July 17, 2024 • 53 mins
While therapists are often revered for our contributions to the mental wellness of others, our culture can also be guilty of denying them us humanity with assumptions that we’re always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of a dime or that we don’t feel things too.
Today, I brought the group chat back together to discuss how therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. Dr. Ayanna Abrams and Dr. Joy Beckwith joined me to discuss the importance of setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice, how to ensure we’re not allowing our work to bleed into our personal lives, and the biggest misconceptions people tend to have about therapists' lives.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
Resources & Announcements
Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals.
Join us in Atlanta on July 18th &19th for our Inaugural Therapist Summit. This is an incredible opportunity to gather to learn more about things like scaling your practice through PR and getting a book deal as a mental health professional. There will also be lots of time to connect with colleagues. Learn more and register to join us HERE.
Where to Find Our Guests
Dr. Joy Beckwith
Dr. Ayanna Abrams
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty eight of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city? Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another? I'm
(01:20):
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. While therapists are often revered for our contributions
(01:43):
to the mental wellness of others. Our culture can also
be guilty of denying us humanity with assumptions that we're
always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of
a dime, or that we don't feel things too. Today,
I've brought the group chat back together to discuss how
therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. First, we
(02:03):
have doctor Ayana Abrams, a licensed clinical psychologist who works
under her solo practice, Ascension Behavioral Health. She's the co
founder of Not So Strong, a mental health program curated
for black women to strengthen their sense of self and
connection to others through the use of vulnerable storytelling. We
also have doctor Joy beckw who is a psychologist, resident
(02:26):
radio expert, speaker, and college professor. Her passion for bridging
the gap between the mind body connection has allowed her
to work with executives, entertainers, professional athletes, and entrepreneurs nationwide.
Some of the points we discuss are the importance of
setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice,
(02:47):
how to ensure we're not allowing our work to bleed
into our personal lives and the biggest misconceptions people tend
to have about therapists lives. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please sharing with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us
over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode.
(03:08):
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, hello friends, thank you
so much for joining me again. We have reconvened, but
back in our little zoom boxes, not on stage this time.
Kind of said feels good to be good to be
always a pleasure, of course, of course, So today we
(03:31):
are talking about therapists as humans, so really the personhood
of therapists, because I think sometimes people engage with us
almost as empathy robots, as opposed to like hold people
with our own stuff going on, and I think people
are sometimes surprised that go therapists have feelings too. So
(03:52):
before we jump into the conversation, though, I don't know
that we have actually like fully introduced y'all to the
people in terms of how long you've been practicing like
you're areas of specialty. So doctor Joy, can you start
off and just let us know, like how long you've
been practicing in like what it is you actually do
as a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Absolutely, So I've been practicing since two thousand and fourteen. Well,
I've been private practice since twenty fourteen. I was at
a hospital before then. My specialty is trauma, but I
see a lot of individuals who have depression, anxiety. I
work with a lot of what I call like high
functioning individuals, so high functioning athletes, entertainers, CEOs, and especially entrepreneurs.
(04:32):
But trauma is my specialty. I am a team psychologist
for a local professional basketball league, so I do some
consult work there, and I'm the co founder off for
Atlanta and we specialize in trauma. Do a lot of
trauma work, anxiety work, depression work, so just all the
things for mental wellness, especially if you are out here
(04:56):
like life is life and so really really busy in
your respect to space and what about you, Dot Diana.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I have been in practice in Atlanta since twenty twelve,
solo practice. The name is Asension Behavioral Health, where I
specialize in mood disorders, depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, by polar disorder.
I work with a lot of graduate students, medical professionals
from medical school and physicians. I work with a lot
of entrepreneurs, and I also do an arm of my
(05:25):
practice does corporate consultings or corporate wellness navigating kind of
the DEI space and corporations more so towards racial equity
in the workplace. And you'll see me on podcasts and
all the such right talking about various things.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Beautiful, beautiful. So I'm curious for both of you, what
are some of the challenges that have come up for
you being a psychologist kind of like the tension between
being a mental health professional but also being like a
full human. What are some of the unexpected challenges that
have come up for you there?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
I think one of the things that I would say
terms of challenge, it's just I think goes back to
what you were saying earlier, doctor Joyl where people don't expect,
you know, you to have feelings or to be just
as impacted about something.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
As they are.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's like, well, no, like that hurts, and so I
feel the pain as well. And I think also whether
it's like having feelings, having empathy, like being impacted, but
also I think like having the answers, I think because
this is what we do. Like people do think like okay,
so what do you think or what's best here? And
it's like, well, no, no, no, there are so many
factors that influence decision, and so it's like I don't
(06:34):
have all the answers. I do have feelings and I
feel I get sad all the things as well, like
I'm impacted by the world just like you are. So
I think that's a challenge of like, girl, I don't
have the answer. I'm still processing too.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
What I would add to that is that I think
that people struggle a lot with me, and I think
therapists general like having boundaries, right, like not being available
for certain things, whether that be emotionally, whether that be advice.
I think it shows up in my practice right where
I just need to have this availability because someone's in
pain and needs to be seen when they want to
(07:08):
be seen or need to be seen. So I see
that a lot, and definitely in more personal relationships. I
do notice this dynamic online as well, though, that when
therapists show up and have problems with certain things or
feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like you
shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist,
or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist.
(07:28):
And I literally have had people in my personal life say,
but you know how to get out of that, you
know how to not feel that. So I don't even
really understand how you could feel anxious about this or
how you could feel upset about this because you can
work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when
people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that
we cannot work on ourselves in that way. People get
(07:51):
very confused when I say I have a therapist. They're
just like you, all right, So then they also make
this further association as something must be really wrong if
I have a therapist, So how could I be a
therapist who has a therapist. So depending on the relationship,
people go further with that. But it's usually about this
lack of allowance to be vulnerable essential or to have
vulnerabilities that shows up a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And Nade what would you say lead to some of
that confusion or a misinterpretation of who a therapist is,
that we wouldn't have our own therapists, or that we
have all the answers like what do you think contributes
to people thinking.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That, well, we look at a personal relationships without going
too far depending on who was the person right, it
serves them right to not have to navigate my feelings.
It's beneficial for them for me to either have all
the answers or not need this or whatever it is.
So I think depending on the person and the relationship,
it can show up from that place. I think too,
(08:46):
it's people's lack of understanding of vulnerability and not seeing
therapists as humans. So they really just don't see that
we would also need and deserve the same kind of
help and care that other people have. So I'll use
you try to give the example of like, well, your
medical doctor has a physician. I've literally had somebody say
like they shouldn't need one. But for the most part,
(09:07):
when I say that, people understand it, like if your
medical doctor breaks a leg or does this, like they
still get to go to a doctor. Why would it
be any different for us? But it seems like, again,
because people see us in this very limited way in
the room, they view us as omniscient, they view us
as all knowing, then it really doesn't click that we
don't have the answers to things. So there's this kind
(09:29):
of strange way where I think people put therapists on
a pedestal as the people who can save a lot
of stuff. Well, at the same time, there's a lot
of people who don't trust therapists. So I think depending
on who you're coming across, you'll get either respond to
your vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's great points And doctor Joy, you mentioned this idea
that you have all the advice or people will come
to you and say like, well, what do you think?
How do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So we're talking about like outside of the therapy session,
So I have a lot of loose sayings. Sometimes people
are like what do you think. I'm like, no, no, I
don't think. So that you understand that this is a
different type of relationship and I may say something in
this context of this relationship that isn't necessarily what I
would say in a therapeutic relationship, right because those dynamics
are different. But also knowing when I'm not supposed to
(10:14):
have any advice or I'm not supposed to have the
answers in those.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Spaces and just being okay with it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I really don't know or I don't have any thoughts
about that, or saying like I think should talk to
your therapist. I think really clear boundaries about this is
my friends circle, if this is my family. I love
being able to turn off the work that I do
as much as you can when you can turning it
off there to say I don't have the answers or
I don't really know what do you think, and being
able to give it back to them, trying not to
get into this role just because they expect us to
(10:39):
have the answers does not mean I have to have
the answers, and knowing that I don't have to wear
that hat, because once you start having all the answers,
then of course they come back to you because you
typically have all.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Of the answers.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So I usually sometimes say I don't have like what
do you think? I don't think, or like okay, we're
going to ask out to joy about it and I'm like,
let's not, let's not so, but I make it in
a way where they understand I'm not being funny, but
sometimes I don't have the answers and having really healthy
about just knowing like uh uh no, you don't want me.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
In that, and it does feel like a tight line
to walk, because I mean in your friendship circles and
in your other relationships, people naturally like ask for advice,
and I think that that's human, but it does feel
like there is a different expectation because of what you do,
maybe as a mental health professional, that there is like
an added layer of like, okay, a professional opinion as
(11:26):
opposed to like just a girlfriend opinion.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Absolutely, and the weight they put on our answers or
even if you do have a thought like you know, oh, girl,
like whatever you want to say, it's like, no matter
what anyone else says, because you are a professional, because this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Is what you do.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
The weight that they put on your response. And sometimes
I say, like, you know, I don't know, but I
think you should probably talk, so I'll give just a
little bit of something like to guide because you do
have some thoughts, but no, like, I also don't want
that dynamic where I'm responsible for something or start to
wear that hat in my friend relationships, Like I just
want to be like joy in these relationships. And I
think I also have really good friends who they may
(12:00):
what do you think you think that's a problem, Like, girl,
you know, it's a problem but they're not really digging
deep and actually expecting to have therapeutic conversations because they know,
like we are friends for real in real life. But yeah,
the weight that they put on our responses because this
is what we do professionally is pretty significant.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Anything to answer that back day, No, I.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Agree with that, and I was gonna add the weight
that they put on that and this assumption that we
can't wait to help that I want to be able
to answer this question or give you advice because I
think I know the right answer. Like I will have
mostly like family members. If I say they're saying something
and I don't jump in, They're just like, are you
not going to say anything? What do you think about this?
And I'm like, I'm listen. I don't feel any different
(12:40):
than such and such does or such and such does,
But they kind of assume this like eagerness to help
that because we have the skills to help other people,
that we want to be using our skills all over
the place at breakfast, at brunch, at the family reunion,
that we just want to help when we see or
hear that they might be a problem, that that's where
we want to be spending our time a lot of
people don't see this as a profession of ours that
(13:03):
we're just supposed to be these bleeding hearts, which I
also didn't add before, like something that that surprises me.
It doesn't surprise me anymore. But that whole bleeding heart
piece is that when any conversations come up around fees
or rates, right, there's a different response that I get
when money is involved in stuff because people have this
association of well, that shouldn't be something that costs that much.
(13:25):
That should be something again that I should be able
to access because it's about health and because it's about
care for people. So you putting a barrier what they
see as a barrier to this means that we're doing
something that's awry in this field.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I think it goes back to what you're saying earlier,
doctor A, like they expect us to be all knowing
but not necessarily all experiencing, and it's like, well, no,
like I also experience those feelings. I also may have
some anxiety around the things that I want to be
able to do this year and being able to do
those things or carry those things out. So it's just
making sure that we add the human aspect to it
like no, like, I also have to make a living
(14:01):
as well, and my goal is to be able to
do both, to be able to give you great service,
to be able to be here and care for you,
but also to be able to afford margin.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You wouldn't work for free. Why would you expect us
to work for free? You literally would not work for
free and or a discounted in them like we are
expected to do.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So I'm curious because we know that so much of
the work that we do as therapists is mediated through
who we are as persons, right as people. How do
you balance or set boundaries around what kinds of clients
you are seeing or when a client's stuff kind of
activates your stuff, what kinds of things are in place,
or how do you think about that as a therapist
(14:42):
to kind of both protect yourself and the clients jumping.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Into my therapy sessions, Doctor Joey my business because I
have a right I had. We know I have a
soft spot and I had to have a very hard
time saying no to black women who want to be
clients in my practice, and I still have a hard
time with that now. I have boundary issues around that.
So I'm probably seeing too many clients right because of that,
(15:08):
So I think again kind of consultation supervision, right, that
the things that we've been trained right to make sure
that we are doing to support ourselves. But I know
that one of my softer spots or kind of vulnerabilities
is black women are black people in pain. And I
really need to remember the aspects of my burnout and
how it shows up and when I'm doing too much.
(15:29):
And I've had to really come into that practice and
attunement the last five or so years because I wasn't
screening right in a certain way in terms of like
who I was taking in my practice. I was just
so concerned about the systemic barriers and not wanting to
be one of those barriers and wanting to make sure
that people got good care, but also having to really
remind myself that I am human. There's but so many
(15:51):
hours in a day that it is safe for me
and for clients in terms of how many people I'm
seeing and how much time I'm spending with clients that
I can do but so much paperwork and still be
on top of my business kind of acumen in my
practice as well as serving clients well and having to
really grieve that I can't do more, that I can't
see as many clients as I want to do. And
that's been this ongoing practice for me, the grieving, the
(16:14):
boundary work, the acceptance of my humanity, I mean, just
what that means in terms of my limits. So maybe
finding some other ways to have larger impact because I
can't take you all in my kind of one to
one or one to two practice.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
In terms of couples, Yeah, that makes sense. I think
I did some of the exact same things, doctor A.
Just the heaviness that I feel when I feel like, ooh,
this person would really be a good fit, or I
feel that I could really help this person, but also
knowing that I don't have the capacity and being able
to sit with that. I think for me, I had
to navigate or had to explore what's the story that
(16:47):
I'm telling, Like what's driving this need for me to
want to see as many people as possible and the
effect of that like Okay, so now you're sad and
now you're feeling down. Are you afraid? What are you
afraid of? And also the narrative that like, hey, there
are some other excellent people that can provide this service
or it does not have to be mean, Like as
much as I would love for it to be me,
but it's like, if not me, I have a great
(17:08):
nice circle of capable therapists, Like let me send you
to this person. I know you'd be in really good hands.
But I think it starts off with screening really, really
well as much as possible, so you'll know, like, hey,
who do I work well with, and trying to be
able to find that ideal client that you feel that's
a really good match early on, and then definitely the consultation,
the supervision, the groups have been very very helpful, and
(17:32):
then knowing that it does not have to be me.
It does not have to be me. I can also
refer them out to somebody, but it is really tough.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Because it's like, well, you know, well.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I could put them in on Friday at twelve and
it's like, okay, so what are you gonna have lunch?
But being able to sit in that space like no,
you can't. You said you were going to do notes
during that time, but really thinking about by you doing that,
what are you giving up? So you're adding this person
and what are you taking away from yourself, whether it's
my time that I set aside to do notes or
to basically just have lunch.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
You know, something that I wish we had more training
on in our or at least I know my graduate
program didn't do the best at this. I think that
a lot of therapists, emerging therapists, and even therapists I
guess I'm considered mid career now, really struggled with internalizing
the brokenness of the mental health care system, so really
internalizing this responsibility that, oh, I know that there are
(18:22):
barriers so let me not perpetuate the barriers in this.
We know the barriers and the stigma associated with black people.
So oh my goodness, if a black person has done
all the work to do this courageous thing and ask
for therapy, I can't turn them away now because I've
internalized that they not ever going to try again. Right, So,
it was all that stuff that was really really taking
over that I still have to keep an eye on,
(18:43):
but I've put some distance in between it being my
responsibility to like save the mental health care system, right
that none of us can do that as one therapist
or even like a group practice. But I don't think
that that is offered to us I don't think we
are taught about the importance of that kind of differentiation,
but I know that for a long time, I really
took it in as my responsibility to not be the
(19:04):
broken system.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah, and then doctor A also thinking about too though,
if we do feel to capacity or if we are
taking on all of that, what is it due to us?
We talked about burnout earlier and just making sure that
we don't show up like you know, Okay, finally we
schedule them, we have them in for a session, but
are you getting the best me? Because we know what
we're like when we're seeing we know what our sweet
spot is, we know what it's like when we're really
(19:27):
full of energy and ready to see the clients that
we see, and knowing that if we're over that limit,
am I doing them a disservice? Like we talk about
doing no harm. It's like, okay, so what point am
I exhausted? What point am I tired? And the things
where you know, I love reading and just finding articles
and things for clients sometimes outside of session, and it's like, well,
if you're so packed, then you're tired. It's like, okay,
I'm going to bed instead of doing that stuff. That
(19:49):
I normally would do in order to assist a client.
So really just taking it back to, yeah, there are
these barriers and it's tough, but I want to make
sure that when you do see me, if you do
see me, that you're having the best experience. I'm giving
you my best self too.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Such an important point, doctor A. I don't think I
ever had that conversation in grad school either, And I
think that it is only through conversations with y'all and
working with my own therapist that I do realize how
much wait, I feel to like you said, give people
this good experience and we don't want to become a
part of the barriers, and like all of these systemic
(20:21):
pieces that I think are really really important for us
to think about. And I also love that you shared
that because I think it also taps into one of
these things that I think is a misconception about therapist
that we are not thinking about our clients post session.
So this idea that like therapists are only paid friends
kind of thing until once you're gone, we're not thinking
about you. And I think what you're articulating is not
(20:44):
that we don't ever turn it off, but that we
are always I think in a lot of ways, thinking
about how to improve the system, how to do the
best things for our clients. How do you all keep
a balance there to not be thinking about that all
the time.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think it goes back to what it was saying
earlier too, like it does it penetrates all of your
little open mind space because we want to do good work.
We want to do work that is expansive. I think
it goes back for me the supervisions, the consultation and
having like our friend group, being able to say, okay, friend,
do you have time for that? Okay, friend, how is
that going to look or where are you going to
put that at?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Having somebody hold me.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Accountable for these big ideas or these big dreams or oh okay, yep,
and tell me where you're putting that with all of
your free time. Because we do think, we do care,
and there is so much like we see the difficulties, right,
we see the systemic problems, and we want to be
the answer. We want to be a part of the
solution and not the problem. But having someone say, Okay,
what's another idea where it's not all on us, It's
(21:40):
not all on me to fix it, right, or if
you do want to do something like a group, it's like, okay,
well you cannot be just you doing this group. Can
you split it with another therapist? You have the first one,
they have the second one. So thinking about how you
are able to still do the work but you don't
have to do all of their work yourself, and being
in spaces to explore other opportunities of still targeting the
problem without taking yourself out in the process.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, I think what's been really helpful for me to
strike that balance, which still I do practice boundaries around it,
is using other resources. So I think earlier in my
career it would be like, oh, the therapy space has
to be the space that creates all this change. But
now there's so many more podcasts, there's articles on stuff,
there's stuff on TV or in the media that's doing
a more kind of ethical job of showing care and
(22:24):
kind of showing mental health concerns. So I now will
balance out a bit more of those resources with the
hour that we have together. But I'm gonna send you
a podcast episode that talked exactly about what we talked about,
and you can do some learning on your own, right
so that I do not feel all of this pressure
to be the one space that gives you all of this.
So for me, it's been really helpful in terms of
taking in other resources and just having this breath of
(22:47):
resources just filtering through my brain. When I do think
about clients outside of session to be able to share
some things with them. What I usually need to practice
boundaries around is because I'm listening to so many podcasts
because I'm reading so many articles, I ain't gonna be
talking to you all time every time I read something,
so I just need to be like, Okay, I can
share this with them in the next session. I don't
have to share this with them in between. But offering
(23:09):
or kind of creating those adjuncts like a book is
also really helpful. So me also being able to lead
them to other resources I think also augments the work.
So I personally feel less pressure to be the space.
And I know that's about me and my ego stuff
as therapist, but it's been helpful to redirect them to
other resources.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And I think in terms of balancing doctor Joyce, so
that my brain is typically thinking about what can I
offer whatever I read that may be helpful.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh oh, this is really good.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It helped me to have this diverse friend group where
they will say, oh, this is what we're reading. And
so I don't want to be left at FOMA when
it comes to oh, my friends are reading about this
or they're talking about this show. So it forces me
where I really am reading this book or I'm looking
for podcasts that may be helpful for someone. It forces me,
like to turn that brain off and remember the other
part of me, this other side of me, that hey,
(23:57):
you actually have friends who go to their own therapists,
the don't need for therapy, they don't really want to
read about this anxious book or whatever they're talking about
another book. It holds me accountable and calls me to
the carpet, like you don't have anything to share, like
you haven't read any book this year, but books and
podcasts that are helpful, and so to do that and
to read books and listen to podcasts that are helpful
for my work that I do, and to make sure
(24:18):
I don't forget about this other part. So that's one
of the ways that I turn it off from always thinking.
Because people download from the cloud, I'm like, oh, this
would be really really good for them. Yeah, so I
try to make sure I balance it out with some
other stuff and having great friends who are just like
or they're sending recipes, they're doing other things to remind
you that there's this other part of you than this
person that's just like this caregiver.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
More from our conversation after the break. So something I
know that none of our grad programs really tapped into
because of when we were trained is the way that
our humanity and personhood has been extended because of social
(25:02):
media platforms. Right, So we are people, which means that
we are also engrossed in this social media landscape, and
so we are using platforms like Instagram, Twitter, TikTok all
the things as people, but also as mental health professionals.
So I'd love for you to share, like how you
manage joy using TikTok as like just joy versus doctor
(25:26):
joy on TikTok, Like how do you think through what
you share, what you like, what you repost, and your
thoughts about like the responsibility that we have as clinicians
in using mental health platforms.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So I think that's an excellent question, and that's one
of the areas that I struggled with early on. So
I have my ask doctor Joy platform, and it took
me a while to make. So you may see like, oh,
she's not super active on there because I feel a
sense of responsibility for whatever I put on there, because
there's so many pages out there with information about various topics,
and so I felt a heaviness of whatever you put
(26:02):
on there. It's almost like they're expecting this to be
like really good information. It's your ass start to Joy page,
it's your professional page. So being responsible there. But every
time I go on there, I don't want to like
be in my therapy hat. I want to sometimes look
at things that like TikTok, make me buy it or whatever,
And so for me, I set some boundaries around when
I'm on that page. I had to really turn it
off and turn it down because I'm on there and
(26:24):
all the algorithms for that are just, you know, everything
that moves my heart strings, like all the books, all
the therapy books, all the issues of the world, and
that page was very heavy for me. So I have
to basically decide and when am I going to opt
into that hat in that world because I already know
what's going to feed me, and then creating this other
page where this is more of my whatever else you're
(26:44):
interested in, whether it's recipes, and so really knowing just
remembering that I am human too, and I don't want
to always be in the therapy world and helping world,
and I have feelings and then this other side of me.
So trying to have boundaries around what I put on
the page, knowing that it is a weight and acknowledging
for me that I feel that what you put out there,
people are like, ooh, what does she have to say
about this? Or hey, this is Mental Health Awareness Month?
(27:06):
The pool of you have to make five or six posts, Well,
do you what feels authentic and what feels good to you?
Or if you just want to be on men and
see what your friends are doing, do you need to
get off of that page because those dms are popping
and go to another page. So I had to really
wrestle with what is social media going to look like
for you? And do you feel like you have to
be on all the platforms all the time given all
(27:26):
of the information, and the answer for me there was no.
I didn't have the capacity to do that and show
up the way I want to show up in my
friend circles and in my practice.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I am not as developed in this area as Star
to back with this. I ain't made it there yet.
I'm trying. I ain't made it there. And I've always
been in this tussle with social media. So Facebook came
about when I was in college. For me, it feels
like I did grow up with social media and sharing
and just beginning to post stuff. I was twenty years
old when I was posting stuff on social media, and
(27:57):
my Instagram page, my first one, like originally started as
my personal page, and then I started posting mental health
stuff and then transitioned it into my business page. So
it was always this mix of stuff anyway, it was
always this mix of personal people that were there. I mean,
I think I struck a fine balance because I'd always
say that anything I post, if a client or somebody
was to ask me about it, I'm fine with what
(28:19):
I post. I don't post anything that I would feel
embarrassed or if that feels too vulnerable for me. But
I did realize that, and this was even just in
the past few years, that my lens when I'm in
that business account, when I'm even looking at social media,
I'm looking at stuff to make my own to post
to like put it into my own words and post it.
(28:40):
So even when I believe I was using social media
for leisure, it was still content work for me. It
was like, oh, yeah, yeah, but I would have added this,
so let me turn that into a post next week,
like oh, I would say it like this. I'm like, oh,
that is something that came up. Let me put my
spin on it in this way. And that was the
burnout for me that it wasn't this space of leisure
(29:02):
or like mindless whatever it is that people scroll social
media for. It was always work for me because I'm
looking at other people's ideas and this new content thing
that came up. Were like, oh, there's this trend to
pay attention to, and there's this. So when I then
did a personal page a few years ago, that gave
me a bit of that break. But still I still
find myself doing stuff on my personal page that's related
(29:24):
to me being a therapist. I'm still interested in the
same things. It's just me using a different page. But
who I'm interacting what is different on both pages. But
I did recognize that because I'd gone into more content creation,
all the content I was seeing was still me thinking
about how I could do that and what that looks like.
You know, I like that idea. So I'm saving all
these things that other people were doing so I can
(29:46):
make some content. And what I ended up doing. I
think at some point, maybe a few years ago, I
was following thousands of people on my business page, and
a lot of them were therapists, and I just unfollowed
nearly everyone. So I unfollowed thousand of people a few
years ago, and I would say it was a lot
of therapists because it was just too much. It was
too much of me thinking and constantly working. And also
(30:08):
in the same thing of like, when you follow a
lot of therapists, you are constantly reevaluating yourself, and like,
this is something I could be doing, not even for
content stuff, but just me everything a therapist says, I'm
thinking about for my personal self. So me on following
a ton of therapists was really good for my mental health.
So I will sometimes recommend, like, don't follow too many
of us, because we just always have you thinking about
(30:29):
yourself and you need a break from that. I was
feeling like I was just a constant self improvement project
all the therapists I was following. So now I follow
significantly less. I still follow a lot, but I really
needed to step away from therapists of Instagram just to
preserve the time that I was spending on social media.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, I have definitely tried to trick my TikTok algorithm
into not knowing that I'm a therapist because I'm like,
I just wanted to see who did a coach Hall
of this Week or one of the fun Baby video.
It was like all of those kinds of random things.
So I try not to like engage very much in
the therapy world on TikTok because Instagram then quickly learns like, oh,
(31:08):
she wants to see more of this, right, And I
do think you bring up a good point of following
too many kind of personal developments, self help kinds of
pages then makes you always think there's something wrong that
you could be working on and doing things differently. Yeah,
So what suggestions would you all have for maybe like
newer mental health professionals or people who may be younger
(31:30):
in their career in terms of like how to ask
themselves some questions about like managing this and like keeping
the balance between not only for social media but also
just generally when you're thinking about preserving yourself as a
therapist versus your humanity and needing to strike a balance there.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think what worked best for me was for me
to be mindful of my energy, so like what gave
me energy and then what took away my energy? Just
really being aware of that. It's like going back to you,
doctor AA. It's like I'm on Instagram a whole lot.
You're looking at all of this. Are you leaving that
feeling like, Okay, I'm getting ready to go look at
puppy clothes, make something to eat, or am I now
trying to play with reels for another two hours? I'm
(32:08):
really wanting that space to give me energy or to
help me disconnect, But is it really occupying more space
and doing almost like more damage than is doing good
for me? And I'm using damage really lightly. But am
I coming off of that feeling rejuvenated, feeling refreshed and
feeling like I disconnected? Or did my to do list
get longer? Because now I'm about to go and learn
how to do reels or some type of dance or whatever. Right,
(32:30):
So I was aware of my energy and like what
fed me and then what kind of drained me? And
being okay with that it's like, okay, so you're going
to post more for example, like social media, like for
what because the world says you should because you feel
like it gets you more visibility, and then really understanding,
well you're actually visible, like people are finding you. So
really just exploring like what are you doing, why are
(32:52):
you doing it? And what works best for you and
trying not to be afraid of Hey, this works best
for me. And it may be a season like this
may be your season where you post a whole lot,
do you post a little bit right or you are
doing a lot of lives and being okay with being
in tune with myself. So I think that was my thing,
like what's my energy? Does that feel good to me?
Or am I doing it because people say we should
be doing this now or this is good? What is
(33:13):
it that you need and what's going to get you there? Right?
If I need to relax more, is this helping the
mission or going against it? Or if I need to
be more visible, what does that look like? So I'm
doing just enough to do that and not too much.
So it was a lot for me, a lot of
self exploration and same thing with what I'm reading and
how much I'm doing outside of therap Sometimes I'll put
together something I'm like, this feels so wonderful. I can't
(33:34):
wait for her to get it or him to get
it or listen to it, like this is exciting, and
doing more of those things that feed my soul and
make me feel as if I'm doing really good work
in the world, like I'm happy there or oh my gosh,
I feel heavier. So it's a lot of like, you know,
not vibes, but energy for me, not our alpha vibes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
One thing I recommend is having friends or people who
are not therapists. My goodness, the therapist bubble is real,
and at one point I only talking to therapists, and
I would be aghast when I would talk to somebody
who's not a therapist, Like people think like this, what
are you doing? Like what do you? What do you?
You can't say that, and like it really threw me.
(34:12):
And I was just like, oh, because I spend all
day talking to clients or I'm talking to other therapists.
Those are my closest people from graduate school, from internship,
from post doc. Because also a piece of like let
me talk to the people who get it, who get
what my life looks like now, but at the same time,
you get it a little bit too much, and I'm
a bit disconnected from how a lot of other people
think who don't either not necessarily have these skills but
(34:35):
just don't have to think and talk like this all
the time, or don't have to hold all these things
in the same way. So it's been really helpful for
me to stay connected to people who, you know, I
was friends with before graduate school, people who I might
have been able to make friends with while I was
in graduate school, people who have made friends with since,
who are able to help me tap into those other
parts of me when sometimes I might be having a
(34:57):
hard time. So staying connected with people who were not
in the field, I think could be really helpful. And
another thing that's been really helpful for me that I've
only done more recently, like reading like leisure books. For
a while, I was only reading books from other therapists,
self help kind of stuff, because I still wanted to
learn and do all these different things personally and professionally.
But this past few years, I've been reading murder mysteries,
(35:20):
I've been reading romance stuff. I've been reading all these
different kind of thrillers, and I'm just like, oh, this
is fun. I can get through this book in a
few weeks versus taking me three months to get through
right these other books that are so heady, that are
so like every three pages, I got to sit and
reflect and do all this stuff versus being able to
move through fiction books and fiction. I hadn't read fiction
(35:42):
since before grad school. Up until a few years ago,
it was just always taking in something that I could
learn from, something that I could apply to my clients,
something that could help me in my own therapy. I
was constantly thinking about self improvement, mine or others so being.
But to get into fiction for the purpose of fiction
(36:02):
and documentaries and stuff like that has been a really
helpful balance for me and also reminds me that there
are other things that exist outside of this field, or
other things that exist outside of working on yourself and
just being right. Like I said, thrillers, romance, stuff like
having different kind of feelings come up, imagination, creativity. I
had lost a lot of that because I was so
in the field, and that's been really helpful for me
(36:24):
to strike a balance having hobbies and not having a
hobby that you're trying to turn into a side hustle,
but like just a literal hobby, right that you do
because you do it and do it with other people
even has also been really helpful for me that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I'd recommend that goes with having that diverse friend group
because it happened to me where my friends were like
have you.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Read this book?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
And I was like, no, I haven't read it, and
they're all talking about it, and then the next one
you're like, okay, maybe that's just something that came up
with and they had dinner, and then the next one
is like, oh, have you read this book? And it's
like no, because guess what, it doesn't have to do
with trauma, mother depression or whatever, so have I read it?
But it holds you accounta before like what are you doing?
I think friends remind you that there's more to you
than like basically you are a therapist, right, and so
(37:08):
there's more to you than just being a therapist. It's like, okay,
so you're not running with us today? No, Like okay,
so you can only say no so many times and
they're just like okay, girl, what are you doing? And
being mindful like okay, you're not really watering all of
these other aspects of you. You have no idea about
the shows they're talking about, the books that they're reading,
and you haven't been to a lunch at dinner.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So just being in.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Tune with is this who I am? And does this
feed like all the parts of me.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I tell you? In twenty thirteen, I was going to
dr on a girl's trip and I took the book
A Man Search for meeting with me and my friends
were like, what are you? And that's not a romantic
that the books to take for me? What I saw
(37:54):
and sometimes that I've now been taking like fiction and
kind of leisure. I saw this as like, finally I
have some downtime to read this book. I'll be on
a i'll be at the pool, I'll be on a beach,
and I can actually get through this dense book. And
they were upset with me, like they were like, I
cannot believe that that is what you are choosing to
do on vacation. And for me, vacation wasn't be present
(38:16):
with vacation. Vacation was time to do all the stuff
I haven't been able to do that I can bring
with me on vacation. And that was an abrupt like girl,
What are you doing? What are you doing? They wouldn't
let me read the book. One of them gotten to
my bag one of the first nights and took I
was upset. I'm not saying that I went gracefully, but
(38:37):
they didn't allow me to read. And that actually ended
up being really really helpful for me, because it turned
into me using downtime as time to fill in time
that I felt that I lost or just didn't have
in my day to day. And that was the antithesis
of what I actually wanted to experience in terms of
vacation and what I also promote to clients, and that
was I will never forget that. That's what I tried do.
(39:00):
I really tried to do.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Thank goodness for that intervention.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
It's on a school, your whole vacation, anybody else.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I was really gonna go deep and have the sunshine
to really reflect. It will allow me just roumin space
to do, wasn't it. There wasn't that type of vacation.
That wasn't it, and it wasn't going to allow it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So I appreciate y'all more from our conversation after the break,
But I do think that that is something that therapists
struggle with like this idea of vacation being an actual
vacation and not like just an opportunity to catch up
(39:40):
on paperwork, or like, oh, I finally don't have to
like do all this so I can do all these
other things. It sounds like your support systems have been
very helpful in forcing that, But what kinds of other
things have been helpful in you changing your mindset around,
Like the necessity of vacations where you actually check out.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's an area that is still being worked on, because
it's exactly that where Okay, I'm off the grid for me,
vacation meant I'm not seeing clients, and so now I
can catch up with all of the notes, I can
read this book I've been wanting to read, and it's
not at leisure book. It's like, oh, this other book
about one of our favorite authors that just came out,
So it's all the stuff that I haven't been able
to do. It really took people saying you better not
(40:17):
touch your phone, or you know what, you're not actually
bringing your computer or you know, we're going somewhere like oh,
they don't have Wi Fi? First ever won have Wi Fi?
But it takes people on the vacation. I just really
don't want to be that person too where it's like, oh,
where's joy, Like she's going to do some work or
she's going to log into this meeting. So for me,
it was really all by force, and it was really
my support system. I'm still working on. Oh, you deserve
(40:39):
rest and rest is important. So I am telling myself
all of those things that I'm working on them and
trying to strengthen that muscle because I know it, and
I you know, I tell myself, like, you don't want
to burn out. This is what you actually preach and
if you need some time after your vacation to like
now do this work where you don't have clients, then
to do that. But it has really been by force.
It's been trips where is it really worth it for
(41:00):
you to pay that much your WiFi or everyone's out
you want to be the only one doing notes, like
with all these papers, like look at yourself. So it's
been forrest and some stern conversations.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I agree, like I said, I'm not fully there. I
am the person who has paid for Wi Fi on
the plane before, right in order to still kind of
get something done because again, I've got four hours where
I can't do anything else. Now's the time to do.
So what's been helpful for me is that I will
and I now have a stack of leisure books that
I do want to get to and they're not self help.
(41:31):
The only nonfiction ones will be like memoirs and stuff,
but no self help or kind of self development. I
will also download shows and episodes onto my computer for
when I'm traveling, so I have leisure stuff to watch
on the plane or when i'm there. Like those are
the things that help me to not go into the
work related stuff as much as I can. And like
I said, usually when I'm traveling, the people who I'm
(41:52):
traveling with are not colleagues and it's not a work trip,
so they are like, what are you doing you shouldn't
be doing, and I'll close your computer. I have not
gone to a point where I do not take my
work computer. I don't I'm not ready. I'm not ready.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I'll tell you what works there, doctor A. So I
almost had a panic attack, but two baby steps. So
on my last vacation, the agreement was to not take
my computer and to take my iPad. You can still
do a whole lot on the iPad. But guess what,
I don't know when the last time I used the iPad,
so it would take a lot of learning and trying
to like scroll and the little keyboard, so it made
(42:28):
it more difficult, Like you're really not about to do
a whole bunch of notes on your iPad because I
don't use it regularly. So it's like baby steps. So
I still feel that I can connect to the world
if I need to. I don't have as many apps
on there, so it's like baby steps, so you don't
totally go cold turkey.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
My tablet is my work computer essentially, but I need
like a Kindle.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
I need a kaboodle with the baby version look caboodle
like Stething where you know you got all you gotta
play is Tetris pac Man.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
You know You're about?
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Is what I would need.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
And again, because I have my I could do most
things anyway, but I would need that kind of device,
like not having a smartphone getting a flip phone again,
that would really need that that doesn't have all of
the different distractions because it's very easy for me to
go into an email, it's very easy for me to
also be working and you would name something. I think
it's therapists entrepreneurs. It's the entrepreneur part that gives me.
(43:20):
If I worked for probably like an agency, and turned
in all my stuff and I'm done at the end
of my day and I'm actually done, that's different. But
because I am running a business, it's relentless. There's always
something to do, so that I know that that makes
it harder for me. There's always something to look at
and review and a system to pay attention to, and
something to improve and something to edit on the back end.
(43:43):
So I think that also makes it a lot harder
if you are also running a business.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
One of the things that does work for me is
instead of giving myself all or nothing, I do well
with goals and like checkbox. It's like, okay, so you
can only do one hour of work today, you can
only do blah blah blah, so you can check your
email twice. And so I love being able to hold
myself accountable giving myself some It's like, well, you're actually
not going to be the most pleasant person if I
tell you to get off all email the entire day,
(44:09):
so you have twice you want to do it at
breakfast and lunch or you want to spread that thing
out for breakfast and dinner. So really figuring out how
can I take care of that little aspect of me
that is wondering how the business is going and making
sure that there are no major fires and being able
to be present too. So give me the kaboodle and
give me a little bit of permission.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Let me do that.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I can do that. Boodle starts with a see or okay,
because I'm listening, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
What I think that was something to join made up.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
That's not it's a kaboodle. It sounds like something that
kids play with, you know, like fancy names doodle.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
It's probably not real.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
But there is something that is like my first ibhead
kind of thing is where he's basically what would.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
You give keys a kid's kindle? Right that has all
these controls and all that kind of stuff. I can't
even go on YouTube basically, Yeah, yeah, to say that
I'm thirteen that I can't do nothing on so exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah, you know we can set it up like how
old are you? Thirteen? So therefore it's a lot you
maybe shut that off.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, like you can send time limits and all kinds
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
On those kind of things. That's what I do.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
So this conversation is a part of our larger celebration
of Minority Mental Health Awareness Month in July, and our
theme this year is holding space for Healers. And so
since you two our mid career past, the early part
of your career, I would love for you to wrap
us up by sharing something with maybe younger therapists or
newer people to the field about how you have persevered
(45:37):
and really prevented yourself from maybe experiencing burnout as a professional.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I would say not doing things alone. Ask the questions.
I did so many things the first five years, even
though I had supports, I had people who I could ask,
but I didn't ask questions right. I didn't ask questions
about tax stuff. I just was figuring stuff out. I
didn't ask questions about business structure stuff. I didn't ask
(46:03):
questions about how to set up paperwork and those kinds
of things. So asking questions often and early to help
yourself get set up. Because what I have found, and
I noticed this across a lot of other kind of
mid career clinicians, is that we are now figuring out
a lot of steps because now there's all these different resources,
particularly with social media, and I has all these different
resources to help you go into private practice. There's more coaches,
(46:24):
there's allline stuff, there's tax stuff for therapists. There's all
this stuff that wasn't there and when I was coming
into the field, that now helps you figure those things out.
But I think a lot of us in mid career
are now getting those things together in this way in
terms of structure, in terms of habits, in terms of patterns,
in terms of paperwork, all this kind of stuff. So
the earlier you can do those things and really focus
(46:46):
on those kind of foundational aspects of your business, you
get to kind of build and grow in a different
way with a different kind of foundation that I just
wished was there. But I also wish that I took
advantage of. I wasn't offering myself the vulnerability to ask
more questions of colleagues who are already in the field more.
I think I was just reacting to a lot of stuff.
(47:06):
I just got to figure out how to get clients,
and figure out how to keep getting clients and figure
out how to do this. I got to learn how
to accept money, like doing all these things and wasn't
really focused on the outside of the business. I was
so much in it. So I think utilizing those resources
as much as you can. So these Facebook groups, these consultation,
all those kinds of things that are available, use those
(47:27):
as early as you can, because they're really going to
help you solidify stuff so that you can actually tap
into creativity and like either other parts of your business,
but just the other parts of your life because these
things are taken care of. I love that.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
So I think definitely using your resources, being able to
ask for help. And I think I'd add two more
to that. I think not being afraid to pause and
pivot because I think when we're going and we're doing,
we're just going and we're doing, and it's just like, okay,
we're trying often to not let the bottom fall out
or what's the next thing that's on the to do list.
It's knowing that there's enough, we have enough, we have
enough time, there's enough support, there are enough client there
(48:00):
is enough to pause for just a second and to
see if what I'm doing does it serve me, does
it feel good? Am I enjoying the work that I'm doing,
or is there a better way for me? To do it,
or you know, I'm doing these three things, but these
two really feed my soul. So if I pause for
a second to self evaluate and be able to evaluate,
and then if I need to pivot, then I can pivot.
I think so not only like asking for help, asking
(48:22):
for support, pausing and pivoting, but I also think continuously learning,
just reminding myself I don't know all the things. I
don't have all the answers. Like you were saying, doctor A,
there's so many resources that are out there.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It's like if you.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
Don't know how to do that, then sometimes it comes
up in our console groups like oh, this is a
new platform people are using and being okay with Oh
I don't know that, or how are people doing that,
what's a new technique for doing that? Or how are
you doing onboarding or you know, new patients. So being
not afraid to just continuously learn you don't have the answers.
I'm always learning something new, and I'm not afraid to
pause and pivot and going back to doctor A like
(48:55):
ask for help. I think it helps us to not
be able to bring out I would.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Also add something that I'm seeing more in emerging therapists,
I think because of social media of all these different groups,
that there is this assumption and or pressure to have
this like six figure practice really really soon out of school,
and not saying it's it possible, y'all, don't come for me,
not saying it's not possible, and not saying don't be
motivated towards it. But I'm seeing a lot more therapists,
(49:22):
really really early therapist having a lot of pressure to
fill a practice immediately, to fill a practice, to have
perfectly niched down, to have two populations that they're really
really seeking to build their practice, and if it doesn't
happen in the first like six months or a year,
really being in a tail spin because they see all
this stuff online about established practices. And it's so subjective,
(49:46):
right that I have colleagues who have established practices that
are seeing thirty five people a week, and I have
colleagues whose full time is eleven people a week. There's
so much, I guessay, kind of just subjectivity to that,
but really being mindful of being able to nuance like
motivation versus pressure, because there is this story or this
sense that any of us with full practices did it
(50:08):
very quickly, and that we're just always getting clients all
the time, and that every screening converts to a client,
and every client converts to a long term client and everything. Right,
So I think there's some type of disservice that's happening
right in terms of feeding this beast around productivity and
growth and whatever six figures means to people now that
(50:29):
that should happen in this unique space in the private
practice space.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
But that's why that self awareness stuff comes into It's like,
do I really want to have thirty five people a week?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Right?
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Is that what it's going to take for me to
make the six figures? Like at what cost? Or do
I do this and do this very well? And so
I can still get to my six figures, but it
may take me a little more time and I'm not
burning out and I am watering this other part of
me with my other friends and so yeah, it's not
always doing, but taking some time to really be and
that's to be self aware.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
That such beautiful advice. Thank y'all so much for sharing that.
I think that that would be really helpful to younger
clinicians in the field. So I appreciate you sharing that.
So remind us all where we can stay connected with you.
What is your website? I know, doctor Joey, you talked
about not really being on social media, so any social
media handles you want to share are places where people
can connect with you.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Yeah, I'm definitely on there. Listen, it's not popping every
single day, but when it's.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
On there, it's on there.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
But I'm at ask doctor Joy that's a s K
D R j O Y on all platforms online.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
And what about you, doctor A.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
So my practice can be found at www dot ascension
behavioral health dot com. That's a s c N SiO
N behavioral health dot com. And I can be found
on Instagram at doctor Ayana A, which is doctor dr
underscore A y A n N A underscore A perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
We will be sure to include that in the show
notes so that people don't have to look too hard
to find either of you. Well, thank y'all so much
for joining me again. Always a pleasure, always, always a pleasure.
I'm so glad doctor Ayana and doctor Joror were able
to join me for this conversation. To learn more about
them and their work, be sure to visit the show
(52:13):
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session three
sixty eight, and don't forget to text two of your
girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit
our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
And if you want to continue digging into this topic
or just be in community with other sisters, come on
(52:35):
over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our
cozy corn of the Internet, designed just for black women.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
(52:55):
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
What what what what what
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty eight of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Why do friendship
breakups sometimes hurt more than romantic ones? How do I
make friends in a new city? Is it true that
women can't actually be good friends to one another? I'm
(01:20):
exploring all of these questions and so much more in
my book, Sisterhood Heels, now available in paperback at your
local independent bookstore or at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
a copy for you and your girls, and let's talk
about it. While therapists are often revered for our contributions
(01:43):
to the mental wellness of others. Our culture can also
be guilty of denying us humanity with assumptions that we're
always willing to provide therapeutic advice at the drop of
a dime, or that we don't feel things too. Today,
I've brought the group chat back together to discuss how
therapists are showing up in our everyday lives. First, we
(02:03):
have doctor Ayana Abrams, a licensed clinical psychologist who works
under her solo practice, Ascension Behavioral Health. She's the co
founder of Not So Strong, a mental health program curated
for black women to strengthen their sense of self and
connection to others through the use of vulnerable storytelling. We
also have doctor Joy beckw who is a psychologist, resident
(02:26):
radio expert, speaker, and college professor. Her passion for bridging
the gap between the mind body connection has allowed her
to work with executives, entertainers, professional athletes, and entrepreneurs nationwide.
Some of the points we discuss are the importance of
setting boundaries with friends and family when seeking therapeutic advice,
(02:47):
how to ensure we're not allowing our work to bleed
into our personal lives and the biggest misconceptions people tend
to have about therapists lives. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please sharing with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us
over in the sister circle to talk more about the episode.
(03:08):
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. Here's our conversation. Well, hello friends, thank you
so much for joining me again. We have reconvened, but
back in our little zoom boxes, not on stage this time.
Kind of said feels good to be good to be
always a pleasure, of course, of course, So today we
(03:31):
are talking about therapists as humans, so really the personhood
of therapists, because I think sometimes people engage with us
almost as empathy robots, as opposed to like hold people
with our own stuff going on, and I think people
are sometimes surprised that go therapists have feelings too. So
(03:52):
before we jump into the conversation, though, I don't know
that we have actually like fully introduced y'all to the
people in terms of how long you've been practicing like
you're areas of specialty. So doctor Joy, can you start
off and just let us know, like how long you've
been practicing in like what it is you actually do
as a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Absolutely, So I've been practicing since two thousand and fourteen. Well,
I've been private practice since twenty fourteen. I was at
a hospital before then. My specialty is trauma, but I
see a lot of individuals who have depression, anxiety. I
work with a lot of what I call like high
functioning individuals, so high functioning athletes, entertainers, CEOs, and especially entrepreneurs.
(04:32):
But trauma is my specialty. I am a team psychologist
for a local professional basketball league, so I do some
consult work there, and I'm the co founder off for
Atlanta and we specialize in trauma. Do a lot of
trauma work, anxiety work, depression work, so just all the
things for mental wellness, especially if you are out here
(04:56):
like life is life and so really really busy in
your respect to space and what about you, Dot Diana.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I have been in practice in Atlanta since twenty twelve,
solo practice. The name is Asension Behavioral Health, where I
specialize in mood disorders, depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, by polar disorder.
I work with a lot of graduate students, medical professionals
from medical school and physicians. I work with a lot
of entrepreneurs, and I also do an arm of my
(05:25):
practice does corporate consultings or corporate wellness navigating kind of
the DEI space and corporations more so towards racial equity
in the workplace. And you'll see me on podcasts and
all the such right talking about various things.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Beautiful, beautiful. So I'm curious for both of you, what
are some of the challenges that have come up for
you being a psychologist kind of like the tension between
being a mental health professional but also being like a
full human. What are some of the unexpected challenges that
have come up for you there?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
I think one of the things that I would say
terms of challenge, it's just I think goes back to
what you were saying earlier, doctor Joyl where people don't expect,
you know, you to have feelings or to be just
as impacted about something.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
As they are.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's like, well, no, like that hurts, and so I
feel the pain as well. And I think also whether
it's like having feelings, having empathy, like being impacted, but
also I think like having the answers, I think because
this is what we do. Like people do think like okay,
so what do you think or what's best here? And
it's like, well, no, no, no, there are so many
factors that influence decision, and so it's like I don't
(06:34):
have all the answers. I do have feelings and I
feel I get sad all the things as well, like
I'm impacted by the world just like you are. So
I think that's a challenge of like, girl, I don't
have the answer. I'm still processing too.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
What I would add to that is that I think
that people struggle a lot with me, and I think
therapists general like having boundaries, right, like not being available
for certain things, whether that be emotionally, whether that be advice.
I think it shows up in my practice right where
I just need to have this availability because someone's in
pain and needs to be seen when they want to
(07:08):
be seen or need to be seen. So I see
that a lot, and definitely in more personal relationships. I
do notice this dynamic online as well, though, that when
therapists show up and have problems with certain things or
feel annoyed by stuff, there's a sense that like you
shouldn't have quote unquote the negative feelings you're a therapist,
or you shouldn't struggle with things because you're a therapist.
(07:28):
And I literally have had people in my personal life say,
but you know how to get out of that, you
know how to not feel that. So I don't even
really understand how you could feel anxious about this or
how you could feel upset about this because you can
work yourself out of it. It feels really dehumanizing when
people do that, and they quite literally don't understand that
we cannot work on ourselves in that way. People get
(07:51):
very confused when I say I have a therapist. They're
just like you, all right, So then they also make
this further association as something must be really wrong if
I have a therapist, So how could I be a
therapist who has a therapist. So depending on the relationship,
people go further with that. But it's usually about this
lack of allowance to be vulnerable essential or to have
vulnerabilities that shows up a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
And Nade what would you say lead to some of
that confusion or a misinterpretation of who a therapist is,
that we wouldn't have our own therapists, or that we
have all the answers like what do you think contributes
to people thinking.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
That, well, we look at a personal relationships without going
too far depending on who was the person right, it
serves them right to not have to navigate my feelings.
It's beneficial for them for me to either have all
the answers or not need this or whatever it is.
So I think depending on the person and the relationship,
it can show up from that place. I think too,
(08:46):
it's people's lack of understanding of vulnerability and not seeing
therapists as humans. So they really just don't see that
we would also need and deserve the same kind of
help and care that other people have. So I'll use
you try to give the example of like, well, your
medical doctor has a physician. I've literally had somebody say
like they shouldn't need one. But for the most part,
(09:07):
when I say that, people understand it, like if your
medical doctor breaks a leg or does this, like they
still get to go to a doctor. Why would it
be any different for us? But it seems like, again,
because people see us in this very limited way in
the room, they view us as omniscient, they view us
as all knowing, then it really doesn't click that we
don't have the answers to things. So there's this kind
(09:29):
of strange way where I think people put therapists on
a pedestal as the people who can save a lot
of stuff. Well, at the same time, there's a lot
of people who don't trust therapists. So I think depending
on who you're coming across, you'll get either respond to
your vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's great points And doctor Joy, you mentioned this idea
that you have all the advice or people will come
to you and say like, well, what do you think?
How do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So we're talking about like outside of the therapy session,
So I have a lot of loose sayings. Sometimes people
are like what do you think. I'm like, no, no, I
don't think. So that you understand that this is a
different type of relationship and I may say something in
this context of this relationship that isn't necessarily what I
would say in a therapeutic relationship, right because those dynamics
are different. But also knowing when I'm not supposed to
(10:14):
have any advice or I'm not supposed to have the
answers in those.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Spaces and just being okay with it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I really don't know or I don't have any thoughts
about that, or saying like I think should talk to
your therapist. I think really clear boundaries about this is
my friends circle, if this is my family. I love
being able to turn off the work that I do
as much as you can when you can turning it
off there to say I don't have the answers or
I don't really know what do you think, and being
able to give it back to them, trying not to
get into this role just because they expect us to
(10:39):
have the answers does not mean I have to have
the answers, and knowing that I don't have to wear
that hat, because once you start having all the answers,
then of course they come back to you because you
typically have all.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Of the answers.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So I usually sometimes say I don't have like what
do you think? I don't think, or like okay, we're
going to ask out to joy about it and I'm like,
let's not, let's not so, but I make it in
a way where they understand I'm not being funny, but
sometimes I don't have the answers and having really healthy
about just knowing like uh uh no, you don't want me.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
In that, and it does feel like a tight line
to walk, because I mean in your friendship circles and
in your other relationships, people naturally like ask for advice,
and I think that that's human, but it does feel
like there is a different expectation because of what you do,
maybe as a mental health professional, that there is like
an added layer of like, okay, a professional opinion as
(11:26):
opposed to like just a girlfriend opinion.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Absolutely, and the weight they put on our answers or
even if you do have a thought like you know, oh, girl,
like whatever you want to say, it's like, no matter
what anyone else says, because you are a professional, because this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Is what you do.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
The weight that they put on your response. And sometimes
I say, like, you know, I don't know, but I
think you should probably talk, so I'll give just a
little bit of something like to guide because you do
have some thoughts, but no, like, I also don't want
that dynamic where I'm responsible for something or start to
wear that hat in my friend relationships, Like I just
want to be like joy in these relationships. And I
think I also have really good friends who they may
(12:00):
what do you think you think that's a problem, Like, girl,
you know, it's a problem but they're not really digging
deep and actually expecting to have therapeutic conversations because they know,
like we are friends for real in real life. But yeah,
the weight that they put on our responses because this
is what we do professionally is pretty significant.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Anything to answer that back day, No, I.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Agree with that, and I was gonna add the weight
that they put on that and this assumption that we
can't wait to help that I want to be able
to answer this question or give you advice because I
think I know the right answer. Like I will have
mostly like family members. If I say they're saying something
and I don't jump in, They're just like, are you
not going to say anything? What do you think about this?
And I'm like, I'm listen. I don't feel any different
(12:40):
than such and such does or such and such does,
But they kind of assume this like eagerness to help
that because we have the skills to help other people,
that we want to be using our skills all over
the place at breakfast, at brunch, at the family reunion,
that we just want to help when we see or
hear that they might be a problem, that that's where
we want to be spending our time a lot of
people don't see this as a profession of ours that
(13:03):
we're just supposed to be these bleeding hearts, which I
also didn't add before, like something that that surprises me.
It doesn't surprise me anymore. But that whole bleeding heart
piece is that when any conversations come up around fees
or rates, right, there's a different response that I get
when money is involved in stuff because people have this
association of well, that shouldn't be something that costs that much.
(13:25):
That should be something again that I should be able
to access because it's about health and because it's about
care for people. So you putting a barrier what they
see as a barrier to this means that we're doing
something that's awry in this field.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I think it goes back to what you're saying earlier,
doctor A, like they expect us to be all knowing
but not necessarily all experiencing, and it's like, well, no,
like I also experience those feelings. I also may have
some anxiety around the things that I want to be
able to do this year and being able to do
those things or carry those things out. So it's just
making sure that we add the human aspect to it
like no, like, I also have to make a living
(14:01):
as well, and my goal is to be able to
do both, to be able to give you great service,
to be able to be here and care for you,
but also to be able to afford margin.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You wouldn't work for free. Why would you expect us
to work for free? You literally would not work for
free and or a discounted in them like we are
expected to do.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So I'm curious because we know that so much of
the work that we do as therapists is mediated through
who we are as persons, right as people. How do
you balance or set boundaries around what kinds of clients
you are seeing or when a client's stuff kind of
activates your stuff, what kinds of things are in place,
or how do you think about that as a therapist
(14:42):
to kind of both protect yourself and the clients jumping.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Into my therapy sessions, Doctor Joey my business because I
have a right I had. We know I have a
soft spot and I had to have a very hard
time saying no to black women who want to be
clients in my practice, and I still have a hard
time with that now. I have boundary issues around that.
So I'm probably seeing too many clients right because of that,
(15:08):
So I think again kind of consultation supervision, right, that
the things that we've been trained right to make sure
that we are doing to support ourselves. But I know
that one of my softer spots or kind of vulnerabilities
is black women are black people in pain. And I
really need to remember the aspects of my burnout and
how it shows up and when I'm doing too much.
(15:29):
And I've had to really come into that practice and
attunement the last five or so years because I wasn't
screening right in a certain way in terms of like
who I was taking in my practice. I was just
so concerned about the systemic barriers and not wanting to
be one of those barriers and wanting to make sure
that people got good care, but also having to really
remind myself that I am human. There's but so many
(15:51):
hours in a day that it is safe for me
and for clients in terms of how many people I'm
seeing and how much time I'm spending with clients that
I can do but so much paperwork and still be
on top of my business kind of acumen in my
practice as well as serving clients well and having to
really grieve that I can't do more, that I can't
see as many clients as I want to do. And
that's been this ongoing practice for me, the grieving, the
(16:14):
boundary work, the acceptance of my humanity, I mean, just
what that means in terms of my limits. So maybe
finding some other ways to have larger impact because I
can't take you all in my kind of one to
one or one to two practice.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
In terms of couples, Yeah, that makes sense. I think
I did some of the exact same things, doctor A.
Just the heaviness that I feel when I feel like, ooh,
this person would really be a good fit, or I
feel that I could really help this person, but also
knowing that I don't have the capacity and being able
to sit with that. I think for me, I had
to navigate or had to explore what's the story that
(16:47):
I'm telling, Like what's driving this need for me to
want to see as many people as possible and the
effect of that like Okay, so now you're sad and
now you're feeling down. Are you afraid? What are you
afraid of? And also the narrative that like, hey, there
are some other excellent people that can provide this service
or it does not have to be mean, Like as
much as I would love for it to be me,
but it's like, if not me, I have a great
(17:08):
nice circle of capable therapists, Like let me send you
to this person. I know you'd be in really good hands.
But I think it starts off with screening really, really
well as much as possible, so you'll know, like, hey,
who do I work well with, and trying to be
able to find that ideal client that you feel that's
a really good match early on, and then definitely the consultation,
the supervision, the groups have been very very helpful, and
(17:32):
then knowing that it does not have to be me.
It does not have to be me. I can also
refer them out to somebody, but it is really tough.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Because it's like, well, you know, well.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I could put them in on Friday at twelve and
it's like, okay, so what are you gonna have lunch?
But being able to sit in that space like no,
you can't. You said you were going to do notes
during that time, but really thinking about by you doing that,
what are you giving up? So you're adding this person
and what are you taking away from yourself, whether it's
my time that I set aside to do notes or
to basically just have lunch.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
You know, something that I wish we had more training
on in our or at least I know my graduate
program didn't do the best at this. I think that
a lot of therapists, emerging therapists, and even therapists I
guess I'm considered mid career now, really struggled with internalizing
the brokenness of the mental health care system, so really
internalizing this responsibility that, oh, I know that there are
(18:22):
barriers so let me not perpetuate the barriers in this.
We know the barriers and the stigma associated with black people.
So oh my goodness, if a black person has done
all the work to do this courageous thing and ask
for therapy, I can't turn them away now because I've
internalized that they not ever going to try again. Right, So,
it was all that stuff that was really really taking
over that I still have to keep an eye on,
(18:43):
but I've put some distance in between it being my
responsibility to like save the mental health care system, right
that none of us can do that as one therapist
or even like a group practice. But I don't think
that that is offered to us I don't think we
are taught about the importance of that kind of differentiation,
but I know that for a long time, I really
took it in as my responsibility to not be the
(19:04):
broken system.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah, and then doctor A also thinking about too though,
if we do feel to capacity or if we are
taking on all of that, what is it due to us?
We talked about burnout earlier and just making sure that
we don't show up like you know, Okay, finally we
schedule them, we have them in for a session, but
are you getting the best me? Because we know what
we're like when we're seeing we know what our sweet
spot is, we know what it's like when we're really
(19:27):
full of energy and ready to see the clients that
we see, and knowing that if we're over that limit,
am I doing them a disservice? Like we talk about
doing no harm. It's like, okay, so what point am
I exhausted? What point am I tired? And the things
where you know, I love reading and just finding articles
and things for clients sometimes outside of session, and it's like, well,
if you're so packed, then you're tired. It's like, okay,
I'm going to bed instead of doing that stuff. That
(19:49):
I normally would do in order to assist a client.
So really just taking it back to, yeah, there are
these barriers and it's tough, but I want to make
sure that when you do see me, if you do
see me, that you're having the best experience. I'm giving
you my best self too.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Such an important point, doctor A. I don't think I
ever had that conversation in grad school either, And I
think that it is only through conversations with y'all and
working with my own therapist that I do realize how
much wait, I feel to like you said, give people
this good experience and we don't want to become a
part of the barriers, and like all of these systemic
(20:21):
pieces that I think are really really important for us
to think about. And I also love that you shared
that because I think it also taps into one of
these things that I think is a misconception about therapist
that we are not thinking about our clients post session.
So this idea that like therapists are only paid friends
kind of thing until once you're gone, we're not thinking
about you. And I think what you're articulating is not
(20:44):
that we don't ever turn it off, but that we
are always I think in a lot of ways, thinking
about how to improve the system, how to do the
best things for our clients. How do you all keep
a balance there to not be thinking about that all
the time.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I think it goes back to what it was saying
earlier too, like it does it penetrates all of your
little open mind space because we want to do good work.
We want to do work that is expansive. I think
it goes back for me the supervisions, the consultation and
having like our friend group, being able to say, okay, friend,
do you have time for that? Okay, friend, how is
that going to look or where are you going to
put that at?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Having somebody hold me.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Accountable for these big ideas or these big dreams or oh okay, yep,
and tell me where you're putting that with all of
your free time. Because we do think, we do care,
and there is so much like we see the difficulties, right,
we see the systemic problems, and we want to be
the answer. We want to be a part of the
solution and not the problem. But having someone say, Okay,
what's another idea where it's not all on us, It's
(21:40):
not all on me to fix it, right, or if
you do want to do something like a group, it's like, okay,
well you cannot be just you doing this group. Can
you split it with another therapist? You have the first one,
they have the second one. So thinking about how you
are able to still do the work but you don't
have to do all of their work yourself, and being
in spaces to explore other opportunities of still targeting the
problem without taking yourself out in the process.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, I think what's been really helpful for me to
strike that balance, which still I do practice boundaries around it,
is using other resources. So I think earlier in my
career it would be like, oh, the therapy space has
to be the space that creates all this change. But
now there's so many more podcasts, there's articles on stuff,
there's stuff on TV or in the media that's doing
a more kind of ethical job of showing care and
(22:24):
kind of showing mental health concerns. So I now will
balance out a bit more of those resources with the
hour that we have together. But I'm gonna send you
a podcast episode that talked exactly about what we talked about,
and you can do some learning on your own, right
so that I do not feel all of this pressure
to be the one space that gives you all of this.
So for me, it's been really helpful in terms of
taking in other resources and just having this breath of
(22:47):
resources just filtering through my brain. When I do think
about clients outside of session to be able to share
some things with them. What I usually need to practice
boundaries around is because I'm listening to so many podcasts
because I'm reading so many articles, I ain't gonna be
talking to you all time every time I read something,
so I just need to be like, Okay, I can
share this with them in the next session. I don't
have to share this with them in between. But offering
(23:09):
or kind of creating those adjuncts like a book is
also really helpful. So me also being able to lead
them to other resources I think also augments the work.
So I personally feel less pressure to be the space.
And I know that's about me and my ego stuff
as therapist, but it's been helpful to redirect them to
other resources.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And I think in terms of balancing doctor Joyce, so
that my brain is typically thinking about what can I
offer whatever I read that may be helpful.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Oh oh, this is really good.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
It helped me to have this diverse friend group where
they will say, oh, this is what we're reading. And
so I don't want to be left at FOMA when
it comes to oh, my friends are reading about this
or they're talking about this show. So it forces me
where I really am reading this book or I'm looking
for podcasts that may be helpful for someone. It forces me,
like to turn that brain off and remember the other
part of me, this other side of me, that hey,
(23:57):
you actually have friends who go to their own therapists,
the don't need for therapy, they don't really want to
read about this anxious book or whatever they're talking about
another book. It holds me accountable and calls me to
the carpet, like you don't have anything to share, like
you haven't read any book this year, but books and
podcasts that are helpful, and so to do that and
to read books and listen to podcasts that are helpful
for my work that I do, and to make sure
(24:18):
I don't forget about this other part. So that's one
of the ways that I turn it off from always thinking.
Because people download from the cloud, I'm like, oh, this
would be really really good for them. Yeah, so I
try to make sure I balance it out with some
other stuff and having great friends who are just like
or they're sending recipes, they're doing other things to remind
you that there's this other part of you than this
person that's just like this caregiver.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
More from our conversation after the break. So something I
know that none of our grad programs really tapped into
because of when we were trained is the way that
our humanity and personhood has been extended because of social
(25:02):
media platforms. Right, So we are people, which means that
we are also engrossed in this social media landscape, and
so we are using platforms like Instagram, Twitter, TikTok all
the things as people, but also as mental health professionals.
So I'd love for you to share, like how you
manage joy using TikTok as like just joy versus doctor
(25:26):
joy on TikTok, Like how do you think through what
you share, what you like, what you repost, and your
thoughts about like the responsibility that we have as clinicians
in using mental health platforms.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
So I think that's an excellent question, and that's one
of the areas that I struggled with early on. So
I have my ask doctor Joy platform, and it took
me a while to make. So you may see like, oh,
she's not super active on there because I feel a
sense of responsibility for whatever I put on there, because
there's so many pages out there with information about various topics,
and so I felt a heaviness of whatever you put
(26:02):
on there. It's almost like they're expecting this to be
like really good information. It's your ass start to Joy page,
it's your professional page. So being responsible there. But every
time I go on there, I don't want to like
be in my therapy hat. I want to sometimes look
at things that like TikTok, make me buy it or whatever,
And so for me, I set some boundaries around when
I'm on that page. I had to really turn it
off and turn it down because I'm on there and
(26:24):
all the algorithms for that are just, you know, everything
that moves my heart strings, like all the books, all
the therapy books, all the issues of the world, and
that page was very heavy for me. So I have
to basically decide and when am I going to opt
into that hat in that world because I already know
what's going to feed me, and then creating this other
page where this is more of my whatever else you're
(26:44):
interested in, whether it's recipes, and so really knowing just
remembering that I am human too, and I don't want
to always be in the therapy world and helping world,
and I have feelings and then this other side of me.
So trying to have boundaries around what I put on
the page, knowing that it is a weight and acknowledging
for me that I feel that what you put out there,
people are like, ooh, what does she have to say
about this? Or hey, this is Mental Health Awareness Month?
(27:06):
The pool of you have to make five or six posts, Well,
do you what feels authentic and what feels good to you?
Or if you just want to be on men and
see what your friends are doing, do you need to
get off of that page because those dms are popping
and go to another page. So I had to really
wrestle with what is social media going to look like
for you? And do you feel like you have to
be on all the platforms all the time given all
(27:26):
of the information, and the answer for me there was no.
I didn't have the capacity to do that and show
up the way I want to show up in my
friend circles and in my practice.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I am not as developed in this area as Star
to back with this. I ain't made it there yet.
I'm trying. I ain't made it there. And I've always
been in this tussle with social media. So Facebook came
about when I was in college. For me, it feels
like I did grow up with social media and sharing
and just beginning to post stuff. I was twenty years
old when I was posting stuff on social media, and
(27:57):
my Instagram page, my first one, like originally started as
my personal page, and then I started posting mental health
stuff and then transitioned it into my business page. So
it was always this mix of stuff anyway, it was
always this mix of personal people that were there. I mean,
I think I struck a fine balance because I'd always
say that anything I post, if a client or somebody
was to ask me about it, I'm fine with what
(28:19):
I post. I don't post anything that I would feel
embarrassed or if that feels too vulnerable for me. But
I did realize that, and this was even just in
the past few years, that my lens when I'm in
that business account, when I'm even looking at social media,
I'm looking at stuff to make my own to post
to like put it into my own words and post it.
(28:40):
So even when I believe I was using social media
for leisure, it was still content work for me. It
was like, oh, yeah, yeah, but I would have added this,
so let me turn that into a post next week,
like oh, I would say it like this. I'm like, oh,
that is something that came up. Let me put my
spin on it in this way. And that was the
burnout for me that it wasn't this space of leisure
(29:02):
or like mindless whatever it is that people scroll social
media for. It was always work for me because I'm
looking at other people's ideas and this new content thing
that came up. Were like, oh, there's this trend to
pay attention to, and there's this. So when I then
did a personal page a few years ago, that gave
me a bit of that break. But still I still
find myself doing stuff on my personal page that's related
(29:24):
to me being a therapist. I'm still interested in the
same things. It's just me using a different page. But
who I'm interacting what is different on both pages. But
I did recognize that because I'd gone into more content creation,
all the content I was seeing was still me thinking
about how I could do that and what that looks like.
You know, I like that idea. So I'm saving all
these things that other people were doing so I can
(29:46):
make some content. And what I ended up doing. I
think at some point, maybe a few years ago, I
was following thousands of people on my business page, and
a lot of them were therapists, and I just unfollowed
nearly everyone. So I unfollowed thousand of people a few
years ago, and I would say it was a lot
of therapists because it was just too much. It was
too much of me thinking and constantly working. And also
(30:08):
in the same thing of like, when you follow a
lot of therapists, you are constantly reevaluating yourself, and like,
this is something I could be doing, not even for
content stuff, but just me everything a therapist says, I'm
thinking about for my personal self. So me on following
a ton of therapists was really good for my mental health.
So I will sometimes recommend, like, don't follow too many
of us, because we just always have you thinking about
(30:29):
yourself and you need a break from that. I was
feeling like I was just a constant self improvement project
all the therapists I was following. So now I follow
significantly less. I still follow a lot, but I really
needed to step away from therapists of Instagram just to
preserve the time that I was spending on social media.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, I have definitely tried to trick my TikTok algorithm
into not knowing that I'm a therapist because I'm like,
I just wanted to see who did a coach Hall
of this Week or one of the fun Baby video.
It was like all of those kinds of random things.
So I try not to like engage very much in
the therapy world on TikTok because Instagram then quickly learns like, oh,
(31:08):
she wants to see more of this, right, And I
do think you bring up a good point of following
too many kind of personal developments, self help kinds of
pages then makes you always think there's something wrong that
you could be working on and doing things differently. Yeah,
So what suggestions would you all have for maybe like
newer mental health professionals or people who may be younger
(31:30):
in their career in terms of like how to ask
themselves some questions about like managing this and like keeping
the balance between not only for social media but also
just generally when you're thinking about preserving yourself as a
therapist versus your humanity and needing to strike a balance there.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think what worked best for me was for me
to be mindful of my energy, so like what gave
me energy and then what took away my energy? Just
really being aware of that. It's like going back to you,
doctor AA. It's like I'm on Instagram a whole lot.
You're looking at all of this. Are you leaving that
feeling like, Okay, I'm getting ready to go look at
puppy clothes, make something to eat, or am I now
trying to play with reels for another two hours? I'm
(32:08):
really wanting that space to give me energy or to
help me disconnect, But is it really occupying more space
and doing almost like more damage than is doing good
for me? And I'm using damage really lightly. But am
I coming off of that feeling rejuvenated, feeling refreshed and
feeling like I disconnected? Or did my to do list
get longer? Because now I'm about to go and learn
how to do reels or some type of dance or whatever. Right,
(32:30):
So I was aware of my energy and like what
fed me and then what kind of drained me? And
being okay with that it's like, okay, so you're going
to post more for example, like social media, like for
what because the world says you should because you feel
like it gets you more visibility, and then really understanding,
well you're actually visible, like people are finding you. So
really just exploring like what are you doing, why are
(32:52):
you doing it? And what works best for you and
trying not to be afraid of Hey, this works best
for me. And it may be a season like this
may be your season where you post a whole lot,
do you post a little bit right or you are
doing a lot of lives and being okay with being
in tune with myself. So I think that was my thing,
like what's my energy? Does that feel good to me?
Or am I doing it because people say we should
be doing this now or this is good? What is
(33:13):
it that you need and what's going to get you there? Right?
If I need to relax more, is this helping the
mission or going against it? Or if I need to
be more visible, what does that look like? So I'm
doing just enough to do that and not too much.
So it was a lot for me, a lot of
self exploration and same thing with what I'm reading and
how much I'm doing outside of therap Sometimes I'll put
together something I'm like, this feels so wonderful. I can't
(33:34):
wait for her to get it or him to get
it or listen to it, like this is exciting, and
doing more of those things that feed my soul and
make me feel as if I'm doing really good work
in the world, like I'm happy there or oh my gosh,
I feel heavier. So it's a lot of like, you know,
not vibes, but energy for me, not our alpha vibes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
One thing I recommend is having friends or people who
are not therapists. My goodness, the therapist bubble is real,
and at one point I only talking to therapists, and
I would be aghast when I would talk to somebody
who's not a therapist, Like people think like this, what
are you doing? Like what do you? What do you?
You can't say that, and like it really threw me.
(34:12):
And I was just like, oh, because I spend all
day talking to clients or I'm talking to other therapists.
Those are my closest people from graduate school, from internship,
from post doc. Because also a piece of like let
me talk to the people who get it, who get
what my life looks like now, but at the same time,
you get it a little bit too much, and I'm
a bit disconnected from how a lot of other people
think who don't either not necessarily have these skills but
(34:35):
just don't have to think and talk like this all
the time, or don't have to hold all these things
in the same way. So it's been really helpful for
me to stay connected to people who, you know, I
was friends with before graduate school, people who I might
have been able to make friends with while I was
in graduate school, people who have made friends with since,
who are able to help me tap into those other
parts of me when sometimes I might be having a
(34:57):
hard time. So staying connected with people who were not
in the field, I think could be really helpful. And
another thing that's been really helpful for me that I've
only done more recently, like reading like leisure books. For
a while, I was only reading books from other therapists,
self help kind of stuff, because I still wanted to
learn and do all these different things personally and professionally.
But this past few years, I've been reading murder mysteries,
(35:20):
I've been reading romance stuff. I've been reading all these
different kind of thrillers, and I'm just like, oh, this
is fun. I can get through this book in a
few weeks versus taking me three months to get through
right these other books that are so heady, that are
so like every three pages, I got to sit and
reflect and do all this stuff versus being able to
move through fiction books and fiction. I hadn't read fiction
(35:42):
since before grad school. Up until a few years ago,
it was just always taking in something that I could
learn from, something that I could apply to my clients,
something that could help me in my own therapy. I
was constantly thinking about self improvement, mine or others so being.
But to get into fiction for the purpose of fiction
(36:02):
and documentaries and stuff like that has been a really
helpful balance for me and also reminds me that there
are other things that exist outside of this field, or
other things that exist outside of working on yourself and
just being right. Like I said, thrillers, romance, stuff like
having different kind of feelings come up, imagination, creativity. I
had lost a lot of that because I was so
in the field, and that's been really helpful for me
(36:24):
to strike a balance having hobbies and not having a
hobby that you're trying to turn into a side hustle,
but like just a literal hobby, right that you do
because you do it and do it with other people
even has also been really helpful for me that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I'd recommend that goes with having that diverse friend group
because it happened to me where my friends were like
have you.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Read this book?
Speaker 3 (36:46):
And I was like, no, I haven't read it, and
they're all talking about it, and then the next one
you're like, okay, maybe that's just something that came up
with and they had dinner, and then the next one
is like, oh, have you read this book? And it's
like no, because guess what, it doesn't have to do
with trauma, mother depression or whatever, so have I read it?
But it holds you accounta before like what are you doing?
I think friends remind you that there's more to you
than like basically you are a therapist, right, and so
(37:08):
there's more to you than just being a therapist. It's like, okay,
so you're not running with us today? No, Like okay,
so you can only say no so many times and
they're just like okay, girl, what are you doing? And
being mindful like okay, you're not really watering all of
these other aspects of you. You have no idea about
the shows they're talking about, the books that they're reading,
and you haven't been to a lunch at dinner.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So just being in.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Tune with is this who I am? And does this
feed like all the parts of me.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I tell you? In twenty thirteen, I was going to
dr on a girl's trip and I took the book
A Man Search for meeting with me and my friends
were like, what are you? And that's not a romantic
that the books to take for me? What I saw
(37:54):
and sometimes that I've now been taking like fiction and
kind of leisure. I saw this as like, finally I
have some downtime to read this book. I'll be on
a i'll be at the pool, I'll be on a beach,
and I can actually get through this dense book. And
they were upset with me, like they were like, I
cannot believe that that is what you are choosing to
do on vacation. And for me, vacation wasn't be present
(38:16):
with vacation. Vacation was time to do all the stuff
I haven't been able to do that I can bring
with me on vacation. And that was an abrupt like girl,
What are you doing? What are you doing? They wouldn't
let me read the book. One of them gotten to
my bag one of the first nights and took I
was upset. I'm not saying that I went gracefully, but
(38:37):
they didn't allow me to read. And that actually ended
up being really really helpful for me, because it turned
into me using downtime as time to fill in time
that I felt that I lost or just didn't have
in my day to day. And that was the antithesis
of what I actually wanted to experience in terms of
vacation and what I also promote to clients, and that
was I will never forget that. That's what I tried do.
(39:00):
I really tried to do.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Thank goodness for that intervention.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
It's on a school, your whole vacation, anybody else.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I was really gonna go deep and have the sunshine
to really reflect. It will allow me just roumin space
to do, wasn't it. There wasn't that type of vacation.
That wasn't it, and it wasn't going to allow it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So I appreciate y'all more from our conversation after the break,
But I do think that that is something that therapists
struggle with like this idea of vacation being an actual
vacation and not like just an opportunity to catch up
(39:40):
on paperwork, or like, oh, I finally don't have to
like do all this so I can do all these
other things. It sounds like your support systems have been
very helpful in forcing that, But what kinds of other
things have been helpful in you changing your mindset around,
Like the necessity of vacations where you actually check out.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's an area that is still being worked on, because
it's exactly that where Okay, I'm off the grid for me,
vacation meant I'm not seeing clients, and so now I
can catch up with all of the notes, I can
read this book I've been wanting to read, and it's
not at leisure book. It's like, oh, this other book
about one of our favorite authors that just came out,
So it's all the stuff that I haven't been able
to do. It really took people saying you better not
(40:17):
touch your phone, or you know what, you're not actually
bringing your computer or you know, we're going somewhere like oh,
they don't have Wi Fi? First ever won have Wi Fi?
But it takes people on the vacation. I just really
don't want to be that person too where it's like, oh,
where's joy, Like she's going to do some work or
she's going to log into this meeting. So for me,
it was really all by force, and it was really
my support system. I'm still working on. Oh, you deserve
(40:39):
rest and rest is important. So I am telling myself
all of those things that I'm working on them and
trying to strengthen that muscle because I know it, and
I you know, I tell myself, like, you don't want
to burn out. This is what you actually preach and
if you need some time after your vacation to like
now do this work where you don't have clients, then
to do that. But it has really been by force.
It's been trips where is it really worth it for
(41:00):
you to pay that much your WiFi or everyone's out
you want to be the only one doing notes, like
with all these papers, like look at yourself. So it's
been forrest and some stern conversations.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I agree, like I said, I'm not fully there. I
am the person who has paid for Wi Fi on
the plane before, right in order to still kind of
get something done because again, I've got four hours where
I can't do anything else. Now's the time to do.
So what's been helpful for me is that I will
and I now have a stack of leisure books that
I do want to get to and they're not self help.
(41:31):
The only nonfiction ones will be like memoirs and stuff,
but no self help or kind of self development. I
will also download shows and episodes onto my computer for
when I'm traveling, so I have leisure stuff to watch
on the plane or when i'm there. Like those are
the things that help me to not go into the
work related stuff as much as I can. And like
I said, usually when I'm traveling, the people who I'm
(41:52):
traveling with are not colleagues and it's not a work trip,
so they are like, what are you doing you shouldn't
be doing, and I'll close your computer. I have not
gone to a point where I do not take my
work computer. I don't I'm not ready. I'm not ready.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I'll tell you what works there, doctor A. So I
almost had a panic attack, but two baby steps. So
on my last vacation, the agreement was to not take
my computer and to take my iPad. You can still
do a whole lot on the iPad. But guess what,
I don't know when the last time I used the iPad,
so it would take a lot of learning and trying
to like scroll and the little keyboard, so it made
(42:28):
it more difficult, Like you're really not about to do
a whole bunch of notes on your iPad because I
don't use it regularly. So it's like baby steps. So
I still feel that I can connect to the world
if I need to. I don't have as many apps
on there, so it's like baby steps, so you don't
totally go cold turkey.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
My tablet is my work computer essentially, but I need
like a Kindle.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
I need a kaboodle with the baby version look caboodle
like Stething where you know you got all you gotta
play is Tetris pac Man.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
You know You're about?
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Is what I would need.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
And again, because I have my I could do most
things anyway, but I would need that kind of device,
like not having a smartphone getting a flip phone again,
that would really need that that doesn't have all of
the different distractions because it's very easy for me to
go into an email, it's very easy for me to
also be working and you would name something. I think
it's therapists entrepreneurs. It's the entrepreneur part that gives me.
(43:20):
If I worked for probably like an agency, and turned
in all my stuff and I'm done at the end
of my day and I'm actually done, that's different. But
because I am running a business, it's relentless. There's always
something to do, so that I know that that makes
it harder for me. There's always something to look at
and review and a system to pay attention to, and
something to improve and something to edit on the back end.
(43:43):
So I think that also makes it a lot harder
if you are also running a business.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
One of the things that does work for me is
instead of giving myself all or nothing, I do well
with goals and like checkbox. It's like, okay, so you
can only do one hour of work today, you can
only do blah blah blah, so you can check your
email twice. And so I love being able to hold
myself accountable giving myself some It's like, well, you're actually
not going to be the most pleasant person if I
tell you to get off all email the entire day,
(44:09):
so you have twice you want to do it at
breakfast and lunch or you want to spread that thing
out for breakfast and dinner. So really figuring out how
can I take care of that little aspect of me
that is wondering how the business is going and making
sure that there are no major fires and being able
to be present too. So give me the kaboodle and
give me a little bit of permission.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Let me do that.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
I can do that. Boodle starts with a see or okay,
because I'm listening, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
What I think that was something to join made up.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
That's not it's a kaboodle. It sounds like something that
kids play with, you know, like fancy names doodle.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
It's probably not real.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
But there is something that is like my first ibhead
kind of thing is where he's basically what would.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
You give keys a kid's kindle? Right that has all
these controls and all that kind of stuff. I can't
even go on YouTube basically, Yeah, yeah, to say that
I'm thirteen that I can't do nothing on so exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah, you know we can set it up like how
old are you? Thirteen? So therefore it's a lot you
maybe shut that off.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, like you can send time limits and all kinds
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
On those kind of things. That's what I do.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
So this conversation is a part of our larger celebration
of Minority Mental Health Awareness Month in July, and our
theme this year is holding space for Healers. And so
since you two our mid career past, the early part
of your career, I would love for you to wrap
us up by sharing something with maybe younger therapists or
newer people to the field about how you have persevered
(45:37):
and really prevented yourself from maybe experiencing burnout as a professional.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I would say not doing things alone. Ask the questions.
I did so many things the first five years, even
though I had supports, I had people who I could ask,
but I didn't ask questions right. I didn't ask questions
about tax stuff. I just was figuring stuff out. I
didn't ask questions about business structure stuff. I didn't ask
(46:03):
questions about how to set up paperwork and those kinds
of things. So asking questions often and early to help
yourself get set up. Because what I have found, and
I noticed this across a lot of other kind of
mid career clinicians, is that we are now figuring out
a lot of steps because now there's all these different resources,
particularly with social media, and I has all these different
resources to help you go into private practice. There's more coaches,
(46:24):
there's allline stuff, there's tax stuff for therapists. There's all
this stuff that wasn't there and when I was coming
into the field, that now helps you figure those things out.
But I think a lot of us in mid career
are now getting those things together in this way in
terms of structure, in terms of habits, in terms of patterns,
in terms of paperwork, all this kind of stuff. So
the earlier you can do those things and really focus
(46:46):
on those kind of foundational aspects of your business, you
get to kind of build and grow in a different
way with a different kind of foundation that I just
wished was there. But I also wish that I took
advantage of. I wasn't offering myself the vulnerability to ask
more questions of colleagues who are already in the field more.
I think I was just reacting to a lot of stuff.
(47:06):
I just got to figure out how to get clients,
and figure out how to keep getting clients and figure
out how to do this. I got to learn how
to accept money, like doing all these things and wasn't
really focused on the outside of the business. I was
so much in it. So I think utilizing those resources
as much as you can. So these Facebook groups, these consultation,
all those kinds of things that are available, use those
(47:27):
as early as you can, because they're really going to
help you solidify stuff so that you can actually tap
into creativity and like either other parts of your business,
but just the other parts of your life because these
things are taken care of. I love that.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
So I think definitely using your resources, being able to
ask for help. And I think I'd add two more
to that. I think not being afraid to pause and
pivot because I think when we're going and we're doing,
we're just going and we're doing, and it's just like, okay,
we're trying often to not let the bottom fall out
or what's the next thing that's on the to do list.
It's knowing that there's enough, we have enough, we have
enough time, there's enough support, there are enough client there
(48:00):
is enough to pause for just a second and to
see if what I'm doing does it serve me, does
it feel good? Am I enjoying the work that I'm doing,
or is there a better way for me? To do it,
or you know, I'm doing these three things, but these
two really feed my soul. So if I pause for
a second to self evaluate and be able to evaluate,
and then if I need to pivot, then I can pivot.
I think so not only like asking for help, asking
(48:22):
for support, pausing and pivoting, but I also think continuously learning,
just reminding myself I don't know all the things. I
don't have all the answers. Like you were saying, doctor A,
there's so many resources that are out there.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It's like if you.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
Don't know how to do that, then sometimes it comes
up in our console groups like oh, this is a
new platform people are using and being okay with Oh
I don't know that, or how are people doing that,
what's a new technique for doing that? Or how are
you doing onboarding or you know, new patients. So being
not afraid to just continuously learn you don't have the answers.
I'm always learning something new, and I'm not afraid to
pause and pivot and going back to doctor A like
(48:55):
ask for help. I think it helps us to not
be able to bring out I would.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Also add something that I'm seeing more in emerging therapists,
I think because of social media of all these different groups,
that there is this assumption and or pressure to have
this like six figure practice really really soon out of school,
and not saying it's it possible, y'all, don't come for me,
not saying it's not possible, and not saying don't be
motivated towards it. But I'm seeing a lot more therapists,
(49:22):
really really early therapist having a lot of pressure to
fill a practice immediately, to fill a practice, to have
perfectly niched down, to have two populations that they're really
really seeking to build their practice, and if it doesn't
happen in the first like six months or a year,
really being in a tail spin because they see all
this stuff online about established practices. And it's so subjective,
(49:46):
right that I have colleagues who have established practices that
are seeing thirty five people a week, and I have
colleagues whose full time is eleven people a week. There's
so much, I guessay, kind of just subjectivity to that,
but really being mindful of being able to nuance like
motivation versus pressure, because there is this story or this
sense that any of us with full practices did it
(50:08):
very quickly, and that we're just always getting clients all
the time, and that every screening converts to a client,
and every client converts to a long term client and everything. Right,
So I think there's some type of disservice that's happening
right in terms of feeding this beast around productivity and
growth and whatever six figures means to people now that
(50:29):
that should happen in this unique space in the private
practice space.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
But that's why that self awareness stuff comes into It's like,
do I really want to have thirty five people a week?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Right?
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Is that what it's going to take for me to
make the six figures? Like at what cost? Or do
I do this and do this very well? And so
I can still get to my six figures, but it
may take me a little more time and I'm not
burning out and I am watering this other part of
me with my other friends and so yeah, it's not
always doing, but taking some time to really be and
that's to be self aware.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
That such beautiful advice. Thank y'all so much for sharing that.
I think that that would be really helpful to younger
clinicians in the field. So I appreciate you sharing that.
So remind us all where we can stay connected with you.
What is your website? I know, doctor Joey, you talked
about not really being on social media, so any social
media handles you want to share are places where people
can connect with you.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
Yeah, I'm definitely on there. Listen, it's not popping every
single day, but when it's.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
On there, it's on there.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
But I'm at ask doctor Joy that's a s K
D R j O Y on all platforms online.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
And what about you, doctor A.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
So my practice can be found at www dot ascension
behavioral health dot com. That's a s c N SiO
N behavioral health dot com. And I can be found
on Instagram at doctor Ayana A, which is doctor dr
underscore A y A n N A underscore A perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
We will be sure to include that in the show
notes so that people don't have to look too hard
to find either of you. Well, thank y'all so much
for joining me again. Always a pleasure, always, always a pleasure.
I'm so glad doctor Ayana and doctor Joror were able
to join me for this conversation. To learn more about
them and their work, be sure to visit the show
(52:13):
notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash session three
sixty eight, and don't forget to text two of your
girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.
If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit
our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
And if you want to continue digging into this topic
or just be in community with other sisters, come on
(52:35):
over and join us in the sister Circle. It's our
cozy corn of the Internet, designed just for black women.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
(52:55):
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
What what what what what
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