Session 462: Going No Contact

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

(00:57):
for joining me from session four sixty two or the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after word from our sponsors. In this episode, I'm
joined by licensed psychotherapist doctor Natalie Jones for a thoughtful

(01:19):
conversation about what it really means to go no contact
with people in your life who may be causing harm.
Doctor Jones brings deep expertise in trauma, boundaries and emotional wellness,
and she shares from both her clinical work and her
passion for helping people build healthier relationships. In this conversation,
we talk about how complicated this decision can feel, especially

(01:39):
within families and tight knit communities, and why more of
us are finding ourselves considering distance as an act of
self preservation as conversations about boundaries and generational healing continue
to grow. This feels like such a timely and necessary discussion,
and I hope it offers you both clarity and reassurance
if this is something you've been wrestling with. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with

(02:01):
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
or join us over and our patreon to talk more
about the episode. You can join us at community do
therapyfro Blackgirls dot com. But first, we are desperately in
need of an emergency pop culture check in a lot,
maybe even too much has occurred. And as a therapist
but also someone who appreciates and loves pop culture, it

(02:24):
wouldn't be me if I didn't dig into the mental
health aspect of all of this. Here's our conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Hey, doctor Joy, I'm excited to be in conversation with
you for our second pop culture segment here on the podcast.
For those of you just joining us, this is a
newer segment we're building out. We're taking moments from pop culture,
what everyone's watching, talking about, maybe even debating, and using
them as a starting point to think a little deeper

(02:55):
about our mental health. So I'll bring in a few
stories and doctor Joy will help us make sense of
what's underneath them, what they might reveal about how we're
relating to ourselves, to each other, into the world around us.
Are you ready to get into it?

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I'm ready, Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
So the first story of the week is Spirit Airlines
shut down, and we're going to talk a little bit
about accessibility to travel. So you guys may or may
not know. Spirit Airlines abruptly shut down operations this weekend.
After years of financial struggles, failed bailout efforts, and rising
fuel costs. The airline, long known for ultra low fares,

(03:34):
canceled all flights and shuttered its operations, leaving travelers stranded
and driving up prices across the industry and for many,
especially budget conscious travelers, Spirit was one of the few
accessible options for air travel. So, you know, I've been
thinking about what happens when affordability disappears from essential experiences

(03:55):
like travel, and I'm curious, what are the mental health
implications of feeling like certain experiences like a vacation or
visiting family are no longer accessible to you.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
So first, at least, I really appreciate this question, right,
because I think that it is the perfect example of
something that you wouldn't necessarily think about having a mental
health impact, but it actually does. Right when you think
about like being excluded, that's the first thing I think about,
is like being excluded from things that most people want
to participate in. And I think it really highlights this

(04:29):
othering that we find just across the board and lots
of different categories and makes people feel like these are
not things that are for me. So when you think
about like class trips, right, Like class trips when I
was in school used to just be kind of like
to our local park or somewhere drivable, and now kids
are kind of sometimes expected to fly to DC for

(04:50):
a trip or you know, go to different places. And
so when you think about even those kinds of things
are impacted, and I think the mental health impact makes
it so that people feel less. It makes it feel
as though there are things that are not meant for me,
and I think that that can cause a real hit
to self esteem. It can really impact feelings of worthiness.

(05:11):
I also think one of the things I was struck
by related to this story was the abrupt nature, because
it felt like we've heard rumblings about it and then
by the end of the week it was completely done.
And so I think business is business, people kind of say,
but I'm always really concerned about the mental health impact
of people on the workforce. Right, So the flight attendants,

(05:33):
the pilots, all of the people who are servicing the airplanes,
like just abruptly now have been terminated and don't have
gainful employment in that same way. And so I just
hope that we can get to a place where businesses
maybe are able to be a little more thoughtful, a
little more intentional about the rollout of difficult news like this.
You know, I do understand sometimes it can't be avoided,

(05:55):
but I think that that's also a huge mental health
impact of this story.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Oh, of course worse, I think across industries, when we
see people get laid off so abruptly, it is jarring.
You don't have the time to plan or to think
about what your next move is. You have to scatter
to figure it out. I have a bit of a
follow up for you when we see the gap between
the have and the have nots widening, and these experiences

(06:19):
that are supposed to provide connection for people feeling like
they're unaffordable. How can we still find connection? How can
we You might not have answers about how can we
still travel? But how can we still find connection when
some of it feels out of reach?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (06:36):
You know, I mean I think it is easy to
kind of think about, like, oh, let's just plan a
girls trip, but a girl strip doesn't necessarily have to
involve air travel, right, So I think it could be
something where you do road trips together or look at
other ways to be intentional about connecting. You know. I
know one of the things that I talk about a
lot is like old adult sleepovers or pedomal parties where

(06:57):
maybe you're in a hotel or an airbnb or even
in some one's home and just kind of have old
fashioned sleepovers, which I think are missed art for adults.
So things like that are adult field days I'm also
a big proponent of, and so I think it really
just forces us to be more creative about the ways
that we can connect and making sure that when we
are thinking about ways to bring people together. We are

(07:19):
not excluding now based on this idea that an air
travel may not be as easy as it was before
Spirit closed down. And even then, you know, like prices
have gone up across airlines, right, And so I think
even beyond this news, I think it is important for
us to just be much more intentional about looking at
different ways to connect that kind of meet all different

(07:39):
income levels.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Thank you for that. So next we're going to get
into Nick Cannon's dating double standard. So Nick Cannon recently
appeared on the TMZ podcast and admitted to having a
double standard when it comes to his fifteen year old twins.
He said that his son Moroccan is allowed to date,
while his twin sister Monroe is not. He says there
are things out there that I have to protect my

(08:02):
daughter from. This has sparked conversations around gender norms, protection,
parenting differences when it comes to boys and girls. And
I think the core tension in here is what does
protecting daughters become limiting to their autonomy? And I feel
like in so many Black families, girls are more tightly
controlled when it comes to dating and sexuality, while boys

(08:24):
are given more freedom. How does this dynamic shape black
girl's sense of autonomy, self trust, and relationship boundaries as
they grow up.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
Woo.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
So I had not heard this story. I was holding
my brother because you never know when Nick Cannon, like,
what kind of story might be kind of hitting the
handlines at this point. But this does feel like something
that I think is sadly fairly common across families, This
idea that like, boys are able to do certain things
that girls are not. And I think you really hit
the nail on the head, and that there are things

(08:54):
that young people and children need to develop skills around
regardless of gender in gender presentation, right, And so the
idea that it's okay for his son todate, but not
his girl his daughter to date, like, when is she
actually going to be able to develop the kinds of
skills she needs to become a young woman and an
adult in this world. Now, you may make the argument

(09:15):
that fifteen feels too young that I'm willing to debate,
but if it is okay for your son, then it
also should be okay for your daughter. And then it
makes me think what kinds of things are does she
needs to be protected from? And are you having those
conversations with your son, right, because in theory, that's what
you're thinking, like, oh, you know, I'm not sure what
the guys are gonna do, and you know, like, so
what kinds of conversations are you actually having with your

(09:37):
son so that other people's daughters, that is, who they
are dating, don't need protecting from. And I do think
it really limits the ability for, like I said, like
young women and young girls to develop the kinds of
skills that are necessary. We actually just had a conversation
in our Patrion community recently. A community member submitted a
question about so much of our lives as women, we

(09:58):
are taught to kind of go to school, we'll focus
on education, kind of be all about the books and
career stuff, and then at some point when our mid
twenties or so, family starts then asking all these questions
about local what are you gonna settle down, and where
you're gonna have kids and all these things, and it's like, well,
all my life you've said go do this thing, right,
and so when was I developing the skills to actually

(10:19):
be successful in relationships? And I think that this is
a part of that conversation as well. I do think
we have to get more expansive in our ideas about
what it looks like for young people to develop relationship skills,
because we can't just think that at twenty something, everybody
knows the answer is about how to manage conflict and
how to stand up for yourself, how to be assertive,

(10:40):
how do you make sure that your desires are a
center if we've never let them practice that? And that
is largely what you're doing in dating at fifteen, right,
It's teaching young people to be in tune with what
kinds of things they're interested in, how to stand up
for themselves, how to set boundaries, like all of those
things that are really important life skills.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Thank you for that. And I have a question outside
of the gender dynamic of it all, what happens when
you just see your sibling be treated differently than you.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, I'm sure that that has made for some very
uncomfortable conversations in the house. And like you said, like,
how are you even explaining that because there is no
real logic in like, oh, your twin brother can do
this and you can't, because you can't even then say
it's about age, like oh, this is something that you'll
get to do a little later, and so I think again,
for young people, they don't always have the language or

(11:30):
the understanding of like adults. Well most of the times
they don't, And so I think sometimes it can mean like, well,
what's wrong with me? Like why does this sibling get
special treatment? I mean again, it can be an impact
on self esteem or even feelings of worthiness, And so
I think you have to be very careful, especially with twins,
that there is not this like favoritism or behavior that

(11:50):
one twin is allowed that the other one is not.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Absolutely so for our third and final topic of the day,
you couldn't have me asking questions on the first Monday
in May or the hust and not talk about the Mechdala.
So this past Monday, the Metropolitan Museum of Art hosted
the twenty twenty six Metcala, officially launching the exhibit Costume Art.

(12:15):
This year's theme explores fashion as a fine art form,
specifically examining how garments have shaped and responded to the
human body over the last five thousand years, and the
dress code for the met Gala was Fashion is Art.
When I think about how the average person interacts with
the met Gala, I think a lot of people want
to be more creative with their looks. They want the opportunity,

(12:38):
whether it's a wedding or someone's milestone birthday, to have
permission to dress up. And sometimes I do think there's
this stigma or this idea that if you aren't famous,
if you aren't going to a huge event, you're being
too much if you dress up. And while the metala
is cool to watch, I think it can make us
feel like we're stuck in this rut. And for someone
who wants to start dressing more creative but feels like

(13:00):
their life is too normal for it, how do you
get over the fear of being judged or being looked at,
quote unquote weirdly.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Wooh So, I actually just read something I think it
was in the New York Times, a column about getting
weirder as we age, and I think that that is
one of the most beautiful things about getting older, is
that you kind of like let go of some of
those ideas around fitting into a box and kind of
being normal, so to speak, and get more creative and
feel more permission to be more of yourself. And I

(13:30):
think fashion is one of those places where it can
be a pretty low barrier to entry. If you're wanting
to be more experimental, and I think it is a
great way to kind of start stepping out and taking
more risks. And I talk about all the time about
just because you feel like people are paying attention to
you or you feel weird, it's okay to sit with
the feeling and still do the thing anyway. And so

(13:52):
I think fashion is one of those things where you
can actually be experimental, kind of take some opportunities to
just dress up on a random and Thursday, just because
this is also one of the ways that I think
the Internet has actually done as a favor, and that
you see so many like blogs and channels that are
really focused on just finding cool, random people on the

(14:13):
streets who have like cool fashion sense. And so I
think in some of those ways, like the weirdness and
the kind of stepping out of the box has been
celebrated and given a platform to kind of exists, whereas
maybe you know, five to seven years ago that would
not happen. But I also think it is really important
for you to know that people are not paying attention
to you as much as you think that they are. Right, Like,

(14:33):
if you think about your own kind of inner monologue
when you are going throughout your day, you're thinking about
what are you cooking for dinner, where the kids need
to be this afternoon, what other work stuff do I
need to do. You're far more interested in involved in
yourself than you typically are in other people, and so
I think that idea that you are in a spotlight
anytime you're out in public isn't always incredibly realistic. And

(14:54):
so if you are interested in being more experimental with
your fashion and just dressing up just because it's Thursday,
I think that is a great thing to do.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
You know.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
I think again, especially as we get older, it is
a good idea to kind of lean into all of
the parts of ourselves. And once you leave this earth,
you don't want to have any regrets about like, oh
I wish I would have done that thing. And so
if you feel like it is on your heart to
be in a ball gown just because it's Saturday morning
going to the former's market, go and do that, and
make sure you take some fabulous pictures.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
And for the person who's kind of on the fence
and they still feel like they need a reason to
get dressed up, what would you say to them?

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I mean, it's not hard to create a reason, I think. So,
you know, can we celebrate five hundred days at your
new job or oh, I'm celebrating whatever, like it's the
first week of May. Like, I think creating your own
celebration is fine. But I also think it could be
a fun idea to talk to friends and like make
this a group activity. So maybe y'all plan some affair

(15:55):
where people are forced to get more dressed up again.
I think to our earlier conversation about being in more
creative and intentional by connecting with one another, having a
fashion show as a friend group could be a fun
thing to do. You know, I think giving yourself permission
where it does not otherwise exist is actually a great
I think emotional regulation, mental health kind of strategy.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
I absolutely love that. And now you're giving me ideas
to find a reason for the entire team addressing.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Virtual fashion show. Well at least, but wait, but we
cannot because I know this is like your super Bowl day.
So I also need to know who are you most
looking forward to seeing at the met galup.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
So Paloma Elsesser is one of them. Always I think
her met loooks are always really underrated and the days
leading up to the met She's always posted like inspiration.
This year it's comde Garson, who I don't know if
she's being dressed by, but that's the inspo she's posted,
and they always have. I think garments, especially for women,

(16:59):
that subverb how we look at the female form. So
I always really appreciate that. At the twenty twenty five
Billboard Music Awards, Erica bad Do wore this dress that
was almost kind of alike to Sarah Bartman, who was
the woman who was experimenting on by scientists, the black woman,
And so I think Erica Baddu is already really grand

(17:20):
in the way that she plays with proportions her hats,
and then I think that was such a big moment
for her, especially like no, I don't want to say
people don't pay attention to the Billboard Music Awards, but
to wear that there was a statement. So I'm really curious.
I'm not sure if she's going, but I'm curious what
she's gonna wear, because she's also done some really fun
stuff with like Marnie in the past, and her and

(17:40):
her daughter were in a Marnie campaign. Another brand that
doesn't like subscribe to, like the naked dress, small waist,
wide hips of it all, and so I think the
people who lean into that are going to be really fun.
So Erica Paloma Elsas, they're always Tiana Taylor like, she's
always great, Rihanna like, I don't I heard Zindeia's not going.

(18:04):
So I'm a little bit sad about that. But one
of my favorite brands, who dressed Regina King last year,
who decides war. I'm hoping they have some placements on
the carpet as well, which is a black owned brand,
So I'm excited to see what they do. And a
lot of their work is inspired by like church art
and cathedrals and things like that, and so I think
there's an intersection between like the history of fashion as

(18:27):
art and what they already do. So that's going to
be exciting.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Ooh, so we should be in store for lots of
great I am of course excited. This is Asia Wilson's
first year on the host committee, and so I am
very excited to see you what kind of looks she
will give us it as well as Injelies.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Absolutely well, we will see you all next week and
stay tuned on our socials. We are going to be
asking guys what should we name this segment, and we
kind of just got into it and don't have a
name yet, so we could definitely use some help from
our loyal listeners.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Thanks Salise. More from our conversation after the break. Thank
you so much for joining us today, doctor Jones.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's so imposure to chat with you again. The conversation
we had about narcissism continues to be a community favorite.
It's one that people revisit quite often, so I thought
that it was great to bring you back for this
conversation because it feels like a bit of a spin off,
though not quite. The conversation we're having today is around
going no contact with family and friends and romantic partners.

(19:36):
So I think that there are a lot of definitions
when people are talking about no contact. But in terms
of your work, what do we mean when we're talking
about going no contact?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
So no contact to me means exactly that. It means
that once you go no contact, there is no more
contact after that. This is definitive, it's done. It's not
meant to be an action to encourage another action, meaning
I'm not going no contact with you to be punitive

(20:06):
or to get you to try to hurry up and
reach out to me and do all those things. It's
no contact because I am trying to protect my mental peace.
I have decided that this relationship is not healthy for
me anymore, and I think it's better for us to
be done with each other. In releasing this relationship, it's

(20:28):
done with love, but it's more to protect me and
my piece and where I'm at, that is what no
contact is.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
We are done.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
I appreciate the nuance that you ad it said that,
doctor Jones, because I do feel like sometimes and I
don't know that this is the definition, but I do
feel like there is sometimes a oh, is this a
manipulation kind of tactic or is it a step before
a step? But you are saying like, no, this is
we tried all of the steps and this is the
decision I'm making about what I need to take care

(20:56):
of myself and my mental health.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Absolutely, yeah, So this is not manipulativeness. There's not ill
will behind it. And there are people who try to
use it that way where they try to manipulate, but
that's not actually no contact. Those are people that are
still very much caught up in toxic relationship cycles who
are still trying to get things to happen on their terms,

(21:22):
or they're just used to having certain reactions and certain
relationship dynamics. But when you go no contact, this is
not meant to be mean. It's not meant to manipulate you,
and it's not done to try to hurt you. Now,
how you may interpret that, that's on you, but it's
meant to be Mostly from my piece, it's saying definitively,

(21:44):
I don't want relationships like this anymore. I'm in a
different space for that.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
And so you know, I think in both of our work,
you know, when a client or somebody finally gets to
this place, it is not usually a first step, right, Like,
this is not typically the first action that somebody takes.
Typically there have been lots of different things that have
happened before somebody makes the decision to go no contact.
Can you talk about, like what's typically going on in

(22:10):
somebody's life when they make the decision to go no contact.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
So I don't think it's the first step for a
lot of people. I think a lot of things tend
to happen before people go no contact. I don't think
it's necessarily healthy for all these things to happen before
people decide to go because usually so much disrespect has

(22:34):
happened in the relationship, usually before children or people decide
to go no contact with their parents, usually it's been
years worth of stuff. So a lot of times the
steps that tend to happen before people go no contact.
A lot of times again there's like so much disrespect

(22:57):
that happens, and their children question, like, am I not lovable?
Do my parents love me? Am I being a disrespectful child.
Family members or the community at large will come into
play here and say, well, you only get one mama,
you only get one daddy. You need to forgive it

(23:17):
and forget it and move on. These are your parents.
So a lot of times what tends to happen is children,
especially our condition to shoulder the burden of disrespect for
many years before they do that, and everything under the
sun is typically happening as a part of that dynamic.

(23:39):
And so what they will tend to do is they'll
come to somebody like me and they'll say, is there
something wrong with me? Am I wrong for thinking this way?
What is going on? What should I do with this? Well?
If I've thought about doing this, but I was told
by my sister, my brother, my aunts, my grandma, and
all of these type of people that I'm selfish and
that I need to get over it, or that my

(24:01):
feelings aren't valid, or I'm being shown by the community,
my church community even that I need to honor thy mother,
honor thy father. And that basically means that I have
to neglect my own emotions before I'm able to do that,
before I'm able to say or do anything to protect myself.

(24:24):
And so I'm not really clear on what that means.
So what has happened, especially when it come to somebody
like me, is we get clarity around what's going on,
what you're needing from the relationship, and what certain things
have meant. So if there's been some disrespect that's going on,
or betrayals or things like that, they need to get

(24:45):
clarification and validation. Is this something that like a big deal?
Is this something that like I should be worried about.
In what I've learned to tell people over the years
is if you take the title away from that person,
So the title of that person was not mom or dad,

(25:05):
but was anybody else in your life? What would your
actions be right? Will we be sitting here having this conversation?
Would there be so much turmoil Because a lot of
times people will allow their parents to get away with everything,
including murder, and only because that's my mama, that's my blood,

(25:26):
that's how we are, especially if you're in the black community.
But if we take that away and say, would you
allow that in any other aspect of your life, then
why are we allowing that here? Because they're actually treating
you worse than your worst enemy. So there's all of
that sort of processing. There's also processing what that would mean,

(25:46):
what that would look like to go no contact? How
would your life look? How do you want your life
to look if you were to go down this road?
Is that something that you're really ready to let go?
And so usually there's like a series of actions, there's
like a series of confirmations or things that happen before
people actually even get to that step. It's not a

(26:09):
decision that many people take lightly. Many people what they
tend to do is they may go low contact, so
they may stop talking to whomever for a little bit
and see how that feels. I always encourage people to
do that. Take little vacations or holidays from that person,
if you will to see how your life feels without

(26:30):
them in it. So if you, for example, if you
talk to your mother every day and your mother's cussing
you out, she's violating your boundaries, and then you take
like two weeks off from her, how does your life
look within those two weeks away from her? And a
lot of times it's significantly better. I'm not anxious, I'm
not depressed, I'm not suicidal, I'm not second guessing myself.

(26:55):
I actually feel relieved. I don't have to prete and
when I'm in the room with her, pretend to actually
like her, pretend to actually want to engage with her,
I actually feel more authentic towards myself. So those are
a lot of the steps that we would take in
going that direction.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, and as you mentioned, like there are a lot
of steps involved. And usually once somebody gets to the
place of feeling like, Okay, I'm going to cut off
contact with this person. I'm going to go no contact
with this person, the response from other people is often
what gets in the way of them sticking with this decision. Right,
So you mentioned it's not just cutting that person off.

(27:36):
It could also mean cutting off connections to other people
in the family and other people in the friend group.
Can you say more about that and how you might
manage being cut off then from these other people as well.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
I'm going to say something that's probably non traditional. Probably
we go against the grant. I jope even mind their
own damn business. Mind your own damn business, if you
don't pay my bias. If you don't know what I've
been through, right, because a lot of times people were
talking out of turn. They weren't raised under the same roof.

(28:09):
They don't know what I go through day to day
with this person. They're just talking based off of what
their experiences are or how they would handle things. But
they don't know what this person is like behind closed doors.
You don't know my mom is calling me everything but
a child of God. You don't know that my mom
tried to sleep with my boyfriend or all these other things.

(28:30):
Right that other situations that people go you don't know
what's going on. So if I can't take I don't
recommend people take blinded vice from those who are not
familiar with your situation or familiar with the true person
that you're dealing with. A lot of people that tell
you to do that, they don't even really know who

(28:51):
that person is. They're dealing with the actor. They're dealing
with the person who puts on the mask and goes
out and performs for the world. But they don't know
the genuine person, which is who I have to deal with,
who I'm talking to on the phone with, who I'm
laying in bed next to, whatever the case may be.
You don't know that actual person. So I'm going to

(29:12):
respectfully need for you to stay in your lane and
mind your business, and I'm allowed to be the author
of my own life, right, And so I think it
really takes that sort of stands and a lot of
people look at that as being selfish. You do have
to be selfish to take care of your own mental health.

(29:33):
You do have to be selfish in order to mind
your own well being. That's not selfish in a bad way.
It's like you have to take care of yourself first
before you can take care of anybody else. But do
you ask anybody else for advice when you go to
a doctor when you're feeling sick? Do you sit around
and wait for somebody? You ask somebody else for advice

(29:53):
when you have to eat, or when you have to
take certain medications, do you say, hey, I don't know
if I should eat or not? Do you really do that?
I think people, when you've been abused for so long,
you've been conditioned to second guess your voice, second guess
your opinions. I invite people to, hey, take control of

(30:16):
your life back, take your autonomy back, start making your
own self directed decisions where you don't need permission from
anybody else.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
What do you think is often misunderstood in this conversation?

Speaker 3 (30:31):
That's a good question. I think what's misunderstood, and I
think a lot of that that has cultural nuance, right,
But I think probably the biggest misunderstanding is that children
don't deserve especially when you're talking about going no contact
with parents, when you talking about going no children, adult children,

(30:52):
going no contact with parents, I think the biggest misunderstanding
is that children don't deserve respect. Children should not be
allowed to make their own decisions. Children don't deserve to
be apologized to that children just you should take copious
amounts of disrespect, You should take copious amounts of betrayal,

(31:16):
and forget how you feel, just make up every single time.
Just forget how you feel give them a pass for
the simple fact that it's your parents, And I think
that's the thing, or that children should be self sacrificing
because their parents decided to give birth to them. So therefore,
because I'm your mother and I decided to give birth

(31:38):
to you, no matter how I treat you, you should
always be self sacrificing because I brought you into this
world and I have labored the cost of having you. Therefore,
you need to be eternally grateful and you are forever
indebted to me because.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Of that, And it feels like, you know, I think
most recently there was this conversation gained more attraction because
Oprah did a podcast conversation about like people who have
gone no contact, and like, one of the headlines that
was used was that it was a trend. And you know,
of course, a lot of people who have made the
decision to go no contact don't feel like it was
a trend, because I think trend makes it feel as

(32:17):
though this is a decision you made lightly right. But
the other part of that story has been that a
lot of the parents have come out and said, like, oh,
I didn't recognize that there were these things that they
felt about me, or the parents have felt that it
was unwarranted right that I didn't do anything, so to speak,
for this person to go no contact with me. Do

(32:40):
you think that that is typically the case, doctor Jones,
that like parents don't realize that all of these things.
If we're talking about parents, right, because that's the example
we've used, do you think it's the case that parents
don't realize like the ways that they have harmed their
children or the people who they've been caregivers for and
are like shocked by this decision.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
No, I don't think that's the case. I think what
happens is that parents don't care. Again, it's more or
less when you become a parent. There are different stages
of parenting, just like there's different stages of a child
being a child. And I think what tends to happen
with parents. A lot of times, toxic parents still want

(33:23):
their child to obey, be obedient to me, and be
subservient to me. You are a child, which means you
have no voice, you have no power, and no authority.
And so what I've noticed a lot of times with
these parents who do this, they often speak to their
children in a condescending manner like you do not have

(33:48):
the right to feel the way that you do, to
speak up and say anything. You need to stay in
a child's place, right, And it's often that sort of
negati rhetoric, and it becomes a rhetoric so much so
that they don't want to hear what their child is
saying to them. They don't respect their child's evolution into adulthood,

(34:12):
but they don't respect their children in general, because I
think even when a child is small or a baby,
they still need their voice respected, their boundaries respected. Children
need to be listened. They're their own autonomous human being.
And what you have a lot of times in these
cases with these parents is like, I don't see my
child as an individual. I don't want my child to

(34:35):
be a free thinker. I want my child to be
is something that I control every aspect of their life.
I have to say so, and I don't really want
any sort of rebuttal. I don't want any individuality. I
don't want any sort of difference of opinion. I just
want what I want is I bulldoze my way through
that relationship. And so when you have parents that think

(35:00):
like this, they just want what they want and they've
heard it before. Most of the adult children have tried
to talk to them. They don't want to hear it.
They shoot it down, and parents will give their children
the silent treatment. Now that's more of the manipulation piece,
where the parents will stop talking to their child and

(35:20):
the stonewall the argument, and eventually the child sort of
caves in and okay, mom or okay Dad, I have
to do this have a relationship with you. I have
to give in and let you have your way, otherwise
we don't have a relationship. So a lot of times
children are in this relationship through manipulation and fear. If

(35:41):
I don't cater to my parent, if I don't give
them what I want, then we don't have a relationship.
I want some kind of relationship with them. I don't
want to be in this world alone or without my parents,
so I have to capitulate and give them what they want.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
And you know, you've talked about this and and frame
this as a way of kind of people making this
decision to protect their mental health as a step towards
their well being. But oftentimes people are seen as difficult
or dramatic or doing too much if they are setting
boundaries in this way, What do you think needs to
change for us to expand that conversation beyond people being
dramatic if they make a decision like this.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
What does not even mean for somebody to be dramatic?
And again I think that's the thing, like, what does
that even mean for someone to be dramatic? How you
would handle a situation is not necessarily how I handle
a situation. So being dramatic is open to interpretation, right,

(36:39):
And you also have to think about like which a
lot of people don't, right, But you also have to
think about what's happening on the other end for somebody
to have such an adverse reaction to what's going on,
if that makes sense, right, So if I'm being dramatic,

(37:00):
happening on the other end of that where I'm being dramatic, right,
especially if you know that that's not my personality style,
or if you don't know me at all, Right, So
I think that's one thing. But I also think, going
back to what I was saying before, sometimes people need
to know their place and respect a boundary. So a

(37:21):
lot of times people will not interfere or speak up
until the abuser triangulates them and brings them into a situation.
What an abuser warns is an audience. They'll quickly have
a lot of people come to defend their honor. And
so when you think about children who go no contact,

(37:44):
the first thing I said, where is the community? Where's
the community been all this time? So where's where have
your grandparents been all the time? Where have ANNs and
uncles and people who've actually witnessed the abuse, Where have
they been all this time? What have they been doing?
Have they interfered and been a safety net for you
up until this point? And a lot of times it's no,

(38:06):
they haven't been, or oh they always chose to look
the other way, or they've said, oh, it's not my business.
But now, all of a sudden, all these people come
rushing to the aid of or to the defense of
someone who's an abuser. So they're very selective with their
help and interventions, and it's all one sided. And again

(38:29):
it's very it's mostly geared towards one person, where as
you ostracize the other person or keep them out, or
it's like you need to just calm down and you
need to be more subordinate and get back in your lane.
And so I would say that people, if they're going
to intervene or be a safe space, you need to

(38:51):
listen and hear with what's really going on and not
come in towards the tail end of the story or
be swayed by one person on everything, If that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Do you think that there's a difference between going no
contact with parents versus like a sibling versus like a
friend or a former friend. Is there a difference in
what the no contact looks like?

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Typically, I wouldn't say there's a difference and what no
contact looks like. What I would say is is typically
more difficult for people to go no contact with their
parents because again, it's constantly being hammered. You only get
one set of parents, and it's for parents. You do

(39:36):
only get one mom, you do only get one dad.
So I would say it's harder for them to do that,
at least in my experience in working with them, than
it is with siblings and with friends. Friends you can
go out and get another one. Siblings, if you have
another one, it's usually a little bit easier another one
that's supportive or that you at least have a relationship with.

(39:58):
But parents that's a little bit more finite for people,
and so once you're.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Done with them and those are all you have, what
does as a clinician supporting somebody through the grief process
of going no contact look like, Because even though it
may have been an abusive situation, not a great situation,
it is the situation that you had, and there is
of course still typically some grief related to having to
cut off that relationship. So what does that really like

(40:24):
to support somebody after the decision?

Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah, So I think it's important to educate people on
what no contact is. So there's a lot of education
around what it is and what it isn't. Right, there's
a difference between no contact and low contact, but also
educating a person on why they would do certain things.
So people need to be fully educated and informed, and

(40:48):
so I think there's that. There is also making sure
that a person is ready to do that. So again,
it's a finite situation. It isn't you stick your toe
in the pool and then you come back, and then
you stick your toe in the pool again and then
you come back. It really should be more of a

(41:09):
this is a final decision. I'm okay, I'm at peace
with it, and so understanding what that means. And so
what I have done when people have started to talk
about that is to advise people like, Okay, well you
want to be sure to do that. And part of
the ways in which you want to be sure to
do that is maybe you do want to take a

(41:31):
break from your parents, because it's easier to say I'm
going to take a break as opposed to I'm going
no contact, So maybe you might want to take an
extended break is see what your life is like without
that parent first before you commit to something that should
be a permanent decision. And so people do that, but

(41:54):
then we also go through the grieving process of what
that means, because a lot of times going contact is
really like grieving two deaths and one person. So is
grieving for the parent that you actually hope you could
have and the parent you actually do have that is
physically still here on earth right And a lot of

(42:18):
times the grief is harder for the parent that you
wish for, that you longed for, that you hope that
they would magically turn into one day. And so a
lot of times that's hard for people is to like
process the death of what could never be and what
will never be, as opposed to what is, and so

(42:40):
we work through ways of doing that and then we
move through that, and sometimes that's typically the longest part,
is grieving the death of what will never be. And
then of course you get to that place of acceptance.
When you get to that place of acceptance, you say, Okay,

(43:00):
well I've gotten I've let go of the person that
will never be, and now I have accepted my parents
for who they actually are or that person for who
they actually are. And so I'm not sugarcoating anything, and
I understand this is what actually needs to be done
for my mental health, for my sanity in order for

(43:22):
me to go through life, to have the type of
life that I want. I understand the ramifications of it.
I understand how this person has affected me all of
these years, and I don't like that. So I'm allowing
myself to be honest with myself about what this means.
And then once we move to the place of acceptance,

(43:45):
we can allow space for other people to come in
and fill that void. So I often encourage allowing space
for like mother like or father like, or a grandmother
like or a grandfather like figures to come into your
life to provide that nurturing care and support that you

(44:06):
wish for all those years with your parents, but you
never got doctor Jones.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
If you had a client who you were working with
this on and they are kind of in the beginning stages,
like not quite sure if they want to go no contact,
is this typically a conversation that you'd be encouraging them
to have to let mom know, like, hey, I no
longer want to be involved in your life or want
to have you a part of mine, or is it
kind of just gradually just we don't talk anymore.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
I don't usually encourage that. I don't usually encourage it,
especially when there's a lot of manipulation and stuff going on,
or your parent is high conflict. If you have a
parent that's highly conflicted, is volatile, physically aggressive, and thinks
I don't encourage trying to have those types of conversations,

(44:55):
especially when you yourself aren't clear. When you become more
clear and definitive and you can actually walk away and
you're not invested in a result, then maybe you can
have that conversation. Everybody's situation is different. Sometimes people have
parents that are highly volatile and it's just not safe
for them to do that. So everybody's situation is different,

(45:18):
but I don't encourage that type of conversation until you're clear,
you're pretty definitive of what you're gonna do, and you're
ready to be done after that. Otherwise I think that's
more or less something you need to be processing with
your therapist. You need to have your own sense of

(45:38):
clarity and autonomy on that decision and come to terms
with that. In my experience, a lot of times when
people go no contact when their parents, and this isn't
every situation. Everybody's situation is different, but a lot of
times when people go no contact with their parents, it's fine.

(45:59):
They're not reaching out to their parents, aren't reaching out
to them. That person is the only person that's keeping
the relationship alive. So there's that. You can also have
parents that are highly enmeshed as well, that they want
to be involved in every aspect of their child's life.
But a lot of kids what they fail to realize

(46:21):
if they don't do anything there, the other person is
not going to necessarily do anything until they need or
want something. And so a lot of times if they're
not overdoing it trying to make that connection with the parent,
things might wither away all on their own.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
The other question I have, Doctor Jones, is around like
the logistics, especially when we're talking about a family member. Right,
you just said virtual or like telephone contact is one thing,
but what about family events? Right? So let's say I've
gone no contact with my dad, but then my brother
is getting married. So then do I make the decision
not to go to the wedding because I'm no contact

(46:58):
with dad? Do I go and just avoid contact with dad?

Speaker 4 (47:01):
Like?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
What decision making can you explore there?

Speaker 3 (47:05):
That's a good question, and I think you have to
assess how important that relationship is with you. So if
that relationship is still very much important with you, a
still very much a part of your life. If your
brother's getting married with the example, so if you want
to show up for your brother, then show up for
your brother. Don't allow anybody to take that power away

(47:27):
from you. You can still go in and again I
would encourage processing this with your therapist, but always have
your boundaries, have your limits. You could certainly be cordial
if you guys are going to be in the same space,
but chances are if you give that parent too much
energy or too much airtime, they might show up and

(47:49):
act a fool, and you could let the other person know, right,
So you could let your brother know, Hey, I'm going
to show up for you, and you kind of know
where I'm at with this relationship and I want to
to go smoothly. But here's what I'm not open to.
And I want this day to be about you and
not about our family conflict. And so these are my intentions.

(48:11):
I'm going to show up for you. I'm going to
do X, Y and Z, but outside of that, I
can't be a part of all this other stuff, right,
So you could set limits. You can also prepare the
other person without it encroaching too much on their celebration,
but you could let them know what you will and
won't do and just be very graceful about it.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
More from our conversation after the break, and what does
it look like for us to maybe support somebody in
our lives who has made the decision to go no contact? Right,
So instead of saying like, oh, you only have one father,

(48:56):
you only have one mother, Like, what does it actually
look like to support somebody in their decision to go
no contact?

Speaker 3 (49:02):
Everybody is a little bit different, but I think the
best way is to ask them, How can I support you? In?
What ways? Do you feel like support is needed for
you while you're.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Going through this.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Some people don't want to talk about it. Some people
may want to talk about it later on. Some people
may need this, that and the other thing. And so
you can offer, You can ask and say, how can
I show up for you? Would it be helpful if
I did X, Y, and Z. I want to respect
whatever your boundaries are, so you can just ask and

(49:35):
see how you can support them.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
Letter Jales. Something that often comes up around these conversations,
and I think we've had some version of this conversation before,
like these terms that are often thrown around in terms
of somebody being toxic or abusive, or how are you
working with clients to kind of get some clarity around
what they're meaning when they say certain things.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Bil That's a good question. So a lot of times
what I ask people to do is to clarify that.
So how do you define that? Like what are you
using to gauge that? Right? Especially now that social media
is as big as as it is, a lot of
people are getting their ideas or their definitions from social media.

(50:20):
So I always ask them to clarify that and tell
them to explain to me how that person is impacting
their life and their livelihood. Right, So let's piece this out.
How is this person affecting your life? Is this something
that was a one off situation or is this like

(50:41):
something that's happened over the years many times over? Like,
how do you define that? Right? Because those are words
that I've used, right, And those are words that you
have used and that Oprah or whomever has used. How
do you define that for yourself? And a lot of
times people will have different meanings. It's also helpful to

(51:05):
take into take culture into context because I've worked with
people who are from all over so how I define
things or look at things in the US might be
different from how people from Africa look at things over there, right,
Because the US is a very individualistic society, so we're all, hey,

(51:30):
this is what I want from me, this is what
I need from me. But then you might have people
that listen to me or watch you this from a
very collectivist society. So they can't move just out of
their family like we say we can move. It's going
to be different. And I try to take into account
cultural nuances and things like that as well.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
You know, You bring up an interesting point because I
think definitely somebody from a more collectivist culture would probably
have more of a struggle with go no contact, right,
because it is so much of one big unit. Can
you share anything there or any kinds of considerations you
might think about if somebody does come from that kind
of a cultural background.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Absolutely, so, I think even within collectivists, which is they're
looking for the greater good of the family unit, the
greater good of the community. But still there is some level,
or should be, some level of individual autonomy. So even

(52:31):
within a collective group, all the members still have to
be doing well. And every culture is a little bit different.
There's some even within cultures there's subculture. Some require complete subordination,
meaning that you can't say anything, or some require that
if you are a woman, have to get in line right,

(52:54):
And some people if you take it to an elder
in your family and then you get some of vice
from an elder, they can help you navigate the situation.
So when I try to use tools within that community
whenever it's possible, it's not always possible to do that,

(53:14):
especially if the whole family is toxic. So for example,
and this isn't meant to be discriminatory or prejudice or anything.
But I've worked with Arab cultures before as well, and
a lot of times in several Arab cultures, the whole
family could.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
Be at odds.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
So everybody is fighting, and so we look at ways
on which what's most beneficial for you. But they're also
very heavily in meshed. So while everybody may be fighting,
we might work together, we might live together, we might
go to church together. So I can't just get up
and walk out, otherwise that's going to create a whole

(53:55):
different polarity. So it's talking about what we can do
within that culture that's also safe for you within your family.
And then we also talk about whether or not that's
realistic or not. And sometimes it's not realistic to stay
connected to the entire family unit without having to walk

(54:19):
away from all of it, because all of it is toxic,
all of it is abusive. We put hands on each other,
men have sexually abused within my family, whatever the case
may be. Sometimes we can't stay connected, and so we
talk about what's realistic, what's practical, what you're willing to do,

(54:39):
and whether or not that's feasible for you to have
some peace and clarity. I hope that helps to answer
your question, doctor Joy.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
We know that it is incredibly difficult to leave abusive
situations right in like domestic violence kinds of situations. We
know that they're like seven times before somebody leaves us
it suation. So it is incredibly difficult to extract yourself
from a relationship that is abusive. What kinds of things
make it more likely that somebody is able to remove

(55:11):
themselves and permanently go no contact? What kinds of supports
do you think need to be in place?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Again, everybody's different, but I think the biggest thing would
be finances. So if you're able to navigate this world,
I think just being able to cover your cost of living,
that's probably going to be a huge one. Like being
able to take care of yourself, being able to cover
all of your living expenses, you will be able to

(55:39):
navigate this world much easier versus someone who is financially
dependent on someone else or who doesn't know anything about
managing finances. So I would say that that's huge because
that's probably the number one thing that I would say
that people fight over, or the number one way that

(56:00):
people control other people as well, So I think that's
number one. Number two, and again it doesn't mean it's
less important. But number two is your mental health and
well being. So if you have sound mind, you have
confidence and wherewithal in other areas outside of your life,

(56:22):
you can make sound decisions for yourself. And I'm not
saying that we can't make mistakes, because we can certainly
make mistakes, but by and large, you know what it
takes to be a functioning adult in this world, and
you can manage most things. I think that's number two, right.
You could take care of yourself. If your mental health
gets out of balance, you will make that decision to

(56:44):
go to therapy. You will go and take that antidepressant
if necessary. You have that way of rationalizing and taking
care of yourself and prioritizing yourself in that way. Number
three I would say validation. You have to be able
to validate yourself. There's a good chance that when you

(57:07):
walk away, you go no contact, you might lose a
lot of the validation that you have that cycle of
people that were in line with the person that was
abusive to you. You might lose family validation, you might
lose family support, you might lose relationships or relationships can

(57:28):
be deeply impacted by there could be a ripple effect.
So you have to be okay with that, and sometimes
a lot of people. You have to be okay with
being by yourself. You got to be okay with navigating
the world all alone and it's you and just you
and nobody else, and nobody cares, because once you've walked away,

(57:49):
you have become public enemy number once. You have to
be okay with navigating spaces by yourself. You have to
be okay with having your birthday by yourself, having your
way by yourself, all of these things, right, you have
to be okay with that, And so you have to
also be okay with starting over and really building your
community from scratch. You don't have that choice when you're

(58:13):
a kid, when you're little, your baby, your family and
things like that are already chosen for you. But now
you basically have to pick and choose, and that could
be a beautiful thing. You have to pick and choose
your own community now, and so you literally have to
build everything from the ground up, and so you have
to be okay with that. A lot of people don't

(58:34):
like being by themselves, and that's really one of the
harder parts with them, like I don't want to be
by myself. I don't want to be without my partner,
I don't want to be without my parents. So you
have to be okay with being alone. You have to
get comfortable with being alone and standing on your own
because a lot of times that's what's wired to be
an autonomous individual, to be a free thinker, to be

(58:57):
a person that is okay with having different schools of thought.
So you have to be okay with that.

Speaker 4 (59:03):
I would say.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
Those are the top three things, and number four I
think is being okay with having conversations about your decisions.
So what that looks like is okay being okay with saying, oh,
I don't have a relationship with my parents, and being
able to stand in your truth without feeling ashamed, without

(59:25):
feeling embarrassed, without feeling like you have to explain or
justify or say something on the back end, so people
feel like you're an okay person or nothing's wrong with you.
I think that's the bigger thing, is feeling like you
don't have to justify yourself. You don't have to explain yourself.
You made this decision and you're okay with that, And

(59:47):
I think that's the thing, is being able to navigate
those conversations about that.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
That's incredibly helpful. Thank you for that, doctor Jones. You know,
in the early part of the conversation, you said that
you feel like people almost wait too long before before
they go no contact, because they tend to put up
with a lot of disrespect, a lot of abuse. How
do you know what the line is? How do you
know whether just some good old boundary setting will work
with a relationship versus when it may actually be time

(01:00:14):
to go no contact.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
That's a good question, doctor Jorian. I'm forty six years old,
so I think about this a lot differently than when
you probably interviewed I don't know how many years ago
when you first interviewed me. Now that I'm almost fifty,
I would say, and this might be a little harsh
for people, but I would say, you want to draw
the line at the first sign of disrespect, At the

(01:00:36):
very first sign of disrespect. It can be very hard
to walk it back, especially with family. Family knows what
buttons to push because they've created and designed those buttons,
and so a lot of times that disrespect would go
on and on and on, and sometimes it gets to
a point where you don't even know you're being disrespected anymore.

(01:01:00):
You know what I'm saying, because it's so common, it's, Oh,
that's just how we do things. That's how they've always
talked to me. Oh, it's no big thing until someone
from the outside looking in as WHOA, what happened there?
What was said there? That's crazy that your mama talks
to you like that, or that your daddy talks to
you like that? What is that about? And so, now

(01:01:21):
that I'm older, I would say, you want to get
very comfortable with drawing the first line, withdrawing the line
at the first sign of disrespect, and that's with anybody,
because if you don't, people will continue to disrespect you
with family and things like that. I understand you definitely
want to speak to that and you want to nip

(01:01:42):
that in the bud right away. But chances are, if
you're listening to your podcast, my podcast, chances are you're
an adult. So chances are that's been going on many
years before they came to me and you to listen,
right so, we're probably already at a point where it's
gotten to be gotten to be crazy, and so what

(01:02:02):
I would do then, is I would set the limits.
I would say, you know what, you need to do
some things before we have that conversation. I'm going to
pull back some of my energy. And so maybe what
that looks like if my mother, as a hypothetical example
of my mother has gotten comfortable with being disrespectful to me.

(01:02:23):
A good example would be if I've told my mother
something in confidence and my mother turns around and tells
everybody who would listen all the things that I've told
her in confidence, ultimately betraying me. I'm not going to
tell you things in confidence anymore. I'm not going to
tell you or share things with you that I would

(01:02:44):
not mind if they were published on the front page
of the newspaper. So you're going to be treated just
the same as I would treat like a work associate.
Right when it comes to my personal information, You'll have
to learn just like everybody else learns about that type
of stuff, Right, So you don't get the same amount

(01:03:05):
of privilege that I've just been giving you to my
own detriment, if that makes sense. So I'm a little
bit more selective about what I share with you. I'm
also a lot more conditional right in terms of our relationship, Like,
we can't go back to a place of comfort until X, Y,

(01:03:25):
and Z happens. And that's not me trying to exert
my power or authority or being manipulative over my mother.
It's like, in order for us to have a good relationship,
or to even see if we have the potential for
a good relationship, maybe we got to go to therapy.
We have to go to a neutral third party. We've

(01:03:46):
got to talk about some stuff, and we have to
really establish those boundaries. So if we can get back
to a place of understanding, if we can get back
to a place where there's respectful communication, well, I don't
want to hear it thereists. I don't want nobody in
my business. Well, these are what my conditions are, Like
I love you as my mother, be like my conditions are.

(01:04:08):
In order for us to continue like this, we have
to get to a place where we can respect each other,
where we can communicate and talk to each other without
you calling me everything but a child of God, without
you getting out of character and things like that. So
I would say, those are some of the things that
we can do, but you have to be the agent

(01:04:30):
of change. Because what tends happen, especially when we're talking
about our parents, especially if your parents are older, if
they're like sixty, seventy, eighty ninety or however old they are,
there's a good chance, I won't say always, but there's
a good chance that your parents are who they are
and they're not changing. They're not changing for you, they're

(01:04:52):
not changing for anybody because they don't see anything wrong.
So you have to be the agent of change.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
And your life regardless of whether or not they change
or not. And that can be difficult, right, like to
know to your point around the grief of the parent
that you wish that you had coming to terms with
the idea that this is who they are, and I
got to deal with.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
The reality of it. Thank yes, Well, this has been
so helpful and I think a lot of our community
will really appreciate everything you shared. Doctor Jones. Please remind
us where we can stay connected with you. What is
your website as well as any social media channels you'd
like to share.

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
Absolutely so, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Across all social media platforms. Probably the one that's most
popping right now this my TikTok, And of course we've
been pods sisters for I don't know how many years now,
what is it like? Eight years? Is it goinger? You
years short?

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
I think closer to ten, doctor Jones.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
No, I think, yes, I've lost some COVID makes me
for some time yet, so ten years we've been joined
this thing, right, But you know, of course, you can
find me on my podcast A Date with Darkness podcasts
my website Doctor Natalie Jones dot com. So I have
some other things that I have in the works for
you guys that are going to be showcased soon enough.

(01:06:10):
But doctor Natalie Jones dot com. You can find me
on there, and that gives you the link to everything.
And of course I appreciate you having me on here.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Of course, thank you so much for joining us again.
We'll be short to include that in our show notes.
I'm so happy doctor Jones was able to return and
chat with us for this conversation. To learn more about
her and her work, be sure to visit the show
notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session
for sixty two, and don't forget to text this episode

(01:06:40):
to two of your girls right now and tell them
to check it out. Did you know that you could
leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
the podcast. If you have topics you think we should discuss,
drop us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy
for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

(01:07:00):
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls,
or join us over and our Patreon for exclusive updates,
behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indi Tubu, and Tyree Rush.

(01:07:21):
Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
much for joining me again this week. I look forward
to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Take good care.

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Host

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 462: Going No Contact