D4vd Court Hearing, Epstein Survivors Speak Out, and Lynette Hooker Boat Seized

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Tuesday, May twelfth, and we
have a stack knight of headlines. Singer David appeared in
court today and it was wildly anticipated as he waits
for his trial for the murder of fourteen year old
Celestrevus Hernandez allegedly. Plus finally, the boat owned by the

(00:41):
missing Bahamas woman seized by the Coastguard.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Listen, they have it.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's being guarded, but the forensics are really uncertain at
the moment. And also earlier today, the Epstein survivors held
a conference today in Palm Beach, West Palm Beach specifically.
You know, that's very significant and they're really talking deeply
about the release of the Epstein files and how it's
been handled. Plus we have two very special guests. Of course,

(01:06):
it's Tuesday, so we have Joseph Scott Morgan, host of
the hit podcast and on YouTube Body Bags. He's with
us to discuss all of the forensics. And get this,
we've been talking a lot about this Epstein suicide note,
so we have an actual.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Forensics handwriting expert.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Bart Baggett is here and he's going to analyze the
note before us live.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
I'm excited for that.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
Good.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
What do you think your vote is that it is
not real? Is that correct? Body?

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Oh, by the way, Body Movin is here in Courtney
Armstrong and I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and of course we.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Have tah, Sam and Adam in the control room. Way
to bury the lead kids.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
I apologize, Oh, how dare it back to the handwriting sample?

Speaker 3 (01:48):
What do you mean?

Speaker 5 (01:49):
I don't I'm no expert, but it just doesn't look
like his handwriting. And I even considered like this frantic
state one might be in just before me ending your
own life. You know, it just for me doesn't feel
like his handwriting. But again we'll have to hear what
the expert says. What do you think some people are

(02:10):
saying that it does?

Speaker 6 (02:11):
You know?

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Listen, I genuinely don't know. I just think the timing is.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Very unusual in the little sus But again that doesn't
mean anything. And frankly, I would be comforted to hear
that it was correct and that it's something that we
can lean into and trust the authorities and the report.
I always feel good about that. But I do have
a raised eyebrow as I say I do. I absolutely do.

(02:37):
Plus he held on to it. The guy is cell me, like,
held on to it because of his own case. I
don't know, it's just the whole thing's a little hinky
to me. Let's say it that way. Well, he's the
expert's going to tell us because we don't even know
the information. So we'll be dining it out live real time.
And I think some of us body, you did not
do this, and there's probably a good reason, but we

(02:58):
handed in handwriting samples of our own to be, you know,
loosely examined.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
So, oh, did you do yours? I didn't do mine.
I They're like, I have an examination. She is annoying,
so will be.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Part to the test here. So yeah, we're so looking
forward to it. I'm like kind of at the edge
of my seat. Also, all this David the musician again
back in court. Lots of coverage today, you know, buddy,
do you want.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
To fill us in? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (03:27):
So David was in court today. He's twenty one years old.
He's professionally known as David. He's facing multiple felony charges
in Los Angeles related to the death of you know
that fourteen year old girl, Celestrivas Hernandez. David has pled
not guilty to all the charges, including for sucret murderer.
The prosecution is alleging that David killed Celeste after she

(03:51):
threatened to expose this illegal, you know, sexual relation. I'm
using this unquote relationship that could have harmed his music career.
You know, he was getting ready to release that album
Withered and go on this world tour in like a
couple of days, and you know, apparently Celeste was threatening
to expose their relationship and that would have really ruined

(04:14):
his and ended his career. He appeared in court today
for a very brief status hearing related to scheduling the
preliminary hearing, and it was interesting. There was some reporters
in the courtroom and they observed some interesting things. David appeared.
He was in an orange jumpsuit, you know, the one
that you have to wear in jail. He had a

(04:35):
white long sleeve shirt on and reporters noted that he
was unshaven, and he didn't get that haircut he was
asking for because his hair was like kind of curly
and longer than they had you.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Know it was before.

Speaker 5 (04:47):
And people from inside the courtroom said he was unusually relaxed,
and at one point he reportedly exchanged a wink with
his defense attorney, Blair Beck while they were, you know,
discussing the case. He winked at her. I thought that
was kind of weird, right anyway, I can't hear you stuff,

(05:08):
I can see you.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Is that a little creepy? Was it like code? You know?
What is the thing now? To decide? It's very weird.

Speaker 5 (05:16):
David's defense team accused, though, the prosecutors of stalling to
buy preparation time, claiming that they still haven't received you
know this requested DNA evidence, and the lead prosecute prosecutor,
Best Silverman kind of fired back at that and said, listen,
there's a sheer large amount of volume of discovery totally

(05:37):
at least forty terabytes, which makes turnaround really impossible. And
before the show, I did some research. I wanted for
the listeners to understand how much forty terabytes is, right,
I'm this math, Yeah, I was like, let's see what
can we Everybody has a phone, a cell phone, most people, right,
and the average American has a phone with about two

(05:58):
hundred and fifty six gigabytes. You know, you're buying your
Apple phone and you choose storage options, most people choose
a two hundred and fifty six gigabyte phone. So if
you're if you're looking at your cell phone and it's
two hundred and fifty six gigabytes, think of it as
being one hundred and sixty of those phones.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's forty terabytes, one hundred and five of those phones.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
One hundred and sixty right now, if you're like a
content if you're like a content creator or like a gamer,
and you're doing a lot of like video and whatnot,
you would probably choose a one terabyte phone or a
five hundred and twelve gigabyte phone. That would be either
that would be eighty of those or forty of those obviously,
but it's asage American.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, and he's study yeah too.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
So again, if this relationship seems to have started with Celeste,
you know, at such a young age, if in fact
that's accurate or at least what he's being accused of,
this is a lot of it's a lot, you know,
torrid information to sift through.

Speaker 5 (06:57):
Well, you know, at the forty terabytes is probably not
all Sea Salm material. You know, it's probably you know,
surveillance footage maybe from ring cameras of course, the Tesla
Century security cameras. If they got anything off of it,
I'm not even sure. Uh, you know, it's going to
comprise a lot of probably different kinds of media. The

(07:19):
Sea Salm material. I don't know how much you know
it's going to be on that. I think they said
something like thirty terrorbytes though at the beginning of the when.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
That's my recollection as well, it's a pretty massive amount.
It was a By the way, we have Joseph with
us now too. Hi, Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, Josem.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
We didn't want to ignore you as you sat there
this case. I know you've been covering it so closely.

Speaker 5 (07:41):
It came in like a smooth operator just kind of
ye like really just like, yeah, I love.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Southern smooth sailed right in there. Nice Joseph, welcome to
the conversation.

Speaker 7 (07:51):
Hey, thanks for thanks for having me, and.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, yeah, so good to see you.

Speaker 5 (07:57):
I was just explaining how much forty terrible of data
is and I said, it's about one hundred and sixty
you know, two hundred and fifty six gigabytes cell phones.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
So think of it as that.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
And you know Beth Silverman, she's the lead prosecutor for
this case in Los Angeles, and she noted that only
ten terabytes so far have been turned over, you know,
and she said this process could take months to do.
So David in court today he personally agreed to waive

(08:28):
his right to the May twenty sixth hearing update and
the next status conference. Get this, it's not going to
be until June seventeenth. The anticipated pre limb is scheduled
for me or I'm sorry, June twenty ninth. I think
it's probably going to be closer to July or August,
but right now it's scheduled for June twenty ninth.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
This was incredibly unsurprising to me personally. I know, we
had some colleagues that were outside of the control room
and apparently was pretty heated in terms of the journalists
and people that were covering this case. We're really frustrated
by the push, but how could you blame them? I mean,
this is a lot of material to get through. Joseph,
you see this all of the time and can probably

(09:12):
really speak to this digital footprint and the importance of it.

Speaker 8 (09:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (09:17):
Can I take away away? My big takeaway with this
is that I don't recall any case that we have
covered where and I know that they exist. You know,
this is my one little slice of the pie, my
view of the world. But given this, it's amazing to
me these and it's not just him, it's all of

(09:42):
these people in the circle. They document every damn second
of their life.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
On being Yeah, it is.

Speaker 7 (09:53):
The thought of it. You know, body, you were talking
about the volume, because I can't you know, I'm not
all but I understand what you're talking about relative to this.
And when you think about how much it just caught,
I mean costs. Boy, in my mind's in a different place,
how much how much it requires to produce, you know,

(10:17):
just a video of you know, just having a chat,
you know, uh, that sort of thing, and you compile
that day after day after day, and you have to
understand that contained within that dump of stuff, you've got
these bits. You've got these bits of day to day

(10:40):
life that are captured. It can be video, it can
be audio, and anything could lead back to telling the
full story about what happened to Celeste. So it's not
just like downloading all this stuff. It's going through it, man.
I mean, it makes my knees weak when I'm to
think about how much time someone is going to have

(11:03):
to spend. H And certainly you know this defense attorney
and their team, and you know, everybody's gonna they're going
to have to have their own digital people that are
involved in this, and it's going to go bit a bit.
So yeah, I agree, you say in July August, Yeah,
I think I'm out on that limb with your body.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (11:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
Because he was also a streamer, if you remember he was,
he was kind of a gamer, and he did a
lot of twitch streaming, and you know when people were
like sleuthing this before he was arrested, there were a
lot of twitch streams that and clips of Celeste in
his twitch streams. And in one of those twitch streams,
Celeste is sitting there and it looks like they're in

(11:44):
kind of like a kitchen, and Celeste has like a
hoodie on.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
She looks super cery.

Speaker 5 (11:49):
She has like a hoodie on, some glasses really like
big thick glasses, and at towards the end of the stream,
they're kind of talking and she says, you want me
to tell everybody how you are kids and rape kids,
is what she said, and David kind of smiled and
said okay. In the stream and the stream, you know,
it seemed like they were kind of joking around. And

(12:10):
if you didn't know Celeste was fourteen at the time,
you probably would have been like, ha ha. But she
was fourteen at the time, and it was like almost
a passive aggressive like dig.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
At him a little bit. But those kinds of things.

Speaker 5 (12:24):
Are going to be in this forty terabyte volume, and
because David was a streamer, those the whole collection of
that is probably going to be submitted, I would imagine.
And like, just like Joseph said, somebody's got to sit
there and watch every minute of it and every bit
of the time.

Speaker 7 (12:43):
The world that we exist. And now just think about
this for a second. When when you know, people in
my world walk into a crom scene, right, and I've
been in some that are so very complex, and you
sit there and you photograph it, you measure and you
examine and you collect and secure and all the stuff
that we preach all the time. That is a very

(13:04):
finite amount of data that we're collecting from a physical
sense when you compare it to the digital world. That's
why I've always stated, and this goes beyond simply this case,
is that the new crime scene we carry in our
pocket everywhere we go, everywhere we go, that's the new
That is the new crime scene.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
Final thing at Joseph has been the Internet is a
new crime scene. And I've been saying it for ten years.
The Internet is a new crime scene. And right now
we're carrying the Internet right in our pocket.

Speaker 7 (13:35):
You bet, you bet everything.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, we have to do a digital cleanup, like how
do you even prevent that?

Speaker 3 (13:40):
But at the same time.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
It's really helpful because goodness, if something happened to somebody
you loved, you would be so grateful to have their
digital footprint, to be able to re you know, relook
at their final steps and perhaps give some context to
the last hours of their lives. So it's important stuff,
but it is hard to go.

Speaker 5 (14:01):
We don't even know We don't even know what was
on Celest's phone either, right, good point, so that this
burner you know that she had or maybe she got
her her cell phone back from her parents. I don't know,
but you know he select David apparently allegedly paid this
kid one thousand dollars to give celest a cell phone
when she was at school because her parents took her

(14:23):
phone away. That's how predatory he was. He drove two
hours to her junior high school and paid one of
his class her class meets, one thousand dollars to give
her a burner phone.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Well, I don't know what it's on that phone.

Speaker 7 (14:36):
There are one more group in here too, all these
people and again my my s body senses are tingling
with this. All of these people that are in this circle.
I wonder how many of them were compelled to surrender
their phones, because there have been a lot of videos
that did not originate from his phone or her phone

(14:56):
that are floating around out there. I've seen some of them,
and that is evidence. And I really wonder if any
of these people have been compelled to surrender their phone.
Have we heard about that? No, not to this point,
but that's a big bit to this as well.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
No, you're and Joseph, you're gonna stick with us too.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
You're gonna stick with us because I kind of want
to finish a couple of points in the David case
as well, because it is so incredibly grisly and Joseph,
we haven't really had or at least I haven't since
I've been back at the benefit of just talking anything
top line that we should be looking out for as
this as this trial gets underway.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Oh and Courtney Armstrong, look at you, she's here. Everybody.
All right, court welcome to the convo.

Speaker 5 (15:40):
Well, stick around when we come back, we're going to
continue the conversation and finish up our thoughts on the
David case and missing woman Lynette hook or sailboat is
now under federal guard.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
Keep it right here at your Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and body move in and look it's Tuesday.
So we have Joseph Scott Morgan, our very favorite forensics
expert here with us tonight, host of the hit podcast
Body Bags. Also you can catch his YouTube channel as well.

(16:21):
Joseph is knee deepen in our latest TV star here
and about so yeah, this new development and we can
talk about this maybe later in the week, but just
to put a top on the David case, there was
some audio that came out this morning that Joseph you
were speaking about on the Nancy Grace Show, just basically
about Neo, which is, you know, technically somebody who has

(16:44):
been spoken to.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
By the grand jury.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
This is Neo's allegedly the singer David, the pop star's
best friend.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
And the audio what was the meat and potatoes of that.

Speaker 7 (16:56):
Okay, I'll be very very broad strokes here. I'll put
it to this way. You need to dig into this
because it is disgusting. So this is from an old
twit stream apparently you've got I'll set the scene. You've
got these two young ladies that are applying makeup and

(17:16):
everything in the mirror. You don't see the other people,
but you can hear them on and they're taping one another.
They're going about putting glitter on in all sort of
stuff that I know nothing about. But you can hear
conversation going on in the background, and this conversation involves
the less and it's very There's one comment in particular

(17:41):
in the midst of this that is shocking. It is
a shocking as anything that I have heard to date
in this investigation, and would I would urge everybody to
listen to this, but also take it with a grain
of salt, because as we know, we live in an
ai world, so you have to get that benefit of

(18:03):
the doubt. But just hearing that today, uh, it kind
of set me back a bit. I got to tell you. Uh.
And again, as I was saying earlier, it's not it's
it is about the accused, but it is about it's

(18:23):
about everybody that's on the periphery. And forgive me, I
can't remember her name. I think her first thing is Kitty,
the young woman. You remember the young woman up in
New York back in the fifties that was that was
screaming for a life outside of the apartment complex and
no one came to help her. Yeah that it absolutely

(18:45):
This breaks my heart because that that's kind of what
I drew from it. It was one of those moments.
So uh, might turn out to be nothing, but I
gotta tell you something.

Speaker 5 (18:57):
Yeah, I fall on the stream and I'll watch it
tonight and maybe we'll have something to talk about tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
But I have I have the clip. Yeah, we'll dig
into that. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Joseph and then also the Bahamas body. There's so much
happening with that, with this boat being brought into custody
by federal agents.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah, the boat was seized.

Speaker 5 (19:18):
The investigation into you know, the American woman, Lynnette Hooker,
her disappearance in the Bahamas, it's now transitioned from a
search and rescue to the US federal a US federal
criminal probe following the Coastguard seizure of that sail boat
owned by her and her husband, Brian Hooker. Brian Hooker

(19:40):
maintains that his wife, Lynette Hooker disappeared during an accident
in which she fell off the boat with the key,
leaving him kind of paddling for eight hours to seek help. However,
Brian Hooker's history of domestic you know, volatility has drawn
intense scrutiny, including from his own stepdaughter, which is you know,
of course, his wife daughter. The Coast Guard Investigative Service

(20:03):
is now conducting a forensic analysis on the vessel while
searching while still seeking a witness from the sailboat that
was nearby. More, what is do you know anything about
the forensic service for the Coast Guard?

Speaker 7 (20:17):
Just so you know, early on I was barking about,
I was really hoping that our friends and the FBI
were going to yeah, because we have agents in all
of these various countries, right, I was really hoping they
were going to go down there and make sure this
thing stayed secured. That was that was at top of
my list, all right, I hope that it was. Because
we don't this is in a foreign country. We don't

(20:41):
know what the level of security is relative to this vessel.
So back to the investigative service of the Coast Guard.
So folks understand, Coastguard is only part of the military,
truly part of the military in time of war, Okay,
but they fall under homeland security. They have wide and
broad ranging investigative Okay, so they have and correct me

(21:03):
if I'm wrong. I can't remember. It's Saint Petersburg. I
can't remember. They were towing this vessel back there, and
it will be more there. Now, what can they do
with it, Well, it's gonna be very important that they
get it to a safe secure area. A marina is
not a safe secure area. Even a safe harbor at
a Coastguard station is not safe in the sense of

(21:25):
protecting the elements contained therein They need to dry dock
this thing. They need to get it onto the back
of a transfer truck, take it to a hangar and
lock this damn thing down. What could they find, Well,
any number of things. This is not a tiny, tiny
sail boat. This is not something like you're going to
go on the pond and see somebody bounce around. This

(21:47):
is going to have like I don't know if it'll
actually have like a regular salon as they call it.
You know, it'll have a big central area down there.
There'll be a galley, a small galley, and there'll be
birthing quarters. They'll be ahead all that sort of stuff.
But it's not tiny, and so there's any number of
areas where you can look within the vessel. And so

(22:10):
they're going to be looking for any kind of trace evidence,
anything in there that's busted or broken railings, chairs.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Like signs of a struggle, right.

Speaker 7 (22:20):
Signs of a struggle. And then then is there anything
that we cannot see with the unaided eye. The first
thing I'm thinking about is any kind of imagery involving
unseen blood? Was there an attempt to clean up? Is
there a remnant of blood? So there you go, But.

Speaker 9 (22:34):
Isn't there also an issue with the chain of custody
at this point. Yeah, I mean it seems like an
unsurmountable issue in a court of law, now.

Speaker 7 (22:46):
Yeah, and I think that that's a bridge that they
will have to They're going to have to cook cross
if they find anything of value here, because if not,
it's a mood point. And you know, court to your point,
you know, that's that's one of the reasons security is
critical here. You know, I don't no one knows, you know,

(23:07):
who had access to that area during that and I
can't even tell you off the top of my head.
We've been covering so many cases. I don't know how many
weeks in we are now, but it's several. So you
have any number of you have volume of time now
that could have passed where things are going to be degraded.
My god, the rainstorms, you know, just on the outer deck,

(23:30):
you know that wash things away. People come curious onlookers.
How many cases have we covered where citizens are just
walking around? I don't know the initials are Nancy Guthrie,
where they actually walk onto the property. You know, just
think about that. And now we're in a foreign country.
Now we're bringing it across you know, open sea, and

(23:50):
now try to get processed.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
It's but the.

Speaker 7 (23:53):
Most important thing though is to first you've got to
start off by securing this thing and seeing if there's
anything of value that Just.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
To answer your question, when Nett Hooker went missing on
April fourth and the boat was seized.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
On May ninth, so just over a month, yeah, just
over a month.

Speaker 7 (24:11):
A lot of stuff.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
So there's going to be a lot to go through.

Speaker 5 (24:14):
Maybe even the sailboat, I don't know if it has
like telemetry or on board electronics that might contradict the timeline.
I'm not really sure, but you know, maybe maybe they'll
be able to get something from that they do want.

Speaker 7 (24:28):
I can tell you our friends in the coasties, those guys,
they know what they're doing, they know how every vessel operates,
and they are at the top of their game, and
they will they will understand all of all of the
guts of that and how this vessel operates, and they'll
be able to They'll be able to capture anything electronic
off this thing. I'm sure, I have no doubt.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
Well, for now, the vessel is docked under heavy guard
at the Fort Pierce Coast Guard Station in Florida, so
we will keep everybody updated on what they find. Well, Joseph,
thank you so much for joining us and helping us
understand this really scary topic. Anyone who wants more of Joseph,
and please who doesn't, you can find him on Instagram,
YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Look for body

(25:11):
Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
We are excited because there's so much to get to.
We're also going to have a handwriting expert who's going
to examine live for us the alleged Jeffrey Epstein's suicide
note that was just found. And the timing couldn't be
more significant because there was such a big day.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Today in West Palm Beach.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein really came forward and put it
all on the line. And I gotta tell you you
have to go watch any of the footage if you
haven't had a chance. It's compelling, beyond measure. Courtney, do
you want to fill us in? There was, like you said,
there was so much that happened, and the House Oversight
Committee Democrats got together and it was an unofficial what

(25:55):
they called a shadow field hearing when it was all
to investigate the failures of the Jeffrey Epstein case. So
the leader of the group is a ranking member, Robert Garcia,
and this hearing focused on that two thousand and eight
two thousand and nine sweetheart deal broker by Alex Costa
in Palm Beach County, where Jeffrey Ebstein was allowed to

(26:20):
just sleep in prison and go out and live the
rest of his life. And by the way, she says,
he had political favor from everybody under the sun. So
it appears that all of his fancy elite friends potentially
pulled a few spirit strings for him, so that a
pedophile or a sex offender, by his own admission, didn't
even have to be in jail during the day.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Unbelievable, exactly.

Speaker 9 (26:43):
Yes, well, and there was a really powerful witness. She
went just by Rosa, and she testified that she was
hard to hear. She was raped by Jeffrey Ebstein over
the course of a three year period, and this is
while he was supposed to be under house arrest, thank
you back during that time. And this woman, she criticized

(27:04):
the DOJ rightfully for releasing files that named her not
once or twice, but five hundred times. In the meanwhile
redacting all the names of the perpetrators.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Stop, it's like the redactions work.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, No, she didn't want her name out there. Yeah,
she was trying to prevent that from happening. And this
was one of the names that was released not just once,
but hundreds and hundreds of times. You know, this incredibly
traumatic event that happened to her while Jeffrey Epstein was
supposed to be locked up because he pled guilty, by
the way, and instead alex Acosta, as Courtney just laid

(27:41):
out so perfectly like let that slide somehow, So her
trauma is on their hands.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
And enough of this, Like.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
When have you ever heard of a person coming and
going from jail other than Elaine Maxwell at the SPA Right.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
No, right, it's insane.

Speaker 9 (27:58):
And then here are a few other and just for time,
well we'll truncate, but a women named Courtney Wilde. She
discussed just the calculated nature of Ebstein and how he
would prey on children from troubled backgrounds, and Courtney Wilde
called for specific legislative repairs to the Crime Victims' Rights
Act and speaking of rights being violated, another woman, Jenna

(28:22):
Lisa Jones, she talked about the absolutely permanent weight of
the abuse. And she noted that survivors are being googled
by employers everyone and googles everybody, and then their trauma
ends up being a permanent barrier to employment.

Speaker 5 (28:37):
Oh so they're applying for jobs, and you know, of
course they're doing like their little social media checks on
these people, and they're seeing that they're a victim and.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
They're not getting high. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, because again it's like death by association to some degree.
And keep in mind, it's not as though the reactions
are hard to figure out, given that so many of
the information in the Epstein files is redacted, including so
many of the perpetrator's names.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
How is it possible that we have had so.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Many people take the stand and go before the House
Oversight Committee, and yet still nothing has actually happened. It's
almost as though we're just supposed to be so fatigued
by this and we're all emotionally paralyzed a little bit.
It's kind of shocking, and this kind of reset the
table for me yet again, even just listening to it.
I really encourage everybody to pay their respect to the

(29:30):
victims who are.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Getting such little respect.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
They've come out for years, their stories have been backed
up not only by each other, but in these files
as well, corroborated in many nefarious ways.

Speaker 9 (29:42):
Enough enough so, Spencer Couven he was an attorney who spoke,
and he described this two thousand and eight really non
prosecution agreement, called it the worst ever, which I thought
was excellent age. He called it the worst ever executed
by US attorneyferring to Acosta, and this attorney's allegation is

(30:03):
that federal and state officials colluded to intentionally bypass the
Crime Victims' Rights Act. That should be looked into, like
that makes looked into, though to what end?

Speaker 2 (30:15):
How much more looking do we have to do into
any of it? It's like, honestly, it's attack on any
woman or man period. I think it's a way of
numbing us to just the idea that, hey, everybody, speak up,
we want to hear about all of these terrible things
that have happened. This is an example of real horrible
treatment against children. And you know, we're kind of laughing

(30:37):
about it. It's being kind of trivialized even and again,
I love a sense of humor and I love a roast,
but I'm even seeing Kevin Hart and the Roast.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
You know, it's being tossed around now in.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Pop culture with a giggle and a laugh, and I
think that's something that's really dangerous. Victims have to be heard,
but not just heard as in the air. There needs
to be some level of accountability that applies to any
part of our lives. And the fact that it's being
so swept under the rug is I can't wrap my
head around it.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
And I don't even know the answer.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
So who's you know, it's a systemic issue, and I
think the banks should be held accountable. I'd like to
rephrase actually before we even go person to person. I
think the banks that have looked the other way why
people can't afford housing while people's having their husbands and
wives being sent overseas to serve our country, but they
can't buy a house.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
They can't. You know, the price of meat is sow up.
I mean, it's tough out there.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Let's ask the banks why these millions and millions and
millions of dollars in hush moneys, et cetera has been spent?

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Is there better way to use that money?

Speaker 9 (31:44):
Well, that's also something that was called for that came
up today is exactly that. Some of the legislative goals
include not only fixing the Crime Victims' Rights Act, to
include sanctions for prosecutors who fail to consult victims, be huge,
so that they have to be accountable to their jobs
that they, you know, took the oath of office. Also

(32:06):
eliminating prostitution charges from the books, because what that does,
is it they want to do that to prevent traffickers
from using it as a threat of arrest against the victims.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Great so, so potential traffickers or traffickers themselves are using
it as like blackmail. Correct Is that saying that?

Speaker 5 (32:27):
So they want to say, remove it so that they
can't use that as leverage or compromont basically against the victim.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Correct. That's very sting. Yeah, that is very interesting.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
And by the way, guys, you know, it's bad enough
that we're not able to look backwards and corroborate some
of these stories. You know, Virginia Gufrey's family was there,
her brother, who you know, has really brought into question
even her suicide.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
You'll remember she was the main.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Victim who really stepped forward to you know, raise her
hand endlessly. All of these women have been and really
tossed to the side. They've been basically callously ignored despite
the fact that their stories have been coroborated. So what
is that saying, as an in general to anybody who's
going to step forward tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Why would they? And you have to.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Assume that this machine, that is that sophisticated, that this
many people could get away with it for as long
as they could, for as many generations and as many
administrations as they have. This is not about one, it's
about all. In order for that to have happened, why
do we think for a second that it's not still
going on real time?

Speaker 9 (33:34):
Absolutely? I mean, I don't think there's a question that
the machine is not broken at all. There is no
machine exactly. It's working as is. We're even aware of it,
and it's working as is, and it's infuriating. Another thing
this hearing did do is call for a full release
of all suspicious activity reports from banks. So that's one thing,

(33:59):
And apparently this is from ranking member Garcia, So they
revealed that the House Oversight Democrats are indeed releasing a
new report that does detail these bank records and show
how that two thousand and eight deal allowed Epstein to
get richer himself and expand trafficking network while he was

(34:20):
supposed to be serving time.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
Let me ask you.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Guys, because again I don't want to slant this, Do
you guys think there is a cover up here?

Speaker 3 (34:28):
Absolutely? Of course, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (34:30):
Don't think there's a question. I just don't know who
can be prosecuted for it. That's my whole thing. Who
gets prosecuted for this, Who gets put in handcuffs?

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Who?

Speaker 5 (34:40):
Right, I don't know who that is. Who can they
successfully prosecute for this? It's unbelievable to me. Again, and
just the ring of it all. If we're talking about
modeling agencies and you know pageants and you know school books,
you know Gilain Maxwell. There's reports that anybody who's ever
complain about the fact that she's getting treated like a

(35:02):
princess behind bars, you know, having time with puppies and
having access to a xerox machine and you know, some
special treatment she's being treated, well, anybody that's complained about that,
or maybe not anybody, but there has been a report
that several of them have really faced consequences in jail
for trying to speak up.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
One of them was even.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Transferred to a different location because they spoke up behind
closed doors. It's like, you can't fight the machine if
the machine is being written by the same people who
are breaking down the machine. It's like we're in this
loop and you know, I think we're kind of all
waking up. But even that's very disorienting.

Speaker 9 (35:41):
Another issue that was explored had to do with immigration
and how that comes into play, and so.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Of course, of course, because they're vulnerable.

Speaker 9 (35:51):
Yeah yeah, right, yeah, So Representative Frost was speaking with
one of the survivors, Rosa, and it was regarding her
move to the US for modeling. Again, this is the
find Epstein should have been locked up. He was raping her,
and the argument is that Epstein successfully exploited what they
called a broken immigration system in order to facilitate and

(36:13):
broaden his sex trafficking ring.

Speaker 5 (36:16):
I mean, we've seen this countless times that he would
take their passports and use these visas to get them
over and then once they were here, they were trapped
and under his control because he would take their passports
and whatnot. And of course they're tied to the modeling
operation which is involved as well.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
On top of it, exactly everyone's getting kickbacks and again
to what end? Why is this some sort of a
worldwide operation that seems to be really praying on young girls?
I mean to the extent that it's hard to It's
like seeing things now in color when you've always seen
it in black and white. It can't unsee it, and
I can't always connect the final dot. But I think

(36:53):
we're so kind of being thrown so much detail right
now in information that we're almost like forgetting the lead.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
We're like forgetting the plot.

Speaker 8 (37:01):
Here.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
So many women are like raising their hands saying please, please, please.
How many women are out there right now who are
in the exact same circumstance and we're even aware of it,
and no one's looking back like it has to get better,
and like the main players were just like marching them
in and like, ooh, that was, you know, interesting, But
legitimately nothing happens yet, you know. In the Passport, thank

(37:25):
Elaine Maxwell her own passport.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
She's very fancy well.

Speaker 5 (37:28):
Coming up at the top of the hour, a newly
unsealed Epstein note, the suicide note. It's raising a lot
of disturbing questions, and handwriting expert Art Baggett joins us
to break it all down keep it right here at
True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lei Decker here
with Courtney Armstrong. Body move in and listen. I have
to say I am very, very interested and curious about
the findings of our upcoming handwriting for Reckensis expert Bart
Baggett is here. He's been doing press everywhere discussing this

(38:15):
very topic. Obviously, the suicide note is kind of on
all of our minds and it would be a real
context setter. None of us know the answers here. But Courtney,
do you want to give us a little setup?

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Hi?

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Bart?

Speaker 9 (38:28):
Yes, this is We have been like tittering all day
and texting at each other.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Because yeah, so.

Speaker 9 (38:35):
As Stephanie said, Bart Baggett is one of the country's
best known forensic handwriting experts. He is a court qualified
expert witness, an author, and a founder of a school
that trains forensic document examiners. So smart and Bart is
also I know, worked on major forgery and authentication cases

(38:56):
all across the country and the cherry on top of
this impressive Sunday Bart is also the creator of handwriting
Wizard AI software.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Oh welcome, We're so excited.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Oh how about the fact that no one's learning handwriting anymore?

Speaker 4 (39:12):
Bart?

Speaker 3 (39:12):
In school?

Speaker 8 (39:13):
It's going to kill my business.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
I yeah, you better, you're count in the days. We
got to figure this out.

Speaker 8 (39:19):
I got to put the money away now before they
stop teaching kids how to write. Maybe disaster in twenty years.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
We wait on it, man, but it is a singing ship. Welcome.
We're so glad you're here.

Speaker 9 (39:32):
So the reason we have Bart is we really want
to dig into it was in case you're catching up
on this, there was a newly unsealed note. It's allegedly
written by Jeffrey Epstein before his death, and it's raising
a lot of questions, not just about what the note says,
but whether the handwriting itself can reveal anything about Epstein's
state of mind. And the note came to light through

(39:57):
Epstein's former cellmate, which is a little sus to me,
but anyway, that's how it came to light. And here
we are and Bert, for listeners who are just hearing
about your work in general for the first time, What
exactly does a Friensic handwriting expert do? What are you
looking for when you analyze handwritten notes?

Speaker 8 (40:17):
Great question, and most people confuse handwritting expert with either
a graphologist, which is just personality, or the guy who
shows up at the murder trial and says, hey, he
has a ransom note. And so I happen to do
a little bit of both. But all the real substance
in forensics is when we look at a will and
testament or a note like this and say, okay, I
can identify the one human being on the planet that

(40:39):
wrote that, or I know it's forged. And so that's
a really valuable skill in criminal cases, in civil cases,
in private cases. And so that's the main job. The
other part of it is, since I've been studying this
since I was fourteen, I learned that handwriting is physiology,
it's neurology. You can't fake it. Hard for me to

(41:00):
write like you and you like her, et cetera. And
so sometimes personality traits are so overwhelming they come through
screaming like a light detector deaths sometimes. And so I'm
also very good at picking out certain personality traits such
as moods and tie self esteem and paranoia and fear.
So I think handwriting is just a brilliant projection of
our physiology. And I've spent most of my life teaching

(41:21):
and training and learning.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
Okay, I just had to say we were going to
submit our handwriting, and I didn't. I didn't have time.
I'm so glad I didn't because I'm not going to
be under the microscope now.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
God, I'm very exciting.

Speaker 5 (41:33):
But when you first examined this Epstein, these alleged Epstein
suicide note, what immediately stood out to you from a
forensic handwriting perspective.

Speaker 8 (41:42):
Yeah, so this story was quickly evolving, as a lot
of these crime news stories are. So one of the
challenges that we had was even getting a hold of
Epstein's reliable handwriting. I mean, there's ten thousand documents and
most of them redacted. So as I started talking to
the different reporters, we kind of narrowed down these two
notes were allegedly founded in sale that are part of it.
Now we believe that they were founded a sell. And

(42:04):
my question was, you know, did the person that wrote
Note A write Note B because there's not a lot
of that's really important. And then the second question is
is that writer the same writer that's found in Epstein's notebooks,
and so it's kind of a two part analysis, and
so very quickly, I, as well as two other respected
Henry experts, decided that the writing was indeed the same writer.

(42:25):
So somebody wrote both of these notes very expectaneously, very easily.
There's no signs of forgery, no tremors. I mean, I've
seen notes for people before they off themselves. I've seen
all kinds of notes. These are very naturally written, so
nothing about it screamed, oh this was trace, this was curved.
One of the girls on the show that I said,
oh it's easy to forge. Now it's not easy to forge,

(42:48):
just not at all. A piece of paper and a
pen noe. So these are definitely from the same writer.
I know that, and based on what I've seen of
what I think to be Epstein's, they do seem to
be in his pen. And this really makes a lot
of people mad because they want to believe that the
writing means he did or did not kill himself. But
I think they're unrelated, So it's not like just because

(43:08):
they were they're mad at me, Like, I can't believe
he said there's authentic. You're terrible. He must being paid
off by bullbar like no, I'm just doing my job.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
By Bill bo I was wrong. I was wrong, by
the way, so I listen.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
I think it's interesting context though, So this does speak
to Jeffrey Epstein's headspace, which seems like it was frantic
and can you read the emotion into this part.

Speaker 8 (43:31):
Yeah, I think frantic is a great word. I think
important to know that there should be a baseline. So
if I had writing of when he was at his prime,
we could contrast and say, oh, he's that he's depressed.
But I've seen a lot of people's writing that did
actually take their life. And this is not a depressed person.
This is not someone who's who's out of energy, who's
the end of life. This is enthusiastic. He has vanity,

(43:53):
he has pride, he's got all these explanation points which
you might consider anger, but he's even has a sense
of you or with the words, you know, he's got
that phrase what you want to do about it? You know,
crying Like there's a lot of him in there, and
a lot of things that obviously people don't like about him,
but remember he was a successful guy. So when you
see things like self esteem is good or he's got enthusiasm,

(44:16):
or he's got pride and self respect. These are things
that I would expect for someone that's a multi millionaire,
not to.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Mention he was so charismatic and convincing everybody in his path,
which was the wake by which is like, you know,
thousands of people at this point, the victims. Yeah, you know,
he's he's that guy that can kind of you know,
sucker you in allegedly.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Mm and the bart do you I'm stunned. I'm stunned.

Speaker 8 (44:44):
He's donned.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
What an interesting tell though, See listen, we're collecting all
the clues right now. This is a very important piece
of the puzzle. So again, if those are separate events,
is it possible that both things can be true? This
is not his suicide note, say, but it is also
an authentic note that was written by him. And you know,

(45:06):
if they're unrelated, then what is the point of this note?

Speaker 8 (45:11):
Well, I do think that some context could be understood,
because nobody really framed it for me very quickly. In
the last three days. There's this cell mate that he
was in with a while and it ended up in
a book that salemate got moved away. He went to
the private ward, and so then he got caught up
in a four felony murder trial for like five years.
So his attorney is like, hey, this is gold. I'm

(45:33):
not going to tear this with the public. Maybe this
could help me with my client down the line. So
I think it's totally reasonable that he found it. It's
in a note, I mean a very limited space in
a jail, and then I didn't, of course date, but
you could look at the ink and the stamps and
you could find out when it was written if you
had the equipment for it. Obviously I didn't do that.
So no, I think the story holds true. The question is,

(45:54):
does this note itself mean I'm going to off myself?
I just didn't buy that the content or the person
was ready. I mean, clearly you're going to be sad
and you're going to have some thoughts of it. I
even had the wild idea like maybe he thought he
was going to pretend to do it and then someone's
going to escape. M Like, why would he write that
about the choice of ending it all? But no, I've
never referred to it as the s note. I referred

(46:16):
to it as the prison notes.

Speaker 5 (46:17):
Wow, and then not only write it but then put
it in a book where it wouldn't be found initially, right, Like,
if you're going to write a suicide note, you I
would think you would leave it out in the open
for somebody to find it.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
That's a good note. Put it in a book. I
don't know. I don't know. I just thought it was weird.

Speaker 8 (46:34):
Yeah, generally, when you have actual crime scenes that they're
going to do something, leave a message and then do
that thing, this doesn't fit that. I've had a lot.
It's interesting. I have a lot of clients. Obviously a
lot of civil clients are criminal. But you know, people
are like, hey, I know my kid did not off himself.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
He was murdered.

Speaker 8 (46:50):
And I would say more than once, like three hundred
four times, like, no, your kid was depressed. Your kid
did write that note, you didn't you know, that didn't
mean he didn't get murdered, but he did write the note.
Because their handmery looks so different, Like I saw my
daughter's handerting thet's not my happy girl's handwriting. Well, no,
she was on drugs.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
This is your depressed girl's handwriting. Yeah, So it's.

Speaker 8 (47:09):
Kind of me have to be the bearer of bad
news of like, yeah, the story you want to believe
is this, and that's what's going on here. People want
to believe this one story because he's a bad guy,
Like we can agree as a bad guy, but they
also want to believe there's governments conspiracy, which this note
neither confirms nor denies whether or not that happened.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
That's even more confusing now, so it's almost like it's
two steps forward, two steps back, and we're kind of
in the exact same spot.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Bart, Oh, my brain's going to collapse.

Speaker 9 (47:37):
Oh my gosh if you do not allow that to happen.
And if you're just joining us, this is true crime tonight.
And we're so excited to be joined by Bart Baggett.
And he is just one of the country's absolute best
known friends of handwriting experts and court qualified expert witness
and very fancy and knows everything there is to know
about handwriting analysis. I have a question, how hard is

(48:02):
it to convincingly fake someone else's handwriting? Or actually you
already said that's hard, Like why is that hard? If
I were to take my time or.

Speaker 8 (48:12):
I'll give you some I'll give you some data, so
we don't have a pricess So we have a school
called the International School of Forensics. We train people all
over the world, some of the working government laboratories, and
it is to cut to your school. So one of
the final semesters, their job is to write a last
will and testament. You need to convince me, the teacher,
that that's really a will and testament. And so we
have samples of people's writings and every student throughout the

(48:35):
last twenty years has chosen to type it and only
do the signature. And I said, guys, I told you
to write a will. They said, we tried. We all tried.
It was too hard to copy the entire thing, absolutely
too hard in that person's writing. But they did a
very good job on this signature alone, if it was

(48:56):
a short name. So I'm saying, we've had hundreds of
students trying, and I can just tell you, holographic wills
are our easiest. Hey, easy eight grant, thank you very much.
Like that is an easy assignment because you have so
many points of data and there's so much neurological evidence
from the penstuations to the ink to the hesitations. If
you give me a microscope and you know, twenty minutes,
I'll know if that person wrote it, but other cases

(49:18):
it could take you know, twenty hours. That's the problem.

Speaker 5 (49:21):
This is a crazy It's incredible, this might take a
few minutes. I'm going to ask it now because I'm
dying for this answer.

Speaker 4 (49:29):
Part.

Speaker 5 (49:29):
Before the show, you analyzed Stephanie and Courtney's handwriting. What
stood out to you and what did you think their
handwriting revealed about their personalities?

Speaker 3 (49:39):
I'm no secrets. Part.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
We are wide over there, so we should tell that
Bart that said what one person was crazy?

Speaker 3 (49:45):
What if the two of us is insane? I think
in the break so.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Let's all just you know, recognize that I hear you.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
I don't think so, Stephanie.

Speaker 8 (49:55):
I tell you hard to believe that that anybody with
your positions is quote unquote easy, like the homeless guys
on Sunset Blo War Like that's that's they cant's crazy? Well,
what I consider crazy? I think one of my most
popular articles, like the five hell Traits in Handwriting or
hewdiespart crazy is that people are unstable. People are unreliable.
So when you're dating or people that are single, like
you want to avoid people they're gonna throw rocks at

(50:16):
your car and you know, cut your tires like you
want to wear that kind of crazy. So I was
teasing both of you. Don't think either one of you crazy.
And because handwriting isn't taught any more in schools, you
often get people under twenty five years old that just
haven't written in a while. So if you do ask
them to write cursive, which I think Courtney did for me,
it could be a while since she wrote cursive. And
it's like riding a bike or Ice skiddy after a

(50:36):
long break. So I'm not really judging the symmetry or
the beauty of it because it's not pretty like Stephanie's
hand is Stephanie? Is that right that I get the right?

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Yes, yes, the crazy one. It's okay, you can say it. No,
you're with your handwriting, it's beautiful.

Speaker 8 (50:51):
Well I'm reading and it looks like Steven, and I
was like, I swear your name is Stephanie's Weepanie. Beautiful handwriting,
beautiful handwriting. But again, the beauty is not Ayah's what
we're talking about. So really talking about certain individual micro
movements would indicate a certain fear or a certain reluctance,
or certain personality types. So Courtney, you want to go. First,

(51:11):
let me just throw some traits at you so you
can listen and respond. Because you have such big loops
in the DNT, it means you're extra sensitive to personal criticism,
and that sensitivity can be defended by two things. Sarcasm,
which is hilarious, I love it, some of my favorite
defense mechanisms, or stubbornness, which is like, hey, I don't

(51:34):
need you, I don't want to hear any things. You
also can be secretive, you can be evasive. You can
just absolutely not tell people what you're really thinking, whereas
Stephanie is too blunt. She tells people exactly what she's thinking, Like,
I don't tell her a secret, Like I'm sure she
could keep one, but it's not your favorite. Yeah, you're

(51:56):
just so transparent and honest, and I love that about her.
And so it's not that you're completely not that one
person is better than the other. It's that there are
different traits Courtney high complement one another.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
That's a good question because in my experience, you know,
speaking for on behalf of someone who hangs with Courtney,
she is such an open book, Like you're a very
open book, Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Generally speaking, I think, don't you think? Or maybe you
don't know.

Speaker 9 (52:28):
Maybe maybe Bart is you know ten years.

Speaker 8 (52:31):
But don't confuse bubbly nurturing outgoing with not secretive. If
she has a secret, she has private life secrets you
don't know about. That's what I'm saying. Anyway, good self,
esteeve on both of you, guys. I will tell you
I did make some interesting notes. Stephanie. Your I dots

(52:52):
are so close to the stem. It indicates you have
an exquisite eye for detail. That has got to be tualities,
especially in this crime genre. For sure, get a little
bit of a defiant streak going. Anyway, I pronounce you
all in good mental health. If you want to, we
have another segment.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
I hope right we do.

Speaker 9 (53:10):
Yeah, so everybody, Yes, everybody stick around. Fart Baggott is
going to be sticking with us, and we're going to
get back into forensic handwriting analysis, talk a little bit
more about Epstein. Keep it here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm staff here with
Courtney and Body and listen, we have Bart Baggett here.
He is breaking some really hot information, and we want
to break it down quickly.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
The note, the infamous suicide note that has appeared, you
know in recent days, we just had it analyze. It's
been widely debated. Is it a suicide note? Was it
proof that, in fact he did take his own life
in the cell despite many saying that the autopsy didn't
really reinforce that, Or.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yeah, was this guy at the end of the rope
and like this is enough is enough?

Speaker 2 (54:13):
He wanted to be out of here. He's in a cruddy,
creuddy prison. We know those conditions were brutal, and maybe
this is just proof that, yeah, in fact, he took
his own life. It turns out it's a little bit
of both. Bart, So maybe it wasn't a suicide note,
but also it wasn't at the same time, but it

(54:33):
is actually authentic.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
And Bart does.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
This for a living in ways we cannot describe the
most interesting job imaginable.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
So, ladies, what do you think? So I want to know.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
What's that?

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Yes, it's scary.

Speaker 5 (54:51):
Actually, well you can it knows so much about somebody
from the way they handwrite.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
It's interesting.

Speaker 9 (54:56):
So Bart, like, are there a handwriting red flag something
that would make you question whether or a note was
written naturally versus staged or under duress.

Speaker 8 (55:06):
Yeah, that's entually two. You've conflated two questions. Duress would
be something like someone's tied up in a chair and
they're told to write something that is really hard to identify,
and I think you almost have to have some psychological
training to make that happen. That's not common. What is
common is I think in all the textbooks literally is
like there's five to ten red flags of forgery, and
they're like slow pen lifts. You know, people tracing it's

(55:29):
an art project. They're think about going through some mud
in a bicycle. If you get too slow, the wheel wobbles,
and the pen is the same way. So if you
go too slow, the pen wobbles. And a microscope that's
called a trimmer you may not see with the naked eye.
So if you see all these things strunk together, you're like, well,
that's not a naturally flowing note, and therefore you start

(55:53):
going down the trail of forgery. And that's why it's
the epscene thing. There was none of those quote typical
signs of forgeries, and you say, okay, yeah, but it's
the government. They get the best forges in the world.
I guess maybe, yeah, sure, I haven't seen the original,
but those red flags immediately start me thinking. And unfortunately
a lot of clients don't know those red flags. And
I don't really want to tell everybody my secrets because

(56:13):
I don't want forgers trying to fool me. But under
a microscope, there are things that I can see that
most people can't, and I go, ah, kind of like
a currency bill or a passport with a certain kind
of UV light. I just understand that there's certain things
that are really authentic. And even if you think, oh
my god, this handering is so crazy, it may not
be crazy because fast is fluid, and fluid is hard

(56:33):
to copy, and so either you get it simply correct
and you leave a lot of evidence like slow writing
and touch ups, or you do it really fast and
you make your f backwards so it's really hard to
get it.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
I think I've seen that too.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's funny though, and it's a really good point about
confirmation bias. We were just talking about this also during
the break. Yes, you know, you're right. People have a
narrative myself included, where you assume certain things, and we
have to be very careful, specifically with this case. So
I think it's such important, it's important information. It's a
clue to this puzzle that we're all trying to solve.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Yeah, well, I think bias Please, I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 (57:14):
I think bias is just kind of an interesting thing
with expert witness. I was working on a case in
Lake Havis, Arizona, and they said, oh, the Hanry expert
that works for the police. He always gets the answer
the police want. Nobody respects him, whoever hires him first,
he gets that answer. And I was just so deeply
offended because I probably lost a lot of money because
I didn't have the opinion they wanted. And I don't
get that for four thousand dollars go. So I was like,

(57:35):
oh my god, how can you be so unethical? So
even in my office, I own a cop called handy Experts,
I tell my staff, don't tell me the outcome they want,
keep the narrative, keep the drama away from me. Then
our experts can analyze it without any narrative, without any story,
come with the results, and then they cry or they celebrate.
In this case, half the world's crying because Epstein wrote
the notes.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Yeah, by the way, I will say this, that's so interesting.
And number one, it does make sense because you know
investigations information does get stored away. We talked about this
the other night. So the fact that this note was
in his cell mate's case files. Okay, I still think
the timing is suspicious regardless, So that is my two
cents question. Speaking of suspicious, doesn't our handwriting kind of change?

Speaker 6 (58:20):
You know?

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Is it possible You had mentioned earlier that, oh, that's
a depressed version of a person's handwriting or a happy version.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Is that accurate? Because I do think it's common.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
For people's handwritings to shift over the years.

Speaker 4 (58:34):
Sure.

Speaker 8 (58:34):
A great question, So a very common question, and we
think it changes more than it does. The textbooks pretty
much say if you can get between three and seven
years of a signature, you're in the right. You don't
have to worry about it changing. But if you go
from seventeen years old to eighty four, now you've got
a couple of levels of evolution. Now from zero to
about eighteen, it changes a lot. So it's not very

(58:56):
reliable once it seeks into physiology, and of course, assuming
a kid has written and learned to write those ten
thousand hours of writing class. When it really changes is
with drugs like heroin, cocaine, different drugs, it'll change the physiology.
That's why you can't drive on those things, right. And
then secondly, if you get Alzheimer's or Parkinson's. Interesting study
this came out with an AI about Parkinson's, We as

(59:17):
a handwriting expert community and the medical community was spotting
Parkinson's two in three years before the medical community and
everybody knew that this is a very common knowledge. Handwriting
was a precursor, but now they have AI tools that
can check the handwriting for Parkinson's very quickly. So it's
always been this neurological link that has always been obvious
to me, but some people still see as like magic

(59:39):
or hocus focus, and it's not. And then finally, the
last party question. As people get toward the end of
their life with all kinds of health diseases, they're handwriting
shakes just like their body shakes. So if your grandmother's
walking and barely walk, you can probably barely write. That
makes my job harder. And of course that's the majority
of the last towel and testaments because a lot of
people live a full life and then at the last
hour decide to give everything to their their housekeeper.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
That's the question convenient.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
And I had also heard that if people write with
a left slant that means that they're cheap.

Speaker 8 (01:00:12):
It does not mean they're cheap. Michael Jackson notoriously writed
with a leftward slant, and it means he had some
psychological abuse and introversion that he couldn't cope with, so
he's emotionally stunted. So people that right leftward have emotional
I have empathy for them, but they're not going to
be warm and like you guys, and friendly and nurturing.

(01:00:35):
The world isn't safe for them. So the withdrawal is
the way. So if you had abused child, they can't
fight back, are too tiny, they have to withdraw, and
so literally they're handwriting withdrawals. The balance people have pretty
much a moderate to right word slam.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Remember the bubble letters, ladies, and when he used to
write like Buffalo did.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
You guys who says trace your ideas?

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
I hate to say this, but back in high school
when you wanted to get to the go into the.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
Bar, I was an angel and I never did. It
was a low key We did it at home. It
was very common.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Sorry, mom, but you know we would have to chalk
or IDs.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
But what what are like some things that people online
usually get wrong when trying to analyze handwriting themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
I obviously got this wrong. What what? What do people
amateurs usually get wrong?

Speaker 8 (01:01:24):
I think I think you're trying to put on the
forgery hat is. They want to follow along because he
is on Miami with the with the shows. They end
up just taking one letter and waiting it wrong, like, oh,
the J is the same, so it must be the
same writer. Oh I found this D, which, by the way,
there is a D in Epstein's Old Old and it's
not in any other handwriting, so that one difference means

(01:01:45):
he didn't write it. So right, They don't have the
ability to weigh what's significant and what's not. And then
they also with the rise, they put too much emphasis
on the form of the letter. But there's only a
few ways to make an A. There's only a few
ways to make a D. So it's really not one symbol.
It's the it's the speed, it's the connections, it's the
flow of the ink, it's the margins. There's all these

(01:02:08):
other things which you wouldn't catch, but man, that g
is the same, so he definitely wrote it. I know
my grandmother would not leave my will. She loved me
more than That's that you get some crazy talk because
you see one thing and they convince themselves it's true,
but it's not.

Speaker 5 (01:02:23):
I spend a lot of time on Reddit in the
Jambinet forums, and you don't have to say anything about this,
but that is very much focused on one specific letter
in the ransom note in like the Jambe ransom. So
you're one hundred percent spot on, and I even caught
myself doing it, so yes, thank you for that. But listen,
I want to shift for just a moment and get

(01:02:45):
back to this analysis of my friends.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Okaya, listen, I don't want to focus on me the
two What else did you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
I would like guess exactly when QUI ask questions about it?

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Yeah, yeah, hear the expire, let's hear.

Speaker 8 (01:03:05):
There's two traits I didn't say about Stephanie yet, but
I kind of held them because they're really interesting and
they're probably nuanced enough to go into. One of them
I mentioned to I for detail, which is tremendous. The
other one is persistence, which is a sign of someone
who does not give up when they hit resistance or failure.
Wonderful quality like that. Determination persistence is by far the

(01:03:27):
thing that most successful people have, but the one thing
that surprised me. And remember, you do follow rules, you're
elegant all that, but you have what they call in
our books, my book specifically the go to hell K.
And this is why I wroach. I had you write
the word monkey because the K is exceptionally large, and

(01:03:49):
so the technical word is defiance, the innate response to authority.
Her feathers get ruffled, she gets big, she puffs up,
and she's not going to take it. And it's probably
has to do with one of your printal figures and
you're like, uh, I'm a grown woman now, I'm not
going to be So it's just so if you see them,
so it's defined. So I think you have to be

(01:04:12):
in charge or at least not be the under the
thumb of a dominating manager. I think you're not going
to be happy that way.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Interesting saying we all work in true crime, so that
you have to sort of be a professional pest, right
the answers always know and like there's people just you know,
they get left behind. The victims are people are needing
information too, So I mean that's hopefully I.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Can speak to the question saying you're very persistent, like
all of the things, all the things you said, Bart.

Speaker 8 (01:04:46):
I love defiance. I have defiance. My girlfriend, she's a
classical pianist, she has defiance. They were laughing because no
one will look at us and go oh, they don't
have tattoos, they have normal jobs. But there is an
innate desire to bake things right, to just to create,
just sort of to fight back. And so without rebels,
you wouldn't have America. We said, England, go away, Like

(01:05:07):
there's a sort of beauty to being defiant. But the
problem with me and New Sevity is we' don't always
control when our feathers come out. Someone pushes our button
and we're like, okay, now I gotta fight. That's what
you have to dial it back and go okay, okay,
I'm a groan, a built and I don't have to
be defined.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
We're not gonna take it anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:05:24):
We only have a few minutes left, but I'm dying
to know what are there any phase fascinating cases that
you've been involved with that you want to leave us with, Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:05:34):
I mean there's a ton if you go to the
YouTube channel. I talk about in depth some of the
cases there at the Handwriting Expert YouTube channel. But I
will say that all the ones that are most fascinating
involve crime or some of these famous stories at the Jambina.
But some of the ones that pull my heart are
the ones where somebody wins their house back and their
mom's car back, like some of these things where they're
just trying to get wrobbed, and that really moves me.

(01:05:56):
But I'll leave you with the Jambinet. So my mentor
Philis Madden, and they worked in Colorado, and so she
was the Henry expert that was first called to the
scene thirty years ago, and so I had this backseat
sort of front road knowledge of like what's going on
in those cases. And so years later she had passed away.
Of course, that is the biggest story of nineteen ninety
six fight. I means, I was on a three day

(01:06:17):
world win and ended up sitting across from Larry King,
a CNN you know, on the biggest show in the
world at the time, and I'm talking about this ransom note.
And they had got this guy named John Mark Carr,
and they had the same situations.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
That thing.

Speaker 8 (01:06:30):
They're like, if he wrote the note, then he must
have murdered the child, which actually was not a equals B.
A is, if he wrote the note, he was in
the house, but you don't know if he murdered the child.
And so everyone had this huge obsession with this note
because if he did that, then he had to do that,
and then it was fascinating. So I did the interview

(01:06:51):
and it was just Brayton. I became the most famous
expert in the world. Blah blah blah. And then about
two days later, I get a call on my facts ligne.
Remember things, all facts lines can't get trace I couldn't
trace it. I can't prove it. I can't You could
tell me I'm a liar and I cannot prove it.
John Mark call calls me and said, how did you know?

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
So?

Speaker 8 (01:07:10):
How'd you know?

Speaker 7 (01:07:10):
What?

Speaker 8 (01:07:11):
How did you know? I'll leave that for the next episode.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Whoa wait, No, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:07:20):
I'm gonna watch that Larry King episode immediately, like when
we're done, I'm gonna find Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
Can we guess? Can we like guess?

Speaker 9 (01:07:27):
This is astound I don't know or I like the cliffhang.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
I think that is well paved.

Speaker 9 (01:07:32):
Myself, and I think we're gonna go back to very soon.

Speaker 8 (01:07:39):
Hey, if you want to find me, I'm at barbak
at dot com. I'd love for you guys to come around.
I've got this cool I just started about crime and forensics.
Go to barbak at dot com. And then if you
want to do the handwriding thing. This is fun. We've
I've been writing books on this for thirty years. We
do a zoom class every month. You know, go to
Handwriting Wizard or Handriding University dot com and do the
hand reading. I can't say it's going to be accurate.
It's AI. It's a new tool, but what the hell

(01:07:59):
take a picture?

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
I want your hand run out.

Speaker 8 (01:08:01):
Yeah, we'll test it out, see how it works. It's
called handwriting Wizard dot com and it's it's does I'm
trying to replace myself?

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
No, no, no, we won't allow for it.

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
We will.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Cool friend start, we're starting a band. We know what
we did a piano player. So finally the band is
coming together. It was so nice to meet you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
It was so great.

Speaker 9 (01:08:24):
We really hope you are back really soon and again yeah,
Bart bag It dot com, B A R T B
A G G E T T and double T yeah,
double G double T and handwriting wizard dot com. I
am going to be doing that as soon as we
log off of this show.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
We're so fascinating.

Speaker 9 (01:08:47):
So yeah, sincerely, Bart, thank you so much, and until
next time, because you Cliff hung us, well keep it here.
True Crime Tonight, we are going to be hearing from you.
We've got questions, we've got talkbacks, we've got reactions, we've
got cases. True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here
with Boddy and Courtney, Taha, Sam and Adam and a
big thanks to Bart Braggett.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
That was super fun.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
He is a great talker and that's such an interesting
part of the puzzle.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
It is in so many.

Speaker 5 (01:09:38):
Cases too, not just not just you know, the Epstein case,
but there's a lot of cases where you know, there's
Nancy Guthrie for instance, and ransom notes have been said.
I believe they're probably electronic emails and stuff, but in
so many cases ransom notes have been left.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Of course we were talking about Jean Manet, that famous case. Anyways,
I find all that you very fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Manifesto, even just to have a sense of the emotion
or like the timing of it. I find that so
interesting that emotion can also be interpreted in handwriting.

Speaker 9 (01:10:10):
Samples comes back for a manifesto talk and then we
can also figure out what was the.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
End of that.

Speaker 9 (01:10:18):
Yes, next time with John Benet, because I'll be thinking
about that.

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
That's so I'm gonna be trying to Let's go to
a talk back.

Speaker 6 (01:10:28):
Hi True Crime tonight. This is April from Akron. I
had two questions. One of them is are there any
updates on Travis Turner, the guy with the porn or
whatever and he escaped into the woods and he's God
only knows. And the second question is is there any
way that when Joseph Scott Morgan comes on, maybe Brother

(01:10:52):
Dave can come on with him too. That would be awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
Thanks, bye, Okay, that is so cute.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Brother Dave Isph Scott Morgan's co host. That's right on
body Bags and he's the best. And yes, that's a
great idea, Dave. Those guys are crushing. They have their
YouTube channel, they're starting things are really really looking good,
and we encourage everybody to.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
Really check it out. And absolutely he is.

Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
He is VIP right, always welcome. And then Travis Turner,
do we have an update on that one?

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
Oh?

Speaker 9 (01:11:30):
We do, and I had It's funny when I heard
the talk back, I was, Oh, he's someone I think about.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
I feel like we all kind of I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:11:36):
Want to think about like last month or think I did. Yeahine,
So Travis Turner.

Speaker 9 (01:11:42):
He he's a forty six year old former football coach,
which just means he was big in his community. And
he's from Appalachia, Virginia, and he's been missing since back
in November of twenty twenty five. So what happened was
this guy, Travis Turner, he fled his residence like literally
as state agents were arriving to conduct a criminal investigation.

(01:12:06):
And Turner's wanted on ten felony warrens involving c SAM
child sexual abuse material as well as the solicitation of
a minor going back to the fact that he was
a football coach in high.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
School for high school.

Speaker 9 (01:12:21):
So there's been a crazy man hunt multi agency led
by the FBI, the US Marshals are involved. And despite that,
the last official update April and Akron was back in March,
and they have vetted over one hundred and seventy eight

(01:12:42):
international leads and authorities have no credible sighting.

Speaker 5 (01:12:47):
And isn't he the one that like ran off into
the woods like from his house.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):
And it was the whole cone or something. Yeah, it
was Coral November, right, it.

Speaker 9 (01:12:56):
Was November, yep, and just ran he sent to the woods.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Yeah, and you know, listen, at that point, somebody has
to be aiding in a bedding, don't you think you know,
we're just theorizing right now. There doesn't seem to either
any either that or.

Speaker 5 (01:13:14):
He's he you know, killed himself and you know, that's
just his body just hasn't been discovered.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
And I think that's entirely possible.

Speaker 10 (01:13:23):
I feel like it's probably the ladder of the two
because because because if he's out there, how could someone
find him and reach him? I mean, you know, I
don't know if he had a cell phone or anything
along those lines, but it just feels a little questionable
if he didn't have any way to contact people, right, yake.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
See, I finally like he just sort of dipped, right,
didn't they just come by to you know, ask a
few questions if I'm remembering right, So, yeah, and then
he just you know, basically peeled out right.

Speaker 9 (01:13:52):
Well, I find it interesting that they vetted over they
being his authorities, over one hundred and seventy eight international leads.

Speaker 5 (01:14:01):
Probably maybe that Como in Canada and whatnot, oh, you know,
like from maybe even from Europe, like he took a
plane somewhere, but you know, those are The thing is
is that he bolted from the house very quickly. I
don't know that he would have time to grab his
passport and money and cash and to be able to
pull this off unless to your earlier point, he's got assistance, right,

(01:14:24):
you know, doesn't.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
It always strike you as wild?

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
You know that we talk about this so often, jurisdiction
and how hard it is for authorities, you know, to
sort of share information from different databases.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
We see this in you know, maybe the databases for DNA.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
That's a widening net.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
But just from you know, city to city or town
to town sometimes even but certainly state to state, that
gets so complicated. And how is that possible that hasn't
been solved with all the talk about AI, you think
that piece of this puzzle, the reciprocity of information. If
somebody is on the land, certainly is somebody who's carrying
a rifle in the middle of the night and being

(01:15:04):
accused of, you know, sexual things that seems like, you know,
I feel like we don't do that necessarily all of
the time.

Speaker 5 (01:15:13):
I think a lot of those things country to country
require certain treaties to have to be in place, and
I know that we do have like extradition treaties for example.
But I don't think technology has caught up with it, right.
I know this personally from more King. I was going
to say, not working with but innerpool, right, So I

(01:15:33):
know that I just don't think technology has caught up
with the government or not.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
It's the opposite way.

Speaker 5 (01:15:39):
And maybe I don't believe the government has caught up
with technology, right right, m.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
You know, maybe there is something good about that being
slightly separated, because you know, again maybe just all being
this technology being in control of everything may not be
the answer either.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:15:57):
Interesting, Wow, So if you have any information on you know,
where this guy is the US Martiall Service is offering
a reward of up to five thousand dollars for information
leading to Travis Turner's whereabouts and you can call the
Virginia State Police at to seven six four eight four

(01:16:18):
nine eight four three if you have any information, collect
that five grand and get this guy turned in.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
Right, let's go to a talk back.

Speaker 11 (01:16:26):
I have a question regarding the Nancy Guthrie k Specifically,
it is my understanding that her daughter Annie allegedly allegedly
allegedly asked her for a loan a few weeks before
the murder. And haven't heard a lot of people talk
about that. Don't want to say, but most of these

(01:16:47):
things I'm hearing are people close to them.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
Can you help sort that for me?

Speaker 5 (01:16:52):
Yeah, listen, you have to take everything you hear online
with a grain of salt. Right for just a little
set up. Eighty four year old and Nancy Guthrie Right.
She was reportedly kidnapped from her home in the Catalina
Foo Hills in Tucson, Arizona, January thirty. First, it's been
one hundred days. Despite the one hundred day milestone that

(01:17:16):
we just passed recently, investigators, have you know they've assured
the public that the case is not considered cold. Law
enforcement is currently waiting on this long term dnaal analysis
attempting to trace the retail origins of the suspect's clothing
and gear.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
And you know, of course.

Speaker 5 (01:17:34):
They have to keep certain details confidential to avoid to
being off the adductor that they're getting close maybe even
you know, And I think it's important to remember that
just because you you know, they're not having press conferences
and there's no new information, doesn't mean that the police
don't have anything. There's there's a lot of things they
just can't talk about now when it comes to this

(01:17:56):
alleged loan that people are talking about again, and you
have to consider the.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
Source, right.

Speaker 5 (01:18:03):
I think there's there's such value in independent journalism and
like YouTubers and streamers and what I do. I think
there's a lot of value there, but there's also a
lot of bad things changing, right because they're not held
to standards that you know, professional journalism is held to. Right,
they don't have to be vetted, their peers don't have

(01:18:25):
to like you know, look in and check double check things.
They can just say whatever they want, right, Right, So
consider the source. That's all I'm going to say about
you know, the loan. There's been no official uh you know,
acknowledgment of this loan.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
It's just being said. And if there was a loan,
is that proof of anything.

Speaker 5 (01:18:48):
Well, what they're saying is that they because it goes bigger.
What they're saying is that Annie and Tamaso, who are
Savannah Guthrie's sister and brother in law, Nancy Guthries daughter
and son in law, asked for a loan and Nancy
Guthrie said no, and that they somehow abducted her in
retaliation to get this ransom over this loan, as if.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
That wouldn't have been uncovered by now, and you know,
you know, the immediate source, and they were also really
dragged through it her family in the media. So how
is it possible that we have not found Nancy Guthrie?
I mean, with technology being what it is, it's just
so upsetting.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:19:29):
There's the thing about the Annie and Tomaso connection is
that you know, they're the closest ones in proximity to.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
Off right.

Speaker 5 (01:19:41):
Well, not only that, but Tomaso and Annie were among
the last two to see her after having dinner the
night she disappeared laturally to look in of course.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
Of course, however, there are people.

Speaker 5 (01:19:55):
Online that they've made a lot of money on this case,
let's be real, mean a lot of money on this case.
There's no information coming out. There's no value in camping
in front of Nancy Guthrie's house at the moment, right,
it's nothing's going on. Listen, You're going to start making
things up, period. And I'm not saying that's happening right now.

(01:20:17):
I'm just telling people to be wary of it because
I'm really wary.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
I've seen it very well.

Speaker 9 (01:20:22):
And of course, in the absence of any knowledge or facts,
people begin to fill the void, and once those things
are said, whatever the thing may be, they can become
fact in later iterations. I mean, it's so much like
a game of telephone. And I saw the thing, and
then and then other people say it, and it's like, well,
now I've seen five people say it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
Of course it's true. It's so true.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
Yeah, yeah, right, and so it kind of snowballs, and
I think that's where we're at right now. There's there's
there's vacuum of information, right, there's this void, so people
start filling it. You get a hint of something and
then you can start connecting that don't exist. I have
done it, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
We all activated like it was a reality show. Though
the whole country activated. It was sort of like we
were like, we are finding Nancy Guthrie, you know, and
like the intention being so right, Maybe that was ultimately
more confusing. And you know, this was one of those
few cases where there was a public call for attention

(01:21:24):
to you know, remember law enforcement really did encourage you know, tips,
et cetera. And you know, we also were concerned about
that because it can really slog the system.

Speaker 3 (01:21:36):
I'd be curious what we can learn from this, the
more we should.

Speaker 10 (01:21:39):
I'd be curious about all the people that sent the
ransom notes, like whatever happened to those people?

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
Were they and I don't think they were real.

Speaker 4 (01:21:47):
Well, I mean, did they arrest people? Like that was horrible?

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
There was one guy arrest Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:21:54):
That's a good question. That's a good point.

Speaker 5 (01:21:56):
Well, they probably became electronically. I don't think they were
handwritten notes. They were sent probably being to TMZ right.
I don't think they were not even to the.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
Family members who this gets a ransom note, not to
the family listeners, Savannah, you can find Savannah.

Speaker 5 (01:22:14):
I have a lot of conspiracy theories in my mind
about that stuff. Yeah, this was a money maker for
a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:22:21):
Oh, a lot of people.

Speaker 4 (01:22:23):
Wow. The coverage, Yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
It's interesting, Like there are certain things that are just
in the news cycle and certain things that are not.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
And it's it's wild.

Speaker 2 (01:22:35):
And you know, the more than I'm paying attention to it,
and it's like, there's no, it's not one source. I'm
just saying, I'm kind of across the board. It's something
we all have to just be looking out for and
making sure you're looking in all directions because you know,
we are being fed a lot right now.

Speaker 5 (01:22:51):
Oh well, and that's the other side too, right, like
mainstream media feeds us what Yeah, I think we want
to hear very sanitized information sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Too, right, Yep, they're very glorified the hands of virus.
That's the main thing at.

Speaker 5 (01:23:03):
The distraction stuff, right, the distraction materials. So I mean, listen,
like I said, there's a lot of value to independent journalism.
I am a fan of it. I just sometimes you're careful,
but you listen to look at your sources.

Speaker 4 (01:23:17):
Good point.

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
You need four sources. Let's do what I talk about.

Speaker 4 (01:23:22):
Yeah, we have time for one.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
Hey, true crime.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
You know, I just love Stephanie's laugh It's perfectious.

Speaker 4 (01:23:29):
I love it.

Speaker 8 (01:23:29):
I love that you got away and shared a.

Speaker 3 (01:23:32):
Little bit of that with all of us. Thank you
so much.

Speaker 9 (01:23:34):
I know the subject matter is hard, true crime, but
the fact that there's any laughing at all, it captured
my heart.

Speaker 11 (01:23:41):
As far as breastfeeding and a.

Speaker 9 (01:23:43):
Law, you know, there isn't any and.

Speaker 8 (01:23:45):
It's not child abuse. It's control, but no judgment.

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):
Oh, I just think eight years old is just.

Speaker 4 (01:23:54):
That's that's yeah, too far along.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
Controlling mother, the rolling mother that has the eight year old.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
Well, imagine you're well because you're controlling the food, right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:08):
I'm gonna guess it's really not.

Speaker 9 (01:24:10):
It's a total supplement, like even once every you know,
unless you're at a place where literally you don't have
any food, it's a supplement. It's a comfort once you
hit you know, a year and a half or something.
In many cases, let us say so at eight years old,
they're probably out having hamburgers. They're closed to growing out
of happy meals. By eight years old, they're close to

(01:24:33):
being done with the happy meals and yet so I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
Thank you for the sweet words.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Listen Tomorrow Jarff Farantino, the prosecutor himself, will be joining us,
so he's going to be breaking down a couple of
the cases that we talked about tonight. David included if
you have any talkbacks, make sure you send them in ladies.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
As always the best. I will speak to you tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
Stay safe, everybody an A

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