Books Behind Bars, Navigating Trauma, and a Holiday Check-In with the True Crime Tonight Team

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on IHEARK Radio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,
with Body Moven and Courtney Armstrong. Listen, everybody. It is Tuesday,
December twenty third, just two days before Christmas, and we
have a stack night of headlines. But we also have
a very special topic that we want to unpack because

(00:42):
this is the time of year that we want to
be sharing, we want to be hearing new ideas, and
there's no better person to be joining us than Michelle Dillon.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
So a little backstory.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
As we head into the holidays, we're spotlighting a specific
organization that gains something really meaningful to.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
People who often get forgotten.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's for many of those who are behind bars serving time.
Things like books aren't even readily available. So imagine you
want to improve your life, you want to do better,
you want to reform, but yet you don't have access
to even the basics.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Like a really great book.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
So tonight, our very special guest who was joining us
from across the world. Quite frankly, you know it's nighttime here,
but basically four am at her time, is Michelle Dillon,
vice president of Books for Prisoners, a nonprofit that sends
free books to incarcerated people all across the country. And Michelle,

(01:40):
we're so happy to have you here, thank you for
getting up so early, and we're wishing you a very
pre happy holiday.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
So yeah, welcome Michelle.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Thank you all very much for having me. Happy holidays
to you all as well. And I'm really excited to
be able to share this wonderful work with all of
you today.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
And for listeners who may not know put Books to Prisoners,
you know, I get it, auence knows. I guess the
titles for itself. But how did you get into this
and how does this program work?

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Yes, as you said, books to prisoners? Thankfully, our organization
name is fairly self explanatory. We are focused on sending
free reading materials to people who are incarcerated across the
United States. We started in nineteen seventy three, so we've
actually been around for more than fifty years now doing

(02:31):
the same mission. When we started, we started to serve
political prisoners, but we very quickly realized that the need
was so much greater than that population. You know, everybody
who was incarcerated needed access to books and magazines and
other reading materials. So we expanded to include anybody who

(02:52):
writes to make a request for books to us. And
we are one of several dozen groups around the country
that all share this mission of providing books to people
who are incarcerated in jails and prisons and immigration detention centers.
Some of us work nationally, like Books to Prisoners Seattle.

(03:13):
Others of us have a special focus, like LGBT Books
to Prisoners or Books to Women in Prisons. And I
got involved because at the time I was living in
Seattle getting my Master of Library and Information Science at
the University of Washington, and I'd always envisioned myself as

(03:34):
maybe a public librarian or an academic librarian, because I
had this focus on getting information to people who don't
necessarily have consistent access to it. Like in public librarians right,
they serve a lot of otherwise underserved people who wouldn't
be able to go to a bookstore and buy books,

(03:57):
or might have unstable high I came across Books to Prisoners,
and I realized that there was this entirely other level
of need for information. People who are in prisons don't
have access to the roots that we would think about.
They can't walk into a Barnes and Noble, they can't

(04:19):
get on the Internet even for the most part, and
definitely not unsupervised. So all of the information that they
receive is heavily gate kept and often very restricted. So
when I started volunteering for Books to Prisoners, and this
was back in twenty twelve, I just fell in love
with the organization and its mission and just this vast

(04:42):
need that I saw from the letters that we were receiving.

Speaker 5 (04:46):
That's so remarkable in Michelle. I just on a personal level,
I thought really long and hard about going and getting
my degree in library science.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
So I absolutely you would still be a great library
and Courtney read I think than anybody I know.

Speaker 5 (05:06):
So I just want to say I remear what you do,
and even more so with this, I have a question
for you, So, why do you think this program resonates
sort of so deeply with people who are both inside
and outside of the prison system.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
I think that this program resonates so much for the
same reason that you wanted to go and get your
library degree. I think a lot of us have had
this sort of personal experience with books and learning that
has stayed with us for our entire lives into this
transformative experience. And when we tell people that we send

(05:46):
books to people who are incarcerated, it just sort of
lights them up. I start thinking, oh, yeah, I remember
back to when I was a kid and I walked
into my public library and I found that one book
on the shelf. You know, the librarian helped guide my
interests and set my path for the rest of my life.
It's a very straightforward mission, right, we send books to

(06:09):
people who don't have books. Who can argue against that.

Speaker 6 (06:14):
Right.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
Books are great, Books are fantastic.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Honestly, even hearing you talk about your mission, I somehow
feel a little oddly choked up.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Just now, I got covered head to toe in chills.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
I think number one because of the purpose, and number
two imagine you're literally in a cell. The world is
very small when you've been incarcerated, and putting crime aside
and the reason for why you're there aside for a moment,
how small that world is. Right, So, how do you
imagine a bigger life. I was a literature major, and

(06:47):
frankly don't read nearly as much as I should because
growing up that was the way out of.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Just about anything.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Was a really good book sort of made the world
that may have felt small at the time really really big. Right,
So it's through other people's stories that we realize how.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Important your own story could be. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
For some reason, whatever you're saying right now just has
like hit me harder than I expected.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
I really love to hear that, because again, we get
a lot of volunteers in at books to prisoners, and
for a lot of them, this might be their first contact,
like true contact with anybody who has been incarcerated is
getting these request letters and reading through them and reading
through what the conditions are like inside of prisons. Because

(07:37):
we don't have any format for people to request books
from us, so they can just write a letter, and
so the letters that we receive come in every format.
Some people write in and they say, hey, please send
me the biggest, thickest book that you have. You know,
if it's a thousand pages, the more the better. Because

(07:58):
I'm sitting here staring at my w twenty four hours
a day and I just want like a great high
fantasy book to help me escape this, or they'll write
in and they'll say, you know, I am looking for
books about my heritage. Do you have any books about
the Latin X experience in the United States or Black history,

(08:21):
things like that, things that help them connect with their
heritage and their roots or even just as you said,
expand their world views.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
You are listening to True Crime tonight. I am Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
I am here as always, just two days before Christmas,
and we are so thrilled and honored to be joined
this evening. Excuse me with Michelle Dlon from Books to Prisoners,
and we're talking about the power of reading behind bars,
why a book can mean so much, it can mean
anything and everything, and especially during the holidays, we wanted

(08:57):
to sort of just raise awareness about this and if
you do have any thoughts, we want to hear from you,
so leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app Michelle. Earlier,
you mentioned how could anyone question or have a question
about how on its face how great this program is.

(09:18):
And obviously you are here in a room with super fans,
which I hope you are feeling in your.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Heart, but there are critics.

Speaker 5 (09:27):
I would have to imagine who might question programs like this,
and how might you respond to people who say, oh,
people are incarcerated and resources shouldn't be taken away from,
say a preschool or something like that.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Do you ever hear that, Yeah, unfortunately, I do hear
that sometimes. I feel like the sentiments have been changing.
I've noticed a change from when I started in twenty
twelve until now in twenty twenty five, as people learn
more about the system of policing and incarceration in the
United States. I think that the sentiments about what justice

(10:07):
means is starting to transform. And so when people say
that to me, you know, why do people who are incarcerated,
Why should they get books? Why should they have these resources?
I like to talk about the scarcity mindset, and the
scarcity mindset is something that I think, unfortunately a lot

(10:29):
of us are influenced by. It means that we believe
that there is a set amount of resources out there
and we essentially need to triage and find out who
the most deserving. And I put that in very heavy
air quotes. People are who should receive those resources and
the rest of the people don't deserve again heavy air

(10:50):
quotes anything, and what often happens is that you pit
groups of people against each other. It becomes but what
about the veterans? What about the homeless people? And unfortunately,
people who are incarcerated often end up being at the
bottom of that hierarchy. They're a very easy group to

(11:11):
revile and to talk about their life experiences in terms
of they deserve only bad things to happen to them.
But at books to prisoners Seattle and other groups like ours,
that's not the framework and the mentality that we operate from.
We want to see the humanity in everybody, because a

(11:34):
person who's in prison, that's still a person, that's still
a part of our community, that's still one of our neighbors.
As much as the system tries to divide us and
say that those people over there, those are them, we're us.
We need to focus on us and we need to
not focus on them or actively despise them and get

(12:00):
behind a statement like that. I think that people who
are incarcerated deserve everything that we deserve in terms of
the types of resources like books that we can provide
to them. A book is such a simple gesture to
say hey, I see you you are not forgotten, and

(12:21):
you still deserve to be treated like a human being who,
for the most part, also might rejoin us on the
outside at a future point in time.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
I guess that's the real piece of it, right Like,
at some point the idea is people reacclimate into society,
right body, I see you popping up right now. I
know this is so close to your heart. Sometimes we
get asked this too, and I know it's a hard
question to answer on its nose, but people will say,
what about the homeless shelter? You know, what about the nursery,

(12:54):
what about the veterans? They need books also when they
haven't committed a crime. And it's such a complicated it's
a complicated question.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
And I think you just you know.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Answered that so well, how do you reacclimate into a
world when you have no access to it?

Speaker 6 (13:08):
And I you know, and yeah, I've often said, you know,
we live in a civilized society, and this is how we,
as a civilized society, have decided to punish people for
bad behavior. It is up to us as a village,
you know, one might say, or as a society really
to take care of these people and rehabilitate them, right
because I think that should be the goal of prison

(13:31):
is rehabilitation, and you can't just throw somebody in a
cement cell and expect them to be completely fine when
they get released.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
We have to take care of these people, right, that's
the thing.

Speaker 6 (13:42):
We And then when they get out and they're you know,
they have no talent, they have no knowledge, they have
no understanding of what's been happening in the world. You know,
they're shell shocked, you know, and we have to take
care of them, if we if we truly value what
we have developed as a pun system, you know, we
have to be providing and taking care of these people

(14:04):
while they're under our care. And I think nourishment of
the mind is just as important as it is of
the body and soul, truly.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
And without that, yeah, and without it, honestly, you're just
destined to repeat the same.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Crimes, right, right, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
The goal is to prevent a crime. And again, I
know this is a very layered thing. I think we're
talking about. Everyone should have access to books, right, whether
you are a veteran. It's a hard thing. Right, you
talk to somebody who's just had their daughter murdered, they
may feel, you know, we're are our priorities, and I
think it's a really clear distinction. If someone's meant to

(14:42):
re access the world, you know, rehabilitation is the only
way to a healthy ending. Otherwise we're just guaranteeing a
repeat of what got them there in the first place.

Speaker 5 (14:53):
That's exactly right, Stephanie, and listen, We're going to continue
this discussion much more after the break, so please stick
with us, Listen. Books may be a gift, but not
all prisoners, not all prisons make it easy to get them.
And so after the break, Michelle is going to walk
us through some of the obstacles, some of the censorship
and some of the really surprising rules that can keep

(15:15):
reading materials out of.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
The hands of inmates. Keep it here. True Crime Tonight,
we are talking true crime all the time. Welcome back
to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here just two
days before Christmas with Body Move In and Courtney Armstrong
my Holiday Gems, and listen, We're talking about a very
heavy topic, but a really important one because I know,
leading up to the holidays, we want to be actionable,
we want to make the world better, and Michelle Dylan

(15:59):
is doing just that. She is the vice president in
the brains behind Books to Prisoners, And since it's the
holiday season, we've been talking a lot about how meaningful
one single book can be for someone behind bars.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
I mean, just think about that, you're.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Behind bars, you're paying for whatever air quotes sin you've committed,
or whatever crime I should say you've committed, and it's
the holidays, and you're feeling like the walls are probably
so closing in, and one book could mean the difference
between how I feel today and how I know I

(16:35):
can feel once I'm out of here. And what we're
learning through Michelle's work is that it is not that
easy to access a book.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
A simple book.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Can really be the biggest mind opener anywhere. So Michelle,
thank you. We're so happy again that you're here. And again,
if anybody wants to jump in and join the combo,
leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
So, Michelle, where should we go next? Court? Do you
want to give us a little more background?

Speaker 5 (17:01):
Yeah, I'd love to crow about your organization just a
little bit more, Michelle. So, even with obstacles, Books to
Prisoner it's a Seattle based nonprofit. It promotes literacy, self empowerment,
and compassion by sending free books to incarcerated people and
it's nationwide and Books to Prisoners mails out tens of

(17:22):
thousands of books every year and they are tailored. They
are tailored to personal requests, which I think is so beautiful.
And their goal is to break cycles of recidivism, encourage education,
and promote human connection. And these things help every single
person who live in our world. Michelle, what are some

(17:46):
of the obstacles to that prisoners may face when trying
to get access to books?

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Oh? Where to start with this one? So, the biggest
issue that happen inside of prisons is that obviously it's
this warehouse where people are put and anything that comes
into the prison is going to be put through this
system of guard control and policies before it ever reaches

(18:20):
the person who it's intended to reach. So with books,
that means there's really only a few ways to get
a book inside of a prison. There's going to be
the mailroom if you mail in a book, and then
there's going to be a library, but neither of those
are going to be the same sort of situation. Between prisons.

(18:43):
There's no standard for the mail rooms, and there's no
standard for the library. What I mean by that is,
let's start with libraries. So libraries are often the last
budget item basically to be funded by a Department of correction,
not necessarily a priority unless there is special funding that's

(19:04):
allocated to it. So we have gotten reports of prison
libraries that have been closed for six months. People write
to us and talk about how, for example, there was
one in Texas where the roof flooded in the area
where the library was. So what did they do. They
just shut it down and they hadn't had access to

(19:26):
it all year, Or they don't have a trained librarian
on staff, and so they aren't able to keep access
to the library. And that means that people are more
or less cut off from having books. Because what you
have to really internalize is that life inside of prisons

(19:48):
is all about control. So you on the outside, I think,
are used to thinking about information as a more fluid
kind of object. If you have a question, you can
go onto Google and ask it. You can pop down
to your library. You know, at all hours of the day,

(20:10):
you can go to your friends and borrow a book
from their bookshelf. You can't do any of that inside
of a prison. Any of the information that you get
is going to be channeled through either the library setting,
which again is going to vary widely from facility to facility,
or is going to come in through the mailroom. And
this is where the real issues start to happen because

(20:32):
the mailroom is a place where there are a lot
of capricious policies that are implemented, that are not always
reviewed to see if they are going to serve the
prison population, and are often motivated by ulterior motives. So

(20:53):
we've been having this problem recently where there are new
policies bringing up at state Department of Corrections and at
the federal level that say that there can no longer
be used books sent in, only new books, So that
essentially prevents work from organizations like ours, And there's an

(21:17):
issue beyond that because think about the cost of a
new book twenty five dollars, thirty dollars. It's talking very expensive,
and you're talking about a group of people whose wages
are often pennies per hour work. So if you're going
to make a new policy that's access used books, truly,

(21:38):
think about what that means for a person who might
be earning one dollar a day and what that does
for their access to information? Why?

Speaker 6 (21:46):
Why did they have to be Why are used books
being banned?

Speaker 4 (21:50):
So the systems have been talking a lot recently about
drug contraband coming into prisons and they have opted to
scapegoat books and groups like ours that send in used books,

(22:10):
and they have implemented in quite a few locations these
drug scanning machines that we have found are not necessarily
the most accurate. In twenty twenty four, the New York
City Department of Investigation actually looked into a few of

(22:31):
these drug scanning devices and found that they have a
false positive rate of up to ninety one percent.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (22:40):
Basically, what these systems are saying is there are people
out there who are allegedly dunking the books in a
liquid drug and then trying to mail them into people
who are incarcerated. But what the reports are finding is
that a lot of these allegations are actually not holding

(23:03):
up under investigation. But unfortunately, groups like ours become collateral
where this fear of contraband entering in through the mailroom
becomes a new policy, where suddenly no used books can
be provided, and that again, in a system where people
don't have consistent, easy access to our programs, that means

(23:27):
a sudden cessation of access to books altogether, or at
least a dramatic reduction of them.

Speaker 6 (23:35):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Body Moven and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker. We are joined
this wonderful holiday season by Michelle Dlon and she's helping
us understand why something as simple as a book can
be so hard to get in a prison and how
meaningful it is for the people who live there. If

(23:56):
you have thoughts and we want to hear from you,
please or leave us a talkback on iHeartRadio app Michelle,
how common is context based censorship? Like certain topics or
authors or even genres, are those kinds of things being
censored and blocked?

Speaker 4 (24:13):
Absolutely, So we're talking about content based censorship, which is
a category that was defined by pen America in a
wonderful report that they put out in twenty nineteen. So basically,
there's two types of bands inside of prisons. There's the
bands that occur on the center of the books, so

(24:33):
the ones that affect used books. But then there's also
the content based censorship, meaning censorship that occurs because of
what is actually inside of the book. And it's one
of the biggest hurdles that groups like ours face because
there's no lists for materials that are approved or disapproved.

(24:57):
For the most part, it's completely a state by state decision,
and oftentimes a mailroom by mailroom decision about what materials
they're going to allow in for people to read and
what materials they will not.

Speaker 5 (25:12):
And Michelle, when you break it down that way, who
is making these decisions because even earlier you mentioned that
many prisons don't have librarians who are staffed, So in
that instance, who's making this decision? Is it arbitrary?

Speaker 4 (25:30):
It's a very arbitrary. Unfortunately, it usually comes down to
the one person who's working in the mailroom that day,
because again there's no regulations on these. So if there's
a guard in the mailroom and they decide that they
don't want to let a Spanish language dictionary in, for example,
which has happened. We've had rejections on things like foreign

(25:54):
language learning materials because the prison will say that it's
written in code, all right, So it could be that
it's just this one guy in the mailroom who either
has an ideological issue with the material that we're sending
in or might even have a beef with the person

(26:14):
who's on that mailing label and decides to get at
them by prohibiting access to this book. They can make
a unilateral decision to reject this book. And there's no
review committees in most states. There are in some like
we're very grateful that Washington and Colorado have review committees

(26:37):
that are set up by a minimum of three people,
one of whom must be a librarian to review any
attempted book rejections and make sure that they're not being
done for the wrong reasons, and to overturn book rejections
when appropriate. But even if you have a committee like that,

(26:58):
you don't even necessarily keep track of the books that
are written in other systems, which has been a big
hurdle for us. So we don't know what is prohibited
at any prison or in any state. So we're essentially
sending books out into the void, crossing our fingers, hoping

(27:18):
that they get in, hoping that whatever system we're sending
it into or whatever prison that we're sending it into
is going to be lenient that day, And in a
lot of these systems, they aren't even required to send
back a notice of rejection to us, So sometimes we
send out a book and we don't even know if
it's made it to the recipient or not, which is

(27:39):
always a stressful scenario. Because we're a very relatively low
income nonprofit. Right we're mostly donation based. Every package of
books that we send out costs US about five dollars,
and we send out about twelve thousand packages of books
every year, so if we have a book rejection, we're

(28:02):
talking about money that has been spent that we could
have used for another one of our incarcerated patrons. Where
every prison is different, so the issue is that within
different prisons, there's no standardization for how the systems are
tracking which books are being rejected. There's no standard system

(28:27):
for how they would have to notify us if a
book is rejected, and there's no standard system for any
review committee to make sure that these books are not
being rejected because again, a guard is just decided on
a whim that he doesn't like the sort of things
that are being sent in to be read by people
inside of the prison. And when I talk about content

(28:49):
based censorship, I mean the things that are censored are wild.
Our groups have gotten rejections of things that contain, for example,
maps of the Moon, with the rationale being that it
could facilitate an escape attempt. Same thing for Game of Thrones,

(29:11):
because there's a map of wester Ros in there, and
one of our groups has had a rejection notice because
that map of wester Ros could facilitate an escape attempt.
As I mentioned earlier, we have a lot of books
that are written in foreign languages. We have Sudoku books
and crossword puzzle books, and those often get flagged as

(29:31):
containing code. Oh, We've had encyclopedias of dog breeds rejected.
We've had art history books rejected because of nudity. Once
you start digging into this, the things that are rejected
are absolutely wild, and unfortunately they're often based on things

(29:52):
like what the prison considers to be quote unquote racially
based inflammat toy material, which in practice oftentimes means the
banning of books like the autobiography of Malcolm X and
other black history books.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Michelle, where should we go next with this? You've received
so many countless letters. Can you share what really captures
your heart or is something that hasn't had a specific
impact on you.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, this is I'm thinking back to all of the
letters that I've read during my thirteen years of work
with this organization, and one of the ones that continues
to stick with me, even though I probably read it
ten years ago now is there was a person who

(30:43):
wrote into us and was asking for an American Sign
language dictionary. And the reason that he wanted this dictionary
is that he said that he had been incarcerated for
about seven eight years by that point, and he had
a son and his you know, the mother of his

(31:04):
child had written to him and said that his son
was starting to lose his hearing and when he was
going to be released in a few years, he wanted
to be sure that he had the skills to be
able to communicate with his son. Again, it just reminds
you that these are people. They have lives, they have families,

(31:24):
they have hopes, they have dreams. So I think a
lot about letters like that that we receive, either for
the materials or to say thank you for what they've received,
to talk about how these books have impacted them. You
know people write in Sometimes they write us poems, sometimes

(31:45):
they send us drawings, sometimes they send us little crafts
that they do. So I've got one of these letters
pulled up and hold on, here we go. It's just
addressed dear volunteers. Thank you for the books. I appreciate
the time and effort spent on selecting and packing these selections,

(32:08):
as well as the generosity of those that donate to
make these items free. Thank you for the skift. It
made my week, at the very minimum, made me feel
like a valued human being after many experiences intended to
me to make me feel less than. And inside of
this letter there were these two just adorable little oregon

(32:32):
me frogs oh that he had folded and taken the
time to enclose to send us as the symbol of thank.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
You for everything that he had received. That's so special.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, we when we get things like that, we actually
love to post them around our library space, all the drawings,
all the little arts and crafts.

Speaker 6 (32:55):
How has being involved in this program shaped your understand
of the criminal justice system?

Speaker 4 (33:03):
It has made me more stridently assured that the way
that we are doing things is wrong. Sure, Yeah, the
things that we are doing to the people, the ways
that we are again just locking them away, throwing away

(33:26):
the key, calling that justice. I don't think that's justice.
I don't think that's serving anybody. And again I'm glad
that the perspectives on this seem to be changing as
people get more awareness about the deprivations that are built

(33:47):
into the system, the exploitations that are built into the system.
And when I say that from the perspective of a
program like Books to Prisoners, I think about the financial
burdens that are put on to people, because we've gotten
rejection letters at Books to Prisoners where we try to
send in blank notebooks and the prison has responded to

(34:08):
us to say, no, we're not going to allow in
these blank notebooks because these notebooks are available for purchase
at commissary. Oh and that is just you know, one
small drop, and this vast pool of things that are
done to these people, like the financial exploitation is a

(34:30):
thing that I could definitely talk for hours about and
that just seeing this all building up over the years
that I've worked with it frustrates me, infuriates me, and
wants to make me spread the words so that we
can all work together to build a better system.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
If in fact, rehimbilitation, if rehimbilitation is the key to
this right, which I think we could all agree, is
it is a complicated thing. So again, sliding scale of
crimes and sliding scale of what is fair. There is
no question that what is happening behind bars is based

(35:10):
on so many things. Do you have money for a lawyer?
Are you of the perfect color or a gender or race?

Speaker 4 (35:18):
Like?

Speaker 3 (35:18):
What is the thing that makes it so disproportionate?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
And it's really hard for so many to survive and
hopefully start anew And what do you say to critics
that might say, if you've taken a life, if you've
murdered somebody.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
You don't get a blank notebook? Is that? Is that
an answerable question?

Speaker 2 (35:41):
I know that's an esoteric one and probably impossible, but
it's something that we gnaw on all day. We scratch
at this itch literally all day in our own jobs.
And it's a question I asked myself regularly because listen,
I believe that the system really needs improvement.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
Is it completely broken? Of course not.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Justice will prevail and goodness will prevail, but it is
certainly not rehabilitating to the level that I think help
society as a whole right, So how can we help?

Speaker 4 (36:14):
There are three main ways that we ask for support
in doing this work. We would love it if you
have a local books prisoners group and you want to
go in being inspired by what you've heard here today,
to volunteer to read some of these letters for yourself,
to help select books and send them out. Volunteering is

(36:35):
one of our number one asks because again, we get thousands,
tens of thousands of letters from people every year and
it probably takes us from start to finish a solid
half hour of work to get the package of books
back out the door. So we're talking about at least
six thousand hours of volunteer driven work. And that's just

(36:58):
for our group, and we're one of three dozen groups
scattered around the country who all receive letters, who all
need help to put the book donations on the shelves,
to read through the letters and get books to send
back to people, to go out into your communities and
do book drives to help us get more books to

(37:19):
help fulfill requests in the future. We also really need
just money. You know, each of these packages costs five
dollars between the wrapping materials and the shipping costs, and
when you're talking again at a scale of thousands of books,
any money that we can have that will help us
to serve more people or to send you know, more

(37:41):
books per package, because right now we have to think
about how many books we can realistically put into each package,
so that extra few dollars could mean the difference between
two books and three books.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
That's great, that is great.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
How many you said, I there's if there's a local center,
how many.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
Do you know?

Speaker 5 (38:06):
How many? How many places around the country, you.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
Guys are There are two places that keep track of this,
because as I said, we're kind of always in flux.
With the groups being volunteer driven, it means that sometimes
people get over capacity and they have to go gray
for a little while. But there are two organizations who
are tracking this. One of them is Prison Book Program

(38:30):
operating out of Quincy, Massachusetts, and they have a map
up on their website that shows the locations of current
book programs. And the other one is the San Francisco
Public Library, who has an Expanding Access to Information for
Incarcerated People initiative that's running right now where they're actually
trying to train the next generation of people who are

(38:54):
going to be working in programs inside of prisons or
who are coordinating with, for example, public libraries to help
people who are re entering get access to the services
that they need. And so they also have a map
on their website that tracks the organizations who are currently
sharing this mission.

Speaker 6 (39:15):
This is Your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy Moved
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker. We're
joined by Michelle Dylan from Books to Prisoners, and we're
talking about the impact books can have on people who
may feel alone in prison, especially during the holidays. Right
like around the holidays, people often, you know, talk about
connection and belonging. What does a book mean to someone

(39:38):
incarcerated this time of year.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
Michelle, you have to understand that people who are incarcerated
don't get a lot of joy in their life necessarily.
They try to foster it inside of prison walls. You know,
there's a lot of joy that can happen when people
in prisons come together and make it. But they are

(40:00):
getting a lot of support from the outside necessarily, especially
if they don't have loved ones on the outside who
are routinely in contact with them. So we are able
to be this lifeline for people who would otherwise be
completely cut off. People who have been incarcerated for thirty years,

(40:22):
for example, have people who write to us every year
asking for books. We've maintained these relationships with them for
decades now, and we're so happy that we can be
a part of their lives in this sustained, regular kind

(40:43):
of way and just show up for them. And we
do get thank you letters that say exactly that, but
talk about how grateful they are for the support that
we provided over the years. I mean, one of the
most impactful letters too that I remember was from a
person in Texas who wrote to us saying that he

(41:06):
was scheduled for execution the next month and he was
just sending letters out to all of the people and
the organizations who had been there for him during his time.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Wow, that's it, I mean, that is it's kind of speechless.
I know, that's yeah, but that's.

Speaker 6 (41:30):
He's kind of like a like, I don't know, he's
wrapping it up right, like.

Speaker 5 (41:36):
Oh, that's so powerful and your organization is changing lives
one book in person at a time. Okay, I understand
that you have a little question or quiz for us.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
Oh really, yes, I mean asked this question a lot,
and very few people ever have the correct answer. So
the question is very simple. What do you think the
most common requests made from incarcerated people? Two books to
prisoners might be. And again remember there's no format for

(42:11):
people to write in. They can request anything that they want.
What is the most popular request?

Speaker 3 (42:18):
I'm going to say this is body.

Speaker 6 (42:19):
I'm going to say study materials for diplomas, like ged materials.

Speaker 5 (42:26):
I'm split between the Bible or a dictionary.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Bible. The Bible is a good one, I would say.
I would say, for sure the Bible. We're not going
to go with J. E. G.

Speaker 6 (42:39):
Ed materials like the sources, dictionaries, you know, those kinds
of things.

Speaker 4 (42:44):
Those are all great guesses. But Courtney, you actually got
it right. It's a dictionary.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
See this is why Courtney was meant. Also, yes, why
she meant you know? So five percent and stick.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
Twenty five percent of our requests are for a dictionary,
which I always think really speaks to the level of
deprivation that people are experiencing inside of prison. How many
of us even have a dictionary on our shelves anymore?
I do?

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Oh, all right, I have the one who my father
gave me when I graduated high school.

Speaker 4 (43:24):
Oh, I love it all right, Well, step aside. Most
of us if we have a question, right, if we
need something to find, we'll just go to Google.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Right.

Speaker 4 (43:35):
We have so many other ways to find the information.
People who are in prison do not. So even though
they can ask for anything, what do they ask for?
They ask for a dictionary?

Speaker 2 (43:48):
And by the way, maybe that's something that's access even prior, right,
Like maybe had they had all the answers or the information.
It's such a limiting world sometimes that everybody is brought
into the born into the life that has access or information.
Maybe that would prevent even books can even prevent being
incarcerated in the first place.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
So Michael is you know is in motion? But man,
are you a cycle breaker at your core? Yeah?

Speaker 6 (44:18):
Michelle Dylan from Books to Prisoners thank you for the
incredible work you do and your organization and for joining
us tonight.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
If you would like.

Speaker 6 (44:26):
To learn more or get involved, you can visit the
organization's website at Books two Prisoners dot net. As we
head into the holidays, we are super grateful for the
people and programs that bring connection hope and dignity to
those who need it most.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
This is True Crime Tonight. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we
talk true crime all the time. So listen a lo
one of the cases that we've been covering for the
last couple of months, not only are they intense, but
many of them involve families, and given that we're approaching
the holidays and it's that time of year where family
dynamics are really put to the test, we really wanted
to explore further and really look at toxic relationships and

(45:17):
toxic dynamics and why we subject ourselves to them or
let them continue slightly endlessly. So my dear friend Christine
from The Unlocked Mind has come because she's really the
expert at this and also has been teaching and encouraging
people to challenge collective consciousness, which is a very big deal,
by the way, and she's going to teach us about

(45:39):
that and also our subconscious beliefs around toxic family relationships
and kind of help us explore that, particularly because welcome
to the holidays, everybody, it's hard to escape.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
Christine.

Speaker 7 (45:52):
Yeah, thank you, guys. Hi Courtney, I am so passionate,
as you know, Stephanie, about collective consciousness and trying to
teach people to challenge their automatic thinking. And we don't
do that enough. So we just go into this autopilot
and we're believing something and we never go.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
Why do I believe that? Or do I believe it?

Speaker 7 (46:13):
One of the things I always ask people is to
ask themselves the question, if they weren't your family, would
they be your friend?

Speaker 3 (46:20):
I mean, process that for a minute, right.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
I was going to say, that's why sometimes we have
friends that are our chosen family in many ways.

Speaker 7 (46:29):
Exactly, but we don't do that with our family. We
just go, well, there are our family. We have a
ton of beliefs around it. We all hear blood is
thicker than water or I actually wrote down a whole
list of them that I'm sure you guys can recite.
You only get one family. That's just how they are.
You'll regret it if you walk away if I say

(46:51):
or no, watch what happens. That's just the way they are.
Or your brain is like, uh huh, what did you
feel that how you engaged with me? Or that's how
they choose to show up. There's a nice or you
only get one family, or I only get one nervous
system that they did their best, or I'm allowed to

(47:14):
respond to the impact not their intention, and I have
the whole list going.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
It's so true because we do cover so many cases
that are so heavy right and specifically heavy family dynamics
that we see the most extreme versions of. You have
to wonder, at some point things had gone a little
sideways yesteryear, yet nobody put up a real boundary, and suddenly,
fast forward, the dynamic becomes even deeper and harder.

Speaker 7 (47:40):
Well, I think people put up a boundary. They just
circumb to their subconscious which was like, well, it's our
child one more chance, or it's our mother one more chance.
And we can talk about addiction and mental health and
compassion doesn't mean access. I can have compassion, but that
doesn't mean you.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Have access to me.

Speaker 7 (48:00):
And right now, we live in this amazing time where
we have amazing drugs therapy clarity, where if you want help,
you will get help or somebody will find it and
make it available to you. So when people tell me, oh,
well they have an addiction or it's mental health, I
completely understand that and have compassion for that. However, If

(48:21):
that person chooses to use their resources and get the help,
then I can make a choice to keep you in
my life. If not, then it's my choice to create distance,
which also creates safety. These elevated cases don't just happen
because it's the first interaction, right right, I mean, you

(48:42):
guys are in it every day. This happens because this
has been going on and on and on, and there
is no clear line between what I'll accept. And maybe
you don't talk to a person for ten years, well
that's much better than making someone angry for ten years,
because I just believe in putting positive out into the world.
So if you are around a person and you don't

(49:03):
feel like you can be the best version of yourself,
that's telling you something.

Speaker 5 (49:07):
If you find yourself not being the best version of yourself,
is that when kind of it's time to check in
and say, okay, is it time for me to take
a pause from this person? Or basically, how do people
know when to look at what you're saying?

Speaker 7 (49:22):
Well, it's when someone creates stress, negativity, emotional harm, drain
your energy, disrespects the boundaries that you've set, and even
makes you feel like you're never good enough. That's my outline.
And the relationship leaves you feeling worse, not better, and
it's heavy, and you you think about the phone call
coming you see you see the name on your phone

(49:44):
and you're like.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Oh, that's a red flag. Red flag.

Speaker 7 (49:48):
It's so so paying attention to those signals. We aren't
going to change other people. This is very important, So
really take this in because we put so much effort
into trying to change people. You're not going to change anyone.
They get to be, however, they are zero judgment. And
by the way, if everyone could just do this, stop

(50:10):
judging people for how they're being and just honor who
they are and say that just doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
For me, right, I love that This is true crime.

Speaker 5 (50:20):
Tonight we're on iHeartRadio Courtney Armstrong and here as always
with Stephanie Leidecker, and we're so excited to be talking
with transformational expert Christine Colopy.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
And we're talking about navigating.

Speaker 5 (50:33):
Sort of our feelings and dealing with all of the
true crime that we do collectively, and also how to
put that into practice during the holidays. So I would
love to hear more about everything that you were saying.
That list that you read out Christine of Boundaries. Boy,
it was real black and white when you hear it,

(50:53):
but it all hit a bunch of nerves of Oh
that person who I feel less than every time we speak,
just acknowledging that it is okay to not subject yourself
because perhaps you share the last name, we.

Speaker 7 (51:06):
Share genetics and history. That doesn't give you access to
who I am now. Like, think about your friend in
third grade. Just because you were in third grade with
them doesn't mean they get to be your friend now.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Sometimes relationships are just for a season or for a reason.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
I've heard that saying so many times. But how many
of us at some point have been in the car
driving to something, whether it's a work event or a
family situation, and it's hard. You already have a little
bit of dread. Or you get in the car after
whatever it is, and you do you feel drained, that
you're exhausted, You feel like you weren't your best self.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Why did I say that? Oh I didn't mean that.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Or you just don't land correctly with this person because
you don't feel comfortable, you don't feel at ease, you
don't feel at peace. You know, allowing ourselves the ability
to say this doesn't work for me anymore. Regardless of
the history or regardless of this is what.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
We do every year.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
I know that sounds huge. I know, I'm so grateful
that this is not the family dynamic that I'm driving into.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
But at the same time, it's everywhere.

Speaker 7 (52:05):
It really plays with your mind because on a subconscious level,
you get that second voice, right, your secondary voice. That's it,
and it's your dad, it's your mom, it's your son,
and all of that. So if they weren't your family,
would they be your friend's question? It bypasses guilt, it
bypasses history, and it bypasses the story that we've been
handed again.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
We're going to family events, people are blending families for
the first time. You know, there's co parenting happening. And somehow,
even those things that could be hard during any time
of year, it seems to get so exacerbated at the holidays.
You know, it's sometimes less about the eggnog and more
about just keeping your sanity.

Speaker 7 (52:46):
I don't know about you, but birthdays are hard for
a lot of people. Yeah, And I always tell people
birthdays are hard because they only come once a year,
so we don't have a lot of opportunities to work
on that stuff other than that, once a year we
get that trigger. So it can take five ten years
to heal that birthday thing because you only have to
deal with it once a year. So it's the same

(53:06):
thing with a Christmas like we're not thrown into family
obligations or guilted or whatever it is. And then that's
where it's my busy season. It's always my busy but
it's really a busy season because I always tell people
look for volume. The first thing I say when I
get on a call is where's the volume? And that
means look for the things that are really loud to you,

(53:28):
the things that are getting your attention. So you do
want to turn your awareness up. I mean it is
partly being aware and being an observer. Not judging. Judgment
and observing are two different things. I'm just going to
stand back and observe how I feel, Observe what's happening,
Observe how people are talking to me or not talking
to me, care or not care that I'm here. There's
nothing that's personal. You're just observing so you can heal.

(53:51):
This is about collective consciousness changing, about people having VIP
tickets to your life just because they gave birth to you,
or someone having a vip tike your life just because
you gave birth to them. It's okay for you to say, hey, listen,
I want to give you an invitation of my life.
Let me tell you what that party looks like. It's
a party of kindness, celebration, happiness, support.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
If you want to come.

Speaker 7 (54:14):
To my party, you are invited. However, if that's a
party you don't want to come to, it's off you're uninvited.
This is a powerful, powerful question, Guys, what experience did
you have with me that makes you feel that way?
Because most of the time, eight out of ten times,
if you ask someone anyone that question, they realize they're like, oh,

(54:37):
no experience, I just feel this way, so they correct
they self correct. Now, if there are two other percent
of the time you did something great, let's talk about it.
What experience did you have? Not what did I do?
But what experience did you have? Totally two different things.
Because if I didn't mean to step on your foot,
but I stepped on your foot, I still stepped on
your foot, it doesn't dismiss it because I didn't mean to. Right,

(55:00):
So again, I'm going to repeat that question because I
think it's so important. What experience did you have with
me that makes you feel that way? Pretty simple?

Speaker 3 (55:10):
I love that so much.

Speaker 5 (55:11):
I'm glad you said it twice because I do want
to hold on to that, and honestly, I want to
turn that mirror onto myself probably about four different times of.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
A day, because you're saying.

Speaker 5 (55:21):
That makes me think of all the times that I
walk into name a situation in life with you know,
expectations that are mine. So I think that's really interesting
both ways.

Speaker 7 (55:33):
And it creates a safe space in the other person's
subconscious mind. You aren't speaking to that person, you're speaking
to all of that person's experiences.

Speaker 5 (55:42):
Do we want to say anything more about this important
subject of the collective consciousness?

Speaker 7 (55:50):
I want to say one more thing because I think
it's really important to know that long before we're conscious
enough to actually question anything, we're having experiences teach us
subconsciously what is true?

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Think about that.

Speaker 7 (56:06):
When I'm three, I'm not going, hey, I wonder what
the truth is about this? Right, We're being fed experiences
that other people are having as truth. So that's why
our subconscious is like, let's stay safe in the world
and put this data in here so that we can
stay safe. The subconscious job is to keep us safe.
Now how it keeps us safe isn't so great, because

(56:26):
it keeps us safe based on our data that we
were given and so we together with that end collective consciousness.
Like let's just start questioning things.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
It's also fun just knowing that we're allowed to take
stock and kind of look within a little bit, you know,
the perfect example, and then I'll zip it. But I
think I learned this from you. Christine is like, yeah,
wh when you look at your phone, whether this is
at home or at work or wherever, you know, we're
all attached to our phones. You know when that phone
rings or you get the text, and yeah, you get
that thing in your heart of like, well, that is

(56:57):
such a tell. And like starting to be aware of
those who a trigger you or where you feel some
low key dread and perhaps it's unnecessary dread that you're
allowing into your life and being able to like slowly
sift through and make sure that the people that are
in constant access to you or the people that have
constant access to you. Do you imagine how great the

(57:20):
world is if the people in your immediate circle built
you up, It made you feel strong and capable in
the world.

Speaker 7 (57:27):
Well, and I think, listen to your body. Do I
contract or expand? So if I say I have to
go to work, it just is heavy. If I say
I'm choosing to go to work, I'm expanding because your
subconscious mind is going, why are you choosing that? Because
I like a house and a car and food and
all the things, and it's like, yeah, go to work.
It's so different. So, yes, listen to your body. Is
it contracting or is it expanding? It's going to kind

(57:49):
of give you the cues. And I think Stephanie, you
said something like are the people around you making you
feel good? It really is your job to put yourself
around people that make you feel good. So again, we're
not changing anyone. It's not our mission. We're observing the
way we feel. And we're going wait, because love and
hate don't live together, faith and fear don't live together.

(58:11):
So I'm gonna have to choose a friend group, right, Like,
what friend group do I feel expansive in? And how
do I just stay in that friend group? But without
judgment or shame or blame. Let people be who they are,
and then choose to put yourself where you feel the
best version of yourself and you feel like you can
grow and well, all of a sudden, I'm growing and
thriving because I separated myself from that friend.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Group also the family member or friend that always makes
you whar your past right, Like, here's that like dirty
old jacket that we're going to make you wear at
dinner because that's our like dynamic who hits on that
like fresh energy?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Fresh energy?

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Well, I can't believe we're aut a time physically possible,
you know. Wishing you such an incredible holiday obviously, and
you too.

Speaker 7 (58:56):
I was so excited that you guys invited me on
this show because if I could give some kind of
gift to people, it would be giving the gift of
just creating your future. It really is up to you.
If you're not changing it, you're choosing it.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
Remember that, if you're not changing it, you're choosing it.
I love that.

Speaker 5 (59:13):
Okay, twenty twenty six, We're booking the next time we speak,
because I'm going to need to really marinate on that.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
Christine to thank you so much.

Speaker 7 (59:22):
Thank you so much for having me and just allowing
me to share this with people before we end, I
want to be very clear that this is only part
one of this conversation. Here's my suggestion this year, get
out of autopilot collective consciousness when you're going into the
holidays and go in as an observer. Listen to the
volume and the mind chatter. Notice what keeps coming up,

(59:45):
because that's what wants to heal. I'm so excited to
come back to this after the holidays.

Speaker 5 (59:50):
For anyone who wants to find Christine Coloby, our transformational
expert extraordinaire and creator of the Unlocked Mind. Christine is
at the Unlockedmind dot com and listen. Stick around because
coming up you're going to meet some people behind True
Crime Tonight and hear some fascinating stories about how they

(01:00:10):
found their way into true crime and became part of
this team. Stay with us true Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time, and listen. As twenty twenty five
finally winds down, we wanted to take a quick moment
to reflect and give some gratitude and especially highlight the
team who works so hard to bring this show to
you every single night. This is a tight crew, and

(01:00:46):
we work together in sync. We're small but mighty, and
I have.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
The benefit of working with each of you every single.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Day, and I think it's really helpful for anyone listening
to have just a little bit more access to each
of you individually. So where should we begin, Gids, Let's
start with Gabe. Gabe basically runs so many things at
KT Studios and also helped launch this show.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
He also helped pitch this project.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
His project was in the works for many, many years,
so long time coming.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
And Gabe, who keeps.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
The trains on the tracks behind the scenes in every category.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
What do you think you're bah, Gab game.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Cue the smoke machine, Gabe, you was there something about
twenty twenty five specifically that was either a thorn or
something that was extraordinary.

Speaker 8 (01:01:43):
Shout out to Itza, my sister. A big goal of
hers was to move out of our family home and
this year we finally made it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Work, so as awesome. That was a big, big.

Speaker 8 (01:01:55):
Win for us. And you know, it only took two
and a half years in the making, but that was
big accomplishment on our end. And you know, it's kind
of like a you can say the Three Musketeers, so
we're a great trio. So that was a big, big thing, So.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
A huge trio.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
And I might add we say this about Gabe all
the time Courtney and I met him. We hired him
pretty instantly, even though there were many many applicants, but
we didn't know Gabe until his first day.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
And man, we say this all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
First of all, Gabe knows all and boy was he
raised great, so your parents should be so proud. And
what he's also not saying is that he moved the
sister to Hollywood and they all lived together.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
We met Gabe and it was love at first sight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Courtney runs a very tight ship, and she was like
heading up all of the application process, and she interviewed
so so many. I came in for round two, and
one thing I can say is when court and I
agree on the person, it's always right yes, and.

Speaker 8 (01:02:59):
I'm forever in their debt.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
So and then we have Ava Kaplin, Ava Kaplin.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
I will say, was also, you know, studying abroad and
living abroad and about to go get her masters and
kind of just wanted to feel it out for the
summer and see if KT or just generally speaking, true
crime was in your wheelhouse.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
And then she kicked the door down, keeps us all
in line all day. Hi guys, Oh my god.

Speaker 9 (01:03:32):
I love seeing everyone's face. I'm so happy to be here.
This show completely.

Speaker 4 (01:03:38):
Changed my life.

Speaker 9 (01:03:38):
I was planning on moving to London and getting a
master's degree in journalism, and now I live in Brooklinton
and work on this show. So it's kind of awesome.
But I wouldn't want it any other way. And yeah,
twenty twenty five is then a crazy year. I spent
the first half living in France and now here I am.
I still have my I'm wearing my black turtleneck as

(01:03:58):
like an homage to my I passed.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Too, because we should be in Paris right now. I
know we deserve it.

Speaker 9 (01:04:08):
I feel like, I don't know, twenty twenty five is
in an awesome year. I feel like I found such
a home, such a vision for my future that I
didn't have even like six months ago. I had no
idea what I was going to do with my life.
I didn't think I was going to be living in America.
So this is kind of awesome and something just like
about the show I was just thinking about, like in

(01:04:29):
terms of every day when I'm researching these cases and
like what am I learning and what am I getting
out of it? And I have realized that, like my
favorite part of True crime is I love like the
legal stuff. Like my favorite stuff that we do is
the trial watches and like learning about just how the
legal system operates. I honestly feel like I'm in law

(01:04:50):
school and like I could take the ELSA in the
bar tomorrow and pass. At this point, probably could like today,
like just a couple like thirty minutes ago, I was
reading like California Criminal Penal Codes, tried to like suck
some stuff out. So it's just been really fun to
kind of learn that I have this interest that I

(01:05:10):
didn't even know I had before. I know, I'm like,
maybe I should go to law school.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
That's next for all of us. I'm gonna go. We
can be roommates.

Speaker 9 (01:05:19):
Oh my god, that'd be so fun, Like we can
be freshmen, live on the dorms, a reality show in
that for sure, be party pants, as Stephanie would say.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
That's my girl.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
And just so the structure everyone knows because we make
the show at night, there's you know, a daytime team
and Ava and then Whitney Galloway in Taha house and
then Taha stays with us for the night, so we
have sort of all hands on deck for every coast
to make sure that we're getting the most current and
up to date news. And you guys do such a

(01:05:51):
great job. It's a real line daily, so hats off.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Thanks.

Speaker 10 (01:05:56):
Guys love it and Eva does so much, so you
are such a rock star. She puts so much together
with all of these stories that every day, every detail,
every day we have our for everyone listening, we have
our meetings where we kind of go over what the
show is going to be that night, and every single
post has a different question that Ava then digs into
and finds more. So she's a rock star. So I

(01:06:18):
appreciate everything you do and she puts up with.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
Me and I email her Amien.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
And to that end, you know, it's really important to
research from all angles. So you know, this is not
a show that has a POV or a certain agenda
by any means, So we want to make sure that
we're always getting the facts right. And to do that
it's not such a simple task.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
You have to sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Read the totality of everything that's out there on all
sides of the conversation, so be able to pull that off.
And Whitney Galloway, who's probably the newest to the team,
but it feels like you ever you know, she joined
and honestly has a compassion level and an understanding of
sort of of what happens in the beehive very you know,

(01:07:02):
uniquely because a she's been in one of our documentaries
and also worked on that documentary and has brought a
whole new layer and is now doing all the research
for the whole country, making sure that we're not just
covering the stories that are hitting the mainstream news media,
but making sure that we're also touching on stories in

(01:07:23):
all parts of the country, especially some of the ones
that don't get as much coverage. So that's also a
real initiative for the new year as well. Whitney tell
us everything.

Speaker 11 (01:07:33):
Oh gosh, I get so nervous when I do these.
This is why I don't speak on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Point you have the best voice.

Speaker 11 (01:07:42):
I mean, I'm just grateful to be here and grateful
for the opportunity.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Not enough.

Speaker 11 (01:07:47):
I always get emotional when I talk to you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
By stop it.

Speaker 11 (01:07:52):
I cry on our phone calls. Maybe it's just my
personality at this point. Yeah, I mean I always do
a high and a low for the end of the year,
so like, what are my high was? Honestly, and I'm
not just saying this because like we're on with you guys,
but like getting this job and having like it opened
up so many opportunities for me to be.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Like a better mom.

Speaker 11 (01:08:11):
I'm able to be there for my kids, and like
my low obviously is my husband being deployed. So I'm
grateful and so many ways to the you guys, and
you guys have really made me feel like I'm part
of a team, and I just I can't think you
guys in the.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
We love you with you Whitneys actually being modest in
terms of the reality of what she's experiencing right now
as a young mom, which is, you know, her incredible
husband Kyle has been deployed and that could be up
for a year, so.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
She's really taken it like such a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
This just happened around Thanksgiving, so it's very very new,
and just watching you from a distance navigate a really
tough situation has been really really inspiring.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
I might hide it.

Speaker 11 (01:08:58):
Well, but I can't. But there's days I'm like, oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Of course, that's totally human and appropriate. Well, here's to
you know, a safe return for your husband and a
healthy return for your husband, and we're sending so much
love his way.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
Thank you.

Speaker 11 (01:09:16):
I appreciate you guys so much. I don't think I
expressed it enough, but I do.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
You're a gem. You're a gem in a dream.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
And then we have Taha House in Taha back a
thousand years I very job in television was working for Taha.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
I was his intern for a hot minute.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
And when this show came to be, Taha was always
in the mind of like the type of producer we
would be looking for, really, like somebody with an A
plus plus personality who lives and breathes the news, who
doesn't necessarily even have to be a true crime officionado,
but somebody who really just watches what's happening in real

(01:09:54):
time and he has the greatest manner as you guys
all know of any body alive. I used to imitate
tahyzac oh shoot. I would do these Taha impressions for
this infamous person that nobody had ever met before. And
just by coincidence, when we finally got the green light
for this show to happen, Taha just happened to reach
out and was like, oh yeah, after decades of not

(01:10:17):
being available, I am if you have something like.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
I'm a candid camera right now, like you're in the vision.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Uh yeah, I have the perfect scenario for you that
was for you.

Speaker 12 (01:10:32):
And not only is he so good, you know, he's
so patient and kind, just like you said stuff, he's
got a great manner, but he's so organized.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
You know.

Speaker 12 (01:10:41):
He kind of is like the rudder of the ship.
He steers us all right in the right direction.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Now you're.

Speaker 12 (01:10:50):
Like, I'm I mean, I've I've worked with a lot
of producers and Tah, you you're incredible.

Speaker 10 (01:10:57):
Well, I have an incredible team to work with. So
you guys are brilliant and you guys, I mean, like
Aba was saying earlier, everyone throws out these great stories.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
So you make the job easy for me.

Speaker 10 (01:11:09):
But going back to what Stephanie said earlier, it was
funny when you first mentioned the job and talked to
me about it, and you're like, I'm going to tell
you honestly, it's going to be a crazy job. It's
going to be wild, but it's going to be fun.
And guess what it is. All of those things like
every day it's crazy wild, but.

Speaker 3 (01:11:26):
It's such a blast.

Speaker 10 (01:11:27):
We end the show and I'm like, this was so
much fun. And to your point, earlier, I was concerned
because I didn't know true crime the way I thought,
My gosh, these hosts know every detail about Brian Coberger
and Undy.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
I don't know them.

Speaker 10 (01:11:41):
But positive thinking Stephanie, she's always the most positive person,
like she can find the good and everything. She said
that's an asset because there are listeners out there who
may not know everything about Ted Bundy or Brian Coburger.
You can be that person that we can springboard and
bounce those ideas off of, so it can been so
such a wonderful fit. And you guys, I mean literally,

(01:12:02):
I know we all say it, but I really truly
mean it. Every night when it ends, I'm like, that
was so much fun. It doesn't really feel like work
when we're doing the show live because we're all having
such a good time. And I'm that's if we're talking
our highs and lows. That has truly been my high
this year that I got to meet all of you
this year, work with you, And I'm going to end

(01:12:23):
on that because I truly love working with you guys.
You guys are so much fun, and I've learned more
about true crime than I ever thought I would, even now.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
You're an expert. Because again, not to get too into
how the sausage is made, but it is helpful to
have somebody who says, what does that mean exactly? Sometimes
really assumptions, you know, or we start talking and get
a little loss in the sauce and details, and somebody
listening for the first time might not all know what
we're talking about. So it's helpful to have somebody to
keep us a little bit on track at the bare minimum.

(01:12:54):
And Taha, just like Whitney, just like Abe, just like Ava,
they are a giggle even though we're talking about difficult things.
These are people People ask me this all the time.
Do you guys really love each other? And I know
that's a loaded question, but I can just speak all
of us. Yes, is the answer, because you know it's
a tight team, and it is. Every day is another

(01:13:16):
set of situations or problems or you know, how often
have we started the show and had to throw away
everything we thought we were going to.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
Do news or whatever?

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
And you keep it so fun and I think everybody
keeps it light despite the dark that we're talking about.

Speaker 10 (01:13:34):
Yeah, look, everybody's getting everyone emotional.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Now help it. I can't choose between Courtney and Body,
who wants to go first.

Speaker 9 (01:13:43):
I just want to say one more thing about Taha.
When I was working from my childhood home this summer,
my mom would always overhear my conversations on the phone
with Taha every morning, and every time we hung up,
she would say to me, is tall have the nicest
personal lives?

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Every time I would be like yes. At one time
she asked me, is he always like that? Or is
he fake? And I was like, no, he's always like that.

Speaker 9 (01:14:09):
And so now it's like our new standard for like
how nice someone is. It's like, are they as nice
as Tahamo? And the answer is always no, Like the
bar has been set.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
The bar has been set fake because he was that
way always. I can say this.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
Is so funny.

Speaker 10 (01:14:25):
Yeah, and my even with I like raise my voice
about something, I feel like, oh that sounded so mean,
and everyone's like all we did was like say like,
can you lower your audio?

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
Like anyway? But pulling up the story.

Speaker 10 (01:14:35):
But all right, it's between Courtney and Body because I'm
dying to hear what they have to say.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
I will be brief, but we'll go around just in
what I believe was the order.

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Of Gabe, just to underline and echo everything that Stephanie
said and your dependability and you're just capacity to be
so responsible and responsive and thorough and get everything done
until it's done, which is a quality that is hugely valued.

(01:15:06):
So you're awesome, beyond awesome, and thank you, thank you. Lately,
it's by the way, I want to give a shout
out to Gabe for late. I would get done with
the show certain times, start some work and Gabe would
finish it. So you're really a super trooper. And then Eva, Yeah,
your tenacity. You jumped in both feet, guns blazing. I

(01:15:29):
freaking loved it and love it now. You are such
like a powerhouse and grab it. It's a really great
way to be. And you do a really hard job thoroughly.
You were out like one day or two days, and
I tried to help do your job and it was
a really tough it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Yeah, I agree, together couldn't really do it exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
It was like, I don't know, thank you. That means
a lot to me.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Listen, stick around after the commercial break. We have much
much more with the whole team. Stay with us True
Crimes Night.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
True crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here just
two days before Christmas with Body Move In and Courtney
Armstrong my holiday gems. We wanted to take a quick
moment to reflect and give some gratitude and especially highlight
the team who works so hard to bring this show

(01:16:39):
to you every single night, and we work together in sync.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
We're small but mighty, It's true.

Speaker 5 (01:16:47):
And then Whitney everything, Oh my gosh, from that first
day when you didn't know who these two wirdos were,
when Stephanie and I came upon you, and you have
just been such a a bright and tender and lovely spot.
And also having the luxury of being able to work
with you and see how your strive for excellence is

(01:17:10):
really admirable and I think gets people really far.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
So you have that in spades and it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
We said when we met Whitney Galloway, we're going to
know her forever.

Speaker 11 (01:17:23):
You know, I actually real quick, I was literally thinking
of me sitting on the swing and you guys pulling
up and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe
I'm meeting these two strangers. And now it's like, this
is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
And just to add some context to that, there was
a documentary that we were working on. We were hoping
that Whitney would participate because she was very close to
the case. And when we do that, you know, you
go to the location and introduce yourself. But like, again,
you have perfect strangers, Courtney and I coming to your
home to you know, talk in person and you know,

(01:17:56):
kind of discuss the project and you know, see if there's.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
A fit, right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
You never want to make anybody feel uncomfortable. This is
before cameras or anything. And I feel like Whitney was
sitting on that beautiful little swing and she's you know,
that hair is so beautiful, and she had her beautiful
little daughter, and I think we just like hung and
talk like humans for for many hours and it was
sort of like, listen, regardless of what happens with the documentary,

(01:18:22):
you can choose yes, you can choose no, but.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
We're going to know you forever.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
And Courtney and I have said that so many times
so just having you here right now seems so serendipitously perfect, make.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Me cry.

Speaker 5 (01:18:37):
And Taha again, I will not echo everything except to
say my imitation is how unfortunate, which Taha will use
to describe he has reacting to. And you are everything
that was said before double and beyond.

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
And body boom, how far we've come.

Speaker 5 (01:19:03):
From, as Stephanie has laid out, you know, the first
meeting in that green room and fan, you know, fangirling
and being nervous to get to see you every night,
and you know, face to face every night.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
It's so cool, and.

Speaker 5 (01:19:15):
You're just your mind is amazing and you're wicked smart,
and you're so insightful, and you're also just jump in
with everything, as Aba saying, just you know, greasing the
tracks and making it happen, and your answer is always yes,
and you're just a really a cool human to know.
And I'm like, oh, thank you to know you and

(01:19:35):
lucky to know you. And then Stepan Idecker, good a grief.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
It's been a long time together.

Speaker 5 (01:19:44):
It's been a long time together, and those that two
weeks start here we are.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
I never could have imagined it.

Speaker 5 (01:19:53):
And this show, as Stephanie mentioned, was a long time coming,
and that's an understatement. It was like pushing Molass up
a sand hill, which Stephanie did with undying enthusiasm, which
is how she attacks and approach, not even approaches life,
attacks life and is there for life. No, and really,

(01:20:18):
over many many years and as you said, in many
many strange rooms and every kind of circumstance, you're so
profoundly yourself and you are so positive and capable and
smart and strategic and lovely. You are all of those
things in spades. And I really I'm just also really

(01:20:38):
just lucky to know you the way I do, and
I'm so glad that we get to do this together.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
Long time coming is right.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
One time, I have one story about Courtney Armstrong, just
one little aside. So Courtney and I were producers, and
like I said, from historically speaking, you know, she was
I was working someplace and needed to hire somebody for
two weeks and just to get me through like a
little crunch time, and enter Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (01:21:05):
Obviously that has never changed.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
That two weeks turned into you know, well over a decade.
And you know Courtney, we always say, is the tough one,
like she just kind of calls it like it is.
She's just gonna keep the train on the tracks, keep
the train on the tracks.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
And she and I were both always producers.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
And then one day, sometime during COVID, she discloses that
her dream job would be to be a narrator on audiobooks.
Audiobooks so huh, by the way, I thought I knew
Courtney so well. I was like, that's your dream, that
is sort of the good goal. Well, guess what we
make things for a living. And suddenly Courtney becomes the

(01:21:42):
voice of the Piked and Massacre her very first time
and obviously was a mega hit, and has now become
the voice of all of our podcasts, virtually all of
them at the bare minimum. Nobody does it better than Courtney,
and yes we're all on the podcast in different capacities.

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
Buttney's voice really became the bedrock.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
And again now she's like, oh, I don't make those
TV shows anymore. I'm talent and nan is she ever?
So welcome to True Crime tonight. And then Courtney Armstrong
at the hell makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
Totally, Oh here we are. Well, am I supposed to
follow Courtney? She did so well?

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
I like tough times, good times.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
You know, it's been hard. Whatever has been good.

Speaker 12 (01:22:28):
Yeah, you know, twenty twenty five has been a stay
a stellar year for me. The highlight of the years
obviously getting to launch the show. You know, it was
many years in the making. As Stephanie said, I'd get
a call every few months. It's still we worked, I promise,
I promise. Okay Stephanie, Okay, you know, but no, I
mean obviously working with you guys and getting to know

(01:22:48):
you and you know, meeting some of you for the
first time, and being so impressed by all of you
and listen, I'm hard to impress, like for real, so
I'm very impressed with.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
All of you.

Speaker 12 (01:22:59):
So that's my high I didn't really have any lows.
I'm not gonna, you know, do anything, but I did
write a little holiday greeting. It's very sure. So if
you want to my True Crime Tonight family, which includes
all of you here and all the listeners, thank you
for writing with us through the timelines, the receipts, and

(01:23:19):
the chaos. Rest up, protect your metadata, trust your instincts,
and we'll see you in the new year. Same MIC's
Deeper Dives.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
Well, yeah, this has been a wild wild year. Some
of the highs are undeniable and some of.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
The lows are. We're real this year, you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
Know, I think this year started kind of with a
bit of a bang. My dog died, as you guys
have heard so much about. I had just moved into
a new house, and obviously we know what happened to
that in the Palisades and through that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
Honestly, I would say probably, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
February March, this time last year felt a little hard,
like the walls felt like they were closing in. I
was living in a temporary situation, thankfully, but I don't know.
This is the show that kind of brought me back
to life, if I'm honest. You know, True Crime Tonight,
when it kicked in, when we really started getting serious
about its launch, I don't know, the fun kicked in

(01:24:24):
again and things felt funny again, and this group together
just some solid laughter even while talking.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
About such difficult things. I think became a real.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
Lifeline for me now, a whole new life and a
whole new place right And I love anybody listening.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
We are so so.

Speaker 2 (01:24:42):
Grateful for your talk backs and for your dms and
for your smart, smart questions.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
They're so impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
It feels like we're building a community, and this doesn't
feel like a show.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):
It feels like we're all in it together.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
And I think that's the important piece of what I
think twenty twenty six will in store for.

Speaker 3 (01:25:00):
Us is more and a little more. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
You know, two of the voices that you hear quite
a bit are Sam and Adam. Obviously they're in the
control room. Their iHeart greatness. And you know, we all
met when the show was launching, and boy, I think
we could all agree what a giggle that start was.

Speaker 3 (01:25:21):
And we were really bad, and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
We got the benefit of meeting Sam and Adam, and
I would like to say it was love at first sight.
And we have been here together every night for many
hours since and starting with Adam, Adam tell us everything,
the best and worst of your twenty twenty five.

Speaker 13 (01:25:40):
Oh boy, well, I mean, it's been a pleasure coming
on with you guys, and I can't believe we've been
doing it for I don't know, like seven months now
or something.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
It sure has been.

Speaker 13 (01:25:50):
It's flown by, and it's been great. You know, it
is a pleasure working with you guys, and you're all
very kind it's a fun atmosphere to be in. So
I'm great for this job. For starting this job this year,
I haven't done a whole lot personally. I mean, I
guess I have little music projects going on and stuff.
We played a couple of fun shows this year, and
so that was you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
Never talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Also, we've been talking about getting a True Crime Tonight
band started, right, and you know, Adam has been cheating
on us because he's already out and about doing gigs undercover.

Speaker 13 (01:26:22):
Yeah, well, I have plenty of time for the True
Crime Tonight band as well, you know, so we can
set some time aside for that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Let's get that started in the new year. I hear
some music cues in our future.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
And rest assured. There have been some very tough moments.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
You know, with a live show, lots of things can
go right and lots of things can go wrong, and
Sam and Adam have to shoulder.

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
All of that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
No matter what, the show always goes on, and you
guys make even the sticky situations really fun.

Speaker 13 (01:26:54):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:26:54):
I appreciate that we try our best over here. It
gets chaotic, that's for sure, but.

Speaker 13 (01:26:59):
Hopefully, hopefully the listeners don't realize that hopefully it all
sounds great all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
So all right, Sam, over there, go ahead, you're next
right far away. Yeah, so listen, Sam also keeping us
all in check, keeping the train on the tracks. This
twenty twenty five has been a beautiful time because we've
gotten to meet you guys, and I feel like we
all meshed very very quickly and have had our fair
share of giggles and hard times too. We've all been

(01:27:26):
so affected by some of the cases that we followed,
and you guys jumped right in and have such great
insight all the time. So you know, Sam specifically, have
there been any lows or any highs that you want
to share about your year?

Speaker 14 (01:27:43):
Just not only just starting this job, but also just
kind of figuring out myself, like from a personal growth,
just trying to develop since ever since I moved to
LA it's trying to better adults or functioning adults.

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):
It was a really good functioning adult.

Speaker 14 (01:28:02):
Oh thanks. I like to think I'm somewhat functioning and
just like being part of the show. Like I before
we did the show, I knew nothing about true crime
and I didn't even know where to start. And I
feel like we've kind of gone over everything, and from
like the murder parts to the like the legal side

(01:28:22):
to like everything, so everything's been very educational and on
the low end, like we kind of went over how
like Ozzie died and that was like a personal thing
for me because he was like my hero ever since
I was sixteen and to like go through like my
life and he's also like not that far from like
my own dad's age. So it's one of those things

(01:28:44):
where I realize when you get older and people that
have been around through your whole life and then like
they're slowly going, but then you just enjoy the memories exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
You took that very very hard Azsi's loss, you really did.

Speaker 3 (01:28:57):
And Brian Wilson for you, Adam, Yeah, that's right, I was.

Speaker 13 (01:29:01):
I mean, I'm just like a major Beach Boys fan
and I love Brian Wilson and spend a good deal
of time thinking about him and all the brothers, and
now they're all gone and it's very sad, but you know,
we're just grateful for their their contribution and the joy
that they gave all of us. And yeah, you have
to you have to hold on to the light somehow,

(01:29:22):
you know, and just be grateful for what they gave us.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
That's so true and serve body move in. So again,
we've all heard this story a thousand times. But we
were at crime Con and yes, saw body move in Courtney,
and I attacked her in the green room. We took photographs.
We have to post that photo, which bright us and
we took pictures and much like every single person here.

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
What did we say? Court I'm like, we're gonna nobody
move in forever? And why literally?

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
I was like, listen, are you available because we're going
to do a podcast and da da da da, And
as Courtney mentioned, yes, she just jumps right in body.
I just jumped right in head first. And was so
trusting because to her point, every couple of months, I'd
be like, hey, buddy, I promise you.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
What's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
It's just taking such a long time, but I promise,
and you just always kept the faith.

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
And when it came time for showtime, we did a
roll call, We're like who's in. Everybody was like boom,
tell us when, tell us where? And you have brought
so much smart and heart and laughter to the equation.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
You tell it like it is, and man, it has
been such an honor to have you in my daily life,
and I'm so incredibly grateful for that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
I literally write that down when I send my prayers
at night. So thank you so much, amazing after your
prayers too.

Speaker 12 (01:30:47):
It's funny because you know, at places like Crime chron
especially when you're one of the main speakers, and I
was doing two workshops. I was on the main stage
twice that weekend, and so you know.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
I had a staff of cards from people.

Speaker 12 (01:31:01):
Oh, I'm gonna call you, I want to get with you,
I want to work with you in the future, and
I've got like probably ten or so that reached out.
Eventually I ended up working with two, and you guys
are one of them. Because you know, you as somebody
who gets cast and things like you know this, you
have to suss it out. You can't roll with every
production company that calls you, right, you have to really

(01:31:22):
research them. And so I know a little bit more
about you than you think. And that's why I trusted you.

Speaker 3 (01:31:28):
I love it. Body knows my medidata, body knows my metadata.
I would wear that it's a copy and there's nobody
I trust with it more than body.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
We are so grateful that you spent the entire evening
with us, and we cannot wait to do this every
night in twenty twenty six. Please be kind, be loving,
and stay safe during the holidays.

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