April 8, 2026 • 46 mins
Hair always seems to be a hot topic, doesn’t it? From what style is “acceptable” to wear at work, to the politics of what’s considered “going natural,” hair is, no pun intended, always on the brain. And as Black women especially, there is so much tied to our hair–it can dictate how we’re perceived in certain spaces, signal lifestyle choices, and can reflect much more than a simple aesthetic preference.
Amidst all the hair discourse, it’s important that we reclaim the space we want (or don’t want) hair to take up in our lives. Today, I’m chatting with our Director of Podcast & Digital Content, Ellice Ellis all about my hair journey and the different shapes it’s taken throughout my life.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty eight of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Hair always seems
to be a hot topic, doesn't it, From what style
(01:18):
is acceptable to where it works. The politics of what's
considered going natural hair is no pun intended always on
the brain, and as Black women especially, there's so much
tie to our hair. You can dictate how we're perceived
in certain spaces, signal lifestyle choices and can reflect much
more than a simple esthetic preference. Amidst all the hair
(01:39):
discoursed it's important that we reclaim the space we want
or don't want hair to take up in our lives. Today,
I'm chatting with someone you've heard on the show many times,
our director of Podcasts and Digital Content, Elise Ellis. In
our conversation, we get into my own hair journey and
unpack the different shapes is taken throughout my life. If
something resonates with you while enjoying now conversation, please share
(02:01):
with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session,
or join us over in our patreons talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I'm happy to be here today because I think as
a team, we've talked a lot about like pop culture,
and we have a lot of discussions about like the
holidays and our family traditions from that, but I don't
think we've ever talked about maybe how you specifically, or
how we have a team full of black women care
for our hair.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
And honestly, there's no time better than the present.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
This is always a relevant conversation, but I do feel
like right now in these like TikTok streets, even as
new black haircare brands or brands targeted towards curly hair
come out. There's an involving conversation around the choice to
wear your natural hair, the pressures some could say to
where your natural hair. So that's what we're here to
(02:59):
talk about today, and I wanted to start by asking
you about how you wore your hair growing up, especially
because when I watch a movie or a TV show
with the black woman, I think that there's this one stereotype,
journey or experience that someone may have which I know
not to be true. So tell me about how hair
(03:21):
was talked about in your household, and then what you were.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Doing with your hair.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So my first answer is I was not doing anything
with my hair because that was fully my mother's job.
And I think a lot of it was around like preservation, right,
not wanting me to get to experimental in terms of style,
so that there wouldn't be a lot of breakage and stuff.
And I definitely was somebody who grew up with ponytails
and like plants, not a lot of braids, because I
(03:48):
don't think my mother actually knew how to braid, which
unfortunately has translated to me, which means I also cannot braid,
which I think hampers a lot of what I would
like to do with my hair, but I can't actually breid.
But I would have like ponytails, like four ponytails or
like whatever when I was much younger, and I think
in maybe high school is when I started maybe probably
(04:09):
doing more of my own hair. So I know I
went through a period with bangs. I remember some crimps,
so there was a crimping iron involved, but I don't
think it was really until high school when I was
the one who was making decisions about my own hair
and how I wanted to style it.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When you were younger, did you perceive your hair as, oh,
I have curly hair, like what was your own vantage
point of your hair?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So I definitely was somebody who would get like straight eyes,
like I definitely remember, but that only happened on special occasions,
right like I remember like right before east or Mother's Day,
like sitting, and we had old school straightening cones at
the time, not the ones you plug in. I remember
vividly like it being on the iron and like fire
and having to hold my ear so my hair would
be straight. I think for a couple of days around
(04:53):
those holidays, but most of the time, my hair was
like plaided up, so I don't ever think I remember
using the word curly, though I don't know that I
had a real connection to like the texture of my hair.
And I'm trying to remember at what point did I
get the pressing comb and the jaw because at some
point my mom did actually give me I guess what
(05:13):
was a kitty relaxer. It was called a PCJ a
pressing comb in the jawer. When I'm trying to remember
how old I was when that first happened, probably before
high school, but I don't actually remember how old I was.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
That's interesting. I've never had a relaxer. I do remember
like the first time referring to or like understanding that
like my hair was curly, and it was whenever or
around the time where like the brand it was called
kinky curly came out and they had like not today.
And I have an older cousin who like me, we
(05:49):
both have just a lot of hair, and I think
she had started using that.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
My mom was like, you should use this for her.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And I still was getting like four braids or like
individuals or like braids in the front and like a
twist down in the back. But I don't even think
we would call it like a twist out or anything.
But I remember that being me, like, oh, my hair
is curly, and there are specific products for curly hair.
And then I remember going to like starting to go
(06:16):
to the hair salon and uniquely remembering like comments about
my hair about like she should get a perm or
her hair is a lot, which I think has colored
so much of like how I experienced hair slans. But
you said you started getting your hair or you were,
like you experimented with bangs and crimps?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Were you going to salans? Were you're doing your own hair?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And like how did that influence your relationship with getting
your hair done by other people?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Probably most of my childhood it was done by either
my mom or one of my aunts, so I have
my mom has six sisters, so like there was no
shortage of like kitchen titians as they have been called.
But at some point, I think for like special occasions,
maybe like dances or stuff, like I would go to
like the local musician. I mean, most of the audience
knows I'm from a very small town in Louisiana, Like
(07:03):
there was not a strip mall or places you went
to where there were multiple beauticians to choose from. It
was like the one person in town who was doing hair,
and so I think she would probably do like roller
sets on my hair for like certain occasions, but most
of it was actually my mom or my aunt.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
How did that like affect the relationship you had with
your mom outside of it, and the relationship you have
with your mom and beauty in general.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So I feel like there was a lot of I
don't know that I'm tenderheaded, but I definitely remember a
lot of my mom saying sit still and like detangling
feeling painful for sure, But I don't necessarily remember that
being connected to like larger conversations of beauty or anything like.
I don't think there were, at least I'm not remembering
any conversations around, oh, your hair looks like this, and
(07:51):
like other people's hair looks like that. Like it feels
like there was very much the expectation that as little
girls like you bore plats. But again, I'm not remembering
at what point did the relaxer was introduced, And it
probably was around making detangling easier, right, and like that
is just the thing that people were doing. So I
feel like after I started getting the pressing comb and
(08:13):
a jow then like, I continue to be relaxed until
I cut it out in two thousand and nine. So
there was a large part of my life where I
was definitely getting relaxers and sometimes my mom would do them.
But I think as I got older, like high school
and later, for sure I was going to a beautician
to get my hair done, to get relaxed.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
A lot of people talk about quote unquote like going natural,
like it's this one single moment, and I think it
looks really different from everyone. For me, I've never had
a perm or there's just like a heidened commitment to
whether it's like a twist out or trying to wear
your hair curly over time.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, so I had to go back on Facebook to
actually figure out what this journey was for me because
I was like, when did I like actually start this
natural journey? And I have a fate of an album
on Facebook called with My Hair Back and Forth My
Natural Hair Journey, and the date is November two thousand
and nine, so I know that's when it started. And
so for me, that was cutting off all of my hair.
(09:15):
So I probably had pretty long, relaxed hair, and I
think I started by like growing out the relaxer and
cutting it a little shorter and shorter, and then in
November two thousand and nine did the first big chop
where I had probably less than an inch of hair,
and I think at the time, I was just really
curious about what the natural texture of my hair looked like.
(09:36):
I also think that that was when we were seeing
so much of the conversations around a natural hair right,
Like it did feel like there was this movement, So
I know, curly Nikki was a website that I read
up a lot on, and there was this huge community
of people who were also like transitioning to natural land,
trying to figure out what does it look like to
take care of our hair now? What does it mean
(09:58):
to be in this twa stage, which was the teeny
weeni afro right when that's where I was when I
first cut mine off. So it was a process I
think of like learning what does it mean now to
take care of my hair and like not having enough
hair for a ponytail, which was really new for me.
But that was definitely the beginning of my journey. Was
November two thousand and nine when I did my first
(10:19):
big job.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Was there any fear, any anxieties, any just general kind
of nervousness about being in a new stage, in a
new chapter with your hair and something that you may
not have seen other people around you doing or growing up,
or you saw it online, but it might not have
been like your neighbor, your colleague, or like that.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It was still an early part of the movement.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it definitely was still early, and I think specifically
in my family. As a matter of fact, I remember
like cutting off all my hair and not actually telling
my mother about it because I knew she would not approve,
And this time, like I was into my career, so
like even the idea that my mother wouldn't approve of
my hair sounds a little ridiculous. But I didn't tell
(11:02):
anybody that I was doing it besides friends who I
knew would be supportive, because it did still, even at
that time, feel like something that I might get like
backlash around. There wasn't anybody else in my family who
was natural at the time. All of my aunts and
cousins I think, were still getting relaxes, and so in
two thousand and nineties, it did still feel very much
like something that I had to do in secret. I
(11:23):
mean kind of just showed up. Like I'm guessing, like
did I show up for Christmas or Thanksgiving that year
and just surprise them? I probably I feel like I
probably told them at least beforehand, but definitely not before
I cut it all off.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's so interesting that we can only speak from the
view of a black woman, but that you would even
have to tell someone.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like, hey, guys, I couldn't right right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Instead of just like showing up with your hair, how
it is? What rules, if any, did you have around
your hair before that you realized once you cut it?
And then what rules or just what did you notice
you had long health beliefs you had about your hair
as your journey being natural went on.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I think that it was an unspoken rule that
like long hair was like the healthiest, right, like that
that is what it meant, and that that was a
goal to have really long hair. And so I think
even when I was relaxed when I would cut my
hair shorter, like there were all these like well why
would you cut all your hair and like, oh my gosh,
it was so beautiful. There was a very like long
(12:27):
unspoken rule that long hair was like the ideal and
that's what you should be trying to attain. But I
also was never really experimental with my hair, and I
think I'm trying to think, like did most of my
I feel like at some point my mom maybe has
experimented with color, but never like a, oh, let's try
red hair like a purple stripe, or like, I feel
(12:49):
like that is something that I'm like really excited that
kids and like young folks do now, But that was
never I don't remember ever having my hair died before
probably grad school or something, right, Oh, And so I
think that that was also an unspoken thing that you
kind of lift your hair alone besides a relaxer, right, Like,
so you weren't doing any like experimental colors or like
(13:09):
you know, just getting too adventurous with your hair, just
kind of like leave it alone, let it do its thing.
And I think I felt more emboldened to be more
experimental in trying new things after I actually went natural.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's funny to say that my mom always had short
turr hair like around her like collarbone, and I remember
when she died blonde. I remember when she died red,
like I remember the color journeys. And then my older
sister started to cut her hair too, And I feel
like the best way to describe it is if you've
(13:44):
seen like pretty and pink or the breakfast Club, like
Molly Ring, Like that was her hair. It was like
very feathered like that, but it was red, it was blond.
But me, I was always so scared to do anything
with my hair, like I think I maybe one time
my box died, I did like red as a streak.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And it fell out. It looks a mess.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And then my younger sister, starting maybe early high school,
purple hair, purple streak and has carried that, always had.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Some hint of purple on her hair.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And I look back and I'm like, woo, what would
I have done in high school if I had the
courage to experiment with my hair? And I'm wondering, what
would you have done if you had the courage or
just even the mindset to experiment.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think I probably would have tried short hair much sooner.
I actually really liked short hair, like just as a
look on me, and it is typically so much easier
to manage. But that definitely was not something that I
felt emboldened to do in high school. I'm trying to
think if I even had a bob. I don't think so.
I feel like I probably was much later in life
(14:53):
before there was ever any talk of like wanting to
cut my hair like into a style like I probably
got trim just to kind of to keep the hair healthy,
but an actual style I don't think I experimented with
until probably college.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I had a.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Bob in it was either the fourth or fifth grade,
and I looked back at that photo, I'm like, oh,
you look so confident, And now, as someone who wears
my hair in a bob mostly when it's straight, I'm
like the seeds were always there, like it was.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Do you remember a conversation with your mom around wanting
to cut your hair too a bob? But like, how
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I think it what it was is I started going
to the Dominican Salon to get blowouts, and I when
I know, I think I see a lot of like
younger after Latina girls who have this kind of like
short tucked in bob hairstyund So I think one day
at the Dominican Salon it was chosen for me.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
It wasn't a choice, but I was.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I don't think I was like scared or mad or
crying because it looked so good, it looked so full.
And what I've experienced is like, I know I can
grow my hair longer, but how I feel the most confident,
how it feels the most manageable, And when my curls
look the best are when.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
My hairs in abob. So I'm kind of like, if
it's not broken, don't fix it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So we're talking about all these different styles that you
can do, and outside of the binary of like natural
and relax, there's braids, there's wigs, and I think there's
a lot of kind of joy and like you said,
freedom of expression when you can be that versatile with
your hair. But I also think there's a lot of
labor in that too, a lot of pressure like maybe
(16:34):
you should be trying the style, or this is better
for growth, or oh, if you have this space shape, you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Should try out this.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And I'm curious from your lens, can that versatility like
it can be freedom can also really be like a
friction point or confusing for our identity.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Ooh for identity. Okay, I'm gonna come back to that point.
But I do feel like there's a lot of friction
and a lot of labor just associated with like it
feels like a lot, right. I think that there's sometimes
a stereotype that, like black women are good with their hair, right,
like that we could just naturally know how to do
those things. And I am not right, Like I already
(17:12):
told you, I don't know how to breathe, Like I
can't even really part straight. It has made I think
it difficult for me to like be maybe as adventurous
as I would like without having to go to my
stylist to get that kind of stuff done. And so
I think sometimes the friction comes from resource wise, you
got to pay money for somebody to do it, or
(17:32):
find the right wigs, or it just feels like there
are so many choices now that I think a lot
of the friction comes from that. But I do think
it could pose some challenges to identity if you feel
like that is something you have to do, right, that
being a black woman or a black girl equals this,
that it is somebody who has to change up the
style all the time, and just because those choices exist,
(17:54):
like you have to feed into that. I do think
it's great for people who want to experiment and do
lots of different things. But I also think it's okay
if you decide that that's not your thing, right, Like,
I think the idea that there are these choices is
really cool, but I think it is still really important
to stay true to who you are, and I feel
like you have to choose one way to show up
as a black woman. More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Now, I want to preference this next question.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was barely thought of when these moments happened, but
from my understanding, we'd see people like Indiari, Warren Hill,
Maxine Shaw, these black women in pop culture who were
wearing their hair natural, and when we think about a
lot of other black pop culture icons black celebrities, that
(18:51):
was not what we saw. What do you think, whether
or not that was your specific entry point, how do
you think seeing those women has shifted people's perception of
their own beauty, perception of their hair.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Ooh, I think that that was huge, right, like Indiary,
Lauren Hell, like, all of that was a real moment.
I think Lauren Hill actually was first because that came
out when I was in college. I think Indiary was
a little later, Yeah, a little later. Yeah, But I
think that those were huge. I mean, and even in
conversations we've had on the podcast, just in terms of
what the music industry has been and like women who
(19:25):
looked like laurenhal and Indiary presenting with their natural hair
in its natural texture, I think really opened the doors
for lots of different people to see themselves and to
be like, oh, this can be popular as well. So
I think it opened a lot of doors in the
music industry. But I think the larger and greater representation
it offered for black girls on screen I think was
(19:47):
also huge, right, Like, so it admit that you did
not have to look only one way, right, Like, you
didn't have to have hair like Janet Jackson or Mariah
Carey or some of the more mainstream artists like you
could also look like this and be seen as beautiful.
And so I think that there's not enough said about
how those artists in the ways that they opened the
(20:07):
doors for other people in terms of artistry, but also
just what it meant to Black women and black girls
at large to see themselves represented in that way.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Today, we just like we have so many women, so
many people generally that we can look at and say, oh,
I want to wear my hair like this or this
is empowering me to wear my hair natural. I do
think we have ooh, we have too many options actually,
like we're sometimes buying too many products. And you talked
a little bit about I think it was like pretty
(20:38):
Nikki and the types of people who were online very
early in the natural hair movement, but like humorous a
little what were the products, Like, what was it like
going to a store trying to find products and what
were your staples back then?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, so I don't think you were going to the
store to buy anything, like I feel like a lot
of the conversation was around like having to order stuff online.
So naturallycurly dot Com I think was another really big
website at the time, and that was like one of
the main marketplaces where you could go to find some
of these like natural hair curly hair products. But I'm
(21:12):
pretty sure Shamee Moisture was my first the highbiscus curly
soufle smoothing something something. I remember the smell very vividly,
but it was the first product that I found that
actually worked for my hair, And I feel like Shae
Moisture was also one of the first that you could
eventually buy in the storage right, like I think it
was in walgreas maybe Walmart. But at the time, there
(21:33):
was a lot of having to spend money to like
shift stuff because people were only making it in smaller badges.
Like I think Carol's daughter had like a line at
that point Shamee Moisture, like I said, But a lot
of people also were like concocting things in their kitchens,
right there were all these avocado this and make this
with mayonnaise or whatever, right like in so people were
(21:56):
also getting very I think brave and putting together stuff
in their kitchens to try to work with our hair,
just because at the time. Now, of course now you
have whole aisles and stores dedicated to natural hair, but
at the time it was still very slim pickings. So
I'm pretty sure Shade Moisture and the Kinky Curly now today,
once I was introduced to that, that was one of
(22:17):
my favorite products, but it was very slim pickings at
the time to find products that actually worked for your hair.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Honestly, with the Kinky Curly not today.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I still buy it to if I can find it,
because it's a little hard to find.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
A house.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
We're talking about detangling.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes, gold stars. Gold Stars are detangler for.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
She was going my hair and I'm hearing I'm having
flashbacks like sit still great product though, tell us about
everyone wants to know this, doctor Joy. I wanted to
know it for years. I mean, the people online want
to know it. Tell us about your haircare routine.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Now, oh gosh, So I feel like it is pretty minimal.
So I cut Let's see, I've cut it again. At
the end of last year, I cut in colored. So
this is the first time I've had like a reddish
brownish bobbish. That's how I cut it at the end
of last year. But it has grown out and I'm
not sure yet if I'm gonna, like keep it shorter
(23:11):
or if I'm gonna let it grow out. Because I also,
while I like the idea of styling, I do not
want to be the one who's actually having to style.
So like this bun is what I want to be
able to do with my hair. But I feel like
I have had like a I won't say strained, but
I feel like there has been an interesting pivot in
my relationship to my hair when I started doing more
(23:32):
media work. Because left to my own devices, I like
to wear my hair like in a big wild afro,
just wild and like curly. What I found though, is
that I didn't like how like that always showed up
in film, right, like if the angle is not right,
or like if the twist out did not come out
like the way that I wanted, which we know twist outs,
(23:54):
like they are so temperamental, like you gotta have it
perfectly dry, the technique gotta be perfect. And so I
feel like that has introduced like this tension into my
relationship with my hair that I didn't necessarily expect because
I want to look my best on camera, right, but
if I am not skilled enough to do that, and
if I'm like working somewhere that didn't actually have a
set with a black woman who knew how to do
(24:16):
me natural hair, then that meant I was responsible for it,
and then I end up not liking it. That is
something that I have been kind of going back and
forth with, like, Okay, what is the easiest way for
me to wear my hair where I can get pretty
consistent results no matter like what I'm doing. I don't
know that I actually have an answer for that yet,
(24:37):
but I think shorter has been working a little better
for me to kind of manage myself if I'm doing
like some kind of media or camera work, but usually
I am doing some kind of twists outs, like when
it was longer, I'm usually doing some kind of twist
outs or a washing go. But again going back to
the conversation around dtangling, that is a nightmare, todtangle. After
(24:58):
your hair has been in the washing go for some.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Time, what are your washing go?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Holy Grail products like Mount rushmore.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay, so I feel like I have been using Pattern
pretty consistently since it has come out like that is
probably my favorite shampoo and conditioner for sure. The Dew
Moose is great for twist outs, but I have also
now started experimenting with it as a roller set and
(25:26):
am also finding really good results with that. So my
hair was like dad like in a bit of a
roller set in the past couple of weeks, and then
I use the Do for that and that has worked
really well. I've used Sacred, so I don't know that
there are Holy Grail products for me, but I heard
that there's a new line of Sacred products that includes
like a gail in a moose that I am excited
to try. But I have not tried yet, but I
(25:49):
really like fair team, right, like can I get a
can I get a box of these new goodies?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
The whole team is like, the whole team is natural for.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
The we want to try out all these realms.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
I address emails, it works up in coupon codes.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Whatever, whatever, whatever you would like. But I really like
the smell of Sacreds shampoo and conditioner, and so I
kind of go back and forth between them and Pattern.
But I do use Sacreds clarifying shampoo when I need
to do a clarify because I have product build up
or whatever. So maybe once every two months or so
I will use that. But I really like the smell
of Sacred products. Is there anything else I've been using? No,
(26:27):
I feel like that's it. Like Pattern and Sacred and
the do have really been holding me down for quite
some time now.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I want to circle back to something that you said
earlier about being on Camerara and feeling like you have
to present a certain way all the time, and sometimes
it's less about like oh I don't like my hair
like this, I'll have a wash and go and I'm like,
why are there like sunlight gaps like my fro does
not feel as full. Definitely, the thing about angles and
(26:55):
I've even thought about that. People will be like, oh,
we should start a podcast. I'm like, oh, my goodness.
The pressure to always be on what are things you
had to do for yourself to confirm yourself or just
ensure yourself that the content is still good, the interview
is still good despite how my hair looks, and focus
more on the work, but not in the gate that
(27:15):
you still want to show up as your best.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah. I think that that is such a good question.
And I think that that has been the thing that
has gotten me through is that when I'm doing camera work,
I'm typically staying pretty important stuff, like things that I
think are important for our community to talk about, like
ways to help black women take better care of their
mental health or whatever it is I'm talking about. Like
I really believe in my work and think it's important,
and so I think it has been a process of gokajoal.
(27:40):
You got to get out of your own head, and
I typically get lots of great feedback that people like,
loved my hair on something even though I may not
have liked it. But I think really staying focused on
the work and the message and the ways that I'm
hoping to connect with my audience or whoever is the
thing that I've had to use to get out of
my own head. But I've also worked with my stylist
to teach me better ways of like, Okay, here's how
(28:03):
you can do a better twist out routine, or here
are the tools that you need to make sure that
if somebody else is working with your hair, they're not
using an eye and that has too much heat or
those kinds of things. So like kind of having a
prep box has also been really helpful so that I'm
going into a situation much more able to advocate for
myself and better take care of my hair.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I want to stay on this beat for two more
questions for really anyone, but specifically therapy for black girls.
For a black girl who wants to do camera facing
work but is having hang ups about her hair, what
advice or what you know, words of comfort would you
give to her.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I would say that it is still really important for
you to show up, because again, the message is more
important than what the presentation may look like. But also
it's also okay to experiment, so something that I have
not done that I actually do really want to do
is to look at like weig and other ways that
are like almost ready made styles that you don't have
(29:04):
to worry so much about, like is it going to
look good on camera because you like put it on
your head and like it's already styled. I have not
actually had a chance to do that, but I think
that that is something that would have made me have
less anxiety and like feel more confident in some situations
because it is something that like you have more control over, right,
like the community and all those things really can do
(29:25):
whatever with your hair, but a wig if you have
enough hairspray and all those things, and there's such great
wigs now and great technology that you don't have to
worry about it like looking weird or like there's really
good stuff that looks like the quality and texture of
your hair. So I would also encourage people to experiment
with whatever is going to make you feel like you
can show up as your most authentic and comfortable self.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
There's no lack of resources or tips on TikTok within
the Halfway community, so yeah, we see.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But I feel like this is also one of those
places where me struggling to braid and like part comes
in that I'm like, is it gonna look good on
my head? Am I actually going to be able to
install this correctly?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
My hairstylist offers a service where you can like bring
the wig and she doesn't necessarily install it because like
that's not her bread and butter, but they're so easy
to install where she'll map out, okay, like this is
how much of your hairline should be left out if
you're looking to do this, and then she'll do the
braid down and you know what she told me, it's
a break down that you can steam do a deep
(30:25):
conditioner like more of like a spray situation.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
You could still wash.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
And she was telling me that, like people come back
maybe every three weeks and it's like seventy five dollars.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Which I feel like this is really great, say, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I do think dark people out there who's like, you know,
I'll get you, I'll meet you halfway.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, okay, I'll look for that then.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And then my last question on this beat is for
the I guess talent management community for people who are
producing commercials or producing in general, but specifically working with
the hair and makeup of it all.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
What do you want.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
To see from that space that considers black women with
natural hair, but also just black women in general.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that
you have professionals who can work with a variety of
texture of hair and not just oh yeah I did
this once in beauty school kind of thing, like No,
like I actually can do a twist out on you,
or I know what kinds of irons to use on
textured hair versus not. Because you also don't want to
leave like a commercial booking or something and then have
(31:26):
heat damage, right, Like, so, how can people actually work
with clients safely? I think it is really important to
make sure you have a variety of talent in terms
of makeup and hair on deck and make sure that
you're a client and that the talent actually feels well
taken care of, because then you can show up better
for that job if you feel like you have been
able to trust your hair and make up people.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
So, I don't know if you've heard of like people
doing like mirror work, and when like you in the
mirror and you talk to yourself and you really form
this intimate relationship with yourself by confronting I don't want
say confronting that sounds negative, but looking at yourself and
being present, and I found that to be really beneficial
(32:11):
or something I discovered through doing my natural hair, Like
the more time I spent in the mirror doing my hair,
the better I felt about myself, regardless of the results.
And we talked a little bit earlier about sometimes people
think black women have this innate ability to do their hair,
which is just not true.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Tell me about the process of one sitting with.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yourself, and I think when we say sitting it with yourself,
it sounds like so negative, But sitting with yourself and
learning how to do your hair and what that did
for like your confidence, your self perception, but also having
natural hair change the way you thought about like your
own beauty.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Ooh, I feel like I am more beautiful with my
hair wild in a fro like that to me is
the most beautiful. I definitely think that has changed my
perception in a good way, and that it has felt
very freeing to not feel like there have to be
a lot of products and a lot of like technique involved,
like you can just let your hair show up as
it naturally is. But I also feel encouraged and I
(33:12):
agree with you that like cause I think sometimes people
think about like doing hairs like a vanity, like frivolous
kind of thing, But I agree with you that it
is in a lot of ways a form of mirror work. Right,
Like you are deeply engaging with yourself when you are
styling your hair, and I think for a lot of people,
if it is an affirming process right now, if you
are doing your hair and it kind of feels like
(33:34):
you are just saying like all the things that are
awful and like, oh, I can't get this right, that
is not necessarily going to feel like an affirming, validating process.
But if you are like, oh, this toilstot actually came
out really good, and I feel beautiful in this way,
it can be an actually very healing process to do
your hair and to connect with yourself in that way.
I also think that beauty and like the slowing down
(33:57):
of the process. This is also why I think like
makeup is become such a ritual for a lot of
Black women is that it is one of the only
times we are being very slow and methodical and like
not rushing to the next thing. And I think for
a lot of us it offers a bit of a
reset that can be really helpful throughout the rest of
your day.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I really resonate with that I just got my braids done,
not even a week ago, and.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I'm like, oh my goodness, I want to take them out.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And I got them for the convenience of doing hot yoga,
both like as a teacher and as a student and
having to do all these things. But the time, I
really appreciate that I have with myself. And when I
look back at my camera, I'm like, the most selfies
I have are like in a row with my hair
like freshly diffuse, and I do I'm having some maybe dramatic,
(34:44):
some grief around not being able to do my hair,
but also to slow down someone, Hey, do you want
to hang out at like twelve pm on a Saturday.
It's like, no, I'm doing my hair and I'm going
to turn on the show and just do all these
little things in between. But it does force you to
just be for.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
A little bit. Yeah, And I think you know the
ways that like black women have ritualized this whole wash
day thing, right, Like we typically have our playlist of
like songs we might want to listen to while we
are detangling our hair or doing our twists. Out or
our list of shows that we're gonna watch while we're
under the dry or are doing something. And so I
love that it has become like this ritual thing that
feels very much like a self care routine. More from
(35:26):
our conversation after the break, So you.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Would know this better than anyone.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Hair and mental health go hand in hand. And I'm
curious how your community of black women therapists are talking
about hair as a mental health issues when you're in
those professional spaces, what are those conversations, Like, Well.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I don't know that I would know this better than anyone.
Probably doctor Donna Oriolwo knows this better than anyone, who
is of course a friend of the podcast and has
been with us several times, but does such incredible work
talking about like texturism and like our relationship to our
hair throughout our lives. And I love that that is
such a big topic right now, right Like I think
when I was in grad school, there was never any
(36:16):
conversation around like black women's relationship to their hair and
what that means in terms of self esteem and all
those things, even though it clearly existed. Right, Like, we've
already had this long conversation about my childhood and my
thoughts of around hair, and you shared and so black
women do have this very long standing relationship to hair,
and like how that shows up. But that was never
something you talked about clinically. It wouldn't necessarily be something
(36:38):
that would be brought up in the therapy room, and
now it is. And so I think that those are
the kinds of conversations that we are having in clinician
circles just around like all of the ways that black
women show up and all of the things that can
contribute to us having stronger mental health or having lesser
mental health, and all the ways that our self esteem
is impacted by things like taking care of hair and
(37:01):
texturism and hair length and skin color, like all of
those conversations that we know have impacted us but are
now finally getting light in terms of things that actually
need to be talked about.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
You spoke a little bit about being an entrepreneur and
doing on camera work and how that has affected your
relationship with doing your hair.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
But talk to me.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
About being a mom and how that, if anyway, shifted
your relationship with your hair.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, so being a mom is what happened would cause
my second big chop. So I cut it first in
two thousand and nine, and then my oldest was born
in twenty twelve, so I probably cut it again in
twenty thirteen or so because I didn't feel like there
was time, Like I just was tired all the time
and running back and forth from work to daycare and
all the things, and so hair was like the bottom
(37:49):
of my priority list, and so I cut it again
shortly after my oldest was born. And I think that
is where some of the push to kind of have
it short most of the time has come from, just
because again I think it just takes way less time
to deal with short hair than long hair.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So you told us about the first time you did
your big chok, you didn't tell anyone. Is there another
hair choice you've made that you've never fully explained to anyone.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I think every time I cut my hair it is
a very personal choice. So sometimes I've had stylists, not
my long term stylist, but like people i've seen theoretically
when I've wanted to cut my hair will be like, oh,
did you talk to your husband about this? And I'm thinking, like, now,
what in the world. So I think hair for me
is very personal. Like, it is not a communal kind
(38:43):
of decision, and so anytime I like and it's kind
of like a running joke between my husband and I
now because I will say I have a hair appointment
and he's like, Okay, we'll see you when you get back,
because he never knows like what I may have done
or not done when I come back from an appointment.
But it feels like very much such a personal thing.
But again I haven't really been too experimental, so probably
(39:05):
the big chops are the biggest things that I have done.
Like I said, I colored it in November, I cut
it in November, or maybe I cut it afterwards. So
I haven't gotten too wild or adventurous with my hair.
But I do consider it a very personal choice. So
it's usually not something I like. I don't do a
whole bunch of like talking to my group chat, Oh
do y'all think this would look good on me or not.
(39:25):
I typically will just make a pintns bard or something
of my own and make a decision and then share
it afterwards.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Was there a hair decision that you were maybe a
little scared to make your I don't know how it's
gonna come out, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I think the second time I did a big chop,
I did it as a tapered cut, so it was
like a styl like not just all one length, it
was a tapered style, and I was nervous about that
because I was not sure like how that actually was
going to look. But it actually ended up being one
of my favorite styles.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I don't think I've.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Seen I wouldn't tell you, but I don't think I've
seen a bad hairstyle. There are so many hair conversations
happening publicly, and we're not going to get into all
of that, but what does it do for black women
to have these conversations out loud? I sometimes think that
(40:19):
in the black community we can do things very hush hush.
To me, I love it, I love seeing everything out
in the open, but talk to.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Me about that.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, I think, like we talked about before, like it
is really good for us to have these conversations or
just around like the variety of ways we can show
up and our hair can show up. But I do
worry if it causes some pressure to feel like you
have to be a part of the conversation right like
that you have to be constantly changing, or that you
have to have like some opinion on these things, because
(40:48):
I think for some people, like hair feels very political
and it feels like a statement in all of these things,
and for other people, like hair is just hair and
it is okay to be wherever you are on that spectrum.
And So while I love conversation, and I think it
is important for us to be able to shed light
on anything that could feel potentially shameful or like, oh,
anything that allows you to know you're not the only
(41:09):
person having any kind of feeling or thought. There's a
community of people who also feel similar. I also don't
want people to feel pressured to feel like they have
to be a part of some movement or have to
be doing something different if they really just want to
let their hair exist.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So you have two boys, what are you teaching them
about their natural hair? Or what conversations are you guys
having if.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Any ooh, this is a good conversation because they're I mean, well,
I think most boys don't necessarily have like a lot
of choices in terms of or relax or or those
kinds of things. But my youngest has been very adamat
for a very long time that he wanted to twist
his hair, and I was fine with it, but his
dad was like, Oh, I don't really know, like what
(41:54):
is this going to mean. Do we really want him
to twist his hair so young? Not permanent laylocke it,
but like just do twists. And I was like, Oh,
let's just let him experiment, right, And so I think
I'm wanting to teach them to be adventurous with their
hair and like for them to show up however they
decide that they wanted, And so he got his hair
twisted and he's really loved it, and so far, my
(42:16):
owdness also tried it but didn't like it as much,
and so he kind of let his out. But my
youngest has stayed with that kind of being his signatures
down now. And so I want them to feel free
to like wear their hair however they want. But I
am also very intentional about making sure that I am
talking about black girl's natural hair being beautiful to them, right,
(42:38):
And so I want that to be something that they
kind of hear me talk about and like also hoping
that they affirm that for like their classmates and friends,
that there is not this pressure that the girls in
their lives will have to like look any certain kind
of way. So I probably am more intentional about messaging
around like what women look like to them than I
am actually around like their hair, because you know, I
(42:59):
feel like boys kind of do whatever and have freedom
to kind of you know, there isn't the same expectation,
and I think relationship to hair as there is with girls.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
We hear this idiom it's just hair, it grows back,
and I think it is a very helpful.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
One to hear.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
But for anyone who feels the pressure to be natural,
to relax, to be something, what words of advice would
you give them around hair? Because from my point of view,
I think you do have a really care free relationship
with your hair in aisance, you do not care about
your hair, But there's so much to be done that
can be done that having long hair, having sure hair,
(43:39):
having your hair look a certain way doesn't necessarily matter
to you. So what would you say to someone who's
feeling the pressure to do one or another.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I think I would encourage you to quiet those
voices and to really get in touch with what it
is that you want, because, like I said, for a
lot of people, hair is just hair, and it doesn't
have to be anything bigger. But I also recognize that
hair has been a source of shame and like tension
for other people, right, and so for some other people
it is not just hair like it is a family story,
(44:10):
It is a expectation. It actually carries a lot, and
I think the quieter you can get around your own
thoughts and what you feel about your hair, the better
equipped you are to be able to make decisions about
whether you want to get super involved in like doing
a lot of different things with your hair, or whether
you just wanted to exist or let somebody else completely
take care of it, like there is no right answer.
(44:32):
I think is really where I land, and that it
is okay for us to make lots of different choices
about our hair.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I'm glad we ended on that affirming note, and I
hope through your experiences, through a little bit of mine,
people can feel like it is just hair like. It's
still important, but it doesn't have to be a big
point of shame. It can be a point of exploration
in the same way like we play around with makeup,
we should be able to play around with our hair.
(44:59):
And you know, at seventeen, that may mean natural. At
twenty three, that may mean like, Okay, I'm a bust
down battie at.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
A certain point, you know you're in your super in
your fitness journey.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
It might be I just want braids all the time,
But I think it really is something that ebbinflows, just
like our diet or our wardrobe, and we should have
the same type of movement within it.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
So thank you for that, Doctor.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Joy, thank you beautiful questions at Lease. I'm so glad
Elise was able to join me for this conversation and
then I was able to share a little bit more
about my own hair journey. I'd love to hear what
our conversation brought up for you. If you'd like to
share or suggest other topics we can discuss. Drop us
a message at Memo do FM slash Therapy for Black
(45:44):
Girls and let us know what's on your mind. You
just might featured on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to
follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls for
joined us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
(46:06):
us at community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com. This
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indie Chubu, and Tyrie Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session four fifty eight of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. Hair always seems
to be a hot topic, doesn't it, From what style
(01:18):
is acceptable to where it works. The politics of what's
considered going natural hair is no pun intended always on
the brain, and as Black women especially, there's so much
tie to our hair. You can dictate how we're perceived
in certain spaces, signal lifestyle choices and can reflect much
more than a simple esthetic preference. Amidst all the hair
(01:39):
discoursed it's important that we reclaim the space we want
or don't want hair to take up in our lives. Today,
I'm chatting with someone you've heard on the show many times,
our director of Podcasts and Digital Content, Elise Ellis. In
our conversation, we get into my own hair journey and
unpack the different shapes is taken throughout my life. If
something resonates with you while enjoying now conversation, please share
(02:01):
with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session,
or join us over in our patreons talk more about
the episode. You can join us at community dot therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I'm happy to be here today because I think as
a team, we've talked a lot about like pop culture,
and we have a lot of discussions about like the
holidays and our family traditions from that, but I don't
think we've ever talked about maybe how you specifically, or
how we have a team full of black women care
for our hair.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
And honestly, there's no time better than the present.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
This is always a relevant conversation, but I do feel
like right now in these like TikTok streets, even as
new black haircare brands or brands targeted towards curly hair
come out. There's an involving conversation around the choice to
wear your natural hair, the pressures some could say to
where your natural hair. So that's what we're here to
(02:59):
talk about today, and I wanted to start by asking
you about how you wore your hair growing up, especially
because when I watch a movie or a TV show
with the black woman, I think that there's this one stereotype,
journey or experience that someone may have which I know
not to be true. So tell me about how hair
(03:21):
was talked about in your household, and then what you were.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Doing with your hair.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So my first answer is I was not doing anything
with my hair because that was fully my mother's job.
And I think a lot of it was around like preservation, right,
not wanting me to get to experimental in terms of style,
so that there wouldn't be a lot of breakage and stuff.
And I definitely was somebody who grew up with ponytails
and like plants, not a lot of braids, because I
(03:48):
don't think my mother actually knew how to braid, which
unfortunately has translated to me, which means I also cannot braid,
which I think hampers a lot of what I would
like to do with my hair, but I can't actually breid.
But I would have like ponytails, like four ponytails or
like whatever when I was much younger, and I think
in maybe high school is when I started maybe probably
(04:09):
doing more of my own hair. So I know I
went through a period with bangs. I remember some crimps,
so there was a crimping iron involved, but I don't
think it was really until high school when I was
the one who was making decisions about my own hair
and how I wanted to style it.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When you were younger, did you perceive your hair as, oh,
I have curly hair, like what was your own vantage
point of your hair?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So I definitely was somebody who would get like straight eyes,
like I definitely remember, but that only happened on special occasions,
right like I remember like right before east or Mother's Day,
like sitting, and we had old school straightening cones at
the time, not the ones you plug in. I remember
vividly like it being on the iron and like fire
and having to hold my ear so my hair would
be straight. I think for a couple of days around
(04:53):
those holidays, but most of the time, my hair was
like plaided up, so I don't ever think I remember
using the word curly, though I don't know that I
had a real connection to like the texture of my hair.
And I'm trying to remember at what point did I
get the pressing comb and the jaw because at some
point my mom did actually give me I guess what
(05:13):
was a kitty relaxer. It was called a PCJ a
pressing comb in the jawer. When I'm trying to remember
how old I was when that first happened, probably before
high school, but I don't actually remember how old I was.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
That's interesting. I've never had a relaxer. I do remember
like the first time referring to or like understanding that
like my hair was curly, and it was whenever or
around the time where like the brand it was called
kinky curly came out and they had like not today.
And I have an older cousin who like me, we
(05:49):
both have just a lot of hair, and I think
she had started using that.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
My mom was like, you should use this for her.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And I still was getting like four braids or like
individuals or like braids in the front and like a
twist down in the back. But I don't even think
we would call it like a twist out or anything.
But I remember that being me, like, oh, my hair
is curly, and there are specific products for curly hair.
And then I remember going to like starting to go
(06:16):
to the hair salon and uniquely remembering like comments about
my hair about like she should get a perm or
her hair is a lot, which I think has colored
so much of like how I experienced hair slans. But
you said you started getting your hair or you were,
like you experimented with bangs and crimps?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Were you going to salans? Were you're doing your own hair?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And like how did that influence your relationship with getting
your hair done by other people?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Probably most of my childhood it was done by either
my mom or one of my aunts, so I have
my mom has six sisters, so like there was no
shortage of like kitchen titians as they have been called.
But at some point, I think for like special occasions,
maybe like dances or stuff, like I would go to
like the local musician. I mean, most of the audience
knows I'm from a very small town in Louisiana, Like
(07:03):
there was not a strip mall or places you went
to where there were multiple beauticians to choose from. It
was like the one person in town who was doing hair,
and so I think she would probably do like roller
sets on my hair for like certain occasions, but most
of it was actually my mom or my aunt.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
How did that like affect the relationship you had with
your mom outside of it, and the relationship you have
with your mom and beauty in general.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So I feel like there was a lot of I
don't know that I'm tenderheaded, but I definitely remember a
lot of my mom saying sit still and like detangling
feeling painful for sure, But I don't necessarily remember that
being connected to like larger conversations of beauty or anything like.
I don't think there were, at least I'm not remembering
any conversations around, oh, your hair looks like this, and
(07:51):
like other people's hair looks like that. Like it feels
like there was very much the expectation that as little
girls like you bore plats. But again, I'm not remembering
at what point did the relaxer was introduced, And it
probably was around making detangling easier, right, and like that
is just the thing that people were doing. So I
feel like after I started getting the pressing comb and
(08:13):
a jow then like, I continue to be relaxed until
I cut it out in two thousand and nine. So
there was a large part of my life where I
was definitely getting relaxers and sometimes my mom would do them.
But I think as I got older, like high school
and later, for sure I was going to a beautician
to get my hair done, to get relaxed.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
A lot of people talk about quote unquote like going natural,
like it's this one single moment, and I think it
looks really different from everyone. For me, I've never had
a perm or there's just like a heidened commitment to
whether it's like a twist out or trying to wear
your hair curly over time.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, so I had to go back on Facebook to
actually figure out what this journey was for me because
I was like, when did I like actually start this
natural journey? And I have a fate of an album
on Facebook called with My Hair Back and Forth My
Natural Hair Journey, and the date is November two thousand
and nine, so I know that's when it started. And
so for me, that was cutting off all of my hair.
(09:15):
So I probably had pretty long, relaxed hair, and I
think I started by like growing out the relaxer and
cutting it a little shorter and shorter, and then in
November two thousand and nine did the first big chop
where I had probably less than an inch of hair,
and I think at the time, I was just really
curious about what the natural texture of my hair looked like.
(09:36):
I also think that that was when we were seeing
so much of the conversations around a natural hair right,
Like it did feel like there was this movement, So
I know, curly Nikki was a website that I read
up a lot on, and there was this huge community
of people who were also like transitioning to natural land,
trying to figure out what does it look like to
take care of our hair now? What does it mean
(09:58):
to be in this twa stage, which was the teeny
weeni afro right when that's where I was when I
first cut mine off. So it was a process I
think of like learning what does it mean now to
take care of my hair and like not having enough
hair for a ponytail, which was really new for me.
But that was definitely the beginning of my journey. Was
November two thousand and nine when I did my first
(10:19):
big job.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Was there any fear, any anxieties, any just general kind
of nervousness about being in a new stage, in a
new chapter with your hair and something that you may
not have seen other people around you doing or growing up,
or you saw it online, but it might not have
been like your neighbor, your colleague, or like that.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It was still an early part of the movement.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it definitely was still early, and I think specifically
in my family. As a matter of fact, I remember
like cutting off all my hair and not actually telling
my mother about it because I knew she would not approve,
And this time, like I was into my career, so
like even the idea that my mother wouldn't approve of
my hair sounds a little ridiculous. But I didn't tell
(11:02):
anybody that I was doing it besides friends who I
knew would be supportive, because it did still, even at
that time, feel like something that I might get like
backlash around. There wasn't anybody else in my family who
was natural at the time. All of my aunts and
cousins I think, were still getting relaxes, and so in
two thousand and nineties, it did still feel very much
like something that I had to do in secret. I
(11:23):
mean kind of just showed up. Like I'm guessing, like
did I show up for Christmas or Thanksgiving that year
and just surprise them? I probably I feel like I
probably told them at least beforehand, but definitely not before
I cut it all off.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's so interesting that we can only speak from the
view of a black woman, but that you would even
have to tell someone.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like, hey, guys, I couldn't right right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Instead of just like showing up with your hair, how
it is? What rules, if any, did you have around
your hair before that you realized once you cut it?
And then what rules or just what did you notice
you had long health beliefs you had about your hair
as your journey being natural went on.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I think that it was an unspoken rule that
like long hair was like the healthiest, right, like that
that is what it meant, and that that was a
goal to have really long hair. And so I think
even when I was relaxed when I would cut my
hair shorter, like there were all these like well why
would you cut all your hair and like, oh my gosh,
it was so beautiful. There was a very like long
(12:27):
unspoken rule that long hair was like the ideal and
that's what you should be trying to attain. But I
also was never really experimental with my hair, and I
think I'm trying to think, like did most of my
I feel like at some point my mom maybe has
experimented with color, but never like a, oh, let's try
red hair like a purple stripe, or like, I feel
(12:49):
like that is something that I'm like really excited that
kids and like young folks do now, But that was
never I don't remember ever having my hair died before
probably grad school or something, right, Oh, And so I
think that that was also an unspoken thing that you
kind of lift your hair alone besides a relaxer, right, Like,
so you weren't doing any like experimental colors or like
(13:09):
you know, just getting too adventurous with your hair, just
kind of like leave it alone, let it do its thing.
And I think I felt more emboldened to be more
experimental in trying new things after I actually went natural.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It's funny to say that my mom always had short
turr hair like around her like collarbone, and I remember
when she died blonde. I remember when she died red,
like I remember the color journeys. And then my older
sister started to cut her hair too, And I feel
like the best way to describe it is if you've
(13:44):
seen like pretty and pink or the breakfast Club, like
Molly Ring, Like that was her hair. It was like
very feathered like that, but it was red, it was blond.
But me, I was always so scared to do anything
with my hair, like I think I maybe one time
my box died, I did like red as a streak.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And it fell out. It looks a mess.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And then my younger sister, starting maybe early high school,
purple hair, purple streak and has carried that, always had.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Some hint of purple on her hair.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And I look back and I'm like, woo, what would
I have done in high school if I had the
courage to experiment with my hair? And I'm wondering, what
would you have done if you had the courage or
just even the mindset to experiment.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think I probably would have tried short hair much sooner.
I actually really liked short hair, like just as a
look on me, and it is typically so much easier
to manage. But that definitely was not something that I
felt emboldened to do in high school. I'm trying to
think if I even had a bob. I don't think so.
I feel like I probably was much later in life
(14:53):
before there was ever any talk of like wanting to
cut my hair like into a style like I probably
got trim just to kind of to keep the hair healthy,
but an actual style I don't think I experimented with
until probably college.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I had a.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Bob in it was either the fourth or fifth grade,
and I looked back at that photo, I'm like, oh,
you look so confident, And now, as someone who wears
my hair in a bob mostly when it's straight, I'm
like the seeds were always there, like it was.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Do you remember a conversation with your mom around wanting
to cut your hair too a bob? But like, how
did that happen?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I think it what it was is I started going
to the Dominican Salon to get blowouts, and I when
I know, I think I see a lot of like
younger after Latina girls who have this kind of like
short tucked in bob hairstyund So I think one day
at the Dominican Salon it was chosen for me.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
It wasn't a choice, but I was.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I don't think I was like scared or mad or
crying because it looked so good, it looked so full.
And what I've experienced is like, I know I can
grow my hair longer, but how I feel the most confident,
how it feels the most manageable, And when my curls
look the best are when.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
My hairs in abob. So I'm kind of like, if
it's not broken, don't fix it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
So we're talking about all these different styles that you
can do, and outside of the binary of like natural
and relax, there's braids, there's wigs, and I think there's
a lot of kind of joy and like you said,
freedom of expression when you can be that versatile with
your hair. But I also think there's a lot of
labor in that too, a lot of pressure like maybe
(16:34):
you should be trying the style, or this is better
for growth, or oh, if you have this space shape, you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Should try out this.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And I'm curious from your lens, can that versatility like
it can be freedom can also really be like a
friction point or confusing for our identity.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Ooh for identity. Okay, I'm gonna come back to that point.
But I do feel like there's a lot of friction
and a lot of labor just associated with like it
feels like a lot, right. I think that there's sometimes
a stereotype that, like black women are good with their hair, right,
like that we could just naturally know how to do
those things. And I am not right, Like I already
(17:12):
told you, I don't know how to breathe, Like I
can't even really part straight. It has made I think
it difficult for me to like be maybe as adventurous
as I would like without having to go to my
stylist to get that kind of stuff done. And so
I think sometimes the friction comes from resource wise, you
got to pay money for somebody to do it, or
(17:32):
find the right wigs, or it just feels like there
are so many choices now that I think a lot
of the friction comes from that. But I do think
it could pose some challenges to identity if you feel
like that is something you have to do, right, that
being a black woman or a black girl equals this,
that it is somebody who has to change up the
style all the time, and just because those choices exist,
(17:54):
like you have to feed into that. I do think
it's great for people who want to experiment and do
lots of different things. But I also think it's okay
if you decide that that's not your thing, right, Like,
I think the idea that there are these choices is
really cool, but I think it is still really important
to stay true to who you are, and I feel
like you have to choose one way to show up
as a black woman. More from our conversation after the break.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Now, I want to preference this next question.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I was barely thought of when these moments happened, but
from my understanding, we'd see people like Indiari, Warren Hill,
Maxine Shaw, these black women in pop culture who were
wearing their hair natural, and when we think about a
lot of other black pop culture icons black celebrities, that
(18:51):
was not what we saw. What do you think, whether
or not that was your specific entry point, how do
you think seeing those women has shifted people's perception of
their own beauty, perception of their hair.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Ooh, I think that that was huge, right, like Indiary,
Lauren Hell, like, all of that was a real moment.
I think Lauren Hill actually was first because that came
out when I was in college. I think Indiary was
a little later, Yeah, a little later. Yeah, But I
think that those were huge. I mean, and even in
conversations we've had on the podcast, just in terms of
what the music industry has been and like women who
(19:25):
looked like laurenhal and Indiary presenting with their natural hair
in its natural texture, I think really opened the doors
for lots of different people to see themselves and to
be like, oh, this can be popular as well. So
I think it opened a lot of doors in the
music industry. But I think the larger and greater representation
it offered for black girls on screen I think was
(19:47):
also huge, right, Like, so it admit that you did
not have to look only one way, right, Like, you
didn't have to have hair like Janet Jackson or Mariah
Carey or some of the more mainstream artists like you
could also look like this and be seen as beautiful.
And so I think that there's not enough said about
how those artists in the ways that they opened the
(20:07):
doors for other people in terms of artistry, but also
just what it meant to Black women and black girls
at large to see themselves represented in that way.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Today, we just like we have so many women, so
many people generally that we can look at and say, oh,
I want to wear my hair like this or this
is empowering me to wear my hair natural. I do
think we have ooh, we have too many options actually,
like we're sometimes buying too many products. And you talked
a little bit about I think it was like pretty
(20:38):
Nikki and the types of people who were online very
early in the natural hair movement, but like humorous a
little what were the products, Like, what was it like
going to a store trying to find products and what
were your staples back then?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, so I don't think you were going to the
store to buy anything, like I feel like a lot
of the conversation was around like having to order stuff online.
So naturallycurly dot Com I think was another really big
website at the time, and that was like one of
the main marketplaces where you could go to find some
of these like natural hair curly hair products. But I'm
(21:12):
pretty sure Shamee Moisture was my first the highbiscus curly
soufle smoothing something something. I remember the smell very vividly,
but it was the first product that I found that
actually worked for my hair, And I feel like Shae
Moisture was also one of the first that you could
eventually buy in the storage right, like I think it
was in walgreas maybe Walmart. But at the time, there
(21:33):
was a lot of having to spend money to like
shift stuff because people were only making it in smaller badges.
Like I think Carol's daughter had like a line at
that point Shamee Moisture, like I said, But a lot
of people also were like concocting things in their kitchens,
right there were all these avocado this and make this
with mayonnaise or whatever, right like in so people were
(21:56):
also getting very I think brave and putting together stuff
in their kitchens to try to work with our hair,
just because at the time. Now, of course now you
have whole aisles and stores dedicated to natural hair, but
at the time it was still very slim pickings. So
I'm pretty sure Shade Moisture and the Kinky Curly now today,
once I was introduced to that, that was one of
(22:17):
my favorite products, but it was very slim pickings at
the time to find products that actually worked for your hair.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Honestly, with the Kinky Curly not today.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I still buy it to if I can find it,
because it's a little hard to find.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
A house.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
We're talking about detangling.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yes, gold stars. Gold Stars are detangler for.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
She was going my hair and I'm hearing I'm having
flashbacks like sit still great product though, tell us about
everyone wants to know this, doctor Joy. I wanted to
know it for years. I mean, the people online want
to know it. Tell us about your haircare routine.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Now, oh gosh, So I feel like it is pretty minimal.
So I cut Let's see, I've cut it again. At
the end of last year, I cut in colored. So
this is the first time I've had like a reddish
brownish bobbish. That's how I cut it at the end
of last year. But it has grown out and I'm
not sure yet if I'm gonna, like keep it shorter
(23:11):
or if I'm gonna let it grow out. Because I also,
while I like the idea of styling, I do not
want to be the one who's actually having to style.
So like this bun is what I want to be
able to do with my hair. But I feel like
I have had like a I won't say strained, but
I feel like there has been an interesting pivot in
my relationship to my hair when I started doing more
(23:32):
media work. Because left to my own devices, I like
to wear my hair like in a big wild afro,
just wild and like curly. What I found though, is
that I didn't like how like that always showed up
in film, right, like if the angle is not right,
or like if the twist out did not come out
like the way that I wanted, which we know twist outs,
(23:54):
like they are so temperamental, like you gotta have it
perfectly dry, the technique gotta be perfect. And so I
feel like that has introduced like this tension into my
relationship with my hair that I didn't necessarily expect because
I want to look my best on camera, right, but
if I am not skilled enough to do that, and
if I'm like working somewhere that didn't actually have a
set with a black woman who knew how to do
(24:16):
me natural hair, then that meant I was responsible for it,
and then I end up not liking it. That is
something that I have been kind of going back and
forth with, like, Okay, what is the easiest way for
me to wear my hair where I can get pretty
consistent results no matter like what I'm doing. I don't
know that I actually have an answer for that yet,
(24:37):
but I think shorter has been working a little better
for me to kind of manage myself if I'm doing
like some kind of media or camera work, but usually
I am doing some kind of twists outs, like when
it was longer, I'm usually doing some kind of twist
outs or a washing go. But again going back to
the conversation around dtangling, that is a nightmare, todtangle. After
(24:58):
your hair has been in the washing go for some.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Time, what are your washing go?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Holy Grail products like Mount rushmore.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay, so I feel like I have been using Pattern
pretty consistently since it has come out like that is
probably my favorite shampoo and conditioner for sure. The Dew
Moose is great for twist outs, but I have also
now started experimenting with it as a roller set and
(25:26):
am also finding really good results with that. So my
hair was like dad like in a bit of a
roller set in the past couple of weeks, and then
I use the Do for that and that has worked
really well. I've used Sacred, so I don't know that
there are Holy Grail products for me, but I heard
that there's a new line of Sacred products that includes
like a gail in a moose that I am excited
to try. But I have not tried yet, but I
(25:49):
really like fair team, right, like can I get a
can I get a box of these new goodies?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
The whole team is like, the whole team is natural for.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
The we want to try out all these realms.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
I address emails, it works up in coupon codes.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Whatever, whatever, whatever you would like. But I really like
the smell of Sacreds shampoo and conditioner, and so I
kind of go back and forth between them and Pattern.
But I do use Sacreds clarifying shampoo when I need
to do a clarify because I have product build up
or whatever. So maybe once every two months or so
I will use that. But I really like the smell
of Sacred products. Is there anything else I've been using? No,
(26:27):
I feel like that's it. Like Pattern and Sacred and
the do have really been holding me down for quite
some time now.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I want to circle back to something that you said
earlier about being on Camerara and feeling like you have
to present a certain way all the time, and sometimes
it's less about like oh I don't like my hair
like this, I'll have a wash and go and I'm like,
why are there like sunlight gaps like my fro does
not feel as full. Definitely, the thing about angles and
(26:55):
I've even thought about that. People will be like, oh,
we should start a podcast. I'm like, oh, my goodness.
The pressure to always be on what are things you
had to do for yourself to confirm yourself or just
ensure yourself that the content is still good, the interview
is still good despite how my hair looks, and focus
more on the work, but not in the gate that
(27:15):
you still want to show up as your best.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah. I think that that is such a good question.
And I think that that has been the thing that
has gotten me through is that when I'm doing camera work,
I'm typically staying pretty important stuff, like things that I
think are important for our community to talk about, like
ways to help black women take better care of their
mental health or whatever it is I'm talking about. Like
I really believe in my work and think it's important,
and so I think it has been a process of gokajoal.
(27:40):
You got to get out of your own head, and
I typically get lots of great feedback that people like,
loved my hair on something even though I may not
have liked it. But I think really staying focused on
the work and the message and the ways that I'm
hoping to connect with my audience or whoever is the
thing that I've had to use to get out of
my own head. But I've also worked with my stylist
to teach me better ways of like, Okay, here's how
(28:03):
you can do a better twist out routine, or here
are the tools that you need to make sure that
if somebody else is working with your hair, they're not
using an eye and that has too much heat or
those kinds of things. So like kind of having a
prep box has also been really helpful so that I'm
going into a situation much more able to advocate for
myself and better take care of my hair.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I want to stay on this beat for two more
questions for really anyone, but specifically therapy for black girls.
For a black girl who wants to do camera facing
work but is having hang ups about her hair, what
advice or what you know, words of comfort would you
give to her.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I would say that it is still really important for
you to show up, because again, the message is more
important than what the presentation may look like. But also
it's also okay to experiment, so something that I have
not done that I actually do really want to do
is to look at like weig and other ways that
are like almost ready made styles that you don't have
(29:04):
to worry so much about, like is it going to
look good on camera because you like put it on
your head and like it's already styled. I have not
actually had a chance to do that, but I think
that that is something that would have made me have
less anxiety and like feel more confident in some situations
because it is something that like you have more control over, right,
like the community and all those things really can do
(29:25):
whatever with your hair, but a wig if you have
enough hairspray and all those things, and there's such great
wigs now and great technology that you don't have to
worry about it like looking weird or like there's really
good stuff that looks like the quality and texture of
your hair. So I would also encourage people to experiment
with whatever is going to make you feel like you
can show up as your most authentic and comfortable self.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
There's no lack of resources or tips on TikTok within
the Halfway community, so yeah, we see.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But I feel like this is also one of those
places where me struggling to braid and like part comes
in that I'm like, is it gonna look good on
my head? Am I actually going to be able to
install this correctly?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
My hairstylist offers a service where you can like bring
the wig and she doesn't necessarily install it because like
that's not her bread and butter, but they're so easy
to install where she'll map out, okay, like this is
how much of your hairline should be left out if
you're looking to do this, and then she'll do the
braid down and you know what she told me, it's
a break down that you can steam do a deep
(30:25):
conditioner like more of like a spray situation.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
You could still wash.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
And she was telling me that, like people come back
maybe every three weeks and it's like seventy five dollars.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Which I feel like this is really great, say, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I do think dark people out there who's like, you know,
I'll get you, I'll meet you halfway.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, okay, I'll look for that then.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And then my last question on this beat is for
the I guess talent management community for people who are
producing commercials or producing in general, but specifically working with
the hair and makeup of it all.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
What do you want.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
To see from that space that considers black women with
natural hair, but also just black women in general.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that
you have professionals who can work with a variety of
texture of hair and not just oh yeah I did
this once in beauty school kind of thing, like No,
like I actually can do a twist out on you,
or I know what kinds of irons to use on
textured hair versus not. Because you also don't want to
leave like a commercial booking or something and then have
(31:26):
heat damage, right, Like, so, how can people actually work
with clients safely? I think it is really important to
make sure you have a variety of talent in terms
of makeup and hair on deck and make sure that
you're a client and that the talent actually feels well
taken care of, because then you can show up better
for that job if you feel like you have been
able to trust your hair and make up people.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
So, I don't know if you've heard of like people
doing like mirror work, and when like you in the
mirror and you talk to yourself and you really form
this intimate relationship with yourself by confronting I don't want
say confronting that sounds negative, but looking at yourself and
being present, and I found that to be really beneficial
(32:11):
or something I discovered through doing my natural hair, Like
the more time I spent in the mirror doing my hair,
the better I felt about myself, regardless of the results.
And we talked a little bit earlier about sometimes people
think black women have this innate ability to do their hair,
which is just not true.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Tell me about the process of one sitting with.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yourself, and I think when we say sitting it with yourself,
it sounds like so negative, But sitting with yourself and
learning how to do your hair and what that did
for like your confidence, your self perception, but also having
natural hair change the way you thought about like your
own beauty.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Ooh, I feel like I am more beautiful with my
hair wild in a fro like that to me is
the most beautiful. I definitely think that has changed my
perception in a good way, and that it has felt
very freeing to not feel like there have to be
a lot of products and a lot of like technique involved,
like you can just let your hair show up as
it naturally is. But I also feel encouraged and I
(33:12):
agree with you that like cause I think sometimes people
think about like doing hairs like a vanity, like frivolous
kind of thing, But I agree with you that it
is in a lot of ways a form of mirror work. Right,
Like you are deeply engaging with yourself when you are
styling your hair, and I think for a lot of people,
if it is an affirming process right now, if you
are doing your hair and it kind of feels like
(33:34):
you are just saying like all the things that are
awful and like, oh, I can't get this right, that
is not necessarily going to feel like an affirming, validating process.
But if you are like, oh, this toilstot actually came
out really good, and I feel beautiful in this way,
it can be an actually very healing process to do
your hair and to connect with yourself in that way.
I also think that beauty and like the slowing down
(33:57):
of the process. This is also why I think like
makeup is become such a ritual for a lot of
Black women is that it is one of the only
times we are being very slow and methodical and like
not rushing to the next thing. And I think for
a lot of us it offers a bit of a
reset that can be really helpful throughout the rest of
your day.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I really resonate with that I just got my braids done,
not even a week ago, and.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I'm like, oh my goodness, I want to take them out.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And I got them for the convenience of doing hot yoga,
both like as a teacher and as a student and
having to do all these things. But the time, I
really appreciate that I have with myself. And when I
look back at my camera, I'm like, the most selfies
I have are like in a row with my hair
like freshly diffuse, and I do I'm having some maybe dramatic,
(34:44):
some grief around not being able to do my hair,
but also to slow down someone, Hey, do you want
to hang out at like twelve pm on a Saturday.
It's like, no, I'm doing my hair and I'm going
to turn on the show and just do all these
little things in between. But it does force you to
just be for.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
A little bit. Yeah, And I think you know the
ways that like black women have ritualized this whole wash
day thing, right, Like we typically have our playlist of
like songs we might want to listen to while we
are detangling our hair or doing our twists. Out or
our list of shows that we're gonna watch while we're
under the dry or are doing something. And so I
love that it has become like this ritual thing that
feels very much like a self care routine. More from
(35:26):
our conversation after the break, So you.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Would know this better than anyone.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Hair and mental health go hand in hand. And I'm
curious how your community of black women therapists are talking
about hair as a mental health issues when you're in
those professional spaces, what are those conversations, Like, Well.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I don't know that I would know this better than anyone.
Probably doctor Donna Oriolwo knows this better than anyone, who
is of course a friend of the podcast and has
been with us several times, but does such incredible work
talking about like texturism and like our relationship to our
hair throughout our lives. And I love that that is
such a big topic right now, right Like I think
when I was in grad school, there was never any
(36:16):
conversation around like black women's relationship to their hair and
what that means in terms of self esteem and all
those things, even though it clearly existed. Right, Like, we've
already had this long conversation about my childhood and my
thoughts of around hair, and you shared and so black
women do have this very long standing relationship to hair,
and like how that shows up. But that was never
something you talked about clinically. It wouldn't necessarily be something
(36:38):
that would be brought up in the therapy room, and
now it is. And so I think that those are
the kinds of conversations that we are having in clinician
circles just around like all of the ways that black
women show up and all of the things that can
contribute to us having stronger mental health or having lesser
mental health, and all the ways that our self esteem
is impacted by things like taking care of hair and
(37:01):
texturism and hair length and skin color, like all of
those conversations that we know have impacted us but are
now finally getting light in terms of things that actually
need to be talked about.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
You spoke a little bit about being an entrepreneur and
doing on camera work and how that has affected your
relationship with doing your hair.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
But talk to me.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
About being a mom and how that, if anyway, shifted
your relationship with your hair.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, so being a mom is what happened would cause
my second big chop. So I cut it first in
two thousand and nine, and then my oldest was born
in twenty twelve, so I probably cut it again in
twenty thirteen or so because I didn't feel like there
was time, Like I just was tired all the time
and running back and forth from work to daycare and
all the things, and so hair was like the bottom
(37:49):
of my priority list, and so I cut it again
shortly after my oldest was born. And I think that
is where some of the push to kind of have
it short most of the time has come from, just
because again I think it just takes way less time
to deal with short hair than long hair.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So you told us about the first time you did
your big chok, you didn't tell anyone. Is there another
hair choice you've made that you've never fully explained to anyone.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I think every time I cut my hair it is
a very personal choice. So sometimes I've had stylists, not
my long term stylist, but like people i've seen theoretically
when I've wanted to cut my hair will be like, oh,
did you talk to your husband about this? And I'm thinking, like, now,
what in the world. So I think hair for me
is very personal. Like, it is not a communal kind
(38:43):
of decision, and so anytime I like and it's kind
of like a running joke between my husband and I
now because I will say I have a hair appointment
and he's like, Okay, we'll see you when you get back,
because he never knows like what I may have done
or not done when I come back from an appointment.
But it feels like very much such a personal thing.
But again I haven't really been too experimental, so probably
(39:05):
the big chops are the biggest things that I have done.
Like I said, I colored it in November, I cut
it in November, or maybe I cut it afterwards. So
I haven't gotten too wild or adventurous with my hair.
But I do consider it a very personal choice. So
it's usually not something I like. I don't do a
whole bunch of like talking to my group chat, Oh
do y'all think this would look good on me or not.
(39:25):
I typically will just make a pintns bard or something
of my own and make a decision and then share
it afterwards.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Was there a hair decision that you were maybe a
little scared to make your I don't know how it's
gonna come out, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I think the second time I did a big chop,
I did it as a tapered cut, so it was
like a styl like not just all one length, it
was a tapered style, and I was nervous about that
because I was not sure like how that actually was
going to look. But it actually ended up being one
of my favorite styles.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I don't think I've.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Seen I wouldn't tell you, but I don't think I've
seen a bad hairstyle. There are so many hair conversations
happening publicly, and we're not going to get into all
of that, but what does it do for black women
to have these conversations out loud? I sometimes think that
(40:19):
in the black community we can do things very hush hush.
To me, I love it, I love seeing everything out
in the open, but talk to.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Me about that.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, I think, like we talked about before, like it
is really good for us to have these conversations or
just around like the variety of ways we can show
up and our hair can show up. But I do
worry if it causes some pressure to feel like you
have to be a part of the conversation right like
that you have to be constantly changing, or that you
have to have like some opinion on these things, because
(40:48):
I think for some people, like hair feels very political
and it feels like a statement in all of these things,
and for other people, like hair is just hair and
it is okay to be wherever you are on that spectrum.
And So while I love conversation, and I think it
is important for us to be able to shed light
on anything that could feel potentially shameful or like, oh,
anything that allows you to know you're not the only
(41:09):
person having any kind of feeling or thought. There's a
community of people who also feel similar. I also don't
want people to feel pressured to feel like they have
to be a part of some movement or have to
be doing something different if they really just want to
let their hair exist.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So you have two boys, what are you teaching them
about their natural hair? Or what conversations are you guys
having if.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Any ooh, this is a good conversation because they're I mean, well,
I think most boys don't necessarily have like a lot
of choices in terms of or relax or or those
kinds of things. But my youngest has been very adamat
for a very long time that he wanted to twist
his hair, and I was fine with it, but his
dad was like, Oh, I don't really know, like what
(41:54):
is this going to mean. Do we really want him
to twist his hair so young? Not permanent laylocke it,
but like just do twists. And I was like, Oh,
let's just let him experiment, right, And so I think
I'm wanting to teach them to be adventurous with their
hair and like for them to show up however they
decide that they wanted, And so he got his hair
twisted and he's really loved it, and so far, my
(42:16):
owdness also tried it but didn't like it as much,
and so he kind of let his out. But my
youngest has stayed with that kind of being his signatures
down now. And so I want them to feel free
to like wear their hair however they want. But I
am also very intentional about making sure that I am
talking about black girl's natural hair being beautiful to them, right,
(42:38):
And so I want that to be something that they
kind of hear me talk about and like also hoping
that they affirm that for like their classmates and friends,
that there is not this pressure that the girls in
their lives will have to like look any certain kind
of way. So I probably am more intentional about messaging
around like what women look like to them than I
am actually around like their hair, because you know, I
(42:59):
feel like boys kind of do whatever and have freedom
to kind of you know, there isn't the same expectation,
and I think relationship to hair as there is with girls.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
We hear this idiom it's just hair, it grows back,
and I think it is a very helpful.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
One to hear.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
But for anyone who feels the pressure to be natural,
to relax, to be something, what words of advice would
you give them around hair? Because from my point of view,
I think you do have a really care free relationship
with your hair in aisance, you do not care about
your hair, But there's so much to be done that
can be done that having long hair, having sure hair,
(43:39):
having your hair look a certain way doesn't necessarily matter
to you. So what would you say to someone who's
feeling the pressure to do one or another.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I think I would encourage you to quiet those
voices and to really get in touch with what it
is that you want, because, like I said, for a
lot of people, hair is just hair, and it doesn't
have to be anything bigger. But I also recognize that
hair has been a source of shame and like tension
for other people, right, and so for some other people
it is not just hair like it is a family story,
(44:10):
It is a expectation. It actually carries a lot, and
I think the quieter you can get around your own
thoughts and what you feel about your hair, the better
equipped you are to be able to make decisions about
whether you want to get super involved in like doing
a lot of different things with your hair, or whether
you just wanted to exist or let somebody else completely
take care of it, like there is no right answer.
(44:32):
I think is really where I land, and that it
is okay for us to make lots of different choices
about our hair.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I'm glad we ended on that affirming note, and I
hope through your experiences, through a little bit of mine,
people can feel like it is just hair like. It's
still important, but it doesn't have to be a big
point of shame. It can be a point of exploration
in the same way like we play around with makeup,
we should be able to play around with our hair.
(44:59):
And you know, at seventeen, that may mean natural. At
twenty three, that may mean like, Okay, I'm a bust
down battie at.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
A certain point, you know you're in your super in
your fitness journey.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
It might be I just want braids all the time,
But I think it really is something that ebbinflows, just
like our diet or our wardrobe, and we should have
the same type of movement within it.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
So thank you for that, Doctor.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Joy, thank you beautiful questions at Lease. I'm so glad
Elise was able to join me for this conversation and
then I was able to share a little bit more
about my own hair journey. I'd love to hear what
our conversation brought up for you. If you'd like to
share or suggest other topics we can discuss. Drop us
a message at Memo do FM slash Therapy for Black
(45:44):
Girls and let us know what's on your mind. You
just might featured on the podcast. If you're looking for
a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to
follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls for
joined us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
(46:06):
us at community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com. This
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indie Chubu, and Tyrie Rush.
Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
for joining me again this week. I look forward to
continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
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