August 28, 2024 • 51 mins
Athletes like Angel Reese & Sha’Carri Richardson have so brilliantly led women’s sports into the national spotlight, but with this has come lots of negative attention and straight-up negligent media coverage of these athletes and their sports. I wanted to hear from Black Women Sports journalists both in front of and behind the camera to explore what’s needed to correct some of these biased narratives.
Joining me for this Black women in sports media roundtable are supervising producer Jasmine Ellis, and Emmy-award winning journalist Jemele Hill. Jasmine has worked on shows such as Sue Bird & Megan Rapinoe's "A Touch More,” Speak.Easy for CNN+, and ESPNS’s SC6. And Jemele, making her return to the TBG Podcast, is a contributing writer for The Atlantic where she covers the intersection between sports, race, politics, gender and culture. During our conversation, we discussed the barriers that exist for Black women to enter the sports media space, the importance of cultural competency when covering women’s sports, and why we can’t just “stick to sports” when talking about female athletes.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session three seventy four the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hey everyone, I'm Jasmine Ellis.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
And I'm Jamel Hill, and.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
We're on the Therapy for Black Girls podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
We're in session today unpacking our careers as black women
in sports media.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Athletes like Angel Reese and Shiceri Richardson have so brilliantly
led women's sports into the national spotlight, but with this
has come lots of negative attention and straight up negligent
media coverage of these athletes and their sports. I wanted
to hear from black women's sports journalists, both in front
of and behind the camera, to explore what's needed to
correct some of these biased narratives. Joining me today for
(01:51):
this Black Women in Sports Media Roundtable are supervising producer
Jasmine Ellis and Emmy Award winning journalist Jamel Hill. Husband
has worked on shows such as Sue Bird and Meghan Rapinos,
A Touch More Speak Easy for CNN Plus and ESPN's
SC six, and Jamel, making her return to the TVG podcast,
(02:13):
is a contributing writer for the Atlantic, where she covers
the intersection between sports, race, politics, gender and culture. In
today's roundtable, we discuss the barriers that exist for black
women to enter the sports media space, the importance of
cultural competency when covering women's sports, and why we can't
just stick to sports when talking about female athletes. If
(02:37):
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in
Session or join us in the Sister Circle To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for joining me today, Jamal and Jazz,
(03:00):
and I'm very excited to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Thank you for having me, for having us.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
We are excited to be here now we are.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
This is Jasus's first time. Been happy to have you back, Jamil,
so excited to chat with you both. I wonder if
you could both get us started by telling me a
little bit about what initially drew you to a career
in sports media.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Well, for me, it was actually my love of newspapers
and for the young folks listening, they used to print
these things that gave you all the information that was
happening in your city.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You know, used to pick them up at the end
of your driveway.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
They're called newspapers since everything is so digital now. And
I was always like the neighborhood tomboy loved watching sports,
love playing sports, and me being interested in what sports
teams in my hometown.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I'm from Detroit.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Originally what they were doing was just a natural extension
of that love. But reading newspapers it gave me that
first curiosity about journalism. And then when I was in
high school, I took a high school journalism class and
the rest, as they say, is history.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I'm one of those weird nerds.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
That decided very early in high school that I wanted
to be not just a journalist, but I specifically wanted
to be a sports journalist. And I realized it was
a bit of an uncommon goal. It's not like I
knew a lot of sports journalists. I certainly read them
in the newspaper, but especially being a young black girl,
that was a very odd career path. Considering my other
(04:27):
friends that talking about being lawyers and all this other stuff,
and they're like, sports journalists wants to be that?
Speaker 3 (04:32):
But that was indeed me.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
So it all started from then and it's really the
only thing that I've ever done. And I told younger
journalists when they talked to me about their career aspirations
and asked me about mine, and say, hey, I'm literally
like the anomaly in this. Most people changed their mind
about what they want to do in their careers four
or five, six times. I just so happened to be
the one that found the thing that I could do
(04:54):
early and it stuck. It probably also helped that I
was very bad at math, and while I prospected science.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wasn't real good at that either.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So two of those possibilities were already eliminated, which left,
of course, a love of writing, a love of language,
and most importantly, a love of reading. And so all
of those things fed me wanting to do this for
the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
What about you, Yeah, I think like Jamelle, early on,
I knew I wanted to be a journalist. I did
not know or see it possible to be a sports
journalist for a long time. So I grew up loving
the news, loving TV, and loving sports, and those were
just two very separate things for me, and I ultimately
decided to pursue journalism. I wanted to be the next
(05:38):
Katie Kirk, and I got to college and realized I
didn't like being on camera and that decisions were made
behind the scenes, and I became a news producer, and
I spent the first almost ten years of my career
working in local news, working in different cities, covering communities,
(06:00):
and when I got to Philadelphia, my hometown, the stories
that lit me up the most were about the sports teams,
and I had to ask myself, like, why am I
only covering news? Why am I not also covering this
thing that I'm really passionate about? And a big piece
of that was just not seeing myself in the sports
(06:20):
space growing up as a little girl who loved football
and seeing these shots of the control room during big
Super Bowl level sporting events and seeing no one that
looked like me. So I just didn't connect that I
could be in that room, and it took me a
bit of time to realize I could be the first
person in that room. And I decided to pursue sports
(06:42):
media around twenty fifteen, and I've been in that space
ever since.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Other than we have two examples of people deciding very
early on that this is what you wanted to do
and then pursuing it in whatever way you could. So
like both of you, I am sure. I am still
coming off the high of the Olympics of kind of
multiple days were just being tuned into all these activities.
I wonder if there's any particular Paris Olympic moments that
kind of sit out for you that you are holding
(07:09):
on to.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Man, it was so many.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
What the overall banner story is that women carried this country,
I think, and if you want to be even more specific,
black life carried this country when it came to the Olympics.
Because I think I saw some stat that if you
just amassed all the metals that the women want, that
would have been enough to be like fifty eleven countries,
if I may use the incredible black math of fifty eleven,
(07:32):
but I would say probably Simone Bios that really stood
out for me. Now, I do have a personal bias.
I'm a producer on her docuseries that's currently on Netflix,
Simone Rising, so I felt a little more intimately connected
to the story beyond just being a sports fan, having
had to write for the documentary and helped create the
outline for the series. But just in general, I mean,
(07:55):
I thought, coming into the Olympics, she was the greatest
gymnast ever and there was really no real reason that
she had to come to this Olympic. She is considered
despite the fact she's not even thirty. She is considered
a quote older gymnast, and she had nothing left to prove,
and given all of the struggles she had from a
mental health perspective at the last Olympics.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Simobiles didn't owe us anything.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And yet she was still as excellent and as exemplary
as we've always found her to be, and I think
even more special than her particular performance was seeing how
the torch was passed and how now, all of a sudden,
the faces of gymnastics are black faces are women of
color just in general, which is a very decided switch
(08:39):
that's happened over the course of my lifetime. I grew
up watching Mary lou rettin because I'm seven thousand years old,
and to see the transformation of the sport and it
really becomes something that you've seen little black girls really
attach themselves to and drive and become the faces of
the sport is something when I first started watching gymnastics,
(09:00):
I never thought that I would see. So for me,
it was probably the continued excellence of some own biles
and the US women's gymnastics team in general.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, for me, it's really tough to choose. When I
think about again being young watching sports as a kid,
the Olympics were part of those early memories. So I
love the Olympics. I'm obsessed. My nails were gold like
I were all in. I was all in. I was
all in. But if I have to pick track and field,
(09:29):
I felt like there were so many surprises. I love
the stars you don't expect, and for me, one of
those was Gabby Thomas, who ended up walking away with
three gold medals at the end of track and field competition,
and I got introduced to her more watching Sprint on Netflix,
which was a great doc about some of the track
and field athletes. But I just think the women of
(09:52):
track and field, they so quietly just dominate And it
was really cool to just see someone who a year, oh,
I wasn't that familiar with come into this Olympics and
walk away with three gold medals. Like I just I
feel like not enough has been said about that for
her particular because she's not some own level of household
names of athletes, and then seeing Shakrie win silver and
(10:16):
get a gold. But I think i'm' have to go
with Gabby Thomas just because I like the people you
don't know that you're gonna fall in love with and
walking away from the Games and like, I'm like a
Gabby Thomas stan and yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I love that, love that, So I love that. Y'all
both have talked about like how the Olympics have been
a part of the fabric of sports love for you,
and it does feel like typically around the Olympics because
people are coming from all over the world. There is
a different level of like cultural competency. It feels applied
to when they are writing about and talking about the athletes.
I wonder what we could take from those kinds of
(10:49):
lessons the way we treat the Olympics and kind of
apply to sports more globally, like when it's not Olympic time.
Any thoughts you all have there, I.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Think you hit on something important.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Is that Jazzman talked about how much more familiar she
became with Gabby's story, and that is part of one
of the holes, if you will, of the Olympics, is
that typically for the American audience because Track and Field,
while it is on American television, it certainly is not
dominant in the sports landscape the way that other things are.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Clearly, you know, the NFL.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Is king, and then you have the NBA and baseball
and all these other things. And I know it's a
constant grab for American attention, but I think it does show,
at least in our sports media, that people do hunger
to be introduced to people. Everybody doesn't have to be
a prepackaged, already made star. That sometimes people want to
know great stories and great people. And so it's constantly
(11:41):
a lesson for sports media, but more specifically, the lesson
for sports media is that they have got to stop
with their very short sighted, underinvested coverage in women's sports.
In particular, I've covered two Olympics. I covered the Olympics
in Greece and four I covered the Winter Olympics in Italy,
(12:01):
and it's like we keep having the same conversation throughout
my career, like, oh, we should cover more women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Oh, we should cover more women's sports.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
We're past that conversation, and obviously we've seen with the
rise of the WNBA. Certainly the women's Olympic basketball team
again continued their dominance. But it just goes to show
that it shouldn't take a marquee worldwide global sporting event
every four years to get media outlets to invest in
covering women's sports. The table of us learning and knowing
(12:29):
and really amplifying these athletes should have been set before
the Olympics. And while yeah, certainly somebody like Shakiri or
Simone they enjoy a different level of media attention, but
there were so many stories that we didn't know and
I couldn't help but think, wow, if only we actually
invested in covering women's sports the way that we have
talked about doing, then this would have been in an
(12:52):
even bigger Olympic experience. And I'm hoping with the Olympics
being in Los Angeles in twenty twenty eight, that we
will see a more consistent effort to cover, highlight, amplify
women's sports because the audience is there, the audience has
been there, and the media for a long time has
played this game of chicken or egg. Oh, we'll cover
(13:12):
it if they get big. Then they get big, they
cover it, and then they're back off it again. So
it's like every single time women's sports feels like it's
starting over when there's a new face that people latch onto.
So I'm hoping that something on that end was learned
from this Olympics because the Olympics are in Los Angeles
in twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Agreeing with Jamelle, the media has to do a better
job of being curious and not trying to put people
in existing boxes and going to the story and seeking
out the story. I think the last five years there's
been more of that, more curiosity, more wanting to understand
(13:51):
the choices that specifically black female athletes are making. And Okay,
why is my Moore retiring? What's the story here?
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
This is crazy, you know, Like when you actually start
to pull back the layers of what's going on in
these women's lives and who they are as people, there's
so much there. And I think as sports fans we
also have to bring that to everything we watch and
be curious and not fall into the same traps. That
can sometimes be really easy because the media might lean
(14:23):
into certain tropes about what you need to look like,
or how an athlete has to be built, or the
way things have always been done. So I just think
media and fans if we just sit in our curiosity.
For me, going back to Gabby Thomas, I'm like, Okay,
this woman went to Harvard. You have my attention, Like,
what's going on here? I want to know more. Obviously,
(14:44):
I would think she has a lot of options in
the types of life she wants to lead for herself,
and she's choosing track and field. So I'm going to
pay attention to this choice that she's made, and i
want to see how well she can compete. So I'm
also hopeful that la literally in our backyard will give
us more time in the American sports media to really
(15:06):
sit with our stories and dig deeper on who people
are and what helped them get to where they are
as athletes.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And if I can piggyback off what Jasmine said the
other thing, and I think, especially in the last year,
this has been very obvious.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I won't say we.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Because I know, and I know Jasmine knows, but some
of my fellow media members need to learn how to
talk about women's sports because the one thing that bothers
me so much, and I'm gonna be real a lot
of it as men, okay, is that they are able
to come into a women's sports space and brag about
how much they don't know, and that be like, well,
(15:45):
I've never heard of this person, even though it's like
they're literally the best at what they do. How have
you never heard of this person? And if you have,
how are you so ignorantly confident to say that to
an audience you're supposed to be serving because part of
our job as journalists is to things in the context,
and not that everybody who has a MICA as a journalist,
because that is clearly not true. But if you are
(16:05):
someone who has an audience, it is your responsibility to
come to the conversation with a base level of information
or informed in some way. And that's something that female
journalists and women in sports media don't get to do.
I can never sit on anybody's NFL set and say, oh,
this Josh Allen got Man, never heard of him, but
he seems great. But they do that all the time
(16:26):
with women's sports, and so I think the media needs
to not only cover women's sports better, they need to
grow up in how they cover women's sports as well.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Jamel, when you were here before, and we've had countless
conversations on the podcast just about how many women have
been kept out of sports right because the assumption was that, like,
could you really know football? And like how big of
a fan can you really be? When it's clear that
you and your colleagues go above and beyond to be
well versed, and it feels like just regular sexism that
(16:55):
like men can very easily enter women's sports spaces even
though they do not understand what's going on, Like, yes,
you may understand the mechanics of what's happening in basketball,
but they are not thoroughly invested in like the lives
and like the stories of the athletes in the ways
that you all have to be when you were reporting
on something like football or men's basketball.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, or they don't just understand the culture.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
That's why that whole just complete conversation about WNBA players
being jealous, just literally there was one conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
That set me on fire every time it happened.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
It was that because they didn't understand the culture of
the league that they were very loudly talking about every
single day. And when I first came a professional journalist
in nineteen ninety seven, I spent the first two years
covering primarily women's sports, and one of those was the WNBA,
so I actually covered the league and covered a team,
(17:48):
So there was a base level of institutional knowledge that
I had, and I covered women's basketball and the WNBA
on and off throughout my career, but just never as
intensity as I did at the start.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
There's a base.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Level of institutional knowledge that you need to know about
the things that you're talking about. And it is just
very bothersome to me that it's not required of men
to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
They're just allowed to be ignorant.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I mean, I had the feeling and hearing some of
these conversations that have taken place around the WNBA and
Caitlin Clark and the players kind of how I feel
when I turned into news networks and they talk about
black people and everybody on the panel is white.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I'm like, I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm not, Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
These are the experts got it, and so it was
very similar, and they didn't seem particularly interested in learning
that institutional knowledge. So I'm hoping that when twenty twenty
eight comes around, these lessons won't be quite as painful,
but they have time to study up, as Jasmine said,
because there's going to be no excuse to have that
(18:46):
kind of lack of depth when you're before an American audience.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Can I just say a personal story? I realize now
I ended up working in local journalism before transitioning to sports.
But I tried to get sports internships in college and
I was met with a binder that I had to
photo id male athletes from every sport, And you know,
I didn't know golf, I didn't know who had won
the PGA the year before, and I didn't get that
(19:13):
internship at a network that I won't call out. And
then I can't tell you how many sports knowledge tests
I've had to have starting out to get my foot
in the door at different networks or interviews that I've
had to sit down for, and the first question is
so you like sports? Like I'm here interviewing HR has
already got me this far. Why are we starting with
(19:33):
questioning whether I like sports? Or why do I like sports?
So maybe for men we should bring back some sports
knowledge tests or I like that.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
And I'm so glad you brought that up because I
had totally forgot about that. I had to take one
too for an internship as well.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
And I don't think there were any women in the
photo book. I don't remember any female athletes.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I don't either, there was none. There was no women
in the photo book.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It was basically like learning about like you said, they
asked you, like, all right, who has the most home
runs in Major League Baseball history?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like all of the stuff that you were required to know.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
And I'm not saying that that's not important, but I
did think it was strange.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
That I had to do that.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And trust me, when I was a beat writer on
the Grind, the guys that I covered, they've had a
certain knowledge and access to sports that women have not
necessarily had throughout our lifetimes. But it would amaze me
often how people just assume that, just because they're men,
that they knew certain things. And then in private conversations,
I was like, oh, oh, so they're just as dumb
(20:31):
as like some of these other people out here when
it comes to sports. But there's an assumption, Oh, he's
a dude, he clearly understands everything about football.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Trust me, he does not. I can tell you that
is not the case.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
I remember someone said that you have to get unbusy
to get busy, like the more relaxed you are. We
saw what happened with the pandemic. More people were getting
pregnant one much to do. So, like you like on vacations,
your lobido may be higher.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
So of course you can't go on a vacation every
two weeks. But what can you do to just slow down?
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I mean, you really can't even feel your sex strive
if you're stressed out and you're always running around. So
just slowing down more to be in tune to your desires.
I know, for me, if I'm too busy, I can
forget to eat, right. It's not that I don't get hungry,
I just couldn't even pay attention to the fact that
I need to eat. And so I think it's a
(21:30):
similar thing with sex. If you're always on the go,
always working, always checking your emails, your body just is
not going to be prioritizing pleasure.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So j Justleen, I wonder if you could talk to
us about how some idea or something that we are
curious about, as you mentioned, how does that get from
like just an idea to an actual something that we
see on our TV screen or on a streaming platform,
Like what is your role as the producer in shaping
what we eventually see?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, I think the first step of that is pitching
to your talent like Jamelle, who I've had the pleasure
of working with a couple of times and coming to
her and so let's say we're covering the Olympics, and
let's talk about Simone in this way, And it really
starts with us having a dialogue about Okay, everyone's going
to have this conversation about her, but the conversation we
(22:29):
want to have is what And it's really just thinking
about For me, I go back to I always think
about my mom watching My mom's a sports fan, what's
the thing that is going to hook her and make
her feel engaged? Or my friends who are sports fans,
so always thinking about who is this for? And I'm
always thinking about all those examples are black women. So
(22:49):
I'm thinking about my friends who are sports fans and
like creating a conversation that interests and engages them, And
isn't just the headline, the surf level, the checking the
box on a topic. It's really getting into the weeds
of something that looking at the Olympics was and doing
(23:10):
that in a way knowing the way the internet works
that it could be online forever as a way to
archive and commemorate these moments in sports. And if working
with someone like Jamel, having a black woman have that conversation,
how can we do that in a really smart, engaging,
entertaining way. So it's a long way of saying it
(23:30):
all starts with conversation and thinking about who are you
having that conversation for, and always keeping that center as
you continue to produce, you want to deliver something for
your core audience.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And Jimmy, you've already kind of referenced this piece, but
pretty early in this current WNBA season, you wrote a
piece called the One Downside of Gender Equality in Sports
where you reference this conversation that obviously had you very heated,
and so I'm curious to hear you talk more and
you've already shared some, but to talk more about how
the detachment that some of the people who are covering
women's sports has, how does that impact the integrity and
(24:06):
the quality of the coverage that we actually get, and
what do they need to do better.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I think one thing that was very beneficial for me
was starting my journalism journey as a newspaper reporter. And
when I came out of college, I mean, you picked one.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Or two paths.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Either you were a print or you were broadcast right,
and now you're pretty much the utility player journalists where
you have to be able to write and produce and
be on air and podcasts and so many different types
of skill sets.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
But for me it was newspapers and so covering the
team and covering a beat.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
That means that when you write something in the newspaper
the very next day, you usually have to face the
people you wrote about, and I think that is a
way that keeps you responsible as a journalist. It puts
you in the position where you have to make sure
what you have written and what you have said is
tight because these people who may not like what you
(24:58):
have written and said are going to force you to
defend that. And So because of those personal interactions with athletes,
I think it taught me that I can be critical
and respectful at the same time, right, And so when
I had my television career, I always kept that in mind, like, eventually,
I may see this person, okay, and what's the conversation
(25:19):
going to be like if I get a little too
reckless with my mouth talking about them on TV? And
so what has really dramatically changed is that I watch
sports television now and a lot of people in the
media have no problem taking off on somebody in a
very personal way. It's one thing to give you criticize
what they do because that's just open to criticism, that's
(25:40):
part of being a professional athlete. But when they start
taking it real personal and then next thing you know
is some escalating fight back and forth between a media
person and the athlete. That's when I see how that
can get lost. Is the longer you're on TV and
the more you're in the studio, the further you are
removed from the people that you're talking about. And because
(26:00):
of that gap and that distance, that can lead to
sometimes some of these conversations that frankly are really low
hanging fruit that don't serve anybody, and certainly don't serve
the audience. And so when I wrote that piece, I
wrote it from a place of somebody who talks to
WNBA players, who again has the institutional knowledge of having
(26:22):
covered the league, who understands the culture that is going
on there, and also the additional layer of what it's
like to be a black woman in sports, and especially
given the way that this league is dominated by black
women and some of the narratives and tropes about black women,
understanding how that part of this was playing into how
(26:44):
people were absorbing this moment where the WNBA is experienced
a super nova of popularity centered on an athlete that,
through no fault of her own, and kate Ln Clark,
has become quite polarizing, and however, was bringing their own
things to the table and not understanding that the people
(27:04):
who are most going to pay the price for how
Caitlin Clark turned into a culture war were black women,
and so being a part of those conversations, being able
to frame those conversations is the reason why I wanted
to be a journalist. Certainly, when I first started off
in my career, it was about the results. It was
about oh, covering cool sporting event X, it was about oh,
(27:25):
seeing this championship game, seeing this person's athletic legacy being
built right before my very eyes. Historically, and those are
all great things, but as sports has become even more
deeply embedded into our culture and frankly been at the
center of some very interesting culture wars, to me, writing
about the messy intersections of sports, race, gender, politics, and
(27:47):
culture is the place to be in our current and
foreseeable sports conversations, to be honest, and so for me,
like that's the important component of this is at the
end of the day, twenty years from now, thirty years
from now, forty years from now, or once i'm dust,
I want people to be able to look back at
my work and say, I understand what was happening in
(28:09):
this moment. And so there's a certain responsibility that we
have to take as journalists that we're framing moments that
people will look back on trying to understand and so
what are we saying about the framing And it's our
responsibility to get that framing as right as we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So I feel like I only really see black women
take care in that kind of way, especially when they
are covering black women athletes, right, And so I'm wondering, like,
is this something that you've developed just because this is
your particular lens or is this something that journalists are
really supposed to be doing to pay attention? And I'm
thinking of it, of course as a psychologist. This is
(28:45):
a mental health podcast, thinking about the mental health impact
that some of the stories I've seen can have on
some of these women, especially because they're so young, right,
I think we look at them and like they're superhuman
in lots of ways and very athletic, and so I
think it's lost how young and like the backgrounds that
they sometimes come from, that these stories could impact their
(29:06):
mental health and I think in some negative ways.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, I mean, it is.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
A slippery slope as a journalist because part of the
nature of what you do is to disrupt. That disruption
can have a myriad of effects, and you are supposed
to be a truth seeker and a truth teller, and
you constantly have to weigh how you're exposing or how
you're presenting that truth. And so like Simon Biles, I
(29:31):
think during the Olympics, she said, how about not asking
athletes as soon.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
As they've won? So what's next?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Right, She's barely had to have to process what just happened,
and we're like, so not what.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I understand why she said that, and what she said
was totally reasonable. The problem is you don't get to talk.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
To Simone Biles every other day. I wish I could
call her and say, like three weeks later, Ao, Simone,
what you got going on next? But we don't get
to do that because Simone is not available.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
So there are these things you try to be mindful of.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
And I have learned athletes, these are real people, and
I don't want to thinkify them. But at the same time,
I think there has to be some room for me
to do my job, and sometimes part of that job
it comes with criticism.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But you can do that in a way.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
That is both earnest and truthful without necessarily being harmful
and disrespectful. So I feel like that there is room
for that because yeah, I mean, especially now in this
current climate of sports. Listen, when I first started covering sports,
nobody talked about mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Nobody. It was if an athlete didn't perform, they're soft.
I mean, you could take off on athletes and ways.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
That were considered to be just part of the culture
and how you talked about sports. But now as they
have become more vulnerable and they have become more comfortable
exposing the fact that, like, hey, I don't have everything together.
You guys might see all these things I've accomplished, you
might see me leading this great, flashy, rich lifestyle, but
deep down, I'm in trouble. I think as they have
(31:02):
let us in more on what it's like for them,
I think it has informed how we report on them
and how we talk about them. And so it's something
that we now keep in mind, even though it happens
from time to time, the culture of like calling an
athlete soft and all these other things, I don't think
it's as bad from a journalistic standpoint as it used
(31:23):
to be, because I think we do realize that a
lot of these players, especially if they have the success
at a young age that you were talking about, you know,
like Sha Carrie Richardson is a perfect example. She went
through a lot, and He's why her even being in
this Olympics was just a reward in itself, and seeing
her go through that journey and go through it so publicly,
(31:44):
it informs how you speak about her.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
At least it does for me.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I can't speak for everybody, So I think as we
continue to have these more really candid conversations about mental
health and sports, it helps make us better as journalists.
It's kind of like comedians learning that the jokes they
told old in nineteen eighty eight don't fly as well
in twenty twenty four. It's like part of your job
is to actually evolve with the thing that you're talking
(32:07):
about and covering.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Very good points more from our conversation after the break
and Jess when of course, as the producer behind a
lot of these shows, right like, that's a lot of
what you are doing is making sure that the talent
is prepared and so you know, one of your newest
(32:29):
ventures is working with Sue Bird and Meghan Rappino on
their new show A Touch More. Can you talk about
what kinds of conversations you're having with them and maybe
even other holes and executives about like how to cover
these stories in a culturally sensitive and responsive way, but
also in a more holistic way.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, I think I haven't had an experience ever like
working with Meghan and Sue because they are women who
have been the story. There are also women who are
very intentional about representing and including all types of women.
So the way that they approach a conversation is just
unlike anything I've experienced because a lot of the work
(33:08):
that you might have to do with someone who's not
an athlete, who hasn't had high pressure playing in a
championship or an Olympics, they have it. So there's not
a lot that I have to prepare them for In
terms of that perspective. It's more so just bringing awareness
of conversations that are happening and encouraging them to join
(33:28):
that conversation and add that perspective. But I think with
all hosts that I'm working with, I'm always just trying
to pull back a curtain for their fans on how
they're thinking. I think Jamelle might agree with this is
sometimes she doesn't realize she has an opinion that people
(33:49):
would find interesting until I'm like, that's really interesting, Like
you should say that out loud on TV, or she's
just being Jammelle and has an idea and thinks it's
funny and like, you know, that's just some thing for
our production meeting. But I'm like, no, that's a topic
for the show. So it's really just kind of like
I'm playing the part of the fan at home watching
or listening to a show and guiding hosts to have
(34:14):
the conversations that their fans would want to hear. That's
why I love my job. I just get to be
a fan and ask for really cool, interesting conversations. And
that's my pitch for more people, more black women, to
do this work of producing, because that's one of the
only ways that we're going to get the stories we
care about if we're in the room asking for those
(34:36):
stories to be told, asking for people. You have to
talk about this. My group chat is on fire about
this conversation. We have to talk about it on our show.
So it's really the best job. Second maybe to Jim,
I don't know. I mean I think some days you
might have me be Jazz no hair and makeup.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
So I want to talk a little bit more about
the show that you both worked on, which was SC
six and I would love to hear a little bit
more about how that came together and what it was
like to collaborate with one another. We know, when you're
talking about black women athletes in particular, like you can't
really just stick to sports. There is this context that
these stories exist within. So tell us a little bit
about how that show came to beg and what was
(35:20):
it like to collaborate there.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Well before the Jasmin worked together on the SC six,
Jasmine was an unofficial producer of my previous show, His
and Hers with my former co host, Michael Smith, and
so Jasmin will always be hitting me up or walking
past our cubicle like, oh, when y'all did that, that
was really great, or like, are y'all going to do
this or that or whatever. So she was already producing
us without having the official title.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Before that ever happened.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Because I like to think when we did television, we
did it in a way that was unapologetically black, sometimes
so black that I was like, they really let us
do that on television, no doubt. And so when it
came time for us to create the team of the
SC six, Jasmine was already a senior Sports Center producer
(36:07):
at the time working on the six PM Sports Center
with the previous talent, and just given the fact that
we already had a relationship outside of the show, and
because of her being our unofficial producer on His and Hers,
it was just like such a natural fit. And this
is no disrespect to the producers that I've worked with,
because I've worked with some good ones, work with some
bad ones too, but work with some good ones.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It is a different feeling as a black talent when you.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Have a lead black producer that you don't have to
explain yourself to all the time or explain the whole
two Americas, like.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I know the rest of y'all talking about it
this way.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
But this is how black people are talking about it,
and this is why that conversation, why this story, why
the way we frame this story deserves to be framed
that way.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And so that part for me was just a huge relief.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Because it was just like, Okay, finally I have a
producer that kind of it's me. That doesn't mean that
you're gonna agree on everything, because sometimes you may see
things different way, but there's a base level of understanding
and like mindedness that made the process of putting together
the SC six so much easier. Just to give a
small example, I mean, I think Jazmine would agree with
(37:15):
me on this. One of the greatest things we ever
pulled off was making the Sports Center theme song, the
Different World intro all right, and then we got the
original cahas. The only people who were missing, I think
were Kadeem Harnessing and Jazzmin God, but that's because they
were actually filming something together at the time.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
But we had everybody else.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
We had Rong, we had we had everybody simbad, we
had everybody right, and we used ESPN talent as well,
And I don't think we had another producer who didn't
get the cultural significance of that, and the cultural significance
of that being on Sports Center never would have got it.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
It never would have got done.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And so that was part of the synergy of our
working relationship is that Jasmine was always down to try
something new or try something different or us to already
amplify the cultural connection that we already had and put
that on a mainstream platform, legacy brand like Sports Center,
And so it made the working experience really remarkable. And
(38:17):
I realized after the fact I knew it during but
I think it was really more clear after the fact
just how rare that is at the network television level like.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
ESPN, Like you're just not going to get that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
So that's part of how we fostered such a good
working relationship that coincided obviously with the friendship as well.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I'm sure that both of you are also paying attention
to just the media landscape right now. We know that
every day it feels like there's another announcement about layoffs
and media spaces. What kinds of things would you be
able to share with maybe other colleagues or people who
are interested in the field about like how to keep
your confidence in a sports media landscape.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I have had to go on a journey of preserving
my confidence the last couple of years. I had a
daughter two years ago and just coming out of maternity leave,
I really struggled to find my space back in sports media,
as you mentioned, in the wake of everything that was changing,
(39:14):
and so for me, one of the biggest parts of
that was leaning on my network, whether it was people
I worked with before, like Jamel, or people who were
just peers in the industry who I admire respect. You know,
if I'm interviewing for a gig and just texting my
friends to like gass me up about something or needing
(39:37):
to just talk through an idea or a topic. I've
dealt with layoffs, I've dealt with looking for work or
not getting the job, but just always coming back to
the people who can remind you who you are, what
you've done, what you can do is just hugely important
because the networks won't do that. The network executives will
(40:01):
not do that. They will make you feel replaceable, and
you have to go back to the people who you've
worked with, who you can vouch for your work, or
the people who have seen and enjoyed your work. And
then just talking to yourself, gassing yourself up like a
ray on, insecure in the mirror, in the mirror, but yeah,
because every day you're going to wake up, something's going
(40:23):
to be on Hollywood Reporter, somebody's going to be cutting something.
You just have to stay confident and the type of
person you are, the type of work you want to do,
and don't waver from that in the noise of all
of the uncertainty in this business.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Then you also got to be able to pivot.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Twenty twenty three was professionally one of my more volatile years,
if not maybe the most volatile year that I've ever had.
I left a major company like Spotify and the podcast industry,
as I'm sure you know that your joy drastically changed
from when I first got in it in twenty nine eighteen.
(41:01):
And you know, coinciding I live in LA with the
strike that was happening in Hollywood is like that strike
trickled down to basically everything, So there was this huge
amount of fear and retraction that was happening across all
media landscapes. Really, I mean, I had to do some
career soul searching, not in the sense of like me
not wanting to do this. I knew I still wanted
to do this. I knew there still was a place
(41:22):
for me to do this, but what that would look like.
I did not have an idea. And one thing that
I have learned since leaving ESPN at twenty eighteen is
you really have to stay nimble, and I've been able
to do that in terms of understanding the root of
what I do and what I'm good at is storytelling, interviewing,
building trust with sources, like the fundamental journalism things I'm
(41:45):
good at that is never going to change, right, So
I tell this to younger journalists all the time, is
that the basics of the job haven't changed since the
Stone Tablet. Like literally, people are going to need information,
They're going to need competent people to do tell them
and gather this information. That is always going to be
the case. The only thing that's really changing constantly and
(42:05):
rapidly is the method. Again, stone tablet yesterday, Today it's TikTok,
it's threads, it's all these other different forms YouTube.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
That's what it is today.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
That's just method though, And so me and Ja we're
more or less sort of independent contractors with mercenaries, so
we're working for multiple different outlets, and even though part
of that can be scary, it also has given me
the most peace I've had in my career because everybody
I choose to work with now are people I want
to work with, not people I have to work with,
(42:37):
and that makes a very big difference with how I
approach the job. So even when I hit those potholes
or that volatility, being able to lean into the autonomy
of what I'm doing is helpful and also it teaches you,
in this phase in my career, how to take bigger
swings or bigger bets on myself because I came up
(42:58):
through legacy media and worked for a very true d'itional
corporations and companies.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
That was something I.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Didn't really understand until I left ESPN, and I had
to think about it one day, like why would I
work harder for ESPN than I will for myself?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
That probably isn't going to happen.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
And so a lot of times what convinces us not
to do things is because we're worried about certain fears.
Understanding that most of us, especially black women, have outperformed
at every job we have ever been on and that
is not going to change. So I had to really
lean into being my own best advocate and really lean
into betting on myself. So that would be my advice
(43:37):
to the young people who still want to do that,
is like, you got to be okay with taking some
big swings, and even if you miss, I still think
it's going to work out for you because you're either
going to learn something or it's going to bring you
to another place that's closer to the thing that you
want to do. The business is volatile. I've been hearing
this for nearly thirty years I've been in this business.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
It's always been volatile.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
That part is also not going to change if you
really want to do this work. And so what I
would just say is just stay the course and continue
to get better. Invest in being the best version of
whatever journalists you want to become, and that's going to
always pay off. The other things will fall into place.
They'll take care of themselves when that preparation meets opportunity
(44:20):
moment happens. You want to make sure that you are
at the top of your game when it does. Love that.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
So what suggestions do y'all have for us for who
to be paying attention to in terms of really good
women's sports coverage right now? So I love the stuff
that they're doing at a touch more Jamelle, of course
you're always a favorite, But who else do you want
to put on the radar that's doing really good sports coverage.
Speaker 4 (44:41):
One of our former colleagues, Tarika Foster Brasby, she's been
covering women's basketball for a while and she is one
of the best voices, best media personalities when it comes
to that.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
There are certain outlets I think that do really well.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
The athletic is something like I read, you know, pretty constantly.
I think now I sort of pay attention to the
people who have been doing the work for a long
time who just haven't gotten the boost and the amplification
to do that work.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Aerial Chambers is.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Another one who is like a really good writer and
emerging young journalists voice. When it comes to again, women's basketball,
I would say women's sports just in general, So at
this point what people should do, especially as there are
some of these women's sports that they're learning about and
still in that sort of let me educate and bring
myself up to speed, pay more attention to the people
(45:31):
who've been covering it a long time, particularly when it
was no there was no benefit in doing it. Those
are the people who are going to be covering the lead,
the teams, the players, the sport in the right way
because they not only have the institutional knowledge, they did
it at a time where it wasn't particularly sexy, and
so they understand and the way that they report is
(45:52):
much more informed than a lot of the media who
just parachuting cover was hot at the moment and then
they out again. So in general, I would approach it
as finding the people who have just done it and
been there and grind it.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeah, I agree along those lines. Lachina Robinson, I fo
thank you China.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
You yes, I.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Don't know a conversation I've had with her that hasn't
been about women's basketball since I met her. It's like
oozes from her pores. And she's a great follow on
social media. Monica mc nutt is just a talent and
star at ESPN and she covers it all but just
her perspective on women's basketball in particular. And then Calie
lost in Freeman. She's now at the Las Vegas Review
(46:37):
Journal covering the Aces, and she's just really bright reporter
there and I'm excited to just see what she covers
as the season winds down. And I just got to
reiterate a touch more Megan and Sue just plug the
home team. You mentioned them earlier, But I'm excited. It's
really cool to work on a show where you see
an audience that really respects the sports that women play.
(46:59):
And I'm excited to like create content for an audience
that just respects us so which feels like the bare minimum,
but I know your audience is going to fall into
that bucket as well of just being able to create
a community for ourselves as women's sports fans and supporters.
And I know the sky's the limit. Like just the
growth we've seen in the past year separate of Caitlin
(47:22):
and Angel, Like, there's just been so much happening. I'm
excited for what next year looks like as well. And
twenty twenty eight, as we mentioned with the Olympics.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Yeah, and I mentioned two more people I just thought of, Wow,
Jasmine was talking Lindsey d Arcangelo and I hope I'm
saying her name right, but I follow her on Twitter.
She's a fantastic women's sports writer, m a vocal who
has been writing about women's basketball.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Forever at ESPN. She is great.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
So like, there's a lot of really good sports writers
out there who cover women's sports.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
In the way that it deserves to be covered. So
those are two I just want.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
To mention, Beautiful, be sure to include all of their
information in the show notes and find them eagerly. And
where can we stay connected with you? We want to
stay connected to any new projects that you have coming
up and all of the new things that are happening.
So where can we find you both online and any
social media handles? You'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I'm Jazzadelphia Onesie, you know, from Philly Jazzadelphia on all platforms.
That's also my Gmail if you want to drop me
a note. TikTok is where I'm most engaging now.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
So are you on TikTok? I'm a TikTok. I'm trying
to all right, let me follow. I just love that TikTok.
I've never posted one.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Actually I just did one on favorite Olympic Moments. But yeah, Jazzadelphia.
I love a DM. Love to support and encourage people
who want to work in the space, specifically being producers,
don't hesitate to reach.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Out on social media.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I'm Jamail Hill across all platforms except for TikTok because
somebody I think already had my name, so it's.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Like Jamel Hill six seven two three four. I'm working
on this.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
In terms of projects, as I mentioned, I'm a producer
on Simmo Rising, which is the documentaries that is currently
out on.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Netflix, so please watch that.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
Also writing a children's book that'll be out in February.
I also have a new podcast that's starting in mid
October called Politics, which is about sports, politics and culture,
and so I'm really excited about that. iHeart as the platform,
but you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.
So hope to have some of these conversations that we
talked about on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Today also on politics.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
So I did it particularly to annoy the people who
said sports and politics don't mix. So I made sure
I mixed them and mixed it in the title so
that they can just completely go into a dizzy about
all of this.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Love that definitely would be on the lookout for that
and definitely will include all of these things that you've
shared in our show notes as well. Thank y'all so
much for spending some time with me today. I really
really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
Thank you, doctor Joy, Thank you doctor Joy, Thank you
doctor Drey. I can listen to you read a phone book.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
You're well, so soothing, and call me if I had
your number, literally before I went to sleep, I would
call you and be like.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Just say something and just in.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
The alphabet right, just talk on this ease right onto
a mellow sleeve.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
You have such a dreadful voice. I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Well, thank you, thank you. I'm so glad Jasmine and
Jamil were able to join me for this conversation to
learn more about them and their work. Be sure to
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash Session three seventy four, and don't forget to text
two of your girls right now and tell them to
check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist
(50:29):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
(50:52):
produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for Session three seventy four the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hey everyone, I'm Jasmine Ellis.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
And I'm Jamel Hill, and.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
We're on the Therapy for Black Girls podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
We're in session today unpacking our careers as black women
in sports media.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Athletes like Angel Reese and Shiceri Richardson have so brilliantly
led women's sports into the national spotlight, but with this
has come lots of negative attention and straight up negligent
media coverage of these athletes and their sports. I wanted
to hear from black women's sports journalists, both in front
of and behind the camera, to explore what's needed to
correct some of these biased narratives. Joining me today for
(01:51):
this Black Women in Sports Media Roundtable are supervising producer
Jasmine Ellis and Emmy Award winning journalist Jamel Hill. Husband
has worked on shows such as Sue Bird and Meghan Rapinos,
A Touch More Speak Easy for CNN Plus and ESPN's
SC six, and Jamel, making her return to the TVG podcast,
(02:13):
is a contributing writer for the Atlantic, where she covers
the intersection between sports, race, politics, gender and culture. In
today's roundtable, we discuss the barriers that exist for black
women to enter the sports media space, the importance of
cultural competency when covering women's sports, and why we can't
just stick to sports when talking about female athletes. If
(02:37):
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in
Session or join us in the Sister Circle To talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for joining me today, Jamal and Jazz,
(03:00):
and I'm very excited to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Thank you for having me, for having us.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
We are excited to be here now we are.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
This is Jasus's first time. Been happy to have you back, Jamil,
so excited to chat with you both. I wonder if
you could both get us started by telling me a
little bit about what initially drew you to a career
in sports media.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Well, for me, it was actually my love of newspapers
and for the young folks listening, they used to print
these things that gave you all the information that was
happening in your city.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You know, used to pick them up at the end
of your driveway.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
They're called newspapers since everything is so digital now. And
I was always like the neighborhood tomboy loved watching sports,
love playing sports, and me being interested in what sports
teams in my hometown.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I'm from Detroit.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Originally what they were doing was just a natural extension
of that love. But reading newspapers it gave me that
first curiosity about journalism. And then when I was in
high school, I took a high school journalism class and
the rest, as they say, is history.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I'm one of those weird nerds.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
That decided very early in high school that I wanted
to be not just a journalist, but I specifically wanted
to be a sports journalist. And I realized it was
a bit of an uncommon goal. It's not like I
knew a lot of sports journalists. I certainly read them
in the newspaper, but especially being a young black girl,
that was a very odd career path. Considering my other
(04:27):
friends that talking about being lawyers and all this other stuff,
and they're like, sports journalists wants to be that?
Speaker 3 (04:32):
But that was indeed me.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
So it all started from then and it's really the
only thing that I've ever done. And I told younger
journalists when they talked to me about their career aspirations
and asked me about mine, and say, hey, I'm literally
like the anomaly in this. Most people changed their mind
about what they want to do in their careers four
or five, six times. I just so happened to be
the one that found the thing that I could do
(04:54):
early and it stuck. It probably also helped that I
was very bad at math, and while I prospected science.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wasn't real good at that either.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
So two of those possibilities were already eliminated, which left,
of course, a love of writing, a love of language,
and most importantly, a love of reading. And so all
of those things fed me wanting to do this for
the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
What about you, Yeah, I think like Jamelle, early on,
I knew I wanted to be a journalist. I did
not know or see it possible to be a sports
journalist for a long time. So I grew up loving
the news, loving TV, and loving sports, and those were
just two very separate things for me, and I ultimately
decided to pursue journalism. I wanted to be the next
(05:38):
Katie Kirk, and I got to college and realized I
didn't like being on camera and that decisions were made
behind the scenes, and I became a news producer, and
I spent the first almost ten years of my career
working in local news, working in different cities, covering communities,
(06:00):
and when I got to Philadelphia, my hometown, the stories
that lit me up the most were about the sports teams,
and I had to ask myself, like, why am I
only covering news? Why am I not also covering this
thing that I'm really passionate about? And a big piece
of that was just not seeing myself in the sports
(06:20):
space growing up as a little girl who loved football
and seeing these shots of the control room during big
Super Bowl level sporting events and seeing no one that
looked like me. So I just didn't connect that I
could be in that room, and it took me a
bit of time to realize I could be the first
person in that room. And I decided to pursue sports
(06:42):
media around twenty fifteen, and I've been in that space
ever since.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Other than we have two examples of people deciding very
early on that this is what you wanted to do
and then pursuing it in whatever way you could. So
like both of you, I am sure. I am still
coming off the high of the Olympics of kind of
multiple days were just being tuned into all these activities.
I wonder if there's any particular Paris Olympic moments that
kind of sit out for you that you are holding
(07:09):
on to.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Man, it was so many.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
What the overall banner story is that women carried this country,
I think, and if you want to be even more specific,
black life carried this country when it came to the Olympics.
Because I think I saw some stat that if you
just amassed all the metals that the women want, that
would have been enough to be like fifty eleven countries,
if I may use the incredible black math of fifty eleven,
(07:32):
but I would say probably Simone Bios that really stood
out for me. Now, I do have a personal bias.
I'm a producer on her docuseries that's currently on Netflix,
Simone Rising, so I felt a little more intimately connected
to the story beyond just being a sports fan, having
had to write for the documentary and helped create the
outline for the series. But just in general, I mean,
(07:55):
I thought, coming into the Olympics, she was the greatest
gymnast ever and there was really no real reason that
she had to come to this Olympic. She is considered
despite the fact she's not even thirty. She is considered
a quote older gymnast, and she had nothing left to prove,
and given all of the struggles she had from a
mental health perspective at the last Olympics.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Simobiles didn't owe us anything.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
And yet she was still as excellent and as exemplary
as we've always found her to be, and I think
even more special than her particular performance was seeing how
the torch was passed and how now, all of a sudden,
the faces of gymnastics are black faces are women of
color just in general, which is a very decided switch
(08:39):
that's happened over the course of my lifetime. I grew
up watching Mary lou rettin because I'm seven thousand years old,
and to see the transformation of the sport and it
really becomes something that you've seen little black girls really
attach themselves to and drive and become the faces of
the sport is something when I first started watching gymnastics,
(09:00):
I never thought that I would see. So for me,
it was probably the continued excellence of some own biles
and the US women's gymnastics team in general.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, for me, it's really tough to choose. When I
think about again being young watching sports as a kid,
the Olympics were part of those early memories. So I
love the Olympics. I'm obsessed. My nails were gold like
I were all in. I was all in. I was
all in. But if I have to pick track and field,
(09:29):
I felt like there were so many surprises. I love
the stars you don't expect, and for me, one of
those was Gabby Thomas, who ended up walking away with
three gold medals at the end of track and field competition,
and I got introduced to her more watching Sprint on Netflix,
which was a great doc about some of the track
and field athletes. But I just think the women of
(09:52):
track and field, they so quietly just dominate And it
was really cool to just see someone who a year, oh,
I wasn't that familiar with come into this Olympics and
walk away with three gold medals. Like I just I
feel like not enough has been said about that for
her particular because she's not some own level of household
names of athletes, and then seeing Shakrie win silver and
(10:16):
get a gold. But I think i'm' have to go
with Gabby Thomas just because I like the people you
don't know that you're gonna fall in love with and
walking away from the Games and like, I'm like a
Gabby Thomas stan and yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I love that, love that, So I love that. Y'all
both have talked about like how the Olympics have been
a part of the fabric of sports love for you,
and it does feel like typically around the Olympics because
people are coming from all over the world. There is
a different level of like cultural competency. It feels applied
to when they are writing about and talking about the athletes.
I wonder what we could take from those kinds of
(10:49):
lessons the way we treat the Olympics and kind of
apply to sports more globally, like when it's not Olympic time.
Any thoughts you all have there, I.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Think you hit on something important.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Is that Jazzman talked about how much more familiar she
became with Gabby's story, and that is part of one
of the holes, if you will, of the Olympics, is
that typically for the American audience because Track and Field,
while it is on American television, it certainly is not
dominant in the sports landscape the way that other things are.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Clearly, you know, the NFL.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Is king, and then you have the NBA and baseball
and all these other things. And I know it's a
constant grab for American attention, but I think it does show,
at least in our sports media, that people do hunger
to be introduced to people. Everybody doesn't have to be
a prepackaged, already made star. That sometimes people want to
know great stories and great people. And so it's constantly
(11:41):
a lesson for sports media, but more specifically, the lesson
for sports media is that they have got to stop
with their very short sighted, underinvested coverage in women's sports.
In particular, I've covered two Olympics. I covered the Olympics
in Greece and four I covered the Winter Olympics in Italy,
(12:01):
and it's like we keep having the same conversation throughout
my career, like, oh, we should cover more women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Oh, we should cover more women's sports.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
We're past that conversation, and obviously we've seen with the
rise of the WNBA. Certainly the women's Olympic basketball team
again continued their dominance. But it just goes to show
that it shouldn't take a marquee worldwide global sporting event
every four years to get media outlets to invest in
covering women's sports. The table of us learning and knowing
(12:29):
and really amplifying these athletes should have been set before
the Olympics. And while yeah, certainly somebody like Shakiri or
Simone they enjoy a different level of media attention, but
there were so many stories that we didn't know and
I couldn't help but think, wow, if only we actually
invested in covering women's sports the way that we have
talked about doing, then this would have been in an
(12:52):
even bigger Olympic experience. And I'm hoping with the Olympics
being in Los Angeles in twenty twenty eight, that we
will see a more consistent effort to cover, highlight, amplify
women's sports because the audience is there, the audience has
been there, and the media for a long time has
played this game of chicken or egg. Oh, we'll cover
(13:12):
it if they get big. Then they get big, they
cover it, and then they're back off it again. So
it's like every single time women's sports feels like it's
starting over when there's a new face that people latch onto.
So I'm hoping that something on that end was learned
from this Olympics because the Olympics are in Los Angeles
in twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Agreeing with Jamelle, the media has to do a better
job of being curious and not trying to put people
in existing boxes and going to the story and seeking
out the story. I think the last five years there's
been more of that, more curiosity, more wanting to understand
(13:51):
the choices that specifically black female athletes are making. And Okay,
why is my Moore retiring? What's the story here?
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
This is crazy, you know, Like when you actually start
to pull back the layers of what's going on in
these women's lives and who they are as people, there's
so much there. And I think as sports fans we
also have to bring that to everything we watch and
be curious and not fall into the same traps. That
can sometimes be really easy because the media might lean
(14:23):
into certain tropes about what you need to look like,
or how an athlete has to be built, or the
way things have always been done. So I just think
media and fans if we just sit in our curiosity.
For me, going back to Gabby Thomas, I'm like, Okay,
this woman went to Harvard. You have my attention, Like,
what's going on here? I want to know more. Obviously,
(14:44):
I would think she has a lot of options in
the types of life she wants to lead for herself,
and she's choosing track and field. So I'm going to
pay attention to this choice that she's made, and i
want to see how well she can compete. So I'm
also hopeful that la literally in our backyard will give
us more time in the American sports media to really
(15:06):
sit with our stories and dig deeper on who people
are and what helped them get to where they are
as athletes.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
And if I can piggyback off what Jasmine said the
other thing, and I think, especially in the last year,
this has been very obvious.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I won't say we.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Because I know, and I know Jasmine knows, but some
of my fellow media members need to learn how to
talk about women's sports because the one thing that bothers
me so much, and I'm gonna be real a lot
of it as men, okay, is that they are able
to come into a women's sports space and brag about
how much they don't know, and that be like, well,
(15:45):
I've never heard of this person, even though it's like
they're literally the best at what they do. How have
you never heard of this person? And if you have,
how are you so ignorantly confident to say that to
an audience you're supposed to be serving because part of
our job as journalists is to things in the context,
and not that everybody who has a MICA as a journalist,
because that is clearly not true. But if you are
(16:05):
someone who has an audience, it is your responsibility to
come to the conversation with a base level of information
or informed in some way. And that's something that female
journalists and women in sports media don't get to do.
I can never sit on anybody's NFL set and say, oh,
this Josh Allen got Man, never heard of him, but
he seems great. But they do that all the time
(16:26):
with women's sports, and so I think the media needs
to not only cover women's sports better, they need to
grow up in how they cover women's sports as well.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Jamel, when you were here before, and we've had countless
conversations on the podcast just about how many women have
been kept out of sports right because the assumption was that, like,
could you really know football? And like how big of
a fan can you really be? When it's clear that
you and your colleagues go above and beyond to be
well versed, and it feels like just regular sexism that
(16:55):
like men can very easily enter women's sports spaces even
though they do not understand what's going on, Like, yes,
you may understand the mechanics of what's happening in basketball,
but they are not thoroughly invested in like the lives
and like the stories of the athletes in the ways
that you all have to be when you were reporting
on something like football or men's basketball.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah, or they don't just understand the culture.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
That's why that whole just complete conversation about WNBA players
being jealous, just literally there was one conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
That set me on fire every time it happened.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
It was that because they didn't understand the culture of
the league that they were very loudly talking about every
single day. And when I first came a professional journalist
in nineteen ninety seven, I spent the first two years
covering primarily women's sports, and one of those was the WNBA,
so I actually covered the league and covered a team,
(17:48):
So there was a base level of institutional knowledge that
I had, and I covered women's basketball and the WNBA
on and off throughout my career, but just never as
intensity as I did at the start.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
There's a base.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Level of institutional knowledge that you need to know about
the things that you're talking about. And it is just
very bothersome to me that it's not required of men
to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
They're just allowed to be ignorant.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I mean, I had the feeling and hearing some of
these conversations that have taken place around the WNBA and
Caitlin Clark and the players kind of how I feel
when I turned into news networks and they talk about
black people and everybody on the panel is white.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I'm like, I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm not, Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
These are the experts got it, and so it was
very similar, and they didn't seem particularly interested in learning
that institutional knowledge. So I'm hoping that when twenty twenty
eight comes around, these lessons won't be quite as painful,
but they have time to study up, as Jasmine said,
because there's going to be no excuse to have that
(18:46):
kind of lack of depth when you're before an American audience.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Can I just say a personal story? I realize now
I ended up working in local journalism before transitioning to sports.
But I tried to get sports internships in college and
I was met with a binder that I had to
photo id male athletes from every sport, And you know,
I didn't know golf, I didn't know who had won
the PGA the year before, and I didn't get that
(19:13):
internship at a network that I won't call out. And
then I can't tell you how many sports knowledge tests
I've had to have starting out to get my foot
in the door at different networks or interviews that I've
had to sit down for, and the first question is
so you like sports? Like I'm here interviewing HR has
already got me this far. Why are we starting with
(19:33):
questioning whether I like sports? Or why do I like sports?
So maybe for men we should bring back some sports
knowledge tests or I like that.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
And I'm so glad you brought that up because I
had totally forgot about that. I had to take one
too for an internship as well.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
And I don't think there were any women in the
photo book. I don't remember any female athletes.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I don't either, there was none. There was no women
in the photo book.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It was basically like learning about like you said, they
asked you, like, all right, who has the most home
runs in Major League Baseball history?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like all of the stuff that you were required to know.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
And I'm not saying that that's not important, but I
did think it was strange.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
That I had to do that.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
And trust me, when I was a beat writer on
the Grind, the guys that I covered, they've had a
certain knowledge and access to sports that women have not
necessarily had throughout our lifetimes. But it would amaze me
often how people just assume that, just because they're men,
that they knew certain things. And then in private conversations,
I was like, oh, oh, so they're just as dumb
(20:31):
as like some of these other people out here when
it comes to sports. But there's an assumption, Oh, he's
a dude, he clearly understands everything about football.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Trust me, he does not. I can tell you that
is not the case.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
I remember someone said that you have to get unbusy
to get busy, like the more relaxed you are. We
saw what happened with the pandemic. More people were getting
pregnant one much to do. So, like you like on vacations,
your lobido may be higher.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
So of course you can't go on a vacation every
two weeks. But what can you do to just slow down?
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I mean, you really can't even feel your sex strive
if you're stressed out and you're always running around. So
just slowing down more to be in tune to your desires.
I know, for me, if I'm too busy, I can
forget to eat, right. It's not that I don't get hungry,
I just couldn't even pay attention to the fact that
I need to eat. And so I think it's a
(21:30):
similar thing with sex. If you're always on the go,
always working, always checking your emails, your body just is
not going to be prioritizing pleasure.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So j Justleen, I wonder if you could talk to
us about how some idea or something that we are
curious about, as you mentioned, how does that get from
like just an idea to an actual something that we
see on our TV screen or on a streaming platform,
Like what is your role as the producer in shaping
what we eventually see?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, I think the first step of that is pitching
to your talent like Jamelle, who I've had the pleasure
of working with a couple of times and coming to
her and so let's say we're covering the Olympics, and
let's talk about Simone in this way, And it really
starts with us having a dialogue about Okay, everyone's going
to have this conversation about her, but the conversation we
(22:29):
want to have is what And it's really just thinking
about For me, I go back to I always think
about my mom watching My mom's a sports fan, what's
the thing that is going to hook her and make
her feel engaged? Or my friends who are sports fans,
so always thinking about who is this for? And I'm
always thinking about all those examples are black women. So
(22:49):
I'm thinking about my friends who are sports fans and
like creating a conversation that interests and engages them, And
isn't just the headline, the surf level, the checking the
box on a topic. It's really getting into the weeds
of something that looking at the Olympics was and doing
(23:10):
that in a way knowing the way the internet works
that it could be online forever as a way to
archive and commemorate these moments in sports. And if working
with someone like Jamel, having a black woman have that conversation,
how can we do that in a really smart, engaging,
entertaining way. So it's a long way of saying it
(23:30):
all starts with conversation and thinking about who are you
having that conversation for, and always keeping that center as
you continue to produce, you want to deliver something for
your core audience.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And Jimmy, you've already kind of referenced this piece, but
pretty early in this current WNBA season, you wrote a
piece called the One Downside of Gender Equality in Sports
where you reference this conversation that obviously had you very heated,
and so I'm curious to hear you talk more and
you've already shared some, but to talk more about how
the detachment that some of the people who are covering
women's sports has, how does that impact the integrity and
(24:06):
the quality of the coverage that we actually get, and
what do they need to do better.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I think one thing that was very beneficial for me
was starting my journalism journey as a newspaper reporter. And
when I came out of college, I mean, you picked one.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Or two paths.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Either you were a print or you were broadcast right,
and now you're pretty much the utility player journalists where
you have to be able to write and produce and
be on air and podcasts and so many different types
of skill sets.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
But for me it was newspapers and so covering the
team and covering a beat.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
That means that when you write something in the newspaper
the very next day, you usually have to face the
people you wrote about, and I think that is a
way that keeps you responsible as a journalist. It puts
you in the position where you have to make sure
what you have written and what you have said is
tight because these people who may not like what you
(24:58):
have written and said are going to force you to
defend that. And So because of those personal interactions with athletes,
I think it taught me that I can be critical
and respectful at the same time, right, And so when
I had my television career, I always kept that in mind, like, eventually,
I may see this person, okay, and what's the conversation
(25:19):
going to be like if I get a little too
reckless with my mouth talking about them on TV? And
so what has really dramatically changed is that I watch
sports television now and a lot of people in the
media have no problem taking off on somebody in a
very personal way. It's one thing to give you criticize
what they do because that's just open to criticism, that's
(25:40):
part of being a professional athlete. But when they start
taking it real personal and then next thing you know
is some escalating fight back and forth between a media
person and the athlete. That's when I see how that
can get lost. Is the longer you're on TV and
the more you're in the studio, the further you are
removed from the people that you're talking about. And because
(26:00):
of that gap and that distance, that can lead to
sometimes some of these conversations that frankly are really low
hanging fruit that don't serve anybody, and certainly don't serve
the audience. And so when I wrote that piece, I
wrote it from a place of somebody who talks to
WNBA players, who again has the institutional knowledge of having
(26:22):
covered the league, who understands the culture that is going
on there, and also the additional layer of what it's
like to be a black woman in sports, and especially
given the way that this league is dominated by black
women and some of the narratives and tropes about black women,
understanding how that part of this was playing into how
(26:44):
people were absorbing this moment where the WNBA is experienced
a super nova of popularity centered on an athlete that,
through no fault of her own, and kate Ln Clark,
has become quite polarizing, and however, was bringing their own
things to the table and not understanding that the people
(27:04):
who are most going to pay the price for how
Caitlin Clark turned into a culture war were black women,
and so being a part of those conversations, being able
to frame those conversations is the reason why I wanted
to be a journalist. Certainly, when I first started off
in my career, it was about the results. It was
about oh, covering cool sporting event X, it was about oh,
(27:25):
seeing this championship game, seeing this person's athletic legacy being
built right before my very eyes. Historically, and those are
all great things, but as sports has become even more
deeply embedded into our culture and frankly been at the
center of some very interesting culture wars, to me, writing
about the messy intersections of sports, race, gender, politics, and
(27:47):
culture is the place to be in our current and
foreseeable sports conversations, to be honest, and so for me,
like that's the important component of this is at the
end of the day, twenty years from now, thirty years
from now, forty years from now, or once i'm dust,
I want people to be able to look back at
my work and say, I understand what was happening in
(28:09):
this moment. And so there's a certain responsibility that we
have to take as journalists that we're framing moments that
people will look back on trying to understand and so
what are we saying about the framing And it's our
responsibility to get that framing as right as we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So I feel like I only really see black women
take care in that kind of way, especially when they
are covering black women athletes, right, And so I'm wondering, like,
is this something that you've developed just because this is
your particular lens or is this something that journalists are
really supposed to be doing to pay attention? And I'm
thinking of it, of course as a psychologist. This is
(28:45):
a mental health podcast, thinking about the mental health impact
that some of the stories I've seen can have on
some of these women, especially because they're so young, right,
I think we look at them and like they're superhuman
in lots of ways and very athletic, and so I
think it's lost how young and like the backgrounds that
they sometimes come from, that these stories could impact their
(29:06):
mental health and I think in some negative ways.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, I mean, it is.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
A slippery slope as a journalist because part of the
nature of what you do is to disrupt. That disruption
can have a myriad of effects, and you are supposed
to be a truth seeker and a truth teller, and
you constantly have to weigh how you're exposing or how
you're presenting that truth. And so like Simon Biles, I
(29:31):
think during the Olympics, she said, how about not asking
athletes as soon.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
As they've won? So what's next?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Right, She's barely had to have to process what just happened,
and we're like, so not what.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I understand why she said that, and what she said
was totally reasonable. The problem is you don't get to talk.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
To Simone Biles every other day. I wish I could
call her and say, like three weeks later, Ao, Simone,
what you got going on next? But we don't get
to do that because Simone is not available.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
So there are these things you try to be mindful of.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
And I have learned athletes, these are real people, and
I don't want to thinkify them. But at the same time,
I think there has to be some room for me
to do my job, and sometimes part of that job
it comes with criticism.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But you can do that in a way.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
That is both earnest and truthful without necessarily being harmful
and disrespectful. So I feel like that there is room
for that because yeah, I mean, especially now in this
current climate of sports. Listen, when I first started covering sports,
nobody talked about mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Nobody. It was if an athlete didn't perform, they're soft.
I mean, you could take off on athletes and ways.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
That were considered to be just part of the culture
and how you talked about sports. But now as they
have become more vulnerable and they have become more comfortable
exposing the fact that, like, hey, I don't have everything together.
You guys might see all these things I've accomplished, you
might see me leading this great, flashy, rich lifestyle, but
deep down, I'm in trouble. I think as they have
(31:02):
let us in more on what it's like for them,
I think it has informed how we report on them
and how we talk about them. And so it's something
that we now keep in mind, even though it happens
from time to time, the culture of like calling an
athlete soft and all these other things, I don't think
it's as bad from a journalistic standpoint as it used
(31:23):
to be, because I think we do realize that a
lot of these players, especially if they have the success
at a young age that you were talking about, you know,
like Sha Carrie Richardson is a perfect example. She went
through a lot, and He's why her even being in
this Olympics was just a reward in itself, and seeing
her go through that journey and go through it so publicly,
(31:44):
it informs how you speak about her.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
At least it does for me.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
I can't speak for everybody, So I think as we
continue to have these more really candid conversations about mental
health and sports, it helps make us better as journalists.
It's kind of like comedians learning that the jokes they
told old in nineteen eighty eight don't fly as well
in twenty twenty four. It's like part of your job
is to actually evolve with the thing that you're talking
(32:07):
about and covering.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Very good points more from our conversation after the break
and Jess when of course, as the producer behind a
lot of these shows, right like, that's a lot of
what you are doing is making sure that the talent
is prepared and so you know, one of your newest
(32:29):
ventures is working with Sue Bird and Meghan Rappino on
their new show A Touch More. Can you talk about
what kinds of conversations you're having with them and maybe
even other holes and executives about like how to cover
these stories in a culturally sensitive and responsive way, but
also in a more holistic way.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, I think I haven't had an experience ever like
working with Meghan and Sue because they are women who
have been the story. There are also women who are
very intentional about representing and including all types of women.
So the way that they approach a conversation is just
unlike anything I've experienced because a lot of the work
(33:08):
that you might have to do with someone who's not
an athlete, who hasn't had high pressure playing in a
championship or an Olympics, they have it. So there's not
a lot that I have to prepare them for In
terms of that perspective. It's more so just bringing awareness
of conversations that are happening and encouraging them to join
(33:28):
that conversation and add that perspective. But I think with
all hosts that I'm working with, I'm always just trying
to pull back a curtain for their fans on how
they're thinking. I think Jamelle might agree with this is
sometimes she doesn't realize she has an opinion that people
(33:49):
would find interesting until I'm like, that's really interesting, Like
you should say that out loud on TV, or she's
just being Jammelle and has an idea and thinks it's
funny and like, you know, that's just some thing for
our production meeting. But I'm like, no, that's a topic
for the show. So it's really just kind of like
I'm playing the part of the fan at home watching
or listening to a show and guiding hosts to have
(34:14):
the conversations that their fans would want to hear. That's
why I love my job. I just get to be
a fan and ask for really cool, interesting conversations. And
that's my pitch for more people, more black women, to
do this work of producing, because that's one of the
only ways that we're going to get the stories we
care about if we're in the room asking for those
(34:36):
stories to be told, asking for people. You have to
talk about this. My group chat is on fire about
this conversation. We have to talk about it on our show.
So it's really the best job. Second maybe to Jim,
I don't know. I mean I think some days you
might have me be Jazz no hair and makeup.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
So I want to talk a little bit more about
the show that you both worked on, which was SC
six and I would love to hear a little bit
more about how that came together and what it was
like to collaborate with one another. We know, when you're
talking about black women athletes in particular, like you can't
really just stick to sports. There is this context that
these stories exist within. So tell us a little bit
about how that show came to beg and what was
(35:20):
it like to collaborate there.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Well before the Jasmin worked together on the SC six,
Jasmine was an unofficial producer of my previous show, His
and Hers with my former co host, Michael Smith, and
so Jasmin will always be hitting me up or walking
past our cubicle like, oh, when y'all did that, that
was really great, or like, are y'all going to do
this or that or whatever. So she was already producing
us without having the official title.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Before that ever happened.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Because I like to think when we did television, we
did it in a way that was unapologetically black, sometimes
so black that I was like, they really let us
do that on television, no doubt. And so when it
came time for us to create the team of the
SC six, Jasmine was already a senior Sports Center producer
(36:07):
at the time working on the six PM Sports Center
with the previous talent, and just given the fact that
we already had a relationship outside of the show, and
because of her being our unofficial producer on His and Hers,
it was just like such a natural fit. And this
is no disrespect to the producers that I've worked with,
because I've worked with some good ones, work with some
bad ones too, but work with some good ones.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It is a different feeling as a black talent when you.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Have a lead black producer that you don't have to
explain yourself to all the time or explain the whole
two Americas, like.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I know the rest of y'all talking about it
this way.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
But this is how black people are talking about it,
and this is why that conversation, why this story, why
the way we frame this story deserves to be framed
that way.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And so that part for me was just a huge relief.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Because it was just like, Okay, finally I have a
producer that kind of it's me. That doesn't mean that
you're gonna agree on everything, because sometimes you may see
things different way, but there's a base level of understanding
and like mindedness that made the process of putting together
the SC six so much easier. Just to give a
small example, I mean, I think Jazmine would agree with
(37:15):
me on this. One of the greatest things we ever
pulled off was making the Sports Center theme song, the
Different World intro all right, and then we got the
original cahas. The only people who were missing, I think
were Kadeem Harnessing and Jazzmin God, but that's because they
were actually filming something together at the time.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
But we had everybody else.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
We had Rong, we had we had everybody simbad, we
had everybody right, and we used ESPN talent as well,
And I don't think we had another producer who didn't
get the cultural significance of that, and the cultural significance
of that being on Sports Center never would have got it.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
It never would have got done.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And so that was part of the synergy of our
working relationship is that Jasmine was always down to try
something new or try something different or us to already
amplify the cultural connection that we already had and put
that on a mainstream platform, legacy brand like Sports Center,
And so it made the working experience really remarkable. And
(38:17):
I realized after the fact I knew it during but
I think it was really more clear after the fact
just how rare that is at the network television level like.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
ESPN, Like you're just not going to get that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
So that's part of how we fostered such a good
working relationship that coincided obviously with the friendship as well.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
I'm sure that both of you are also paying attention
to just the media landscape right now. We know that
every day it feels like there's another announcement about layoffs
and media spaces. What kinds of things would you be
able to share with maybe other colleagues or people who
are interested in the field about like how to keep
your confidence in a sports media landscape.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I have had to go on a journey of preserving
my confidence the last couple of years. I had a
daughter two years ago and just coming out of maternity leave,
I really struggled to find my space back in sports media,
as you mentioned, in the wake of everything that was changing,
(39:14):
and so for me, one of the biggest parts of
that was leaning on my network, whether it was people
I worked with before, like Jamel, or people who were
just peers in the industry who I admire respect. You know,
if I'm interviewing for a gig and just texting my
friends to like gass me up about something or needing
(39:37):
to just talk through an idea or a topic. I've
dealt with layoffs, I've dealt with looking for work or
not getting the job, but just always coming back to
the people who can remind you who you are, what
you've done, what you can do is just hugely important
because the networks won't do that. The network executives will
(40:01):
not do that. They will make you feel replaceable, and
you have to go back to the people who you've
worked with, who you can vouch for your work, or
the people who have seen and enjoyed your work. And
then just talking to yourself, gassing yourself up like a
ray on, insecure in the mirror, in the mirror, but yeah,
because every day you're going to wake up, something's going
(40:23):
to be on Hollywood Reporter, somebody's going to be cutting something.
You just have to stay confident and the type of
person you are, the type of work you want to do,
and don't waver from that in the noise of all
of the uncertainty in this business.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Then you also got to be able to pivot.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Twenty twenty three was professionally one of my more volatile years,
if not maybe the most volatile year that I've ever had.
I left a major company like Spotify and the podcast industry,
as I'm sure you know that your joy drastically changed
from when I first got in it in twenty nine eighteen.
(41:01):
And you know, coinciding I live in LA with the
strike that was happening in Hollywood is like that strike
trickled down to basically everything, So there was this huge
amount of fear and retraction that was happening across all
media landscapes. Really, I mean, I had to do some
career soul searching, not in the sense of like me
not wanting to do this. I knew I still wanted
to do this. I knew there still was a place
(41:22):
for me to do this, but what that would look like.
I did not have an idea. And one thing that
I have learned since leaving ESPN at twenty eighteen is
you really have to stay nimble, and I've been able
to do that in terms of understanding the root of
what I do and what I'm good at is storytelling, interviewing,
building trust with sources, like the fundamental journalism things I'm
(41:45):
good at that is never going to change, right, So
I tell this to younger journalists all the time, is
that the basics of the job haven't changed since the
Stone Tablet. Like literally, people are going to need information,
They're going to need competent people to do tell them
and gather this information. That is always going to be
the case. The only thing that's really changing constantly and
(42:05):
rapidly is the method. Again, stone tablet yesterday, Today it's TikTok,
it's threads, it's all these other different forms YouTube.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
That's what it is today.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
That's just method though, And so me and Ja we're
more or less sort of independent contractors with mercenaries, so
we're working for multiple different outlets, and even though part
of that can be scary, it also has given me
the most peace I've had in my career because everybody
I choose to work with now are people I want
to work with, not people I have to work with,
(42:37):
and that makes a very big difference with how I
approach the job. So even when I hit those potholes
or that volatility, being able to lean into the autonomy
of what I'm doing is helpful and also it teaches you,
in this phase in my career, how to take bigger
swings or bigger bets on myself because I came up
(42:58):
through legacy media and worked for a very true d'itional
corporations and companies.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
That was something I.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Didn't really understand until I left ESPN, and I had
to think about it one day, like why would I
work harder for ESPN than I will for myself?
Speaker 3 (43:13):
That probably isn't going to happen.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
And so a lot of times what convinces us not
to do things is because we're worried about certain fears.
Understanding that most of us, especially black women, have outperformed
at every job we have ever been on and that
is not going to change. So I had to really
lean into being my own best advocate and really lean
into betting on myself. So that would be my advice
(43:37):
to the young people who still want to do that,
is like, you got to be okay with taking some
big swings, and even if you miss, I still think
it's going to work out for you because you're either
going to learn something or it's going to bring you
to another place that's closer to the thing that you
want to do. The business is volatile. I've been hearing
this for nearly thirty years I've been in this business.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
It's always been volatile.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
That part is also not going to change if you
really want to do this work. And so what I
would just say is just stay the course and continue
to get better. Invest in being the best version of
whatever journalists you want to become, and that's going to
always pay off. The other things will fall into place.
They'll take care of themselves when that preparation meets opportunity
(44:20):
moment happens. You want to make sure that you are
at the top of your game when it does. Love that.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
So what suggestions do y'all have for us for who
to be paying attention to in terms of really good
women's sports coverage right now? So I love the stuff
that they're doing at a touch more Jamelle, of course
you're always a favorite, But who else do you want
to put on the radar that's doing really good sports coverage.
Speaker 4 (44:41):
One of our former colleagues, Tarika Foster Brasby, she's been
covering women's basketball for a while and she is one
of the best voices, best media personalities when it comes
to that.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
There are certain outlets I think that do really well.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
The athletic is something like I read, you know, pretty constantly.
I think now I sort of pay attention to the
people who have been doing the work for a long
time who just haven't gotten the boost and the amplification
to do that work.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Aerial Chambers is.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Another one who is like a really good writer and
emerging young journalists voice. When it comes to again, women's basketball,
I would say women's sports just in general, So at
this point what people should do, especially as there are
some of these women's sports that they're learning about and
still in that sort of let me educate and bring
myself up to speed, pay more attention to the people
(45:31):
who've been covering it a long time, particularly when it
was no there was no benefit in doing it. Those
are the people who are going to be covering the lead,
the teams, the players, the sport in the right way
because they not only have the institutional knowledge, they did
it at a time where it wasn't particularly sexy, and
so they understand and the way that they report is
(45:52):
much more informed than a lot of the media who
just parachuting cover was hot at the moment and then
they out again. So in general, I would approach it
as finding the people who have just done it and
been there and grind it.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeah, I agree along those lines. Lachina Robinson, I fo
thank you China.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
You yes, I.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Don't know a conversation I've had with her that hasn't
been about women's basketball since I met her. It's like
oozes from her pores. And she's a great follow on
social media. Monica mc nutt is just a talent and
star at ESPN and she covers it all but just
her perspective on women's basketball in particular. And then Calie
lost in Freeman. She's now at the Las Vegas Review
(46:37):
Journal covering the Aces, and she's just really bright reporter
there and I'm excited to just see what she covers
as the season winds down. And I just got to
reiterate a touch more Megan and Sue just plug the
home team. You mentioned them earlier, But I'm excited. It's
really cool to work on a show where you see
an audience that really respects the sports that women play.
(46:59):
And I'm excited to like create content for an audience
that just respects us so which feels like the bare minimum,
but I know your audience is going to fall into
that bucket as well of just being able to create
a community for ourselves as women's sports fans and supporters.
And I know the sky's the limit. Like just the
growth we've seen in the past year separate of Caitlin
(47:22):
and Angel, Like, there's just been so much happening. I'm
excited for what next year looks like as well. And
twenty twenty eight, as we mentioned with the Olympics.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
Yeah, and I mentioned two more people I just thought of, Wow,
Jasmine was talking Lindsey d Arcangelo and I hope I'm
saying her name right, but I follow her on Twitter.
She's a fantastic women's sports writer, m a vocal who
has been writing about women's basketball.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Forever at ESPN. She is great.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
So like, there's a lot of really good sports writers
out there who cover women's sports.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
In the way that it deserves to be covered. So
those are two I just want.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
To mention, Beautiful, be sure to include all of their
information in the show notes and find them eagerly. And
where can we stay connected with you? We want to
stay connected to any new projects that you have coming
up and all of the new things that are happening.
So where can we find you both online and any
social media handles? You'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I'm Jazzadelphia Onesie, you know, from Philly Jazzadelphia on all platforms.
That's also my Gmail if you want to drop me
a note. TikTok is where I'm most engaging now.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
So are you on TikTok? I'm a TikTok. I'm trying
to all right, let me follow. I just love that TikTok.
I've never posted one.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Actually I just did one on favorite Olympic Moments. But yeah, Jazzadelphia.
I love a DM. Love to support and encourage people
who want to work in the space, specifically being producers,
don't hesitate to reach.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Out on social media.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I'm Jamail Hill across all platforms except for TikTok because
somebody I think already had my name, so it's.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Like Jamel Hill six seven two three four. I'm working
on this.
Speaker 4 (48:51):
In terms of projects, as I mentioned, I'm a producer
on Simmo Rising, which is the documentaries that is currently
out on.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Netflix, so please watch that.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
Also writing a children's book that'll be out in February.
I also have a new podcast that's starting in mid
October called Politics, which is about sports, politics and culture,
and so I'm really excited about that. iHeart as the platform,
but you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.
So hope to have some of these conversations that we
talked about on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Today also on politics.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
So I did it particularly to annoy the people who
said sports and politics don't mix. So I made sure
I mixed them and mixed it in the title so
that they can just completely go into a dizzy about
all of this.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Love that definitely would be on the lookout for that
and definitely will include all of these things that you've
shared in our show notes as well. Thank y'all so
much for spending some time with me today. I really
really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
Thank you, doctor Joy, Thank you doctor Joy, Thank you
doctor Drey. I can listen to you read a phone book.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
You're well, so soothing, and call me if I had
your number, literally before I went to sleep, I would
call you and be like.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
Just say something and just in.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
The alphabet right, just talk on this ease right onto
a mellow sleeve.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
You have such a dreadful voice. I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Well, thank you, thank you. I'm so glad Jasmine and
Jamil were able to join me for this conversation to
learn more about them and their work. Be sure to
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
slash Session three seventy four, and don't forget to text
two of your girls right now and tell them to
check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist
(50:29):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
(50:52):
produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done
by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
with you all real soon. Take good care.
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