A paddleboarder vanishes on a quiet Maine pond—48-year-old Sunny Stewart’s death is ruled a homicide, but answers remain scarce. A listener question about Epstein sends the team down a rabbit hole. Plus: Karen Read, freshly acquitted, lands a book deal and TV rights. What’s real, what’s spin, and what’s coming next? Tune in for all the details.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It is Monday, July fourteenth. Guess what,
we have a stacked night of headlines. I don't know
about you, guys. I'm feeling so mad about this Epstein mess.
It just seems to never end. And again, we do
not seal lists to protect justice. We seal lists to
(00:42):
protect power. And we're going to get knee deep into
the new developments in that case that we were following
so closely last night. Also some new developments in the
Idaho student murders. Have a hearing this week. In another
next week, Courtney's going to fill us in a bit
more about that. And Karen Reid, who as we all know,
was not guilty in her second trial last month. She
(01:03):
has scored herself a book deal, so more details on that.
And we're also going to dig into a case kind
of for the first time about a potential serial killer
in Maine, and that one comes straight from esther our
Crime crew listener, thank you for sharing your info, and
we're about to dig in Tier one. I'm Stephanie Lai
Decker and i head up Katie Studios where we make
(01:26):
true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do
that with Courtney Armstrong and body move in here every
night and we want to hear from you eight eight
eight three one crime, So please jump in join the conversation,
or you could always hit us up on our socials
at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And also if you
(01:49):
want to leave us a talkback, which is kind of
like a voice memo, all you have to do is
download the iHeart app for free and in the top
right hand corner you push this button leave us a
message and boom, you are on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
So I won't belabor. In fact, we have a talk
back right now.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Hey, this is Stephanie from Alabama. I just want to
say that I absolutely love the show. So I have
a question in relation to Brian Koberger. Do you think
that the reason that his plea deal was changed so
abruptly was because the media was shifting their focus from
him to the things that were going on such as
the politician shootings with Bolter and then the Travis Decker manhunt.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
That is an interesting perspective and an interesting point. Yeah,
I totally see where you're coming from on that one, Boddy,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It is interesting? But I don't think that those other
crimes and the media focusing attention on those crimes have
anything to do with the plea deal. The trial is
getting ready to start, the judge gave fair warning that
the last best offer was to be expected and at
the you know, at the end of June, early July,
and so the deadline was fast approaching, and they hit
(02:56):
it right at the deadline, hours before gas before right,
And I mean, let's be real, I think that even
though like things are in the media, like Travis Decker,
I mean, those things are still going to be in
the media, But the Coburger trial would have one hundred
percent taken over crime news once it started. So I
don't necessarily think media attention anything to do with it.
I think it was just the normal process, and the
deadline was approaching, you know, I just think it's the
(03:19):
normal process.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Yeah, By the way, Stephanie, great name and great question
and also particularly salient question given all of the what's news,
what's real that's going on in the universe right now,
So well timed, but I will double down on Body,
and I think it simply had to do with the
timeline that already was stipulated and Brian Cooberger, he was
(03:41):
not winning anything that his defense was putting forth.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Nothing was getting pushed.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
They weren't accepting the alternate perpetrators, and the.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Death penalty was not getting removed. They denied that order.
There were so many emotions that were getting denied, and
you know, quite honestly, not his favorite. His backup was
literally up against the wall, and he either accepted it
and they went to trial and rolled dice or take
the deal. And family members of the victims have continued
to come out with what they think about this plea deal, which,
(04:14):
as Body just said, takes off the death penalty for
murdering the four University of Idaho students. So Xanna Kernodle's mother,
she's broken her silence, and she acknowledged that she was
at first upset, and she said, I felt like I
wouldn't get any more any answers. But now I see
that the Lord had his hand in it. And it
(04:36):
turns out that she was actually with a group of
really close friends from church when she heard it, and
she felt that that was kind of a sign that
that was where she needed to be. So that is
where Xana Kernodle's mother falls. Separately, Xanna Kernodle's father. He
said he does disagree with the deal because it does
(04:56):
not require Coburger to give.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
Any ann or allocate am I saying.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That, Yeah, the allocation, I could not agree more. It's
so upsetting to me. Also, again, I'm a little teed
up tonight, so I apologize in advance, but yeah, like,
how do you get a plea deal as a killer
who murdered four completely innocent people without having to give
any details as to why that night? Like what can
(05:23):
we learn from this? Why that night? What was the
inciting incident in his personal life? Not suggesting there was
one with the victims, but.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Like why that night? Why that morning?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I should say, it just upsets me that this guy
still calls the shots. And I'm hoping that on this
hearing coming up this week, we get a little indication
that that's not the case, because right now it feels
like where Brian Coberger is sitting, he's sort of the
man who gets to kind of get his way and
decide who lives, who dies, and who hears what or doesn't.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
And it's upsetting. And I think this is going to
sound little maybe wild, but I think he kind of
maybe enjoys the idea of the parents through this, and
that's you know, and that's one of the things. Like
the Chapins aren't going to the sentencing, and I kind
of I just have so much respect for all the family.
I mean, they've battled this very well, every single member,
(06:20):
but the Chapins man, they just they have so much
grace and they're so smart. They're just like, we're not
going to give him the satisfaction. And I really respect that,
I really do. I kind of just get the feeling
that he likes the idea that he's still inflicting some
kind of feelings onto people.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, And it's like a narcissistic psychotic tendency where there's
this energy that he's still being fed, like the beast
is being fed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Right. I totally agree he didn't really make any impressions
on people otherwise, I just feel like they're taking their
power back by not letting Brian Coberger get to them.
Does that make sense? It does, Yeah, it does make sense.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
And I still think that Prosecutor Bill Thompson will need
to answer to this. May not be the right phrasing,
but I think he needs to answer to this because
it does.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
See, it's the worst deal in history. If there's no
allocution or you know, some kind of unpack of why
this happened, it's the worst deal in history.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
That's right, this is true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker.
We were just talking about the Idaho college murder case
and we are going to be continuing on with headlines.
But listen, we want to hear from you. Give us
a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime or
(07:39):
hit us on the talkbacks. Body, what else in the news? Epstein, Epstein, Epstein,
epstation can't take it?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
You know, you're a fish. I am, I'm you know.
I never followed this. It just I know it's crime,
and obviously when he's in prison, right, it's obviously a crime.
It just wasn't like, I think we all have different
interests when it comes to crime, you know, and I'm
usually kind of on the murder side of things, you know,
and this wasn't that, And I just had so many
other things on my plate that it just never But
(08:09):
now I'm on board, you know. Now I'm with you, Stephanie,
I'm with you. So Delaine Maxwell, the Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice
in all the sex trafficking and you know, bad deeds,
her hideout hits the market. Her one hundred and fifty
six acre New Hampshire property where she was arrested in
twenty twenty has been for sale for two point five
(08:31):
million dollars, which is, you know, really a lot higher
than the one point one million purchase price back in
December of twenty nineteen. She purchased the estate under the
alias Janet Marshall and through an LLC linked her and
then partners thought organ Stone. I got to get into this.
Were they not together? Were no?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
They had like divorced And by the way, this also
makes me crazy. So Gilaine Maxwell, Yeah, she's obviously serving
a sentence behind bars and now she's going to make
a little cash on this house. But she was married,
and we don't really know much of him. My assertion
is that they were no longer together and had divorced,
but I would like to know more about that, if
anybody listening has any more details.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
There is public uncertainty on who's going to profit from this,
whether it's going to go to her legal defense or
be allocated to her victims, because she can't profit.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And you and I were just talking about this ps
you know, just in the parallel universe that I feel
like we all find ourselves in. She's like trying to
speak and go ahead, fill us in because it so
all seems too connected.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Obviously, I'm on board now, right, So I'm reading all
about it today and she is appealing her conviction and
it's all the way to the Supreme Court. It was
denied at the lower courts, but it made it to
the Supreme Court. Well, the DOJ had to respond by today,
which is crazy. Coincidence, I mean, is it? Is it?
(09:53):
I don't know?
Speaker 6 (09:54):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
There's no coincidences, And this is again not political. I
find myself in a posthetic spot that I'm right in the
middle of not knowing anything and who to trust in anyone,
and it's so upsetting. So, I mean, all hundreds of
girls were sexually abused underage.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
It is a ring.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
We know this arguably maybe the largest ring in the world.
How are we not getting this information? And Gilaine Maxwell
is going to get her household from twenty something just well,
it's the whole Glaine thing.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
So apparently the Epstein pled Okay, so he took a
plea deal, and part of that plea deal was that
none of his co conspirators would be prosecuted. Okay, that's
part of the deal. Well, Glaine Maxwell is been prosecuted.
Her argument to the courts is like, what am I
doing here? I thought the plea deal said that nobody
(10:47):
was going to else was going to be prosecuted. So
that's kind of like a really like lame unpack of
her argument.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Okay, but she's been behind bars for many years now,
I know the fact that it suddenly is a hot
ticket item, then her no docket is I think interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Would love to hear everybody's opinion.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Also, the fact that she's, you know, according to the
recent developments by you know, Pam Bondy, et cetera, that
you know she's serving time for I guess a crime
that didn't exist, given that there's no real list. So yeah,
of course it's a woman that's serving the time for
dirty deeds done by gentlemen of power.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
Well, she had her hands were plenty.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, and she should serve the time, and like, we
should let this rest and let her rot behind bars.
And I'm all for it, you know, But it just
seems like the thing that is slipping through the cracks
and is like getting lost in the sauce in the
media is that there were two hundred plus young curls.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Well, just because there's no client list doesn't mean there
weren't clients though, right, Like, yeah, listen, if I'm doing
illegal things, and I'm not, but if I were to
be doing legal things, I'm not going to keep track
of it. I'm not going to have a list of
like my customers. I'm going to have them in my head.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Well, if you're using it as a revenge tool and
using it as blackmail and high profile, you don't know
why scenarios allegedly allegedly allegedly, then you know what, you
might have a list.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
You might but we don't know that that's what's happening.
We think that's what's happening. I mean, I'm on board
with you with that. I think it is very possible
that he was like this double agent, you know that
was I feel, oh yeah, and we're all frustrated.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
So does everybody. It is the actual definition. I do
think it's an overused word, but it is perfectly applied
to this.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Because it's literally something.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
You see the light flashing, Bondie saying, I have the list,
It's on my desk, cut to no, it's not there.
But listen, everyone stick around. When we come back, we're
going to be diving back into Epstein.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
There is still a lot to unpack.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
There's a lot doing with the fallout of the Karen
read trial, and there's the saga of Turtle Boy, which
was kind of the story within the story of the
Karen Reid story. Keep it here on True Crime Tonight
eight at eight three One Crime.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body move in and the phones are buzzing.
So first up, we have a caller, Hi, Welcome to
the show. Hi, Glenn, Yes, tell us everything Glenn, I.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Think that's great. I'm seventy six years old and I'm
doing fine, excellent, and.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
We're glad you called. Thank you for calling. What's your question?
Speaker 7 (13:38):
Yes, I think the reason the Epstein files are not
going to be distributed because Trump's on them. I'm sorry,
President Trump is on them, and that's why they're never
going to be revealed.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Why would he say he was going to So this
is where I get so nuts, Glenn, and ladies please
jump in, because let's be honest, right, there's a lot
of very high profile people, whether it's our current president
or previous president's.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
You know, it seems like that list might have been long.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And why would he say he was going to release
it knowing full well that he was possibly on it.
We've seen so many photographs of them all together. Clearly,
just beaucause you're photograph doesn't mean you're a pedophile. But still,
I just feel like that's so confusing, and I don't
know that I disagree with you.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Thank you for the call, Glenn, And I want to
say it's probably because he was never planning on releasing
it was never going to happen. I don't believe he
was ever going to listen. Presidents lie to us all
the time. I mean not just President Trump, but all
of them. How many times have we been like he
you literally just said this five minutes ago, and now
you're saying you didn't. I mean all the time. And
(14:49):
I just think it was never going to get released.
Biden wasn't never going to release it, true Trump, even
though he ran on it and said I'm going to
release it, because Biden's been sitting on it was is
never going to happen.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
And the running on the running on things not an
exact parallel. But listen, politicians do they go for election
in poetry and then they govern in prose.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, So that said poetic Courtney, I'm strong, arm strong, listen.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
But Courtney and I are addicted to the West Way. Yes, okay,
so we know all the quotes.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
Okay, but it is when you're going for election, you say,
and to Body's point, it's every politician known to man,
I am going to say exactly what you want to
hear in order to get you where I need you
to be, and then things change. So I firmly agreed
he had no universe.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
He was going to open this.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Let me ask, though, are we all going to agree
in this most tenuous time in my life at least
and most of our lives, right that the world's gone nuts.
Everything seems upside down. There's floods, there's fires, the planes
are falling out of the sky. And again, this is
not a political show. In order we even try to,
I wouldn't stand a day. I believe in love, in
(16:01):
peace and unity, and that's kind of my personal goal.
But man, is it upsetting that there's just no island
to hold on to. Pu not intended, but like maybe
we all collectively on every side of it, can finally
say like enough is enough.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Let's call it something else other than politics.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Let's call it, you know, cohesiveness or I'm the cohesive president.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I don't know, but there is just.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Like the divide is not helping and the lies are enough.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
But I think that this specific subject, I don't think
it's you know, Republican versus Democrat. I think because that's
what they were like playing against each other. But I
think like the Epstein thing, though, I think all of
us are upset, like.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Now, all of us absolutely, maybe for the first time,
we could all agree on this.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You know, it's like what brings country.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
Maybe this is the island that we hold on to,
Stephanie Epstein's island.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think we have a talk.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
Back ay true crime tonight. I just wanted to say that.
I think it's crazy how people thought Trump was going
to release the Epstein list when in his first term
he had Alex Acosta and his cabinet and that's the
guy who gave Jeffrey Epstein his plea deal back in
two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
What and he.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Also had Alan Drschowitz as his impeachment lawyer, who was
obviously Epstein's defense lawyer. So what kind of forward eachest
did these people think Trump was playing here?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Do we have the smartest listeners?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, that's a great Did you notice I talk
about connecting those dots and you know earlier, thank you
Glenn for your call too. But that's very complicated and
very accurate. Well, and you noticed he didn't leave his
name for his own safety, right?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yea off this show real time? No, but he makes
it a point, right? And isn't it interesting the men
call for Epstein.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's interesting because I find that really refreshing, I know,
because a woman, Yeah, it feels like nobody cares about
the victims, and I know we all do say we
care about sex trafficking ooh, and like underage victims ooh,
but it's so gross and hideous. And to know that,
like yeah, that you know, men are beginning to rally
with everybody and like enough is enough, Like we can
(18:05):
do better, we can do better.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
He makes a great point too about you know Dershowitz,
and it's all intertwined and it's very can we so
go ahead of court?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Sorry, Oh, I was gonna say to make sure I
understood it fully, and like let's really break that down.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
So one more thing. And I really do love this
talk back as well. So been reading up on Dershwitz
today and yeah, he has said point blank, this was
back in March. I know the names of the individuals.
I know why are they're being suppressed. I know who's
suppressing them, but I'm bound by confidentiality from a judge
and the cases and I can't disclose. But I know
(18:42):
the names of the people whose files are being suppressed
in order to protect them.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And let me ask you. So.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
He was the defense attorney of Epstein back when he
was brought up on his initial charges in West Palm Beach.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Am I getting that correct or not correct?
Speaker 6 (18:58):
No, he was a little but not the puppet strings.
But he was not barred. He could not practice law
in Florida.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Oh right. He helped set.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Up the entire legal team and he was also, wasn't he,
like Trump, one of Trump's impeachment lawyers?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yes? I didn't realize that. Yes, now Acosta, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Let's go there, because I want to make sure I'm
tracking this correctly.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I don't really understand his involvement. He was the former
secretary of Labor. How does he fit into this? He
was what I.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Think he signed off on the plea deal initially and maybeary.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Of labor signing off on a plea deal? Was he
something else at the time? Great question? A former member.
I wish our talk back would call us right back?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
There was something? Was there a connection to Bill Clinton
in this one? Because edge of.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
My seat, I have another one here? Okay, So this
was a quick google because I did not know the answer.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It is.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
It's a lot to look into Alex Acosta. So, yes,
he was the former Labor secretary. However it was what
he was a US attorney in Florida. Oh, that's when
cave sex trafficker Epstein a non prosecution agreement, which is.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
What Delanne maxwell is the best.
Speaker 9 (20:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Wait, so the non prosecution agreement that was given by
Acosta back in the day basically says he gets away
with it and then he goes on Jeffrey Epstein to
go traffic more and hundreds more women after that, when
everyone knows full well that he had already been charged
on sex crimes with underage girls.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 8 (20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Uh, oh my god, it's so gross. Do we think
this list ever existed? Like for real?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Of course everyone's talking about this idea.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I'm new to this. I'm new to this. You gotta
give me some grace.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
And I have to say that, Stephanie, you asked me
earlier before we were on the air.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You're like, aren't you angry?
Speaker 6 (20:51):
And I don't know if numbs the right answer, but
I in my mind, I believe in such a certainty
that sort of power corrupts an absolute corrupts absolutely. And
this is the biggest thing that I've seen to prove
that in such a way. And it's a horrible thing.
And they say it's a pessimistic look at life to your.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Point, I'm kind of numb to it. I'm just like, Eh,
it doesn't because like, yeah, I'm angry, But at the
same time, I expect it.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I know, it's like, think about it, what are we expecting?
We're just like numb to the idea that potentially very influential,
potential world leaders are having sex with underage girls as
a ring to benefit or profit worldwide is horrifying if
that's the baseline, you know, all of like the conspiracy
(21:36):
theories of Yesterdaear that we all used to roll our
eyes out. I'm like, oh, oh my god, is there
some like where is the truth in this? It's not
like we're talking about, oh, the Academy award was rigged,
or we're talking about ooh, like that person got fired
for you know, misspeaking. It's people make mistakes. Of course,
people misspeak. I do it every night, and I really
(21:56):
learn and try to do the right thing. This is
a very real crime at a very real inflection point
as a country, and I think we all got I'm
on a soapbox right now. I just think we all
you're making better and can do better, and I hope
somebody steps forward that can kind of be a shining
light during what seems like a really dark time. And
(22:18):
to know that everybody and their brother on every side
and every position of power has some sort of you
know two dot connection to pedophilia? Is Is this so
yucky that I don't even it makes me choked up?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Right now? I need a time out. Let's talk about
where's Blake Lively? Need some more lighthearted news? Right?
Speaker 8 (22:38):
No?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I mean, Stephanie, we're on your side, Like no, I know,
I don't know why. It's like I just had.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
The politicsmolitics, and it's like always like it also bums
me out that we're also accustomed to just being like, well,
that's politics for you. It's like politics are running our lives.
We all work so hard and we pay hard taxes
and life is not easy and people are really suffering
and the climate's crazy and this is crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's like what do we believe? You know? Is it
fake news? Is it real news? Is it Instagram? Is
it fake?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Are we double sourcing stuff? I listened to Fox, I
listened to CNN. I watch every possible news source I
could possibly get my hands on. I listened to Reddit,
you know it, just in hopes of aggregating the meat
and potatoes so that there's some middle zone. And like,
I'm not running for office, but I want to look
up to somebody.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
But why do we need to have like a master's
degree in like comprehension to find out what the real
news is? Why do you have to go why do
you have to aggregate the news? Why are you having
to do that? Because it is so divided and everybody
has an agenda as soon as there's a mass shooting.
Oh he was a Republican. Oh he was a Democratic.
It's like people can't just go sit back and just
(23:43):
wait for things to come in. They have to jump
forward and just blame me the other side. And it's
getting old, and it's.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Getting old, and maybe I'm all collectively just like this
is maybe an inflection point I think it might be,
and listen to jump in, like, please tell me how
wrong I am. I get it, and you know, let's
all sort of maybe this can be a place that
we can all huddle together and share our thoughts and
you know, maybe solve some stuff and get some justice.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, well we're going to see if we can do that.
So although Karen Reid might not be guilty, the journalist
who popularized her case is just starting to defend himself
from all sorts of criminal charges. We'll be diving into
the story of the controversial Turtle Boy, and later we
want to hear from you. Give us a call at
eight thirty one Crime. We'll be right back. Keep it
right here on two Prid.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Tonight, and I'm taking a deep breath trying to kind
of cool it. So we'll put a pin and all
things Epstein. But we do have some other cases that
we'll be following later in the show. This potential serial
killer in Maine and also this twisted, turned up hideous
(24:54):
case of the young teenager accused of killing her mom
and Blake Lively justin Courtney wasn't joking earlier. They'll be
back in court, or she'll be back in court at
least on Thursday, it appears, so we'll be following that
closely as well.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
But first, a little bit about Karen Reid.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
As you guys know, she was found not guilty for
her second trial and there seems to be some new developments.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
What do you have for us?
Speaker 6 (25:21):
So, yes, Karen Reid has been acquitted of any and
all homicide charges and her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, police officer
out of Massachusetts. She has been cleared of his twenty
twenty two death. She has landed a lucrative book deal
and a TV adaptation which people were speculating would be happening.
And here we are. And then here's where a tragedy
(25:44):
really strikes. Aside from the death of John O'Keeffe, both
witnesses and John O'Keefe's family members, they've been enduring harassment
in the aftermath of this trial. So the people who
were you know, the free Karen Read people in pink
with the signs, they need to take it down about
one hundred and fifty notches, is my opinion, because they
(26:05):
are at this point just harassing the family of a
man who's dead.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, Like how about that.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Like John O'Keeffe, victim who you know, really is at
the center of this lost his life. He was caring
for his deceased sister and deceased brother in law's young
children and has a mother who apparently, you know, Peggy o'keeff,
who we've seen in the courtroom during both trials, you know,
heart wrenched. Her son has been killed. Like there are
(26:36):
clowns regardless of what you see, you know, feel about
this particular trial. There are clowns outside of her house
like legitimately harassing Peggy O'Keefe and one of the two
of you where we were talking about this earlier, where
you know, it's alleged that John O'Keeffe's you know, these
young niece and nephew, the kids that he was raising
in the absence of their now deceased parents, are like
(26:58):
getting harassed at school. People are saying free Karen Reid
and doing a huge pylon again like this is they
kind of knock it off. It makes me again. It's upsetting,
you know, it's like they're not involved, they're grieving, give
them any seconds.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I've been involved in discourse on true crime online discourse
for like a decade, and I have never seen people
be so vitriolic as I have in this case. If
you are a free Karen read person, you hate the
people who think she's guilty and vice versa. They hate
each other, and I mean, I've just never seen anything
(27:36):
this bad. And I will say it has trickled into
other cases, like in the true crime community, so there's
other cases that where people now hate each other Delphi.
For instance, if you are a Rick Rick Allen's guilty,
you hate the people who think he's innocent, and vice
versa Sebastian Rodgers he's a missing boy at a Tennessee.
(27:57):
Same thing there. I mean, there's just the hatred of
the opposing side in the discourse online is getting worse.
And I'm sure people will agree with me online that
have been also in discourse online are recognizing that it's
getting worse.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
But to that extent, Like, I hear what you're saying,
because it's both sides of a case, right, so it's
guilty not guilty. Yeah, I think we all get a
little twisted when it becomes the victims' families who have
well no heart.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
In any of this.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
They just a want justice, They want some peace, They
deserve to be able to grieve. Like, why are they
getting harassed?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Well, in all the cases the families are getting harassed,
Oh my goodness, all the cases, IDU pomp of silly,
that's horrible.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
I mean, I agree, and like you said, just that,
you know, the civility of having opposing ideas and having
a conversation. It can get heated or not. You can
disagree and not hate.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, especially as somebody that's not involved in the crown right,
like as an onlooker or a person who enjoys the discussion.
I'm not involved in the crime, why am i? And
I'm not speaking for me personal. I'm just saying, like,
in general, getting so heated, it's getting worse.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Don't they all need a job? Everybody who's just hanging about,
you know, causing fistfights outside of any trial for that matter,
if you're not you know, there with purpose to add,
you know, it's just like becoming a circus in some
cases as well, particularly here, And.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
I mean I experienced it in Idaho. In Idaho, I
was one of the defenders of the roommates online and
I would be getting attacked all the time. I called
stupid and naive and lame and all kinds of things. Me,
you're the opposite of those uns.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But you're also but they're also not like gallivanting in
like you know, matching garb. And you know we saw
that at Diddy's trial. They're like, you know, squirting baby
oil all over the streets of New York City. It's like,
come on, and everybody go go. Your parents raised you better.
I don't care if who raised you, I know it
was better than this, right.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Well, the o Key family, they have filed a civil
suit against Karen Reid. It's pending and so we'll see
how that plays out. And you know, again there's been
other fallout with people, like you said at literallygue games.
It sounds like former detective Michael Proctor was fired. Another
homicide supervisor has been reassigned. And this came into conversation.
(30:23):
I'm not even quite sure why. So Hank Brennan, who
was a prosecutor, earned her a little over half a
million dollars and he acknowledged the trial was marred by
witness intimidation.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
H what does that mean? So I thought, do you think?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And there was also something about one of the main witnesses,
what was her name, the one that was.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Like, oh, Kelly Dever. Yeah, you know, she took the stand.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
She was speaking on behalf of her boss and the
protocol within the police department, and seemed to have a
lot of amnesia going on, And that was also being
brought into consideration because again it falls in the same category.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Listen, we all make mistake, sometimes things go a little sideways.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
We're just asking for some honesty and transparency in the
eleventh hour when somebody's life is in jeopardy and they're
looking to a life sentence.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
Well, and Kelly Dever, Karen Read's defense attorney, has formally
requested that she be placed on the cities. It's called
the Brady List, and it's flags officers with noted credibility issues.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
We can't know officers with credibility issues. We just can't.
Everybody would agree with that, right, Well, I think every
department does, though, Oh my goodness, not every department.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
No, for every politician departments. Yes, listen, this is true
crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here
with Body Moven and Stephanie Leideker, who's taking a quick
breath of air, and then we'll be right back. Give
us a call. We're at eighty eight three one Crime.
(31:53):
We're speaking about Karen Reid and want to hear your
thoughts on kind of the fallout that's how since the
trial and Body, I think you had some more updates.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, so I'm going to be talking about Turtle Boy.
So there's a whole nother arm of this case that
very kind of controversial. I mean, this is kind of
like a powder Keg case, right where there's all kinds
of different There's a lot of people, first of all,
a lot of names, but Turtle Boy is kind of
like a central figure and nobody really maybe knows who
he is. So we're going to deep dive and do
(32:26):
who Turtle Boy is. And this is the beginning of that.
So his name is Aiden Kearney and he goes by
turtle Boy. He had a court date last week July
seventh in Massachusetts. Of course we're hearing related to alleged
witness intimidation and bail violations. He's currently facing several charges
for witness intimidation, picketting a witness, and wiretapping connected to
(32:50):
his coverage of the Karen Reid murder case. So Karen,
of course, we know who Karen Reid is. We don't
need to go into that. But okay, so let's get
an into who turtle Boy is and why he's facing
these charges. So Turtle Boy he founded the blog called
Turtle Boy Sports and it evolved into something called TV
Daily News, and he began it was an anonymous blog
(33:13):
where he was kind of like covering local corruption, politically,
charge commentary, crime and later openly identifying himself as Kearney
and of course his little his loyal Turtle riders following well.
His role in the Karen Reid case was early in
twenty twenty three, he started deep diving her case because
(33:35):
he you know, he lives in the area, and he
created a blog series called the Canton Cover Up. And
really this is kind of what ignited the Free Karen
Reid movement because Turtle Boy astuteley in looking at all
the police reports he was getting and you know, talking
to locals, he was basically investigating the case. Yeah, I mean, okay,
(33:56):
as an independent kind of journalist guy, and he was
just like really kind of the first guy that started
sounding the alarm bells that there might be some kind
of framing situation happening here, something was going on. But
he's very bold, he's very confident in how he speaks,
and that might come across to some people as intimidating, right,
(34:18):
So he's got kind of a reputation, and in doing so,
he got charged with witness intimidation, ticketting a witness, and
wiretapping because he was investigating this case without police involvement.
So here we are, and that's We're going to continue
this conversation because it's a lot to it's really a
lot to unpack.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
A Turtle Boy and you gets better than anybody as
a super rich I do. And that's why detective of
your own who does it so ethically, and he really
did crack it open. I mean Karen Reid when she
was found not guilty, it was Karen Reid, her dad
and then her defense attorney and Turtle Boy at the podium, right,
they were like, she really does credit him.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
He kind of rallied the troops, He organized public demonstrations,
he sold merchandise, he live streamed interactions. He staged these
rolling rallies which were like these caravan protests, like going
past the homes of the witnesses, and I mean, listen,
that's that's kind of intimidation. Though, well that's what he
(35:21):
was charged with. Right. So this is a whole separate
case outside of Karen read but it's you know, affiliated,
it's like another arm of that case. And I think
a lot of the people and this is not I
don't believe Turtle Boy's fault by any stretching the imagination.
I'm not blaming him, but this whole you know, the
family getting harassed, I think kind of comes from that.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
The spirit of those those protests. Wow, it's like there's
no way to It's tough on all sides. Right, He's
doing the right thing and at the same time taking
it too far potentially.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I don't know, it sure seems so all right.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's officially getting a little bit rowdy here in the
studio as we speak. Listen, Hey, Glenn, we were so
psyched to hear from you. We were just talking about
it from the break we were back because I feel
like we want more Glenn Moore's world needs Yes, the
world needs more Glenn.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
We have a talk back now, So yeah, here we go.
Speaker 9 (36:15):
Hi, True crime tonight. So honestly, I'm confused by people
are so surprised that the president isn't releasing these files. Like,
in my opinion, it's pretty normal for a politician to
say one thing during a campaign to get elected and
then do something else when they're actually in office. We've
seen this time and time again with presidents from every party,
(36:36):
and I don't understand why people are getting so mad
about the specific instance, Like, isn't this just what politics is?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The double talk is the name of the game.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Is that what we're suggesting here that we all accept
double talk?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Well, I mean to her, I think she's listen, I
think she's right though, no, I know she's right, but
it doesn't mean that she's one hundred percent right. Of
course she's right. Unfortunately, though, I think we shouldn't accept it.
Couldn't be like we shouldn't sit back and be like, well, well,
it's just politics. I have an idea, what lie detector tests?
Oh gosh, yes, we'll do the debates hooked up during
(37:11):
the right now, hope, please, we're going to get that
sorted out. You're going to call your old coworkers show
right now. Yes, we're going to get that solved, because
I feel like that's part of just the issue. I
don't even know what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
It's just like, can someone just say it transparently that
we can illegal for something?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It should be illegal to campaign knowing that you're lying. Yeah,
like it should have jail time. I agree they should be, But.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Then how do you say were you lying at the
time or no, you absolutely meant to do.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
I feel like I.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
Don't know how you evolve your standards.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
You should what you can evolve your opinion. Many people
do that and they say, hey, look I got it wrong.
Now I have it right, and I got it wrong.
But in Trump's case, if I'm not mistaken, he was
our you know, president once before, so he would have
had access to those files, which according to Elon Musk,
which again I know, I'm just like pulling out all
kinds of sources.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I don't know who's what's what.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
But isn't he saying that he also saw the list
and he was in the in Trump, if he was
running on that for the second time, he's running on
something he said he saw. So it's not like it
was like, oh, I misspoke, because we get that we're
all human blakes.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Your opinions change, you grow.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
No, I think it's a blatant lie, and I think
we're not talking about any sort of growth. We're talking
about the least common denominator under which we are all living,
which is not cheerful.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
We're going to turn this around. Yes, we have another talkback.
Speaker 10 (38:42):
Hey, I had a question about the Epstein trial. I
don't really follow. It's just super dark, honestly, but yeah,
I have a question about how long after his body
was hanging or like he was dead did it take
for them to find him and if.
Speaker 8 (38:56):
That matters at all?
Speaker 10 (38:58):
And also the whole missing of footage. I mean, that's insane,
that seems nuts. But yeah, I was just wondering.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Great question again, really good smartest crime crew. So I
last night we had Joseph Scott Morgan on Forensic Expert
and I asked him about this, and it might have
been during commercial and I didn't mean it if it was,
but he explained that the libidity of the blood pooling
in his back area suggested that he was hanging there
for about two hours and they found him at six
(39:28):
thirty in the morning, so around that would be around
four to four thirty in the morning that you know
he quote unquote killed himself. And I'm using the air
quotes but you can't see. So yeah, two hours and
yeah that missing minute and the aspect ratio change and
and the metadata being two videos sliced together.
Speaker 6 (39:48):
It's like I edited it, which is really saying something.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
It really is. It's great, gustrous, You're one hundred percent right,
So no, it is preposterous. Listen, keep it here.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
We have as of developments about the Menanda's brothers and
a potential serial killer in the Northeast question Mark keep
it Here True Crime tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
So we've discussed the Karen Read stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
We're going to really follow this turtle boy situation that
body was telling us about later in the week as well.
And there's this crazy, really unusual case about Sarah Grace
Patrick and she's this young teenager who allegedly, allegedly allegedly
killed her mother and her stepfather and it's a real
twisted one. So we're going to hear more about that.
(40:44):
And then also there may be a serial killer on
the loose in Maine, a very unexpected place, and one
of our listeners, Esther was, was smart enough and kind
enough to reach out and give us some scoop, and
we're digging into that. So, ladies, who wants to go first,
raise your right hand. I will raise my right hand.
Speaker 6 (41:07):
I'm strong, yes, And if I were Blake Lively, I
would say I would like to raise my right hand
and be very comfortable in private while I do it.
Oh yeah, So here is what just happened. So a
judge granted Blake Lively a protective order and this is
ahead of her deposition in the Justin Baldoni case. So
a deposition is basically you sit there, you're not in
(41:29):
a courtroom, and you answer a lot of questions in
a legal proceeding. So what she was granted that she
will be protected so there can be no and this
is great, there can be no harassment, intimidation or undo
burden during these proceedings. And the person the protected in
this case Lively, she gets determined for where her deposition
(41:54):
will take place.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
She will be private and comfortable.
Speaker 6 (41:59):
And it seems like Justin Baldoni, who is going to
be doing his side, is going to be doing the deposition.
He had other things to say, and he suggested that
they do the deposition in Madison Square Garden and stream
it or sell tickets. And he did say that, and
(42:20):
he said, listen, we'll do it to raise funds for
abuse victims, which could be seen as a lovely thing. Honestly,
I mean, who wouldn't want money for abuse victims? But
Lively's side certainly condemned it. What are the.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Odds that that movie was actually about SA in sexual assault?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
It ends with Us, which I loved, and you know,
you know, the book series was so highly regarded the
film that Justin Baldoni directed as well as start in
alongside the beautiful Blake Lively. Who I mean, I've always
been a mega Blake Lively fan, I mean, gossip girl
to the end. So all of this kind of is
a hard pill to swallow, I guess, because it's two sided.
(43:01):
If Blake Lively has gotten a bad rap and was
in fact, you know, harassed at work or felt that
she was put into compromising exploitative positions in the workplace
by Justin Baldoni, of course that should be that should
be handled. But if it was just a pr move
or a smear campaign to get the rights of the
book back. I mean, there's been so many theories about this.
(43:24):
If that ends up being the case, who his I mean,
obviously it's seeming like the judge says it's not the case,
you know, thankfully, But man, that doesn't help victims at all.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You know, Stephanie, you're my source for like all things
like celebrity means gossip. I don't Again, I haven't really
followed this Justin Baldon thing, but he was countersuiting, correct, he.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
Was in a very real riot, right, that's right, So Lively,
just real quick, Blake Lively, she followed a suit she
accused Justin Baldoni, co star and director of the movie,
of sexual harassment as well as for retaliation during the
making of It Ends with Us, the movie they were
in together. Baldoni roundly denied the claim, and he did
(44:11):
file a four hundred million dollar countersuit, and that was
for extortion and defamation. That was against Blake Lively and
her husband Ryan Reynolds, another movie star that has been
dismissed and has not been refiled bodies.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
So you're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And look, there was like this back and forth petty
betty stuff right where it seems like he was saying
one thing and then there was a text exchange that
said the other, and we were all kind of getting
washed away in this PR machine, which it does seem
as though at its core there was some nefarious or
you know, maybe this is just again another category politics. Okay, fine,
(44:50):
I guess PR that that this is like a machine
that is an underbelly in Hollywood that we're learning about
maybe through this case where PR machines sort of kind
of go undercurrent and create these smear campaigns allegedly allegedly allegedly,
and that becomes big business. Who knows. But at the
end of the day, yes, Justin Beldoni was countersuing he
(45:12):
has a very affluent, wealthy partner at Wayfair Entertainment who
made the movie that justin' directed and started in and
they saw a really sour end to that. That was
a hard no. So now we're back on track for
Blake Lively to go back to where she started, which
was this original lawsuit basically saying she was indigging it
(45:33):
in that she was put in very uncomfortable situations in
the workplace, right.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
And you're right, Stephanie about I know we touched about
this just for just a hot second, but just PR
and what that does and what it does. It seems
like in this moment, PR isn't just to get quote
the word out as in there's a movie. PR seems
to have changed into we're going to put out whatever
(45:59):
reality we feel like they change out.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Exactly, changing the narrative right like, yes, completely and structuring
the naraks and reality.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
It's wicked, terrifying, all of it. I mean it is terrifying,
and it echoes Stephanie, I'll get your straight jacket out.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
This is all echoes of Epstein.
Speaker 6 (46:19):
No and it is all of it's infuriating, but yeah,
the warping, there are no facts anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
It appears we even heard and I know we have
to do a quick segment. Listen that you're listening to
True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Please join us eight eight
eight three one crime. Jump in, join the conversation. We're
talking about Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. Blake Lively is
said to appear at a hearing on Thursday and is
looking for some security. This hearing is kind of going
back in time to the original lawsuit that was placed
(46:47):
where she felt as though she was being harassed in
the workplace. And then we're talking about this like the
public relations machine. It used to be old school, like, oh,
I'm a pr person again. I'm paraphizing. I don't totally
know the inner workings of this, but I'm surprised by
it in current times where it's like, oh, I want
my movie to get some press, So the stars of
that movie are going to go on the Jimmy Kimmel Show,
(47:10):
where they're going to go on you know Fallon or
Saturday Night Live. They're going to host to promote the
film that has been you know, so much money invested
by a studio, Okay, I get it.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Or if there's like.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
A scandal, ooh, found doing drugs at the Chateau Marmont, Okay,
PR people, they're going to jump in and say nothing
to see here and like kind of bury it air quotes.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I kind of understood it that way.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
But now as we here are here with social media,
it says though a real piece of the machine is
putting out snippets and clipbait on on social media. That
really does, to your point body reframe the narrative. And
that's pretty scary stuff because in the eve of fake news,
anybody can be made to look crazy. In fact, I
(47:55):
was just whether this is unsubstantiated because I don't know
what's real anymore, but there was a trusted source that
I really do believe it. In fact, I'm trying to
get her to come on the show to talk about
it herself. Is claiming that the Diddy trial, for example,
social media influencers were being paid like forty k a
pop to put out positive things about the trial on
(48:19):
social media. Now that's unsubstantiated, but just as an example
of what PR machines do, they could potentially employ many
many people to put posts and you know here I
am Facebook, and.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
To create a story. Yeah what they're not on the jury, right,
So no, it's public opinion.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
It's public opinion, and isn't that ultimately, which is why
we have the same thing with politics, which is why
we're having the same thing on social media. This is like,
it's not about celebrities anymore. It's not about promoting a
movie anymore. It's not even about it ends with us anymore.
The film that this all started in, which by the way,
head of the beautiful sentiment and really beautiful message, man
(49:02):
has that got washed up? And again, if you have
a bunch of deep pockets and real money to spend,
not a blad place, suspend it. If you want to
look real good despite real bad behavior. So I don't know,
I don't know where that shakes out in this, but
I wouldn't mind doing a series on this or if
anybody listening has any inside scoop into this machine, because
I know that of course there are wonderful pr people
(49:23):
that this is not the jam, but I do think
it's a part of the every day that we're seeing,
and I personally find it real confusing and terrifying.
Speaker 6 (49:32):
I mean, remember the simple days, and this is not
to make super light of it, but the simple days
when the biggest thing in PR was Lizzie Grubman, high
powered celebrity backing in Hampton in the Hamptons.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yes, because she had too many cocktails in a Hampton's party.
Like that was like, oh scandal, it was like ooh,
page six.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Now It's like that is how it is done, and
real money is being put to it.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
And I don't know how you and I don't know
if you. I kind of like I think of like
troll farms, like you know, you learn you you hear
about like the people that you know they're in a
there's maybe fifty people in a room and their desk
is just cell phones, right, like lines of cell phones
just making comments Like you know, is that a thing? Yeah?
I didn't know that. That's kind of what I what
(50:19):
I imagine in my mind when you're talking about this kind
of thing. That's what I like see in my head,
Like these major firms, like these PR firms that are
buying bots and you know, these these troll farms to
push a narrative on social media.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Boy is that a good point because also don't forget
ais of everything, Like I have a thinking suspicion this
is based on nothing, and I have based on the
smartest in the room. But in terms of the next
president or the United States, I bet you an influencer,
somebody from social media, not AI is going to galvanize
(50:59):
the people. Sobody who was unrelated to politics altogether, no
association whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
There really are in idiocracy at this point.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
It is we're at that time that that we listen
more to what we're and by the way, myself included,
I have to check myself all the time to make
sure we're sourcing things twice because but it does. It's
like impactful, it has mass appeal, you can edit it,
there's a platform, there's a machine pushing it out. It's
just I think it's something for us all to kind
(51:28):
of unpack and think about as we as we you know,
true crimate together.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Well, you're right, because we do have to source everything
two or three times. Yeah, and that's kind of new,
you know, it said we would just kind of like okay,
ABC said it, but now we're having to be like, okay,
well let's go get four other sources. Exactly. It's a
different time. Yeah, scary.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
There's a lot of cases that are unfolding right now
that we're just starting. We're seeding them as how we
say it here behind closed doors. So this Sarah Grace
Patrick is this teenager who allegedly, allegedly allegedly killed her
mother and her stepfather. And what's kind of twisted about
this case is that she allowed her younger sibling if
(52:12):
this is true, So frankly, I find the bodies, which
is messy, and she's so young, and she's being tried
as an adult. So we're going to dig into that one.
And then also this potential serial killer.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
In Maine, I mean, New England.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Not really known for its serial killers, but this is
something we're going to start monitoring closely. So body, yes,
where would you like to start and who would you
like to start with?
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Well, let's talk about the potential serial killer in mean
So I'm not exactly sure why they think it's a
serial killer, but we're going to unpack it anyway. But
just keep in mind, I don't know where they're getting
the serial killer from. I don't know if they're trying
to connect it to the potential serial killer in like
the Boston and the Connecticut area, but me is quite
(53:00):
a far distance.
Speaker 6 (53:01):
I was gonna say, body, that's my gross understanding too.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
That's the correlation people are making, right, But let's keep
it in the back of your mind that this is
potentially part of the New England serial killer, you know,
story that we've been covering since we went live, right, yeah,
since day one. We've been since day one. Yeah, So
this is the in Maine again. On July second, forty
eight year old Sunshine Sunny as she goes by Sunny Stewart,
(53:29):
she went on a solo paddleboarding excursion in Crawford Pond
in Union, Maine. Okay, July second, you know, she was
paddling all evening and the following Oh but she never
came home. Okay, the following evening. Game wardens discovered her
body around one am on July third. So she leaves
(53:50):
July second, she's discovered it hits midnight, one o'clock in
the morning. Okay. Now it's on a like a really
small island in this pond. Investigators quickly ruled her death
a homicide, finding her under quote unquote unusual circumstances. Also,
we don't know what that means, right, we don't know
(54:11):
what those unusual circumstances mean, but that has only fueled
this speculation that there's a serial killer. Right. So the
more tight lips the authorities are about like her manner
of death, that these unusual circumstances they found her in,
the more speculation, you know, is going to run rampant
on social media about a potential serial killer. So this
(54:33):
is like a really like tight knit area and it's
kind of like a sleepy area. Everyone is described as
like very This is like completely unexpected to happen in
this area of the country. It's just not something that
the police, quite frankly, are accustomed to. The people who
live there are not accustomed to. This is incredibly unusual,
(54:56):
so that everyone awoke the next morning to like grief
and shock and fear, and friends who you know had
been at the campground just days earlier are just like
really overcome with this. Oh my god, this lady was
just murdered at our campground.
Speaker 6 (55:15):
On a little pond. I mean, what could sound more peaceful?
But I do think body that you're so right that
when there is a dearth of information and investigators keep
a close hold which can be for so many really
good reasons that people do try and just fill that
void of there is no information, let me put in
my own, and it can get a little.
Speaker 3 (55:36):
Because people want to fill the void, right, and things
can kind of just run rampant. So the autopsy did
confirm it was a homicide, though the cause of death
has not been publicly released, and I don't know that
it ever will in these kind of things. Investigators have
not named any suspects, and there's been, you know, a
multi agency search initially for her because she was reported missing,
(55:58):
like the game wardens, fire department, sheriff deputies, they were
all launched shortly after she went missing, and they found her,
Like I said, at one o'clock in the morning, this
is a really small pond. I kind of am a
little confused on why they needed all these people to
search it. It's the only I mean, at its deepest,
(56:19):
it's only fifty seven feet in this island they found
around it's only one hundred acres, So I'm kind of curious.
There's a lot of like missing pieces, and I think
that's probably why Esther sent us, you know, one of
our listeners sent us this case because there's a lot
of missing pieces that we want to dig into, but
we just kind of started this today. So but it
was only a matter of hours, and it was dark,
(56:42):
it was very dark in the evening and she was
found by one am. So, yes, what you're saying is
quite small, but in the scope of things in the dark,
starting to scratch. So the main state police acknowledged that
the community is really scared that the serial killer. You know,
(57:03):
rumors are igniting and now in Maine, and they urged
the community and the residents to stay calm and report
any suspicious activity, stating that there is no confirmed connection
between any of the cases. Another high profile cases involves
a twenty one year old Adrian Suazzo, whose body was
found in a wooded area of Milton, Massachusetts. So it's
(57:26):
out in nature. It's you know, so sierable there is it.
Have you been? Yeah, I've been there. Actually, that's a
beautiful neck of the woods. Her remains show no signs
of trauma, and her cause of death is still under investigation,
so there is some things there. Sonny Stewart's sister, Kim Ware,
(57:47):
described her the victim, as a beloved marine biologist and
boat captain who had sailed the Caribbean through a hurricane,
Like this is a fierce woman. What calling her a
selfless and she lived life unapologetically and she died in
this little small body of water. Yeah, well, again, the
(58:08):
investigation said, quote unquote suspicious circumstances.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Such an interesting thing, you know, because we were talking
about this earlier. One of the cases that we're working
on separately on KT you know, is something we've been
working on for a while, and it's like we need answers,
like we think we've connected some serious dots, right, but
we also don't want to interrupt a police investigation. Obviously,
we work alongside police officers and by the way, given
(58:34):
all the Karen Reid nonsense, we work alongside very great
ones as well. So shout out to the men in
blue and women I might add in blue. So you know,
it's on the one hand, we're calling it a serial killer.
There might be some real truth to that. There might be,
And at the same time, there might be some information
being with held from the public because it's connected to
(58:55):
something which is connected to something which is connected to
something and you know, and.
Speaker 3 (58:59):
If that gets out, and if that gets out, then
the person, the serial killer if it is one, No,
they got to change their manner of operandi, you know,
they got to change their manner of killing. They gotta
you know, this happened with the nightstalker. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
You just nailed it on the head there, because it's
an interesting thing I hadn't. You know, we want answers
and we want transparency, and then sometimes it's like, look,
we're trying to not tip off the killer. Who's also
probably because serial killers sometimes are well not sometimes oftentimes
are narcissists and psychopaths, right who like the attention? Who
Also we saw this with Brian Coburger potentially, who was
(59:36):
you know, checking out the message boards and seeing what
the chatter is online about the killings and just to
kind of either double down on and what is it
operas motor dah.
Speaker 3 (59:48):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
I can never say that straight or they might just
change it up to get the sniff off their trail, right,
So sometimes it's important to hold that information close. But yeah,
we're I'm going to dig in because there's something. There's
something fishy.
Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Another really strange thing really quick is this is like
a really remote area the pond is in a really
remote area of this area, and so it's very strange
that a random serial killer would be out there at
this time. So maybe she was stalked followed is just unusual.
(01:00:25):
I just wanted to point that out real quickly.
Speaker 6 (01:00:26):
Yeah, there's a lot more questions than answers so far,
but we will be staying on it and listen if
you want to join our conversation. We're at eighty eight
three to one crime and we would love to hear
from you. So back for a hot second, Stephanie to
the modus operandi, which I'm saying incorrectly as well. It
is interesting with this whole the question of the Northeast
(01:00:48):
serial killer, because there has been such sort of disparate
even victims, because usually the norm is that it's women
between the ages of X and Y versus just a
range of sexes and ages.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I would like to map it. It would be interesting
to create a board.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
You know, this is sort of our step one typically
internally here at KT is you know, putting a big
board together, right and taking all of the victims and
just the basic facts. In fact, honestly, anyone listening crime crewers,
please like toss us any information you may have in
and around the area, because you know, once you sort
of look at it in front of you. You know,
we've all watched CSI or you know, Law and Order.
(01:01:30):
You see those detectives. Not that we're detectives, but it's
just a way of kind of mapping the very basic
information a picture, age, name, place, you know, manner of death,
and how their body was found and who that body
was found by, and then the next one and locations.
Because sometimes when you do that, you take a look
back and you're like, you really very quickly can connect dots.
Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
You know, all my spreadsheets that I have, Yeah, your spreadsheet.
I have spreadsheets on every case that I follow and
every single spreadsheet that I have, and I have dozens
of them, and my friends will tell you that I'm
crazy about them. My girlfriend actually bought me a this
deserves a spreadsheet shirt of Chase. It's a miner. Every
single case that I follow has a map. I map everything.
(01:02:14):
It's it's really important.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
It's like step one, right, so I would like to
start mapping this one. And you know, listen, we don't
have the answers yet, but just little by little, as
you know, we hear more information, both in the media
and based on our digging and research, and also from
you guys, if you have any details to share from
in and around the main area or New England in general. Listen,
(01:02:36):
there's an uptick, right, So is that just something that's
being put in the press for sensational purposes or is
there some loose ends? And if that's the case, maybe
we can help.
Speaker 10 (01:02:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
I enjoying the conversation, right, Like that helps you join
the conversation. We want this to be kind of like
a place where people can come to have these conversations
like is this really happening.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
We'll strike out sometimes, you know, we're not We're not
trying to interrupt anything. We're not trying to accuse anybody
of murder, obviously, Captain obvious. But you know, look, this
is how it starts. And our listeners are smart man.
Speaker 6 (01:03:08):
Oh absolutely, and listen. Yeah, everything does start with questions.
It is important to note that these are it is speculation.
It's kind of morely held speculation, but it is that.
And law enforcement is not saying the word serial killer.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
You want to say that, And listen, there's this new
case that we want to start unpacking. You may have
seen it a bit in the news about this young teenager,
Sarah Grace Patrick. She's looking at a very real bad situation.
(01:03:46):
Allegedly she took the life of her mother and her
stepdad and kind of what's extra weird about this one,
aside from just that, right is as is going to
be tried as an adult, so more on that to come.
Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
But also she was kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Reaching out to crime shows maybe like Hours, asking for
some crime enthusiasts and influencers and TV shows and blogs
and podcasts and you know, frankly shows like this, although
not ours, to help solve the crime and solve her parents' death,
(01:04:23):
her mother and her stepdad, honestly, and then it turns
out it was her potentially, So that's a twisted one.
And Courtney, you've been following this closely.
Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Where should we go on this?
Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (01:04:34):
So I think starting with the basics, because that's all
I've really been gathering. And I think this is going
to evolve. I think it's going to evolve quickly. But
I don't know what I'm basing that on except forgot.
Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
I agree, God, yeah, no, I agree. I think the
suspect is young, and I think she's vulnerable. And I
think if she is guilty, they're going to be able
to crack that pretty quickly. And she is very dramatic
on social media. She's making videos crying into the camera,
uh my mommy, you know, I miss my mommy, and
it's all very sad if she's innocent of this. But
(01:05:05):
and she was like filming herself crying and like filming herself,
I'm going to go to the funeral, those kinds of things.
It feels very I need a formative, very performative right now.
I mean in hindsight, But what if she's just like sad,
but it's just sad, right.
Speaker 6 (01:05:21):
So, just the salient facts of it is Sarah Grace Patrick.
She's a teen out of Georgia and her mother forty
one year old Kristen Brock, and her stepfather who is
forty five year old James Brock. They were found shot
to death in their bed and they were found by
the five year old daughter that they share together. That
(01:05:45):
was her mother and father. So the teen, Sarah Grace Patrick, again,
this is her mother and stepfather. So she has been
charged as an adult, as you said, Steph, And she
is seventeen years old now and she's been charged with
two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated assault
for this alleged killing. This happened back in February.
Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
It seems like a really long time. Yeah, So she
was like at this is like just breaking now. She
was like just off for several months and she was
a mourning daughter. It's been five months months. Wow. And
how old was she at the time? Sixteen at the time.
And Steph, just this happened in February. I'm sorry, Courtney,
this happened in February. She was arrested just last week,
(01:06:29):
I think on the eighth. Yeah, so five months and
the police have said they have a mountain of evidence
against her. And it's crazy to me that if they
have this mountain of evidence, why it took five months
to get her arrested. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
And she's saying innocent, innocent, innocent. I don't think we've
heard from her, Yeah, not that I have seen things.
News is coming out pretty quick, but not the last
I look. And after the murders Sarah Grace, she was
posting all of these emotional and kind of cryptic TikTok
videos just mourning her parents. She described her life as
(01:07:13):
a horror movie, and she kept expressing homesickness for wanting
to go home.
Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
I bet so well. She lived. She lived with different
family members too, Like she wasn't a permanent residence at
the home. At the familial home, she was staying with
other family members. And I'm not sure exactly why yet.
I don't think they've we've learned yet, but she there
was apparently something going on, yeah, and not saying but
(01:07:42):
if there is nothing going on, well, I mean, it
does happen. Why its scary to think about ed Kemper.
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
I mean, you know, this is why I were called right,
it does happen.
Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
We just don't know. But it's just so odd, how
dramatic she was on social media and wanting the attention
and just acting like a grieving daughter that just lost
her mom. And I mean it was video after video
afterr video of just tears and then other videos. This'sort.
Both things might be true. She might have filled her absolutely,
(01:08:19):
and then other videos of her like at the beach
just loving life as soon, you know, as early or
late as like two weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Jerrian, she was at the beach two weeks ago. But look,
we were learning this again, I'm going to give Sarah
Grace Patrick a little grace until proven wrong, which I
you know admit is often. You know, we just learned
this with the Menendez brothers who are now looking to
be freed after decades behind bars because they killed their parents,
total bloodbath. They went straight and partied and bought rolexes
(01:08:50):
or I'm paraphrasing, but they went they got spendy and
like you know, life went on. They bought cars. That
was why they were thrown behind bars, right because it
wasn't a good look. They weren't grieving correctly. You know,
is it plausible that this young lady I'm looking at
a picture of her right now kind of a heartbreaking,
what a beauty and like what a waste you know,
(01:09:11):
lives lost in this horrible manner. My heart goes out
to the five year old that had to stumble in
and catch her parents murdered. That's a stain that will
you know, core memory that's hard to shake for that
she should definitely be there's a talking to you know here,
But like, is it possible that maybe there was something
that was going on in Sarah Grace's.
Speaker 6 (01:09:31):
World worse and something that we I mean there could
not justifying it obviously, oh is we don't know about.
Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
But the other thing too, is that the police, Courtney curtently,
if I'm wrong, police said that there might be other suspects. Yeah,
like a little ring.
Speaker 6 (01:09:49):
They have not ruled out additional suspects or arrest. They
do continue to encourage public tips. So that's exactly right.
So it's tricky. And she also had reached out.
Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Oh go ahead, Stephanie.
Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
No, I was going to say, I'm curious what Gypsy
Rose has to say on this topic for real.
Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
I don't say that in a glib way. You know,
someone who do we really want to hear from her?
Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Well, she's interesting contacts. I feel like we talk a
lot about the Menendez brothers. I'm a little you know,
I want them all. I'm a little concerned by all
of it. But you know, court finish your thought. I
didn't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 6 (01:10:21):
Oh well, first of all, if anyone else wants to
join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime, tell
us what you think about Sarah Grace Patrick. It's it's
kind of been all over the news. What I was
going to say was, in addition to reaching out to
some true crime social media folks and also posting on
her own. She also had a family friend and she
(01:10:45):
had reached out to them an adult, to speak on
her behalf and in this and what she had asked
to say was that she did hear her stepdads. It's
called an ELVAD machine, which is heart machine, kept his
heart pumping. So what Sarah Gray said was that she
did hear the alarm going off throughout the night, but
(01:11:08):
it could have also blends it in with background noise.
Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
So I guess what the theory is there is that
she heard this LVAD going off, meaning I learned about it.
Speaker 5 (01:11:16):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
I don't even know what's grace? Through Gray's Anatomy, by
the way, I learned all about that. It's a machine
that hooks up to your heart keeps a pumping. It
like sits outside your body, but it's hooked into your heart.
And famously, on Gray's Anatomy, they cut this. They cut
it so that this guy could get a transplant. It's
very dramatic. But anyway, I learned about that on Grays
And is it like a mini echo machine? I don't know, Okay,
(01:11:39):
I just know that she had got amazing anyway, are
you a doctor? Are you listen? If you've watched all
the seasons of Gray's Anatomy, I think you qualified that
close enough closely. So this elvad when it gets cut
famously as in the show, I know this because I'm
an expert. Now, it makes a noise because it's no longer.
(01:12:00):
So I guess what she's saying is that she heard
the alarm going off because he was he was passed away, right,
because it's not pumping the heart anymore. It's not working
because there's no pul because he was shot with a rifle.
How did she have this rifle? Let's discuss that. But
also a family did she let her sister, this half
(01:12:21):
sibling or stepsister enter the room to discover these bodies knowingly?
I don't like that. I don't like that. That is so sick.
If that is like a real thing. Wasn't you baby
talking a little bit?
Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
That was kind of a weird like little piece which
is a kind of a dissociative thing.
Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Yeah, I mean kind of. There is a TikTok account
that archived all in her videos and I went and
watched them all, and she was kind of baby talking.
But if if she wasn't accused of this crime, I
don't know that you would think of anything of it, right, right,
right in retrospect, in hindsight, in retrospect, it seems right,
is right? Right?
Speaker 6 (01:12:56):
You know, one of them, it was a This one
kind of struck me. It was a video collage and
it was of her mother and stepfather. Oh yes, okay,
and this happened.
Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
I guess what.
Speaker 6 (01:13:07):
It's on March first, so I guess about nineteen days
before they weren't murdered. And what Sarah Grace wrote was
they don't know it, but a year from now me
and my five year old sister would find them wrongfully
shot dead in our home and won't get to watch
me graduate high school. So me walk down the aisle
and couldn't even say goodbye?
Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
Wait what I'd like to?
Speaker 8 (01:13:28):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Wait?
Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
I don't get that she posted a video prior to
the murders of them.
Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
No, she posted after them before, saying if only they
knew then that a year from now.
Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Yeah, it's a trend. I hate Instagram trends. It's so annoying.
I find that A pinon that trend is.
Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
This, Oh just when people they're like, they show a
photo of themselves and they're like, little does she know
talking to themselves like this time next year, they're going
to be like in a very difficult situation that they're yeah,
you like it. I hate it? No, No, no, I
don't like it. I don't know.
Speaker 6 (01:14:03):
I hate talking about but yes I don't.
Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
I'd like to know what evidence they have, and I'd
like to know also why they're not, you know, saying
she's the only suspect. I would really like to know.
And was there any materials stolen? You know? Is is there?
Haven't drugs involved? Are they trying to like gather some
casual mom and dad? Mom and dad were like really
upstanding members of the community. They were very active in
(01:14:28):
their truthing. No, the dad had posted a picture of
his little girl on social media less than twenty four
hours before he was gunned down, saying like she's the
light of my world, and it's all there. She was
jealous of all this love. If she wasn't living in
the home with her mother, and I don't know if
she was living there when it happened, but she was
in and out of the familiar home with state of
(01:14:49):
their family members. I don't have clarity on that as well.
Speaker 6 (01:14:52):
That hasn't been clear the quote mountain of evidence that
the police say they have that also is not clear.
An left any drugs, So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Well, she'll be rain soon. Hopefully she'll be a rain soon.
Maybe we'll get some of that information. Maybe we'll get
to see disaster scary.
Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Listen, we have a lot going on this week in general,
so we'll be following up on the cases that are
unfolding real time and breaking news, but also we're going
to do a little bit of a deep dive into
Gilane Maxwell herself, the right hand woman in the Epstein
and also the Hillside notorious Hillside strangler or killer. Right,
this is a serial killer that is pretty infamous and
(01:15:30):
is definitely, you know, a little bit back in the
press again, so we're going to do a big unpack
on that as well. And although I'm a little afraid
we're going to start digging into this Abercrombie in Fitch situation,
that's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
We're going to leave it at that. There's a little
bit of.
Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Crossover parallel universes things that are happening. Maybe in the
Epstein case might in a parallel Hideous World also be happening,
and yet another very big, high profile case. So more
on that to come, but we have a quick talkback.
Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Hi there.
Speaker 5 (01:16:02):
I just wanted to see if you guys could talk
a little bit about the Shannon Price Gary Coleman stuff
that's kind of been renewed with the new show that's
come out from Annie about her lie detector test and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Seems like that was kind of a botched investigation.
Speaker 5 (01:16:19):
I'd love to get your take on it.
Speaker 6 (01:16:20):
Yes, seems like that was kind of a bad idea
to go on that TV show.
Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Hi, we do that. I love this question. We will
dig into this too. We have to know about it.
I don't even know what you guys are talking about.
Tell me, tell me what's going on.
Speaker 6 (01:16:34):
I know almost nothing, and I think we all love
this talk back, And honestly, guys, let's put this on
the show tomorrow, because yeah, all I know is Gary
Coleman's wife, although it seems it was his ex wife
who and this was a question that came up when
he was on life support and she had the do
not resuscitate order. I hope I'm not watching all this information.
(01:16:57):
I don't think I am though, but she basically said, Okay,
he's lived enough and it's time to let him rest.
But apparently she did not have the right to do
that because they were in fact divorced. But she has
since gone on a lie detective test on A and E.
Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
It's on A and E.
Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
We can call, Yeah, shout out to Shelley Tetro and
Elaine Fontane Bryant.
Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
We can.
Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
I'll reach out to them and see if they can
give us some insider scoop from A and E. But yeah,
the lie detective test, my understanding is it didn't go great.
And you know, there's been speculation that Gary Coleman was
killed
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It is Monday, July fourteenth. Guess what,
we have a stacked night of headlines. I don't know
about you, guys. I'm feeling so mad about this Epstein mess.
It just seems to never end. And again, we do
not seal lists to protect justice. We seal lists to
(00:42):
protect power. And we're going to get knee deep into
the new developments in that case that we were following
so closely last night. Also some new developments in the
Idaho student murders. Have a hearing this week. In another
next week, Courtney's going to fill us in a bit
more about that. And Karen Reid, who as we all know,
was not guilty in her second trial last month. She
(01:03):
has scored herself a book deal, so more details on that.
And we're also going to dig into a case kind
of for the first time about a potential serial killer
in Maine, and that one comes straight from esther our
Crime crew listener, thank you for sharing your info, and
we're about to dig in Tier one. I'm Stephanie Lai
Decker and i head up Katie Studios where we make
(01:26):
true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do
that with Courtney Armstrong and body move in here every
night and we want to hear from you eight eight
eight three one crime, So please jump in join the conversation,
or you could always hit us up on our socials
at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And also if you
(01:49):
want to leave us a talkback, which is kind of
like a voice memo, all you have to do is
download the iHeart app for free and in the top
right hand corner you push this button leave us a
message and boom, you are on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
So I won't belabor. In fact, we have a talk
back right now.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Hey, this is Stephanie from Alabama. I just want to
say that I absolutely love the show. So I have
a question in relation to Brian Koberger. Do you think
that the reason that his plea deal was changed so
abruptly was because the media was shifting their focus from
him to the things that were going on such as
the politician shootings with Bolter and then the Travis Decker manhunt.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
That is an interesting perspective and an interesting point. Yeah,
I totally see where you're coming from on that one, Boddy,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It is interesting? But I don't think that those other
crimes and the media focusing attention on those crimes have
anything to do with the plea deal. The trial is
getting ready to start, the judge gave fair warning that
the last best offer was to be expected and at
the you know, at the end of June, early July,
and so the deadline was fast approaching, and they hit
(02:56):
it right at the deadline, hours before gas before right,
And I mean, let's be real, I think that even
though like things are in the media, like Travis Decker,
I mean, those things are still going to be in
the media, But the Coburger trial would have one hundred
percent taken over crime news once it started. So I
don't necessarily think media attention anything to do with it.
I think it was just the normal process, and the
deadline was approaching, you know, I just think it's the
(03:19):
normal process.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Yeah, By the way, Stephanie, great name and great question
and also particularly salient question given all of the what's news,
what's real that's going on in the universe right now,
So well timed, but I will double down on Body,
and I think it simply had to do with the
timeline that already was stipulated and Brian Cooberger, he was
(03:41):
not winning anything that his defense was putting forth.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Nothing was getting pushed.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
They weren't accepting the alternate perpetrators, and the.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Death penalty was not getting removed. They denied that order.
There were so many emotions that were getting denied, and
you know, quite honestly, not his favorite. His backup was
literally up against the wall, and he either accepted it
and they went to trial and rolled dice or take
the deal. And family members of the victims have continued
to come out with what they think about this plea deal, which,
(04:14):
as Body just said, takes off the death penalty for
murdering the four University of Idaho students. So Xanna Kernodle's mother,
she's broken her silence, and she acknowledged that she was
at first upset, and she said, I felt like I
wouldn't get any more any answers. But now I see
that the Lord had his hand in it. And it
(04:36):
turns out that she was actually with a group of
really close friends from church when she heard it, and
she felt that that was kind of a sign that
that was where she needed to be. So that is
where Xana Kernodle's mother falls. Separately, Xanna Kernodle's father. He
said he does disagree with the deal because it does
(04:56):
not require Coburger to give.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
Any ann or allocate am I saying.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
That, Yeah, the allocation, I could not agree more. It's
so upsetting to me. Also, again, I'm a little teed
up tonight, so I apologize in advance, but yeah, like,
how do you get a plea deal as a killer
who murdered four completely innocent people without having to give
any details as to why that night? Like what can
(05:23):
we learn from this? Why that night? What was the
inciting incident in his personal life? Not suggesting there was
one with the victims, but.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Like why that night? Why that morning?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I should say, it just upsets me that this guy
still calls the shots. And I'm hoping that on this
hearing coming up this week, we get a little indication
that that's not the case, because right now it feels
like where Brian Coberger is sitting, he's sort of the
man who gets to kind of get his way and
decide who lives, who dies, and who hears what or doesn't.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
And it's upsetting. And I think this is going to
sound little maybe wild, but I think he kind of
maybe enjoys the idea of the parents through this, and
that's you know, and that's one of the things. Like
the Chapins aren't going to the sentencing, and I kind
of I just have so much respect for all the family.
I mean, they've battled this very well, every single member,
(06:20):
but the Chapins man, they just they have so much
grace and they're so smart. They're just like, we're not
going to give him the satisfaction. And I really respect that,
I really do. I kind of just get the feeling
that he likes the idea that he's still inflicting some
kind of feelings onto people.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, And it's like a narcissistic psychotic tendency where there's
this energy that he's still being fed, like the beast
is being fed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Right. I totally agree he didn't really make any impressions
on people otherwise, I just feel like they're taking their
power back by not letting Brian Coberger get to them.
Does that make sense? It does, Yeah, it does make sense.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
And I still think that Prosecutor Bill Thompson will need
to answer to this. May not be the right phrasing,
but I think he needs to answer to this because
it does.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
See, it's the worst deal in history. If there's no
allocution or you know, some kind of unpack of why
this happened, it's the worst deal in history.
Speaker 6 (07:18):
That's right, this is true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker.
We were just talking about the Idaho college murder case
and we are going to be continuing on with headlines.
But listen, we want to hear from you. Give us
a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime or
(07:39):
hit us on the talkbacks. Body, what else in the news? Epstein, Epstein, Epstein,
epstation can't take it?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
You know, you're a fish. I am, I'm you know.
I never followed this. It just I know it's crime,
and obviously when he's in prison, right, it's obviously a crime.
It just wasn't like, I think we all have different
interests when it comes to crime, you know, and I'm
usually kind of on the murder side of things, you know,
and this wasn't that, And I just had so many
other things on my plate that it just never But
(08:09):
now I'm on board, you know. Now I'm with you, Stephanie,
I'm with you. So Delaine Maxwell, the Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice
in all the sex trafficking and you know, bad deeds,
her hideout hits the market. Her one hundred and fifty
six acre New Hampshire property where she was arrested in
twenty twenty has been for sale for two point five
(08:31):
million dollars, which is, you know, really a lot higher
than the one point one million purchase price back in
December of twenty nineteen. She purchased the estate under the
alias Janet Marshall and through an LLC linked her and
then partners thought organ Stone. I got to get into this.
Were they not together? Were no?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
They had like divorced And by the way, this also
makes me crazy. So Gilaine Maxwell, Yeah, she's obviously serving
a sentence behind bars and now she's going to make
a little cash on this house. But she was married,
and we don't really know much of him. My assertion
is that they were no longer together and had divorced,
but I would like to know more about that, if
anybody listening has any more details.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
There is public uncertainty on who's going to profit from this,
whether it's going to go to her legal defense or
be allocated to her victims, because she can't profit.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And you and I were just talking about this ps
you know, just in the parallel universe that I feel
like we all find ourselves in. She's like trying to
speak and go ahead, fill us in because it so
all seems too connected.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Obviously, I'm on board now, right, So I'm reading all
about it today and she is appealing her conviction and
it's all the way to the Supreme Court. It was
denied at the lower courts, but it made it to
the Supreme Court. Well, the DOJ had to respond by today,
which is crazy. Coincidence, I mean, is it? Is it?
(09:53):
I don't know?
Speaker 6 (09:54):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
There's no coincidences, And this is again not political. I
find myself in a posthetic spot that I'm right in the
middle of not knowing anything and who to trust in anyone,
and it's so upsetting. So, I mean, all hundreds of
girls were sexually abused underage.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
It is a ring.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
We know this arguably maybe the largest ring in the world.
How are we not getting this information? And Gilaine Maxwell
is going to get her household from twenty something just well,
it's the whole Glaine thing.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
So apparently the Epstein pled Okay, so he took a
plea deal, and part of that plea deal was that
none of his co conspirators would be prosecuted. Okay, that's
part of the deal. Well, Glaine Maxwell is been prosecuted.
Her argument to the courts is like, what am I
doing here? I thought the plea deal said that nobody
(10:47):
was going to else was going to be prosecuted. So
that's kind of like a really like lame unpack of
her argument.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Okay, but she's been behind bars for many years now,
I know the fact that it suddenly is a hot
ticket item, then her no docket is I think interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Would love to hear everybody's opinion.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Also, the fact that she's, you know, according to the
recent developments by you know, Pam Bondy, et cetera, that
you know she's serving time for I guess a crime
that didn't exist, given that there's no real list. So yeah,
of course it's a woman that's serving the time for
dirty deeds done by gentlemen of power.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
Well, she had her hands were plenty.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, and she should serve the time, and like, we
should let this rest and let her rot behind bars.
And I'm all for it, you know, But it just
seems like the thing that is slipping through the cracks
and is like getting lost in the sauce in the
media is that there were two hundred plus young curls.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Well, just because there's no client list doesn't mean there
weren't clients though, right, Like, yeah, listen, if I'm doing
illegal things, and I'm not, but if I were to
be doing legal things, I'm not going to keep track
of it. I'm not going to have a list of
like my customers. I'm going to have them in my head.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Well, if you're using it as a revenge tool and
using it as blackmail and high profile, you don't know
why scenarios allegedly allegedly allegedly, then you know what, you
might have a list.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
You might but we don't know that that's what's happening.
We think that's what's happening. I mean, I'm on board
with you with that. I think it is very possible
that he was like this double agent, you know that
was I feel, oh yeah, and we're all frustrated.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
So does everybody. It is the actual definition. I do
think it's an overused word, but it is perfectly applied
to this.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Because it's literally something.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
You see the light flashing, Bondie saying, I have the list,
It's on my desk, cut to no, it's not there.
But listen, everyone stick around. When we come back, we're
going to be diving back into Epstein.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
There is still a lot to unpack.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
There's a lot doing with the fallout of the Karen
read trial, and there's the saga of Turtle Boy, which
was kind of the story within the story of the
Karen Reid story. Keep it here on True Crime Tonight
eight at eight three One Crime.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body move in and the phones are buzzing.
So first up, we have a caller, Hi, Welcome to
the show. Hi, Glenn, Yes, tell us everything Glenn, I.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Think that's great. I'm seventy six years old and I'm
doing fine, excellent, and.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
We're glad you called. Thank you for calling. What's your question?
Speaker 7 (13:38):
Yes, I think the reason the Epstein files are not
going to be distributed because Trump's on them. I'm sorry,
President Trump is on them, and that's why they're never
going to be revealed.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Why would he say he was going to So this
is where I get so nuts, Glenn, and ladies please
jump in, because let's be honest, right, there's a lot
of very high profile people, whether it's our current president
or previous president's.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
You know, it seems like that list might have been long.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And why would he say he was going to release
it knowing full well that he was possibly on it.
We've seen so many photographs of them all together. Clearly,
just beaucause you're photograph doesn't mean you're a pedophile. But still,
I just feel like that's so confusing, and I don't
know that I disagree with you.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Thank you for the call, Glenn, And I want to
say it's probably because he was never planning on releasing
it was never going to happen. I don't believe he
was ever going to listen. Presidents lie to us all
the time. I mean not just President Trump, but all
of them. How many times have we been like he
you literally just said this five minutes ago, and now
you're saying you didn't. I mean all the time. And
(14:49):
I just think it was never going to get released.
Biden wasn't never going to release it, true Trump, even
though he ran on it and said I'm going to
release it, because Biden's been sitting on it was is
never going to happen.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
And the running on the running on things not an
exact parallel. But listen, politicians do they go for election
in poetry and then they govern in prose.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, So that said poetic Courtney, I'm strong, arm strong, listen.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
But Courtney and I are addicted to the West Way. Yes, okay,
so we know all the quotes.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
Okay, but it is when you're going for election, you say,
and to Body's point, it's every politician known to man,
I am going to say exactly what you want to
hear in order to get you where I need you
to be, and then things change. So I firmly agreed
he had no universe.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
He was going to open this.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Let me ask, though, are we all going to agree
in this most tenuous time in my life at least
and most of our lives, right that the world's gone nuts.
Everything seems upside down. There's floods, there's fires, the planes
are falling out of the sky. And again, this is
not a political show. In order we even try to,
I wouldn't stand a day. I believe in love, in
(16:01):
peace and unity, and that's kind of my personal goal.
But man, is it upsetting that there's just no island
to hold on to. Pu not intended, but like maybe
we all collectively on every side of it, can finally
say like enough is enough.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Let's call it something else other than politics.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Let's call it, you know, cohesiveness or I'm the cohesive president.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I don't know, but there is just.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Like the divide is not helping and the lies are enough.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
But I think that this specific subject, I don't think
it's you know, Republican versus Democrat. I think because that's
what they were like playing against each other. But I
think like the Epstein thing, though, I think all of
us are upset, like.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Now, all of us absolutely, maybe for the first time,
we could all agree on this.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You know, it's like what brings country.
Speaker 6 (16:48):
Maybe this is the island that we hold on to,
Stephanie Epstein's island.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think we have a talk.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
Back ay true crime tonight. I just wanted to say that.
I think it's crazy how people thought Trump was going
to release the Epstein list when in his first term
he had Alex Acosta and his cabinet and that's the
guy who gave Jeffrey Epstein his plea deal back in
two thousand and eight.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
What and he.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
Also had Alan Drschowitz as his impeachment lawyer, who was
obviously Epstein's defense lawyer. So what kind of forward eachest
did these people think Trump was playing here?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Do we have the smartest listeners?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, that's a great Did you notice I talk
about connecting those dots and you know earlier, thank you
Glenn for your call too. But that's very complicated and
very accurate. Well, and you noticed he didn't leave his
name for his own safety, right?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yea off this show real time? No, but he makes
it a point, right? And isn't it interesting the men
call for Epstein.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's interesting because I find that really refreshing, I know,
because a woman, Yeah, it feels like nobody cares about
the victims, and I know we all do say we
care about sex trafficking ooh, and like underage victims ooh,
but it's so gross and hideous. And to know that,
like yeah, that you know, men are beginning to rally
with everybody and like enough is enough, Like we can
(18:05):
do better, we can do better.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
He makes a great point too about you know Dershowitz,
and it's all intertwined and it's very can we so
go ahead of court?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Sorry, Oh, I was gonna say to make sure I
understood it fully, and like let's really break that down.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
So one more thing. And I really do love this
talk back as well. So been reading up on Dershwitz
today and yeah, he has said point blank, this was
back in March. I know the names of the individuals.
I know why are they're being suppressed. I know who's
suppressing them, but I'm bound by confidentiality from a judge
and the cases and I can't disclose. But I know
(18:42):
the names of the people whose files are being suppressed
in order to protect them.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And let me ask you. So.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
He was the defense attorney of Epstein back when he
was brought up on his initial charges in West Palm Beach.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Am I getting that correct or not correct?
Speaker 6 (18:58):
No, he was a little but not the puppet strings.
But he was not barred. He could not practice law
in Florida.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Oh right. He helped set.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Up the entire legal team and he was also, wasn't he,
like Trump, one of Trump's impeachment lawyers?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yes? I didn't realize that. Yes, now Acosta, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Let's go there, because I want to make sure I'm
tracking this correctly.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I don't really understand his involvement. He was the former
secretary of Labor. How does he fit into this? He
was what I.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Think he signed off on the plea deal initially and maybeary.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Of labor signing off on a plea deal? Was he
something else at the time? Great question? A former member.
I wish our talk back would call us right back?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
There was something? Was there a connection to Bill Clinton
in this one? Because edge of.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
My seat, I have another one here? Okay, So this
was a quick google because I did not know the answer.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It is.
Speaker 6 (19:52):
It's a lot to look into Alex Acosta. So, yes,
he was the former Labor secretary. However it was what
he was a US attorney in Florida. Oh, that's when
cave sex trafficker Epstein a non prosecution agreement, which is.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
What Delanne maxwell is the best.
Speaker 9 (20:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Wait, so the non prosecution agreement that was given by
Acosta back in the day basically says he gets away
with it and then he goes on Jeffrey Epstein to
go traffic more and hundreds more women after that, when
everyone knows full well that he had already been charged
on sex crimes with underage girls.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 8 (20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Uh, oh my god, it's so gross. Do we think
this list ever existed? Like for real?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Of course everyone's talking about this idea.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I'm new to this. I'm new to this. You gotta
give me some grace.
Speaker 6 (20:45):
And I have to say that, Stephanie, you asked me
earlier before we were on the air.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You're like, aren't you angry?
Speaker 6 (20:51):
And I don't know if numbs the right answer, but
I in my mind, I believe in such a certainty
that sort of power corrupts an absolute corrupts absolutely. And
this is the biggest thing that I've seen to prove
that in such a way. And it's a horrible thing.
And they say it's a pessimistic look at life to your.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Point, I'm kind of numb to it. I'm just like, Eh,
it doesn't because like, yeah, I'm angry, But at the
same time, I expect it.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I know, it's like, think about it, what are we expecting?
We're just like numb to the idea that potentially very influential,
potential world leaders are having sex with underage girls as
a ring to benefit or profit worldwide is horrifying if
that's the baseline, you know, all of like the conspiracy
(21:36):
theories of Yesterdaear that we all used to roll our
eyes out. I'm like, oh, oh my god, is there
some like where is the truth in this? It's not
like we're talking about, oh, the Academy award was rigged,
or we're talking about ooh, like that person got fired
for you know, misspeaking. It's people make mistakes. Of course,
people misspeak. I do it every night, and I really
(21:56):
learn and try to do the right thing. This is
a very real crime at a very real inflection point
as a country, and I think we all got I'm
on a soapbox right now. I just think we all
you're making better and can do better, and I hope
somebody steps forward that can kind of be a shining
light during what seems like a really dark time. And
(22:18):
to know that everybody and their brother on every side
and every position of power has some sort of you
know two dot connection to pedophilia? Is Is this so
yucky that I don't even it makes me choked up?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Right now? I need a time out. Let's talk about
where's Blake Lively? Need some more lighthearted news? Right?
Speaker 8 (22:38):
No?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I mean, Stephanie, we're on your side, Like no, I know,
I don't know why. It's like I just had.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
The politicsmolitics, and it's like always like it also bums
me out that we're also accustomed to just being like, well,
that's politics for you. It's like politics are running our lives.
We all work so hard and we pay hard taxes
and life is not easy and people are really suffering
and the climate's crazy and this is crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's like what do we believe? You know? Is it
fake news? Is it real news? Is it Instagram? Is
it fake?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Are we double sourcing stuff? I listened to Fox, I
listened to CNN. I watch every possible news source I
could possibly get my hands on. I listened to Reddit,
you know it, just in hopes of aggregating the meat
and potatoes so that there's some middle zone. And like,
I'm not running for office, but I want to look
up to somebody.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
But why do we need to have like a master's
degree in like comprehension to find out what the real
news is? Why do you have to go why do
you have to aggregate the news? Why are you having
to do that? Because it is so divided and everybody
has an agenda as soon as there's a mass shooting.
Oh he was a Republican. Oh he was a Democratic.
It's like people can't just go sit back and just
(23:43):
wait for things to come in. They have to jump
forward and just blame me the other side. And it's
getting old, and it's.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Getting old, and maybe I'm all collectively just like this
is maybe an inflection point I think it might be,
and listen to jump in, like, please tell me how
wrong I am. I get it, and you know, let's
all sort of maybe this can be a place that
we can all huddle together and share our thoughts and
you know, maybe solve some stuff and get some justice.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, well we're going to see if we can do that.
So although Karen Reid might not be guilty, the journalist
who popularized her case is just starting to defend himself
from all sorts of criminal charges. We'll be diving into
the story of the controversial Turtle Boy, and later we
want to hear from you. Give us a call at
eight thirty one Crime. We'll be right back. Keep it
right here on two Prid.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Tonight, and I'm taking a deep breath trying to kind
of cool it. So we'll put a pin and all
things Epstein. But we do have some other cases that
we'll be following later in the show. This potential serial
killer in Maine and also this twisted, turned up hideous
(24:54):
case of the young teenager accused of killing her mom
and Blake Lively justin Courtney wasn't joking earlier. They'll be
back in court, or she'll be back in court at
least on Thursday, it appears, so we'll be following that
closely as well.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
But first, a little bit about Karen Reid.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
As you guys know, she was found not guilty for
her second trial and there seems to be some new developments.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
What do you have for us?
Speaker 6 (25:21):
So, yes, Karen Reid has been acquitted of any and
all homicide charges and her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, police officer
out of Massachusetts. She has been cleared of his twenty
twenty two death. She has landed a lucrative book deal
and a TV adaptation which people were speculating would be happening.
And here we are. And then here's where a tragedy
(25:44):
really strikes. Aside from the death of John O'Keeffe, both
witnesses and John O'Keefe's family members, they've been enduring harassment
in the aftermath of this trial. So the people who
were you know, the free Karen Read people in pink
with the signs, they need to take it down about
one hundred and fifty notches, is my opinion, because they
(26:05):
are at this point just harassing the family of a
man who's dead.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, Like how about that.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Like John O'Keeffe, victim who you know, really is at
the center of this lost his life. He was caring
for his deceased sister and deceased brother in law's young
children and has a mother who apparently, you know, Peggy o'keeff,
who we've seen in the courtroom during both trials, you know,
heart wrenched. Her son has been killed. Like there are
(26:36):
clowns regardless of what you see, you know, feel about
this particular trial. There are clowns outside of her house
like legitimately harassing Peggy O'Keefe and one of the two
of you where we were talking about this earlier, where
you know, it's alleged that John O'Keeffe's you know, these
young niece and nephew, the kids that he was raising
in the absence of their now deceased parents, are like
(26:58):
getting harassed at school. People are saying free Karen Reid
and doing a huge pylon again like this is they
kind of knock it off. It makes me again. It's upsetting,
you know, it's like they're not involved, they're grieving, give
them any seconds.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I've been involved in discourse on true crime online discourse
for like a decade, and I have never seen people
be so vitriolic as I have in this case. If
you are a free Karen read person, you hate the
people who think she's guilty and vice versa. They hate
each other, and I mean, I've just never seen anything
(27:36):
this bad. And I will say it has trickled into
other cases, like in the true crime community, so there's
other cases that where people now hate each other Delphi.
For instance, if you are a Rick Rick Allen's guilty,
you hate the people who think he's innocent, and vice
versa Sebastian Rodgers he's a missing boy at a Tennessee.
(27:57):
Same thing there. I mean, there's just the hatred of
the opposing side in the discourse online is getting worse.
And I'm sure people will agree with me online that
have been also in discourse online are recognizing that it's
getting worse.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
But to that extent, Like, I hear what you're saying,
because it's both sides of a case, right, so it's
guilty not guilty. Yeah, I think we all get a
little twisted when it becomes the victims' families who have
well no heart.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
In any of this.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
They just a want justice, They want some peace, They
deserve to be able to grieve. Like, why are they
getting harassed?
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Well, in all the cases the families are getting harassed,
Oh my goodness, all the cases, IDU pomp of silly,
that's horrible.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
I mean, I agree, and like you said, just that,
you know, the civility of having opposing ideas and having
a conversation. It can get heated or not. You can
disagree and not hate.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Yeah, especially as somebody that's not involved in the crown right,
like as an onlooker or a person who enjoys the discussion.
I'm not involved in the crime, why am i? And
I'm not speaking for me personal. I'm just saying, like,
in general, getting so heated, it's getting worse.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Don't they all need a job? Everybody who's just hanging about,
you know, causing fistfights outside of any trial for that matter,
if you're not you know, there with purpose to add,
you know, it's just like becoming a circus in some
cases as well, particularly here, And.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
I mean I experienced it in Idaho. In Idaho, I
was one of the defenders of the roommates online and
I would be getting attacked all the time. I called
stupid and naive and lame and all kinds of things. Me,
you're the opposite of those uns.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
But you're also but they're also not like gallivanting in
like you know, matching garb. And you know we saw
that at Diddy's trial. They're like, you know, squirting baby
oil all over the streets of New York City. It's like,
come on, and everybody go go. Your parents raised you better.
I don't care if who raised you, I know it
was better than this, right.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Well, the o Key family, they have filed a civil
suit against Karen Reid. It's pending and so we'll see
how that plays out. And you know, again there's been
other fallout with people, like you said at literallygue games.
It sounds like former detective Michael Proctor was fired. Another
homicide supervisor has been reassigned. And this came into conversation.
(30:23):
I'm not even quite sure why. So Hank Brennan, who
was a prosecutor, earned her a little over half a
million dollars and he acknowledged the trial was marred by
witness intimidation.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
H what does that mean? So I thought, do you think?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And there was also something about one of the main witnesses,
what was her name, the one that was.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Like, oh, Kelly Dever. Yeah, you know, she took the stand.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
She was speaking on behalf of her boss and the
protocol within the police department, and seemed to have a
lot of amnesia going on, And that was also being
brought into consideration because again it falls in the same category.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Listen, we all make mistake, sometimes things go a little sideways.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
We're just asking for some honesty and transparency in the
eleventh hour when somebody's life is in jeopardy and they're
looking to a life sentence.
Speaker 6 (31:10):
Well, and Kelly Dever, Karen Read's defense attorney, has formally
requested that she be placed on the cities. It's called
the Brady List, and it's flags officers with noted credibility issues.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
We can't know officers with credibility issues. We just can't.
Everybody would agree with that, right, Well, I think every
department does, though, Oh my goodness, not every department.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
No, for every politician departments. Yes, listen, this is true
crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here
with Body Moven and Stephanie Leideker, who's taking a quick
breath of air, and then we'll be right back. Give
us a call. We're at eighty eight three one Crime.
(31:53):
We're speaking about Karen Reid and want to hear your
thoughts on kind of the fallout that's how since the
trial and Body, I think you had some more updates.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, so I'm going to be talking about Turtle Boy.
So there's a whole nother arm of this case that
very kind of controversial. I mean, this is kind of
like a powder Keg case, right where there's all kinds
of different There's a lot of people, first of all,
a lot of names, but Turtle Boy is kind of
like a central figure and nobody really maybe knows who
he is. So we're going to deep dive and do
(32:26):
who Turtle Boy is. And this is the beginning of that.
So his name is Aiden Kearney and he goes by
turtle Boy. He had a court date last week July
seventh in Massachusetts. Of course we're hearing related to alleged
witness intimidation and bail violations. He's currently facing several charges
for witness intimidation, picketting a witness, and wiretapping connected to
(32:50):
his coverage of the Karen Reid murder case. So Karen,
of course, we know who Karen Reid is. We don't
need to go into that. But okay, so let's get
an into who turtle Boy is and why he's facing
these charges. So Turtle Boy he founded the blog called
Turtle Boy Sports and it evolved into something called TV
Daily News, and he began it was an anonymous blog
(33:13):
where he was kind of like covering local corruption, politically,
charge commentary, crime and later openly identifying himself as Kearney
and of course his little his loyal Turtle riders following well.
His role in the Karen Reid case was early in
twenty twenty three, he started deep diving her case because
(33:35):
he you know, he lives in the area, and he
created a blog series called the Canton Cover Up. And
really this is kind of what ignited the Free Karen
Reid movement because Turtle Boy astuteley in looking at all
the police reports he was getting and you know, talking
to locals, he was basically investigating the case. Yeah, I mean, okay,
(33:56):
as an independent kind of journalist guy, and he was
just like really kind of the first guy that started
sounding the alarm bells that there might be some kind
of framing situation happening here, something was going on. But
he's very bold, he's very confident in how he speaks,
and that might come across to some people as intimidating, right,
(34:18):
So he's got kind of a reputation, and in doing so,
he got charged with witness intimidation, ticketting a witness, and
wiretapping because he was investigating this case without police involvement.
So here we are, and that's We're going to continue
this conversation because it's a lot to it's really a
lot to unpack.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
A Turtle Boy and you gets better than anybody as
a super rich I do. And that's why detective of
your own who does it so ethically, and he really
did crack it open. I mean Karen Reid when she
was found not guilty, it was Karen Reid, her dad
and then her defense attorney and Turtle Boy at the podium, right,
they were like, she really does credit him.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
He kind of rallied the troops, He organized public demonstrations,
he sold merchandise, he live streamed interactions. He staged these
rolling rallies which were like these caravan protests, like going
past the homes of the witnesses, and I mean, listen,
that's that's kind of intimidation. Though, well that's what he
(35:21):
was charged with. Right. So this is a whole separate
case outside of Karen read but it's you know, affiliated,
it's like another arm of that case. And I think
a lot of the people and this is not I
don't believe Turtle Boy's fault by any stretching the imagination.
I'm not blaming him, but this whole you know, the
family getting harassed, I think kind of comes from that.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
The spirit of those those protests. Wow, it's like there's
no way to It's tough on all sides. Right, He's
doing the right thing and at the same time taking
it too far potentially.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I don't know, it sure seems so all right.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's officially getting a little bit rowdy here in the
studio as we speak. Listen, Hey, Glenn, we were so
psyched to hear from you. We were just talking about
it from the break we were back because I feel
like we want more Glenn Moore's world needs Yes, the
world needs more Glenn.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
We have a talk back now, So yeah, here we go.
Speaker 9 (36:15):
Hi, True crime tonight. So honestly, I'm confused by people
are so surprised that the president isn't releasing these files. Like,
in my opinion, it's pretty normal for a politician to
say one thing during a campaign to get elected and
then do something else when they're actually in office. We've
seen this time and time again with presidents from every party,
(36:36):
and I don't understand why people are getting so mad
about the specific instance, Like, isn't this just what politics is?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The double talk is the name of the game.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Is that what we're suggesting here that we all accept
double talk?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Well, I mean to her, I think she's listen, I
think she's right though, no, I know she's right, but
it doesn't mean that she's one hundred percent right. Of
course she's right. Unfortunately, though, I think we shouldn't accept it.
Couldn't be like we shouldn't sit back and be like, well, well,
it's just politics. I have an idea, what lie detector tests?
Oh gosh, yes, we'll do the debates hooked up during
(37:11):
the right now, hope, please, we're going to get that
sorted out. You're going to call your old coworkers show
right now. Yes, we're going to get that solved, because
I feel like that's part of just the issue. I
don't even know what they're saying.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
It's just like, can someone just say it transparently that
we can illegal for something?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It should be illegal to campaign knowing that you're lying. Yeah,
like it should have jail time. I agree they should be, But.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
Then how do you say were you lying at the
time or no, you absolutely meant to do.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
I feel like I.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
Don't know how you evolve your standards.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
You should what you can evolve your opinion. Many people
do that and they say, hey, look I got it wrong.
Now I have it right, and I got it wrong.
But in Trump's case, if I'm not mistaken, he was
our you know, president once before, so he would have
had access to those files, which according to Elon Musk,
which again I know, I'm just like pulling out all
kinds of sources.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I don't know who's what's what.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
But isn't he saying that he also saw the list
and he was in the in Trump, if he was
running on that for the second time, he's running on
something he said he saw. So it's not like it
was like, oh, I misspoke, because we get that we're
all human blakes.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Your opinions change, you grow.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
No, I think it's a blatant lie, and I think
we're not talking about any sort of growth. We're talking
about the least common denominator under which we are all living,
which is not cheerful.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
We're going to turn this around. Yes, we have another talkback.
Speaker 10 (38:42):
Hey, I had a question about the Epstein trial. I
don't really follow. It's just super dark, honestly, but yeah,
I have a question about how long after his body
was hanging or like he was dead did it take
for them to find him and if.
Speaker 8 (38:56):
That matters at all?
Speaker 10 (38:58):
And also the whole missing of footage. I mean, that's insane,
that seems nuts. But yeah, I was just wondering.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Great question again, really good smartest crime crew. So I
last night we had Joseph Scott Morgan on Forensic Expert
and I asked him about this, and it might have
been during commercial and I didn't mean it if it was,
but he explained that the libidity of the blood pooling
in his back area suggested that he was hanging there
for about two hours and they found him at six
(39:28):
thirty in the morning, so around that would be around
four to four thirty in the morning that you know
he quote unquote killed himself. And I'm using the air
quotes but you can't see. So yeah, two hours and
yeah that missing minute and the aspect ratio change and
and the metadata being two videos sliced together.
Speaker 6 (39:48):
It's like I edited it, which is really saying something.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
It really is. It's great, gustrous, You're one hundred percent right,
So no, it is preposterous. Listen, keep it here.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
We have as of developments about the Menanda's brothers and
a potential serial killer in the Northeast question Mark keep
it Here True Crime tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
So we've discussed the Karen Read stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
We're going to really follow this turtle boy situation that
body was telling us about later in the week as well.
And there's this crazy, really unusual case about Sarah Grace
Patrick and she's this young teenager who allegedly, allegedly allegedly
killed her mother and her stepfather and it's a real
twisted one. So we're going to hear more about that.
(40:44):
And then also there may be a serial killer on
the loose in Maine, a very unexpected place, and one
of our listeners, Esther was, was smart enough and kind
enough to reach out and give us some scoop, and
we're digging into that. So, ladies, who wants to go first,
raise your right hand. I will raise my right hand.
Speaker 6 (41:07):
I'm strong, yes, And if I were Blake Lively, I
would say I would like to raise my right hand
and be very comfortable in private while I do it.
Oh yeah, So here is what just happened. So a
judge granted Blake Lively a protective order and this is
ahead of her deposition in the Justin Baldoni case. So
a deposition is basically you sit there, you're not in
(41:29):
a courtroom, and you answer a lot of questions in
a legal proceeding. So what she was granted that she
will be protected so there can be no and this
is great, there can be no harassment, intimidation or undo
burden during these proceedings. And the person the protected in
this case Lively, she gets determined for where her deposition
(41:54):
will take place.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
She will be private and comfortable.
Speaker 6 (41:59):
And it seems like Justin Baldoni, who is going to
be doing his side, is going to be doing the deposition.
He had other things to say, and he suggested that
they do the deposition in Madison Square Garden and stream
it or sell tickets. And he did say that, and
(42:20):
he said, listen, we'll do it to raise funds for
abuse victims, which could be seen as a lovely thing. Honestly,
I mean, who wouldn't want money for abuse victims? But
Lively's side certainly condemned it. What are the.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Odds that that movie was actually about SA in sexual assault?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
It ends with Us, which I loved, and you know,
you know, the book series was so highly regarded the
film that Justin Baldoni directed as well as start in
alongside the beautiful Blake Lively. Who I mean, I've always
been a mega Blake Lively fan, I mean, gossip girl
to the end. So all of this kind of is
a hard pill to swallow, I guess, because it's two sided.
(43:01):
If Blake Lively has gotten a bad rap and was
in fact, you know, harassed at work or felt that
she was put into compromising exploitative positions in the workplace
by Justin Baldoni, of course that should be that should
be handled. But if it was just a pr move
or a smear campaign to get the rights of the
book back. I mean, there's been so many theories about this.
(43:24):
If that ends up being the case, who his I mean,
obviously it's seeming like the judge says it's not the case,
you know, thankfully, But man, that doesn't help victims at all.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
You know, Stephanie, you're my source for like all things
like celebrity means gossip. I don't Again, I haven't really
followed this Justin Baldon thing, but he was countersuiting, correct, he.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
Was in a very real riot, right, that's right, So Lively,
just real quick, Blake Lively, she followed a suit she
accused Justin Baldoni, co star and director of the movie,
of sexual harassment as well as for retaliation during the
making of It Ends with Us, the movie they were
in together. Baldoni roundly denied the claim, and he did
(44:11):
file a four hundred million dollar countersuit, and that was
for extortion and defamation. That was against Blake Lively and
her husband Ryan Reynolds, another movie star that has been
dismissed and has not been refiled bodies.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
So you're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And look, there was like this back and forth petty
betty stuff right where it seems like he was saying
one thing and then there was a text exchange that
said the other, and we were all kind of getting
washed away in this PR machine, which it does seem
as though at its core there was some nefarious or
you know, maybe this is just again another category politics. Okay, fine,
(44:50):
I guess PR that that this is like a machine
that is an underbelly in Hollywood that we're learning about
maybe through this case where PR machines sort of kind
of go undercurrent and create these smear campaigns allegedly allegedly allegedly,
and that becomes big business. Who knows. But at the
end of the day, yes, Justin Beldoni was countersuing he
(45:12):
has a very affluent, wealthy partner at Wayfair Entertainment who
made the movie that justin' directed and started in and
they saw a really sour end to that. That was
a hard no. So now we're back on track for
Blake Lively to go back to where she started, which
was this original lawsuit basically saying she was indigging it
(45:33):
in that she was put in very uncomfortable situations in
the workplace, right.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
And you're right, Stephanie about I know we touched about
this just for just a hot second, but just PR
and what that does and what it does. It seems
like in this moment, PR isn't just to get quote
the word out as in there's a movie. PR seems
to have changed into we're going to put out whatever
(45:59):
reality we feel like they change out.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Exactly, changing the narrative right like, yes, completely and structuring
the naraks and reality.
Speaker 6 (46:09):
It's wicked, terrifying, all of it. I mean it is terrifying,
and it echoes Stephanie, I'll get your straight jacket out.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
This is all echoes of Epstein.
Speaker 6 (46:19):
No and it is all of it's infuriating, but yeah,
the warping, there are no facts anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
It appears we even heard and I know we have
to do a quick segment. Listen that you're listening to
True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Please join us eight eight
eight three one crime. Jump in, join the conversation. We're
talking about Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. Blake Lively is
said to appear at a hearing on Thursday and is
looking for some security. This hearing is kind of going
back in time to the original lawsuit that was placed
(46:47):
where she felt as though she was being harassed in
the workplace. And then we're talking about this like the
public relations machine. It used to be old school, like, oh,
I'm a pr person again. I'm paraphizing. I don't totally
know the inner workings of this, but I'm surprised by
it in current times where it's like, oh, I want
my movie to get some press, So the stars of
that movie are going to go on the Jimmy Kimmel Show,
(47:10):
where they're going to go on you know Fallon or
Saturday Night Live. They're going to host to promote the
film that has been you know, so much money invested
by a studio, Okay, I get it.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Or if there's like.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
A scandal, ooh, found doing drugs at the Chateau Marmont, Okay,
PR people, they're going to jump in and say nothing
to see here and like kind of bury it air quotes.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I kind of understood it that way.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
But now as we here are here with social media,
it says though a real piece of the machine is
putting out snippets and clipbait on on social media. That
really does, to your point body reframe the narrative. And
that's pretty scary stuff because in the eve of fake news,
anybody can be made to look crazy. In fact, I
(47:55):
was just whether this is unsubstantiated because I don't know
what's real anymore, but there was a trusted source that
I really do believe it. In fact, I'm trying to
get her to come on the show to talk about
it herself. Is claiming that the Diddy trial, for example,
social media influencers were being paid like forty k a
pop to put out positive things about the trial on
(48:19):
social media. Now that's unsubstantiated, but just as an example
of what PR machines do, they could potentially employ many
many people to put posts and you know here I
am Facebook, and.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
To create a story. Yeah what they're not on the jury, right,
So no, it's public opinion.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
It's public opinion, and isn't that ultimately, which is why
we have the same thing with politics, which is why
we're having the same thing on social media. This is like,
it's not about celebrities anymore. It's not about promoting a
movie anymore. It's not even about it ends with us anymore.
The film that this all started in, which by the way,
head of the beautiful sentiment and really beautiful message, man
(49:02):
has that got washed up? And again, if you have
a bunch of deep pockets and real money to spend,
not a blad place, suspend it. If you want to
look real good despite real bad behavior. So I don't know,
I don't know where that shakes out in this, but
I wouldn't mind doing a series on this or if
anybody listening has any inside scoop into this machine, because
I know that of course there are wonderful pr people
(49:23):
that this is not the jam, but I do think
it's a part of the every day that we're seeing,
and I personally find it real confusing and terrifying.
Speaker 6 (49:32):
I mean, remember the simple days, and this is not
to make super light of it, but the simple days
when the biggest thing in PR was Lizzie Grubman, high
powered celebrity backing in Hampton in the Hamptons.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yes, because she had too many cocktails in a Hampton's party.
Like that was like, oh scandal, it was like ooh,
page six.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Now It's like that is how it is done, and
real money is being put to it.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
And I don't know how you and I don't know
if you. I kind of like I think of like
troll farms, like you know, you learn you you hear
about like the people that you know they're in a
there's maybe fifty people in a room and their desk
is just cell phones, right, like lines of cell phones
just making comments Like you know, is that a thing? Yeah?
I didn't know that. That's kind of what I what
(50:19):
I imagine in my mind when you're talking about this kind
of thing. That's what I like see in my head,
Like these major firms, like these PR firms that are
buying bots and you know, these these troll farms to
push a narrative on social media.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Boy is that a good point because also don't forget
ais of everything, Like I have a thinking suspicion this
is based on nothing, and I have based on the
smartest in the room. But in terms of the next
president or the United States, I bet you an influencer,
somebody from social media, not AI is going to galvanize
(50:59):
the people. Sobody who was unrelated to politics altogether, no
association whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
There really are in idiocracy at this point.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
It is we're at that time that that we listen
more to what we're and by the way, myself included,
I have to check myself all the time to make
sure we're sourcing things twice because but it does. It's
like impactful, it has mass appeal, you can edit it,
there's a platform, there's a machine pushing it out. It's
just I think it's something for us all to kind
(51:28):
of unpack and think about as we as we you know,
true crimate together.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Well, you're right, because we do have to source everything
two or three times. Yeah, and that's kind of new,
you know, it said we would just kind of like okay,
ABC said it, but now we're having to be like, okay,
well let's go get four other sources. Exactly. It's a
different time. Yeah, scary.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
There's a lot of cases that are unfolding right now
that we're just starting. We're seeding them as how we
say it here behind closed doors. So this Sarah Grace
Patrick is this teenager who allegedly, allegedly allegedly killed her
mother and her stepfather. And what's kind of twisted about
this case is that she allowed her younger sibling if
(52:12):
this is true, So frankly, I find the bodies, which
is messy, and she's so young, and she's being tried
as an adult. So we're going to dig into that one.
And then also this potential serial killer.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
In Maine, I mean, New England.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Not really known for its serial killers, but this is
something we're going to start monitoring closely. So body, yes,
where would you like to start and who would you
like to start with?
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Well, let's talk about the potential serial killer in mean
So I'm not exactly sure why they think it's a
serial killer, but we're going to unpack it anyway. But
just keep in mind, I don't know where they're getting
the serial killer from. I don't know if they're trying
to connect it to the potential serial killer in like
the Boston and the Connecticut area, but me is quite
(53:00):
a far distance.
Speaker 6 (53:01):
I was gonna say, body, that's my gross understanding too.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
That's the correlation people are making, right, But let's keep
it in the back of your mind that this is
potentially part of the New England serial killer, you know,
story that we've been covering since we went live, right, yeah,
since day one. We've been since day one. Yeah, So
this is the in Maine again. On July second, forty
eight year old Sunshine Sunny as she goes by Sunny Stewart,
(53:29):
she went on a solo paddleboarding excursion in Crawford Pond
in Union, Maine. Okay, July second, you know, she was
paddling all evening and the following Oh but she never
came home. Okay, the following evening. Game wardens discovered her
body around one am on July third. So she leaves
(53:50):
July second, she's discovered it hits midnight, one o'clock in
the morning. Okay. Now it's on a like a really
small island in this pond. Investigators quickly ruled her death
a homicide, finding her under quote unquote unusual circumstances. Also,
we don't know what that means, right, we don't know
(54:11):
what those unusual circumstances mean, but that has only fueled
this speculation that there's a serial killer. Right. So the
more tight lips the authorities are about like her manner
of death, that these unusual circumstances they found her in,
the more speculation, you know, is going to run rampant
on social media about a potential serial killer. So this
(54:33):
is like a really like tight knit area and it's
kind of like a sleepy area. Everyone is described as
like very This is like completely unexpected to happen in
this area of the country. It's just not something that
the police, quite frankly, are accustomed to. The people who
live there are not accustomed to. This is incredibly unusual,
(54:56):
so that everyone awoke the next morning to like grief
and shock and fear, and friends who you know had
been at the campground just days earlier are just like
really overcome with this. Oh my god, this lady was
just murdered at our campground.
Speaker 6 (55:15):
On a little pond. I mean, what could sound more peaceful?
But I do think body that you're so right that
when there is a dearth of information and investigators keep
a close hold which can be for so many really
good reasons that people do try and just fill that
void of there is no information, let me put in
my own, and it can get a little.
Speaker 3 (55:36):
Because people want to fill the void, right, and things
can kind of just run rampant. So the autopsy did
confirm it was a homicide, though the cause of death
has not been publicly released, and I don't know that
it ever will in these kind of things. Investigators have
not named any suspects, and there's been, you know, a
multi agency search initially for her because she was reported missing,
(55:58):
like the game wardens, fire department, sheriff deputies, they were
all launched shortly after she went missing, and they found her,
Like I said, at one o'clock in the morning, this
is a really small pond. I kind of am a
little confused on why they needed all these people to
search it. It's the only I mean, at its deepest,
(56:19):
it's only fifty seven feet in this island they found
around it's only one hundred acres, So I'm kind of curious.
There's a lot of like missing pieces, and I think
that's probably why Esther sent us, you know, one of
our listeners sent us this case because there's a lot
of missing pieces that we want to dig into, but
we just kind of started this today. So but it
was only a matter of hours, and it was dark,
(56:42):
it was very dark in the evening and she was
found by one am. So, yes, what you're saying is
quite small, but in the scope of things in the dark,
starting to scratch. So the main state police acknowledged that
the community is really scared that the serial killer. You know,
(57:03):
rumors are igniting and now in Maine, and they urged
the community and the residents to stay calm and report
any suspicious activity, stating that there is no confirmed connection
between any of the cases. Another high profile cases involves
a twenty one year old Adrian Suazzo, whose body was
found in a wooded area of Milton, Massachusetts. So it's
(57:26):
out in nature. It's you know, so sierable there is it.
Have you been? Yeah, I've been there. Actually, that's a
beautiful neck of the woods. Her remains show no signs
of trauma, and her cause of death is still under investigation,
so there is some things there. Sonny Stewart's sister, Kim Ware,
(57:47):
described her the victim, as a beloved marine biologist and
boat captain who had sailed the Caribbean through a hurricane,
Like this is a fierce woman. What calling her a
selfless and she lived life unapologetically and she died in
this little small body of water. Yeah, well, again, the
(58:08):
investigation said, quote unquote suspicious circumstances.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
Such an interesting thing, you know, because we were talking
about this earlier. One of the cases that we're working
on separately on KT you know, is something we've been
working on for a while, and it's like we need answers,
like we think we've connected some serious dots, right, but
we also don't want to interrupt a police investigation. Obviously,
we work alongside police officers and by the way, given
(58:34):
all the Karen Reid nonsense, we work alongside very great
ones as well. So shout out to the men in
blue and women I might add in blue. So you know,
it's on the one hand, we're calling it a serial killer.
There might be some real truth to that. There might be,
And at the same time, there might be some information
being with held from the public because it's connected to
(58:55):
something which is connected to something which is connected to
something and you know, and.
Speaker 3 (58:59):
If that gets out, and if that gets out, then
the person, the serial killer if it is one, No,
they got to change their manner of operandi, you know,
they got to change their manner of killing. They gotta
you know, this happened with the nightstalker. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
You just nailed it on the head there, because it's
an interesting thing I hadn't. You know, we want answers
and we want transparency, and then sometimes it's like, look,
we're trying to not tip off the killer. Who's also
probably because serial killers sometimes are well not sometimes oftentimes
are narcissists and psychopaths, right who like the attention? Who
Also we saw this with Brian Coburger potentially, who was
(59:36):
you know, checking out the message boards and seeing what
the chatter is online about the killings and just to
kind of either double down on and what is it
operas motor dah.
Speaker 3 (59:48):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
I can never say that straight or they might just
change it up to get the sniff off their trail, right,
So sometimes it's important to hold that information close. But yeah,
we're I'm going to dig in because there's something. There's
something fishy.
Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Another really strange thing really quick is this is like
a really remote area the pond is in a really
remote area of this area, and so it's very strange
that a random serial killer would be out there at
this time. So maybe she was stalked followed is just unusual.
(01:00:25):
I just wanted to point that out real quickly.
Speaker 6 (01:00:26):
Yeah, there's a lot more questions than answers so far,
but we will be staying on it and listen if
you want to join our conversation. We're at eighty eight
three to one crime and we would love to hear
from you. So back for a hot second, Stephanie to
the modus operandi, which I'm saying incorrectly as well. It
is interesting with this whole the question of the Northeast
(01:00:48):
serial killer, because there has been such sort of disparate
even victims, because usually the norm is that it's women
between the ages of X and Y versus just a
range of sexes and ages.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I would like to map it. It would be interesting
to create a board.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
You know, this is sort of our step one typically
internally here at KT is you know, putting a big
board together, right and taking all of the victims and
just the basic facts. In fact, honestly, anyone listening crime crewers,
please like toss us any information you may have in
and around the area, because you know, once you sort
of look at it in front of you. You know,
we've all watched CSI or you know, Law and Order.
(01:01:30):
You see those detectives. Not that we're detectives, but it's
just a way of kind of mapping the very basic
information a picture, age, name, place, you know, manner of death,
and how their body was found and who that body
was found by, and then the next one and locations.
Because sometimes when you do that, you take a look
back and you're like, you really very quickly can connect dots.
Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
You know, all my spreadsheets that I have, Yeah, your spreadsheet.
I have spreadsheets on every case that I follow and
every single spreadsheet that I have, and I have dozens
of them, and my friends will tell you that I'm
crazy about them. My girlfriend actually bought me a this
deserves a spreadsheet shirt of Chase. It's a miner. Every
single case that I follow has a map. I map everything.
(01:02:14):
It's it's really important.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
It's like step one, right, so I would like to
start mapping this one. And you know, listen, we don't
have the answers yet, but just little by little, as
you know, we hear more information, both in the media
and based on our digging and research, and also from
you guys, if you have any details to share from
in and around the main area or New England in general. Listen,
(01:02:36):
there's an uptick, right, So is that just something that's
being put in the press for sensational purposes or is
there some loose ends? And if that's the case, maybe
we can help.
Speaker 10 (01:02:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
I enjoying the conversation, right, Like that helps you join
the conversation. We want this to be kind of like
a place where people can come to have these conversations
like is this really happening.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
We'll strike out sometimes, you know, we're not We're not
trying to interrupt anything. We're not trying to accuse anybody
of murder, obviously, Captain obvious. But you know, look, this
is how it starts. And our listeners are smart man.
Speaker 6 (01:03:08):
Oh absolutely, and listen. Yeah, everything does start with questions.
It is important to note that these are it is speculation.
It's kind of morely held speculation, but it is that.
And law enforcement is not saying the word serial killer.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
You want to say that, And listen, there's this new
case that we want to start unpacking. You may have
seen it a bit in the news about this young teenager,
Sarah Grace Patrick. She's looking at a very real bad situation.
(01:03:46):
Allegedly she took the life of her mother and her
stepdad and kind of what's extra weird about this one,
aside from just that, right is as is going to
be tried as an adult, so more on that to come.
Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
But also she was kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Reaching out to crime shows maybe like Hours, asking for
some crime enthusiasts and influencers and TV shows and blogs
and podcasts and you know, frankly shows like this, although
not ours, to help solve the crime and solve her parents' death,
(01:04:23):
her mother and her stepdad, honestly, and then it turns
out it was her potentially, So that's a twisted one.
And Courtney, you've been following this closely.
Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
Where should we go on this?
Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (01:04:34):
So I think starting with the basics, because that's all
I've really been gathering. And I think this is going
to evolve. I think it's going to evolve quickly. But
I don't know what I'm basing that on except forgot.
Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
I agree, God, yeah, no, I agree. I think the
suspect is young, and I think she's vulnerable. And I
think if she is guilty, they're going to be able
to crack that pretty quickly. And she is very dramatic
on social media. She's making videos crying into the camera,
uh my mommy, you know, I miss my mommy, and
it's all very sad if she's innocent of this. But
(01:05:05):
and she was like filming herself crying and like filming herself,
I'm going to go to the funeral, those kinds of things.
It feels very I need a formative, very performative right now.
I mean in hindsight, But what if she's just like sad,
but it's just sad, right.
Speaker 6 (01:05:21):
So, just the salient facts of it is Sarah Grace Patrick.
She's a teen out of Georgia and her mother forty
one year old Kristen Brock, and her stepfather who is
forty five year old James Brock. They were found shot
to death in their bed and they were found by
the five year old daughter that they share together. That
(01:05:45):
was her mother and father. So the teen, Sarah Grace Patrick, again,
this is her mother and stepfather. So she has been
charged as an adult, as you said, Steph, And she
is seventeen years old now and she's been charged with
two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated assault
for this alleged killing. This happened back in February.
Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
It seems like a really long time. Yeah, So she
was like at this is like just breaking now. She
was like just off for several months and she was
a mourning daughter. It's been five months months. Wow. And
how old was she at the time? Sixteen at the time.
And Steph, just this happened in February. I'm sorry, Courtney,
this happened in February. She was arrested just last week,
(01:06:29):
I think on the eighth. Yeah, so five months and
the police have said they have a mountain of evidence
against her. And it's crazy to me that if they
have this mountain of evidence, why it took five months
to get her arrested. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
And she's saying innocent, innocent, innocent. I don't think we've
heard from her, Yeah, not that I have seen things.
News is coming out pretty quick, but not the last
I look. And after the murders Sarah Grace, she was
posting all of these emotional and kind of cryptic TikTok
videos just mourning her parents. She described her life as
(01:07:13):
a horror movie, and she kept expressing homesickness for wanting
to go home.
Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
I bet so well. She lived. She lived with different
family members too, Like she wasn't a permanent residence at
the home. At the familial home, she was staying with
other family members. And I'm not sure exactly why yet.
I don't think they've we've learned yet, but she there
was apparently something going on, yeah, and not saying but
(01:07:42):
if there is nothing going on, well, I mean, it
does happen. Why its scary to think about ed Kemper.
Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
I mean, you know, this is why I were called right,
it does happen.
Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
We just don't know. But it's just so odd, how
dramatic she was on social media and wanting the attention
and just acting like a grieving daughter that just lost
her mom. And I mean it was video after video
afterr video of just tears and then other videos. This'sort.
Both things might be true. She might have filled her absolutely,
(01:08:19):
and then other videos of her like at the beach
just loving life as soon, you know, as early or
late as like two weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Jerrian, she was at the beach two weeks ago. But look,
we were learning this again, I'm going to give Sarah
Grace Patrick a little grace until proven wrong, which I
you know admit is often. You know, we just learned
this with the Menendez brothers who are now looking to
be freed after decades behind bars because they killed their parents,
total bloodbath. They went straight and partied and bought rolexes
(01:08:50):
or I'm paraphrasing, but they went they got spendy and
like you know, life went on. They bought cars. That
was why they were thrown behind bars, right because it
wasn't a good look. They weren't grieving correctly. You know,
is it plausible that this young lady I'm looking at
a picture of her right now kind of a heartbreaking,
what a beauty and like what a waste you know,
(01:09:11):
lives lost in this horrible manner. My heart goes out
to the five year old that had to stumble in
and catch her parents murdered. That's a stain that will
you know, core memory that's hard to shake for that
she should definitely be there's a talking to you know here,
But like, is it possible that maybe there was something
that was going on in Sarah Grace's.
Speaker 6 (01:09:31):
World worse and something that we I mean there could
not justifying it obviously, oh is we don't know about.
Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
But the other thing too, is that the police, Courtney curtently,
if I'm wrong, police said that there might be other suspects. Yeah,
like a little ring.
Speaker 6 (01:09:49):
They have not ruled out additional suspects or arrest. They
do continue to encourage public tips. So that's exactly right.
So it's tricky. And she also had reached out.
Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Oh go ahead, Stephanie.
Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
No, I was going to say, I'm curious what Gypsy
Rose has to say on this topic for real.
Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
I don't say that in a glib way. You know,
someone who do we really want to hear from her?
Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Well, she's interesting contacts. I feel like we talk a
lot about the Menendez brothers. I'm a little you know,
I want them all. I'm a little concerned by all
of it. But you know, court finish your thought. I
didn't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 6 (01:10:21):
Oh well, first of all, if anyone else wants to
join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime, tell
us what you think about Sarah Grace Patrick. It's it's
kind of been all over the news. What I was
going to say was, in addition to reaching out to
some true crime social media folks and also posting on
her own. She also had a family friend and she
(01:10:45):
had reached out to them an adult, to speak on
her behalf and in this and what she had asked
to say was that she did hear her stepdads. It's
called an ELVAD machine, which is heart machine, kept his
heart pumping. So what Sarah Gray said was that she
did hear the alarm going off throughout the night, but
(01:11:08):
it could have also blends it in with background noise.
Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
So I guess what the theory is there is that
she heard this LVAD going off, meaning I learned about it.
Speaker 5 (01:11:16):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
I don't even know what's grace? Through Gray's Anatomy, by
the way, I learned all about that. It's a machine
that hooks up to your heart keeps a pumping. It
like sits outside your body, but it's hooked into your heart.
And famously, on Gray's Anatomy, they cut this. They cut
it so that this guy could get a transplant. It's
very dramatic. But anyway, I learned about that on Grays
And is it like a mini echo machine? I don't know, Okay,
(01:11:39):
I just know that she had got amazing anyway, are
you a doctor? Are you listen? If you've watched all
the seasons of Gray's Anatomy, I think you qualified that
close enough closely. So this elvad when it gets cut
famously as in the show, I know this because I'm
an expert. Now, it makes a noise because it's no longer.
(01:12:00):
So I guess what she's saying is that she heard
the alarm going off because he was he was passed away, right,
because it's not pumping the heart anymore. It's not working
because there's no pul because he was shot with a rifle.
How did she have this rifle? Let's discuss that. But
also a family did she let her sister, this half
(01:12:21):
sibling or stepsister enter the room to discover these bodies knowingly?
I don't like that. I don't like that. That is so sick.
If that is like a real thing. Wasn't you baby
talking a little bit?
Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
That was kind of a weird like little piece which
is a kind of a dissociative thing.
Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Yeah, I mean kind of. There is a TikTok account
that archived all in her videos and I went and
watched them all, and she was kind of baby talking.
But if if she wasn't accused of this crime, I
don't know that you would think of anything of it, right, right,
right in retrospect, in hindsight, in retrospect, it seems right,
is right? Right?
Speaker 6 (01:12:56):
You know, one of them, it was a This one
kind of struck me. It was a video collage and
it was of her mother and stepfather. Oh yes, okay,
and this happened.
Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
I guess what.
Speaker 6 (01:13:07):
It's on March first, so I guess about nineteen days
before they weren't murdered. And what Sarah Grace wrote was
they don't know it, but a year from now me
and my five year old sister would find them wrongfully
shot dead in our home and won't get to watch
me graduate high school. So me walk down the aisle
and couldn't even say goodbye?
Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
Wait what I'd like to?
Speaker 8 (01:13:28):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Wait?
Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
I don't get that she posted a video prior to
the murders of them.
Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
No, she posted after them before, saying if only they
knew then that a year from now.
Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Yeah, it's a trend. I hate Instagram trends. It's so annoying.
I find that A pinon that trend is.
Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
This, Oh just when people they're like, they show a
photo of themselves and they're like, little does she know
talking to themselves like this time next year, they're going
to be like in a very difficult situation that they're yeah,
you like it. I hate it? No, No, no, I
don't like it. I don't know.
Speaker 6 (01:14:03):
I hate talking about but yes I don't.
Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
I'd like to know what evidence they have, and I'd
like to know also why they're not, you know, saying
she's the only suspect. I would really like to know.
And was there any materials stolen? You know? Is is there?
Haven't drugs involved? Are they trying to like gather some
casual mom and dad? Mom and dad were like really
upstanding members of the community. They were very active in
(01:14:28):
their truthing. No, the dad had posted a picture of
his little girl on social media less than twenty four
hours before he was gunned down, saying like she's the
light of my world, and it's all there. She was
jealous of all this love. If she wasn't living in
the home with her mother, and I don't know if
she was living there when it happened, but she was
in and out of the familiar home with state of
(01:14:49):
their family members. I don't have clarity on that as well.
Speaker 6 (01:14:52):
That hasn't been clear the quote mountain of evidence that
the police say they have that also is not clear.
An left any drugs, So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Well, she'll be rain soon. Hopefully she'll be a rain soon.
Maybe we'll get some of that information. Maybe we'll get
to see disaster scary.
Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Listen, we have a lot going on this week in general,
so we'll be following up on the cases that are
unfolding real time and breaking news, but also we're going
to do a little bit of a deep dive into
Gilane Maxwell herself, the right hand woman in the Epstein
and also the Hillside notorious Hillside strangler or killer. Right,
this is a serial killer that is pretty infamous and
(01:15:30):
is definitely, you know, a little bit back in the
press again, so we're going to do a big unpack
on that as well. And although I'm a little afraid
we're going to start digging into this Abercrombie in Fitch situation,
that's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
We're going to leave it at that. There's a little
bit of.
Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Crossover parallel universes things that are happening. Maybe in the
Epstein case might in a parallel Hideous World also be happening,
and yet another very big, high profile case. So more
on that to come, but we have a quick talkback.
Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Hi there.
Speaker 5 (01:16:02):
I just wanted to see if you guys could talk
a little bit about the Shannon Price Gary Coleman stuff
that's kind of been renewed with the new show that's
come out from Annie about her lie detector test and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Seems like that was kind of a botched investigation.
Speaker 5 (01:16:19):
I'd love to get your take on it.
Speaker 6 (01:16:20):
Yes, seems like that was kind of a bad idea
to go on that TV show.
Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Hi, we do that. I love this question. We will
dig into this too. We have to know about it.
I don't even know what you guys are talking about.
Tell me, tell me what's going on.
Speaker 6 (01:16:34):
I know almost nothing, and I think we all love
this talk back, And honestly, guys, let's put this on
the show tomorrow, because yeah, all I know is Gary
Coleman's wife, although it seems it was his ex wife
who and this was a question that came up when
he was on life support and she had the do
not resuscitate order. I hope I'm not watching all this information.
(01:16:57):
I don't think I am though, but she basically said, Okay,
he's lived enough and it's time to let him rest.
But apparently she did not have the right to do
that because they were in fact divorced. But she has
since gone on a lie detective test on A and E.
Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
It's on A and E.
Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
We can call, Yeah, shout out to Shelley Tetro and
Elaine Fontane Bryant.
Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
We can.
Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
I'll reach out to them and see if they can
give us some insider scoop from A and E. But yeah,
the lie detective test, my understanding is it didn't go great.
And you know, there's been speculation that Gary Coleman was
killed
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