March 4, 2026 • 47 mins
The ability to express ourselves through speech remains one of the most important ways we communicate. It’s at the root of how we connect, understand each other, and even how we explore our own identities. From childhood, we learn that what we say and how we’re able to say it can impact how we move through the world. Speech pathologists help those of us who experience challenges in expressing our thoughts and processing language. And as important as this work is, there are still disparities in who receives care.
This week we're excited to welcome Dr. Dawn Ellis, a Speech-Language Pathologist, advocate, and educator whose journey led her to a career helping children, families, and communities communicate with confidence. In this conversation, we explore language development, identity, and how communication intersects with mental health, particularly for Black women and families.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. The ability to express
ourselves through speech remains one of the most important ways
(01:17):
we communicate. It's at the root of how we connect,
understand each other, and even how we explore our own identities.
From childhood, we learn that what we say and how
we're able to say it can impact how we move
through the world. Speech pathologists help those of us who
experience challenges in expressing our thoughts in processing language, and
as important as this work is, there are still disparities
(01:39):
in who receives care. A recent study from twenty twenty
four found that black patients are about thirteen percent less
likely to receive speech language pathology services than white patients,
even after accounting for differences in health and demographic factors.
That's why I'm excited to welcome doctor don Ellis. She's
a speech language pathologist, advocate, and educator whose journey led
(02:01):
her to a career helping children, families, and communities communicate
with confidence. In this conversation, we explore language development, identity,
and how communication intersects with mental health, particularly for black
women and families. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share with us on social media using
the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over in
(02:23):
our patreons and talk more about the episode. You can
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Here's our conversation. Hi, doctor Ellis, thank you so much
for joining us today. Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah,
it's a pleasure to chat with you. So can you
start by telling us about your journey in speech and
(02:46):
language pathology and what drew you to this field.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Sure. So when people ask this question, I think about
my Cotilion book that in there, my under my picture
I had listed I wanted to be a child physists.
Not sure what that is. But fast forward to going
to college. I was accepted into cal State Fresno, and
when my parents got there to drop me off, they
(03:11):
said they had their quota of black students. The letter
hadn't reached them yet, and so I could not enroll,
I couldn't stay. And so I'm not sure and I
would tease my mom how this happened. But on the
way home, they stopped at Bakersfail College and they knew
that they had dorms and they had a space. Someone
(03:32):
didn't show up in the dorms, and so they left
me there and they were like, oh, we'll get her
enrolled and all of her aid and everything will transfer
because it was this state school. And so my work
study job was in the handicapped Service center and I
was assigned to the speech language pathologists. Wow. And so
(03:54):
I always say, God makes no mistakes. And so then
I finished my two years they and transfer to cal
State University Northbridge, where I got my bachelor's in Communicative
Sciences and Disorders and then onto Howard University where I
got my master's at my doctorate.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Wow, that is quite a story. I love that it
has come full circle for you. Actually it has been
a field that you have thrived in. So what did
you intend to major in when you were going to college?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I knew I wanted to work with children, and so,
like I said, I don't know what a physiologist was
what I put in that or answered that question, but
probably I was thinking psychology. I was probably thinking child psychology.
But I knew I wanted to work with children. So
at Howard they had a grant from Department of Ed
(04:44):
Office Special ED program, which is another full circle moment
because I later in my career I became one of
the competition managers for that program at Department of Ed.
But it was specializing in zero to five. So that
was when the law had changed, the Individuals with Disabilities
Education Act where it went down to age zero, so
(05:08):
it started from at three to twenty one and the
law had changed. And so what the department event put
out programs which I now know to make sure that
people are trained both what we call pre service, which
is at the university level, and in service, which would
be what you're a professional and getting like continuing education units.
(05:29):
But through my masters, I was trained in pediatrics, so
we had to take twelve more units and have more
clinical hours in that birth to five population.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Got it. And so what does a typical day look
like for you as a special language pathologist.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, so now it's a little different from the work
that I do. But I have a private practice and
I'm also associate director of Technical Assistance Center. So my
private practice, I mainly my caseload is with individuals with
developmental with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So I see some
(06:05):
clients via telehealth and home health. And that home health
the clients can be in their natural home with their
parent or guardian, or they could live in supportive living
like a group home. So I try to focus like
one specific day for doing home health when I'm out
in the community going into the homes to see clients.
(06:26):
And then I have virtual clients, you know via telehealth,
and some clients that I see via telehealth. I also
I do like a hybrid model, so I make sure
that I see them like once a quarter, once a
month in person. So that's pretty much like a typical day.
In between that there's a lot of planning, there's billing,
(06:47):
there's I do service work. So I do a lot
of service work with my national professional organization, so I
may I sit on a committee right now, I'm on
the Committee of Ambassadors with the American Speed, Language and
Hearing Association, and I am the Speech Language Pathologist representative
for the District of Columbia. So in that there's a
(07:08):
lot of work just doing advocacy work. And then I'm
also the associate director of DREAM, which is a national
technical assistance center that supports minority serving institutions, including HBCUs
and tribal colleges to help them write applications and build
capacity to get federal funds to train personnel under the
(07:32):
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Beautiful, You're a very busy woman.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah. I get to do a lot of things that
I love to do and that have just built upon
my experience over the years.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Mm hm. So I feel like I've only i think
historically heard about speech and language pathologists as a part
of like elementary school, but clearly the work that you
do spans much later into life as well. So you've
already talked about working in schools, having a private practice.
What other kinds of career paths might have speech language
pathologies be able to explore.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Sure, And that's a great question. So I think about
my own career path where I started working in schools,
in early intervention, which is in community based settings, going
into home, also at daycares, in hospitals, so that's some
of the places that you can work hospitals, rehabilitation, in
(08:26):
the home. I've been on faculty both at Oklahoma State
University and Galadette University, also adjuncts here in the area
like Howard University of District of Columbia, and also I
worked for my national professional association, the American Speech Language
and Hearing Association, where I worked in their research department
(08:49):
where I was the director and manager of federal funds,
which gave me federal experience, and then working you know,
in federal service for the government. Living here in the
District of Columbia, I had the mindset that I wanted
to work in all of these because there are some
really unique opportunities being here in the nation's capital. So
(09:13):
I wanted to touch all of those and so I
felt like I was successful doing that. But you can
be in academia you can work at the university level
as a faculty member or a clinical educator where you
are supervising students doing like practicum because usually the university
settings have a speech and hearing clinic where scholars or
(09:38):
students get their experience first in the clinic before going
out to like a practicum site. There's just so many
opportunities in different settings that people can work in. I
have friends that are colleagues in private practice that also
work with, say, actors on modification of a dialect for
(10:00):
a role in a movie. There are some that work
in the corporate setting that may want to help people
communicate better. That's a job that's more of an elective.
It's not a deficit, but it's something that corporations may
want to offer as a benefit to people, and just
not to accent or dialect reduction, but also just to
(10:23):
be an overall better and more effective communicator.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So, doctor ellis, what are some of the common speech
and language and communication disorders that we might be both
familiar with, but maybe some that we also aren't familiar with.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, so when we talk about speech, we think of production, articulation,
motor planning, voice fluency. All of those fall under speech
and talk about familiarity versus non familiar One of the
things we like to talk about fluency, which most people
may know as stuttering. We don't like to use that
(10:58):
term because we don't want to label individuals, but mainly
refer to the characteristic of the speech, which is a
disruption in the flow. So we talk about fluency disorders.
When we think of receptive language, what we understand expressive language,
you know what we're able our words or grammar are sentences.
Then there's vocabulary, grammar, and pragmatics, which is more social
(11:22):
communication and how you use the language in a social context,
and then communication overall social communication, we can talk about
alternative and assistive devices, agnitiative and alternative devices. That's part
of communication, so people that may use a device to communicate,
and then cognitive communication, memory and attention, executive function, and
(11:50):
multimodal communication, sign language, people using gestures, body language. Those
are some of the areas that communication could be effective.
Might seek out a speech language pathologist.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, so such a wide variety, right, And I think
when you hear it broken down that way, you realize,
like how many parts there are to speech in communication.
So maybe we just start with like fluency, right, which
you talked about, used to be known as stuttering, but
the more appropriate term now is a fluency concern. When
you talk about fluency, is this typically a physiological kind
(12:23):
of concern? Is it more social emotional? Like? What is
typically the cause of a fluency concern? Yeah, it can be.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
All of the above or parts of that. So I
think about when we look at children. Children can in
the developmental stages of language, especially at ages like three
and four, their receptive language always exceeds expressive. So children
are going to understand more than they're able to get out.
(12:51):
And so when they're trying to get all their thoughts
together and express that, and sometimes they know what they
want to say, but they don't don't have the words,
that can't put it into words, and that might sound
disfluent to a parent. So often we get oh, my
child's stuttering, you know. So first the thing is like, okay,
let's you know, we counsel parents, like we want to
(13:13):
talk about the characteristics and not label it. You don't
want to call attention to it because then that makes
the child self conscious about it, and you know, let's
give it time for maturation, for development, and you may
see those disfluencies go away. You don't be a good
model yourself is slowing down your speech and helping them
(13:37):
find the words by just modeling those words, not scolding
or shaming someone about not being able to get their
words out. But then we can see where there could
be an issue as time develops an age and a
person may still have those disfluencies. Sometimes it could be
(13:58):
related to trauma like adverse childhood experiences. Not all the time,
but it can be you know, something comes up, you
saw something, or you get in a situation where you
feel stressed. So therefore, and it could be a stressful environment.
And then it develops more into a pattern, and then
(14:19):
we see adults that as you get older, the individual
has maintained those patterns and may need to seek therapy
for just ways to modify and to control that. And
sometimes that also involves counseling, especially if there is some
trauma identify with how a person may have begun to
(14:43):
have some disfluencies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
More from our conversation after the break, are there particular
concerns that you feel like are often misdiagnosed or overlooked,
especially in the black community. When we're thinking about Speacian
language and communication disorders.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, just acceptance awareness. So under a lot of times
people aren't aware of a speech language pathologist, and people
think about speech only, but they don't think about the
language part or the cognitive and how all that works together.
So when we look in the school setting, their research
(15:29):
and you can look like there may be an over
diagnosis or overrepresentation of black children in special led programs.
But also there's some research that suggests that there is
an underidentification of people of color with speech and language disorders,
because when you look at individuals that are incarcerated, often
(15:52):
there is some evidence that there is a disability, whether
it's diagnosed or undiagnosed, that there's something going on there.
So there's two schools of thought there, you know, and
both could be true in different contexts. That's the same time.
But I think just the awareness and the acceptance that
(16:14):
my child may need to get help. And we're talking
about children here, because on the adult side, there are
things that happen like stroke, close head injury, traumatic brain injury,
which then you're in a medical setting where these services
speech OT or PT are presented to you based upon
(16:36):
your needs, but when we're talking about children and youth
sometimes there's acceptance. There's also I think we're coming out
of this. The stigma associated with someone that may have
a disability, that a communication disorder is part of this.
And I was just thinking about yesterday. I was in
(16:58):
New York and I saw Purpose and it was there
some underlying issues in the play about people not being
diagnosed about ural divergence and wanting to keep that hush
hush about what my child may be experiencing. So I
think there's that shame sometimes in that stigma. But the
(17:20):
more that we're aware, the more that there's awareness of
individuals across the board with disabilities, the more acceptance there is,
and the more acceptance there is to get help and
not feel that shame because my child is not perfect,
so I kind of want to keep it hush. And
(17:41):
I saw I was a girl Scout leader and when
my kids were younger, and I would have parents that
would not want to identify and they didn't have to,
that was their choice. But being in the field, it's
like I knew how to deal with that, but other leaders,
when it's not identify, may not and you're taking a
(18:02):
child out like on a camping trip or something like that.
And there are things that could be really helpful if
you knew, and that you can make accommodations for and
make it work. But just hoping that the more awareness
of people with disabilities and you know, including the communication
disorder and the fact that that doesn't mean that something
(18:26):
is wrong or is that you can't fully participate in society,
I think is key.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah, you know. And as you're talking, I'm thinking
about like my two little ones, Like when I would
be filling out paperwork at the pediatrician, I remember questions
around like have they shared their first words? And like
they are all these milestones, and I'm thinking like beyond
like your pediatrician, and maybe if like a teacher or
somebody recognizes, like, hey, there may be some calls for
(18:54):
concern here, like what kinds of things should parents or
caregivers be paying attention to well on the look up
for that there may be something going on that might
require some additional treatment.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
This is a great question too, because I don't have
grandchildren right now, but a lot of my friends are
having aired first grandchild, and I get a lot of
cause about hey, can you come over and observe or
this is going on, and sometimes it starts with the grandparent,
you know, but and I haven't done that throughout my career.
(19:25):
But being aware of what the developmental milestones are, knowing
that a child's development and acquisition of sounds could be
through like age six to eight. So s is a
later developing sound or thch is a later developing sound.
So if they're using an easier sound to produce a
(19:51):
word than you know, rabbit for rabbit, then that's okay,
Like that's okay, They're not expected to produce that sound yet.
So being aware of what like milestones are, especially for sounds,
that's like one of the biggest one. Also not comparing.
We hear this throughout life. Right, she has a cousin
the same age and she is talking so much better,
(20:13):
but then also realizing that she's more repeating things. There
is nothing wrong, but it's just not the same. It's
hard not to compare, but every child is different. So
just knowing what the milestones are, just making sure that
you are asking questions. And in a couple of these scenarios,
(20:37):
teachers have said or daycare like, hey, what does so
and so speech sound like at home? Or how are
they talking at home? Also in two days world, when
we're thinking about children that maybe three four thinking about
COVID babies, you know everybody was isolated so during that time,
(20:58):
and you hear a parents say, oh, she was a
co baby. So not saying that things are delayed, but
we know that when children are around other children, they
begin to pick up things, they begin to communicate on
their level with their peers. So that's another thing. Being
involved in play groups and talking to other parents, not
(21:18):
in a comparison way, but just to get information. But
of course all the things we hear about, continue to
read and expose your child to opportunities in everyday life,
going to the grocery store, talking, playing outside, just natural
things beyond technology and screen time. Not saying that that's bad,
(21:39):
but just early on putting limits on it and knowing
what to do. But it's just more being aware. And
if you do, don't wait, because for a child time
three months seems like half a year or a year
in growth. So if you do have concern, don't wait.
There's child fine in every state, every county which you
(22:02):
can call, and if you don't know where to go,
help to get started with Hey, I have these concerns,
and how do I get started to figure out if
I need to do something further to give my child
the support they need.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Our speech and language pathology is typically covered by insurance.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
So yeah, so that's a good question. So yes, if
there is a disorder, and so that's going to be
the key thing if you go the private route. So
that's why I encourage parents when they do if their
child is under five, to use the resources like child
Fine and Early Start or whatever it's called in your area,
(22:45):
because you're entitled to those services through the school system.
So that's the place that I would always recommend that
people start if your child is diagnosed. And each county,
each state has their own criteria of how they determine eligibility.
So if your child is determined eligible for services and
(23:05):
I'm talking about now speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy for
the birth to five, then you can get those services
through the school system and for zero to two in
the home, so they can come to your home or
community based setting to provide those services. Some parents want
to go private services might be limited through childflying based
(23:29):
upon the eligibility criteria and the percentage that they may
see a delay. We talk about delays in those early
years versus disorders if there is some evidence of hearing
loss of course there and hearing laws we know can
delay language acquisition, the acquisition of sounds. You don't get
(23:49):
the feedback like everybody gets, so you're not really sure
when the sound doesn't sound right. And that's for adults too,
so that would be covered. Of course, there's a whole
process this, but usually when it comes to insurance, there
has to be a delay or disorder identified and whatever
that eligibility looks like for that insurance carrier. M.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So you've already talked a little bit about like the
different dialect we may have because we maybe grow up
in different regions. Right, How do you differentiate the difference
between like a dialect or somebody's like natural way of
speaking versus somebody that's something that's a delay or a deficiency.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, so good question. We talk about delay or disorder.
We also see this in individuals whose primary language may
not be English, so it's important to know sound like
how they're functioning in l one the primary language versus
the secondary language. But also when we're talking about a dialect,
(24:51):
so speaking a second language, is different. But when we're
talking about a dialect, it's important to know what the
features are to know if it's a difference or versus
a disord. So also just because someone doesn't sound like us,
or they move to a different region and they sound different,
does not mean that it's a disorder. And when we're
(25:12):
talking about school age, how is it affecting their academic performance?
That's gonna be really important. So we all know their
Southern dialect. There's New England dialects, there's dialects. I came
from California to Howard. I went to school in a valley,
so I was I had valley speech. That's what they
(25:33):
told me. But also when I was at Northridge, parents
would bring their kids into the clinic wanting this valley
speech worked on and stuff. So that was like I
was a student then, But I do remember that. But
different regions, different areas. Even here in the DMV, you're
gonna hear different what we call prosodic patterns, tone, maybe
(25:58):
even different morphological patterns. We see that in African American English.
There's also Southern White English. There's so many different ones.
Is it affecting your academic performance? Is it affecting your
work performance in some way, and that could be objective,
you know, how your speech is, but it's really up
(26:20):
to how is the listener perceiving and are they perceiving
a difference based upon what they sound like, and are
they really having trouble with understanding or is it just
they may not like the way the person sounds or
it doesn't sound like.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Them mm hmmmmmm. You know, as you're talking a to Ellice,
it reminds me of the importance of having a variety
of practitioners in the field because there's so often a
connection between like what the presentation of a voice sounds like,
in connecting that to like intellect in ways that are
not accurate, and it sounds like that is what you're
speaking to.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, And just because someone has a disfluency let's go
back there, or someone doesn't sound like you, does not
mean that it equates to intellect, you know, And I
think that over time that's what has happened. Sometimes it's
the majority, and the majority wants people to sound like
(27:24):
what they sound like, and so therefore they perceive it
to be People are less educated, and there are studies
where there's unfamiliar listeners and people listen to just a
recording or a voice and they rate maybe their education
level or a number of things. And of course those
(27:44):
that don't sound like the majority or maybe rate it lower.
But when you look at qualifications, they could be higher,
you know. And this is like in a study, but
it's just rating people based upon how they sound as
opposed to to who they are and what they bring
to the table.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Right, So, I wonder if you can talk about how
growing up with a speech or a communication disorder impact
somebody's mental health. I'm thinking things like self worth. You
already mentioned a little bit about anxiety, Like what does
this do for somebody's vision of themselves?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, so it can cause people to feel less than
not comfortable with themselves. They lack confidence. And it could
also be communication disorders, but other disabilities like ADHD. We
talked about disfluencies. It could bring upon anxiety. People that
may have issues with processing or social anxiety and they
(28:45):
go into a room and we all know people stand
up to start to speak and you just freeze. I
know there are some people that may have OCD that
also can bring about some of these disfluencies or or
a lag in their communication, their responsiveness because they're processing,
they're trying to get their thoughts together. That also happens
(29:09):
with we said with people with disfluencies. They need that minute,
or they're in a situation where they are traumatized, there's
people there they may for whatever reason, all of these
things plan to come into play where you're not getting
enough sleep or you're not functioning at your best, and
then you go into a situation and you're like frozen
(29:33):
or you're tired, you're not getting your words together. So
all of those things can come into play for individuals
that may have a communication disorder and just not feeling
real confident or I don't sound like this person, or
people use big vocabulary or words and you may think
my vocabulary is not the same. So therefore I'm not
(29:55):
going to show up as I can because I'm not
measuring up to others that may be in my environment.
And that can be how you think about it, but
that is not always true.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
What might it look like for an adult to work
with a speech in language pathologist, Like is that an option?
Like maybe you didn't realize as a child that there
were these concerns, but you realize it as an adult,
does it make sense to work with a speech in
language pathologists then or is there some different treatment railte.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
At that point? As an adult, it's elective unless you
had like post stroke or we're talking about traumatic brain injury,
Parkinson's dementia, things like that. But yeah, like as an adult,
it would be elective therapy. You know, it would not
I'm not saying it couldn't be approved by insurance, but
(30:46):
this is something later on. So but it's pretty much
going to be elective therapy. And yes, it's finding out
what is it that you want to achieve, What is
it that you feel that you you want to address,
or what responses are you getting from your communication partner
(31:07):
that you feel that you may want to change, And
so looking at it that way, and like I said,
it's elective. So it depends upon the person and some
of that. Like we are not counselors, but we're trained
in some aspects of counseling. You know, usually there's a
counseling course that the program that you have to take
(31:29):
because it is getting at that root and building confidence.
So some of my adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities,
which is different that I work with those that are
able to use some language, we work on confidence and
we go out in the community. We may go to
a place to order practice ordering food or asking questions
(31:50):
in the community and getting them comfortable in the community
around people, and just the feedback that they're getting once
people realize, Okay, this person may not communicate, but they're
here and they're a consumer and I want to help them.
(32:11):
And so what ends up happening is that the adult
with the disability is getting positive feedback and that's building
their confidence to make them want to participate more in
the community and use their communication skills.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
More from our conversation after the break are other strategies
for building confidence that you can share with people who
maybe you're wanting to work on this.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Just self acceptance, like this is who I am. Sometimes
I think about it like I wore bracest I have
a gap. That's who I am and I love it now.
And my mom would say, oh, you didn't wear your retainer.
You didn't wear your retainer. But I don't want to
close the gap. Some people might and that's their choice.
But I'm confident in my smile and how my gift
(33:06):
shows up in my life. If my personality. So the
same with your speech. And that is also if you
just wanted to be confident in however you speak, if
you have a Southern dialect, if people tell you, oh,
you sound like whatever it is, you sound like, you
don't sound black. We used to hear that a lot
(33:27):
on the telephone, you know, on telephone you come in,
it's like, oh, you didn't sound like It's like asking
questions like, well, what does that sound like to you?
And just being comfortable in who you are and just
knowing that we are all uniquely and wonderfully made. But
if you do choose to address your communication different then
(33:49):
that's your choice and you have a choice. But a
lot of it is building that confidence with self acceptance
only that everyone is not perfect everyone, just like we
say everybody. Life is not how it is on social media,
So just how people show up and present themselves that
this is who you are and embrace who you are.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, so what does treatment typically look like, doctor Ellis,
Let's say that you are working with maybe a child
who has some disfluency. What will treatment look like and
how might that be different working with kids versus adults?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, so with children, there's different exercises. We talk about breathing,
depending upon if the child's ready for breathing exercise. Also
taking words, breaking it down one syllable at a time
or is that phone name? Also identifying which are there
(34:43):
particular sounds that they're more just fluent on than others,
having them being maybe some voice recording, having them listen
and differentiate, because once you're aware, then it gets a
little easier to work on. So differentiation and when something
may sound disfluent and when it's more fluent. So just
(35:06):
building some self awareness so then they're able to kind
of listen for that and address it. But kind of
very easy. Working on rate. If they're a fast talker,
that may result in some disfluencies, then working on the
rate of speech. So it depends upon what areas of
disfluent speech they have. So now when we talk about adults,
(35:28):
it may be starting with some history and knowing when
this first start, trying to see if there is something
there that may have triggered, and then having the adult
think of when are your most disfluent moments, So being
able to identify when are they most disfluent and if
there are certain situations, so being situational awareness and working
(35:54):
on those types of things and then moving more to
exercises that will help them easy talk, flow, doing breathing
before going into a sentence, if it's a certain sound.
A lot of times it's looking for the right word,
so you're trying to process and which may be causing
(36:14):
some dysfluency. So it's coming up with strategy. So that's
how it might differ from a child versus an adult.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And what kinds of things can loved ones do to
support somebody who maybe has a communication difference.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, just embrace, don't think about stigma, don't think about shaming. Rushing.
That's another thing. Giving people their time and their space,
not finishing their sentences, So giving them that time to communicate,
talking with them about how they feel and asking how
(36:51):
they can support them, not ordering for them or when
you go out, not being their spokesperson, but also letting
them have the opportunity and also making sure that other
family members and friends and support are also giving them
that same opportunity because a lot of times we just
(37:11):
want to hurry up, So let me just hurry up
in order for you, let me just finish your sentence.
But we've probably seen scenarios where with children when a
sibling when one is learning to talk to the other,
as the interpreter for the child to the parent, Oh
he said blah blah blah blah blah, and that's natural
as a kid. But if that happens, it's like, oh,
(37:33):
thank you, thank you for helping out. But let's hear
from but you know, making it a very normal process.
Let's hear what he has to say. And being inclusive
to not leaving someone out because you think that they're
not going to respond in time or they're just being
passed over like they may not have something to say.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Mm hmm. What strategy do you think you can offer
it for? How to to create an inclusive workspace for
people who may be have a variety of differences of communication.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, being accepted of everybody's communication style, including everyone in
opportunities to present or speak or be a part of
a team a presentation offering things I think about universal design,
like what helps someone helps everyone? So can you use
(38:29):
close captions when there is a video? How are you
presenting information? Are you considering people that learn better auditorily
and visually? Are we asking questions on how the staff
are in the workplace, how people may get their information better,
people having opportunities to process what you've presented. So if
(38:53):
there is professional development, it's like how fast are you
expecting to implement these strategies or new work processes and
are you giving people support to making sure that they
know how to implement that. So I always like to
talk about just like the universal design, like the door
(39:14):
that automatically opens that may help someone with a physical disability,
really helps everyone. So when we think about the whole
and just listening and asking those questions and making sure
that individuals with disabilities are present in your workplace. So
I do a lot of advocacy work with ableism and
(39:35):
presentations with another colleague and also agencies for employment in
the area that help people get employment. So thinking about
things like I know the employment agencies do this when
we present together. They talk about crafting a specialized interview,
so making sure that people have time and the interview,
(39:58):
you know, if you provide an an hour or how
you present the information. Also giving the individuals the opportunity
to do a day of work, so can they come
and do a half day of work. So these are
things I think about that we talk about when helping
individuals with disabilities seek and get employment, but really are
(40:20):
helpful for everyone. Like a job interview can be an hour,
but what does that look like if someone were to
do some work for half a day. I mean, they're
going to show you more that what they can do
than in within that hour and on their resume. So
just making sure that you have these opportunities that are
inclusive with COVID and using more technologies and flexibilities and schedules.
(40:44):
But when we consider that for everyone, then it can benefit.
But definitely looking at the accommodations and needs of individuals
with disabilities. The same with standing desks. I remember you
had to get an accommodation for a standard desk when
I was in federal service. But now that's just like
routine because we know that standing is better for us. Right,
(41:07):
So it's those types of things that universal design that
can help everyone.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
What kinds of accommodations do you want to make sure
that college students are aware of, so any communication accommodations
that they can use if they have a speech or
language disorder.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yes, making sure that when you hit campus that you
are going to the if it's the Office of Disabilities
or whatever that office is called on campus that you
are getting your accommodations, do not wait until you need them.
And I say that because often what happens is students
(41:46):
don't want to identify. Right it's a new environment and
they just don't you know, they are making friends or
they don't want to identify. But when you do that,
it's on the record, and then they get into class
situation and then they tell the teacher, oh why or
the professor I need but I have this disability. I
(42:06):
need accommodations. Well that's all find and good, but unless
they're getting some instruction from that office, they're not going
to be able to adhere to what you say. And
then often what happens by the time you do decide
you need it. If you go and your documentation is
outside of a it used to be a three year period,
(42:30):
then you may need a whole nother assessment. And now
if you're away from home, you're in a different place,
you're having to navigate that on top of getting the accommodation.
So that's why I try to tell the students and
advocate go to the office and get that letter or
whatever that looks like, and make sure your teachers are informed.
(42:53):
It's better to have it so you can use it
when you need it instead of trying to go through
the process as you're taking the test, or as you're
falling behind, or whatever the case may be with your assignments.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Ata Ellis, this has been so incredibly helpful. Can you
share with us where can we find you? What is
your website as well as any social media handles you'd
like to share.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
My company is not on social media. I do have
a website aurorasun Services dot com that's just about my
private practice and consulting some of the type of the
work I do. I'm on LinkedIn under Don Carrol Ellis.
You'll see speech language pathologists. Also the Dream Center, which
I'm the associate director. The Dream at Dreams Tha Center
(43:39):
is on Instagram. They're also on Facebook and social media.
So if you want to find out more about Dream.
If there's any faculty, we support university programs at MSIs,
HBCUs and tribal colleges that prepare personnel under IDA, so
the Individuals with Disabilities Education Acts, so that's psychologists, social workers,
(44:02):
speech language pathologists, occupational therapists, special led teachers. So if
there's a faculty out there who wants to write a
grand who's interested in finding out more about that. There's
personnel shortages and especially shortages of persons of color in
all of these fields. So and that's in the statue,
which is why why we're still funded that we want
(44:26):
to fill that gap of personnel shortages and also make
sure that we're feeling those training personnel from underrepresentative groups.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Will be sure to include all of that in the
show notes so that people know how to reach out
to you they're interested in learning.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, and another thing I would say, the American Speech
Language and Hearing Association has lots of tools and resources
for parents, and this is open to the community, not
behind the member wall, but for parents that want to
just know more about how my child hears and talks
and those sorts of things. All of that is a
available at ASHA dot org and you can research information
(45:05):
about communication disorders across the lifespan.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Perfect thank you for them. I'm sure lots of people
will appreciate that resource. So one more question for you
that's not super related to the topic, but still something
we length to know. What's one piece of advice that
you would give to your eighteen year old self.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Oh wow, just really to embrace who I was becoming.
There wasn't not a lot of people like me, and
there still isn't in the field. Even though I learned
how to sign at Bakersfield College when I was eighteen
and then went to cal State Northridge where there's the
National Center for the Death. There's a lot of a
(45:43):
big population of deafness, which all that experience led to
me being on faculty at Galadat. But just embrace who
I was becoming and knowing that I belonged in those
spaces where there were not people like me.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Thank you for that. I'm so glad Doctor Ellis was
able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session
four fifty three, and don't forget to text us episodes
to two of your girls right now and tell them
to check it out. Did you know that you could
(46:21):
leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
the podcast. If you have books and movies you'd like
to review, or topics you like us have discussed, drop
us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for
Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapists in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
(46:44):
forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and come on over and join us in our
Patreon community at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more.
We can't wait to see you inside. This episode was
produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Tubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
(47:06):
joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty three of the
Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. The ability to express
ourselves through speech remains one of the most important ways
(01:17):
we communicate. It's at the root of how we connect,
understand each other, and even how we explore our own identities.
From childhood, we learn that what we say and how
we're able to say it can impact how we move
through the world. Speech pathologists help those of us who
experience challenges in expressing our thoughts in processing language, and
as important as this work is, there are still disparities
(01:39):
in who receives care. A recent study from twenty twenty
four found that black patients are about thirteen percent less
likely to receive speech language pathology services than white patients,
even after accounting for differences in health and demographic factors.
That's why I'm excited to welcome doctor don Ellis. She's
a speech language pathologist, advocate, and educator whose journey led
(02:01):
her to a career helping children, families, and communities communicate
with confidence. In this conversation, we explore language development, identity,
and how communication intersects with mental health, particularly for black
women and families. If something resonates with you while enjoying
our conversation, please share with us on social media using
the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over in
(02:23):
our patreons and talk more about the episode. You can
join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Here's our conversation. Hi, doctor Ellis, thank you so much
for joining us today. Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah,
it's a pleasure to chat with you. So can you
start by telling us about your journey in speech and
(02:46):
language pathology and what drew you to this field.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Sure. So when people ask this question, I think about
my Cotilion book that in there, my under my picture
I had listed I wanted to be a child physists.
Not sure what that is. But fast forward to going
to college. I was accepted into cal State Fresno, and
when my parents got there to drop me off, they
(03:11):
said they had their quota of black students. The letter
hadn't reached them yet, and so I could not enroll,
I couldn't stay. And so I'm not sure and I
would tease my mom how this happened. But on the
way home, they stopped at Bakersfail College and they knew
that they had dorms and they had a space. Someone
(03:32):
didn't show up in the dorms, and so they left
me there and they were like, oh, we'll get her
enrolled and all of her aid and everything will transfer
because it was this state school. And so my work
study job was in the handicapped Service center and I
was assigned to the speech language pathologists. Wow. And so
(03:54):
I always say, God makes no mistakes. And so then
I finished my two years they and transfer to cal
State University Northbridge, where I got my bachelor's in Communicative
Sciences and Disorders and then onto Howard University where I
got my master's at my doctorate.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Wow, that is quite a story. I love that it
has come full circle for you. Actually it has been
a field that you have thrived in. So what did
you intend to major in when you were going to college?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I knew I wanted to work with children, and so,
like I said, I don't know what a physiologist was
what I put in that or answered that question, but
probably I was thinking psychology. I was probably thinking child psychology.
But I knew I wanted to work with children. So
at Howard they had a grant from Department of Ed
(04:44):
Office Special ED program, which is another full circle moment
because I later in my career I became one of
the competition managers for that program at Department of Ed.
But it was specializing in zero to five. So that
was when the law had changed, the Individuals with Disabilities
Education Act where it went down to age zero, so
(05:08):
it started from at three to twenty one and the
law had changed. And so what the department event put
out programs which I now know to make sure that
people are trained both what we call pre service, which
is at the university level, and in service, which would
be what you're a professional and getting like continuing education units.
(05:29):
But through my masters, I was trained in pediatrics, so
we had to take twelve more units and have more
clinical hours in that birth to five population.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Got it. And so what does a typical day look
like for you as a special language pathologist.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, so now it's a little different from the work
that I do. But I have a private practice and
I'm also associate director of Technical Assistance Center. So my
private practice, I mainly my caseload is with individuals with
developmental with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So I see some
(06:05):
clients via telehealth and home health. And that home health
the clients can be in their natural home with their
parent or guardian, or they could live in supportive living
like a group home. So I try to focus like
one specific day for doing home health when I'm out
in the community going into the homes to see clients.
(06:26):
And then I have virtual clients, you know via telehealth,
and some clients that I see via telehealth. I also
I do like a hybrid model, so I make sure
that I see them like once a quarter, once a
month in person. So that's pretty much like a typical day.
In between that there's a lot of planning, there's billing,
(06:47):
there's I do service work. So I do a lot
of service work with my national professional organization, so I
may I sit on a committee right now, I'm on
the Committee of Ambassadors with the American Speed, Language and
Hearing Association, and I am the Speech Language Pathologist representative
for the District of Columbia. So in that there's a
(07:08):
lot of work just doing advocacy work. And then I'm
also the associate director of DREAM, which is a national
technical assistance center that supports minority serving institutions, including HBCUs
and tribal colleges to help them write applications and build
capacity to get federal funds to train personnel under the
(07:32):
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Beautiful, You're a very busy woman.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah. I get to do a lot of things that
I love to do and that have just built upon
my experience over the years.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Mm hm. So I feel like I've only i think
historically heard about speech and language pathologists as a part
of like elementary school, but clearly the work that you
do spans much later into life as well. So you've
already talked about working in schools, having a private practice.
What other kinds of career paths might have speech language
pathologies be able to explore.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Sure, And that's a great question. So I think about
my own career path where I started working in schools,
in early intervention, which is in community based settings, going
into home, also at daycares, in hospitals, so that's some
of the places that you can work hospitals, rehabilitation, in
(08:26):
the home. I've been on faculty both at Oklahoma State
University and Galadette University, also adjuncts here in the area
like Howard University of District of Columbia, and also I
worked for my national professional association, the American Speech Language
and Hearing Association, where I worked in their research department
(08:49):
where I was the director and manager of federal funds,
which gave me federal experience, and then working you know,
in federal service for the government. Living here in the
District of Columbia, I had the mindset that I wanted
to work in all of these because there are some
really unique opportunities being here in the nation's capital. So
(09:13):
I wanted to touch all of those and so I
felt like I was successful doing that. But you can
be in academia you can work at the university level
as a faculty member or a clinical educator where you
are supervising students doing like practicum because usually the university
settings have a speech and hearing clinic where scholars or
(09:38):
students get their experience first in the clinic before going
out to like a practicum site. There's just so many
opportunities in different settings that people can work in. I
have friends that are colleagues in private practice that also
work with, say, actors on modification of a dialect for
(10:00):
a role in a movie. There are some that work
in the corporate setting that may want to help people
communicate better. That's a job that's more of an elective.
It's not a deficit, but it's something that corporations may
want to offer as a benefit to people, and just
not to accent or dialect reduction, but also just to
(10:23):
be an overall better and more effective communicator.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So, doctor ellis, what are some of the common speech
and language and communication disorders that we might be both
familiar with, but maybe some that we also aren't familiar with.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, so when we talk about speech, we think of production, articulation,
motor planning, voice fluency. All of those fall under speech
and talk about familiarity versus non familiar One of the
things we like to talk about fluency, which most people
may know as stuttering. We don't like to use that
(10:58):
term because we don't want to label individuals, but mainly
refer to the characteristic of the speech, which is a
disruption in the flow. So we talk about fluency disorders.
When we think of receptive language, what we understand expressive language,
you know what we're able our words or grammar are sentences.
Then there's vocabulary, grammar, and pragmatics, which is more social
(11:22):
communication and how you use the language in a social context,
and then communication overall social communication, we can talk about
alternative and assistive devices, agnitiative and alternative devices. That's part
of communication, so people that may use a device to communicate,
and then cognitive communication, memory and attention, executive function, and
(11:50):
multimodal communication, sign language, people using gestures, body language. Those
are some of the areas that communication could be effective.
Might seek out a speech language pathologist.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, so such a wide variety, right, And I think
when you hear it broken down that way, you realize,
like how many parts there are to speech in communication.
So maybe we just start with like fluency, right, which
you talked about, used to be known as stuttering, but
the more appropriate term now is a fluency concern. When
you talk about fluency, is this typically a physiological kind
(12:23):
of concern? Is it more social emotional? Like? What is
typically the cause of a fluency concern? Yeah, it can be.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
All of the above or parts of that. So I
think about when we look at children. Children can in
the developmental stages of language, especially at ages like three
and four, their receptive language always exceeds expressive. So children
are going to understand more than they're able to get out.
(12:51):
And so when they're trying to get all their thoughts
together and express that, and sometimes they know what they
want to say, but they don't don't have the words,
that can't put it into words, and that might sound
disfluent to a parent. So often we get oh, my
child's stuttering, you know. So first the thing is like, okay,
let's you know, we counsel parents, like we want to
(13:13):
talk about the characteristics and not label it. You don't
want to call attention to it because then that makes
the child self conscious about it, and you know, let's
give it time for maturation, for development, and you may
see those disfluencies go away. You don't be a good
model yourself is slowing down your speech and helping them
(13:37):
find the words by just modeling those words, not scolding
or shaming someone about not being able to get their
words out. But then we can see where there could
be an issue as time develops an age and a
person may still have those disfluencies. Sometimes it could be
(13:58):
related to trauma like adverse childhood experiences. Not all the time,
but it can be you know, something comes up, you
saw something, or you get in a situation where you
feel stressed. So therefore, and it could be a stressful environment.
And then it develops more into a pattern, and then
(14:19):
we see adults that as you get older, the individual
has maintained those patterns and may need to seek therapy
for just ways to modify and to control that. And
sometimes that also involves counseling, especially if there is some
trauma identify with how a person may have begun to
(14:43):
have some disfluencies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
More from our conversation after the break, are there particular
concerns that you feel like are often misdiagnosed or overlooked,
especially in the black community. When we're thinking about Speacian
language and communication disorders.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, just acceptance awareness. So under a lot of times
people aren't aware of a speech language pathologist, and people
think about speech only, but they don't think about the
language part or the cognitive and how all that works together.
So when we look in the school setting, their research
(15:29):
and you can look like there may be an over
diagnosis or overrepresentation of black children in special led programs.
But also there's some research that suggests that there is
an underidentification of people of color with speech and language disorders,
because when you look at individuals that are incarcerated, often
(15:52):
there is some evidence that there is a disability, whether
it's diagnosed or undiagnosed, that there's something going on there.
So there's two schools of thought there, you know, and
both could be true in different contexts. That's the same time.
But I think just the awareness and the acceptance that
(16:14):
my child may need to get help. And we're talking
about children here, because on the adult side, there are
things that happen like stroke, close head injury, traumatic brain injury,
which then you're in a medical setting where these services
speech OT or PT are presented to you based upon
(16:36):
your needs, but when we're talking about children and youth
sometimes there's acceptance. There's also I think we're coming out
of this. The stigma associated with someone that may have
a disability, that a communication disorder is part of this.
And I was just thinking about yesterday. I was in
(16:58):
New York and I saw Purpose and it was there
some underlying issues in the play about people not being
diagnosed about ural divergence and wanting to keep that hush
hush about what my child may be experiencing. So I
think there's that shame sometimes in that stigma. But the
(17:20):
more that we're aware, the more that there's awareness of
individuals across the board with disabilities, the more acceptance there is,
and the more acceptance there is to get help and
not feel that shame because my child is not perfect,
so I kind of want to keep it hush. And
(17:41):
I saw I was a girl Scout leader and when
my kids were younger, and I would have parents that
would not want to identify and they didn't have to,
that was their choice. But being in the field, it's
like I knew how to deal with that, but other leaders,
when it's not identify, may not and you're taking a
(18:02):
child out like on a camping trip or something like that.
And there are things that could be really helpful if
you knew, and that you can make accommodations for and
make it work. But just hoping that the more awareness
of people with disabilities and you know, including the communication
disorder and the fact that that doesn't mean that something
(18:26):
is wrong or is that you can't fully participate in society,
I think is key.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, yeah, you know. And as you're talking, I'm thinking
about like my two little ones, Like when I would
be filling out paperwork at the pediatrician, I remember questions
around like have they shared their first words? And like
they are all these milestones, and I'm thinking like beyond
like your pediatrician, and maybe if like a teacher or
somebody recognizes, like, hey, there may be some calls for
(18:54):
concern here, like what kinds of things should parents or
caregivers be paying attention to well on the look up
for that there may be something going on that might
require some additional treatment.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
This is a great question too, because I don't have
grandchildren right now, but a lot of my friends are
having aired first grandchild, and I get a lot of
cause about hey, can you come over and observe or
this is going on, and sometimes it starts with the grandparent,
you know, but and I haven't done that throughout my career.
(19:25):
But being aware of what the developmental milestones are, knowing
that a child's development and acquisition of sounds could be
through like age six to eight. So s is a
later developing sound or thch is a later developing sound.
So if they're using an easier sound to produce a
(19:51):
word than you know, rabbit for rabbit, then that's okay,
Like that's okay, They're not expected to produce that sound yet.
So being aware of what like milestones are, especially for sounds,
that's like one of the biggest one. Also not comparing.
We hear this throughout life. Right, she has a cousin
the same age and she is talking so much better,
(20:13):
but then also realizing that she's more repeating things. There
is nothing wrong, but it's just not the same. It's
hard not to compare, but every child is different. So
just knowing what the milestones are, just making sure that
you are asking questions. And in a couple of these scenarios,
(20:37):
teachers have said or daycare like, hey, what does so
and so speech sound like at home? Or how are
they talking at home? Also in two days world, when
we're thinking about children that maybe three four thinking about
COVID babies, you know everybody was isolated so during that time,
(20:58):
and you hear a parents say, oh, she was a
co baby. So not saying that things are delayed, but
we know that when children are around other children, they
begin to pick up things, they begin to communicate on
their level with their peers. So that's another thing. Being
involved in play groups and talking to other parents, not
(21:18):
in a comparison way, but just to get information. But
of course all the things we hear about, continue to
read and expose your child to opportunities in everyday life,
going to the grocery store, talking, playing outside, just natural
things beyond technology and screen time. Not saying that that's bad,
(21:39):
but just early on putting limits on it and knowing
what to do. But it's just more being aware. And
if you do, don't wait, because for a child time
three months seems like half a year or a year
in growth. So if you do have concern, don't wait.
There's child fine in every state, every county which you
(22:02):
can call, and if you don't know where to go,
help to get started with Hey, I have these concerns,
and how do I get started to figure out if
I need to do something further to give my child
the support they need.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Our speech and language pathology is typically covered by insurance.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
So yeah, so that's a good question. So yes, if
there is a disorder, and so that's going to be
the key thing if you go the private route. So
that's why I encourage parents when they do if their
child is under five, to use the resources like child
Fine and Early Start or whatever it's called in your area,
(22:45):
because you're entitled to those services through the school system.
So that's the place that I would always recommend that
people start if your child is diagnosed. And each county,
each state has their own criteria of how they determine eligibility.
So if your child is determined eligible for services and
(23:05):
I'm talking about now speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy for
the birth to five, then you can get those services
through the school system and for zero to two in
the home, so they can come to your home or
community based setting to provide those services. Some parents want
to go private services might be limited through childflying based
(23:29):
upon the eligibility criteria and the percentage that they may
see a delay. We talk about delays in those early
years versus disorders if there is some evidence of hearing
loss of course there and hearing laws we know can
delay language acquisition, the acquisition of sounds. You don't get
(23:49):
the feedback like everybody gets, so you're not really sure
when the sound doesn't sound right. And that's for adults too,
so that would be covered. Of course, there's a whole
process this, but usually when it comes to insurance, there
has to be a delay or disorder identified and whatever
that eligibility looks like for that insurance carrier. M.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So you've already talked a little bit about like the
different dialect we may have because we maybe grow up
in different regions. Right, How do you differentiate the difference
between like a dialect or somebody's like natural way of
speaking versus somebody that's something that's a delay or a deficiency.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, so good question. We talk about delay or disorder.
We also see this in individuals whose primary language may
not be English, so it's important to know sound like
how they're functioning in l one the primary language versus
the secondary language. But also when we're talking about a dialect,
(24:51):
so speaking a second language, is different. But when we're
talking about a dialect, it's important to know what the
features are to know if it's a difference or versus
a disord. So also just because someone doesn't sound like us,
or they move to a different region and they sound different,
does not mean that it's a disorder. And when we're
(25:12):
talking about school age, how is it affecting their academic performance?
That's gonna be really important. So we all know their
Southern dialect. There's New England dialects, there's dialects. I came
from California to Howard. I went to school in a valley,
so I was I had valley speech. That's what they
(25:33):
told me. But also when I was at Northridge, parents
would bring their kids into the clinic wanting this valley
speech worked on and stuff. So that was like I
was a student then, But I do remember that. But
different regions, different areas. Even here in the DMV, you're
gonna hear different what we call prosodic patterns, tone, maybe
(25:58):
even different morphological patterns. We see that in African American English.
There's also Southern White English. There's so many different ones.
Is it affecting your academic performance? Is it affecting your
work performance in some way, and that could be objective,
you know, how your speech is, but it's really up
(26:20):
to how is the listener perceiving and are they perceiving
a difference based upon what they sound like, and are
they really having trouble with understanding or is it just
they may not like the way the person sounds or
it doesn't sound like.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Them mm hmmmmmm. You know, as you're talking a to Ellice,
it reminds me of the importance of having a variety
of practitioners in the field because there's so often a
connection between like what the presentation of a voice sounds like,
in connecting that to like intellect in ways that are
not accurate, and it sounds like that is what you're
speaking to.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, And just because someone has a disfluency let's go
back there, or someone doesn't sound like you, does not
mean that it equates to intellect, you know, And I
think that over time that's what has happened. Sometimes it's
the majority, and the majority wants people to sound like
(27:24):
what they sound like, and so therefore they perceive it
to be People are less educated, and there are studies
where there's unfamiliar listeners and people listen to just a
recording or a voice and they rate maybe their education
level or a number of things. And of course those
(27:44):
that don't sound like the majority or maybe rate it lower.
But when you look at qualifications, they could be higher,
you know. And this is like in a study, but
it's just rating people based upon how they sound as
opposed to to who they are and what they bring
to the table.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Right, So, I wonder if you can talk about how
growing up with a speech or a communication disorder impact
somebody's mental health. I'm thinking things like self worth. You
already mentioned a little bit about anxiety, Like what does
this do for somebody's vision of themselves?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, so it can cause people to feel less than
not comfortable with themselves. They lack confidence. And it could
also be communication disorders, but other disabilities like ADHD. We
talked about disfluencies. It could bring upon anxiety. People that
may have issues with processing or social anxiety and they
(28:45):
go into a room and we all know people stand
up to start to speak and you just freeze. I
know there are some people that may have OCD that
also can bring about some of these disfluencies or or
a lag in their communication, their responsiveness because they're processing,
they're trying to get their thoughts together. That also happens
(29:09):
with we said with people with disfluencies. They need that minute,
or they're in a situation where they are traumatized, there's
people there they may for whatever reason, all of these
things plan to come into play where you're not getting
enough sleep or you're not functioning at your best, and
then you go into a situation and you're like frozen
(29:33):
or you're tired, you're not getting your words together. So
all of those things can come into play for individuals
that may have a communication disorder and just not feeling
real confident or I don't sound like this person, or
people use big vocabulary or words and you may think
my vocabulary is not the same. So therefore I'm not
(29:55):
going to show up as I can because I'm not
measuring up to others that may be in my environment.
And that can be how you think about it, but
that is not always true.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
What might it look like for an adult to work
with a speech in language pathologist, Like is that an option?
Like maybe you didn't realize as a child that there
were these concerns, but you realize it as an adult,
does it make sense to work with a speech in
language pathologists then or is there some different treatment railte.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
At that point? As an adult, it's elective unless you
had like post stroke or we're talking about traumatic brain injury,
Parkinson's dementia, things like that. But yeah, like as an adult,
it would be elective therapy. You know, it would not
I'm not saying it couldn't be approved by insurance, but
(30:46):
this is something later on. So but it's pretty much
going to be elective therapy. And yes, it's finding out
what is it that you want to achieve, What is
it that you feel that you you want to address,
or what responses are you getting from your communication partner
(31:07):
that you feel that you may want to change, And
so looking at it that way, and like I said,
it's elective. So it depends upon the person and some
of that. Like we are not counselors, but we're trained
in some aspects of counseling. You know, usually there's a
counseling course that the program that you have to take
(31:29):
because it is getting at that root and building confidence.
So some of my adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities,
which is different that I work with those that are
able to use some language, we work on confidence and
we go out in the community. We may go to
a place to order practice ordering food or asking questions
(31:50):
in the community and getting them comfortable in the community
around people, and just the feedback that they're getting once
people realize, Okay, this person may not communicate, but they're
here and they're a consumer and I want to help them.
(32:11):
And so what ends up happening is that the adult
with the disability is getting positive feedback and that's building
their confidence to make them want to participate more in
the community and use their communication skills.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
More from our conversation after the break are other strategies
for building confidence that you can share with people who
maybe you're wanting to work on this.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Just self acceptance, like this is who I am. Sometimes
I think about it like I wore bracest I have
a gap. That's who I am and I love it now.
And my mom would say, oh, you didn't wear your retainer.
You didn't wear your retainer. But I don't want to
close the gap. Some people might and that's their choice.
But I'm confident in my smile and how my gift
(33:06):
shows up in my life. If my personality. So the
same with your speech. And that is also if you
just wanted to be confident in however you speak, if
you have a Southern dialect, if people tell you, oh,
you sound like whatever it is, you sound like, you
don't sound black. We used to hear that a lot
(33:27):
on the telephone, you know, on telephone you come in,
it's like, oh, you didn't sound like It's like asking
questions like, well, what does that sound like to you?
And just being comfortable in who you are and just
knowing that we are all uniquely and wonderfully made. But
if you do choose to address your communication different then
(33:49):
that's your choice and you have a choice. But a
lot of it is building that confidence with self acceptance
only that everyone is not perfect everyone, just like we
say everybody. Life is not how it is on social media,
So just how people show up and present themselves that
this is who you are and embrace who you are.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, so what does treatment typically look like, doctor Ellis,
Let's say that you are working with maybe a child
who has some disfluency. What will treatment look like and
how might that be different working with kids versus adults?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, so with children, there's different exercises. We talk about breathing,
depending upon if the child's ready for breathing exercise. Also
taking words, breaking it down one syllable at a time
or is that phone name? Also identifying which are there
(34:43):
particular sounds that they're more just fluent on than others,
having them being maybe some voice recording, having them listen
and differentiate, because once you're aware, then it gets a
little easier to work on. So differentiation and when something
may sound disfluent and when it's more fluent. So just
(35:06):
building some self awareness so then they're able to kind
of listen for that and address it. But kind of
very easy. Working on rate. If they're a fast talker,
that may result in some disfluencies, then working on the
rate of speech. So it depends upon what areas of
disfluent speech they have. So now when we talk about adults,
(35:28):
it may be starting with some history and knowing when
this first start, trying to see if there is something
there that may have triggered, and then having the adult
think of when are your most disfluent moments, So being
able to identify when are they most disfluent and if
there are certain situations, so being situational awareness and working
(35:54):
on those types of things and then moving more to
exercises that will help them easy talk, flow, doing breathing
before going into a sentence, if it's a certain sound.
A lot of times it's looking for the right word,
so you're trying to process and which may be causing
(36:14):
some dysfluency. So it's coming up with strategy. So that's
how it might differ from a child versus an adult.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And what kinds of things can loved ones do to
support somebody who maybe has a communication difference.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, just embrace, don't think about stigma, don't think about shaming. Rushing.
That's another thing. Giving people their time and their space,
not finishing their sentences, So giving them that time to communicate,
talking with them about how they feel and asking how
(36:51):
they can support them, not ordering for them or when
you go out, not being their spokesperson, but also letting
them have the opportunity and also making sure that other
family members and friends and support are also giving them
that same opportunity because a lot of times we just
(37:11):
want to hurry up, So let me just hurry up
in order for you, let me just finish your sentence.
But we've probably seen scenarios where with children when a
sibling when one is learning to talk to the other,
as the interpreter for the child to the parent, Oh
he said blah blah blah blah blah, and that's natural
as a kid. But if that happens, it's like, oh,
(37:33):
thank you, thank you for helping out. But let's hear
from but you know, making it a very normal process.
Let's hear what he has to say. And being inclusive
to not leaving someone out because you think that they're
not going to respond in time or they're just being
passed over like they may not have something to say.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Mm hmm. What strategy do you think you can offer
it for? How to to create an inclusive workspace for
people who may be have a variety of differences of communication.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, being accepted of everybody's communication style, including everyone in
opportunities to present or speak or be a part of
a team a presentation offering things I think about universal design,
like what helps someone helps everyone? So can you use
(38:29):
close captions when there is a video? How are you
presenting information? Are you considering people that learn better auditorily
and visually? Are we asking questions on how the staff
are in the workplace, how people may get their information better,
people having opportunities to process what you've presented. So if
(38:53):
there is professional development, it's like how fast are you
expecting to implement these strategies or new work processes and
are you giving people support to making sure that they
know how to implement that. So I always like to
talk about just like the universal design, like the door
(39:14):
that automatically opens that may help someone with a physical disability,
really helps everyone. So when we think about the whole
and just listening and asking those questions and making sure
that individuals with disabilities are present in your workplace. So
I do a lot of advocacy work with ableism and
(39:35):
presentations with another colleague and also agencies for employment in
the area that help people get employment. So thinking about
things like I know the employment agencies do this when
we present together. They talk about crafting a specialized interview,
so making sure that people have time and the interview,
(39:58):
you know, if you provide an an hour or how
you present the information. Also giving the individuals the opportunity
to do a day of work, so can they come
and do a half day of work. So these are
things I think about that we talk about when helping
individuals with disabilities seek and get employment, but really are
(40:20):
helpful for everyone. Like a job interview can be an hour,
but what does that look like if someone were to
do some work for half a day. I mean, they're
going to show you more that what they can do
than in within that hour and on their resume. So
just making sure that you have these opportunities that are
inclusive with COVID and using more technologies and flexibilities and schedules.
(40:44):
But when we consider that for everyone, then it can benefit.
But definitely looking at the accommodations and needs of individuals
with disabilities. The same with standing desks. I remember you
had to get an accommodation for a standard desk when
I was in federal service. But now that's just like
routine because we know that standing is better for us. Right,
(41:07):
So it's those types of things that universal design that
can help everyone.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
What kinds of accommodations do you want to make sure
that college students are aware of, so any communication accommodations
that they can use if they have a speech or
language disorder.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yes, making sure that when you hit campus that you
are going to the if it's the Office of Disabilities
or whatever that office is called on campus that you
are getting your accommodations, do not wait until you need them.
And I say that because often what happens is students
(41:46):
don't want to identify. Right it's a new environment and
they just don't you know, they are making friends or
they don't want to identify. But when you do that,
it's on the record, and then they get into class
situation and then they tell the teacher, oh why or
the professor I need but I have this disability. I
(42:06):
need accommodations. Well that's all find and good, but unless
they're getting some instruction from that office, they're not going
to be able to adhere to what you say. And
then often what happens by the time you do decide
you need it. If you go and your documentation is
outside of a it used to be a three year period,
(42:30):
then you may need a whole nother assessment. And now
if you're away from home, you're in a different place,
you're having to navigate that on top of getting the accommodation.
So that's why I try to tell the students and
advocate go to the office and get that letter or
whatever that looks like, and make sure your teachers are informed.
(42:53):
It's better to have it so you can use it
when you need it instead of trying to go through
the process as you're taking the test, or as you're
falling behind, or whatever the case may be with your assignments.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Ata Ellis, this has been so incredibly helpful. Can you
share with us where can we find you? What is
your website as well as any social media handles you'd
like to share.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
My company is not on social media. I do have
a website aurorasun Services dot com that's just about my
private practice and consulting some of the type of the
work I do. I'm on LinkedIn under Don Carrol Ellis.
You'll see speech language pathologists. Also the Dream Center, which
I'm the associate director. The Dream at Dreams Tha Center
(43:39):
is on Instagram. They're also on Facebook and social media.
So if you want to find out more about Dream.
If there's any faculty, we support university programs at MSIs,
HBCUs and tribal colleges that prepare personnel under IDA, so
the Individuals with Disabilities Education Acts, so that's psychologists, social workers,
(44:02):
speech language pathologists, occupational therapists, special led teachers. So if
there's a faculty out there who wants to write a
grand who's interested in finding out more about that. There's
personnel shortages and especially shortages of persons of color in
all of these fields. So and that's in the statue,
which is why why we're still funded that we want
(44:26):
to fill that gap of personnel shortages and also make
sure that we're feeling those training personnel from underrepresentative groups.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Will be sure to include all of that in the
show notes so that people know how to reach out
to you they're interested in learning.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, and another thing I would say, the American Speech
Language and Hearing Association has lots of tools and resources
for parents, and this is open to the community, not
behind the member wall, but for parents that want to
just know more about how my child hears and talks
and those sorts of things. All of that is a
available at ASHA dot org and you can research information
(45:05):
about communication disorders across the lifespan.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Perfect thank you for them. I'm sure lots of people
will appreciate that resource. So one more question for you
that's not super related to the topic, but still something
we length to know. What's one piece of advice that
you would give to your eighteen year old self.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Oh wow, just really to embrace who I was becoming.
There wasn't not a lot of people like me, and
there still isn't in the field. Even though I learned
how to sign at Bakersfield College when I was eighteen
and then went to cal State Northridge where there's the
National Center for the Death. There's a lot of a
(45:43):
big population of deafness, which all that experience led to
me being on faculty at Galadat. But just embrace who
I was becoming and knowing that I belonged in those
spaces where there were not people like me.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Thank you for that. I'm so glad Doctor Ellis was
able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session
four fifty three, and don't forget to text us episodes
to two of your girls right now and tell them
to check it out. Did you know that you could
(46:21):
leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
the podcast. If you have books and movies you'd like
to review, or topics you like us have discussed, drop
us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for
Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapists in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
(46:44):
forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black
Girls and come on over and join us in our
Patreon community at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more.
We can't wait to see you inside. This episode was
produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Tubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
(47:06):
joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
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