Session 370: Graduating From Therapy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

(00:57):
for joining me for session three seventy of the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. When a therapist decided
to terminate with a client, it may bring up lots

(01:19):
of feeling for the client around shame, embarrassment, and rejection.
Online you may have seen people referring to the termination
as being quote unquote fired by their therapist. Let's dig
into this a little bit more and explore the reasons
why a therapist might terminate with a client. So they've
both been on the podcast before, I'd like to reintroduce

(01:41):
you to today's guests, doctor Donna Orioo and doctor DeAndrea Jackson.
Doctor Orioo is an award winning DEI Advocate, international speaker
and certified sex and relationship therapist in the Washington, DC
metro area. Doctor Jackson is a licensed clinical psychologist, psychological consultant,

(02:01):
and mental health speaker committed to reducing mental health stigma
and minority communities and empowering women toward the fulfillment of
their potential. In our conversation today, we discuss some of
the reasons why a therapist might terminate with a client,
strategies for dealing with any feelings of rejection that may
come up after a therapist terminates with you, and how

(02:22):
to become comfortable with the idea of one day graduating
from therapy. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
please share with us on social media using the hashtag
TBG in session or join us in the sister circle
to talk more about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well,

(02:48):
I am so excited to be chatting with both of
you again. So you both have been guests on the
podcast a number of times before, but for those who
may not have faught you on the podcast, will you
introduce yourself and let it let us know your area
of practice, where you are, and what you specialize in.
So we'll start with you, doctor Orio.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Will I am doctor Donna Warrio. I'm a sex and
relationship therapist in the Washington, DC metro area. Specialty and
how colorism and texturalism impact mental and sexual health. I
like to say I help women feel free, fabulous and
if you know, keep it clean at least to start.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
And I am doctor DeAndre Jackson. I'm from the DC area,
but I'm on Midwest for you guys, I am currently
in Indiana, but I further clients in Leana, Virginia, Maryland
and the final Missigan. So you can find me wherever
you need to find me and we can meet in
therapy uses online because fella health is my niche a
specialize in any voluntary depression and trauma lad VISHI and

(03:46):
working with black women is nothing beautiful.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
So what have both of you been up to? Is
there anything new that's been going on since we last
talked that you want to share with the world.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
I'm writing a book what comes out in January? More like,
I finished writing and now I'm in that herrowing editing process.
They send me things with so much red on it
that it gives me heart palpitations. And then I realized, oh,
those notes are not for me.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Well, congrats, I'm very excited for that. And what about you,
doctor Jackson.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
I'm over here just trying to expand this practice and
find more opportunities to make a difference in women's lass
So I'm open for.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Both beautiful beautiful. So there have been lots of conversations
on social media, I feel like recently but also just
throughout time. I feel like I've seen a lot of
commentary around clients talking about their therapists firing them. And
I always bristle when I see that language, because the
language feels very harsh, though I think I understand what

(04:48):
people mean when they are saying this. So when you
hear or see these kinds of conversations, what is your
reaction to this kind of conversation around clients being fired
by their therapists?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Why did you get fired? What reason did the therapist
give for releasing you to your destiny? Because sometimes I
think some people are using fired like they don't mess
with you no more, when in reality they mean like, uh,
you got promoted, you got a new job, now you
got a new boss. Now you don't work it no more,

(05:21):
which is not the same thing as being fired.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
I wonder the same thing. But I wonder have you
reached your therapy to roles and now have time to
move on? And we're having difficulty detaching from that therapy relationship?
Is it not have to say anymore because ethically.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
We can't keep treating you.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
We're not here to have coffee with you and be
your friend. That's tade. So I also wonder is it
time to look forward and finish your work maybe with
somebody else. Have you reached the capacity of the something
she feels that to be able to provide you with me?
Or have you this resolved?

Speaker 1 (05:52):
That is, both of you are bringing up excellent points
that I would love for us to talk a little
bit more about. What are some of the reasons why
a therapist would decide that either it is no longer
a good fit or that like the work is done.
Can you both talk more about that?

Speaker 3 (06:07):
So if you're no longer a good fit, I think
sometimes we have to be reasonable at pinicians, we can't
solve everything for everybody. They don't have the appropriate skill
set for every problem, and so a lot of them
may have come into therapy for one hue that may
have been addressed and may have fit the therapist's skill set.
New things may arise that may require a different theoretical

(06:28):
approach or different interventions that your clinician has not been
trained them. And so if they're saying, I gotta let
you go and maybe I need to give you a
warm handoff to somebody else, that would be them being aware,
self aware and not wanting to be hard to you
to be sure. If they are affected right and they're knowledgeable,
they're competent, that would be my thought around is it

(06:50):
still a good bet? Another good fit question is have
there been boundaries that have been across as a client,
cross boundaries that a therapists and the therapist they cross
some their own boundaries that they're no longer feeling like
being with are appropriate ethically for the particular episode of care.
And then lastly, I was saying, have you just resolved there?

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Issually?

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Have you come in for one thing and that issue
that's been addressed and developed the skills, and your therapist
is given that intervention is to develop insight, relaxation, or
whatever the appropriate approach to therapy. And doctor oh, what
has given you the appropriate skills that you need to
feel fabulous free? And so it's time to move on.

(07:34):
I graduate from therapy.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
So, doctor O, when you responded to the question, you
talked about releasing you to your destiny, which I think
is a very different framing of the idea than firing.
So I'd love to hear from you, like, what are
some reasons why the therapists may decide that it is
no longer a good fit.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, I start off in the very first session talking
about termination, and I say that there are multiple reasons
why therapy between us made terminate. One of them is
if I die. Because that's weird. I'm gonna keep coming
to therapy. That's weird. I know it's making light of
my own death, but I figure one day is going
to happen, so I might as well make a light now.
But beyond that, I'm just like sometimes, and I tell

(08:14):
them this in the first session, sometimes we think we're
ready for therapy and we're not. And the thing that
will let me know that you're not ready to be here.
Is if you are constantly late, you're constantly canceling life.
Circumstances never seem to line up to your therapy schedule.
We are constantly having to move your appointment and you're
still not making it. It just means that right now,

(08:34):
in this season, at these moments, that you don't have
the time, space, or energy to dedicate to the type
of work that therapy requires. It doesn't mean that something
is wrong with you. It just means that circumstances at
this moment are not what they need to be in
order for you to be successful here. And what I've
nothing had nobody do is spend all this money and

(08:55):
then it doesn't give what it's supposed to give. Because
if you can't make it to therapy, then that means
you can't do the work outside of therapy. Because as
far as I'm concerned, therapy is not the work. Therapy
is the way to the work. And the work that
you're really gonna do is going to happen when we
get off, when you're no longer in the chair, when
you are now outside again, having to use the tools

(09:17):
that we've talked about, doing the thinking, having the conversations.
That's when you're going to do the work. But if
you can't even get to the place where you would
get the work, then you're probably not going to have
the time to do the work. So the time match
is just off and that's okay, come back later. Sometimes
I'm like, well, goals have been reached. What more do

(09:38):
you want? Do you have new goals? Because we can
talk about new goals, we can read up on some goals.
But I find that sometimes people are just very used
to the cadence of having been in therapy, and I'm
just like, hey, number one, I'm not your friend, I'm
your therapist. And number two, this is an expensive friendship.

(09:59):
If it was one, I'm like, this is not how
we gonna spend money. So for me, I ease my
clients back because it helps them to prepare for a
time where they're no longer there. So you saw me weekly,
Now every other week is what you're gonna see me.
And on those off weeks, I want you to take
the time to do something that is for your mental, emotional,
or physical well being. I don't care what it is,

(10:22):
but that same time it's gonna be now dedicated to
something else. So go get a massage, cook your dinner
with your own two hands. I don't know clean your bathroom.
Did you wash it? But today go wash it, have
a bubble bath. Do the things that sort of restore you.
That way that they are continuing to do restorative practices
at the same time slot, so that they feel less

(10:46):
need to constantly be in therapy beyond their expiration date.
So I mean I am releasing you to your destiny.
I didn't fire you. I'm telling you that I think
that you're ready, but I'm not going to kick you
out before you're feeling good to go. It just means
that we may need more skills, We may need more
tools in the toolbox that you can reach for during

(11:07):
the same time slot so that you can get into
the habit of No. I don't see doctor Donna, but
I do still have things that I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Doctor Jackson. I'm really glad that you talked about like
this idea that clients may sometimes need things that we
are not trained in. And I think this is most
often when I see the firing conversation, right that the
therapist feels like maybe you are requiring a higher level
of care or you need some kind of interventions or
things that you may not be trained in. Can you

(11:36):
talk a little bit about when this might happen and
how you explain this to clients, because I think what
often happens is like people their rejection stuff gets activated
right when they hear like, oh, I'm too much. I
think that's what they're hearing. So can you talk about
like how you have this conversation with clients and when
you might recognize as a therapist that somebody is beyond

(11:58):
your kind of scope of service.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
I'll start and go backwards, so I recognize when someone's
beyond my scope of service when I'm doing that reflective
practice and I'm really stretching and I'm feeling like we've
been over this. We've been over that strategy, We've been
over this psycho education, We've been over this still set.
I've applied some adjunctive therapies. I've recommended some augmentive things

(12:20):
as if like we've tried medication and and we tried
to I keep coming. Sure we try diatromatic breath and relaxation,
all these other skills for strategies that can be found
outside and practice outside as a therapy session. But if
now we're reaching around, we've knew me a little bit more,
and in my reflective practice, I feel like a brassing
at straws. Y've exhausted the here supervisions, I say, handling

(12:44):
missing something, what else might be applicable here? If I'm
going beyond that and I still can't put my finger
on the issue, that maybe time for a referral. And
in those cases then I have frank conversations with reflients.
I don't know everything. I know a lot about a
little bit of something, because that's what our training for
care is us to do. For those of us who

(13:06):
go on to get additional certifications or credentials and different
approaches to therapy, we know a little bit more about
a couple other things. For instance, in the case of
a trauma case, if I've exhausted my skills, whereas cognitive
processing therapy or prolonged exposure or trauma informed abut as
you do. If we're still not reaching what needs to

(13:28):
be taken care of, then I may say, hey, I
know the different approach to therapy that may be helpful
for you. Now that therapy is brands bid me or
mdr or art right, and I'll provide them with a
little bit of Fechtil education around that, and I'll explain
I'm not trained in that, that's not my feel set.
But what I can do is help find a warm

(13:50):
handoff for you for someone who does have that training,
so you can feel confident that this particular approach to
therapy will work for you, and if it does not,
you always will come back here for additional support and
reupping on some of the skills that we have discussed
over time if you need a little bit of maintenance therapy.
But at this point, this particular element is no longer

(14:11):
in my fill set, and are gotta let you go
to somebody else who can care for you along the way.
And so I often drop on my clients through about
visiting a journey, and we don't always reach the end
of our therapy growth or journey with the person that
is part of them, and that's absolutely okay. So with
vally space for the fact that there may be somebody

(14:32):
else lets to pick up the giants from here and
timpany walking with you.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
I love what you said, doctor Jackson. I think that
I'm in a space now where it's gonna sound a
little mean, as quiet as it's kept. I think that
a lot of therapists are very much practicing beyond their
scope of practice, especially in areas where they don't see
it as a big deal. So I'm a sex therapist,
and everybody thinks that they could do what a sex

(14:59):
therapist do because everybody's having sex. And my friend Goody
would say, just because you can eat that cake, don't
mean you know how to make that cake. It's not
the same skill set. But everybody believes that because they're
outside having sex, because they have a delicious sex life,
that that means that they are equipped to do that
type of work. Same thing with relationship work. And I

(15:20):
think that that is the downplane that happens within the
field of what someone else's scope of practice is. So
I like that. I mean the first thing you said
is like, hey, if I can't do it, then I
gotta recommend you to go somewhere else, because I think
some people are low key, high key keeping people because
they're trying to maintain a dollar amount in their pocket,

(15:41):
even if it means that they are out of their depth.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Ooh, I love that, doctor. Oh, can you say more
about how somebody might recognize that?

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Right?

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Because I think it could be that people are concerned
about their revenue, But I think probably what happens more
often is that people don't recognize like you said, right,
like it's even like, oh, oh, I'm trained as a therapist,
and so I can do all of these things. Will
we know that we cannot do all the things? So
what signs can people pay attention to? Or what questions

(16:10):
should they be asking themselves to assess whether they're operating
outside of their scope of practice?

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Do I know what I'm doing? Do I know what
I'm talking about? Do I feel comfortable doing the thing
that I'm doing? If I were me, would I see
me for this problem? Sometimes I think if we just
start with that one, if I were you, would I
see me for this problem? Or is there someone that
is better equipped? Would I be looking for someone better equipped?
Because if you're saying yes, then stop practicing outside the

(16:39):
scope of your practice. If you don't know what you're doing,
It's okay to admit that you don't know. It's okay
to say that you know what I got this, but
I didn't get that, and then to move accordingly. Like
I get a lot of second third hand therapy clients
who have tried to do sex therapy work with a
non sex therapist clinician who did not know what they

(17:02):
were talking about and did untold damage to that person
things like oh, well, if you're having pain oring sex,
you need to push through because what you want to
do another woman will. And I'm just like, did you
say that allowed to a client? Or when it comes
to people who are discordant who don't have the same

(17:22):
sex drive, saying like, well, you got to meet your
partner where they are, they're up here, you need to
meet them up here. That's not true, and that you
don't know what's not true tells me that this is
outside of your scope of work. So if you were them,
would you see you for this problem? Ask the question
have I received any type of training in this area?

(17:45):
Do I feel comfortable when I am doing this type
of work? If I were asked to give a presentation
one hour on this thing this week in two days,
could I do it? Do I know enough with no
prep to do it right now? Because usually that tells
you everything that you need to know, and usually it's
that you're out of your depth.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Great points. Thank you so much for the doctor, Oh
doctor Jackson, you mentioned the idea of a warm handoff
several times. Can you say, would that be? What is
a warm handoff?

Speaker 3 (18:15):
That's such clinical speed. That is when a therapist can
connect with another therapist and say, hey, I think this
person will be a good fit for you. It's a
warm referral, right, somebody not the need to the therapist
directory to say, lu could you buying on here, but
actually getting you the name, a contract and office number,
and sometimes depending on the level of care. I've even

(18:38):
in practice previously provided a warm handoff where we can
schedule a couple of sessions right ahead of time where
we're beginning to introduce the new therapist, and the therapist
may come in if it's the end of a conversation,
just to meet you and get a sense of who
you are and what some of the issues are. We'll
talk with that in therapist together about the work that

(18:58):
we've done. That's a I consider it to be a
warm hand I love a good warm hand on.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah, it does feel trickier to do, like in private practice,
and it sounds like you two Duck and Jackson have
been in other agencies. We did that a lot in
like college counseling, right, like when the end of the
intern year happened or whatever, and so you would meet
the new therapists that you would be working with. It
is a little trickier in private practice, but I think
also very worthy if you can figure out the logistics,

(19:23):
just because it does feel much more like, Okay, I'm
in good hands, like my current therapist is suggesting this
new person to me. I think it also helps to
cut down on some of that like I got to
read tell the entire story right like that they can
trust that there's been a little bit of information share.
Maybe they have access to the files if they've signed
a release for that to happen. So I do think

(19:45):
as much as possible, if that can happen, it does
vode better for a nice transition.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Absolutely, and that was in an interdisciplinary sector, so it
was a lot easier to do up there in private practice.
I have also offered Harry get here new provider or
release some information. I'd love to schedule the time to
speak with them to sell them in on the work
that we have done. So even if it's not I
know exactly whose person is a melangle all or these sets,

(20:11):
if you find somebody else that you think you want
to work with. And often those times when I'm referring clients,
I'll try to find a good profile that fits with
demographics final this client appreciates, or a skill set or
a degree level that this client as comfortable with. I
do a lot of these diligence when I'm making a referral.
So even if I don't know this person formally, or

(20:33):
even if I haven't interacted with this person, I know
enough about their skill sets. If they this may be
something that can assist you, and I'm happy to talk
to that provider to fill in any gaps that you
may have overlooked in your conversation or in your an sage,
and to give them a provider's per sective of the
work that we've been with.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
I love that I do similar specifically with the people
that I have that are high on my referral list.
So I have multiple tiered referral lists. So if I
don't have a feel for the clinician, I don't call
it a warm hand off. At that point, I'm like,
I don't know this person either, so good luck out
there in the streets. But anyone who has made it
onto my referral list, it's because I have an idea

(21:15):
of their personality, their work. We've had a discussion, and
we have a referral process between us, so being able
to help a client move from me to someone else
or from that someone else to me, it becomes easier
because we'll sign all the requisite paperwork. They and I

(21:35):
will meet one on one. If they can come to
the first couple of sessions or I can come to
the last few sessions, then we do that as well.
And I think that it just makes for an easier
transition for our parties, including whoever the therapist that you're leaving,
because I think that people be forgetting that we like
you too. We got to know you, we like you,

(21:55):
and we are also in our own sort of space
of more or grief about the closing out of that
therapeutic relationship, so it ain't just them, like you got
released to your destiny. And I'm sad.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
I think that's such an important point. And I want
to follow up on something you said before, doctor Oriowoll,
this idea that sometimes like you graduate therapy right like
you have all the skills you need, you met all
the goals you said you wanted to, and we know
that there's still sometimes of reluctance, right, like you said,
because maybe it fits easy in your schedule, like it's
something that you become accustomed to. Can you talk a

(22:33):
little bit about how you work with clients when they
are feeling like reluctant to graduate from therapy?

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Oh, we get into it, we do. So. I usually
just like, okay, so what do you see your goals
as and do you think your goals are met? I'm like, yes,
but I'm not ready. I'm like, okay, what does ready
look like? What does ready sound like? What is ready

(23:02):
feel like? What would it taste like? What would your
wallet say about ready? I'm like, let's involve your wallet
in and of this conversation, because you the one that
want to keep paying me, so your wallet needs to
be part of this conversation too. So we talk a
little bit about what readiness looks like and how much
of it is fear of leaving and what that fear

(23:22):
is tied to. So I like to remind clients that
I'm not closing my practice anytime soon, So if they
need to come back within the next year, chances are
I'm gonna be here. And if for whatever reason, I
am unavailable, number one. I made room for my old heads.
They already know this. I'm going like, oh, you moved
to the top of whatever list. If there's a waiting list,

(23:43):
you're number one on the waiting list, because I already
know you'll neve already worked with you. And if I
can't do it, then I will warm hand you to
someone who can, who I think will be able to
do right by you. But I usually have to remind
them that I'm still here. I ain't going nowhere. I
asked them to try it out right, Like it's like

(24:04):
trying to introduce somebody to a new food, like maybe
don't order a whole plate of it. I'm gonna order
a plate and you can have a wing. Let me
know if the sauce is to your taste or what
it happen. So I'm just like, okay, two weeks, I
don't want to see you. I'll see you in three weeks.
How did it feel not to be in therapy. Let's
process that piece. What did you do with the time?

(24:25):
Who did you spend time with? And I let them
know that if you want, you could just make maintenance
therapy appointments. I could see you once every two months.
Some people. They'll be like, well, I want to see
you once a month. I'm like, okay, you can see
me once a month. I'll see you once a month.
But then they start remembering what life is like outside
of therapy and they will release themselves to their destiny too.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
What about you, Donkey Jackson, What does this process toically
look like for you?

Speaker 3 (24:49):
I think we've discussed before in the one point of
time and another career out in the Navy, and one
of my supervisors that I was gratulating from his signship
gave me, I think the best advice that I try
to tell my clients as I lead into the influent
percent and all that, and that's that I'm trying to
work myself out of the job. I don't want to
see you forever, and you don't want to see me

(25:10):
forever either. If that's the case, we are doing something.
It is my goal to give you all the knowledge
and information that I have. I'm trying to pour into
you this doctorate degree that I got so that you
can move on and live life. Maybe released tea doesn't
right at that part, but I like that doctor row
that might start saying, and and so with that in mind,

(25:33):
I'm always reminding my clients and trying to work myself
out of the job. And so when I see them
becoming more selful and I see them being more intentional
or reflective, or they're building their insights and putting things together,
I always comments on that like oof, you got go
do working myself out of the job, so that I'm
reminding them the goal is not for us to heat
together indefinitely, but for them to have all the recognition

(25:57):
that I have to make is so confident living life.
But you might have like, oh, I remember just how
doctor Jackson would have said that that's great, but you
don't have to meet with me every week to hear
me say it. And so myss way back for all
the stretched my clients file, and most of them when
we need every TV because very quickly and then at
times goes up, we would and stretched those sessions out
for them further. And if we've been doing monthly sessions

(26:19):
for more than three months, more than sixth month, then
we're looking at we need to stretch youse out some more.
There's still a bit of addiction ment blod therapy and
my perspective, and flo'd like to stretch this foul. And
I've had clients who refus that, and I have conversations
with them about okay, well, next time, I went to
the lead with what you did build through between sessions,

(26:40):
what went well between sessions? What stretched you and made
you think about what it was that you learned in
therapy that you needed to apply. Or I'll say, you
know what, I didn't get to reach out saying that
you needed some coaching. We're saying that you needed some support.
So fill me in on how you got through all
this time, and I lead the conversation in the next
session with the strength that they apply to stay in

(27:02):
that space and not with fire therapy between that way
it calls up to the front of their mind. This
is what I've been doing sixty five and stealth, and
they adults have to be in this office once a
mob what every two months. I've got clients to come
with every three months. And I'll have with that and
I'll say that I.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Love that, and is so doughe We here trying to
we gotta fire ourselves because sometimes they won't fire us properly.
And I'm just like, okay, we're gonna fire each other.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
We are We talked a little bit about this idea
of firing, right, Like, even though that's not a word
we necessarily use, we typically use the language that cliencies right.
So if they say they've been fired, I'm sure we're exploring, like, well,
that sounds strong. Tell me what happened, right, Like what
happened when you were fired? But let's say you do
have somebody and doctor, oh, you already mentioned that you

(27:55):
are somebody who sees a lot of like I've had
a therapist before, and now you're like, they're second or
third the therapist. How are you working with a client
who does have some rejection feelings from maybe their previous therapists.
So maybe they went somewhere else and they thought that
they could do a good job of sex therapy and
realize they didn't know what they were doing, or this
person actually wasn't a good fit until now they end

(28:15):
up in your office. But do still feel rejected from
this other therapist? How might you work with them?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
We heal the thing that they heart first, right, so
we talk about what's the difference between malicious and what's
not malicious, but recognizing that harm still happens even when
someone didn't do it on purpose. There's usually a lot
of self blame in that space, like, well, I chose

(28:41):
this person, so I'm to blame. So we are working
on self forgiveness and reminding that you know what you
know and then when you know more, you do more,
like when you know better, you do better, and allowing
people to be in a space of evolution that they
got you to a point. What point did they get
you to? What did you get from this experience that

(29:03):
wasn't horrible? Let's talk about those pieces that were not
so great and how we can marry that into the
work that you are ultimately coming here to do, so
that you're still getting what you needed without having to
process through only what happened in this last place. So
I think I'm ending up doing like a both and

(29:24):
sort of work. It's like, what did you want overall?
And what pieces are further harmed because of where you
were right? So I never want to throw away what
other therapists have done, because just because the therapist is
harmed you doesn't mean that they are necessarily a bad
therapist in all respects of the word. Like it sounds

(29:47):
like they were really great about anxiety, they were really
great about the trauma they were really great about this,
but they weren't so great about that, and I remind
them that that's okay, and that I try to help
place it back in context. I think that we take
a lot of of our experiences out of context, and
I place it back in context. I'm just like, well,

(30:09):
in this whole wild world of things that are going on,
this is the thing that they didn't do as well
as they could have on. But this is something that
most people are not trained on. But they don't know
what they don't know, so they're doing what they can,
thinking that the thing is correct. And now you're with
somebody who knows a little bit more. Right, Like your
general doctor may say, like, your headache is induced because

(30:33):
of I don't know, you eat too much syogu and
you drink too much caffeine. I have no idea if
that's true, because I ain't never got a sugar headache, right,
So they may say that, But then you see a specialist.
A specialist has a completely different view of the problem.
It doesn't mean that your general doctor was wrong. It

(30:53):
means that their scope was limited. I'm saying that now
you're with somebody who has a different scope, And while
it may have been hurtful. While it may have been harmful,
and I'm not going to dismiss that there was hurt
I'm not going to dismiss that there was harm. We
are going to integrate that into the fact that I
have a different scope, I have a different view than

(31:15):
what they have, and we're going to work from where
we are, where you are, and where we know your
current context is to help get you the rest of
the way of where you're going.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
I remember growing up in high school watching things like
Sex and the City and Girlfriends, and I thought about
just how much time they spent just talking about men
in relationships, and it just started to feel like that
is the thing that women do. We just sit and
commiserate over all of our relationship and dating problems. There's
nothing else going on in our lives besides that. And

(31:56):
it makes me feel like as women were really not
encouraged to develop a sense of self. It's always about
how we can create and nurture relationship with other people,
But how about that relationship that we have with ourselves.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
What about that?

Speaker 1 (32:22):
So, doctor Jackson, the thing we have not talked about
as much is when clients fire us so to speak, right,
I use fire kind of colloquially. But sometimes we are
not the best fit for clients, right, and so sometimes
it is the therapist that recognizes it, and sometimes it
is the client. So what suggestions would you have for
a client who maybe is realizing I don't know if

(32:44):
this therapist is actually the best fit for me, Like,
how should they go about either having that conversation with
the therapist or just finding someone else? What suggestions would
you have?

Speaker 3 (32:53):
I would absolutely say truck instincts. Find another therapist that
you can work with sexivelya right, don't ever feel how
cottage to a therapist that you don't feel without a
good live with, or that you don't feel understand through
you or isn't giving me the skills what you're looking for.
Move forward, find another therapist that needed. I always recommend
closer to the therapeutic relationship, right, because if you go

(33:16):
to the therapist, they're not going to be any better
for the next client come along with similar issues. So
whether it was stylistic or the way they have conversation
or the amount of intervention they do with the way
they provide intervention. If you're not feeling like that's working
for you, I always encourage that conversation for termination so

(33:36):
that you can help that therapist do their job that
are for somebody else with it. But I also recognize
that that's not where everyone is, right. It really depends
on how well you know yourself. It depends on how
as third of you are, how you deal with conflict
and everybody. You may not be ready for that, but
don't show you therapists consistently with no real clarification about

(34:00):
what's going on. It's okay to send the message in
a secure messaging portal or via email just to say
you know, I'm moving forward. I'm going to continue when
I work with someone else. Thanks for the time, Thanks
for the intervention. You can you close the book. The
therapist doesn't have to prize. They may invite you for
a termination session. You can go where you're gonna not go.

(34:21):
Therapy is never a force folk circumptent, but I would
always recommend having a clarifying conversation if possible, to say
what wasn't working so many your therapist can for a
better job for you or for someone else, or you
can just let them know have decided to move forward.
I know it's a no, it's a complete fensic. I'm
moving on them. That's how crazy.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
For me, Both as a therapist as well as a client.
I speak to my expectations of the therapeutic relationship up front.
This is what I'm looking for in a therapist. This
is what I'm looking for in a therapeutic relationship. Addition
to these are the goals that I have for why
I'm here. This is why I'm here, this is the

(35:05):
problem I'm experiencing. This is the goal that I have.
These are things that I'm also asking clients at the
very start, what are your expectations of the therapeutic relationship,
because if it is outside of the scope, I can
tell you right now that, oh I ain't doing all that.
Oh you need someone. I'm going to teach you how
to tie your shoes, but I'm never gonna tie your
shoes for you, So you should go yonder. Right. I

(35:27):
will move you according to what I know about myself
as a therapist so that you can be where it
is that you need to be. But I would also
suggest that you check in with your therapist, and that
your therapist hopefully is checking in with you. What's worked
and what didn't work for you in our last session.
What's something that you feel like you got from our
last session. What's something that you feel would help you

(35:49):
feel more comfortable in the space that we are cultivating together.
These type of questions give room for you to give feedback,
right But if the therapist didn't say it, you say it.
Send a message ahead of therapy via email, the client portal, wherever,
and just be like, hey, we need to talk about
da da da da da. You said something in the

(36:10):
last session. It rubbed me wrong the way you said it.
I want to talk about it. I've had clients send
those messages to me and then we talked about the process.
We talked about that where and why, and we talked
about what they would prefer and whether or not that
was in my ability to do. But to me, finding
your therapist is like dating. Everybody you date ain't the one.

(36:32):
Sometimes they not the two to three or the four,
and you need to be able to move on accordingly.
I am not for everybody. My style, the way I
show up it doesn't work for everybody, and that's Okay.
Part of our work here, at least at my practice,
is about authenticity. If I'm not being authentically me, then
I am trying to be somebody else, which means I

(36:52):
can't teach you to be authentically you while I'm pretending
to be someone that I'm not. So if I don't
fit for you for whatever reason, let me help you
find somebody that's a better fit. I've had clients look
at the blue hair and be like, Nope, not for me.
Off the bat, I'm like, do you want to talk
a little bit more about that what that means? Or
you want me to just help you find somebody else.
Sometimes they do it both, and fifty percent of those

(37:15):
people will end up staying with me anyway, and fifty
percent will lead. That's fine. I can't be anything other
than what I am, and I want you to find
the thing that is the best fit for you. So
send an email, send a message like, Hey, this thing
you said, this thing you did didn't work for me.
Can we talk about that? And you use the first
ten to fifteen minutes of the therapy session so that

(37:37):
you can process that, and hopefully they're able to tie
it into some other stuff as well. But at the
very least you will practice the part where you are
assertive in your communication. Ghosting is a skill that requires
no cultivation. I want you to cultivate skills. Ghosting is
not skilled.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
I love what you said. They're both of you and
doctor Jackson like this idea of closure conversations, and I
do think it depends on your training largely. What I
hear both of you talking about is like this real
relationship centered kind of work, right, like this idea that
we have spent time together, and so I also want
to know, like if I'm not going to hear from
you again, just because you've become important to me and

(38:19):
our work together, but also it is a good skill
to cultivate, like you said, right, like this idea of
saying goodbye having difficult conversations like therapy is the perfect
place to practice saying to someone like ouch that hurt me,
or I didn't agree with this thing that you said,
whether it be as a part of us continuing our
work together and like we can get through this, or

(38:41):
if it is what I've decided that this is no
longer a good fit for me, Like it just can
be a good way to practice some of those skills.
I would love for both of you to talk about.
You know, we talk so much about like, how do
you know it's a good match between like you and
your therapist. How do you know if you are wanting
to terminate what the therapist be because maybe they've challenged

(39:01):
you too much and you're like, I don't know that
this feels comfortable versus this person is actually not a
good fit for me.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
That's a good question. I'd take it back to the goals,
even if they're challenging you or either pushing you know
when I have a conversation, or they're pushing too fast
and either pushing in the direction of your roles or
their fast. But then I'd also say check the receipts,
not just the money, but are you actually making this
progress and if some of this push that they're giving

(39:29):
you push that is effected and it's helping you to
transform your life in different ways. If they're not helping
to transform, if they're not meeting the need that you have,
whether it's frequency of the therapy or the goals that
you set out, or the style that they have, or
the insight in your buildings, have those conversations to see

(39:52):
if you're moving towards that treatment, right, every therapist is
supposed to have a treatment, and so if you feel
like nothing's happening, I'm not sure if they're just revenue
is the wrong way, or if they're not effective take
it back to the treatment. Can we check in on
where some of these both were when I came in
on a film with A B and C. Where are
we trapping in your mind of a therapist for these

(40:14):
particular goals? Because this is what I'm thinking, this is
what the work could look like on my side as
the client, and I'm wondering how we're going to get
to those roles that we talked about in those first
couple of sessions, because I'm wondering where that progress was going.
That was the recommendation that I had.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
I had somebody come through do a discovery call with me,
and I challenged them During the discovery call, I was
just like, it sounds like your previous therapist is dope.
It's doing the work, and you're running away from them
because now you have to take responsibility for your part.
I'm like, do you still want to have a first
session with me or do you want to go back

(40:54):
to them? I was just like, hey, it's up to you.
They did make an appointment with me, but they were
just like I sat in what you said in a
Discovery call, I'm gonna go back. I was just like,
all right, goodbye in peace. So I mean, for me,
I have sent plenty of clients back to their therapists.
I was just like, you know your therapist can do

(41:15):
this work that you're running away from them for. Why
are you running away from your therapist to come over
here to do the work that they are already doing right.
So like I challenge people in that way, But for
my clients who are running away, I call a spade
a spade. I just be like, oh, okay, I didn't
know that you only want to do this much work

(41:35):
on this particular problem. What about what we're doing right
now scares you so much that you don't feel like
we're on track? Sometimes I just walk them through the
thought process. So this is why we're talking about the
thing that we're talking about. This is how it relates
directly to the goal that you said that you wanted
to work on. Do you want us to back off

(41:56):
this goal? Are you feeling fulfilled? And where this goal
is we moved to another goal altogether and just leave
this piece alone. I've had lots of clients come in
on the discovery call. They will mention sexual harm, but
then don't want to talk about anything sexual. I'm like, well, okay,
let's talk about everything, but let's get you up to
here and when you're ready, take a break from therapy

(42:19):
and come back when you're ready. And I've had plenty
of clients that do that. They came in, we talked
about X for a while, they were able to resolve X,
and when they were ready to talk about the other
piece that was missing from the conversation, they came back.
I'm not going to force you. I'm not dragging you
across no finish line.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah. I think that this really speaks to what you
both mentioned in terms of like really being reflective and
like how much of the work of therapy actually happens
outside of the fifty or seventy five minutes you're spending
with your therapist. There is all of this reflection that
has to happen. And if you are thinking like Okay,
I want to terminate with this person or I need
to find someone else to really sit with these feelings
of Okay, what is driving this decision? Like do I

(42:58):
feel like I have made progress on my goals? Or
am I feeling uncomfortable? Because therapy, we will often feel uncomfortable. Right, So,
even being able to go back to the therapist and say, hey,
I thought about not coming this week because I felt
really uncomfortable, you'd be surprised by how much that can
really open up the work just by you going back
and saying that thing. So I definitely encourage people to

(43:20):
have some of these difficult conversations and to give voice
to whatever you're feeling with your therapist. Right So, if
you decide to ultimately terminate, totally cool, But there could
be a lot of other things that are going on
that it would be really helpful to talk about with
your therapist.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
I try to remind clients that if you come to
me weekly and we spent the whole hour together, that's
four percent of your day. What percentage of your week
is that? Zero points zero zero five? That is how
much time you spent with me, which is not all
that significant in the grand scheme. All your work is
not going to be done in therapy itself, and sometimes

(43:57):
you're going to ruminate on some things that make you uncomfortable.
I try to warn clients where I can that what
I'm asking you to do is going to make you
feel some type of way and you might have little attitude,
and that's okay. You could come back with full blown attitude.
Eye am prepare to receive it. I'm not going to
dismiss your feelings. I'm just like, well, what's going on
for you? What about this thing was difficult for you?

(44:20):
What about this thing felt harmful or harmful to you?
How can we rework this thing? But in the end
of the day, is the work that we're doing still
in alignment with the work that you're wanting? Or are
you recognizing that this thing requires more work than what
you originally thought and you want to back off of it,
because that's okay too. I don't think that enough people

(44:43):
hear that part. Like, I've got some beautiful trauma in
my past, but some of it I didn't recognize it
for what it was and the ways that it was
showing up until recently. It's been various iterations of me
working on these concerns, and the way that they show
up now is nothing the way they show up even
three years ago.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
This time, the.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Work looks very different and I may or may not
be ready for that work. And it's okay. It's okay
for me to say, you know what I want to
say with where I am, I wanna be here for
a bit before I try to do this additional thing
or this extra step, because no one recognizes the full
extent of therapy work while they're in it, Because sometimes

(45:26):
the work means that your relationships with other people change,
how you engage and whether or not you choose to engage.
You may find that the friends that you thought you
had are not the friends that you actually got. So
I feel like that's one of those therapy things that
we don't really be saying, like, oh, go get your healing.

(45:46):
We don't tell you that sometimes that healing means that
you're finn be by yourself a little bit. You might
end up single, and you might have to say goodbye
to those friends. You may find that you need to move,
You may find that you may need to quit a job.
And the things we look a little funky for a minute,
And are we allowing room for whatever that is and

(46:08):
being able to say, you know what I only want
to do up to this point. Let me do up
to this point, and I got to let the rest
of this work sit for a minute so that I
can find my next iteration. And that's okay.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
I think it's also important for clients to remember the
therapy is not this magical experience like doctor Oh said,
you help people and spend zero point zero zero zero
five that was for such a small segiment of your time.
It is not magical. It must be tangible or have
to be things that you are applying, changing, shifting, challenging

(46:41):
in your own life. And so the expectation that what
you're going to do in one hour with whatever freaquancy
that may be is an unrealistic expectation. So I think
a lot of that is off the clients checking their
expectations to what therapy think for bide for them not
looking for some magic solution, but recognizing this on them

(47:02):
to make that transformative change in their life, whether that's
putting a job, shifting relationships and then friendships, moving to
a different state, set in boundary with family members. You
have to do the work in order to see a leader.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
More from our conversation after the break, so I know
that we are all a little bit more seasoned in
our careers at this point, right, Like, we're not necessarily
early career professionals anymore. And so of course the way
that I feel about like a client terminating with me

(47:38):
today is very different than like my first year post
grad school. And so I wonder if you all could
think back to some of your experiences as early career
professionals and how it might have felt to have like
that first client say like I don't think we're a
good fit. What kinds of things would you suggest for
maybe early career professionals and even not who are dealing

(47:58):
with maybe some of those feelings of I wasn't good
enough as a therapist to help this person, or you know,
really struggling with this idea that we are not actually
a good fit for every client.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
I had to recognize multiple things, one of those things
being that I was being what my school taught me
to be, which was not necessarily being me as a therapist,
but being the way they said a therapist is supposed
to be. So it pretty quiet, and how does that
make you feel? Right, like that sort of weird whisper
thing that they sort of set you up with. And

(48:31):
realizing that I had not yet stylistically found myself as
a therapist. It took me time to find my own way.
I got a lot of really great bad advice when
I first started. Don't put so many black people on
your website. Don't niche that way because black people don't

(48:52):
go to therapy, Like I got one hundred percent black
client here, But go and tell me how black people
don't go to therapy. And looking back, the thing that
I would have told myself to do is read this book.
The four agreements, specifically the one about not taking things personally.
Your job is to orbit them when you enter their space.
They are the sun and you are simply someone that

(49:14):
gets to bask in the glow and help them shine brighter.
Sometimes you will do just that to an extent, and
then it will let you go and tell you to
go find another place to orbit. And that's okay. It
doesn't mean that number one, you don't have anything to learn,
because certainly, depending on what they tell you, you need
to sit in and reflect upon that. Is this a

(49:36):
difference in personality? Is it a difference in approach? Is
it a difference in what you offer versus what they need?
Being able to understand that sometimes there will be gaps,
and that there will also be gaps in your knowledge
set because you're a new therapist. Allow yourself to grow,
allow yourself to be who you are, and then allow
people to tell you that, hey, the thing that you

(49:57):
offer is not the thing that I need. And I
found that in reading the four agreements, specifically, don't take
anything personally, and don't make assumptions, and always do your best.
All those things they really come into the work because
if you're doing your best, the best for where you
are right now in your life, not the best that
you feel like you should be in ten years and
trying to make ten years of practice happen today. If

(50:19):
you're doing your best now, your best is good enough.
It may not be good enough for them, but it
doesn't mean that you're not going to be growing over
time anyway. And then you're not taking it personally because
it's not about you that they left. It's about them.
They left for them, it's not an admonishment about you.
And if they said that, hey, the thing that you

(50:41):
didn't do well was we didn't like the way that
your office communicated about appointments, that means that now you've
got something that you can work on. If they said
they didn't like the way that you say things in therapy,
then maybe you go get additional supervision on that thing.
Go do the work, be your best, all physically, you
at your best, and be willing to receive feedback and

(51:05):
understand that quite frankly, it's.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Not about you, thought you doctor Jackson, I would say
it also hurt my feelings, right, I remember being in
supervision west bag mus client Piarity. I'm the worst. I
need to reconsider my shows and profession. But I had
to learn how to respect the continuum of knowledge, right
and recognizing you that just because we finished the degree

(51:29):
or you passed the Life ins your exam or just
completed the post supervision hours that need doesn't and have
all the cving that doctor Oh is talking about. And
so give yourself the opportunity to respect that continuum of
knowledge and figure out where am I and how can
I increase that knowledge in the future so I could
be more prepared to address maybe something that I may

(51:52):
have used. And while I agree with doctor Oh that
it's not all about us, right, it is a relationship
you've contributed to the decision of this person has made
for them and they have the freedom to make that decision,
but what can we learn ourselves in that moment. And
so in addition to this continuum of knowledge, also reminding
yourself that this was a relationship that was a journey.

(52:14):
It was an honor to be on a journey with
that person. At any if they invited you in to
walk with them and then they said, you know, I'm
going to go find another running buddy because I'm ready
to move a little faster and you can't run at
my pace, appreciate the fact that they invited you along
with the infinite space that is there lights, that is
their experience, that it is they're functioning, or their trauma,

(52:37):
and allow that to disturb you. Well, that was special.
You've made an impact in some way, hopefully positively on
this individual. But maybe it wasn't positive, and maybe there
was something that you do need to reflect on. If
they gave you some of that feedback, If your client
fired you and let your little hard snope on the
way out, maybe you need to take that. Like acter
Eh said, they don't like your bill in practices, they're

(52:59):
still on in practice said take that as an option
for something that used to make changes about. But also
consider that you may divide it to this particular dynamic,
and what does this bringing up within me? So I
know when I was fired the first time, I was like, ooh,
it activated all of my need to be the most
competent person in the state, and the likability and the

(53:20):
m I good enough. That activated all of that. But
even if the client has don't they needed to differ them?
You need to do what you need to do free.
It's okay for you to breeth that firing as well,
and to say, what does this activate within me? So
that I can figure out how I deal with this
in the professional face, so that I can handle it differently.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Can I answer to that? Just real quick? If you
keep getting fired, then you are the problem, right If
it's consistently happening, at some point you have to look
at Okay, is it them or is it me? And
in most cases it's a combination. I would say it's
generally a combination. But if you can't keep nobody past

(54:05):
three sessions, it might be time to look at what
you're doing. If they haven't given you feedback, I would
seek feedback. I would send an email, Hey, I know
that you're done with therapy, with me, but I wanted
to get a sense of why you stopped, right. I
want to know why you stopped because I want to
know where I can improve. I think that sometimes some

(54:25):
of us we get a little too big for eye bridges.
We believe that our degrees, our licensures make us bigger
and better than our clients. And I'm just like, no,
they make you different, not better. And this is a
collaborative effort, and maybe if you collaborate with them, you'll
know why they keep firing you. So no t no shade.

(54:46):
I'm just saying, right, you got to use your resources,
and sometimes your resources in that moment. The immediate ones
are the therapy clients that continually leave you. I would
ask other therapists who may be familiar with your work,
and I would also see about is there a seasoned
therapist who supervises you that you know like and trust

(55:08):
and a client who would be willing to have someone
be in the session to just observe, who will not speak,
who will not be seen if y'all are on a
computer screen, who will be able to give you feedback
about what you're doing well and what you're not doing
so well, so that you can continue to get that feedback.
If you believe that you are so the best in
this field that you can't learn anything, please exit.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
For the clinician whood has clients that don't necessarily want
to have these conversations. Maybe just building into your practice
a satisfaction survey. If you recognize, like Girth, there always
saying you people are leaving you after three sessions, you
might need a know first two sessions who satisfaction survey.
Whether it's about a business practice and it's a therapeutic practice,

(55:51):
or what was a dress in session or your time management.
Consider the different things about the way you show up
or the way your business is run. And we though
have been a third quest so that they can send
it and maybe anonymously, maybe it's attached and coming right after.
But think about your client resource management and how you're
directly vote standing for it. Can be a better clinician

(56:13):
and a better bigpmer.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
If data data data, get the information. I do a
satisfaction survey after the first session that goes out automatically
for clients. If you are terminating services with us for
any reason, we send you a satisfaction survey. When you
do a discovery call we send you a satisfaction survey.
If you don't make an appointment while you're doing a

(56:36):
discovery call with our admin team, we ask you right then,
why Right Like when I tell you that we have
so much dag on data that I know that therapy
for black girls is our number one for referralsers and
as psychology today is number two. It's because I looked
at it. I know that our third way of getting
it is word of mouth. I know that we get
the most people wanting therapy in November, December, January, and February.

(57:01):
I know that those are our busy months, with means
that we have more hours available for discovery calls during
that time. I know what day of the week clients
prefer for therapy. I know what time of the day
clients want for therapy. When I am collecting so much
data that I know what is working and I know
what is not working. I know what insurance most of
the clients are coming with, even though we don't take insurance.

(57:23):
Day to data, day to day to day to day
to day.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Great suggestions from both of you. Thank you so much
that I think will be very very helpful to you. Both.
The new professionals and probably some season twe dis as well.
So before we wrap up, I would love for you
both to share where we can stay connected with you.
What are your websites as well as any social media
handles you'd like to share. We'll start with you, Doctor Jackson.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
You can find me at www dot rerwell dot com.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
What about you, doctor Oriolwell.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
You can find me at doctor donaoriowo dot com. Last
names oh r i owo so donaio dot com or
I'm at doctor dot donna oreoo on in their ground
TikTok and threads. I'm not really on the what's the

(58:15):
other one? The original one?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Oh Twitter?

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Twitter? I mean I'm over there under the same name,
but I don't really say nothing over there. And I
do offer a free once a week Tuesday in my
Black Feelings family space, so every Tuesday at noon, so
feel free to come through. Black women only. Must identify

(58:40):
ass black women. I'm not about to identify it for you.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Got it? Sure to include all of those things in
the show notes. Thank y'all so much for spending some
time with me again today. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Hi, I'm doctor Donald Orio oo, and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girls podcast. You said read it twice
here I go. Hey, I'm doctor Donald Orioo and i
am on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. You'd be asking, See,
I don't forgot my own name. I'm no judgment. Hey,
I'm doctor Donald Orioo and I'm on the Therapy for

(59:16):
Black Girls podcast. I am in session today debunking the
idea of being fired by your therapist. Hey, I'm doctor
Donald Orioo. I'm on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast
and we are in session today talking about being fired
by your therapist.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Hi, I'm doctor Jackson. Didn't mess it up already. Okay, wait,
forgot my name.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
I'm doctor DeAndre Jackson and I'm on the Therapy for
Black Girl's podcast.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I'm doctor DeAndre Jackson and I'm on the Therapies for
Black Girl's podcast.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
I'm doctor DeAndrea Jackson, and I'm on the Therapy for
Black Girlth's podcast. I'm in session today debunking the idea
of being fired by your therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
I'm doctor DeAndrea Jackson and I'm on the Therapy for
Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today debunking the idea
of being fired by your therapist.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
I'm so glad that doctor Jackson and doctor orio Will
were able to join me again for this conversation. To
learn more about them and the work they're doing, be
sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash Session three seventy and don't forget to
text two of your girls right now and tell them
to check out the episode. If you're looking for a
therapist in your area, visit the therapist directory at Therapy

(01:00:36):
for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want
to continue digging into this topic or just be in
community with other sisters, come on over and join us
in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet,
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done

(01:00:59):
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 370: Graduating From Therapy

Episode Transcript

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Session 370: Graduating From Therapy

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