunity to like, look at something really hard and
tragic and to say I forgive this person, or I'm
(30:32):
giving because I want to serve and do what Christ
would do. That you kind of see the world differently
after that, I think, and I wonder if this gives
and go gave people the opportunity to do this and
then look at their own lives and go, hey, maybe
(30:53):
I should be less angry about this, or maybe I
should be a little bit now to my neighbors, or
you know, politically, maybe I can calm down on some
of my ideas or whatever it might be. Have you
felt that shift at all in your life or in
people's lives as they've messaged you.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah, my own perspective has changed. And that's a fair
description of kind of the I don't know, realization maybe
is the right word, or sort of just different feeling
about stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
And I'm grateful for that. And I've actiable.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Message me and say, you know, well, I've got a
surprising number of messages of people talking about going back
to church, which is I think probably an example a
manifestation of what you're talking about, right, Yeah, remembering, oh.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Like this is why church, right, whether your church.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Was an LDS congregation or something else, right, right, like,
oh yeah, this is the kind of thing the church's
teaching us, and I should be in that.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
I've heard from various people saying that's been their response
I had. I think Arthur Brooks was out here as
an organization called Faith Matters, and they had him out
I was talking to Faith Matters founders in November. I
think they had Arthur Brooks out here. He's a public
policy researcher I think sort of seen as being on
(32:24):
the sort of socially conservative side.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And he was out here.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Speaking at UVU, the same campus where Charlie Kirk had
been shot, and I think maybe like just a couple
of weeks after, and he was talking about the question
of like, what, you know, how do we get out
of this extreme polarization in society that our politics seems
inexorably to push us to. And the answer that he
(32:50):
gave was was that you should probably imitate the Mormons.
That more people imitated the Mormons, that seemed to be
the way out. So we were noticed, you know, nationwide,
we were noticed. We got we we again. The ninety
five hundred people are not all LDS, but this is
seen as a Mormon reaction.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Which is great.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You know, it's what we were talking about earlier, showing
you know, who we really are and what.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Our culture, what we aspire it to be.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
You know. I mean, we're not perfect people, but what
we would hope that we would do in times of tragedy. Yep,
which is pretty cool. That's interesting. That's uh, I'm blushing.
He thought we were so great, I know, look.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
At us, look at us, go see us on a
bad day.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, yeah, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
It wasn't a pre or post BYU game or something wild, right, yeah, No,
we're BYU's got good fans.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
We know that. We've already talked about that.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Okay, So I guess I'd love to talk to you
about how things have been since then. You know, some
time has passed. I don't think there's a lot of
you know, media talking about this experience. I think, you know,
there's always some new story that we've moved on to.
So how has it been since you started the fundraiser?
And where are you guys at now?
Speaker 4 (34:11):
So I didn't know the family at all. I started
the fundraiser and I started at the same time trying
to contact them, and I would read news stories on
what was going on, and wherever they seemed to quote
somebody on the ground. I then tried to reach out
to those reporters and say, listen, you talked to the father,
(34:34):
can you put him in touch with me?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Right?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Right?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
And I reached out to Detroit Free Press and New
York Times reporters and somebody else I forget who had
None of them answered. None of them answered at all,
but the one guy was very helpful. There was a
Fox News guy who was on the ground. Two things
happened basically simultaneously. I got talking with him, and then
(34:58):
people reached out to me through Twitter. So on day two,
so Wednesday morning, someone in this mass of X Post
comments said hey, listen, I'm Jake Sandford's sister, right, And
I was.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Like, oh, So.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
I had a little back and forth in an email
with her, but I was like, man, I mean, one
of the terrible things that might happen is if I'm
accidentally talking to the wrong people.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
So, I had just talked to this guy at Fox
and he was great, really wanted to be helpful, And
I said, listen, can you confirm with me that this
is who she says? She is Can you go tell
me that this is Jake Sandford's sister. So he went
and kicked the tires and came back and said, yeah,
you're talking to the right person. So I had the
(35:43):
first call on I think it was Wednesday, right, So
the shootings on Sunday, Tuesday morning. I set up a
good gifts and go it's the next day. I have
a first call with the sister. And I was driving,
and that was a bad time to take the call
because pretty much for an hour, she cried, and I cried,
and I got lost somewhere in Springville and was like
(36:03):
driving out and kind of the edge of the lake,
trying to figure out how to get to the stupid warehouse.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I was trying to find my way to and.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
I see through the tears, I managed not to run
over anybody. This is when she said to me, they
never show you, none of the TV shows, none of
the news. They never show you what it's like to
be the family of the shooter. And she said there
were people who some people were great. So she works
(36:31):
with one of the guys who goes to that LDS congregation.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Oh wow, and so you know Sunday morning this happens.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Monday, she calls and is like, I can't come back
into work, you know, I just I can't for now, right,
and I can't face in particular this other guy.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah right, wow who.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
My brother showed up at his church and killed four people.
And and so she stayed home for two or three days.
And I think it was on the Wednesday that her
boss called her and said, hey, so and so came
in to work today, and the first thing he did
(37:15):
is go try and find you to.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Give you a hug.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So some people have been amazing, some people were not amazing.
So people followed the Sandford family around town, and they
stood on the sidewalk and stared through their windows. And
so one of the stories she told me is that
I think they hadn't they sort of hunke her down
(37:41):
and hadn't left the house. The only reason she responded
to me an X they turned off all the devices
is because a family friend came over and said, look,
this guy has raised one hundred thousand dollars and he's
trying to find you. And so she got on and
kind of quietly in it, replied to my post, said hey,
(38:04):
this is me, right. She said they'd been home Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
and on Tuesday night her father had to sort of
finally leave the house for some reason. I think they'd
run out of food or something, right, Yeah, so she said, my.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Dad went out and got in his truck, turned around
the truck.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
The Serious XM came on and it was Glenn Beck's show,
and Glenn Beck was just reading the comments of the
people who contributed to the Gifts and Go and she said,
my dad just started crying because, like, for the first
time in forty eight hours, somebody didn't hate us, you know.
(38:45):
So that was the beginning of my contact with the family.
We haven't been in constant contact. We've had sort of
periodic contact. I had a conversation the next day with
the widow is a short call.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
I said two things. I said.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
First, I said, listen, this is going to be difficult
to believe right now, but God loves you and you
are going.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
To be okay. Yeah, And we all cried a little bit,
of course.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
And then I said, I said, hey, listen, you know,
at the time, I think it was eighty five hundred
people or something, but whatever, I said, these thousands of
people have given me their money, I need to be responsible,
so I could look them in the eye and tell them.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
I was real careful.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
I think you ought to think about rather than me
sending you a pile of cash, that we set up
something like a trust, so it just helps you. It
just gives you a base payment every month to just
make sure, you know, just to make the next ten
years especially easier.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Right, She's doing all the work. Like again, my role
is actually very small.
Speaker 4 (39:56):
So she's been dealing with the trust professional and a
trust lawyer and kind of getting set up so that
I think sometime soon here it'll be ready and I'm
moving at their speed. Right, I am not controlling The
money is still sitting in the website because the family
is doing this so we can put the money into trust.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Right. I've never met them. I may meet them this spring,
We'll see.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
But I.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Feel grateful that I've been able to just be a
positive presence, you know, to represent.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Hope. Yeah, you say, look, there's.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Love in the world for you in this terrible, terrible time,
you know, I feel very grateful for that. There have
been for me some funny doors that have opened, like
people who have showed up and wanted to sort of
work with me or talk to me because they they
heard this. A film producer, you know, I got invited
to curate a series of twelve lectures on the Old
(41:00):
Testament next year and a public venue. I think this
is partly the reason why, right, I much more what
I get our texts from people who will say, my
kid came home from school today and his teacher talked
about the fundraiser, right, Or my mom was in choir
rehearsal this morning and like the fundraiser came up as
(41:22):
an example.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Right, that's cool, It is cool.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
I don't really know what's happening in those conversations, you know, right, right,
but I know they're happening. Yeah, And it can't be.
It can't be bad, I think. No, whatever is being said,
whatever people are.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Concluding, I agree, it can't be. It's got to be
good things.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
And I would Yeah. I just love that it's continued on.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Have you had any interaction with the congregation and the people,
the victims, the people of that ward in Michigan.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Yeah, in this first day or so when I was
trying to get hold of people, right, Yeah, Well, I
should say, first, the order of things is that there
was a non LDS guy who was a candidate for
local political office there who reached out to me, who
knew I was trying to get hold of people and
(42:20):
reached out to try to be helpful. And he's one
of an example of like sort of people who knew
the situation that I could talk to and try and
get intelligence from and do my due diligence. He put
me in touch with a woman who was in the congregation,
and she put me in touch with the bishop, and man,
I really liked those people. I had just the one
(42:43):
conversation with each of them, you know, But everybody was
level headed, everybody was trying to help. Nobody was expressing,
you know, rancor or bitterness or anger or fear or
anything that you might think, you know, and nobody said, Dave,
what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
I can't believe.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
You're raising Why are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, why are you doing this? I mean I got
a few of those reactions, but not from anyone who
was on the ground. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
One of the things the bishop, the local pastor said was,
and we have not had a follow up conversation since,
but he said, he said, look, my ward boundaries include
the family home of the Sanfords. Like they don't they're
not lds, but like they are in my ward, and
(43:32):
at some point maybe you and I can go out
together and see how we can help them tonight. You know, again,
we haven't talked since. I don't know whether that will
ever happen, but like that was part of his reaction, right.
This is the guy who had been there three days
earlier when the bullets were flying, right, So yeah, I'm
(43:54):
a big fan of him and the locals.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
I talked to.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, that's amazing that they were so. I mean again,
he's the bishop of that congregation and he's thinking if
they were members, this is where they would come, right.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, that's my parishioner.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
That is my action, right, And you're thinking, wow about them,
that's amazing. So I guess what I would say to
you is, you've had this experience. You're a writer, you're
studying a lot, you know about faith, and what would
you say to someone after this experience who's holding onto
resentment or pain or anger, or you know about this
(44:33):
tragedy or any tragedy. Really, what would you say to
them after this experience?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
Man, Jenna, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (44:41):
I'm always very I have very modest feelings about my
own ability to say anything that will help anyone. So
I what I really try to do when someone is
in pain as I try to listen. Yeah, but if
I had to say something, I would say.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Look.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
I think what I saw again and again is that
people experienced they regained their equilibrium, they regained perspective, they
got over their fear by I've never had a therapist,
so I don't know therapeutical language, and I feel like
I'm about to say a therapeutic thing, So this is
(45:20):
probably going to come out strange. But but but they
they took affirmative action. They seized control of the situation
by deliberately performing an act of love in a moment
when they felt like what what they what their natural
inclination was, is to act out of fear or anger. Right,
they instead went and and that that's the dozens of
(45:41):
people who said something to me, and you know, and
on the order of thank you, you gave me an opportunity,
it was that this is what they said, right, find
a way to give right, find a way to find
a way to be generous, find a way to get
beyond yourself. I think I think that spiritually good for you.
But I think that on a psychological level, I think
(46:03):
you're expressing a kind of an ownership. You're rather than
being dominated by the events, you are going to be
in charge.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Yes, yes, absolutely, I think that that's a great point.
And it's yeah, taking a little bit of control, right,
Taking that fear or that anger, turning it into something
positive is going to lighten the load. It's going to
make it feel a little bit better, a little bit
more hopeful, a little bit less dark. Well, Dave, I
(46:34):
really appreciate you taking your time to talk to us
about this experience, and I'm really grateful that you did
what you saw was obviously a good idea and did
it because I think so much of what we want
to talk about here at the Ripple Effect is actually
taking that action. So thank you so much for being
with us today. And it was so great to talk
(46:56):
to you, Jenna.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Thank you very much for having me on. I had
great time.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I am so grateful for this conversation with Dave.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I think about what he did, and I love how
he flipped the script. He did something totally unexpected, and
I love his honesty about it.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
He wasn't sure, he wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
He had to go take his dog on a long
walk and decide, like, am I the right person to
do this? What could I possibly do to help? I
think sometimes we feel like maybe we're not the right
person to make change, or oh nobody wants me to
do it, And sometimes those opportunities to sort feel uncomfortable
or scary, and it makes you hesitate. And I love
(47:41):
that Dave pushed through that and he started something amazing in.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Spite of this horrible tragedy.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Right, It's like Dave gave thousands of people the opportunity
to do good and to think a little bit differently
and to look at people a little bit differently. His
decision created a rich efect beyond what he could have
even imagined.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
So listen, it's not always easy to keep the faith.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I know. It's not always easy to stay positive, trust me,
I know.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
But Dave's example shows us that no matter how dark
things get, and.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
They get pretty dark, there's always a little bit of
light and we can always find that light. So let's
stay connected, you and me, Let's stay connected.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
What do you say?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
You can tag me at jennikim Jones or use the
hashtag Ripple Effect. Tell me how you feel about this episode,
what you thought. Tell me about the ripple effects you
are hoping to create or have already created. And next
time on the Ripple Effect, we're headed to the barber shop.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
What I know.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
You did not see that coming and you will not
believe what's going on in these barbershops.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
It is so much more than haircuts.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
These barbers have teamed up with doctors at Cedar Sinai
to help their clients take care of themselves and their community.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It's healthcare to the people. Don't miss it
Speaker 1 (48:54):
And especially don't miss it because it's our season finale
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.