Mango Murder Mystery, a School Shooting Fallout, & a Billion Dollar Fraud Empire

The billionaire founder of Mango dies in a suspicious cliffside fall, and now his own son is under investigation. A judge has dismissed all criminal charges against former assistant principal Ebony Parker after prosecutors said warnings were ignored before a six-year-old shot teacher Abigail Zwerner. Plus, investigative reporter Michele McPhee joins us live to break down an alleged billion-dollar fraud empire tied to a powerful polygamist family and an alleged mob figure known as “The Lion.” Tune in for all the details. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, May twenty first, and
guess what we have a stack knight of headlines. The
billionaire founder of the clothing line Mango. Have you guys
ever been to that store? It's really popular in Europe.
They definitely have some locations here though. The owner, the

(00:40):
founder CEO of Mango, he was on a hike and
he dies on this hike. And now his son, who
is kind of set to inherit all of this money
has suddenly is suddenly being investigated for his actual murder. Also,
this shocking twist in the trial of the assistant principle

(01:01):
charged after a six year old student shot his teacher.
Is she responsible and should she be responsible? I hear
you had a very heated discussion last night. Plus we're
joined by investigative reporter Michelle McPhee, host of the new
iHeart podcast Kingdom of Fraud, here to.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Discuss all the juicy details.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
Listen. We have a full house.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
We have Taha also our producer in the hot seat,
and we have Sam and Adam waiting by the phone.
Eight eight eight three one crime Ladies. Hi, Happy little Friday.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
It's Friday, Junior. That's right, Happy baby Friday, Happy baby Friday.
How are you, guys? I am great. By the way,
is pouring rain here at the moment. There's some thunder
and lightning doing.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Outside the studio, So if you pure any or if
something goes awry, that is why.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
And I am hunting my blessings to not be in
the rain. And you, guys, I'm.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
I'm over it already. I'm over summer. It needs to
go away. Hasn't even started yet, by the way, I'm
like a month from starting.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
I know I can't deal with it. Get me Courtney
Armstrong in Los Angeles? What is doing by you? Well?

Speaker 5 (02:22):
Speaking of summer, my COVID purchase of an above ground pool.
We've set it up for the year, so that's it's
cleaned down. And is that.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
Why you're so tan?

Speaker 3 (02:35):
It is it is?

Speaker 5 (02:36):
That's exactly right, and it's ready to ready to go,
just climb up that ladder.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
And yes, you look great. And seriously, the color you
do have color, you look great.

Speaker 6 (02:46):
I know.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
By the way, if anybody is looking to see Body
Move in or Courtney, so many people are going to
Crime Con in Las Vegas next weekend just as a
heads up that for certain Body Move and will be
and many of the team. We're all trying to figure
out travel plans and yeah, lots of exciting things happening.
We have our podcast AI Made Me Die coming out

(03:11):
June fifteenth, is looking like the premiere date trailer will
drop soon even June, oh yeah, and June tenth, I
should say, I think it's even sooner than that. And
then also Murder one oh one, our documentary that I
was out for for Sundance, is finally premiering on Amazon

(03:31):
on July sixth, so we hope we'll tune in. And yeah,
and we're we're going to be launching KTTV, the video
version of this and much more in July. So we're
really excited and we're really looking forward to just having
an awesome summit together.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
That's right, I'll melt, I'll melt with you. Because I'll
well melt with you. But let's talk about this hiking.
Let's talk about this billionaire and Mango Lesoh yeah, the
Mango CEO. So his name is Isac and Dick. I
hope I'm saying that correctly. I want to get it proper.
He's seventy one years old. He's the billionaire founder of

(04:11):
that Mango clothing line you mentioned. Well, he died back
in twenty twenty four, around Christmas time, December fourteenth actually,
so just a couple of years ago. And this was
after he fell up to five hundred feet from a
cliff in Spain. Okay, so he falls from this cliff
in Spain, and he was an experienced hiker. He fell

(04:34):
along like an easy to navigate, family friendly route while accompanied.
He was only with one other person, his forty five
year old son Jonathan. Okay, so Jonathan and dad were
hiking on this really family friendly hike and he falls
to his death. Well, Spanish authorities initially ruled it, you know,

(04:55):
a really tragic accident. You know, like he's an older man.
He probably his footing and fell down this five hundred
foot cliff and they closed the case early in twenty
twenty five, so shortly after he fell. Spanish authorities now
have reopened the investigation and they've arrested the Sun that

(05:17):
he was with in connection with the death, and they
arrested him just on Tuesday. This has just happened. Jonathan
has not yet been officially charged in Spain and he
does maintain his innocence. So surface level, what do you
guys think.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
I can tell you I have my one of my
closest girlfriends is in Spain, lives there now, and this
story is the biggest story.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
Oh so all time, it's a it's a huge case.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
If you guys don't remember Mango, have any of our
listeners been to the Mango shop. Oh, it's kind of
like an eighth and m of yesteryear. So I think
like fast, you know, fast fabric or fast fashion, inexpensive
half shirts in mini skirts essentially, and like tons of
ear rings, h and m basically, but yeah, a girl

(06:07):
like me used to love that Mango and it was
hyper successful. So this a billionaire was basically printing money
and really looking to his son to sort of maybe
take on the new world. But now it seems like
the Sun might really be looking for some jail time.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Right, So do you guys ohs Courtney please?

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
I was gonna say, I've a little bit familiar with
this story, and it does seem like the sun was
maybe incentivized by more than just reconnecting on this hike
with his papa. Right.

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Well, that's the story that he, the son told, was
that this was a reconnection with his father and that
they were going hiking. Well, let's go through like some
of the evidence against this, because I was like, when
I was first reading this, I was like, well, if
they initially thought it was a flaw, what made them
arrest him like a year and a half later, right, like,
because it's spend some time.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Right.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
Well, they did some forensic analysis and it concluded that
the victim in this case, I sack, the older gentleman,
the billionaire. His injuries and body position did not match
an accident. It appeared that instead he had launched himself
down a slide feet first, right, So those injuries that

(07:27):
he had made it seem like he was basically going
down a slide, which to me surface level. Okay, maybe
he lost his footing and slid down, right, He's.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
An older gentleman, not an old man. No, this is
still like no one and so exactly. Well there's more though, Okay,
so that's just number one. The other stuff is that
there's a scuff mark near the cliff's edge, and they
determined it was made by deliberately pressing like pressure into

(07:58):
the ground rather than an actidental slip. So they found
this like indentation that they analyzed and came to the
conclusion that it was from pressure against the ground, meaning
that somebody was, you.

Speaker 5 (08:11):
Know, digging their heels into push leverage basically like now
let me fall, you know, So imagine someone.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
Pushing you off a cliff.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Is when you're digging insinuates and you're giving every morsel
of your body and your body weight and your heels
are digging into sand on this cliff.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
This is howroin right then.

Speaker 4 (08:33):
Okay, So the son Jonathan, he claimed he was walking
ahead and he missed the fall because his father was
kind of like lagging behind him to take photos, right,
But the authorities found his cell phone in his pocket.
He wasn't taking photos. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 3 (08:53):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (08:53):
I see, I know that people make a lot of
Hey that doesn't seem that interesting to me. For example,
doesn't no, because I can take a picture and then
slip my phone into my pocket again real quick.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
They would find you a photo on your phone. You
would have thee oh see I miss that and that's
that is w Hey.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of hay here because
that's a key detail, right court, think about it. There's
no photo number one, So maybe you were confused and
nervous and you wanted to take a photo and you
thought that you had Again, these are pressure point moments, right,
So we do have to offer some grace to anybody

(09:34):
who finds themselves in a life and death situation where
your father, maybe just Fowlers slipped off.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
A you know, a mountain.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know, you're going to maybe remember things differently in
the state of shock that he may have found himself in.
All that to be said, yeah, like his phone was
in his pocket, there is no photo and GPS would
suggest that that wasn't really the thing. And those heal marks,
Although interesting, I wonder if that would serve vibe in court.
That might fall under junk science. This is a Joseph question,

(10:05):
but it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
I have no idea how what they consider science, you
know what I mean, Like every every country is different
and they have different standards, and I'm just not familiar
at all. I'm, you know, a little familiar with Italy
because of Amanda Knox. Right, that's about it. But Spain,
I have no idea. This one's really interesting. So Jonathan,

(10:28):
he gave conflicting statements to investigators. Okay, he claimed that
this was a single hike that they were doing. But
and that might be true. That might be true, the
single hike with dad. GPS data put him on that
hike three times in the week before.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, the hike.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
And that's how things like scouting, right, I mean, remember,
this is a this is a tempered relationship. It's not
a perfect relationship.

Speaker 7 (10:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
There has been some financial stresses on this relationship. You know, Dad,
this billionaire obviously has the resources, but his son definitely
was looking for some financial gain at certain times and
that was a big piece of their relationship, allegedly. Allegedly allegedly,
Well I'm glad you said that, because in mid to

(11:20):
in mid twenty twenty four, so just a few months
prior to this, you know, his death, Basically, Jonathan learned
that his father planned to leave his wealth to a
charitable foundation. So I mean there's some maybe some motivation
there to make this happen before that process took place, right,

(11:45):
But why would he do that? Even pause right there,
just for one pix. Sorry, I'm so sorry to interrupt,
No please, But why would billionaire Dad, who has this
you know, clothing chain that's you know, world known, he's
made billions of dollars, why would he not leave money
to his son?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
That's a good question.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Well, first of all, what kind of a scoundrel would
not leave money to his son? That's the first question.
Second question is what is the dynamic between father and
son that would allow Dad to think his son shouldn't
be in his will.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
He's going to give it to charity and to strangers.

Speaker 4 (12:24):
His son he's got two sisters too. He's got two sisters.
His son serves as a vice chairman of Mango's board,
and his two sisters share control beholding company and that
retains ninety five percent majority stake in that fashion empire.
So they're trust alved somehow. I mean, he's involved in

(12:44):
the company and the running of everything, but there's apparently
some kind of strained relationship because they did some text
analysis on his WhatsApp you know in Europe the is
WhatsApp right, And they did some text analysis on it
and it revealed that is sect the victim in this
case potentially right, the man who passed away, He felt

(13:08):
forced to submit to the sons, the suspect, Jonathan, his
financial demands just to maintain a relationship with the son.
So it's almost like his son was like guilting him
emotionally financially. Does that make sense like it does? Yeah,
there was some kind of strain. There was some kind

(13:29):
of strain. I don't know what it is, but there
was some kind of strain. The judge concluded that Jonathan
and Dick used emotional manipulation for economic gain while at
the same time harboring a deep resentment and ideas related
to death and blame toward the father. So there was

(13:50):
definitely something going on there in this text analysis that
they did.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, it sounds like Dad wasn't in the mix that
much and Jonathan was feeling very poorly about it and
money seemed to be at the center of this real
fractured relationship. Is that enough of a motive? Does that
prove murder? I mean, also, Jonathan, the son had a
lot going on for him. He's a good looking, handsome,
smart educated guy, maybe with a strained relationship with his

(14:17):
billionaire dad.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
But does that track man?

Speaker 2 (14:21):
These are things that the rest of us don't have
to deal with, the idea that somebody your son would
push you off a cliff for money. Save me the
billions of dollars and thank you anyway, I will shop
at Target.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
No, I will shop at my TJ Max instead.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
But we see it all the time, whether it's billions
or millions or hundreds. I mean, who was her name?

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Is escaping me?

Speaker 5 (14:47):
She was the wife who wrote the children's book after
she was Cory Richards Cory Ritchins convicted of killing her husband,
father of her children for cash.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
That's just the most recent one that comes to mind.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
We should say that Jonathan maintains his innocence and through
the family, they've released a statement to Ruters and through
the executors of the Whale they assert that there does
not exist, nor will there exist, legitimate evidence against him,
and that they also expressed that this reopening of this
investigation has been very painful. They called the allegations painful

(15:26):
and highly stigmatizing to an innocent man. They say that
they're not going to be able to prove that this
was a murder in any capacity, so he does maintain
his innocence. We're at to stand by and see.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (15:37):
Absolutely and stick around because when we're back former assistant
principal Ebony Parker, who we spoke about last night, turns
out she will not be facing criminal charges. Prosecutors, you know,
failed to make their case according to the judge.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanieleidecker here with Courtney
Armstrong and body move in listen.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Thank you for the talkbacks.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Keep them coming, Keep them coming, because not only are
we getting them, we're going to go to one right now.

Speaker 8 (16:21):
Hey, ladies, this is Liz in Washington regarding the six
year old with a gun at the elementary school. I
am a teacher. I teach high school, so the rules
may be different, but I am not allowed to search
a student or even their backpack. I had a student
once who had a twelve inch flated knife in our
backpack in my classroom, and all I could do was

(16:42):
move the backpack to the front of the room and
call edmin So. I don't know how other states work
or if it's different for different age students, but sometimes
the teachers really aren't allowed to do that search or
seizure right away. For us, that has to be either
admin or our school resource officer who is part of
the local police department on campus. Hope you gause you're
having a good night, sye.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
That's right, wow, Thank you for that insight.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Can we start with the fact that teachers are running
the world and are so underappreciated, undervalued, underpaid, not by
you know, listen, valued by all of us. And I
know anyone in the sound of my voice can appreciate that.
I can just tell you, as a teacher, thank you,
thank you for keeping our kids in the pocket.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Your job is so thankless.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
And how is it possible that you're putting your life
in jeopardy and not able to search somebody at school.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
It's such a confusing thing.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
There is a Supreme Court ruling. It's from New Jersey
versus Dolo, and the court held that school officials do
not need probable cause or a warrant like police would
you know do Instead, they only need reasonable suspicion. However,
it might vary district by district, right like, every district
might have their own rule. And in this case, about

(18:00):
to discuss that one of the reading teachers searched the back.
They didn't find anything though, because the gun was on
his person, it was in his jacket, right Yeah.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
And the ACLU is also saying that students have the
right to be searched. I'm you know, I'm sure administrators
may say, you know, it's frowned upon. I think it
parents wanted to be frowned upon. But it seems legal
if there's reasonable cause legal, it's definitely legal. But each
school district might have their own specific rules, right like,

(18:33):
and how to handle these things.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
But meanwhile, our recaller is feeling threatened. She knows full
well that one of her students has a switchblade or
a knife or a blade in there. That is so
unreasonable at a job that's already incredibly unreasonable at this point,
I can't stress that enough. Like safety in the classroom,
I'm saying this as a mom who of course wants

(18:56):
our kids safe. That's paramount, and that goes without saying.
I also really want our teachers to feel safe. And
if you know one of you know, my children's you know,
backpacks has a knife slipping out of it.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, they should have the right to search it.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
I agree, and I should did that phone call, and
I should have to deal with the repercussions that go
with that. You know, Like this is you know, they're
not parents. They are parallel parenting out of the goodness
of their heart. But that's not their job. Their job
is to teach and educate, you know, not like monitor safety.
And that's that's a hard thing, and that not to police,

(19:34):
which makes this case that we're about to discuss so
incredibly difficult and confusing.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
So this is a follow up from Astley.

Speaker 5 (19:42):
There there's been some movement so Ebony Parker, she's the
former assistant principal at an elementary school and she was
facing eight felony clowns of child neglect and abuse. Well,
the judge, her name is Rebecca Robinson. She she threw.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
The case out. The prosecutors.

Speaker 5 (20:04):
Their argument was that this assistant principle ignored repeated and
clear warning signs. It was from multiple people on the
day that a six year old student ended up shooting
his teacher, Abigail's werner. Thankfully, Abigail's Werner survived, but it
was very traumatic.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:25):
The defendant, Ebony Parker, her attorney countered that she had
limited information, responds it appropriately based on what she knew.
And ultimately the judge just said that the prosecution's case
was a quote mashup of legal theory and didn't consult
any kind of a crime.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah. I kind of agree with that, you know what
I mean. They searched the backpack, you know, and then
the kids they were outside. They were outside at recess,
I think is what was going on, and the kid,
I think more kids reported or a kid reported that
they saw gone right. And then the defendant in this case,

(21:06):
Ebony Parker, was informed of this and she said his
pockets are too little to have a gun.

Speaker 7 (21:13):
Right.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
I think that was what she said, which is probably valid, right,
I mean mom is on the way, like mom is
on the way now anyway, and then of course disaster happened.
I Was she negligent, I don't I know. Legally I
don't know, but apparently no, she love them.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
I would say this is a great case study. Though.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
I think it's important that it's getting discussed, that it's
gotten national attention. I think she suffered from a lot
of glib behavior. Also, you know, there was a lack
of compassion, it seemed while presenting. Again, this is optics
in the courtroom, just optics. Of course, she was stressed

(21:59):
that somebody on her watch got shot in the classroom.
Of course, she's completely freaked out that a six year
old rolled into school with a gun and used it.
Of Course, nobody's really thinking that's in the cards. This
was one of those cases though, that is very specific,
because I don't know that while testifying, Ebanie really shared

(22:22):
her feelings, her heart, her.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Take on it.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
It all felt a little defensive in a way. Sure,
and how could she not be defensive. She's fighting for
her life, She's looking at decades behind bars.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Is that appropriate?

Speaker 2 (22:39):
No, But I do think in my opinion, In my opinion,
I just think this is so tragic on so many
levels that it's important to discuss it so that school
officials and teachers and parents, we can all be looking
at this holistically, learning from this case, knowing full well
that a person really is going to suffer for the

(22:59):
rest of her life. You know, the teacher is not
going to ever really be the same she's been, you know,
forever harmed you know, had to have six surgeries. This
was not an easy thing, knowing full well that there
had been some you know.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Knowledge of this happening, and mom was on the way.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
She was, and so what's the solution, Like, obviously, if
this is like a case study, right, what's the answer,
Because you know, teachers are there to teach. Obviously, we
want them teaching the children because we need some very
police smart adults, right, We need smart adults running this country.
So we need to raise you know, smart children. And

(23:38):
so what's the solution. Obviously parents don't want their children
to feel like they're going to like a police state
when they're going to school right, right, and get searched
left and right and things like that.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
But what is the solution?

Speaker 4 (23:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Listen, I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (23:53):
The reality is, and we've talked about it, more than
one shooting per week in this country. So if someone
saying anyone has a gun, including the baby and diapers,
I'm sorry, I'm searching the bag. I want it that
if anything is being said about a gun, agreed.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
And by the way, because we're talking about this that
will likely happen. I just have a little bit of
grace for her because I do you know, imagine there's
like a thousand kids running around, everyone's complaining, parents are
super stressed, and you know it's a big job. She's
managing a lot. I would imagine she'll pay attention next time.
That doesn't help the victim, though, who's literally life has

(24:34):
been altered by this incident. I think it really requires
us all having a proper talk about it, to say,
like these, this is where we are right now.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
There is a school shooting once in the melody.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Hats off to any teacher who actually shows up knowing
full well that there is a school shooting once a
week in this country. It's like, it's so scary to
send our kids. I mean, that's a given, and we
can talk about that all day, all night. My favorite topic,
in fact, probably while I why I work in this job.

(25:06):
We all want to feel safe. However, for teachers, you
think they're cavalier about it. They're getting underpaid, still showing
up dealing with all of our children who might be
in a good mood or a bad mood or something,
and now they're also police officers. In psychics, she should
have handled it better.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Yes, she, They're constantly taking crap from parents too. Let's
be reading the teachers. You know, I could only imagine
to my little Timmy. You know, even a little Timmy
is like a demon in class every day, right exactly,
And they get corrected on something and immediately they start
texting the teachers. I have a good friend who's a teacher,

(25:45):
and it's crazy the text messages she gets from parents,
like insane.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Can I tell you one quick story because it just
came across me today, and again, not to make this
about me, but when they're during the Palisades fire, my
son was in middle school and the fires are erupting, right, so,
you know it's impossible to get anywhere.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I'm far away. They had to evacuate a full school
to a.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Different location that parents who, in some cases like my own,
didn't even have cell service to even know where that was.
They somehow were able to take a public school in
Pacific Palisades slash Brentwood, California and move all of those
children safely in buses in the midst of a real emergency.

(26:32):
This was like a real thing, and they did it seamlessly.
And I can't say enough about Paul Revere Middle Schools
teachers and all the people associated with it.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
I was so grateful.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
I was the last mom to get there, literally with
like a side pony in a full sweat, like had
been in the car for six and a half hours
just to pick up my son, and I looked at
them like the biggest heroes on earth. And then the
next day I hear that a bunch of parents were
complaining because they kids left their backpacks behind when they
were being evacuated. Some of them didn't have their gym sneakers,

(27:06):
or their you know, Apple watches, or their cell phones
because in the rush of it all, they weren't even
given enough time to get their.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Phones and their watches.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Mewhile I know full well how minute to minute that
situation was. The fact that everybody was accounted for, every
child was handled with care, yet those same caregivers were
given a bunch of slack. Yeah, it's not right. You
can't win, and that's so unfortunate. So it's easy to
pile on as my point, Yes, of course, the principle

(27:37):
should have done better if you're knowing that there's a
gun around, whether it's in a diaper or in a backpack.
Of course, like full alarms. At the same time as
a lot going on, and it's so hard to be
black and white in these situations. And I just hope
we kind of open the conversation and to all of
our points just to be a little bit more productive.

(27:57):
We have to be aware that this is a real thing.
Of someone says gun, it's real. This was a pretty
hot topic. We have another talk back about it right now.

Speaker 7 (28:08):
Hi, it's Cricket from Connecticut. I'm calling about the six
year old with a gun, and I can say I
strongly disagree with Judge Michelle on this one. As a
former teacher, if one of my children was reported to
have a gun, it would be expected that at a minimum,

(28:28):
that child would be pulled from the classroom and isolated
until authorities could get there.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
I mean that seems kind of obvious.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
It seems kind of like common sense to me, right,
But yeah, on it each I mean, apparently each district
really works independently of one another because they all have
different rules. I don't know what those are, but yeah.

Speaker 5 (28:53):
Well, in this instance, the judge, you know, they've stated
that there's no precedent for administration to be criminally so
that is when you were saying go ahead, Stephanie, And.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
I was going to say, I'm on a message board
still with a previous school with all the parents about guns.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
Or because there's shooters.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
There's like constantly an alert about an active shooter somewhere
in the school system, publicly in Los Angeles. And as
a parent, it's really scary. Imagine as a teacher how
scary that would be. It's frightening. Beyond words. We have
to take it individually. And in this case, the ball
got dropped.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Courtney. Sorry, do you disagree that the ball got dropped.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
No, I don't disagree at all, but it is drop
But it's also grace.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
And what you were going to, what you were getting to, Courtney,
I think is really interesting. I don't know what the
prosecutors were thinking here. You know, the judge said, there's
no precedent for this. The prosecutors filed eight specific counts
corresponding to the eight bullets that were found in the gun.
That doesn't make any sense to me, and it didn't
make any sense to the judge. Judge Rebecca Robinson noted

(30:06):
that this ran entirely contrary to case law, which requires
the bullets to be discharged in order for it to
be separate counts exactly, thinking.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
So it was mishandled on the prosecution. I agree, it seems,
I mean, they just presented a case poorly. I think
the outcome. I do not think this woman should have
been in prison for forty years or any you know, honestly,
or any.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
Civilly on their book for a lot.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I think she The civil part of this is also
very real. I think this is not over for her necessarily.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
It's a tough call. I mean, as we're trying to listen.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
I actually think her biggest issue was that she didn't
seem particularly apologetic while in the courtroom, and probably because
she felt petrified that she was going to be backed
for a corner and she did the best she could
in that moment.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
So that's why it's really important for us to talk
about these types of moments, because until you're in it,
you really can't prepare, and it's easy to say the
next day, oh, you should have done this, you should
have done that.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
I can assure you she.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Probably will and that will be the new law in
the land where she's from.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
But I don't know. This is a tough one. I
hear all sides of it.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
I do too, and you know, I agree with you
that it's easy to Monday Morning quarterback, right, or whatever
that's saying is.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
And we also now have investigative journalists Michelle McPhee with
us here to discuss her new podcast on iHeartRadio. Make
sure you download your iHeartRadio app. You can get our
show as a podcast, and also Michelle mcfee's as well.
Her podcast is called Kingdom of Fraud. And listen, none

(31:50):
of us want to be fraudulent or we don't want
to get wrapped up with somebody who's fraudulent. So Michelle,
thank goodness you're here to keep us all in check
because now's not the time for financial fraud.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Come on, welcome. We're so glad you're here.

Speaker 9 (32:09):
Hi, I'm so happy to be here. What a crowd.
I love this. It's gonna be a lot of fun,
I can tell all right.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
It's a good vibe.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
It's a good vibeally good energy.

Speaker 9 (32:18):
It's cool. A music is like catchy.

Speaker 6 (32:20):
It makes you feel like talk about murdering maham, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yes, designed give us some murder and mayhem.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Courtney is going to give us a little setup of
the case itself that you've been covering so closely, so Courtney,
take it away.

Speaker 5 (32:36):
Absolutely, So if you're not super conversant in Michelle's new podcast,
Kingdom of Fraud, so at the center of it or
two guys. One is Jacob Kingston and he's a member
of a powerful polygamous sect.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
They're known as the Order.

Speaker 5 (32:53):
The other one is Levon and you'll correct me later,
Michelle Levon termin Zion, who allegedly is an l organized
crime figure and he's nicknamed the Lion. So we have
these two guys and federal investigators the allegations of that
these two guys built an absolutely massive fraud empire and

(33:13):
they used fake renewable fuel transactions to do it, stealing.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Huge federal tax credits.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
And I guess living really fat off of it with
lavis lifestyle, luxury cars, all the stuff you would picture.
So tell us, yes, So tell us, Michelle, how how
did you start?

Speaker 3 (33:34):
How did you decide to start this project?

Speaker 9 (33:37):
You know, it's funny. I was just out to go
to some old wise guy and we.

Speaker 6 (33:40):
Were talking about this very question, and it really came
down to a press release on this dirty fed. A
very high ranking FBI agent named Bob ach Brohman had
been locked up, and you look him up and you
see this guy has some big tat. So this is
pretty serious. You have somebody just high up in the
FBI food chain to got locked up. And then you

(34:01):
find out that this Gucci belt wearing, swaggering bed was
selling himself out and our country frankly to the Armenian underworld.
He was barning in Vegas with hookers. And this set
me down this very long rabbit hole, because you guys
can see how complicated this case is. Theseus were able

(34:23):
to rip off a half a billion dollars. That's they
cry for a billion. They almost got it. But imagine
how easy it was and how unlikely he had this
forgive the term, but he's a little odd He's an
oddball guy who grew up in what the Southern Poverty
Loss Center called the cult. They call it a blood cult.

(34:44):
So you grew up in this polygamous sect in.

Speaker 9 (34:46):
The middle of nowhere, Utah.

Speaker 6 (34:48):
You know, this cult is very famous for marrying within
the family. And then you have the Lion and Courtney,
you did a great job. It took me forever, which
is why I just say the Lion.

Speaker 9 (35:02):
Commend it a Lion.

Speaker 6 (35:05):
Well, the Lion also is like one of the most
colorful people that I've ever written about him. He was,
you know, a man about town in the Armenian community.
He was an immigrant, he became a gas station titan.
And so how these two came together to create this
elaborate scheme was just fascinating. And then you look at

(35:25):
all of the dirty Feds and cops that they had
on the payroll, and this thing just became impossible to
put down. I was down the rabbit hole and I
wasn't letting go. And you know, four years later, here
we are with this. You know, started out as a
Los Angeles magazine lawn form story, and now it's just
kind of morphed into this. I couldn't stop writing about it.

(35:46):
I still care stop writing about it. You know, remember
the FBI agent. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny
little side stories. But the FBI agent and his wife
wandered the money he was getting from the underworld with
a life removal company called love Bugs.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
So who exactly is the order and how much influence
did the Kingston family have.

Speaker 6 (36:08):
Well, you probably have seen the Kingston family on shows
like Escaping Women and now I can't remember the name
of the reality show, of course, but that would be
The Kingston Plan.

Speaker 9 (36:19):
They are very powerful.

Speaker 6 (36:21):
They've been called by the Southern Poverty Law Center of
a blood cults because they quite literally often marry within
the family, So you have a lot of relatives that
are married to one another. They believe obviously plural wives.
And I in the podcast, I interview a lot of
the women just about what it's like to grow up

(36:42):
in the Order, and it sounds so handmade sale is
what I came away. Yes, you know, talking to these women,
I'm like, oh wow, you know, they don't have control
their money, they don't really have control their bodies. You know,
up until very recently they were often married under age.
That kind of changed the rules on that within the Order.

(37:04):
But to listen to some of these women and the
abuses they suffered at the hands of some of these
men in the Order, it was extraordinary that In the end,
and I don't want to give away the end, but
the women had a very big part in taking this
entire case down, which always gave me like two or joye,
you know, like the women did it. They took it down.
They took down these people. You know, in the Kingston

(37:28):
Klan women did, and it's really fascinating that this was
going on and they were ripping off the government so flagrantly.
And now these women come in like nw no, no, no,
we've had enough.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Well a lot of these Pologimus cults too, are based
in fraud, right, so they grow up in it, they
know it. Their entire culture is based around defrauding the
government for taxes, any number of reasons, welfare, you know,
things like that. So it's it's kind of ingrained in
them from the beginning.

Speaker 6 (38:00):
So when I am a ter, think about this term
bleeding with beasts, and it's called leading the beast, and
it quite literally means the beast is the government, and
they go out of their way to retaliate against the
people that they believe are keeping them down and not
allowing them to practice their religion, which is ploral marriage,

(38:21):
and so they say.

Speaker 9 (38:23):
Let's bleed the beast. In this case was.

Speaker 6 (38:26):
A massive example of bleeding the beast. In fact, that
was the name of the Los Angeles magazine story.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
I wrote, it's.

Speaker 5 (38:32):
A great that's a great title as his kingdom, a
great title, and read how did this polygamous leader end
up getting in bed with an alleged organized crime figure,
the Lion, Like, how did that intersection happen?

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (38:46):
Yeah, because the Lion worked in energy, so he was
this big shot gas station tycoon from Los Angeles and
Jacob Kingston, he wasn't really a leader in the order.
In fact, it was kind of like an under and
it was laughed at. And he's a dude walking around
in wranglers and he's kind of a goofball and he
wasn't taken very seriously. So but he got himself a

(39:09):
doctorate degree in Utah at the University of Utah, and
he had an engineering degree, and he wanted to start
this biofuel business. But you need to have somebody who
can sell the biofuel. And trust me, there is one
episode where somebody has to break down how the scheme
works because it is super complicated. There's all these different

(39:31):
codes in the tax code. There was a million ways
that they could rip off the system and they pretty
much uncovered every single one of them.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
Interesting, and do you We're going to go to break soon,
but when we come back, I'd love to know if you,
over the course of your reporting talk to what is
it the forensic accounting all of that. I always found
that so wildly interesting how and what they can dig up. Listen,
we'll have that after the commercial break, and do stick

(40:01):
around because coming up at the top of the hour,
investigative journalist Michelle McFee is staying with us. We are
going to continue talking about her new podcast, Kingdom of Fraud.
And also don't forget to give us a call. We're
at eighty eight three to one crime. We'd love to
hear your thoughts. Keep it here.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight an iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lei Decker here
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Movin. Of course, we have
producer Taha with us as well, and Sam and Adam
in the control room waiting by the phone. If you
want to give us a call live eight eight eight
three one Crime. We have with US journalist who's also

(40:55):
investigating all kinds of things, but in this case straight
up fraud. Michelle McPhee is here to discuss her new podcast.
You can download it on the iHeartRadio your radio app.
Kingdom of fraud. So I know we got cut off
a little bit earlier in the last segment, Michelle. So
we're playing a little bit of catch up here. Who

(41:15):
wants to ask the first question?

Speaker 5 (41:19):
Oh, I will hop for it, biz, Yes, Cliffhang So
in Kingdom of Fraud, a lot of monies were stolen
and how much did you talk to financial forensic accountants?

Speaker 6 (41:36):
The thing is how hard the IRS Criminal Division worked
on this case. You know, these are the gun toting,
door kicking badasses of the IRS. And you know when
you start talking to these guys just about going down
the rabbit hole of money, it is wild how they
can put these cases together. You know, let's follow the

(41:59):
money goes all the way back to Watergate, and it
is true. I think we can also think about any
case that we talk about, because we love true crab,
anything that we talk about, we could probably follow the
money and that's going to lead us to a big
giant string to pull, right, or a tree to shake
or gift to pop. Right, there's always money. But to

(42:22):
actually talk to the IRS stations who did such a
phenomenal job on this case. They were the ones that
spent years like uncovering you know, moneies that were very
deliberately hidden and in a big part of this money, remember,
was laundering through Turkey with the help of a former
CIA director allegedly.

Speaker 9 (42:41):
Named James Woolvey.

Speaker 6 (42:43):
You know this, this dark money was sped through Turkey
through a purported CIA asset named Barron cork Monts Barron's
Cork months if you look him up. Now, he's come
up in other cases, most recently in the Eric Adams case.
He was he was due to testify against Eric Adams,
the New York City mayor, before that case fell apart.

(43:04):
So what this money really started to become such an
intriguing spy tale where now we're chasing money around Turkey,
We're chasing money. Were they using it to fund the
courts to fight I says like that was the allegation
that Jacob made on the stand, that you know this
money was wandered through Turkey to fund black ops for
the CIA.

Speaker 9 (43:25):
Well, so it became complicated.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
The federal authority said that nearly a billion dollars may
have been stolen and defrauded. Where did the money actually.

Speaker 6 (43:36):
Go, Well, I mean a lot of it went on
chrome lambos and private jets and fancy dinners in Vegas.
But you know there's some money that was never recovered,
so who knows where it went. You know, these guys
were very good kind of you know, covering up their track.
And what was interesting is, and this is one of

(43:57):
the things that's always bothered me about the story, just
how easy it was. It's a one page form. Hi,
we made biofuel, give us a dollar.

Speaker 9 (44:07):
And then you do this a billion times.

Speaker 6 (44:10):
And remember the Kingston and had all these children, many many,
many many children, and the children will put to work
to fill out these one page forms.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Mm hm oh, my goodness. So little.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
That's not uncommon in these in these polygamous sex it's
very common.

Speaker 6 (44:29):
It's very There was a lot of child labor laws
I think that were broken, and we said the Kingston
clean end of this case in the order.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
So what's.

Speaker 6 (44:42):
Honestly for me? I think, because you know, I covering
law enforcement, the level of corruption with law enforcement was
fagrig And you know, I think imagined that the dirty
FBI agent is what made me untangle the scale in
the first place. And you know this, here's a guy
that was making so much money a bought a house

(45:04):
and like Tahoe and he.

Speaker 9 (45:05):
Was allowed to keep that's not cheap. We all know
that not cheap at all.

Speaker 6 (45:10):
But his wife came up here, excuse me, he allegedly
came up with a plan to launder this money and
they started a business called love Bugs and it was
a professional life removal company. The step Yeah, and every
time I say my head, we all.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
Just like, is there a big calling for life's removal?
I had no idea.

Speaker 6 (45:41):
I honestly I didn't either, but it's very clever and
I like the.

Speaker 9 (45:44):
Name, like love Bugs.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
That's weird.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Ye.

Speaker 6 (45:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (45:51):
The corruption is what I think.

Speaker 6 (45:53):
We'll drive everybody who pays taxes crazy because this scheme
as large and it's sprawling as was, it needed the
help of some very powerful lar enforcement officials.

Speaker 9 (46:05):
To keep it afloat.

Speaker 6 (46:06):
One of them was the dirty FBI agent. Another was
a dirty HSI agent, which is a Homeland Security Investigations agent.
There was a Glendale detective who was on the take.
You know, he was helping, he was doing everything, this
guy John Vally. And but the sad irony is, you
know he was working. According to court records, he was

(46:31):
working to help the filitate cartels. And then his own
daughter died.

Speaker 9 (46:36):
Of a drug over so he was helping me.

Speaker 6 (46:39):
Yeah, So there was like there was a lot of
karmic retribution in this case, and that was one of
them where it was terrible story. But he lost his
own daughter and imagine how he had to live with
that now, which was one of the arguments his Dawyers
made of sentencing, is take pity on him he lost
his daughter. Well, you also helped it. It takes the

(47:00):
drug trade that touch your dart of life, many many
other lives. So I think that was the most surprising
to answer your question like that.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
By the way, you can't see Michelle, but like, honestly,
Michelle is speaking my language. I want Michelle. I want
to just either hug or put her in a headlock,
like she's so like one of us. She's just like
good vibes and she's cracking at the system.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
So again, you know, we think, oh the irs, they're
going to come after they're they're hitting the small guide. No,
these are very hard jobs. They have to put these
guys under not only you know, the spotlight, but they
have to do all this investigating on pretty sophisticated operations.
Even the idea of a nonprofit being used for profit

(47:52):
is abhorrent, you know, because the rest of us are
just thinking, oh, I'm going to make a donation or
I'm going to do something nice, and that's not going
necessarily to where it's going, and that in and of
itself is crazy making.

Speaker 6 (48:06):
It really is like there's the idea that the money,
I mean, look, all this money was flowing into the Order,
and none of it really went to the people who
were at the bottom levels of the Order. You know, Jacob,
it's interesting to watch. I think one of the one
of the sadder tales, at least they tried to portray
it this way at the sentencing is Jacob was communicated

(48:29):
completely by the Order because he cooperated and took the stand.

Speaker 9 (48:35):
So, just like the Underworld, the.

Speaker 6 (48:37):
Order has some pretty strict rules about talking about the
family out of the family, and so the fact that
Jacob took the stand against Levon to Mendian which is
the pronunciation, but I prefer to lie in right the
money took the stand, you know, he people.

Speaker 9 (48:52):
Turn their backs on him, and he also took on
his brother, who threw up his entire scheme.

Speaker 6 (49:00):
Isaiah Kingston, who's Jacob's little brother, he made eleven dollars
an hour. So this kid who worked in the coal
mines of the order allegedly and then he claims he
got cancer from that child's labor. She's now working for
his brother, who's emulating the lion buying lambows. You know,

(49:24):
Isaiah took a stand and talked about my brother used
to wear you know, ranglers, and now he's wearing eight
hundred dollar shirts and you know, fancy watches, and he's
buying a big mansion.

Speaker 9 (49:37):
And this isn't how we live.

Speaker 6 (49:39):
And Isaiah still got sent to prison, even though you know,
here is not somebody who financially profited from the scheme
in any way. Really, he just kind of was like
a cog in the machine.

Speaker 5 (49:52):
Oh my goodness, listen, if you're just joining us, this
is true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here as
always with Stephanie Leidecker and bodymus and we are so
excited to be here with Michelle McPhee and we're talking
about her new iHeart podcast, Kingdom of Fraud.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
We are all like sitting here chins in hand.

Speaker 5 (50:13):
Really, yeah, no, very very excited to listen to the
entire thing.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
So what like what should people look out for?

Speaker 5 (50:24):
What if you if you're one thing that's like going
to raise people's curiosities as much as you've raised ours,
is there something you can point to?

Speaker 6 (50:33):
Well, I think this idea of green energy really needs
to be examined.

Speaker 9 (50:37):
Right, like we all we all want to embrace this.

Speaker 6 (50:39):
We all want to do good thing for the world, right,
we want to do good things save mother Earth. This
is who's going to argue against that? So these green
energy initiatives get pasked by Congress over and over and
over again, and it's truly not enough lawen force.

Speaker 9 (50:54):
So there's no real law enforcement component.

Speaker 6 (50:57):
So green energy scans are like the new organized think
trash from the gam Bino crime family. You know, this
is the new trash for the Gambino crime family. It's
green energy scams. And the judge, you know, at some point,
and I can't remember what we talked about in the podcast,
but I do believe it's in the story. The judge

(51:17):
talked about how astonished she was at the sheer number
of green energy cases that we're discussed in this case.
So this was all this was a billion dollars.

Speaker 9 (51:30):
They had one hundred of these that's a hundred. That's
our money.

Speaker 6 (51:34):
Who's money is look in the mirror. This is the
money for teachers, schools. You know, bring back Sesame Street,
Let's bring back school lunches. And you know what I
mean like this is that we could be using to
actually make this country function in a humane way, but
instead it's being squandered, and no one seems to care
because it's one case after another after another, and both

(51:57):
sides of the aisle keep passing this legislation or trying
to stops the legislation, which what nobody is doing is
taking a look at what needs to be done to
make sure that we stem the flow of fraud that
comes along with this new Every new piece of green
energy comes with a new way to steal it.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
I have a solution, Michelle for presidente She just said
everything that yes, like run for Congress.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
By the way, Michelle's cool.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Do I would like if you have my long term
hair goals number one?

Speaker 3 (52:32):
And I love the color yeah, color done. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
The Lion sounds like an evil like.

Speaker 9 (52:42):
Movie villain, not you know what's funny?

Speaker 3 (52:46):
What?

Speaker 4 (52:46):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (52:46):
What?

Speaker 9 (52:48):
I'm sorry, I didn't mean.

Speaker 4 (52:49):
To please he sounds like an evil movie character. What
was he really like he was?

Speaker 6 (52:55):
I think he wanted to be seen as an evil
movie character, but he's so charismatic that you would see
like even in court, the court officers like with Goolburn,
glad he hand him, women loved him. Think about it, Jacob. Okay,
so here's a surprise to you. Not to give away
this little nugget, but one of my favorite stories is

(53:18):
the unlikely love entanglement that takes place and in the
jail in Utah and the county lockup when Jacob's third
wife and we spoke to her sister in the podcast.
She was one of the women who escaped polygamy, and
escaping polygamy would be the show.

Speaker 9 (53:35):
That just came to me, of course.

Speaker 6 (53:37):
But the Hannah Tucker allegedly fell to the Lion and
she started to visit the lion.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
In prison, the deception.

Speaker 6 (53:53):
In court, and then Jacob decided to flip. So we
don't know if that's why Jacob decided. Now I will
say that Haucker Handa Tucker has factly denied any love
interest in the Lion and said that this was just
made up as part of the case. But it's certainly

(54:13):
interesting that she was visiting the Lion, and he is
incredibly characteristic. There is something, you know, alluring about him,
which is why I think he was so successful at
fraud because we could brent people over to his side
pretty easily. He's very handsome, he was very generous. I

(54:34):
can tell you all a hundred stories about people that
he helped out with a generosity. He's just he's one
of those like Robin Hood figures, like like we talked
about Gotti, John Gotty throwing the fireworks and the barbecues
and Howard Beach.

Speaker 9 (54:47):
He was that in the community. Yeah, yeah, and I.

Speaker 6 (54:51):
Think the Lion had that persona in the Armenian community,
which is very very tight knit and parochial.

Speaker 9 (54:58):
They definitely take care of.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
Her, right. Interesting.

Speaker 5 (55:04):
I am so happy we got to hear like this
this preview. It felt like a behind the scenes look.
So we're just, you know, really thankful that you spent
some time with us. Michelle, Yes, this was fine.

Speaker 6 (55:20):
I want us to like go out now and.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Hang out, go out and just like we should have
some champagne and I don't know, maybe it's just get
in a bar fight or something you imagine. Yeah, right,
I would totally have your back. You're like, hold my earring.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
I would hold them. Oh my gosh, it's amazing.

Speaker 5 (55:46):
Listen if anyone wants to hear the rest of what
happens in Michelle McPhee's podcast, Kingdom of Fraud, get it
where you get your podcast, you know how to do it.
And also you can follow Michelle well with one L
conveniently on instant Twitter. Just Michelle McPhee.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
So said yes and listen. Coming up, we've got a
young girl who.

Speaker 5 (56:12):
Is trafficked to Texas who allegedly spent sixteen years trapped
in forced labor. True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
So, Courtney a.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Bit of a setup for us, go ahead, tell us,
tell us everything.

Speaker 5 (56:43):
Well, this is a labor trafficking story and we'll get
into the details, but the crux of it is that
there is forced labor. It's literally slavery going on in
our country today right now, actual slavery.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
So there was it's a new piece. It was in
the New Yorker.

Speaker 5 (57:01):
It was written by someone named Yudijit Buddhacharji, and this
highlights the story of a girl. She was eight years
old at the time. Her name is Gina, and she
was trafficked from her home in Guyana all the way
to Texas. She lived an actual life of servitude and

(57:22):
she was there for yes. So this girl Gina, she
grew up in Rolla, Gana. She's eight years old when
her father, who was a loyal aid to a government official,
he hands it her over at eight years old to
the family of another government official. And it was as
a domestic servant. So he hands his eight year old over.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (57:43):
She then flies by herself to Texas and then she's
met by the government official's family and who they claim that,
oh Gina, this little girl, she's a niece, and we're
so great, we're rescuing her from poverty. Cut to for
sixteen years in Dallas, Texas. The five biological children of

(58:09):
the family, they all went to school. They were fine. Gina,
she was isolated. She was forced labor from six thirty
am morning until night. She cooked, she cleaned, she slept
on a floor mattress. She wore rags eight by herself.
This is in our country.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Cinderella, right, But you're hearing this story of Cinderella. What
did the held against her will? This is Insanity Court
near Armstrong.

Speaker 5 (58:38):
No, it's horrifying. And this was all again in the middle.
They lived in a mansion, really a gorgeous house, and
while doing all of this unpaid labor, she was physically abused.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
She was whipped with.

Speaker 5 (58:51):
Power cords, and this went on for sixteen years, and
the family took her passport away and chapter she was
entirely trapped with nothing. And then it was after all
of these many many years that she formed a friendship
with a neighbor who finally realized, you know, there had

(59:11):
been red flags coming up all over the place, and
finally action was taken. But I just want to I
wanted to highlight again that this is happening in our
country and because we do talk about Epstein for example,
a lot, right, and it is very important absolutely, However,

(59:33):
with trafficking, seventy seven percent of people who are trafficked,
they are forced into labor rather than sex trafficking, and
it's not very talked about subjects. Some people think it's snoozy,
or some people it doesn't make the headlines.

Speaker 4 (59:51):
Because when I was reading like the headlines for tonight
and it said labor trafficking, I was like, ah, snoozefest.
Oh my god, I was so wrong right away.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Traffic in general is like a little bit of a
blind spot for everyone. So I think we're learning a
bit more about it through the Epstein files, et cetera.
But it immediately elicits sex. Obviously, it's sex trafficking. We
don't think about as just trafficking as a general thing
where thousands of human beings are trafficked daily and they're

(01:00:22):
being enslaved literally to be thrown in the basement and
given food and water to do all the things that
somebody else doesn't want to and that cannot be allowed
period obviously. So I think we're all kind of soaking
in the reality that is a very real topic that

(01:00:42):
needs to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
Be discussed, agreed.

Speaker 10 (01:00:45):
When we first when I think we've talked about it earlier,
or when someone mentioned it, I naturally assumed it was
sex trafficking, So.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
I agreeing, I think was the one.

Speaker 10 (01:00:53):
Yeah, she brought that to our attention, But I would
love to just wrap up that. I'd love to understand
what happened with the end result with her Is she
okay now?

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
Well, it led to because again she was beaten over
these sixteen years, and there was one particularly violent assault
by the woman of the house that happened and Gina
she fled in the night. She had only her expired
passport and a duffel bag of cash that she.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Had been able to squander around.

Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
So ultimately, with the help of neighbors, there was a
Houston nonprofit who alerted the State departments Diplomatic Security Service.
But there were tons of hurdles because she was kept
out of any site. She'd never went to school again,
and was not brought to doctors, and so there were

(01:01:50):
no public records, so even her identification was hard. And
then ultimately they did as you said, go to trial
and the couple who they were sentenced to seven years,
they got out a little early.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
They faced years. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
Wow, they were ordered to pay three hundred thousand dollars
in restitution. They paid less than four thousand dollars. Of course,
there's a total dirt bags.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
You're going to take a child and put that child
in your home and be your dirt bag. Yeah, and
now you get to pay four thousand dollars in a
couple of years in jail. Meanwhile, there are people that
are stuck behind bars, who have done nothing wrong, who
just can't afford an attorney. This is why I'm again
not to belabor the point. I'm really disgrateful that we're

(01:02:42):
talking about it because Boddy, you and I didn't know
of trafficking as like an enslavement tactic.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
You weren't aware of that, like with the chicken factories
and the of the a little bit, but nothing like this.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
I didn't know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:59):
This was no idea, no idea, I'm stopped.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
I's happened.

Speaker 5 (01:03:06):
Yeah, So so there we have it with that, So
just something to be aware of. And also if you
do suspect anything. Again, there were red flags over the
course of a decade and a half. Call the National
Human Trafficking Hotline. You can look it up. They have
helped identify hundreds of thousands of victims since its inception.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
So just a question for the current because we've talked
about so many cases around this, like this, parent abuse,
et cetera. If you are a human and this is
a question, I do not have the answer. So I'm
not asking a rhetorical question. So you're living in your house,
you're sleeping in your bed, all is right in the world,

(01:03:49):
and suddenly there's a bang on the door, a bang,
bing bang, and you go to the door. You have
a ring camera and a bat because that's what.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
We do, right. We have a flashlight.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Please do you have a bat or some kind of
a weapon under your bed or nearby, but just something
like a heavy flashlight.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
You have all these.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Things, but you're woken in the middle of the night
and there's a young child banging on your door in
the middle of the night.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
What do you do?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
With all the cases that we've covered not with children
who have been mercilessly abused, and I would have running
into the closest neighbor's house begging for help. Yet we've
also covered cases where that exact same scenario is totally
to play you and bust into your house and hold
you hostage and your children and your family.

Speaker 4 (01:04:43):
It's a scam.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
That's my first scam there. It's literally a scam.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
We've covered cases like this and then they tie you
up and all the things.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
I would call one, what are we supposed to nine?

Speaker 11 (01:04:55):
One?

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
One might not answer in Los Angeles. They're not going
to answer.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
It and answer Nashville like this, there are on it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
They would answer in Vegas immediately. Yeah, yeah, I don't
know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Well, my personal experience, we can nine one one should
answer quick and they should be there immediately. In some
cities that's not always the case. So what do you do?

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Do you let them in if someone's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Banging on your door? I think we're answering this for
ourselves right now. Real time is you call the authorities
without answering the door, call the cops.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
I would that the answer?

Speaker 10 (01:05:36):
Okay, Yeah, I don't know if I would, I think
I would bring the child in.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
It's just it'd be hard not to help.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
It would be hard.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
I would call the cops first, immediately.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
I agree, Well, stick around, we have more to dig into.
Keep it right here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
True Crime Tonight, Welcome back the True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio.
We're here all night long with Body Moving and Courtney Armstrong.
We've had some weird technical stuff happening this evening. Do

(01:06:11):
we think it's in the stars? Is it the moon?
This is a tide? I know it's never actually happened
this exact night. She's most likely put up a pool.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
For the summer. She put up her.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Above ground pool for summer, laid beside it, and suddenly
all has gone awry.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
What do you think of this?

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Courtney, come to the stand, tell us I mean guilty
at charge.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
She's radiating heat, candles on fire.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
To talk back.

Speaker 12 (01:06:50):
Hey guys, it's Julia from South Carolina and I'm calling
regarding Murdoch. But I'm really tired of hearing about everybody
about who could have killed Paul and Maggie because Alex
did it. And if he didn't do it, then instead

(01:07:11):
of his lawyers chasing down the jurors after the trial
to plant seeds about jury tampering, the lawyers and Alex
would have been trying to figure out who killed Paul
and Maggie. So makes that make sense?

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
Julia totally with her speaking my language, girls speaking our lage,
my language. So yeah, if if Alec mrdall did not
do this, this crime, this murderer, then yeah, you would
think that while he's behind bars, his team instead of
hunting down this Corekirk clerk for campering with the jury,
they would be trying to find the real killers, just

(01:07:53):
like oh Jason or he would.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Be focusing on that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Why is he personally focused on and finding the killer
of his beloved wife and beloved son? Right, can you
imagine anything worse than your son and your wife being murdered?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Why?

Speaker 5 (01:08:11):
I mean, if you did it, If you did it,
then you didn't think that was the worst option on
the table.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
Like if Maggie and Paul deserve justice, right in his mind,
and if they if he didn't kill them, you would
think he would be fighting every last breath to try
to find the real killers. Like, you know, she makes
a great point, She makes an excellent point.

Speaker 5 (01:08:33):
I think, right, totally and honestly that I know people
and and you know, more than a handful thought. Oh,
the defense maybe they kind of got in bed with
this clerk and like it was collusion, but it wouldn't be.
I mean, it would be disbarment for the lawyers.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
It would be.

Speaker 5 (01:08:52):
And also the clerk was officially found to have done
similarly shady things in other case.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
So I don't see any I don't see yeah any there.
I agree with the talkback.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
I agree with you, Courtney. I agree that Alex Murdoll
is likely the you know, as as he's been convicted
now overturned right as he was, as he's been charged.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
I do believe it's him. And listen, do you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Think that son says his buster, his remaining son is living,
who's had to live through a trial that you know,
was about his younger brother and his mother. He has
stood by his father. Do you think any of these
shenanigans behind closed doors has played an influence on his opinion?

(01:09:39):
I mean, what's he going to say? I don't believe
in my father. It's a tough, horrible position to be in.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
It is.

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
I'm I'm sure it's probably given him some kind of
relief to know that the conviction, you know, he's going
to get a retrial, right, like some glimmer of hope
that maybe he might have a family again.

Speaker 6 (01:09:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:09:59):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:00):
It's really sad because I don't think that's going to
happen for him, but it's probably given him maybe a
little bit of hope. I mean, all the shenanigans kind
of behind the scenes are have all been in in
Alex's benefit, right, true? Right, So I mean I think

(01:10:21):
I think he's probably a okay with it. I don't know,
just my opinion.

Speaker 10 (01:10:27):
Just well, it's a case that everyone a lot of
our listeners have been calling us and leaving talkbacks about
so do you want to hear another one.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
About this case?

Speaker 10 (01:10:35):
This is one of the hotter ones. Let's hear more.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
That's hi, ladies, I love you guys. I'm calling from Brooklyn.

Speaker 11 (01:10:42):
This is about Alex Murder maybe playing off his drug adviction.
I'm a recovering drug addict, and nine out of ten times,
usually a drug addict is going to deny, deny, deny, deny,
lie Light light light, So I would take that into
consideration too. Love you guys, I love First.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
Of all, I'm so proud of you. Congratulations.

Speaker 4 (01:11:03):
I'm proud of you too.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Do it from abuse of any kind. It's such a
high five, and nobody really recognizes it. All the time
you get, you know, some like minor praise, but it's
such a big deal and congratulations.

Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
And yeah, you're And she's right, like I mean, I
only have experience, very limited experience with addiction, and but
it was in you know, my close family, my media family,
and she's right, deny lie lie lie, No, no, you know.
And it's not that they're necessarily lying, per se, it's
that they're in denial themselves at times, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
It's not even a lie.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
And by the way, I say this anecdotically, and I
don't mean anything foul to anybody who's struggling right now.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
With drugs or recovery. It is just a liar's sports.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
And if you're on drugs or in recovery, I hear
you know, you hear me. That is the name of
the game, right it's it's lie, Lie, Lie, And people
get so good at it. And that's so difficult by
the way. They're so good at it because they're you know,
trying to recover from something else in their self medicating
my two cents, But I feel for anyone who's fighting

(01:12:23):
that fight, and yes to anyone who's recovered or is
on the road too. But all that to be said, yeah,
like a little bit of lying is a part of
the shtick, and sometimes people you love get really good
at it, and that's really.

Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
Hard, you know. Great point, because Alex was really great
at lying, right. Part of the financial schemes and crimes
that he committed were based in that, you know, so
he's been convicted for that pretty much. I mean, bottom.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Line, being a liar a million, but being a drug
addicted liar is very different than murdering wife and your son.

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):
I'm talking about the financial big yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
No, but that's a big this is the case, right,
because ultimately these financial crimes that he was liar, liar,
pants on fire. He was stealing hand over fist with
people he knew well who he was looking in the
eye and saying, don't you worry trust me, and was
screwing them over which again, this is financial fraud, but

(01:13:27):
for some this is the equivalent of death. You're taking
away every dollar I've ever earned in one swoop because
of your lies and your drug addiction. It's very serious
that now potentially being removed from his next trial, and
we're only basing it on his criminal potential in this

(01:13:48):
exact crime that night. That's the part where I get
annoyed by the system a little bit, because the totality
of him at that time I think is really important.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
And by him I mean Alex Murda, right.

Speaker 5 (01:14:03):
But my understanding of what the what the judge said
in their overturning of the conviction of Alex Murda for
murder murder, murder murder was you know, a the the
court clerk getting her hands in and the jury, but
also that they could still present the financial problems and difficulties.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
They just can't. They said that they kind of beat
the horse dead, So I think it is. But by
the way, it was a really big horse.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Seeing Alex Murda be called to the carpet and basically
having to confess to being a.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Huge liar and a drug addict in.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
A full sweat on the stand that he's been denying
any wrongdoing the entire time is telling you're not taking
accountability for anything. So, yes, that's the drugs, that's the money,
that's the business, legacy business, I might add, But yeah,
I don't know. I don't know where you go from

(01:15:03):
here with a straight face. If I'm Alex Murda, I
feel like I might have a clean slate moving forward,
right or wrong. I just think that if i'm his
defense attorney field Day, I'm not agreeing with it. I'm
just saying it's a fact. And if I'm the prosecution,
I'm nervous.

Speaker 10 (01:15:22):
Yeah, I'm super curious about whatever this new evidence is
that they're going to be presenting.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
So I think it's going to have something to do
with third party culpability. Is just stick or is that
just the company line. If there's third party of culpability,
that would be awesome in terms of we'll see this
trial being pushed forward.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
Right, We'll see what they allow because they still have
to right all the pre trial stuff.

Speaker 7 (01:15:47):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:15:47):
We'll see what they allow because they don't often allow that.
You gotta have some kind of evidence. So we'll see.

Speaker 10 (01:15:55):
We'll keep watching it. This is one that I know
where all of our listeners have been following. But that
last listener that sent the talk back was talking about
overcoming addiction. I have another one that I want you
guys to hear where it's in that same real Help
if you'll like it.

Speaker 13 (01:16:11):
Hello, I'm my favorite truth Seekers.

Speaker 14 (01:16:13):
It's Amanda from Mississippi. Today, I just want to get
some happy news. I am a combat vet. I am
also a retired rin and a marine biologist, and needless
to say, I have been through some things in my
life about alcoholism for nearly twenty years and today is

(01:16:34):
my one year sober and I have lost one hundred
and five pounds.

Speaker 13 (01:16:38):
So I am going to see the plastic purgeon today
to get my three sixty tummy tuck. Whoo, it's a
good day today. I love you guys, and I hope
that just makes you happy and a little file on
your face because there are good things in the world.

Speaker 14 (01:16:54):
Happy, so day to me, Fanda.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
Happy you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
It just like a cue the smoke machine in the
disco ball. And by the way, what great God, it's
a great I.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
Get choked up.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
I'm so proud of you. You are a gangster.

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
It's like this. The comeback is so you.

Speaker 4 (01:17:19):
It's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
You fall off the horse, I did you get back
on it and you be victorious.

Speaker 3 (01:17:26):
And she's so hard done.

Speaker 4 (01:17:29):
Love that skin removal. She's lost so much weight.

Speaker 5 (01:17:32):
Three sixty temmy tuck. Yeah, I think I get all
tucked back in, Amanda. We are so thrilled and happy.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
And proud to know you. Like that's all that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
And next time you call in, give us the how.
What's the reasons how? Because again, it's so many, there's
so many schools of thought. It takes so much bravery
and courage to conquer something. I honestly, I'm going to
say it, I don't know how I didn't make a
left turn and become a drug addict. There were times
that it easily could have been a left turn. And

(01:18:04):
I'm just going to be honest about it. It's literally
the weird turn on a weird day, surrounded by the
right people at the right time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:14):
That it didn't go sideways. It could have.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
There's no judgment. I literally have zero judgment. It could
have gone that way. It just didn't. And I can't
even explain it. So for someone to go left and
then take a stop and have to go through all
the hard work to get clean and get sober and
put a year under your belt and then start anew

(01:18:40):
is so inspiring. It's what books are made of, That's
what movies should be made of. You should be so
proud of yourself and anyone struggling march on.

Speaker 4 (01:18:51):
That's right. And I thought, you know, Amanda, if you're
still listening, and I hope you are, but if you
get this surgery, and I'm assuming it's skin removal of
it is symbolic too. You're shedding yourself, right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:04):
You're kind of shedding that skin that you no longer wear.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
So people love people who have been through it. We
love everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
Thank you for bearing with any of the technical issues
for the evening. We will see you on Sunday.