March 18, 2026 • 37 mins
Lately, it feels like a lot of people are being asked to do more and more at work. Teams are stretched thin, responsibilities keep expanding, and many of us are finding ourselves carrying workloads that don’t always match the support, resources, or recognition we receive. For Black women in particular, these dynamics can show up in some very specific ways. One of them is the glass cliff, the tendency to be elevated to leadership roles during moments of crisis or instability, often when the stakes are highest, and the margin for error is very small.
For this conversation, I’m joined by leadership advisor and keynote speaker Dr. Yasmene Mumby. Dr. Mumby is the founder of The Ringgold, a firm that has helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world achieve their mission-critical organizational ambitions. We discussed what the glass cliff is, why Black women so often find themselves navigating it, and what it looks like to advocate for yourself while leading in high-pressure environments. We also discuss workplace realities many of us recognize—from navigating microaggressions and documenting your work to setting boundaries around your capacity and communicating strategically with colleagues.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. Lately, it feels like
a lot of people are being asked to do more
(01:17):
and more at work. Teams are stretched thin, responsibilities keep expanding,
and many of us are finding ourselves carrying workloads that
don't always match the support, resources, or recognition we deserve.
For black women in particular, these dynamics can show up
in some very specific ways. One of them is the
glass cliff. Think of it as when women and especially
(01:39):
women of color, are elevated to leadership roles during moments
of crisis or instability, often when the stakes are the
highest and the margin for error is very small. Because
this conversation continues to feel relevant, maybe even more relevant
than when we first aired it, we're throwing it back
to an earlier episode that explores what it means to
navigate these dynamics while protecting your well being and leadership capacity.
(02:03):
In this conversation, I'm joined by leadership advisor and keynote speaker,
doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby is the founder of the Ringgold,
a firm that has helped some of the most impactful
organizations in the world achieve their mission critical organizational ambitions.
Her work focuses on helping leaders build sustainable organizations and
create environments where people can thrive without burning out. Together,
(02:27):
we talk about what the glass cliff is, why black
women shall often find themselves navigating it, and what it
looks like to advocate for yourself while leading in high
pressure environments. We also discuss workplace realities many of us recognize,
from navigating microaggressions and documenting your work to setting boundaries
around your capacity and communicating strategically with colleagues. If something
(02:49):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or come talk it through with us on Patreon. Our
community is so place where black women gather to unpack
episodes like this one, share workplace experiences, and support one
another in navigating it all. You can join us at
community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank
(03:17):
you so much for joining us today, doctor Mumby.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this
conversation and to be in connection with you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Absolutely absolutely so. You are a sustainable leadership advisor? Can
you tell us what that means and what your typical
work day looks like.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most
of them identify as women Black women, from burning out.
I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines,
even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person,
so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity
so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life.
(03:56):
A lot of my professional career has been around balancing
a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that
led itself to me also focusing on my personal life
and how I can also work to have equilibrium or
at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm
not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out
in the other. And that's becoming even more important now
(04:17):
that I have a little baby who's now ten months.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one
that kick you into we having to reimagine some things.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So much of your work is really focused on creating
easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean?
To be an easeful leader.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It's a leader who is operating from the core of
their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who
takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how
is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their
productivity and the culture that we have on STAF. A
(05:00):
lot of folks and a lot of organizations get caught
up in production production, production, and that's because sometimes we
have external validators who are putting a lot of pressure
on us to perform, to be visible. And it's our
role as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to
(05:21):
support the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just
the technical to say, hey, I understand what my team
is going through. This is going on in the context
of the world. If you aren't considering that and you're
pushed for us to be more whatever, productive, more visible,
more everything with less resources happens a lot at the time.
(05:44):
If we continue down this path at this pace, this
is what the impact will be, not just on our
team morale and our team structure, but also for the
quality of our work.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So it sounds like you have worked across a variety
of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders.
Can you talk a little bit about some of the
common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff re treat
on the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally,
and what I'm noticing in working with them, we're all
dealing with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity
to take on all these transformative goals and this expansive
vision that we have for our work right now? And
(06:26):
does it have to be right now? Because right now
we're considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner
than many of us on the team already feel. So
that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my
portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject
of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So is it that people are kind of seeing so
much need that they are trying to like take on
additional task and like have the organization perform. Is that
a part of it sometimes?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the organization
where they like they have to perform at this pace
to visibly look like they're being productive. And that's a
difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level, noticing
what has been their contribution to this reality and noticing
(07:19):
the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports,
and then having the conversation with the board and or
funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas
And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes
reflects the micro. So what's going on individually with each
leader where they feel like they have to contribute to
this pace And that's where my individual coaching really kicks
(07:41):
in and where we see some changes because leadership is
an extension of who you are and yourself in the
way it's landing on others. And if we don't really
on Earth what's going on there through your leadership actions,
you just going to be having a lot of people
being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing
your own pctices of self, compassion and support.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So I'm wondering, doctamombi, how do companies understand whether they're
following their values or whether they're trying to like hitch
to some arbitrary kind of sense of value.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping,
they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, It shows
up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in
not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor,
it shows up when something has happened in the organization
and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone
(08:38):
to come in and support them. And that's how I
typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth.
They're like, yes, me and her team can come in
here and help us objectively figure out the best path
forward and also to support people through this transition and
change management. I got to say a lot of that
effort and work comes from my comfort being in the
middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking
(09:02):
for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts.
And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself
of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and
it also helps that I was a teacher and a
community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm
used to finding solutions.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
He got a lot of experience in a lot of
different ways to do this work. It sounds.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
We all do. We all do.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So you mentioned that a majority of the clients that
you work with are often black women, and we know
that black women are often expected to have these really
high expectations, but also the pay and the promotion rates
don't necessarily kind of match up with that. So can
you tell me a little bit about what kinds of
questions black women should be asking themselves and their supervisors
if they feel like their level of work isn't necessarily
(09:54):
matching either their pay grade or their.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support
them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that,
we can talk about them. So some of the questions,
it depends on where you are in the process. So
if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal
candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're
(10:17):
in the thick of the role and you're seeing that
your work is outpacing what was initially written down about
what the role would be, these questions can be helpful.
And if you are considering whether or not you want
to stay in the role given that your work has
outgrown what initially was supposed to be within the scope
of work, these questions could be helpful. One I would
(10:39):
have the conversation with the decision maker, because having the
conversation with folks who don't have decision making power can
distract from the purpose of why you need to have
such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I first
narrow in is this the decision maker? And if this
person isn't, then I need to find out who is
so I don't waste my time. One of the questions
(11:01):
I have folks consider is what's the scope of work
initially laid out for this role or what has been
the scope of work? What are you doing now within
the scope of work, how have you exceeded the limits
of what the scope of work was supposed to protect?
And then what is the difference between the two, And
how has that impacted not just your workload, but the
(11:24):
time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality.
Most often you've been able to keep up high quality
work even being limited and stretched, And how has it
impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're
taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't
have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality,
(11:45):
then chances are you might be taking on some of
their work that they should have been doing or could
be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown
within their scope of work instead of yours. So those
are their first foundational because we've got to get really
clear with the evidence. What do we see? I want
to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues.
How are you being treated? Are people asking you, pinging you?
(12:09):
Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft Teams? Are
they pinging you big eleven times?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Have you done this?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
How's this going?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Can you give me an update on this. Chances are
folks have already internalized that you are at this leadership
role taking on more of this work, and are treating
you such and have the expectations of you. But yet
that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated formally into
your scope over for your job description, and it hasn't
(12:37):
translated formally into the resources money you need to bring
on the team or to support the team that you're
supposed to have or do have to do more. And
so that's the beginning, just the beginning. That's the analysis.
Second part the process, we go through, Okay, what's the strategy,
Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person?
What do they care about most? I would get them
(12:58):
to understand what you're going to going through. How do
we build empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we
go into actually role playing and mapping it out. What
are we doing? And then fourth we go back to evaluation.
What has happened? What are the results? That's kind of valuation.
So this all occurs within an engagement of coaching around
(13:18):
your leadership development, because so often we're out here on
our own trying to figure it out and also implementing
in a way that can feel isolating, even though other
folks have gone through what you were going through are
going through it alongside you, and that sense of community
helps embolden you to stand up for yourself.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So would somebody kind of reach out for your support
if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it
sounds like you work with people who are mid level
or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying
our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization
and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to
move to that next level, they could reach out to
you for some support around how to make that ask.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work
with now, I've been with them since their promotion because
they have grown in their awareness of what they have
capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside
of what people expected them to do, and they have
wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their
(14:20):
work and that could connect to a different pay grade,
a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry
based approach that I have with folks, I never present
answers for people I ask a lot of questions, and
I listen and I understand more about what people care about,
and I ask questions around their values and the alignment
(14:41):
of what they're doing the day to day. People come
to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity,
that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're
in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I
built this within my team?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
More from our conversation after the break. So there's been
lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online, around black
women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that being read
as antisocial. So can you say a little bit about,
(15:15):
like what suggestions you have for people who might be
enjoying the conversation around like how to kind of do
this dance that is sometimes required in coworking spaces if
you are not particularly fans of your coworkers.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment.
As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of
times we can be seen as the person who has
to show up and be everything for everybody, and that
often takes out our ability to be human, our humanity,
and in looking at us devoid of such humanity. It's
(15:53):
why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the
way that I expect of you absence of me considering
your personhood's culture within your organization. And then if people
are acting in that way and forwarding on that dehumanization,
if you will, then you gotta wonder, Okay, is this
the place for me? And if you are going to
stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and you're in
(16:16):
a financial position where you can stay, I would take
it down to the most fundamental level of communication, and
that is strictly technical, Like I would not go into
any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate that
from you, and so we can get over extended emotionally
(16:39):
for trying really really hard to in some instances appease
folks appeal to their sense of empathy and they might
not have it for us. So the more we do that,
the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can
also lead to further further burnout. So if you must
(16:59):
stay that, I would keep the conversation to a technical,
foundational level that is central to your subject matter expertise
in your role.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So you mentioned earlier diactive would be that some people
do the calculation and sometimes it's just not possible for
you to leave a work, please, even if you feel
like your spirit is not being felled, and you know
you feel like in Tostil maybe even in some ways.
So if someone is forced to kind of stay in
a situation because bills have to be paid, what kinds
of things would you suggest for them to continue to
take care of themselves even in that kind of environment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
First, that's join analysis of where are the spaces in
the organization where you feel you could be somewhat who
you are without being penalized for who you are, And
where are the spaces where you just know there is
little to no psychological safety. It would be a detriment
for you to show up as you are because people
(17:53):
would take advantage of it. So we need to understand
the terrain that we're working with and in those spaces,
who are the people and the same analysis and then
take that and understand who you can and frankly cannot
be in a room with alone and document document, document,
(18:14):
So that's what you could do. Technically, you keep your
scope of work very closely aligned to what you have
been assigned to do, and you readily seek the decision
maker within your team to pinpoint where in your scope
of work you are operating outside of it, either because
(18:34):
the work has been assigned to you or you have
literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more and
you can do it so that you all can have
a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled.
And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled,
you can keep doing that extra work, but then we
got to make some adjustments on the pay and the promotion.
Or you can choose, hey, that's not the work we
need to be doing, and they might say that's off
(18:56):
the work they need you to be doing anymore, then
they take some things off of your plate. Because if
you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're doing
and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly have
looked at your reality and you cannot make a transition
at this moment, then we need to decrease the amount
of stress and the input from many people into your
(19:21):
work so that you can literally make it day to day.
It can be emotionally taxing, it can be very exhausting
and it can be done with those particular instances. I
move very strategically and tactfully because I know it is
a delicate situation for that leader.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So I wonder doctor Mammae, if you can set us
straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I
feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know,
reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is
not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So
can you say a little bit about if HR is
a resource for us to go to and if not,
what are the spaces that we can kind of lean
(20:06):
on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive. Like you said,
we have been hearing and folks have been coming out
around like their interest isn't in us. It's in the
protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah, So
what else can you do? So a lot of the
folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches, It's
through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy.
(20:33):
It gives you a built in team to protect yourself
when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode
in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you.
And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a
situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there
for you, then long term that can't stay as the
(20:54):
reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces.
We just have to find the bridge to them. And
in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself
along the way. In addition to you know, attorneys, I
think is that far? I know some people has gotten
that far.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So some of the other terms that often come up
when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is
confirmation bias and the glass cliff And I know you
talk a lot about this in your work. Can you
define those terms for us?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader,
I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or
analyze whether or not this decision is the best for
our team and for the role and for the work.
And so instead of looking at the full span of
all the evidence and the train of the reality of
(21:43):
what's going on across the sector, across the role, this
leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up
with where they want to go anyway, and their decision
making confirmation bias, biasing their confirmation glass cliff. Oh, we
need to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll
(22:03):
just start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh,
our leadership does not reflect the values that we say
that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population
of folks we're working with, or our work is directly
impacted by and we need to change that. And so
(22:24):
sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also
sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis
or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central
to the survival of the organization. And sometimes organizations go, ah,
let's put the two together and let's have in some
(22:46):
cases the black woman be the leader and leaders through
this difficult, turbulent time, and to make.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Sure she has what she needs to do it, let's
promote her and voila it out together. And so it's
kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended
in leadership, but.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yet you're literally on the cliff of success and or failure.
And while you're up there, it's glass because everybody's watching you,
and so this reality of Wow, I've worked so hard
to reach this point in my career to have this
level of trust across the organization, and now I'm questioning
whether or not I'm set up for success and whether
(23:28):
or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing, ready for me
to either be successful or fail. Walking on a class cliff.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So is this typically a conscious decision by leadership? Is
it typically like, oh, let's find like a black woman
to take the fall for this, or is it that
it ends up being that way because black women are
kind of thought to be the ones who can save
everything for everybody.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't
tell you that. I know in certain commonversations, in certain
moments of crisis, some leaders realize, if we don't have
a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative,
it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And
(24:15):
sometimes people will then look towards a group of people
and see if there is someone within who is willing
and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean
that person isn't qualified for it. They've probably been qualified
and you just gave them a shot because you're struggling.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
More from our conversation after the break. So let's talk
about if we find ourselves at the pinnacle of making
this decision, right, because I think for a lot of people,
this is the life changing opportunity, right like this title,
(24:58):
there's probably lots of money, not probably a lot of resources,
which you've already talked about, right, So you're being set
up for failure. But it is I think probably like
a once in a lifetime kind of shot. And so
what kinds of things should somebody even ask themselves, like
if they recognize m this is probably not gonna end
up well for me, But do I not take the shot?
What kinds of conversation should we be having with ourselves?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Wait, it actually might end up going well for you.
It might. It just means you also might not be
set up initially to be successful. And that's where the
conversations around what you need to be successful need to
be had. And do not feel bad about it, because
at the end of the day, it is your name,
not theirs on this work. So whatever you need, it's
(25:42):
a conversation just like they need you. You come on,
you need some things.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Too, So what kinds of things might you need? To
be successful in this kind of a situation.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Who's the staff that's supporting me on this? That's huge?
Who is the staff? And do we need to hire
or externally? They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They
could be consultants, they could be contract colleagues coming in.
What's the budget and is the budget set? Because as
I get in here and I find out what we
(26:14):
need more of, we need to have more conversations about
upping the budget. That's got to be on the table.
That fluidity and that trust for them to have in
you in honoring your expertise when you say we need
more funds to do this, this and this, and of
course you're gonna be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about
(26:35):
what you share and the price points for each initiative
and what it would take in the team. But that
needs to be there money and the staff, the team,
and then thirdly, the trust to listen to what you
have said and to not actively or indirectly rather not
(26:57):
try to dismiss it, not try to undermine it. You
had me in this role for a reason. Trust what
I got to say, Listen to what I have to say.
You know, if those three things are there from the jump,
then go for it. If they aren't, but you still
want to do it because one, like you said, it
could be a life changing opportunity decision, and two it
(27:18):
can open up other avenues for you to be in
collaboration with other organizations, other sectors. So for the visibility, cool,
but make sure you, like I said, are documenting documenting documenting,
because no matter what happens on the other end, you
will have the story and the narrative and the truth
of what it took to get to that point, what
happened in the middle of it, and how you were
(27:40):
a leader through it. Because whatever the organization does, you're
one person. That's what the organization does. But you, as
a leader were essential in these parts of the work
and you led them to the best of your abilities
and to the extent of your expertise. And so you
make sure you are very clear on that narrative that
you will have to share no matter what at the end,
(28:01):
whether the initiative went the way you needed it to
go and wanted to go and the way you let it,
or folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had,
all the work you did and chose to do something differently.
That's on them. But you know what you.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Did, you know, doctor Mumby. I'm curious if there are
any pretty public examples of black women who could have
been walking off the glass cliff but then it actually
turned around to be a success for them. Are you
aware of any stories of people we could look to
for examples of this?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yes, I do. To be a black woman in the
workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized and
that in itself is like living walking, working at the
edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples all
around us. And what I will share is that, in particular,
(28:52):
I've been watching her leadership for a while and I
thought of her as you mentioned this question. So I
looked to Shila Johnson. So she was the co founder
of BT opened up Salamander, had just released some memoir
about her life, her leadership in the midst of so
much that many of us can relate to. And she's
(29:13):
definitely at least one person who has not just walked
on a glass cliff, but just shattered so many ceilings
and so many barriers and has lived to tell I
would lift her up right now.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Her memoir is definitely on my to be read list
because lots of people have had great things to say
about it. So I appreciate you sharing that example. So
we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier,
but I want us to back up a little bit
because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something
that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression.
What suggestions would you have for people who were wondering like, oh,
(29:49):
is that behavior from the coworker? Like is this something
I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would
you have there?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that? Or wasn't that?
Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern,
Look for who else they are speaking to and how
they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of
behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up
with you, you might have something here, and you keep
documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I
(30:18):
work with look to this really good framework that orders
thoughts that you have and in conversations that can feel
emotionally charged, and it's out of the management center Situation
Behavior Impact SBI. So you ground the conversation in the
situation when this occurred. Behavior, This is what I noticed
(30:42):
you did.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Impact.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
This is the impact it has had on me on
my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is
the foundation. They'll get you going. So notice the pattern
and then when you have the pattern, document have the
documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation.
Be your impact. That is a good start.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you.
That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation
that you know a large part of your work and
kind of stems from your own personal experience around like
over indexing in work versus being available to your family.
What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for
how to leave work at work so that there is
(31:23):
more of a balance in your life.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah. I like that you said, so there is more
of a balance, not so that there is a balance,
because I mean that's a practice and I don't know.
I'm really into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you
joy and make you feel a sense of being. Yeah,
I look at time, look at how you're spending your time.
So I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's
called the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop
(31:48):
around time and values that I distilled a portion of
it into a document that's on my website. You're free
to get it. Look at your time, where are you
spending it? Be honest with your self, no judgment, it's
just you looking at you. Rea's your time, how you
feeling when you're doing it, and the things that you're
doing during that time, and how you're feeling. You have
(32:08):
to that's the start time reclamation. Reclaim your time.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok,
so I want to see if you want to play
a little game with me. I don't know if you
are you on TikTok and all or pay attention to TikTok.
I mean I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially,
we're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go
too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people
are like, how do I say this thing? But in
a way that's not gonna get me fired.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I'm sorry, I want you all right.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So the first one is how do you say that's
not my job? So you talked earlier about like your
scope of work.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really
interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team
and figure out if we have the capacity to do
that and if it's within our scope at this point,
because it might not be. And if it isn't, then
I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might
have the capacities to do this.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is
I said that already are I just said that.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree
I plus one. In our earlier conversations, I connected to
that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy
to see that you also are in agreement with it.
Let's do da da da da da da da.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped
with work.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter.
But let me go back and see if we can
add this to our scope of work for quarter two
or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan
to make sure that what you were suggesting works within
our team's capacity.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh. I love that. I also love how like the
voice is like somewhere softer right, because we're like, oh,
let me try to massage this.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
The way I am I'm giving myself away now. The softer,
the softer my voice is, the more furious I am.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, So, doctor Mummy, tell us where can we stay
connected with you? It sounds like you already have at
least one great resource on your website, So tell us
what else can we find at your website? What is
the website in any social media challenge you want to
share with us?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Oh? Yeah, definitely. So my website is my name. It's
www dot yasmine, mumby dot com, y A S M
E N E m U m b y dot com.
And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint. I have meditations.
I write monthly ISH. I say ish because I'm a
human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days.
(34:39):
A monthly ISH newsletter that has all of the reflections
and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over
the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching.
So nothing I put out there is in the abstract.
It's all rooted in the practical, what's current and also
research centered so sign it for my newsletter for my
website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on
(35:01):
Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now.
And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore, y A. S.
M E N E. Underscore, the tic tac and the
threads and the Facebook. I am on LinkedIn's it's my name,
but listen, it's Instagram on the website because I just
had a ten month old and that's all I can
do right now. Let's see, I'm talking about my capacity.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples
of that. Well, thank you so much for all that
you shared today. Will be sure to include all of
that in the show notes so people can stay connected
with you.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I had a great time in this conversation with you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Hi. I'm doctor Mumby and I'm on the therapy for
thank you. Okay, Hi, I'm Yasmin and I'm on the
therapy for black Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby and I'm
on the therapy. Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby, and I'm
on the therapy for Black Girls posts And in this
(36:01):
session today we're Unpacking the Glass Cliff Phenomenon. Hi, I'm
doctor Yasmin Mumby, and I'm on the Therapy for Black
Girls podcast and we're in session today unpacking the glass
Cliff Phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I'm so appreciative of the thoughtful conversation I had with
doctor Mumby, and I hope that you enjoy today's episode.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session
four fifty five, and don't forget to text this episode
to two of your girls right now and tell them
to check it out. Did you know that you could
leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
(36:39):
the podcast. If you have thoughts about topics you'd like
to hear us discuss, drop us a message at Memo
dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let us
know what's on your mind. We just might feature it
on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in
your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us on
(37:00):
Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over
and join us in our Patreon community where black women
gather to continue conversations like this one, share their own
workplace experiences, and support one another in navigating it all.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichubu
(37:20):
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty five of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. Lately, it feels like
a lot of people are being asked to do more
(01:17):
and more at work. Teams are stretched thin, responsibilities keep expanding,
and many of us are finding ourselves carrying workloads that
don't always match the support, resources, or recognition we deserve.
For black women in particular, these dynamics can show up
in some very specific ways. One of them is the
glass cliff. Think of it as when women and especially
(01:39):
women of color, are elevated to leadership roles during moments
of crisis or instability, often when the stakes are the
highest and the margin for error is very small. Because
this conversation continues to feel relevant, maybe even more relevant
than when we first aired it, we're throwing it back
to an earlier episode that explores what it means to
navigate these dynamics while protecting your well being and leadership capacity.
(02:03):
In this conversation, I'm joined by leadership advisor and keynote speaker,
doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby is the founder of the Ringgold,
a firm that has helped some of the most impactful
organizations in the world achieve their mission critical organizational ambitions.
Her work focuses on helping leaders build sustainable organizations and
create environments where people can thrive without burning out. Together,
(02:27):
we talk about what the glass cliff is, why black
women shall often find themselves navigating it, and what it
looks like to advocate for yourself while leading in high
pressure environments. We also discuss workplace realities many of us recognize,
from navigating microaggressions and documenting your work to setting boundaries
around your capacity and communicating strategically with colleagues. If something
(02:49):
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or come talk it through with us on Patreon. Our
community is so place where black women gather to unpack
episodes like this one, share workplace experiences, and support one
another in navigating it all. You can join us at
community dot therapyfro blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank
(03:17):
you so much for joining us today, doctor Mumby.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this
conversation and to be in connection with you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Absolutely absolutely so. You are a sustainable leadership advisor? Can
you tell us what that means and what your typical
work day looks like.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most
of them identify as women Black women, from burning out.
I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines,
even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person,
so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity
so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life.
(03:56):
A lot of my professional career has been around balancing
a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that
led itself to me also focusing on my personal life
and how I can also work to have equilibrium or
at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm
not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out
in the other. And that's becoming even more important now
(04:17):
that I have a little baby who's now ten months.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one
that kick you into we having to reimagine some things.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So much of your work is really focused on creating
easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean?
To be an easeful leader.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It's a leader who is operating from the core of
their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who
takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how
is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their
productivity and the culture that we have on STAF. A
(05:00):
lot of folks and a lot of organizations get caught
up in production production, production, and that's because sometimes we
have external validators who are putting a lot of pressure
on us to perform, to be visible. And it's our
role as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to
(05:21):
support the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just
the technical to say, hey, I understand what my team
is going through. This is going on in the context
of the world. If you aren't considering that and you're
pushed for us to be more whatever, productive, more visible,
more everything with less resources happens a lot at the time.
(05:44):
If we continue down this path at this pace, this
is what the impact will be, not just on our
team morale and our team structure, but also for the
quality of our work.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So it sounds like you have worked across a variety
of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders.
Can you talk a little bit about some of the
common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff re treat
on the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally,
and what I'm noticing in working with them, we're all
dealing with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity
to take on all these transformative goals and this expansive
vision that we have for our work right now? And
(06:26):
does it have to be right now? Because right now
we're considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner
than many of us on the team already feel. So
that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my
portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject
of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So is it that people are kind of seeing so
much need that they are trying to like take on
additional task and like have the organization perform. Is that
a part of it sometimes?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the organization
where they like they have to perform at this pace
to visibly look like they're being productive. And that's a
difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level, noticing
what has been their contribution to this reality and noticing
(07:19):
the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports,
and then having the conversation with the board and or
funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas
And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes
reflects the micro. So what's going on individually with each
leader where they feel like they have to contribute to
this pace And that's where my individual coaching really kicks
(07:41):
in and where we see some changes because leadership is
an extension of who you are and yourself in the
way it's landing on others. And if we don't really
on Earth what's going on there through your leadership actions,
you just going to be having a lot of people
being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing
your own pctices of self, compassion and support.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
So I'm wondering, doctamombi, how do companies understand whether they're
following their values or whether they're trying to like hitch
to some arbitrary kind of sense of value.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping,
they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, It shows
up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in
not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor,
it shows up when something has happened in the organization
and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone
(08:38):
to come in and support them. And that's how I
typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth.
They're like, yes, me and her team can come in
here and help us objectively figure out the best path
forward and also to support people through this transition and
change management. I got to say a lot of that
effort and work comes from my comfort being in the
middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking
(09:02):
for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts.
And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself
of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and
it also helps that I was a teacher and a
community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm
used to finding solutions.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
He got a lot of experience in a lot of
different ways to do this work. It sounds.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
We all do. We all do.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So you mentioned that a majority of the clients that
you work with are often black women, and we know
that black women are often expected to have these really
high expectations, but also the pay and the promotion rates
don't necessarily kind of match up with that. So can
you tell me a little bit about what kinds of
questions black women should be asking themselves and their supervisors
if they feel like their level of work isn't necessarily
(09:54):
matching either their pay grade or their.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support
them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that,
we can talk about them. So some of the questions,
it depends on where you are in the process. So
if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal
candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're
(10:17):
in the thick of the role and you're seeing that
your work is outpacing what was initially written down about
what the role would be, these questions can be helpful.
And if you are considering whether or not you want
to stay in the role given that your work has
outgrown what initially was supposed to be within the scope
of work, these questions could be helpful. One I would
(10:39):
have the conversation with the decision maker, because having the
conversation with folks who don't have decision making power can
distract from the purpose of why you need to have
such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I first
narrow in is this the decision maker? And if this
person isn't, then I need to find out who is
so I don't waste my time. One of the questions
(11:01):
I have folks consider is what's the scope of work
initially laid out for this role or what has been
the scope of work? What are you doing now within
the scope of work, how have you exceeded the limits
of what the scope of work was supposed to protect?
And then what is the difference between the two, And
how has that impacted not just your workload, but the
(11:24):
time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality.
Most often you've been able to keep up high quality
work even being limited and stretched, And how has it
impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're
taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't
have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality,
(11:45):
then chances are you might be taking on some of
their work that they should have been doing or could
be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown
within their scope of work instead of yours. So those
are their first foundational because we've got to get really
clear with the evidence. What do we see? I want
to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues.
How are you being treated? Are people asking you, pinging you?
(12:09):
Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft Teams? Are
they pinging you big eleven times?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Have you done this?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
How's this going?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Can you give me an update on this. Chances are
folks have already internalized that you are at this leadership
role taking on more of this work, and are treating
you such and have the expectations of you. But yet
that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated formally into
your scope over for your job description, and it hasn't
(12:37):
translated formally into the resources money you need to bring
on the team or to support the team that you're
supposed to have or do have to do more. And
so that's the beginning, just the beginning. That's the analysis.
Second part the process, we go through, Okay, what's the strategy,
Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person?
What do they care about most? I would get them
(12:58):
to understand what you're going to going through. How do
we build empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we
go into actually role playing and mapping it out. What
are we doing? And then fourth we go back to evaluation.
What has happened? What are the results? That's kind of valuation.
So this all occurs within an engagement of coaching around
(13:18):
your leadership development, because so often we're out here on
our own trying to figure it out and also implementing
in a way that can feel isolating, even though other
folks have gone through what you were going through are
going through it alongside you, and that sense of community
helps embolden you to stand up for yourself.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
So would somebody kind of reach out for your support
if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it
sounds like you work with people who are mid level
or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying
our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization
and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to
move to that next level, they could reach out to
you for some support around how to make that ask.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work
with now, I've been with them since their promotion because
they have grown in their awareness of what they have
capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside
of what people expected them to do, and they have
wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their
(14:20):
work and that could connect to a different pay grade,
a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry
based approach that I have with folks, I never present
answers for people I ask a lot of questions, and
I listen and I understand more about what people care about,
and I ask questions around their values and the alignment
(14:41):
of what they're doing the day to day. People come
to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity,
that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're
in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I
built this within my team?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
More from our conversation after the break. So there's been
lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online, around black
women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that being read
as antisocial. So can you say a little bit about,
(15:15):
like what suggestions you have for people who might be
enjoying the conversation around like how to kind of do
this dance that is sometimes required in coworking spaces if
you are not particularly fans of your coworkers.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment.
As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of
times we can be seen as the person who has
to show up and be everything for everybody, and that
often takes out our ability to be human, our humanity,
and in looking at us devoid of such humanity. It's
(15:53):
why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the
way that I expect of you absence of me considering
your personhood's culture within your organization. And then if people
are acting in that way and forwarding on that dehumanization,
if you will, then you gotta wonder, Okay, is this
the place for me? And if you are going to
stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and you're in
(16:16):
a financial position where you can stay, I would take
it down to the most fundamental level of communication, and
that is strictly technical, Like I would not go into
any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate that
from you, and so we can get over extended emotionally
(16:39):
for trying really really hard to in some instances appease
folks appeal to their sense of empathy and they might
not have it for us. So the more we do that,
the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can
also lead to further further burnout. So if you must
(16:59):
stay that, I would keep the conversation to a technical,
foundational level that is central to your subject matter expertise
in your role.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So you mentioned earlier diactive would be that some people
do the calculation and sometimes it's just not possible for
you to leave a work, please, even if you feel
like your spirit is not being felled, and you know
you feel like in Tostil maybe even in some ways.
So if someone is forced to kind of stay in
a situation because bills have to be paid, what kinds
of things would you suggest for them to continue to
take care of themselves even in that kind of environment.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
First, that's join analysis of where are the spaces in
the organization where you feel you could be somewhat who
you are without being penalized for who you are, And
where are the spaces where you just know there is
little to no psychological safety. It would be a detriment
for you to show up as you are because people
(17:53):
would take advantage of it. So we need to understand
the terrain that we're working with and in those spaces,
who are the people and the same analysis and then
take that and understand who you can and frankly cannot
be in a room with alone and document document, document,
(18:14):
So that's what you could do. Technically, you keep your
scope of work very closely aligned to what you have
been assigned to do, and you readily seek the decision
maker within your team to pinpoint where in your scope
of work you are operating outside of it, either because
(18:34):
the work has been assigned to you or you have
literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more and
you can do it so that you all can have
a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled.
And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled,
you can keep doing that extra work, but then we
got to make some adjustments on the pay and the promotion.
Or you can choose, hey, that's not the work we
need to be doing, and they might say that's off
(18:56):
the work they need you to be doing anymore, then
they take some things off of your plate. Because if
you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're doing
and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly have
looked at your reality and you cannot make a transition
at this moment, then we need to decrease the amount
of stress and the input from many people into your
(19:21):
work so that you can literally make it day to day.
It can be emotionally taxing, it can be very exhausting
and it can be done with those particular instances. I
move very strategically and tactfully because I know it is
a delicate situation for that leader.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So I wonder doctor Mammae, if you can set us
straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I
feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know,
reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is
not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So
can you say a little bit about if HR is
a resource for us to go to and if not,
what are the spaces that we can kind of lean
(20:06):
on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive. Like you said,
we have been hearing and folks have been coming out
around like their interest isn't in us. It's in the
protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah, So
what else can you do? So a lot of the
folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches, It's
through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy.
(20:33):
It gives you a built in team to protect yourself
when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode
in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you.
And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a
situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there
for you, then long term that can't stay as the
(20:54):
reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces.
We just have to find the bridge to them. And
in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself
along the way. In addition to you know, attorneys, I
think is that far? I know some people has gotten
that far.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So some of the other terms that often come up
when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is
confirmation bias and the glass cliff And I know you
talk a lot about this in your work. Can you
define those terms for us?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader,
I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or
analyze whether or not this decision is the best for
our team and for the role and for the work.
And so instead of looking at the full span of
all the evidence and the train of the reality of
(21:43):
what's going on across the sector, across the role, this
leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up
with where they want to go anyway, and their decision
making confirmation bias, biasing their confirmation glass cliff. Oh, we
need to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll
(22:03):
just start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh,
our leadership does not reflect the values that we say
that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population
of folks we're working with, or our work is directly
impacted by and we need to change that. And so
(22:24):
sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also
sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis
or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central
to the survival of the organization. And sometimes organizations go, ah,
let's put the two together and let's have in some
(22:46):
cases the black woman be the leader and leaders through
this difficult, turbulent time, and to make.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Sure she has what she needs to do it, let's
promote her and voila it out together. And so it's
kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended
in leadership, but.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yet you're literally on the cliff of success and or failure.
And while you're up there, it's glass because everybody's watching you,
and so this reality of Wow, I've worked so hard
to reach this point in my career to have this
level of trust across the organization, and now I'm questioning
whether or not I'm set up for success and whether
(23:28):
or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing, ready for me
to either be successful or fail. Walking on a class cliff.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So is this typically a conscious decision by leadership? Is
it typically like, oh, let's find like a black woman
to take the fall for this, or is it that
it ends up being that way because black women are
kind of thought to be the ones who can save
everything for everybody.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't
tell you that. I know in certain commonversations, in certain
moments of crisis, some leaders realize, if we don't have
a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative,
it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And
(24:15):
sometimes people will then look towards a group of people
and see if there is someone within who is willing
and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean
that person isn't qualified for it. They've probably been qualified
and you just gave them a shot because you're struggling.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
More from our conversation after the break. So let's talk
about if we find ourselves at the pinnacle of making
this decision, right, because I think for a lot of people,
this is the life changing opportunity, right like this title,
(24:58):
there's probably lots of money, not probably a lot of resources,
which you've already talked about, right, So you're being set
up for failure. But it is I think probably like
a once in a lifetime kind of shot. And so
what kinds of things should somebody even ask themselves, like
if they recognize m this is probably not gonna end
up well for me, But do I not take the shot?
What kinds of conversation should we be having with ourselves?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Wait, it actually might end up going well for you.
It might. It just means you also might not be
set up initially to be successful. And that's where the
conversations around what you need to be successful need to
be had. And do not feel bad about it, because
at the end of the day, it is your name,
not theirs on this work. So whatever you need, it's
(25:42):
a conversation just like they need you. You come on,
you need some things.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Too, So what kinds of things might you need? To
be successful in this kind of a situation.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Who's the staff that's supporting me on this? That's huge?
Who is the staff? And do we need to hire
or externally? They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They
could be consultants, they could be contract colleagues coming in.
What's the budget and is the budget set? Because as
I get in here and I find out what we
(26:14):
need more of, we need to have more conversations about
upping the budget. That's got to be on the table.
That fluidity and that trust for them to have in
you in honoring your expertise when you say we need
more funds to do this, this and this, and of
course you're gonna be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about
(26:35):
what you share and the price points for each initiative
and what it would take in the team. But that
needs to be there money and the staff, the team,
and then thirdly, the trust to listen to what you
have said and to not actively or indirectly rather not
(26:57):
try to dismiss it, not try to undermine it. You
had me in this role for a reason. Trust what
I got to say, Listen to what I have to say.
You know, if those three things are there from the jump,
then go for it. If they aren't, but you still
want to do it because one, like you said, it
could be a life changing opportunity decision, and two it
(27:18):
can open up other avenues for you to be in
collaboration with other organizations, other sectors. So for the visibility, cool,
but make sure you, like I said, are documenting documenting documenting,
because no matter what happens on the other end, you
will have the story and the narrative and the truth
of what it took to get to that point, what
happened in the middle of it, and how you were
(27:40):
a leader through it. Because whatever the organization does, you're
one person. That's what the organization does. But you, as
a leader were essential in these parts of the work
and you led them to the best of your abilities
and to the extent of your expertise. And so you
make sure you are very clear on that narrative that
you will have to share no matter what at the end,
(28:01):
whether the initiative went the way you needed it to
go and wanted to go and the way you let it,
or folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had,
all the work you did and chose to do something differently.
That's on them. But you know what you.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Did, you know, doctor Mumby. I'm curious if there are
any pretty public examples of black women who could have
been walking off the glass cliff but then it actually
turned around to be a success for them. Are you
aware of any stories of people we could look to
for examples of this?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yes, I do. To be a black woman in the
workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized and
that in itself is like living walking, working at the
edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples all
around us. And what I will share is that, in particular,
(28:52):
I've been watching her leadership for a while and I
thought of her as you mentioned this question. So I
looked to Shila Johnson. So she was the co founder
of BT opened up Salamander, had just released some memoir
about her life, her leadership in the midst of so
much that many of us can relate to. And she's
(29:13):
definitely at least one person who has not just walked
on a glass cliff, but just shattered so many ceilings
and so many barriers and has lived to tell I
would lift her up right now.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Her memoir is definitely on my to be read list
because lots of people have had great things to say
about it. So I appreciate you sharing that example. So
we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier,
but I want us to back up a little bit
because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something
that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression.
What suggestions would you have for people who were wondering like, oh,
(29:49):
is that behavior from the coworker? Like is this something
I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would
you have there?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that? Or wasn't that?
Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern,
Look for who else they are speaking to and how
they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of
behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up
with you, you might have something here, and you keep
documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I
(30:18):
work with look to this really good framework that orders
thoughts that you have and in conversations that can feel
emotionally charged, and it's out of the management center Situation
Behavior Impact SBI. So you ground the conversation in the
situation when this occurred. Behavior, This is what I noticed
(30:42):
you did.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Impact.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
This is the impact it has had on me on
my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is
the foundation. They'll get you going. So notice the pattern
and then when you have the pattern, document have the
documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation.
Be your impact. That is a good start.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you.
That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation
that you know a large part of your work and
kind of stems from your own personal experience around like
over indexing in work versus being available to your family.
What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for
how to leave work at work so that there is
(31:23):
more of a balance in your life.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah. I like that you said, so there is more
of a balance, not so that there is a balance,
because I mean that's a practice and I don't know.
I'm really into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you
joy and make you feel a sense of being. Yeah,
I look at time, look at how you're spending your time.
So I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's
called the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop
(31:48):
around time and values that I distilled a portion of
it into a document that's on my website. You're free
to get it. Look at your time, where are you
spending it? Be honest with your self, no judgment, it's
just you looking at you. Rea's your time, how you
feeling when you're doing it, and the things that you're
doing during that time, and how you're feeling. You have
(32:08):
to that's the start time reclamation. Reclaim your time.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok,
so I want to see if you want to play
a little game with me. I don't know if you
are you on TikTok and all or pay attention to TikTok.
I mean I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially,
we're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go
too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people
are like, how do I say this thing? But in
a way that's not gonna get me fired.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I'm sorry, I want you all right.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So the first one is how do you say that's
not my job? So you talked earlier about like your
scope of work.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really
interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team
and figure out if we have the capacity to do
that and if it's within our scope at this point,
because it might not be. And if it isn't, then
I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might
have the capacities to do this.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is
I said that already are I just said that.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree
I plus one. In our earlier conversations, I connected to
that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy
to see that you also are in agreement with it.
Let's do da da da da da da da.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped
with work.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter.
But let me go back and see if we can
add this to our scope of work for quarter two
or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan
to make sure that what you were suggesting works within
our team's capacity.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh. I love that. I also love how like the
voice is like somewhere softer right, because we're like, oh,
let me try to massage this.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
The way I am I'm giving myself away now. The softer,
the softer my voice is, the more furious I am.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, So, doctor Mummy, tell us where can we stay
connected with you? It sounds like you already have at
least one great resource on your website, So tell us
what else can we find at your website? What is
the website in any social media challenge you want to
share with us?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Oh? Yeah, definitely. So my website is my name. It's
www dot yasmine, mumby dot com, y A S M
E N E m U m b y dot com.
And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint. I have meditations.
I write monthly ISH. I say ish because I'm a
human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days.
(34:39):
A monthly ISH newsletter that has all of the reflections
and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over
the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching.
So nothing I put out there is in the abstract.
It's all rooted in the practical, what's current and also
research centered so sign it for my newsletter for my
website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on
(35:01):
Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now.
And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore, y A. S.
M E N E. Underscore, the tic tac and the
threads and the Facebook. I am on LinkedIn's it's my name,
but listen, it's Instagram on the website because I just
had a ten month old and that's all I can
do right now. Let's see, I'm talking about my capacity.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples
of that. Well, thank you so much for all that
you shared today. Will be sure to include all of
that in the show notes so people can stay connected
with you.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I had a great time in this conversation with you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Hi. I'm doctor Mumby and I'm on the therapy for
thank you. Okay, Hi, I'm Yasmin and I'm on the
therapy for black Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby and I'm
on the therapy. Hi. I'm doctor Yasmine Mumby, and I'm
on the therapy for Black Girls posts And in this
(36:01):
session today we're Unpacking the Glass Cliff Phenomenon. Hi, I'm
doctor Yasmin Mumby, and I'm on the Therapy for Black
Girls podcast and we're in session today unpacking the glass
Cliff Phenomenon.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I'm so appreciative of the thoughtful conversation I had with
doctor Mumby, and I hope that you enjoy today's episode.
To learn more about her and her work, visit the
show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session
four fifty five, and don't forget to text this episode
to two of your girls right now and tell them
to check it out. Did you know that you could
leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
(36:39):
the podcast. If you have thoughts about topics you'd like
to hear us discuss, drop us a message at Memo
dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let us
know what's on your mind. We just might feature it
on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in
your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us on
(37:00):
Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over
and join us in our Patreon community where black women
gather to continue conversations like this one, share their own
workplace experiences, and support one another in navigating it all.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichubu
(37:20):
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
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