Bryan Kohberger Investigation Leak, a Bahamas Disappearance Mystery, and Charlie Kirk Assassination Case

A criminal investigation is now underway into who leaked protected evidence from the Bryan Kohberger case to Dateline. Federal investigators have seized the sailboat tied to the disappearance of Lynette Hooker in the Bahamas. We break down major new pretrial rulings in the case of alleged Charlie Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson and the latest delay in the murder trial of former American Idol contestant Caleb Flynn. Plus, Lance Reenstierna from the Missing podcast joins us for Missing Mondays as we take a deep dive into the haunting disappearance of Maura Murray.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Monday, May eleventh. Everyone, We
hope you had a great one because we have a
stack knight of headlines. So a major investigation into the
leaked evidence to dateline. You guys will remember this in
the Idaho student murders. Remember that almost pushed the trial

(00:39):
at the time in the Brian Coburger case. Plus the
sailboat owned by missing woman Lynette Hooker and her husband
Brian Hooker has officially been seized in the Bahamas and
brought back to the US. What is happening there? Plus
new pre trial rulings for the alleged assassin and the

(00:59):
Charlie her case Tyler Robinson. They do have some requests.
Plus one of the co hosts from the great podcast
Missing is here with us in honor of missing Persons Monday.
You'll remember this case of Mara Murray which many of
us have been following for so so long, and it
still remains unsolved, so we're gonna dig into that in

(01:21):
so much more. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here as
always with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. Hello ladies, Hello,
Happy Monday, Happy Monday.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Did you guys have a good one? Yes? I did?
Did you busy little bees?

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:38):
I'm a little topped up. I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
I'm feeling hopeful we don't have hantavirus. Anybody who is
suffering right now? Watching this go down is so stressful.
I can't even take it. Yes, body, I.

Speaker 5 (01:53):
Was dying last night. Okay, so I was on TikTok.
I was like doom scrolling. It's like midnight. I'm trying
to go to sleep, right and there's this woman and
she's in her car and she's crying, like the tears
are flowing, and she's like.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
I have a sore throat? Do I have the hand
of virus? I listen. I woke up a little achy
just thinking about it.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
I was I don't know if she was being sincere,
if she was just like playing it was a joke,
but I literally could not stop laughing.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
I was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? Well?
It seems like it's getting contained. You know.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Just for the record, it does appear that this is
not a pandemic and something that everyone has taken an
extra precaution in.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
I mean, listen, God willing right.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
It does seem very harrowing for those who are being
brought out in these hasmad suits and thrown into a
special ward in Nebraska. So needless is say our hearts
are with them, and man, yeah, definitely puts cruising at
something that I'm going to put to.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
The lower in my list.

Speaker 5 (02:54):
And two because it seems to be like number one
because I love me the love right, but now not
so much I might do, you know, stay home and
just play it safe.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, we'll do a zoom cruise. How's that?

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Because we were going to do our big true crime
tonight cruise. And don't forget Sam and Adam. They're already
packing their bags. We have Sam and Adam in our
control room waiting by the phone eight eight eight three
one crime and of course our precious producer Taha is
also with us as well. And man, we have a
big night tonight. There's so much going on in the
world right now. We're going to try to break it

(03:28):
down as simply as we can. And of course if
you want to join us, we hope you do, or
just leave us a talk back body. Where should we
begin this? Obviously, this big investigation into who leaked this
information for the Idaho student murders is major.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:46):
Remember we talked about this when it happened, the dateline leak.
I mean I even have spreadsheet of all the weeks,
you know, because there were so many of them. I
wanted to keep track. So PhD student Right, Brian Coberger
convicted killer. He pled guilty in July of twenty twenty
five to the murders of four University of Idaho students,

(04:07):
Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Xaner Karnodle, and Kaylee Gonsalvez. And
side note, the Governor of Idaho declared yesterday No May ninth,
two days ago Kaylee Kaylee Day officially in the state
official congratulations to the cost family and they were working
hard for them. Now as part of the plea deal,

(04:30):
it removed the death penalty for Brian Coberger.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Right.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility
of parole. Right the Idaho Statesman, which is an excellent newspaper.
Kevin Fixer is an excellent reporter in Idaho. They published
a new article last week providing an update on that
criminal investigation into the source of the protected case information

(04:54):
that was leaked to NBC's Dateline. The episode aired in
May of twenty twenty five, ahead of the scheduled trial,
and a lot of people really thought that this was
really going to complicate the idea of getting a clean
jewy pool.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Now we talked about these leaks, they were like, it made.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
Brian Coburger look really really bad ahead of the trial, right,
and we were all concerned about, you know, how were
they going to have this trial if these leaks are
even true? Right, Well, the judge came out and said,
I'm going to look into these leaks, right, and then
we at that point we were like, oh my god,
they're real.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
These are real leaks. And do you remember some of
them were you know, Brian.

Speaker 5 (05:36):
One of them was Brian attended this pool party right
at the grove, and that he made a couple of
women really uncomfortable, so much so that their significant others
had to step in, and that he also exchanged phone
numbers with a girl named Holly and asked her to
go hiking. The searches for you know, porn that were

(05:58):
forced or passed out, sleeping or drug you know women.
We learned that there were some complaints happening at WSU
about Brian Cober, accusing Brian Coberger of sexism and you
knowing belittling his professors and whatnot. And then we also
learned that he stopped using his debit card right right

(06:18):
before the murders and started doing like forensics anti forensics
works on his computers. And he was like cleaning up
his work computer and his home computers. So these were
and oh, in the selfies, remember the selfies.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
The se sauce, of course, the selfies of him in
his bathroom. That really created a lot of noise. I
mean everybody was hanging on there the edge of their
seats seeing this new information.

Speaker 6 (06:44):
And then I was gonna say, also the damning or
in retrospect damning phone calls starting at six seventeen hours
after the murder to his parents. I mean, this stuff
was so inflammatory and painted him so broadly. I don't
know how you walked away with that without thinking, yeah,
this guy did it, period.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
One hundred percent, and go ahead and ste Now, I
was going to say, like even a real time because
we were making the Idaho student Murderers documentary right for
Peacock at that time, and I was living that real
time and just for the inside baseball of it all.
When you're making a documentary, certainly one that is an
open investigation. In our case on the Peacock version, the

(07:26):
plan was it would air with the trial, so it
was kind of.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
The lead up.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
All of the aggregated information kind of delivered in a
way that is not one sided.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Like both sides equally, you know, way fair.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
And by the way, that's really hard to do because
you end up hearing a lot of gossip and a
lot of stuff and in the town and people have
something to say, and if you can't legally vet it,
you cannot use it, and especially when you're dealing with
something that could affect an ongoing trial. So honestly, we
were mid stream the documentary when this date line piece hit,

(08:03):
and it really threw the lid off of things because
a it really painted a picture that I even thought, Wow,
this is Brian Coberger.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Boy.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
I hope he's guilty, because this is going to be
real hard to come back from. There's no putting the
genie back in the bottle right now. And initially we
even set out to do the documentary and even Courtney
with the podcast, it was really to almost not disprove
his guilt, but maybe for me personally, it was kind
of to disprove it, like prove that he did it,

(08:33):
because it's very possible that this case is so big
in the press that this guy's being targeted, and if
he could be targeted, we're not paying attention to whoever
maybe did this, and it's still at large now. Granted
he eventually he pulled out, so jokes on who.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
But at this.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Time, I got to tell you, I was so sick
over this leak, thinking that, oh my goodness, like this
is everyone's worst nightmare, and what if this pushes the
trial like this the families We had Steve Gonzalvez Junior
in our documentary who was counting the seconds until this trial,
like this was a really big deal. And if something

(09:08):
like a leak like this that none of us here
like we all take that so seriously, if that pushed
the trial. You remember all of the victims' families were
taking time off of work, they were planning on being
in Idaho, you know for months on end, potentially they
were having fundraisers to be able to afford the hotels
and the flights to get there. Not only the Gonzalvez family,

(09:31):
but Zanner Kernodle's family in Madison, Mogan's family, and of
course all of them to Ethan Japin's family, like they're
all suffering. So to have this information and by the way,
even Brian Coberger at this time he hadn't pled what
if he was innocent and for his family, who's you know,
believes in his innocence, this stuff coming out, it really
does destroy.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
The jury pool.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
They had to move, you know, this jury was like
thankfully it would have happened in a different part of Idaho.
But it's like the kind of stuff that a gives
anybody who makes documentaries or who do podcasts or anything
that we're doing real time. It puts a real stain
on all of it because it's not just entertainment.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
It's not just who can get to the finish line faster.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's like supposed to be an added lens of perspective
so that you know, people aren't being tried in the press.
I would be so upset on all fronts. Victim's family,
accused family. This is a real case and I personally
want to also know who leaked this and why.

Speaker 6 (10:36):
If you're just joining us, this is true crime tonight.
We're talking about Brian Coburger and the leaked and the
leaked details from dateline that almost pushed the trial of
the murders for University of Idaho students. Body, do we
have any more information to Stephanie's question about who.

Speaker 5 (10:57):
This leaked it? He listen, none of these individuals are
accused of leaking the information right. The investigators do appear, though,
to be still trying to determine whether the protected materials
were improperly shared, who had access, in whether any gag
orderer violation or you know, criminal contempt occurred. So right

(11:18):
now the investigation seems to be focusing on narrowing down
access rather than accusing a specific person who had access
to the materials. Sire Siree was a defense expert. He
was a digital forensics person. He confirmed that he has
spoken with the lead investigator in this investigation, Matthew Tedekan,

(11:42):
multiple times regarding the leak, and he's so he's been forthcoming, like, yeah,
they've asked me questions, siree. Another person, Brett Turvey. He's
a forensic scientist for the defense. Okay, now this is
a little complicated. He said that he was asked to
do interviews for this investigation, but he's declined, citing that

(12:03):
he has this confidentiality agreement with Ann Taylor and he
can't speak about anything, all right, But Ann Taylor's like,
you have permission to.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Speak with authorities.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
He also wrote a book though, all right, so he
writes this book.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
It's a little nuts in my opinion, he writes this book,
and so it's just a little saus right now to me,
Like he won't speak with investigators, but he wrote a book.

Speaker 5 (12:27):
Oh and by the way, he did a YouTube tour
as well. What but he's not talking to the investigators.
Why would he not talk to the investigators? Is that
imply that maybe he's worried that he was potentially the lead?

Speaker 3 (12:40):
I don't know, I do not know.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
So Ann Taylor actually the only public statement she's ever
made about after you know, he was Brian Coberg was convicted,
was about Brent Turvey.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
So it's very interesting there. Leander James, he's an attorney
for the victims families. He also confirmed that investigators reached
out to him back in April, right after leak April well,
I'm sorry, not right after leak this April April twenty
twenty six. Ri my mistake.

Speaker 5 (13:10):
And then Steve consols You know, a lot of people
thought maybe Steve was the leak, because you know, Steve
was really hot and heavy about Brian Coberger. But Steve Consolabus,
he's the father, by the way, of the victim, Kaylee Consolvas,
one of the victims.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
That's right. He supports.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
He he's come out and he said he supports the investigation,
and he believes that these leaks upended the chance for
a trial and contributed to the decision to offer Brian
Coberger plea deal because all sides knew he wouldn't get
a fair trial.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
And by the way, that is a really real point.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
And let's just play that out, taking the characters out
that we know, we know Brian Coberger and his plea deal.
We love the victims' families so much, just from Afar,
so you know, they've been suffering. The idea that this
gets pushed on or it messes with the sanctity of
the trial, and on the Coburger side, if I was

(14:02):
his family, I'd be real annoyed by that too, because
maybe this was the inciting incident that caused him to
pleay out and listen if it was. If it's true,
which I believe that it is. If this is true,
then I guess you know, here we are. But again,
I think everybody really needed that trial, and I think

(14:23):
on all sides, victims and even the accused family, they
just needed the finality of this as well. Maybe we
would have gotten the allocution and we would have had
to have heard from Brian Coburg or what in fact
caused this event to even happen, because right now it
just got shut down. A plea deal came, and I
know that probably leaves family members a little bit sort of,

(14:45):
at least since Steve Gonzalveez's case, you know, Madison Mogan's family,
some of them have different takes on whether this was
a good thing or a bad thing. But I don't
think that a journalist gets to decide that type of stup.
And that's why documentaries are extra tricky, because you know,
again you want to be an aid, to be indifferent,

(15:07):
but also make sure that you're not stepping on the
toes of law enforcement either.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
I definitely agree. Now, if a person subject to the
gag order is identified as the leaker, they could be
charged with criminal contempt of court, and you know, ultimately
they could be fined and be served jail time. So
this is a very serious investigation and we're definitely going
to be following up on that, So stay tuned for
that when we come back. Though, missing woman Lynette Hooker

(15:32):
her sailboat has now been seized by federal investigators as
questions continue to grow around her disappearance in the Bahamas.
Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as
always with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In. And we've
been talking about all things. This cruise. How about the
cruise that's happening right now and Americans are being potentially
put into a what is the word for it, a

(16:14):
bio metrics chart.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
What is the what's the thing that you go into
a biodomee?

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Sounds I don't know, scary, I might be horrifying for
these poor people that now have to go into potentially
quarantine for a very long time. We're grateful to them
for doing it and that we're catching it, so hats off.
We really do appreciate them taking their care so safely
so that we can all be safe. But boy, it
triggers all of us. It triggers all of us so

(16:44):
much post pandemic stuff. How about this other cruise too
that you know, it hasn't gotten a ton of traction
in the news yet, but there were some many people
that were pulled from several cruises, eight total, maybe one
of them was actually a Disney cruise, and people were
alleged to be carriers of child pornography.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Is that accurate? That's exactly right.

Speaker 6 (17:09):
So federal agents ended up detaining twenty seven cruise ship employees.
This is across eight different boats, including one.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Of which was a Disney cruise line.

Speaker 6 (17:20):
This all happened at a San Diego port after an
investigation linked them to child sexual exploitation materials. So interviews
were conducted on these eight different vessels and after that
the US Customs and Border Protection this is hard to
swallow protection. They confirmed that twenty seven out of the

(17:43):
twenty eight crew members who they questioned were indeed found
to have been in contact with the illicit contact content.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Rather so the child in sexual abuse material.

Speaker 6 (17:55):
Twenty seven out of twenty eight people questioned so as Yeah,
and as a result these individuals they were immediately deported
to their home countries. None of the people questioned were
American citizens in this. But some people are just to
give both sides, Some people are criticizing that it might

(18:17):
be a slippery slope revoking visas without any formal criminal
charges because the charges haven't been made.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Are they going wow? Well activists right now?

Speaker 6 (18:34):
Are They're seeking clarity on sort of what went into
the investigations, so on the surveillance methods, what were those used,
If the workers who were sent back, you know, had
their visas revoked, if they weren't granted any access to
legal counsel or due process.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
This is scary on both sides. So on the one hand,
you have people who are obviously have a pension for
young children and are you know, aggregating child pornography and
you know, Disney Cruise being just one of the eight.
But man, oh man, how much of a nightmare is
that for any parent or a loved one of a
young child to think that this type of nefarious person

(19:17):
could be just hanging about while you're trying to enjoy
your time with your toddlers and young children. There's an
assumed sense of safety on some of these cruises. And
then on the other hand, if there's a ton of
surveillance that's not appropriate and people are getting yanked off
the boat and you know, sent home to their countries

(19:37):
because they haven't even been formally charged.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
That's very scary as well. What a mess.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's interesting to me that this is not getting so
much attention in the mainstream media too. We're talking a
lot about, as we should, the Hunter virus, but this
one's kind of gone below the radar from anything that
I can see.

Speaker 6 (19:56):
Yeah, there's not been a lot of reporting. Although one
interesting thing, This whole vent instigation took place over just
a five day period April twenty third to the twenty seventh,
so just a couple of weeks ago, and there was
video recorded of some of the crew members they were
let off the ship. They were handcuffed or and or
zip tied while still wearing their uniforms, and apparently one

(20:20):
of the passengers identified one of the detained men as
their family's dining hosts. So if you've ever been on
a cruise, it's kind of it's your body, it's your
friend who's there to make dinner more food.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's the best. By the way, your dining host is
the jam. By the way, if no one's ever been
on a cruise, it's so fun. Nobody enjoys a cruise
more than me. I was looking forward to the true
crime one. You know, the ice cream at midnight. All
they do is stuff you with food, the big open
you know, tons of the cheese plates, in the you know,

(20:53):
the buffet that never ends, in the dancing and the
congo lines. Then you find out the guy is like
a kiddie porn collector. That's not great. But what if
he's not, and what if this surveillance is being used
in an unreasonable way?

Speaker 6 (21:06):
All of the above, and then the one thing I
will say, because the talk back is in my ear
from the other day, child porn is something that we
all that is the phrasing we all are used to,
and people are suggesting child sexual abuse material see Sam,
so just for see Sam perfect, can.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
We explain the difference that too?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
For you know, someone like my mom for example, what
is the difference and you know, what is a sensitivity
around child pornography versus you know, referring to it as
it should be, you know, as the other.

Speaker 6 (21:44):
I mean, I don't know if they're you know, the
dictionary definition, but I just think what it is is
making it seem you know, more like what it is,
which is.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Child abuse, right, child as opposed to something that's consensual.

Speaker 5 (22:00):
And I think it's more victim centered, right, Like, it's
more this is abuse.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Material, not like a sexy like a consensual clip the
main for entertainment, right, this is abuse material. I think
it's more just victim centered.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
I think that's abuse and exploitation.

Speaker 7 (22:20):
It really clarifies that that's what's happening, someone being abused
and exploited as opposed to to your earlier point, pornography
can be used as a way that it's it's it's
a consenting group and this is not.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
That, right. I think that's the major distinction is consent.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, we've gotten a lot of feedback on that too.
It's such a smart call yesterday with our talk back
and our collar because yeah, it is you know, sometimes
pornography could seem like it's something that's you know, hot
or sexy, or that people do or that people view
on a regular basis, you know, like it or don't
like it.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
It's in the it's in the culture. It's not criminal.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Whereas you know, so you have a child involved, clearly
they're not consenting to having their images used and it's
you know, meant for sickos.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
So this is a tough one. Say, cruise is a
tough one. It is a tough one.

Speaker 5 (23:12):
But when we are quoting something though, if it says
child p you know, let's say, we're still going to
quote it the right way, you know, which.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Is totally fair.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Shows so much because we get to talk about it
and break that stuff down and we can all kind
of learn together. We learn, yeah, we like share and
grow and evolve together. So moving on, what should we
do next? By the way, if you're just joining us,
this is true crime tonight, and we've been talking about
the recent bruises, all eight of them that have had

(23:45):
some you know, alleged tricky characters on there who are
collecting some unconsensual potential photographs in such and video that
include included children. So body, where should we go next?

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Listen?

Speaker 5 (24:01):
The Bahamas boat Lynette Hooker and Brian Hooker. Right, so
this is insane. Saturday May ninth, the Saturday just passed,
the US coastcars seized the sailboat that they that they owned.
The Soulmate was the name of the sailboat. It belonged
to the Michigan couple Brian and Lynnette Hooker. And if

(24:21):
you remember, in early April, Brian Hooker reported that his
wife Lynette fell overboard on that eight foot dinghy around
seven thirty pm. Brian claimed that Lynette had the boat's
ignition keys like kind of in her pocket when she
fell overboard, and that caused the key to be removed
from the engine, and of course the engine wouldn't start

(24:43):
back up without the key, and that left him unable
to restart the boat to go get her, right, he said.
He said he paddled for hours against strong currents and
it took him hours and hours to reach the shore
at four am, Like what is that?

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Eight hours later.

Speaker 5 (25:00):
Lynette Hooker's daughter, carr Carly Aylesworth has publicly questioned that
account right of events and continues searching for her missing mother.
So the boat, you guys, it was intercepted This is
so interesting to me. The boat was intercepted by the
Coastguard while traveling from Marsh Harbor, which is where the

(25:20):
boat was moored. It was heading towards the United States,
and it was like intercepted. So the Coastguard like went
out into the middle of the ocean and got the boat.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Because it was on its way. So it was like, no,
taking you with me. They intercepted this boat. Who was
driving the boat, who was driving the boat? Who was
driving was driving the boat? Oh no, yeah? And at
at whose request? Right?

Speaker 2 (25:47):
So is this the husband Brian Hooker will remember Brian
Hooker husband? You know, he's alleging that his devoted wife
who he's had some you know, issues with from a
domestic violence perspective over the years. There have been some
accusations back and forth. And look, he seems like he

(26:09):
was going to stay, come hell or high water to
find his beloved Lynette, and he was not going to
leave that Bahamas Island until answers were found. And then
like twelve hours later he was on a flight back
to back home to the US to care for his
ailing mother. And this is where a perspective counts. Like,
on the one hand, I think that just is a

(26:31):
real bad look and that you're thinking, this is Lynette's
mother in law who no doubt was ill and had
something doing.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
No question, we're not questioning that. But was it life
and death?

Speaker 2 (26:41):
And wouldn't the mother in law want Brian to find
his missing.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Wife her beloved daughter in law?

Speaker 6 (26:48):
Well, go ahead, I was gonna say all of that
is super valid. Also, if he is being looked at,
he is not charged with anything. Brian Hooker important to you.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Should be hysterical trying to find her a mess?

Speaker 6 (27:03):
Well, I don't think there's one thing the guy could
say or do that couldn't be construed or misconstrued as, oh,
look at the way he said that he did it.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
So I don't know if counsel things knock in door
to door.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
This guy needs to knock on every door on every
house and look under every rock and search around every
tree and every forest and everywhere. Can you imagine if
you were at sea with your loved one and they
fall over the boat? This is like Honestly, just the
thought of this gives me a straight rash.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
It sounds so horrifying. What do you do?

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Do you jump out and swim to land? I'm a
pretty good swimmer, but not an amazing swimmer. This guy's
swimming for eight hours to go get help. You have
to assume he's going to get to shore, get help
and find her.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
This guy dipped.

Speaker 5 (27:55):
Well while you were gone stuff, there was another something
else that happened. And I've heard this yet. That okay,
So the bartender, the bartender remember they went to like
this restaurant, right, yes, yes, And the bartender came forward
and said that he remembers the couple. He said, he
remembered the couple. I'm doing this her memory, so please

(28:16):
forgive me if I get something wrong. But I think
I got it right. And Brian Hooker was like exceptionally
like nice to him, like in chat.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Noted him at the bar, like he was so not
to the top, like almost as though he was time
stamping his drink order so that the bartender would note
him as a time stamp for this timeline that maybe
he was doing in his head.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Spot on. But he then went on to say he
never laid eyes on the wife.

Speaker 6 (28:46):
Interesting, right, but yeah, and you referred to her as
a couple like he spotted.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
The exactly, That's what he said.

Speaker 5 (28:54):
Then the coastguard wanted to know about a sailboat that
was moored next to the Soulmate and they wanted to
I swear, and they wanted to speak to the owner
because they wanted they knew that the sailboat was there
the night Lynette went missing. I think they think something
happened on that sailboat and they want to talk to

(29:16):
the person that was next to them, and that's why
they confiscated the sailboat.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
How have they not confiscated the sailboat before because also
think because it was in the Bahamas.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
It was in the Bahamas, So tricky, tricky, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Again, we're not accusing Brian Hooker because he does claim
his innocence. We're just plant we're theorizing right now. Brian
could be a devoted husband who's missing his wife and
maybe loves his mother more and is caring for her.
I think she has kidney failure. She does have something
doing for sure, and you know he had to be
there for her. But even if he went back to

(29:50):
check with mom, you'd think he'd be on the first
plane back to help. You know, his stepdaughter, who's you know,
turning up looking everywhere for her missing mother. There is
nothing worse than this story. And again, Lynette's just missing somewhere.
Has Brian just assumed she's dead? What if she's not.

(30:11):
What if she's unconscious and lost her memory and has
swamped she swamped ashore and doesn't remember who she is,
And yeah, she's somewhere in the town. Maybe she's you know,
in a little village and no one.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Knows who she is. Who knows, I've seen this movie.
I've seen this movie.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Sure shouldn't Brian be hoping for the best and turning
anything he could think of into something positive to find
her and making sure that law enforcement is staying on it.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
He is not even in the mix. Now, Well, we don't.
We don't know.

Speaker 6 (30:42):
He may have his own private and talk about the
horizing he may have his own private investigator going sure, say,
you know, he may have many us hell.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
Us Brian.

Speaker 5 (30:53):
Well right now because current exact location is not public
and his Michigan based US attorney has declined any comment.
And I want to end this with the final words
from the daughter. From Lynette's daughter, Carly, she said, this
is the first Mother's Day without my mom. It's pretty
hard right now to know that she's not a text

(31:15):
away anymore. Very horrible, so horrible body.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
This American Idol murder case is another one that keeps
getting pushed.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
Why yeah, Well, an Ohio judge has now rescheduled the
murder trial for Caleb Flynn. He's the former Idaho Idaho
I've got Idaho on the brain. He's the former American
Idol contestant accused of killing his wife, Ashley Finn, in
their home. Just as past February, Caleb he was arrested
after a calling nine to one one to report a burglary,

(31:48):
which prosecutors now allege was staged right to cover up
the murder. He remains in custody as the legal process
is moving forward towards the new September date. During this
attorney scheduling conference that happened on Thursday, Judge Janine Pratt
moved the trial to September seventeenth.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
The trial, which.

Speaker 5 (32:10):
Has already faced several delays, is expected to span about
two weeks. And I remember this just happened in February, right,
and initially the trial was going to happen in April
because they did not waive their right to a speedy trial.
He wanted a speedy trial, while now they're planning on
the September trial.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Both the prosecution and.

Speaker 5 (32:30):
The defense have until May fifteenth to submit a list
of specific areas within the Flynn home they wish for
the jury to inspect in person, because remember, the jury
is going to visit the scene of the crime. The
judge is currently this is really this one's really bothersome
to me. The judge is currently taking a motion regarding

(32:51):
the testimony of the children. She's taking this motion under advisement.
Here's what's going on. The prosecutor have indicated they may
call Flynn's two daughters, who were reportedly inside the home
the night of their mother's murder. Okay, the court reporting
says that prosecutors want special accommodations for the girls because

(33:15):
of their ages. They're they're nine and twelve years old.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Okay, they expect the test accommodations.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
I agree.

Speaker 5 (33:21):
The expected testimony appears focused on what they may have
heard or observed during the night of the shooting. Additionally,
and it's important to remember, Caleb Flynn is also charged
with witness intimidation, So I don't know if those are connected.
It's just me guessing. Now here's what's bothers them to me?
The defense has challenged the aspects of how the testimony

(33:43):
would be handled, particularly their requests for special accommodations during testimony.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Special accommodations usually.

Speaker 5 (33:50):
Means like let them testify in like close circuit TV
so they don't have to be in the court room.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
Things like think about.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
How traumatic you are nine and a twelve year old
at any age, a child having to actually go on trial,
sit up there on a stand and testify. Again, somebody
you love so much, it's like their father is on trial.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
How do you not.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Instinctively want to defend your father, right you feel guilty
or you also may be blinded by love. These are
the youngest girls in the world. I pray they didn't
hear anything and that there were no circumstances for them
to weigh in on.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
I dislike this.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
I know it's part of it, and that probably is
the most effective way to find justice in this case,
because again, he claims he is innocent, so if that's
the case, hopefully this can prove him innocent.

Speaker 6 (34:43):
But man, this stinks. I gotta be honest. I don't
care guilty, innocent or otherwise. To be fighting the argument
that your children should not have to sit in a
courtroom doing vader for jury duty. My heart beats. It's
like a scary place. They are intimidating places. And I

(35:04):
am a grown adult and I didn't even have anything
to say, and I was still it's nerve racking.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
But I think it's abhorrent.

Speaker 5 (35:12):
I did too, And before the show, I went and
looked up what kind of special accommodations would they maybe be,
you know, wanting to do. And some of the things
that I think the state is asking for maybe is
you know, having a support person sitting, you know, nearby
while the child testifies, maybe clearing the courtroom of any

(35:33):
unnecessary spectators during testimony. And then the one that really
stood out to me was limiting aggressive cross examination tactics. Right,
That's a big one to me, and I think that
might be a sticking point for the defense. I think
the defense may want to have some aggressive cross examination

(35:57):
questions that the state is like, no, you're not going
to the kids on trial here.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
And by the way, I'm with you Courtney on that
point that you made earlier too. I think just thinking
this through. So you're Caleb, the former American Idol contestant
who's now on trial for the murder of your wife,
and you have these two young, beautiful children who could
maybe set you free. And there you are, You're you're
sitting in a courtroom and you're staring at your kids

(36:22):
as they testify. How brutal you know, kids under that
kind of pressure. To your point earlier, Courtney, like, who
can stand that pressure as a functioning adult, let alone
as a child. I'm surprised they wouldn't remove the accused
dad from the courtroom in the simplest way, maybe removing
him so there's no eye contact or intimidation.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
And this is one of a terrible.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Scenario, and kids go through this a lot. I mean,
this unfortunately does happen. It does happen more often than
we think that children are kind of called to the carpet, right.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
It's unfortunate, But if they're witnesses, you know, it kind
of has to happen, right, And I think your point
is well taken.

Speaker 6 (37:05):
Body about the defense potentially wanting the latitude to cross examine,
which it is their job to defend. And you know,
if there is an accommodation that it can't be aggressive,
maybe the defense is also worried about the line that
they'd hardly be able to do cross at all.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
But wouldn't as a dad. I'm you know, as a
parent on trial, wouldn't that also be top of mind? Listen,
my kids are going through it enough for you their mom, Yeah,
for you.

Speaker 5 (37:35):
Yeah, but this guy is also the guy who's killed
their mother allegedly.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
He doesn't care about them.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
I'm sorry, but I mean he killed her mother allegedly,
like he doesn't care about them.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
I say, I get that.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
The husband that for you killed his wife with the arc.
Who's the fake art gallery guy? I block his name out?

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Who is the killer? Brian Walsh?

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, that guy had no shame in the game, Brian Waller.
I hope you're listening. Shame, shame, shame. He killed his
wife and he would have put up anybody to you know,
get in his his like carnival of a you know.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
For the saws. And he was at home depot.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, that's right, he was at the It wasn't home depot.
It was a different kind of homes store. Yeah, where
he was buying a chain store to kill their wife.
They kill their mom and the kids are right there,
so I guess that's where my brain goes and it
heats me up. But what are you supposed to do
in that situation? You know, is it appropriate to have
a therapist alongside you know, the lawyers in a special

(38:36):
small room that's maybe away from this scary thing, because
they're going to live with this thinking that maybe they
put their dad behind bars, or that they didn't defend
their murdered mom enough and now the killer is walking free.
No matter how you slice this, you know, their feelings
are now caught up in it.

Speaker 5 (38:55):
Or he uh, he did this and one of them
witnessed something that would convict him and he was like,
you're not going to tell anybody, you know. Oh, that's
why he's charged with this intimidation of a witness.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
But we're going to find out.

Speaker 5 (39:10):
A formal ruling on whether or not how the children
will testify is expected really shortly. The trial was originally
slated for the April twenty eighth, before being pushed to
me forth and now it's going to start on September seventeenth.
And this latest continuance was granted following a motion file
by the defendant's defense team, so he gave his right

(39:33):
up to a speedy trial, and we'll see what happens.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
In September.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I did speak to some friends who I used to
work with an American idol one hundred years ago, so
this was a much later season. I did season one,
literally back, the most archaic season of all time. But
some of the people still work there and they all
had the nicest things to say about him. It's shocking.

Speaker 5 (39:53):
Well, he submitted a witness list and it has like
one hundred people on it and they're all from his church.
So I mean the people that he goes to church
with really hold him in high regard.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Thanks can be true, both can. That's true. You can
put on a good.

Speaker 6 (40:06):
Act, I think, and he could also be completely innocent
and there wasn't tragic you know, break in at his
home that took his wife's life right the time, and
the trial will tell. Listen, if you're just joining, this
is True Crime Tonight and we're talking about Caleb Flynn.
He's accused of killing his wife, Ashley Flynn, and we'll

(40:26):
be following this trial closely as it continues. But now
we'd love to hear from you, and let's grab a
talk back.

Speaker 8 (40:34):
Hi True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
Friends.

Speaker 9 (40:35):
Al from Fredericksburg.

Speaker 10 (40:37):
I just wanted to wish you all a happy Mother's Day.
To you all and our listeners, I want to thank
you so much for all the ways you've made my
job as a mom even easier. All the different topics
you have have really started great conversations between myself and
my daughters, whether it's not leaving your drink unattended, what
to do when you're out and about in social situations,

(40:58):
being aware of your surroundings, face online presence, limiting social media.
Thank you so much for all the conversation starters.

Speaker 9 (41:05):
Thank you so much for all you yay chills.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
By the way, we have this conversation probably every four
days where it's like is it too dark, Like we
have to make sure it's productive, and sometimes it's hard
to be productive when you're talking about things. But I
think even unpacking cases that's the nicest.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
That's nice. Thank you for that's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Everybody is giving their talk backs with their tips, and
we've gotten so many great tips about you know, this
is a village, baby.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
We don't have all the answers.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
We're learning it together with all of you all. It's
a it's a little club of safety. So yeah, thanks
for all the tips and tricks too about how to
keep all of us safe, because it's gone both ways.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
Even if it just helps one person talk to their daughter,
that just makes everything to me worth it one hundred percent.
One person to be able to maybe approach their teenage daughter.
Who gosh, when I was a teenage daughter, my mom.
Oh I felt so bad.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
But like I said, just one person.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
Soamel, you really made my day with that comment, and
on a day that I needed it, so thank you.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, and just.

Speaker 7 (42:18):
To add to that, you know, I think our audience
is brilliant. We have a lot of really hit people
from all walks of life, so they share things that
we may not have thought about or may not be
aware of, which actually is going to lead into this
next talk back.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
Adam, can you play this one? You guys are going
to love this.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Uh oh, this is this twenty eight here. I want
to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

Speaker 6 (42:38):
Nineteen A Okay, uming it up now.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Our hearts will kind of stop whenever it talking about
there's a little lack of talk.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Pas.

Speaker 4 (42:50):
This is a good one.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
You'll love it all right.

Speaker 9 (42:52):
Here we go, high ladies. Tina from Mecan wanted to
thank you for the Nurses Week shout out. I have
been in our since the early nineties. Please don't do
the math. I was around for the start of the
HIV crisis and then I lived through the COVID crisis.
Haunted virus might.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Do me in.

Speaker 9 (43:12):
I may not. I may not survive that one. I'm
now a nurse practitioner and I am offering my services
as the official true crime Tonight nurse practitioner consult free
of charge anytime. Love keep it virus, and again, thanks
for the Nurse Week shout out.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
Let me tell you yeah something. Yes, I'm afraid of doctors.

Speaker 5 (43:34):
Okay, I had a doctors appointment today, all right, and
I but it was a nurse practitioner and she was
so nice and she put me at ease, and I
would not have felt that way if it was the doctor.
I prefer the nurse practitioner. They are like doctor juniors,
but they do everything anything.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
She did my whole procedure. She did everything, But they
get they can't get the money. That's also the annoying.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Like I wish I really raise awareness because I know
there's like more of school, but blah blah blah, blah,
whether you're doing all the work. I think they're underpaid.
And I would like some information about hantavirus. You know,
I've only watched I really try to see all sides,
so I feel like we're getting is it completely being
over dramatized in the media or is it not being

(44:21):
dramatized and question. I don't really know the answer. And
I was very compliant during all things COVID. I've had
every facocta vaccine known to man. If they were like,
here's a booster, I was like, put it straight in
my forehead.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
I really did. And I think now we know that
probably wasn't good. I don't know where did that all land?
Was that all bad? Am I going to die a
slow death?

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I don't know, but it does trigger sort of this
terrible feeling of misinformation.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
And I don't even know where that where I sit
with it, But I would love the truth, and I
feel like, well, Tina, it's our especial true your practitioner now,
so it's with Stina. If you know the answer in
this handsa virus mystery, Stephanie needs to know. Otherwise I
don't want to do any more vaccines. Please, no more

(45:12):
for this right, I.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Sneakingly think that there is going to be a vaccine.
But oh, contentasy theorist. Now, so Adam, what do we
think are we going to have vaccines coming to the attention?

Speaker 11 (45:24):
You know, I just after COVID, I just don't even
have the bandwidth to think.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
About hant a virus until it happens. So I'm holding
my breath. I don't think.

Speaker 5 (45:35):
Yeah, I have faith that this is going to be
contained and it's not going to spread.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
I really do have faith.

Speaker 6 (45:41):
That's according to the World Health Organization.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
It seems so that's you said.

Speaker 6 (45:46):
It's who I am choosing to look too, And it
seems like they're like, we all have COVID, the pandemic,
the shutdown in our brains.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
This neurovirus is probably spreading faster. There's so many diseases
that spreading. I mean, the numbers are technically very low
comparatively speaking, but still really tragic. So not to undermine
what these poor passengers have been going through, I would
be a nightmare at this point.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
We would all be new tunes at this point.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
It is hysterical, hideous nightmares in has met suits.

Speaker 6 (46:23):
We'll keep it here because coming up at the top
of the hour. There are major new pre trial rulings
in the case of the alleged Charlie Kirk assassination case.
And give us a call. We're at eighty eight three
to one Crime. We'd love to hear from you True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here
with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. So Tyler Robinson,
who's been accused of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, has
you know been back. There's some pre trial ongoings happening

(47:09):
real time. We're about to unpack that. And also later
in the show, we're very excited to have Lance Reheensterna here.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
You may have caught.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
The podcast called Missing and he's also done a documentary
about the infamous Mara Murray case. This is one of
those cases that true crime you know officionados, which you
know all of us within the sound of my voice,
are you know? Where is Maura and Lance in the team.
They have really dedicated, frankly, their lives to getting answers

(47:40):
on this. So we're so happy he's here in honor
of missing persons Monday. But first this, you know, Charlie
Kirk trial. It's close, and remember we all witnessed this assassination.
This is the trial that's affected all of us. And frankly,
I wasn't aware of Charlie Kirk, admittedly, and I've been

(48:03):
wildly affected by the loss of him and just seeing
that real time. I think we all have as human
beings are seeing a person be shot and assassinated. Whether
you agree with is politics or not, it's still a
human being, right and a father, and I think we're
all recovering from the trauma of that. So I think
this is one of those trials that we'll all be

(48:25):
playing very close attention to and worth noting that Tyler
Robinson claims his innocence period court fill us in.

Speaker 6 (48:35):
So just on Friday in this case, the overseeing judge
is Tony Graff, and he issued two key findings. So
Tyler Robinson's the twenty three year old who is accused
of the fatal shooting, and he's actually facing multiple charges,

(48:55):
including aggravated murder. So prosecutors have officially stated their intent
to seek the death penalty. So that's one thing that's
come out I think unsurprising. I don't know if you're
definitely unsurprising him. By the way, if he's guilty of this,
this should stand.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
You know, that is a very this is horrific.

Speaker 6 (49:15):
Absolutely, And this is interesting because this is a largely
contented point. The judge has denied a defense motion to
ban cameras from the courtroom. So the defense absolutely did
not want cameras in. They argued that the coverage was sensationalist,
that it contained the jury pool, but the judge ruled

(49:37):
that this ban it wouldn't have been supported by law,
and prosecutors argued that transparency is indeed the best way
to fight conspiracy theories surrounding this high profile case and
Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk, also came out and was
publics publicly saying she wanted cameras, probably for that very reason.

Speaker 5 (50:00):
Here she I would think, so she's kind of taken it, right,
she's taken like the brunt I think of the conspiracy theories.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Like people think she's.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
Really kind of, you know, not mourning the way that
they think she should.

Speaker 6 (50:13):
Right, people have said unconscionable things about her. I won't
repeat them or the people's names who have said them,
but absolutely, And so this is so hard profile and
so heated that it's gonna be it's gonna be hard enough.
With it televised, people will be saying untruths anyway, and

(50:34):
at least in this case we all have the capacity
to actually watch the actual proceedings.

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Yeah, Like, if you shine enough light on something, right,
you can't really say that there was a transparency, right, Yeah,
shine enough light on it.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
I definitely what happens in the dark has to come
out in the light, right. And you're right about the
fact that Erica Kirk, specifically his widow, she's really a
point of controversy. And I'm not entirely sure why I'm
not as close to the players here, other than just
the sheer horror of a young man being, you know,

(51:09):
assassinated in plain sights when you know so many people
were witnessed to it.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
It's such a terrible thing.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
So, yeah, she's really divisive, and maybe that's the best
that's the best route is just full truth, go with it,
the best.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Truth antidote exactly.

Speaker 6 (51:28):
Another update is that the preliminary hearing it was originally
set for later this month.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
But it's been moved to the sixth.

Speaker 6 (51:35):
Of July, and that delay was granted to allow the
defense team give more time to review the complex there's
a bunch of complex d GETA evidence, including analysis of
the rifle that was used in the shooting, and also
we've spoken before about the bullet ballistics. That's something that

(51:57):
needs to be handled.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Carefully.

Speaker 6 (52:02):
But the legal teams they will be back in court
on the nineteenth of this month, and that's for hearing
to decide if portions of the upcoming preliminary hearing should
be sealed from the public oh or not.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
I really hope not too.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
And it's a funny though, because we started this show
talking about the Brian Coberger case, his trial, and frankly
all the media's involvement with that, myself included, and you know,
all of us really following it so closely, and the
idea that perhaps all of the media attention could could
kind of mess with the wheels of justice the way

(52:41):
you know they're talking about Dateline for example, By the way,
I love Dateline, so that let the record show. But
you know, moreover, this is going to be one of
those cases that is sive and so massively divisive. I
think we all need to see it and have clean answers.
I've alway he's been curious about the many clothes Tyler

(53:04):
Robinson was able to change into. I know that this
has been discussed wildly. I don't know that that's one
piece of it that I'm always sort of curious how
that all ties up.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
But again, he claims his innocence. He does, and waiting.

Speaker 5 (53:19):
Maybe we'll get an answer to that question if they
have this preliminary hearing and we're able to access some
of the records from that.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
This is true Crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
I'm body Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and
Courtney Armstrong. We were just talking about the upcoming trial
of Tyler Robinson, the man accused of murdering Charlie Kirk.
But we're going to shift gears a little bit and
get an update from the University of South Florida. What
do you got the report?

Speaker 6 (53:50):
Yeah, Friday was a busy day apparently because also on Friday,
May eighth, the State Attorney's Office formally announced it will
also be seeking the death penalty, and this is against
the accused, Hashim Abu Garbia and Abu Garbia. He is

(54:12):
accused of fatally stabbing his roommate z Emil Lamone and
Lamone's friend Nahita Bristi. Those two were doctoral students at
the University of South Florida, and the accusation is that
the suspect again it was a stabbing, and then the

(54:34):
bodies of the two victims were disposed literally in trash
bags and then embodies of water.

Speaker 5 (54:39):
Can I say something I'm sorry to interusted Courtney. There's
something about when these these suspects in this case put
bodies of people in trash bags that really get to me. Like,
these two were doctoral students. It doesn't matter really what
they were. They were human beings and you put them

(55:02):
in trash bags. I always thought about this with Brian Walsh.
We were just talking about he did the rest of
his wife in a dumpster, Like, this is a human
being that you were supposed to have cared about. Now,
this guy, Hashim, they were friends with these two, right,
he was so Yet one point you cared about these

(55:22):
people and you threw them in trash bags.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
And we talked about this with David the musician.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
He was about to stay trial the layer that you
go listen, all the things that we talk about are
hard to wrap your brain around. I listen, and by
the way, people make bad decisions and you're like, how
did this mess happened? And then you kind of hear
the backstory and the origin story, and somehow we're supposed
to be a little more settled in the why. Right,

(55:49):
We never really are right, Like, there's never a good
reason for any of this, which is why it's important
that we talk about it. But once you get into dismemberment,
your body bagging, you have to assume there has been
a sadistic undercurrent happening with this person for a really
long time. So anybody that's come into contact with this

(56:10):
person prior to the event is like, Wow, you really
dodged a bullet. Quite frankly, I guessing all of the
cases we talk about, there are so many people who
have dodged a bullet who just kind.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Of brushed with death.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
This guy could have been a normal guy, live in
a great life, and this is what it comes to, right.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
That's right.

Speaker 6 (56:31):
One of the one of the main not the main
one of the main things. But an important aspect in
this case, and we'll see how this plays out in
the trial, is how much chat GPT will or will
not factor into this because the suspect allegedly did consult
with chat cheept for various advice how to dispose of bodies,

(56:58):
asking how to alter the number of your vehicle to
avoid detection, so that will be part of it.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
And then in case involving AI, right.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
It's sickening. It's so stressful. I can't wait for you guys.
You know those listening to hear Body in an interview
that I just listened to today that Courtney had done
with you Body about AI. Excellent interview, I might add excellent.
But boy, this is a title wave coming. The idea

(57:32):
that people are taking a moment in the midst of
a murder and in the midst of figuring out how
to dispose of a body, and then they're consulting with
chat GPT, and then chat GPT responds with an answer
on how to dispose of a body is next level scary.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Welcome to it. This is so horrifying. AI made me die.
That's coming out? When is that coming out? Court? June sixth?
Is it our premiere. I think it might be the third,
but don't quote me. I will. Yeah, we'll get back.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
It's well the trailer. We're working on it now. So
but just terrifying. That's an added layer to this already
horrific story.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
It's an added layer.

Speaker 6 (58:11):
And just this is a quick aside, but as of today,
there was a deadly April twenty twenty five shooting at
Florida State University and the family of one of the
victims they filed a federal lawsuit against open AI alleging
that chat GPT assisted in the planning of the attack.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
And that it's.

Speaker 6 (58:38):
Really specific they told the shooter where to go for
the most visibility and victims. Yes, absolutely, and helped really
co plan the execution of the crime, according to records.
But that's going to be an interesting trial to watch

(58:58):
the implications.

Speaker 5 (59:00):
Absolutely federal, federal, Yeah, okay, that's very interesting.

Speaker 6 (59:03):
Yeah, that one and the Florida I want to say,
I'm pretty sure it was the attorney general. He had
one of the most interesting press conferences I've ever seen.
And quote I'm saying, yes, he said, listen, you know,
if this information was coming from someone on the end
of a phone, they would be charged as an accessory
to murder. You can't, wow, you plan anyway, So okay, wow,

(59:29):
it's a base deal. So to the that was a
big aside.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
Excuse me.

Speaker 6 (59:33):
So the suspects, by the way, back to the us
F students, he's indicted on seven different counts, two counts
of first degree murder, tampering with physical evidence on lawfully
moving a dead human body two counts of that, and
failure to report a death two counts, which is actually

(59:55):
kind of interesting. I don't usually recall seeing that slept on.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Yeah, I mean sure, it's interesting, very interesting. Okay, so
they're they're seeking the death penalty. Now, the prosecutors cited
three specific aggravating factors, So I'm always interested in the
aggravating factors, like what makes them what makes this a
death penalty case versus that?

Speaker 5 (01:00:18):
Right, And the prosecutors are saying that these homicides were cold,
calculated and premeditated, and the crimes were especially heinous, atrocious
or cruel, and the defendant committed multiple homicides during a
single episode.

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Wow, unfeevable. That aggravating factors.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Yeah, just to add to that, in like the new
information of it all, you know, the White House shooting
or assassination attempt on President Trump.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
That gentleman has also.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Said that he's not guilty, so has entered his plea
today too. Also, something will be following closely as that unfolds.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Is that the one that just happened that the press
exactly exactly okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Crazy time, even like Jeffrey Epstein's brother is now saying
that the letter that we talked about the other night,
the suicide letter, Jeffrey Epstein's brother is saying that it's
a forgery.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
No way, that's all coming out real time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
So you know, we're just sort of I'm saying, I'm
saying that as a top line. Will unpack that more
in the days to come and we have more information,
But yeah, unfolding.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
I didn't think it looked like his handwriting.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
You said that, you salled it, you know, and the
brother would know the handwriting.

Speaker 5 (01:01:45):
Well, when you compare it to other notes that are
on file, his handwriting is very consistent, and it's like
he long presses in it. The pen never leaves the paper.
It's very good. This note is like chicken scratch.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Oh, I just.

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
Anyway, I did want to just acknowledge that the University
of South Florida awarded both victims, Emil Lamone and Mehita Bristie.
They awarded them their degrees on Friday and honored them
with two empty chairs during the commencement ceremony. My goodness,
So I just wanted that to be acknowledged.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
And please do stick around.

Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
We have one of the co hosts and the podcast Missing,
who's going to join us for Missing Mondays and we're
going to dive into really one of America's most haunted
unsolved disappearances. Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
the girls, Courtney Armstrong and body movin full house tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Everybody. We have Taha and Sam and Adam.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Please jump in eight three one Crime or keep those talkbacks.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
Come in. We have a big thing because it's Missing Mondays.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
And to keep this alive, we have the real deal
with us right now. Finally, by the way, I love
this podcast Missing, I loved the documentary. I can't wait
to talk more about it. Courtney, do you want to
give us a proper setup absolutely.

Speaker 6 (01:03:23):
We're so excited that as part of our series Missing,
Monday is where we get to take a deeper look
into one missing person's case. Every week we have a
guest with us, Lance Greensteerna.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Did I say that? Well enough?

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Perfect?

Speaker 12 (01:03:41):
Perfect, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
We have Lancreen Sterner.

Speaker 6 (01:03:43):
He's a co host of the podcast Missing along with
his co host Tempelary, and they're from All Space Media,
so they spent years investigating some of the most talked
about missing persons cases in America, and the disappearance of
Maura Murray is the one we're going to dive into tonight.

(01:04:06):
So Hello, Lance, thank you so much for being with us.

Speaker 12 (01:04:10):
Hello, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to
be here. And I was actually fascinated with the conversation
that you all were having before I joined. I feel
like I wanted that to continue for the for another.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Few says us. Bring it, Yes, it's right, jump beIN. Lance.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
You were one of us, just chickens, come on, bring
it on.

Speaker 12 (01:04:29):
Texting, I was like, this is all, Like this is great,
Like I agree with them.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
I know that it was a forgery.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
It was a forgery. Listen, you were welcome on the case.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Any case too, So you know, the more eyes on this,
the better. I just want to say also, and Courtney
can attest to this. This is, you know, a bit ago,
but we were working with Oxygen at the time, a
little inside baseball. Every time we went into the room
to discuss the project that we were either pitching or
working on at the time, always brought up this Maura

(01:05:01):
Murray case in the documentary and the importance of it
and the great work that you've done. So sometimes that
doesn't get really said enough, you know, in the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Ether, because it's hard work.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
You know, you're talking about really difficult things, and I
know you're trying so hard to be actionable, and you've
dedicated your lives to this, especially this particular case that
has left us all haunted, as they all do, of course,
so hats off, you know, just so you know, the
walls talk so beautifully about you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Oh yeah, thanks, that is fact. So we should always
say something about Mara, right.

Speaker 6 (01:05:34):
Like exactly I was going to say for anyone who's
unfamiliar with the case Maura Murray. She was a twenty
one year old nursing student at UMass Amherst, and she
vanished on February ninth, all the way back in two
thousand and four, so Maura email professors saying there'd been
a death in the family, something that later proved out

(01:05:55):
not to be true. She then packed up her dorm
room with Drew Cash, bought quite a bit of alcohol,
which I learned from listening to your podcast today, and
drove north into New Hampshire, and that very evening Maria's
car crash. It was on a dark and rural road
near Haverville, and witnesses reported seeing her near the vehicle,

(01:06:19):
but by the time police had arrived just a couple
of minutes later, Maura Murray was gone. She has not
been seen since. So, Lance, why do you think Maura
Murray has indeed become one of the most punting missing
person's cases.

Speaker 12 (01:06:35):
I don't think it's for one specific reason. I think
there's a few reasons. One of them the most I
don't know. One of the most major reasons is because
she's so relatable. I think, no matter who you are,
you know, we were all in our late teens or
late twenties, we all had stuff going on. We all
had moments in our lives that we thought were much

(01:06:56):
bigger than what they were so we took them a
lot more seriously, and everything that she had going on
in her life we could relate to. She had some
problems that happened, and this is no judgment at all.
She just ate things in her college existence. And she
went to West Point for God's sake. She was a
military student, so she was actually like a very disciplined

(01:07:18):
human being. But she had some things, you know, she
had some things that kind of popped up that she
was dealing with. So we all deal with stuff, and
I think that there was something that was really relatable
to everybody and relatable to me and relatable to Tim.
And because we're in Massachusetts and she is from Massachusetts,
she disappeared in New Hampshire. I was born in New Hampshire.

(01:07:39):
I'm familiar with the White Mountains, and I know that
people will hear like the White Mountains, and she disappeared
in the White Mountains. And there's this like haunting element
of like geography there that also contributes to this. So
it's the relatability. It's a this is the only term
I know to describe this. It's a fish out of

(01:08:00):
water type thing. She's she wasn't a fish out of water.
In the White Mountain. She hiked it all the time.
But in that area that she was in it was dark, cold, locals,
you know, it was.

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
It was haunting.

Speaker 12 (01:08:14):
So I think that's something that kind of like resonates
with people, right, And.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
It's such a mystery. It's it's such a mystery. Walk
us through the timeline that night. What do we know
for sure?

Speaker 12 (01:08:27):
Yeah, I'm timeline is the timeline is detailed out based
on emails, police like dispatch logs, information like that, neighbors
who were phoning in police and but it goes beyond
the timeline. But anyway, just dealing with the timeline. On

(01:08:50):
February ninth, in the afternoon, she emailed her professors, like
you said, she said that there was a death in
the family way back in the day. It was a
discrepancy between death in the family or emergency. But either way,
like that was not something that was true. So there
was no death in the family, there was no emergency.
And on that day, later in the afternoon, about three

(01:09:11):
thirty pm, she leaves to the college, leaves you mass Amherst.
She withdraws cash from an ATM. So I think that
cash was around one hundred and eighty dollars, So for
a twenty one year old, anybody like that's that's cash
she's gonna at. And in two thousand and four, you
know this isn't like sure people use debit cards and stuff.

(01:09:33):
That cash was pretty prevalent back then. She crashes her
car at about seven pm on Route one twelve, the
wild Aminusic Road. Wild Aminusic is the name of the
river that's right there in Haverral, New Hampshire, at at
a seven twenty seven, Faith Westman who was the neighbor

(01:09:59):
who lives they say neighbor. She was the Faith Westmin
and her husband Tim Westmin lived in the house that
was pretty much directly across from where more acrossed her car.
And it is this hairpin type turn, so she crossed
the it seems like she crossed the line the yellow line,
overcorrected and ended up facing the other way. So this

(01:10:21):
accident caused Faith Westmin to look out her window and
at seven twenty seven, according to the dispatch logs, she
calls police to report that there's a single car accident
directly across the street. So a second neighbor at about
seven forty three report seeing a person in the driver's

(01:10:43):
seat before the car's found. So we have about what's
the what's the math on that? About nine minutes?

Speaker 7 (01:10:50):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Oh? Nine minutes okay?

Speaker 12 (01:10:53):
So or eleven minutes. Yeah, sorry, I was going.

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
No, you're good, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
Sorry, I'm just go ahead, You're good, okay.

Speaker 12 (01:11:04):
So at seven forty six police arrive at the same
scene and they find that there's nobody in the car.
It's a single car accident, and nobody's there in the introim.
There the other neighbor, butch Atwood. He's a bus driver
and he is coming back from dropping off students from

(01:11:26):
a field trip. He sees the vehicle there, he stops,
He opens up the side door, and he sees Mora. Well,
I have to be very careful with what I say.
He sees somebody who he's described as Mara there, and
he asks this person, do you need help? She says no,
I've already called Triple A. He says, you can come
up to my place, get warm or whatever. I don't

(01:11:48):
know exactly what he said. I'm just going from newspaper
reports in his own his own account. She refuses any
help from him, and he's one of the most tragic
characters in this because he's this big guy. He seems
like this kind of lovable, kind of gentle giant type guy.
And he's always said, even to this day, he'll or

(01:12:09):
before he always said that he feels like he probably
could have done more and but he just didn't like
think about it at the time. And he's said, she
probably looked at me and was a little freaked out
because I'm, you know, this big guy. But he only
lived like maybe one hundred and fifty yards up the road.

(01:12:31):
So he goes back to his place, back's in his
bus and goes inside. They also make a phone call
from his house to the police. He goes back out
to his bus to complete his uh like his driver's
lack and in that time, so those are the important
time periods right there. Seven twenty seven is when Faith
calls and seven point thirty two is when butch Atwood

(01:12:55):
the bus driver stops. And then from there, in that
moment of like whatever seven minutes, eight minutes, something happens
and she's just gone. And I think that goes back
to the first question. That's what draws people in. We're
all inherently into solving puzzles, Solving mysteries, untangling knocks, thank you, yes,

(01:13:18):
and just getting like the knot keeps getting tighter and
tighter the more you look into it, and that's that
is what keeps drawing people in. And there's nothing, nothing that's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:31):
Do you have a gut on this?

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
You know? I would imagine you've been so close to it.
Is there just you know, a theory that you feel
close to or is that just not something that you
could even allow your brain to theorize on.

Speaker 12 (01:13:47):
Well, I've gone through different like moments, and like when
Tim and I have been doing this show, we've gone
through different moments and myself and him have had different
theories on what's happened, and we try our very best
not to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
H really push those.

Speaker 12 (01:14:02):
Because that's when you start like losing sight of the
actual goal. When you start saying like I'm right and
everybody's wrong, that's when you start losing sight of what's
what the goal is.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
But it's so true.

Speaker 12 (01:14:13):
The more time passes and the more information and like
sort of fake not fake, but the more flimsy leads
or flimsy theories start to get dispelled, it just becomes
more and more evident that it was probably a local
person who sees on an opportunity and something went wrong

(01:14:37):
and they knew the area, and they knew where they
could get away with them, they knew where they could
dispose of remains and get away.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
With them seven minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Just thinking about that Courtney body, like that's in a
wild Just say, there is such a fast moment of time.
And obviously there were neighbors and you know this driver
of the bus that were so thoughtful there were a loading.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
Glass on her.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Yeah, like she had time stamps in this timeline that
were extremely real. Many cases don't have that. So just
the idea that in under ten minutes or under seven
minutes that something so nefair. You have to remember too,
this was two thousand and four, So like ring doorbells
and you know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Because I get that a lot, why didn't you guys
do this? Or why didn't you do this?

Speaker 5 (01:15:25):
Was two thousand and four. There were no ring doorbells
or nest cameras and CCTV wasn't as prevalent.

Speaker 6 (01:15:31):
And lance with retrospect, do you think the investigators that
there were any opportunities that they missed early on?

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
Good question?

Speaker 12 (01:15:41):
I mean I am personally well, I'm a podcaster, So
I comment, right, I can comment on investigations. No, I yeah.
I mean when we started this, we didn't start this
thinking that we were going to investigate a missing person.
We started this because we thought that the community who
was very passionate about More's disappearance was super fascinating us.

(01:16:04):
We wanted to explore that. And the more we did it,
the more we realized, like we are actually investigating this
kind of by default, like we are conduit for inf
for information. Now, what do I think investigators might have missed?
I think, and they probably would say the same thing
is that they probably shouldn't have just assumed that this

(01:16:24):
was some quote drunk college student who got into an accident.
Gram was going to turn up at at at some
place later on. I mean, it's in the dispatch logs
they say she'll probably turn up turn up at the cottage.
And the cottage was the name of the like a
smaller hospital, that she would turn up there, and they

(01:16:46):
didn't really look.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Oh, and those moments are so you know, critical and
an investigation, and chances are had she been buying a
bunch of alcohol, you know, and had done this you know,
hairpin turn where her car is facing in the wrong
door for authorities. In their defense, they roll up, They're like, well, yeah,
this is maybe a party situation, and she didn't want

(01:17:08):
to get busted for maybe she had been drinking and
didn't want the cops to come, so she took off.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
You could see how that narrative could play out.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
And yet here you are working in the heart of
true crime, realizing that that might only be part of
the story and that you know, real trouble ensued.

Speaker 12 (01:17:25):
Yeah, and I honestly think that whoever picked her up
used that against her and said, listen, you've got alcohol
in your car, come with me. We'll let this blow over.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
One hundred percent agreed. Percent agreed, yep. Oh, because she
probably was scared, just like she was of the neighbor.
She was like, no, I'm just assuming the guy was like, well,
you got in this accident. I can see the vodka bottle.
You should probably come with me. I'll help you get away, right,
and you know, something like that, something like that. Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:17:54):
But Lance, thank you so much for joining us tonight
and spreading time spreading the Moura Murray story. If you
have any information regarding the disappearance of Maura Murray. You
should contact the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case Unit
at six oh three two two three three eight six
ozho and please listen to the Missing podcast from Crawlspace

(01:18:15):
Media wherever you get your podcasts, and you can hear
Lance talk all about this case and coming up, We're
gonna wrap up tonight with your talkbacks, including reactions and
comments about all the cases that have stuck in your
head that we've been talking about all week.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
Keep it right here, t your crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker with Courtney
Armstrong and Body Move In and big thanks.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
You know, Lanced, I liked you a great job. He
was so I mean, Maura Murray is so hard.

Speaker 5 (01:18:55):
This case is, you know, twenty two years old at
this point, there's so much to unpack in only like
ten minutes, you know what I mean. I would love
to have him back to do like I'll see too
if we could. And his podcast he did.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Kinds of cases, so maybe he could be a regular
on Mondays. And I can tell you there's a little
resurgence because we talked about this even in the Kristen
Smart case yesterday or last night. This the idea that
a podcast can be very actionable. Obviously, you know Body
or the og of this and Don't f with Cats,
which again, if anyone hasn't watched it, please please do

(01:19:33):
yourself a favor. I'm saying this really objectively. Don't f
with Cats is so good and so important and Body,
of course is the star of it, so she won't
say this, but it's really important stuff and I think
is a real benchmark of how actionable content can be.
And you know Lance and his team as well, they're

(01:19:54):
in that same mode. You know, they're looking to you
know and again for on it. They really want to
move the needle. And yeah, I think that with it
in a time when everything's kind of click baity and
oh we didn't have all the information. But here's the
sexiest piece of the the headline.

Speaker 3 (01:20:13):
Here's the juiciest.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Part that we haven't verified this, you know, or we
were just talking about this dateline leak. If that ends
up surfacing, you know, it's all sexy, sexy, ratings, ratings, money, money,
and you got to remember these are people's lives being
wrongfully accused of something, or you know, having justice not
served for a family member or a loved one who's

(01:20:34):
lost or missing or lost their lives. It's so sacred.
And I wasn't doing a great job. They Yeah, the
whole team over there is doing a good job.

Speaker 5 (01:20:44):
I think it's, you know, long form investigative podcast like that,
my jam I love it, and I love that podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
So I'm glad. I'm glad he was here. Yeah, good job.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
Thanks for thanks Lance. I feel like we never have
enough time with anyone, but just have to come back more.

Speaker 7 (01:21:01):
I think that's a good reason to bring him back,
and he would love to and he does a lot
of cases that I would love to begin to with
you guys. So but in the meantime, it's that time
where we can jump to some talkback. So this first one,
I'm just gonna give your heads up, Steph. It's about
some topics we covered when you weren't here, So.

Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Just play along. I would like to say I listened,
but I totally didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Like So No, I knew it was so good and
I could play catch up when I'm back, But.

Speaker 6 (01:21:29):
That would be like reading reports when you're out of
the office, Losory, would it be if I was like, yeah,
my fingerprints, Yeah, bring it, talk back, let's go for it.

Speaker 8 (01:21:45):
Hey, y'all, it's lead from Ontario, Canada. So I just
have a few points related to the episodes from this
past week to one. In terms of breastfeeding, I'm a
mom of three. There was no way I could go
to age three or more. But I have to say
that there's a lot of pressure on breastfeeding when the
key should be just feeding your baby and ensuring your

(01:22:05):
baby as well. And secondly, can say I'm so off
pictures of his COVID jacket. I'm a huge metal man,
definitely want to see his project. And third you had
to talk back about someone possibly buying a list house,
and I'm going to say that I love old architecture.
When we were looking to relocate eastern Ontario, we were
looking at victorians and century homes. I absolutely love them.

(01:22:29):
But my husband wanted to be sure no one had
died in the house, no crime for the courage in
the house. And I'm like, I don't care. It's Queen
Anne Wood. What does it matter?

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
Any who matter?

Speaker 8 (01:22:39):
For Weekend people?

Speaker 13 (01:22:40):
Next episodes, your priorities, right, We got to take that
in chunks we talk, let's start right where we Where.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
Do we begin? Oneast prest?

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
We all agree, yeah, like, can we first off, give
women a break? If you are not able to breastfeed,
it's all good in the hood, sister. If you want
to breastfeed, amazing, God bless, it's amazing. But you know,
what's the cutoff point? Because I always thought it was
like a full set of teeth, but that I've been

(01:23:13):
told is not accurate. And I actually heard two friends say,
get off of that. You're you're you're siming in the
wrong pond. I really as if I'm talking too much
about breastfeeding on this show, but like, I don't know,
it just seems incredibly painful for mom too.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
Yeah, I don't know. I think eight years old, like
we talked about last night, I agree, Yeah, I don't know.
That's a low bar.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
Let's just assume what is the age ish broad strokes here,
because again we're not trying to trained, that's fair. If
you can take food, if you can hold a drumstick.

Speaker 7 (01:23:53):
If you can pick up the food on your own, if.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
You can eat corn on the cob, it's over.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
I really don't know. I'm no shame.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
I truly don't know, but I think it's I mean,
in my head I always imagined it went along with
potty training.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
But I what do I know a mom it was
that's all longer, I would bet.

Speaker 6 (01:24:13):
I'm actually trying to find it right now what the
age of stopping is. But potty training, that would be
a lot. That would be a very committed mother. But
that is also around the time when you know, you
you lose the diapers, as you said, and you lose
the pacifiers and the yeah, and you grow out of
the stage of needing the baby humphort. Ha's oft to

(01:24:33):
anyone who can do it two and a half years
because you're I mean, that's a you are tied.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
To your kids. I mean there's pumping, of course, but anyway, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Just the pumping is a whole thing. Is I also like,
at some point you can't always produce This is so gross. Sorry,
this is not gross.

Speaker 4 (01:24:51):
It's natural.

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
Sometimes we can't produce milk. I think we all have
to learn about this. So here we go, Sam and
Adam listen up. Sometimes enough is an off, and you,
as a mother, you feel guilty because the world is.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
Like telling you, how dare you?

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
I remember sobbing and I think it was like eight
months in oh no, walk in the park. Eight months
is a long time, and I remember feeling like a
failure that was tapping out too soon.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
Oh totally, they're really, Lee is correct.

Speaker 6 (01:25:19):
The pressure is insane because even I'm sorry Sam and Adam, but.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
I have.

Speaker 6 (01:25:27):
Ye Anyway, it's tough and uh yeah, however, however you
do it or don't do it?

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
God bless well?

Speaker 4 (01:25:38):
Could we bring down the second part of that talk back?

Speaker 7 (01:25:41):
Stephane, you weren't here, and we all we interviewed Sam
and Adam and asked them a little bit about the
behind the scenes people got to know them, and what
we learned about Sam was that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:51):
He likes to sew and the best sewer.

Speaker 4 (01:25:55):
How did you know this?

Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
You knew because I listened to the episode while I
was at the kidding no, but for some reason, I
feel like I know this? So yeah, Sam, when are
you gonna show us the goods?

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
I'll send photos to Tahar, I'll even model for the True.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Crime Sam Project Runway of True Crime Tonight love it?

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Listen, can you bring the guitar? I can try to
arrange that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
And Adam, are we gonna what is the hold up
with the with the with the instruments, get the music going.

Speaker 11 (01:26:32):
We're I don't know, Well we'll figure it out. Well,
we need to rehearse for the true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Well we need is like one like one little queue
that's like the US, you know, and rather than us dancing,
we just have like one like you both do something
at the exact same time, like simultaneously.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
We'll arrange that. We'll have that arrange for you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:26:53):
We'll get that together, all right.

Speaker 7 (01:26:55):
And the last part of her talk back was about
lists and older home that might have had someone that
dies in them.

Speaker 4 (01:27:02):
I don't know about in Canada, but in the US.

Speaker 7 (01:27:04):
Typically that has to be disclosed, so I think your
husband would know the info.

Speaker 4 (01:27:10):
And I'm kind of with your husband.

Speaker 7 (01:27:12):
I wouldn't want to live in a home where someone
has died, So leave it at that for me.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
I don't know about anyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
What are your thoughts, Taha, Can we ask you a
follow up to that, though, per or caller. So let's
assume that we're leveling as body had recommended. We level
the ground so the house is gone, but the property
like the place, which in this case is nothing to
shake a stick at.

Speaker 3 (01:27:34):
This is a really beautiful neighborhood and neck of the woods.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
If you knock down the house and there's no basement,
and you sage and you pray upon this beautiful time
and then you rebuild.

Speaker 7 (01:27:46):
I think, well, for that particular home, if we're talking
about lists, no, the answer is still so many people
have that one is too many things that's happened in
that one.

Speaker 4 (01:27:56):
But if someone like, maybe this is now going to
sound awful, maybe one murder in a home, I might
think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
Yeah, he killed those basement underground. You can't level the
I mean you, there's to me, there's not enough leveling
that you can do to like cleanse the soil.

Speaker 4 (01:28:16):
So to speak for me for me same and speaking.

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Of you, just saying a lot you used to want
to go on the.

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
Tour, But she wouldn't live in a house, like yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
Wouldn't buy the house though, I'm not going to live there.
Yeah I'm not going to sleep in it, like no, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:28:35):
And didn't we wasn't there a scene where I think
she was the ASA was walking around staging someone in
the daughter was And there's not enough stage in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:28:47):
But Yeah, we need to bring in the big dogs
on that one. Yeah, let's uh do another talk.

Speaker 4 (01:28:53):
That's true? What are you at?

Speaker 8 (01:28:55):
It's Cropper from New Zeudlands.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
I just keep thinking about BK sitting.

Speaker 1 (01:28:58):
In the cell, being annoying with his bananas or.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
Whatever, and hearing about res humor and getting studied by
the FBI.

Speaker 8 (01:29:07):
They want to know what's going on in his brain
and all of those things.

Speaker 3 (01:29:11):
And I just think of BK just sitting there.

Speaker 9 (01:29:13):
Seizing, being so good, annoyed that it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:29:16):
Him my girl from Snoopie, my movie Nafe where all
good things happen.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
Where in Newfoundland has it all figured out? I don't live.

Speaker 5 (01:29:28):
I imagine that the FBI at some point is going
to be talking to Brian Coberger, like when he starts
to you know, when he I think it's going to
happen within ten years, okay, And I'm only basing this
on his other fascination with other serial killers and things
that they have done. Okay, And it takes about seven
years to get to the point where you start talking.

(01:29:49):
Once he starts talking, I do think the FBI, But
however I do so I do imagine him sitting there
just being like, like, just because he have the attention,
he does not have the attention right, Rex has the
attention and the command basically right now of the FBI.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
That's how I view it, right, and he's seething about it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
I often wondered even when Luigi Mangioni was arrested with
the bushy eyebrows, because he was being described with these
bushy eyebrows and he had sort of taken that lime
handsman and they was like, yeah, a handsome guy. People
were putting money into this, by the way, money at

(01:30:32):
one of the million dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:30:33):
At this line of money.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
People are really into this Luigi thing. We should talk
about that. I have so many feelings about that. But
at the time, I remember thinking, do you think Brian
Coberger's irritated right now by this newfound limelight because now
there's two dark haired, bushy eyebrowed, well raised humans that
are sort of, you know, not the typical murderer if

(01:30:59):
you will, Oh, Luigi, Luigi's making me crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
Also, I'm very upset with Luigi.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
I feel like there was much better ways to use
his big brain to make his big point. Obviously, his
point resonates one point five million dollars or one point
three million dollars were in his account from air quotes,
supporters and fans, where he spent his twenty eighth birthday
in jail behind bars.

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):
No, No, it's a real mixed message to me.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
On the one hand, it makes me mad that people
are spending money on somebody who took another person's.

Speaker 3 (01:31:32):
Life in cold blood.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
And on the other hand, obviously his message resonates, so
you know, if only he was using that message with
you know better lining like murder's not the answer, that's
not the way to get attention. But he had a
really big brain. He was like the smartest guy. What
a waste I hate. I get very mad when I
think about Luigi.

Speaker 7 (01:31:57):
Can I ask a dumb question about the talk back
regarding Brian. Would he have access to all of the
news that, like everything with this, so he's seeing everything
real time that we're seeing.

Speaker 5 (01:32:08):
I mean, I don't I don't specifically know like what
he has access to, but I do think he has
a TV.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
Yeah, Okay, or at least at one point when we
were doing the podcast tablet of something at some point
we had heard and courtly correct me if I'm wrong
on this. But he was watching the news and we
always assumed our stuff as well through the bars of
the jail under in Moscow, because he was in Moscow

(01:32:35):
still and he was being held in this like small
room kind of under the courthouse, which was a little untraditional.
And here is like this would be, you know, mass murderer.
Frankly for people, is that count as a mass murder?
He's sitting there by himself and was like allegedly watching
the news and all of the coverage, you know, through

(01:32:55):
the bars at a TV down the hallway, which I
always thought was sort of chilling, Yeah, sort of chilling.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
Yeah, Yeah, he's a mass murder.

Speaker 6 (01:33:06):
Speaking of people watching or not watching things in prison,
do you guys remember when Fitty Senate came out that
he chose to do his big interview about the doc
on Ditty on ABC because that is the station that
was airing in Ditty's prison.

Speaker 3 (01:33:26):
By the way, fifty Company is also the company that
did Lisk. Yeah, yes, you're for what an advocate you know?
Same here And by the way, when I was at
sun Dance.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
The director of the Ditty doc who you know, I
was obsessed with that documentary as well. She was there
I had the benefit of meeting her and she was
way cool. She'll totally come on the show. I'm completely
space until this moment. They were so cool and she
was so wonderful and yeah, fifty cents, did I say

(01:34:02):
it right?

Speaker 3 (01:34:04):
This one's for you kids.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
Joseph Scott Morgan Forensics Tuesday will be with us tomorrow
breaking down what do we have on the deck?

Speaker 7 (01:34:13):
Oh, that cruise ship virus outbreak, and we'll talk a
little bit about everything involving Scott Peterson.

Speaker 4 (01:34:19):
Nice, everyone join us tomorrow. It's gonna be good.

Speaker 3 (01:34:23):
Good night, everybody, stay Si