December 8, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Bayo Curry-Winchell on Postpartum Scares, AI, Bias, Finding Doctors Who Truly Care + More
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's this way up with Angela Yee And it's that time.
We got some really important things to discuss. Coach Jesse
is here with me, of course, and we're talking about
something that affects so many of us. And this is
a topic that Coach Jesse is always bringing to the forefront.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And so am I on way.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Up because this affects a lot of black women in particular,
and that is what happens when doctors don't listen. Now,
we do have somebody here who has been on it
and on it in the medical world. Her TikTok about
patient dismissal went viral. We're going to talk about ww's
and all of that, right and yes, and one point
(00:41):
nine million views you got and then eight hundred and
two thousand on Instagram as a real you're a Board
Certify family physician, a health equity advocate, and the founder
of Clinicians Who Care. Doctor Bio Curry Minchelle is here,
Doctor Bio, welcome to weigh Up.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me. I'm just excited to us
to be here in this room. Like the energy.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I'm all in listen, I love your energy.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And just for backstory on her way here, she had
a journey, but she made it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I sure did, and I stayed positive. But yes, my
uber driver got into an accident, you know, but I
hustle it got out and I had some exercise this morning.
So that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I came in here and looking like nothing happened. But yes,
so we're glad to have you here. And of course,
Coach Jesse is the person who brought you to the
forefront from me, and you're gonna you're gonna be talking
with us and educating all of us and keeping us
all accountable, because that's what Coach Jesse does for me.
You know, she is the founder of the detax now
dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Coach Jesse.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yes, ma'am, welcome back, Thank you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I love you too.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Now, doctor Baya, before we get into the solutions that
you've come up with, because I feel like it's one
thing to talk about problems, but it's another thing when
you actually find how do we solve these issues? Because
we've been talking about a lot of the problems that
we have when it comes to our health, right, and
so I want people to understand what your story is.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You live this not.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Just as a doctor, but also as a patient, so
talk to us about what was happening with you and
how doctors kept brushing you off.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So the work that I do in this advocacy space
exactly what you said, Angela. People talk about it, but
what is the action behind it? And although I've been
in this space for a long time, it wasn't until
I nearly became a statistic that we hear about all
the time, which is black women are three times more
likely to die during childbirth or shortly thereafter than our
(02:35):
white counterpart. Well, I had just delivered my second baby
and I came out of the c section, and it
was about thirty minutes. I knew I didn't feel right,
and I knew it because I was having a hard
time concentrating, I was having a hard time talking, and
I just felt this level of fatigue that I had
not felt two years prior with my first baby. So
(02:58):
as I sat with that, I finally said I called
my nurse and I said, something isn't right and she said,
you look fine, bio, everything looks normal. This is how
you're supposed to feel. So I sat with that for
a little bit longer and I started to get worse.
So I reached out to her again, and she said,
this is completely normal. You are experiencing everything that you
(03:21):
should and as she I'll never forget. As she exited
that as she exited the room, it started to get worse.
I started to feel a pain that I'd never felt
in my life. And so I asked my husband to
call my doctor, and I was luckily to have the
privilege of having his number thank you in my phone,
(03:41):
and so he called and said, something's wrong with bio.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
My doctor came over and he knew something wasn't right.
I at that point, I could barely articulate what was happening.
Next thing I know, I go to the I'm sent
to the or. I found that I'm bleeding internally, I'm
transfusingmultiple units of blood. It was hospitalized for weeks and
so in that moment, I nearly lost my life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And so and knowing something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I knew something was wrong. And so this work that
I do is not only just a part of this like,
it's personal. I want to help as many people as
I can, and especially women and black women be able
to have that voice because I know what it's like
and I nearly became that statistic. So if I can
(04:31):
share my story and hopes that that's statistic that you hear,
you can have an image behind it, because this is
a hospital that I work as a physician and a
medical director, so the staff knew me for years, but
it didn't matter right.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And imagine was somebody who was having their first baby
and someone's just telling you this is you're feeling everything
that you're supposed to feel, and you're like, okay, maybe
this is normal. Let me just right because you don't
have a point of right, you don't have a point
of reference. And then you're also, you know, a medical professional,
and some people don't know how to advocate for themselves
at a time like that because we feel like if
(05:09):
our doctor is telling us something that's just what it is,
let me just you know, bear through it exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And how many at that moment, I thought, especially during
the recovery, how many women who sit through this because
there is a power dynamic that exists between doctors and patients,
meaning the doctor is supposed to be the know all
that knows all the information and the patient. You're in there,
you're vulnerable, you don't feel well, and you're in a
(05:36):
state of where you're just waiting to get the information
to how can I feel better? And that shouldn't be
the case. And that's my love and passion is to
flip it where you it is your body, your decision,
and that doctor should share with you what things are
happening so you can have those answers. But it is
it's a vulnerable state to be in when you don't
(05:57):
feel well.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yeah, I was just sharing with you doctor Bio, how
you know. When I had the brain aneurysm, I was
in a very similar position where I went because I
had the worst headache of my life, and thank God
for a good doctor who told me to go. My
nephrologists said, hey, you are a higher risk for a
brain aneurysm because of the kidney disease and sent me
(06:20):
for testing they can actually test showed I had a
significant brain aneurysm. And then the doctor after the neurosurgeon
says to me, you do you have a significant brain aneurysm.
And my pain level is through the roof. It's like
level twenty pain and that, as you know, that can
(06:40):
escalate your blood pressure. Like so my blood pressure was
that in a one ninety nine. Okay, that's crazy. That's
a stroke level right, and stroke level and you have
an aneurysm. Okay, And the doctor says to me, perfect,
I can fit you into my calendar in eight days,
go home and come back. And like I was telling
(07:02):
doctor Bio was like, if I was not an advocate,
I would have just said okay, because I would have
believed the doctor right. But I said, I knew right
who I said. If I go home like this, this
is going to rupture the aneurism and I'll have no
help and I will die at home.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, thank goodness.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
You know, you know it's crazy. But how many women
went home? And that's when you say, you literally feel
your life slipping away and you're fighting for it in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You know, well, and I always like to talk about
you can be the most educated world traveler, all the things,
but when you walk into that exam room, all of
a sudden, all of that vanishes, yep. And you may
have had an agenda when you went in there of
what you want to say, but all of a sudden,
when this, when a doctor comes in, it's hard to
articulate it. It's hard to get it out. And then
(07:51):
if you are met with where it's like, well, you
look fine, your labs look fine, or you're just stressed.
That can all of a sudden diminish your concerns where
you start to doubt yourself and start to play a
different narrative of how you really feel because you know
you don't feel right.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, you hush the warning signs, correct, you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Know, doctor Bayo, You've also kind of pulled back the
curtain on what goes on in medical training which the
average person wouldn't know. And so I want you to
talk about that a little bit because this was fascinating
for me to hear about, but also something that can
kind of give some insight onto why sometimes we may
be treated like this.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
So you saw me smile because it is such a
joy to be able to lift that curtain and give
people the information I know as a doctor, because if
you can go in there knowing what that doctor knows,
so you can get the care that you should have.
Always that I feel for me is what medicine and
healthcare should be about. So an example, I talk about
(08:51):
the three c's, being clear, concise, and confident. How given
an example of that, if you are not feeling well
and you go to the doctor, like I just haven't
been feeling well for a couple of days. That doctor
can interpret it in many ways. They can say, Oh,
you're just anxious, or maybe you just need to sleep more,
or maybe you just need to kind of reduce your stress,
versus I've been having stomach pain for three days, I
(09:15):
can't eat, I'm not just all the time, and it's
impacting my quality of life. All of a sudden, you
are being clear, you're being concise, and you are being confident.
And I can tell you when you say it in
that way, a doctor who will have a running list,
Meaning there's a term called differential diagnosis. So based on
the symptoms that you present, that doctor will think of
(09:36):
three to four things that your symptoms could be associated with.
So that example I gave with stomach pain, the doctor's
going to think it could be constipation, it could be gallbladders,
it could be stressed. But if you give it in
the way that I said, all of a sudden, it's like, oh,
maybe we need to check for cancer. Maybe we need
to check for this. So my goal is to in
(09:57):
every area of health care, I'm going to give you
that language. I'll give you exactly what to say to
get to the next step, so that doctor is like, oh, no,
we need to check this. And then also I go
a little bit further. If you are in front of
a doctor and they tell you your labs look fine, everything
looks normal, this is what I recommend you say. I
(10:19):
understand that you that my labs are normal, but I'm curious.
I'm still not feeling well, So what are the next
steps to identify why I'm feeling like this? And using
the words curious or help me understand is an important
piece because I understand that not everyone feels comfortable. We
hear about advocating for yourself and standing up, yes, but
(10:42):
it can be hard. So if I can give you
the language that is non confrontational, that puts it to
the doctor in respect to you know, tell me your
decision making, help me understand your decision making, it helps
kind of equal the playing ground.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Keep that sat right.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's a partnership versus why did you do this? Why
are you doing this to me? Instead I'm curious behind
your thinking, I'm curious behind the decision making. It changes
that narrative.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No, I like when I'm at the doctor and they
explain like over, I tell them that too. I'm like,
I really like for you to over explain everything to me.
And I'm always curious, like you said, to know like
all of the details. Don't just be like you're fine,
but like, oh, this is what this is, this is
your you know, and just so that I can feel
more comfortable in knowing it. And like Coach Jesse would
be like, well, what are your numbers do you have?
(11:34):
She's like, can you screenshot that?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Is sen it to me?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes, you know, it's really helpful and even you know
with my patients, like let's say, if I have a
patient that I need to send to a specialist, I
will tell her to ask the doctor, Okay, if they're
going to order labs, if my labs are abnormal, what
is the plan? If my labs are normal, what is
the plan? Because how many of us have waited for
(11:58):
results and you're just like.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
What's doing idea?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
What's it mean?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You can go in there exactly saying okay, what's what's
the plan, And then it gives you agency to find
out is this doctor on the same playing field as me?
Because if they're thinking we're not going to do anything
if these labs are normal, you know, in advance, it's true,
and that way you can decide do I stay with
this doctor or do I go a different route.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Another thing that I learned on a build on the
differentials diagnosis was really important, which was you know, to ask,
what are your differential diagnosis for what I'm dealing with?
But then also when they list them out, it's like,
so what evidence do you have? Like that's ruling those
other things out right, because when you ask that important question,
(12:42):
then they actually have to run tests that they they
could have skipped. Right. So, for instance, I had I
shared the story how I have polycist to kidney disease.
I've I've shared this numerous time, and it's a genetic
kidney disease where their cysts all over and I had
a pain right here, which I thought it was a
(13:03):
ruptured cyst, right, but given all the surgical history I have,
I said, you know, I cannot assume. So I went
to the er and they said, okay. First they did
a CT scam to make sure it wasn't an obstruction
because I've had numerous obstructions in you know, abdominal obstructions
from small valbstructions. They ruled that out and they also
did a d diimer test to make sure it wasn't
(13:25):
a blood clot right, because again they're looking at what
it can be. And I said, all right, so what's
what is the evidence that rules that out? So then
they did a test I think the next one. They
ran labs made sure that there was an enzyme that
they tested for. Right. Once all of those came back negative,
the result was, okay, it must be a ruptured cyst.
(13:47):
So then I came back to my nephrologist and he said, okay,
if it is a ruptured cyst, the pain will dissipate
in one to two weeks. So I tracked that and
then it was gone. So we knew that's what it was.
But in cases where you know, we've spoken about my cousin.
In fact, my cousin died of colon cancer a year
ago and he had back pain. That back pain, thirty five, young, healthy,
(14:15):
never sick, but his dad died of pancreatic cancer. Right,
So when he had back pain, the doctor initially said, oh,
it must be like from gardening, you pulled something. I said, okay,
I can figure that in a week or two. You're
talking about months later and no imaging was done until May.
So if he would have said, hey, how do we
(14:37):
know that it's just that? You know, like, what tests
will you run to show and prove that it's not?
What are the other And I felt so like, wow,
we really don't have that language. So thank you so
much for sharing that, because it is important to know
that they have to rule out the worst cases first.
That is what you want the doctors to do. What's
the worst, what's the monster. Let's look at what the
(14:59):
monster is. Let's prove that it's not that monster before
we start taking, you know, to my life.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
It's literally on the line.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It is it really is. It is your life. And
first I just want to say I'm sorry for your loss.
And it makes me think. So I had a patient
five months ago. I'll just call her Maria, and she
had been to three doctors before I saw her, and
she had been dealing with stomach pain. She was a
little nauseous, and she was like, nothing really makes it better,
but I do know when I eat, even if I'm
(15:27):
just trying to do crackers or ginger ale, it makes
it worse. Well, she had been told that she was constipated,
then she was told that it was just like an
irritable bowel syndrome, and then that she was stressed. So
by the time I saw her, I said, well, do
you have any family history of any cancer? And she
was like, well, my mom had breast cancer, but nothing else.
(15:47):
And so as I'm examining her, I said, have you
ever had a kolonoscopy? She's twenty eight years old, and
she was like, no, no one has ever said anything.
I was like, We're going to do a colonoscopy. She
was diagnosed. I diagnosed her with colon cancer. And that's
the thing like having a doctor not only to share
all those differential diagnoses dig a little bit deeper, but
(16:10):
if they don't, having the language of help me understand,
what else could it be? And you have the right
to know all of the options available, and then you
choose with which path you would like to go.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Speaking affective bio, you've gotten like millions of views on TikTok,
just kind of explaining your own experience. Why do you
think that hits so hard for people?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I believe it hits hard because I represent what a
lot of us are going through. And for me, as
a doctor, I dance to my own beat. I'm not traditional.
I am a doctor who will hug you in my
exam room. I will spend extra time, and yes I
do get in trouble, but I don't care and I've
(16:51):
always when I do, and when you see me online,
I am authentic to the core. I am someone who
will share all the things I share, even my mishaps,
the things that you know, things that I wish I
could have done better, And I think it resonates with people.
And I take great pride in what I put online
(17:14):
because for me, it's not just about content. It is
about serving the people who have taken the time to
listen to my information. And I take it very seriously
because for me, it's like each person is in that
exam room with me. So whatever I put out there,
I want to make sure you have the best information possible.
(17:35):
So wherever your circumstances are, wherever you live, you can
advocate and you can stand alone for yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What do you think about people using like AI and
TEDGBT to diagnose themselves, because I know nowadays a lot
of people are like, well, let me just put it
in here and ask and see what's wrong with me.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Let me put my symptoms in here. What would you say.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think it's a great starting point. You just have
to make sure that you don't put any personal information.
And the other thing is whatever information you get, have
it followed up with the doctor, because we can't forget
that AI is just perpetuating the inequities and the racial
disparities that I've already seen that. So I've had patients
who have put in certain symptoms and because of what
(18:20):
is built in our system as far as not always
including people of color with certain diseases. A great example,
I had a lady who came in. She was having
She noticed her gait, her walking had changed a little bit,
as well as our handwriting, and so it was very small.
She's one that does very beautiful cursive. She put it
into AI and it said, oh, you're just it's because
(18:42):
of your your age. You're getting older. She's fifty six
years old, so as I'm when she came in, right right,
But you know, the interesting part was, and it is young.
It is very young. I know some of the age
bias and all the things that are in there. I'm like,
I'm like, and so as we're talking, I've fast forward.
(19:06):
She I diagnosed her with Parkinson's and you know she's
a black woman, and think about what you see when
you think of Parkinson's do you see someone that looks
like us?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
No, And so AI will perpetuate some of those things
because it hasn't been built that narrative that that look.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
The reference given that lens right. But you know what
I have found to be helpful is actually when you
give it directions specifically for those inequities though, but you
don't know to look for it, Like you have to say, well,
what is the research specifically on that? So then it
has to go looking and digging for it, and when
it does dig for it, so you can't just be
(19:44):
general like you need to. It's like operating understanding there
are inequities in the system and because of that, filtering
based on that I mean. But definitely a first step
in helping you with your research, even as you go
and you work with your physician who cares.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yes, absolutely, And you know the other thing is women
we haven't been studied. I always like to tell people
the number I give it. This is a great example.
Women's health has been studied as long as Netflix has
been around thirty years, which is all the.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Research that's been has not included women, and that's why
we need to be in these positions to make sure
that research is getting done.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That's why we have all the issues.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Because they never factor us in right correct, and that's
why some medications are good. Another example, two years ago,
there was a woman who had fallen asleep at the
wheel and she got pulled over. She had taken the
medication ambient. Well, we found out that ambient you can't
give a woman ten milligrams the regular dose. But it
hadn't been studied in women, had only been studied in men,
and we should be.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Period.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Oh okay, yeah, took it, so it was it was
still in our system. And so now it's recommended a
lesser dose.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
So that's that's actually crazy. So after the whole brand
aneurysm thing, I developed terrible because it was also connected
to hyperparathyroidism. I'm telling you this medical speech. Right, hyperca
hyper calcemia was found which caused terrible, terrible It was
driven by vitamin D de efficiency as well. Right, was
(21:17):
very severe. I didn't know this at the time, and
guess what. It took like a year to get me regulated.
So I was dealing with insomnia where nothing helped, Like
the only thing that worked was ambient. Right. So I'm
talking to now a sleep specialist who's saying to me,
I said, well, you know I'm down, things are getting better.
I'm down to like a quarter of a pill, right
(21:38):
because the pill is ten milligrams. And he's like, that's
not that's not working. I'm like, no, I'm telling you
it actually works. Going back to a physician who doesn't
they're like, this is crazy. She doesn't know. I know
that I'm actually doing it. So if you're down to
a quarter, then that's not even giving you an effect. Yeah, no,
it's working. So that's like if you don't have someone
(21:58):
number one, as a woman, it affected my body different.
And then as someone who's got the issues I have,
I could even use even much less by that point, right,
because I couldn't drive if I even took half a pill,
which is five miligrams, I couldn't drive.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
And that clinician is going off of data when he's
telling you that, oh, that little amount won't work. He's
going off of what has been studied in men, not women.
So that you know, kind of the ongoing disparity or
incorrect information happens in exam rooms every day because we
haven't been studied well.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Doctor value that brings us to clinicians who care.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I want to get right into that because you created
this space, so talk to us about what is clinicians
who care.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
So over ninety percent of Americans have shared that they
have been dismissed or gas lit when they see care
and that means being told that you're fine, everything is okay. Well, recently,
I shared another story of dismissal that happened to me
during my third year of medical school in Chicago. I
noticed that I started losing my hair, I was dealing
with joint pain, and my hands and my feet were
(23:03):
swollen every morning, didn't matter what I did, and so
I went to the doctor and I was told, well,
do you think you're pregnant. I was like, no, I don't.
That's pregnant. That's what happened. It's in my record. And
then I was told, well, this is normal because you're
in medical school and you are just stressed out. So
after going to six doctors, I finally found one doctor
(23:27):
to listen and believe me, and I ultimately ended up
with the diagnosis of lupus and I have a clotting
disorder as well well. I shared that story online. I
had never shared that, even though I share a lot,
and when I did, it blew up because people were
sharing the names. They were sharing their dismissal, but they
were also sharing the name of a doctor who had listened, cared,
(23:48):
and believed them. I'll never forget one lady wrote in
all caps, it took forty two years to get a
diagnosis of ADHD. And then I thought to myself, Oh,
I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to
create a list that connects people with doctors who've been
shown to listen, care and believe their patients. Because if
you can find a doctor from the jump that will
(24:09):
just listen to you and believe you, it can help
set you on the right path. So created my team,
a small little team. We created a Google form and
we put city and state and now we have country
and I'll get to that. And then we made it.
We put every single specialty, so we have obi, GIND,
we have orthopedic cardiology, midwives, pharmacists, GI all of it,
(24:32):
and you write in how that doctor made you feel.
It is a patient recommended list. It is organic. I
started it just a few months ago and.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Are putting themselves on there now.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
They could be, but we have vetted, you know, we'vet
and we can see and you can see the difference
when a patient shares it. But it could happen. But
the cool thing is because you've never seen anything else
like that. Where I use in the best example is
how many of us have called a girlfriend or friend
(25:03):
and said, do you know a name of a doctor
that you can try.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I had someone on here the other day, a couple
Akisha Colonna Willie Cologne, and she had at yes, she
had several miscarriages before finally fortunately having a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
She had nine right, eight?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Okay, well, she had several miscarriages and then finally was
able to go see a doctor she talks about in
her book that was listening to her. She felt heard
and she ended up having a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Followed by another one.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And so it really was about the doctor that came
through for her and that helped her and was like
all you need is one egg. You know, she had
other doctors that was telling her, well, you're going to
have to get a donor egg.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
You know, you're going to have to do this, and you.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Know, she didn't want to do she didn't want to
go that route, and so finally she found the right doctor.
But just to think about, like how many women are
going through that and they just don't have their and
they're getting these suggestions of what they should be doing
or being told well, that's not going to happen for
you, you need to do X, Y and Z. And then
it ended up happening because she went to the right doctor.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It can make a huge difference. Just three weeks ago,
I received a DM and a woman said that she
had been dismissed for several years. She found an ob
gine on the list and unfortunately was diagnosed with a
varying cancer. But in the message, she said, thank you
because I found a doctor that took all of my
symptoms seriously, Like that's a message. And then I had
(26:35):
a mom who reached out from Connecticut and said, I
have a newer divergent child and I have been looking
for a pediatrician who will take my child and their
journey seriously. And it touches my heart because she said
I found someone on your list. I saw them and
we have a plan. It's like that's healthcare.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Angela.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yes, and that it touches my heart because there's a
lot our system is fractured. We know that. But if
we can have something that will help us get to
the right care sooner rather than later, that's huge.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
No, it's phenomenal. Let me tell you. I because of
I was telling you in the room, because of the
complications from the fibroids surgers. Remember I told you this
Angela was like the complications I deal with the lifelong chronicle.
They're not from the fibroids, They're from the surgeries. They're
from the complications from the surgeries. And because of that,
I have a long life chronic disease called short bowel syndrome,
(27:37):
and it literally affects me every day. Every single day.
Life is different because of it. Okay, and finding a
gastroin terrologist that actually believed me was everything. Before I
actually found someone, I found so many gastros who were
like basically blowing me off, trying to put me on
(27:57):
you know, blockers and all these things that would not
work for me and were harmful to my kidneys and
all these other things. So I was like, you know what,
I added doctor Solomon David to your list last night, so.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Queen's New York.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
He's in there, and I was like, because you need
we need doctors who care.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
It's already hard going to the doctor. I just want
to say that it is like you need to go.
A lot of people will avoid, you know, and it
does take time out of you know, and sometimes we
just also are like I feel, okay, I'm not going
to go.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Into something's wrong, but if you have because of fear, yeah,
that is fear.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And it is also because now if you had a
clinician who you felt like they care about me, I'd like,
let me go talk to as an experience, is something's wrong.
I feel comfortable that they're going to listen to what
it is that I have to say and that they're
going to make sure I know what I need to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Like that's important. You know, it's a relief when you.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Leave, right, it's huge. It gives you that extra step
because how many people have just decided I'm not going
to go exactly what you mentioned because it's going to
be a waste of time, or are going to be
set are told things that aren't really helpful at all,
like oh, just go exercise, or you just need to
lose weight. I've had a lot of patients who have
reached out to me on Instagram and they'll say, I've
(29:08):
been told for the fifth time that all of my
symptoms are due to my weight, and I know it isn't.
I need to find someone who will listen, and then
they find someone on the list and they finally have
those answers. So if you can go into your doctor's
appointment not only feeling like, Okay, I'm going to have
the chance to get forward what's been happening in my
(29:28):
life and listened to, that's huge.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
And I think the other thing is that many people
are not diagnosed until things are too late because they
feel afraid of corect to the doctor. And because of that,
there are a lot of disparities that are you know,
high levels in terms of cases of cancer being diagnosed
much later. Fibroids. We see it all the time in
fireboords because women are being told hysterect me is their
(29:54):
only option, or because they're being told that they're pain,
they're heavy bleeding. All of that is normal. So instead
of saying no, let's see what it is, Oh wait
a minute, let's look at your D three levels. Because
science has shown us that that's a major driver as
to you know, fibroids, and no, they're not being given
that care. And because of that, it becomes words and
(30:14):
we're disproportionate. Our numbers are disproportionate because of it.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Absolutely, when you think of heart disease, kidney disease, there's
something else that I've been advocating for when it comes
to blood pressure. This I don't know if you guys, yes,
I saw you what I've been for fifteen years, right
classes and so anyone listening right now, if you are
on blood pressure, I guarantee you're probably if you are black,
(30:39):
you're on either a calcium channel blocker or thigh side.
Those are two classes pressure. We may not think of
hydro hydrochlorothiazide or a calcium channel blocker like metoprolol. And
so of what what has been recommended is if you
are black and you have high blood pressure, you are
(31:01):
the recommendation is that you should have one of two
of these classes of high blood pressure medication just based
on the color of your skin. Well, that has been
debunked and it shouldn't be happening, but it's still happening
every day. Our organs are the same. And also let's
just take a step back, let's talk about other options
as well, not just medication. Oh and so that part
(31:22):
is huge, and so I share with people. If a
doctor says, oh, I'm going to put you on this
high blood pressure medication, ask why did you choose this medication?
Help me understand what your decision behind this, because if
you hear and these are my red flags that I
call it the implicit red flags because you're black, because
you're of your weight, because of your age, that doctor
(31:44):
may not be the right doctor for you because they
are not taking to as an individual individual. And that's
the way medicine should be. It should be personalized.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
And you've also talked about how sometimes people are grouped
by you know, WWT please go Can you break that for.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Us and a ww according to them, yes, and I
am I'm probably as well.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
And I think that girl, we got we got the club.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And I think that's.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Because being a patient and a doctor, but sharing like
my journey with lupus, which is an autoimmune, all of
our conditions and so in medical school and it's still happening,
I remember hearing the term ww and a lot of
other doctors have talked about it, and it's considered to
be it's called whiny women, and it is associated with
multiple conditions, meaning you are just anxious, you're nervous, all
(32:33):
the things other than an actual condition. And the other
term is tw train wreck. So imagine if you have
an autoimmune disease, God forbid, you have another condition like
high blood pressure or something else, and you go into
the doctor and you need help. Well, your doctor may
write tw as like a train wreck, or may say
(32:54):
that to the medical students or residents, and it's a
label that prevents you from being able to get the care.
As far as what could that differential diagnosis be, what
could that running list be? Instead of this association and label,
I'm going to give you another one that I did
a video about as well, the four FS, and this
one is still live today. So fat, fertile, forty female
(33:18):
in medical school, PA school, nurse practitioner school. If you
fit those four categories, meaning you are forty years old,
you are considered overweight your female, you the diagnoses would
be a gallbladder issue. So if you come in you've
had stomach pain, you're forty your female, and you are
overweight The first thing I'm going to think of is
(33:39):
maybe you have a gall bladder issue versus anything else.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
And that's a sow many other f's.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
It could be, It could be so many different things
put the fight, but that those associations instead of saying, okay,
let's go through the symptoms that my patient is sharing
with me, Let's find out all of the things that
it could be.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
That bias is going to get them to miss what's
really happening exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
And that goes into why we have the disparities.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That we have.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
You know, this makes me think about what I shared
with you about the four my three laws for exceptional
patient care. This is and this happened, you know. I
came up with it after my whole brain aneurysm thing, Angela,
and it was that, you know, if we will just
listen to what our bay. I say, listen to your bay,
which is your body, your advocates and your experts, right
(34:34):
listening to your body. Because Number one is pain is
a warning sign. It doesn't matter if you have pain,
that is your body telling you something is wrong and
you should not and not dismiss it, and not ignore
it and speak to a doctor until you find the
right one that is actually helping you address what is
causing it. That's number one, right, So that means if
(34:57):
they're not listening, you need another doctor. Don't don't let
somebody just send you home, and it's never as resolved
because pain is a warning sign if you don't listen
to what I said. But if you don't listen to
the whisper, it's going to become a scream. A whisper
can be elevated blood pressure, where the scream is a
heart attack, right A. And so that was body A
(35:18):
is advocates. Medical bias is real. We have literally broken
that down. So we need you need not as you
just should, but you need an advocate in the room
with you, whether it's on the phone, on FaceTime, physically
with you because as she talked about, how you can
be vulnerable when you're in pain and you're dealing, there's
so many things we miss because we're vulnerable. So you know,
(35:41):
have people with you who either on the phone, someone
with you who can ask questions who you may not
be hearing, because medical it's really real, right. And then
the last one is the experts, And this is really
important when you go into the physician's office. There are
two experts in the room at all times. There is
(36:02):
the physician who is the expert in there, whatever specialty is,
and there's you who you're the expert on yourself. Right.
So if you are dealing with a doctor who dismisses
your expertise, because the truth is you are you are
the biggest clue and and source of information to finding
out what's really wrong. Right, So if they are not
(36:25):
validating and listening to your expertise, they're not the right doctor,
period period. And I go all clinicians who care because
I vote with my feet. I go to doctors who
care right well.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
And I like to paint the picture of you are
at the doctor and your doctor is dismissing you. You
know that you're being gasolet and to your point, sticking
with this is happening. So I tell my patients, I'm like,
do not doubt yourself, because when you are experiencing that
and you are feeling it, it is real. And then
the second thing is leading with that careosity language because
(37:01):
you need to find out where is that doctor. Is
that doctor going to be able to meet you where
you are or do they are they not? And then
the third thing that people don't talk about is you
can ask for a different doctor. You can fire that doctor.
If you are in the situation like we know the
viral videos that have been happening that we've seen with
the three women, you can ask for a different nurse.
(37:23):
You can ask for someone else. And the fourth thing
that you can do, and this depends upon your situation,
but you can be transferred to another hospital. And a
lot of times people don't know that that if you
are not getting the care you need, you can be transferred.
And then the fifth thing is in that moment, if
all things aren't working for you and you know that
(37:43):
you're not getting the care that you need, I say record,
I say, you know, making sure whatever you need to
do to have a witness with you in that room
is huge, and not everybody can bring someone, but if
you can record, and sometimes just saying that, all of
a sudden, they let me get a point. And then
the last one that I talk about that I think
(38:04):
people often don't realize is you can say, can you
document in my chart that you have decided not to
give me this care? Can you document that you've decided
that we do not need the extra steps. Now I
give that ladder because it helps you kind of give
a framework for what you can do in the beginning
as you work your way down. But everyone's, you know,
situation is different, but this at least gives you a plan.
(38:27):
The other thing that can be helpful is a medical playbook,
and I love this. I have one for myself, and
it allows you to track your symptoms. It allows you
to track what doctors have said certain things to you.
And that way when you see a doctor and they're like, well,
we're going to do this test, and you can show, oh,
I've already checked my blood count, I've already done this.
(38:48):
What is next?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And so I have that free I have a free
because my whole point is like, let me give you everything,
so you can go on my side. You can see
if it's a free medical playbook. And the other thing
that's important I got a lot is before your doctor's appointment,
I want you to write down your top three concerns
and so you're going to start with those. And because
most doctor's appointments, you've got about fifteen minutes with that doctor,
(39:12):
and before you go in, you're going to practice with
those three c's of what you want to say, and
so when you go in, you're prepared to start with
those top three so you.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Don't feel rushed to get out rush. The doctor's got to.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Go right, and you start with I know we've got
about fifteen minutes, but these are the top three pressing
issues that I'd like to talk about, and then you
lead with what is the next plan? So that's what
you do in that fifteen minutes because realistically, that's what
most people are facing when they see their doctor.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
You know, doctor Baya, you are definitely a clinician who cares.
I can tell just by this platform that you've created,
but also how passionate you are when you talk about everything.
So I can't even imagine, you know, just the help
that you've given to people. And I know that's your
mission and we can feel it in this room. I
appreciate you and thank you because I know you have
(40:03):
a lot going on, but the fact that you took
time to come out here to talk to our audience
on this platform does mean a lot to us as well.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Thank you for having me and I it is like
the warmth that I feel in this room. It's fantastic,
and I will let me know if it I can
help in any further, I'm like, this is my love
and passion just to share health as widely as possible,
because we all consume information differently. And for the doctors
who are still you know, of course give that care
(40:33):
in the room, but people are hungry for more information.
And for me, if I can help you online, if
I can help you through any sort of medium where
you get that information in a free format, that fills
my soul. And I tell my medical students and residence,
I'm like, it is such a gift to be a
(40:53):
part of people's most intimate lives and you need to
cherish that. And that's what I think of every time
I walk in into a patient's room, like what can
I help them with? What can I serve them with?
And I think that is another thing that we need
to embed into our culture because healthcare has lost that
narrative and that's where that heartbeat is supposed to be
(41:16):
when it comes to delivering care. So thank you for
having me here, thank you for the opportunity to reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I am grateful, and please add your if you have
an amazing experience, please care dot com that profession do
you have a book coming out to.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I DO, and so the book will be live January
twenty twenty seven. The working title is how to Talk
to Your Doctor all of it. All of it, and
the wonderful part that I'm very excited about is as
a family medicine doctor, I work in all areas of health.
So this can help you whether you're you know, emergency room,
(41:54):
whether you are going for surgery, any part, and it
can help you stand up for yourself in those moments.
But also if you're a caregiver, because a lot of
us eighty percent of women are the caregiver, and it
will help you have the language to advocate not only
for your loved one, but for yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Oka phenomenal, perfect well, thank you so much. We appreciate
you for coming through this.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
You're saving lives.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Thank you, Thank you for having me
What's this way up with Angela Yee And it's that time.
We got some really important things to discuss. Coach Jesse
is here with me, of course, and we're talking about
something that affects so many of us. And this is
a topic that Coach Jesse is always bringing to the forefront.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And so am I on way.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Up because this affects a lot of black women in particular,
and that is what happens when doctors don't listen. Now,
we do have somebody here who has been on it
and on it in the medical world. Her TikTok about
patient dismissal went viral. We're going to talk about ww's
and all of that, right and yes, and one point
(00:41):
nine million views you got and then eight hundred and
two thousand on Instagram as a real you're a Board
Certify family physician, a health equity advocate, and the founder
of Clinicians Who Care. Doctor Bio Curry Minchelle is here,
Doctor Bio, welcome to weigh Up.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me. I'm just excited to us
to be here in this room. Like the energy.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I'm all in listen, I love your energy.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And just for backstory on her way here, she had
a journey, but she made it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I sure did, and I stayed positive. But yes, my
uber driver got into an accident, you know, but I
hustle it got out and I had some exercise this morning.
So that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I came in here and looking like nothing happened. But yes,
so we're glad to have you here. And of course,
Coach Jesse is the person who brought you to the
forefront from me, and you're gonna you're gonna be talking
with us and educating all of us and keeping us
all accountable, because that's what Coach Jesse does for me.
You know, she is the founder of the detax now
dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Coach Jesse.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yes, ma'am, welcome back, Thank you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I love you too.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Now, doctor Baya, before we get into the solutions that
you've come up with, because I feel like it's one
thing to talk about problems, but it's another thing when
you actually find how do we solve these issues? Because
we've been talking about a lot of the problems that
we have when it comes to our health, right, and
so I want people to understand what your story is.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
You live this not.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Just as a doctor, but also as a patient, so
talk to us about what was happening with you and
how doctors kept brushing you off.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So the work that I do in this advocacy space
exactly what you said, Angela. People talk about it, but
what is the action behind it? And although I've been
in this space for a long time, it wasn't until
I nearly became a statistic that we hear about all
the time, which is black women are three times more
likely to die during childbirth or shortly thereafter than our
(02:35):
white counterpart. Well, I had just delivered my second baby
and I came out of the c section, and it
was about thirty minutes. I knew I didn't feel right,
and I knew it because I was having a hard
time concentrating, I was having a hard time talking, and
I just felt this level of fatigue that I had
not felt two years prior with my first baby. So
(02:58):
as I sat with that, I finally said I called
my nurse and I said, something isn't right and she said,
you look fine, bio, everything looks normal. This is how
you're supposed to feel. So I sat with that for
a little bit longer and I started to get worse.
So I reached out to her again, and she said,
this is completely normal. You are experiencing everything that you
(03:21):
should and as she I'll never forget. As she exited
that as she exited the room, it started to get worse.
I started to feel a pain that I'd never felt
in my life. And so I asked my husband to
call my doctor, and I was luckily to have the
privilege of having his number thank you in my phone,
(03:41):
and so he called and said, something's wrong with bio.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
My doctor came over and he knew something wasn't right.
I at that point, I could barely articulate what was happening.
Next thing I know, I go to the I'm sent
to the or. I found that I'm bleeding internally, I'm
transfusingmultiple units of blood. It was hospitalized for weeks and
so in that moment, I nearly lost my life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And so and knowing something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I knew something was wrong. And so this work that
I do is not only just a part of this like,
it's personal. I want to help as many people as
I can, and especially women and black women be able
to have that voice because I know what it's like
and I nearly became that statistic. So if I can
(04:31):
share my story and hopes that that's statistic that you hear,
you can have an image behind it, because this is
a hospital that I work as a physician and a
medical director, so the staff knew me for years, but
it didn't matter right.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And imagine was somebody who was having their first baby
and someone's just telling you this is you're feeling everything
that you're supposed to feel, and you're like, okay, maybe
this is normal. Let me just right because you don't
have a point of right, you don't have a point
of reference. And then you're also, you know, a medical professional,
and some people don't know how to advocate for themselves
at a time like that because we feel like if
(05:09):
our doctor is telling us something that's just what it is,
let me just you know, bear through it exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And how many at that moment, I thought, especially during
the recovery, how many women who sit through this because
there is a power dynamic that exists between doctors and patients,
meaning the doctor is supposed to be the know all
that knows all the information and the patient. You're in there,
you're vulnerable, you don't feel well, and you're in a
(05:36):
state of where you're just waiting to get the information
to how can I feel better? And that shouldn't be
the case. And that's my love and passion is to
flip it where you it is your body, your decision,
and that doctor should share with you what things are
happening so you can have those answers. But it is
it's a vulnerable state to be in when you don't
(05:57):
feel well.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Yeah, I was just sharing with you doctor Bio, how
you know. When I had the brain aneurysm, I was
in a very similar position where I went because I
had the worst headache of my life, and thank God
for a good doctor who told me to go. My
nephrologists said, hey, you are a higher risk for a
brain aneurysm because of the kidney disease and sent me
(06:20):
for testing they can actually test showed I had a
significant brain aneurysm. And then the doctor after the neurosurgeon
says to me, you do you have a significant brain aneurysm.
And my pain level is through the roof. It's like
level twenty pain and that, as you know, that can
(06:40):
escalate your blood pressure. Like so my blood pressure was
that in a one ninety nine. Okay, that's crazy. That's
a stroke level right, and stroke level and you have
an aneurysm. Okay, And the doctor says to me, perfect,
I can fit you into my calendar in eight days,
go home and come back. And like I was telling
(07:02):
doctor Bio was like, if I was not an advocate,
I would have just said okay, because I would have
believed the doctor right. But I said, I knew right
who I said. If I go home like this, this
is going to rupture the aneurism and I'll have no
help and I will die at home.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, thank goodness.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
You know, you know it's crazy. But how many women
went home? And that's when you say, you literally feel
your life slipping away and you're fighting for it in
that moment.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You know, well, and I always like to talk about
you can be the most educated world traveler, all the things,
but when you walk into that exam room, all of
a sudden, all of that vanishes, yep. And you may
have had an agenda when you went in there of
what you want to say, but all of a sudden,
when this, when a doctor comes in, it's hard to
articulate it. It's hard to get it out. And then
(07:51):
if you are met with where it's like, well, you
look fine, your labs look fine, or you're just stressed.
That can all of a sudden diminish your concerns where
you start to doubt yourself and start to play a
different narrative of how you really feel because you know
you don't feel right.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Yeah, you hush the warning signs, correct, you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Know, doctor Bayo, You've also kind of pulled back the
curtain on what goes on in medical training which the
average person wouldn't know. And so I want you to
talk about that a little bit because this was fascinating
for me to hear about, but also something that can
kind of give some insight onto why sometimes we may
be treated like this.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
So you saw me smile because it is such a
joy to be able to lift that curtain and give
people the information I know as a doctor, because if
you can go in there knowing what that doctor knows,
so you can get the care that you should have.
Always that I feel for me is what medicine and
healthcare should be about. So an example, I talk about
(08:51):
the three c's, being clear, concise, and confident. How given
an example of that, if you are not feeling well
and you go to the doctor, like I just haven't
been feeling well for a couple of days. That doctor
can interpret it in many ways. They can say, Oh,
you're just anxious, or maybe you just need to sleep more,
or maybe you just need to kind of reduce your stress,
versus I've been having stomach pain for three days, I
(09:15):
can't eat, I'm not just all the time, and it's
impacting my quality of life. All of a sudden, you
are being clear, you're being concise, and you are being confident.
And I can tell you when you say it in
that way, a doctor who will have a running list,
Meaning there's a term called differential diagnosis. So based on
the symptoms that you present, that doctor will think of
(09:36):
three to four things that your symptoms could be associated with.
So that example I gave with stomach pain, the doctor's
going to think it could be constipation, it could be gallbladders,
it could be stressed. But if you give it in
the way that I said, all of a sudden, it's like, oh,
maybe we need to check for cancer. Maybe we need
to check for this. So my goal is to in
(09:57):
every area of health care, I'm going to give you
that language. I'll give you exactly what to say to
get to the next step, so that doctor is like, oh, no,
we need to check this. And then also I go
a little bit further. If you are in front of
a doctor and they tell you your labs look fine, everything
looks normal, this is what I recommend you say. I
(10:19):
understand that you that my labs are normal, but I'm curious.
I'm still not feeling well, So what are the next
steps to identify why I'm feeling like this? And using
the words curious or help me understand is an important
piece because I understand that not everyone feels comfortable. We
hear about advocating for yourself and standing up, yes, but
(10:42):
it can be hard. So if I can give you
the language that is non confrontational, that puts it to
the doctor in respect to you know, tell me your
decision making, help me understand your decision making, it helps
kind of equal the playing ground.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Keep that sat right.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's a partnership versus why did you do this? Why
are you doing this to me? Instead I'm curious behind
your thinking, I'm curious behind the decision making. It changes
that narrative.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
No, I like when I'm at the doctor and they
explain like over, I tell them that too. I'm like,
I really like for you to over explain everything to me.
And I'm always curious, like you said, to know like
all of the details. Don't just be like you're fine,
but like, oh, this is what this is, this is
your you know, and just so that I can feel
more comfortable in knowing it. And like Coach Jesse would
be like, well, what are your numbers do you have?
(11:34):
She's like, can you screenshot that?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Is sen it to me?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yes, you know, it's really helpful and even you know
with my patients, like let's say, if I have a
patient that I need to send to a specialist, I
will tell her to ask the doctor, Okay, if they're
going to order labs, if my labs are abnormal, what
is the plan? If my labs are normal, what is
the plan? Because how many of us have waited for
(11:58):
results and you're just like.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
What's doing idea?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
What's it mean?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
You can go in there exactly saying okay, what's what's
the plan, And then it gives you agency to find
out is this doctor on the same playing field as me?
Because if they're thinking we're not going to do anything
if these labs are normal, you know, in advance, it's true,
and that way you can decide do I stay with
this doctor or do I go a different route.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Another thing that I learned on a build on the
differentials diagnosis was really important, which was you know, to ask,
what are your differential diagnosis for what I'm dealing with?
But then also when they list them out, it's like,
so what evidence do you have? Like that's ruling those
other things out right, because when you ask that important question,
(12:42):
then they actually have to run tests that they they
could have skipped. Right. So, for instance, I had I
shared the story how I have polycist to kidney disease.
I've I've shared this numerous time, and it's a genetic
kidney disease where their cysts all over and I had
a pain right here, which I thought it was a
(13:03):
ruptured cyst, right, but given all the surgical history I have,
I said, you know, I cannot assume. So I went
to the er and they said, okay. First they did
a CT scam to make sure it wasn't an obstruction
because I've had numerous obstructions in you know, abdominal obstructions
from small valbstructions. They ruled that out and they also
did a d diimer test to make sure it wasn't
(13:25):
a blood clot right, because again they're looking at what
it can be. And I said, all right, so what's
what is the evidence that rules that out? So then
they did a test I think the next one. They
ran labs made sure that there was an enzyme that
they tested for. Right. Once all of those came back negative,
the result was, okay, it must be a ruptured cyst.
(13:47):
So then I came back to my nephrologist and he said, okay,
if it is a ruptured cyst, the pain will dissipate
in one to two weeks. So I tracked that and
then it was gone. So we knew that's what it was.
But in cases where you know, we've spoken about my cousin.
In fact, my cousin died of colon cancer a year
ago and he had back pain. That back pain, thirty five, young, healthy,
(14:15):
never sick, but his dad died of pancreatic cancer. Right,
So when he had back pain, the doctor initially said, oh,
it must be like from gardening, you pulled something. I said, okay,
I can figure that in a week or two. You're
talking about months later and no imaging was done until May.
So if he would have said, hey, how do we
(14:37):
know that it's just that? You know, like, what tests
will you run to show and prove that it's not?
What are the other And I felt so like, wow,
we really don't have that language. So thank you so
much for sharing that, because it is important to know
that they have to rule out the worst cases first.
That is what you want the doctors to do. What's
the worst, what's the monster. Let's look at what the
(14:59):
monster is. Let's prove that it's not that monster before
we start taking, you know, to my life.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
It's literally on the line.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It is it really is. It is your life. And
first I just want to say I'm sorry for your loss.
And it makes me think. So I had a patient
five months ago. I'll just call her Maria, and she
had been to three doctors before I saw her, and
she had been dealing with stomach pain. She was a
little nauseous, and she was like, nothing really makes it better,
but I do know when I eat, even if I'm
(15:27):
just trying to do crackers or ginger ale, it makes
it worse. Well, she had been told that she was constipated,
then she was told that it was just like an
irritable bowel syndrome, and then that she was stressed. So
by the time I saw her, I said, well, do
you have any family history of any cancer? And she
was like, well, my mom had breast cancer, but nothing else.
(15:47):
And so as I'm examining her, I said, have you
ever had a kolonoscopy? She's twenty eight years old, and
she was like, no, no one has ever said anything.
I was like, We're going to do a colonoscopy. She
was diagnosed. I diagnosed her with colon cancer. And that's
the thing like having a doctor not only to share
all those differential diagnoses dig a little bit deeper, but
(16:10):
if they don't, having the language of help me understand,
what else could it be? And you have the right
to know all of the options available, and then you
choose with which path you would like to go.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Speaking affective bio, you've gotten like millions of views on TikTok,
just kind of explaining your own experience. Why do you
think that hits so hard for people?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I believe it hits hard because I represent what a
lot of us are going through. And for me, as
a doctor, I dance to my own beat. I'm not traditional.
I am a doctor who will hug you in my
exam room. I will spend extra time, and yes I
do get in trouble, but I don't care and I've
(16:51):
always when I do, and when you see me online,
I am authentic to the core. I am someone who
will share all the things I share, even my mishaps,
the things that you know, things that I wish I
could have done better, And I think it resonates with people.
And I take great pride in what I put online
(17:14):
because for me, it's not just about content. It is
about serving the people who have taken the time to
listen to my information. And I take it very seriously
because for me, it's like each person is in that
exam room with me. So whatever I put out there,
I want to make sure you have the best information possible.
(17:35):
So wherever your circumstances are, wherever you live, you can
advocate and you can stand alone for yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What do you think about people using like AI and
TEDGBT to diagnose themselves, because I know nowadays a lot
of people are like, well, let me just put it
in here and ask and see what's wrong with me.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Let me put my symptoms in here. What would you say.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think it's a great starting point. You just have
to make sure that you don't put any personal information.
And the other thing is whatever information you get, have
it followed up with the doctor, because we can't forget
that AI is just perpetuating the inequities and the racial
disparities that I've already seen that. So I've had patients
who have put in certain symptoms and because of what
(18:20):
is built in our system as far as not always
including people of color with certain diseases. A great example,
I had a lady who came in. She was having
She noticed her gait, her walking had changed a little bit,
as well as our handwriting, and so it was very small.
She's one that does very beautiful cursive. She put it
into AI and it said, oh, you're just it's because
(18:42):
of your your age. You're getting older. She's fifty six
years old, so as I'm when she came in, right right,
But you know, the interesting part was, and it is young.
It is very young. I know some of the age
bias and all the things that are in there. I'm like,
I'm like, and so as we're talking, I've fast forward.
(19:06):
She I diagnosed her with Parkinson's and you know she's
a black woman, and think about what you see when
you think of Parkinson's do you see someone that looks
like us?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
No?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
No, And so AI will perpetuate some of those things
because it hasn't been built that narrative that that look.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
The reference given that lens right. But you know what
I have found to be helpful is actually when you
give it directions specifically for those inequities though, but you
don't know to look for it, Like you have to say, well,
what is the research specifically on that? So then it
has to go looking and digging for it, and when
it does dig for it, so you can't just be
(19:44):
general like you need to. It's like operating understanding there
are inequities in the system and because of that, filtering
based on that I mean. But definitely a first step
in helping you with your research, even as you go
and you work with your physician who cares.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yes, absolutely, And you know the other thing is women
we haven't been studied. I always like to tell people
the number I give it. This is a great example.
Women's health has been studied as long as Netflix has
been around thirty years, which is all the.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Research that's been has not included women, and that's why
we need to be in these positions to make sure
that research is getting done.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
That's why we have all the issues.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Because they never factor us in right correct, and that's
why some medications are good. Another example, two years ago,
there was a woman who had fallen asleep at the
wheel and she got pulled over. She had taken the
medication ambient. Well, we found out that ambient you can't
give a woman ten milligrams the regular dose. But it
hadn't been studied in women, had only been studied in men,
and we should be.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Period.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Oh okay, yeah, took it, so it was it was
still in our system. And so now it's recommended a
lesser dose.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
So that's that's actually crazy. So after the whole brand
aneurysm thing, I developed terrible because it was also connected
to hyperparathyroidism. I'm telling you this medical speech. Right, hyperca
hyper calcemia was found which caused terrible, terrible It was
driven by vitamin D de efficiency as well. Right, was
(21:17):
very severe. I didn't know this at the time, and
guess what. It took like a year to get me regulated.
So I was dealing with insomnia where nothing helped, Like
the only thing that worked was ambient. Right. So I'm
talking to now a sleep specialist who's saying to me,
I said, well, you know I'm down, things are getting better.
I'm down to like a quarter of a pill, right
(21:38):
because the pill is ten milligrams. And he's like, that's
not that's not working. I'm like, no, I'm telling you
it actually works. Going back to a physician who doesn't
they're like, this is crazy. She doesn't know. I know
that I'm actually doing it. So if you're down to
a quarter, then that's not even giving you an effect. Yeah, no,
it's working. So that's like if you don't have someone
(21:58):
number one, as a woman, it affected my body different.
And then as someone who's got the issues I have,
I could even use even much less by that point, right,
because I couldn't drive if I even took half a pill,
which is five miligrams, I couldn't drive.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
And that clinician is going off of data when he's
telling you that, oh, that little amount won't work. He's
going off of what has been studied in men, not women.
So that you know, kind of the ongoing disparity or
incorrect information happens in exam rooms every day because we
haven't been studied well.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Doctor value that brings us to clinicians who care.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I want to get right into that because you created
this space, so talk to us about what is clinicians
who care.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
So over ninety percent of Americans have shared that they
have been dismissed or gas lit when they see care
and that means being told that you're fine, everything is okay. Well, recently,
I shared another story of dismissal that happened to me
during my third year of medical school in Chicago. I
noticed that I started losing my hair, I was dealing
with joint pain, and my hands and my feet were
(23:03):
swollen every morning, didn't matter what I did, and so
I went to the doctor and I was told, well,
do you think you're pregnant. I was like, no, I don't.
That's pregnant. That's what happened. It's in my record. And
then I was told, well, this is normal because you're
in medical school and you are just stressed out. So
after going to six doctors, I finally found one doctor
(23:27):
to listen and believe me, and I ultimately ended up
with the diagnosis of lupus and I have a clotting
disorder as well well. I shared that story online. I
had never shared that, even though I share a lot,
and when I did, it blew up because people were
sharing the names. They were sharing their dismissal, but they
were also sharing the name of a doctor who had listened, cared,
(23:48):
and believed them. I'll never forget one lady wrote in
all caps, it took forty two years to get a
diagnosis of ADHD. And then I thought to myself, Oh,
I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to
create a list that connects people with doctors who've been
shown to listen, care and believe their patients. Because if
you can find a doctor from the jump that will
(24:09):
just listen to you and believe you, it can help
set you on the right path. So created my team,
a small little team. We created a Google form and
we put city and state and now we have country
and I'll get to that. And then we made it.
We put every single specialty, so we have obi, GIND,
we have orthopedic cardiology, midwives, pharmacists, GI all of it,
(24:32):
and you write in how that doctor made you feel.
It is a patient recommended list. It is organic. I
started it just a few months ago and.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Are putting themselves on there now.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
They could be, but we have vetted, you know, we'vet
and we can see and you can see the difference
when a patient shares it. But it could happen. But
the cool thing is because you've never seen anything else
like that. Where I use in the best example is
how many of us have called a girlfriend or friend
(25:03):
and said, do you know a name of a doctor
that you can try.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I had someone on here the other day, a couple
Akisha Colonna Willie Cologne, and she had at yes, she
had several miscarriages before finally fortunately having a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
She had nine right, eight?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Okay, well, she had several miscarriages and then finally was
able to go see a doctor she talks about in
her book that was listening to her. She felt heard
and she ended up having a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Followed by another one.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And so it really was about the doctor that came
through for her and that helped her and was like
all you need is one egg. You know, she had
other doctors that was telling her, well, you're going to
have to get a donor egg.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
You know, you're going to have to do this, and you.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Know, she didn't want to do she didn't want to
go that route, and so finally she found the right doctor.
But just to think about, like how many women are
going through that and they just don't have their and
they're getting these suggestions of what they should be doing
or being told well, that's not going to happen for
you, you need to do X, Y and Z. And then
it ended up happening because she went to the right doctor.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It can make a huge difference. Just three weeks ago,
I received a DM and a woman said that she
had been dismissed for several years. She found an ob
gine on the list and unfortunately was diagnosed with a
varying cancer. But in the message, she said, thank you
because I found a doctor that took all of my
symptoms seriously, Like that's a message. And then I had
(26:35):
a mom who reached out from Connecticut and said, I
have a newer divergent child and I have been looking
for a pediatrician who will take my child and their
journey seriously. And it touches my heart because she said
I found someone on your list. I saw them and
we have a plan. It's like that's healthcare.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Angela.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Yes, and that it touches my heart because there's a
lot our system is fractured. We know that. But if
we can have something that will help us get to
the right care sooner rather than later, that's huge.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
No, it's phenomenal. Let me tell you. I because of
I was telling you in the room, because of the
complications from the fibroids surgers. Remember I told you this
Angela was like the complications I deal with the lifelong chronicle.
They're not from the fibroids, They're from the surgeries. They're
from the complications from the surgeries. And because of that,
I have a long life chronic disease called short bowel syndrome,
(27:37):
and it literally affects me every day. Every single day.
Life is different because of it. Okay, and finding a
gastroin terrologist that actually believed me was everything. Before I
actually found someone, I found so many gastros who were
like basically blowing me off, trying to put me on
(27:57):
you know, blockers and all these things that would not
work for me and were harmful to my kidneys and
all these other things. So I was like, you know what,
I added doctor Solomon David to your list last night, so.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Queen's New York.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
He's in there, and I was like, because you need
we need doctors who care.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
It's already hard going to the doctor. I just want
to say that it is like you need to go.
A lot of people will avoid, you know, and it
does take time out of you know, and sometimes we
just also are like I feel, okay, I'm not going
to go.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Into something's wrong, but if you have because of fear, yeah,
that is fear.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And it is also because now if you had a
clinician who you felt like they care about me, I'd like,
let me go talk to as an experience, is something's wrong.
I feel comfortable that they're going to listen to what
it is that I have to say and that they're
going to make sure I know what I need to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Like that's important. You know, it's a relief when you.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Leave, right, it's huge. It gives you that extra step
because how many people have just decided I'm not going
to go exactly what you mentioned because it's going to
be a waste of time, or are going to be
set are told things that aren't really helpful at all,
like oh, just go exercise, or you just need to
lose weight. I've had a lot of patients who have
reached out to me on Instagram and they'll say, I've
(29:08):
been told for the fifth time that all of my
symptoms are due to my weight, and I know it isn't.
I need to find someone who will listen, and then
they find someone on the list and they finally have
those answers. So if you can go into your doctor's
appointment not only feeling like, Okay, I'm going to have
the chance to get forward what's been happening in my
(29:28):
life and listened to, that's huge.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
And I think the other thing is that many people
are not diagnosed until things are too late because they
feel afraid of corect to the doctor. And because of that,
there are a lot of disparities that are you know,
high levels in terms of cases of cancer being diagnosed
much later. Fibroids. We see it all the time in
fireboords because women are being told hysterect me is their
(29:54):
only option, or because they're being told that they're pain,
they're heavy bleeding. All of that is normal. So instead
of saying no, let's see what it is, Oh wait
a minute, let's look at your D three levels. Because
science has shown us that that's a major driver as
to you know, fibroids, and no, they're not being given
that care. And because of that, it becomes words and
(30:14):
we're disproportionate. Our numbers are disproportionate because of it.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Absolutely, when you think of heart disease, kidney disease, there's
something else that I've been advocating for when it comes
to blood pressure. This I don't know if you guys, yes,
I saw you what I've been for fifteen years, right
classes and so anyone listening right now, if you are
on blood pressure, I guarantee you're probably if you are black,
(30:39):
you're on either a calcium channel blocker or thigh side.
Those are two classes pressure. We may not think of
hydro hydrochlorothiazide or a calcium channel blocker like metoprolol. And
so of what what has been recommended is if you
are black and you have high blood pressure, you are
(31:01):
the recommendation is that you should have one of two
of these classes of high blood pressure medication just based
on the color of your skin. Well, that has been
debunked and it shouldn't be happening, but it's still happening
every day. Our organs are the same. And also let's
just take a step back, let's talk about other options
as well, not just medication. Oh and so that part
(31:22):
is huge, and so I share with people. If a
doctor says, oh, I'm going to put you on this
high blood pressure medication, ask why did you choose this medication?
Help me understand what your decision behind this, because if
you hear and these are my red flags that I
call it the implicit red flags because you're black, because
you're of your weight, because of your age, that doctor
(31:44):
may not be the right doctor for you because they
are not taking to as an individual individual. And that's
the way medicine should be. It should be personalized.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
And you've also talked about how sometimes people are grouped
by you know, WWT please go Can you break that for.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Us and a ww according to them, yes, and I
am I'm probably as well.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
And I think that girl, we got we got the club.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And I think that's.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Because being a patient and a doctor, but sharing like
my journey with lupus, which is an autoimmune, all of
our conditions and so in medical school and it's still happening,
I remember hearing the term ww and a lot of
other doctors have talked about it, and it's considered to
be it's called whiny women, and it is associated with
multiple conditions, meaning you are just anxious, you're nervous, all
(32:33):
the things other than an actual condition. And the other
term is tw train wreck. So imagine if you have
an autoimmune disease, God forbid, you have another condition like
high blood pressure or something else, and you go into
the doctor and you need help. Well, your doctor may
write tw as like a train wreck, or may say
(32:54):
that to the medical students or residents, and it's a
label that prevents you from being able to get the care.
As far as what could that differential diagnosis be, what
could that running list be? Instead of this association and label,
I'm going to give you another one that I did
a video about as well, the four FS, and this
one is still live today. So fat, fertile, forty female
(33:18):
in medical school, PA school, nurse practitioner school. If you
fit those four categories, meaning you are forty years old,
you are considered overweight your female, you the diagnoses would
be a gallbladder issue. So if you come in you've
had stomach pain, you're forty your female, and you are
overweight The first thing I'm going to think of is
(33:39):
maybe you have a gall bladder issue versus anything else.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
And that's a sow many other f's.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
It could be, It could be so many different things
put the fight, but that those associations instead of saying, okay,
let's go through the symptoms that my patient is sharing
with me, Let's find out all of the things that
it could be.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
That bias is going to get them to miss what's
really happening exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
And that goes into why we have the disparities.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
That we have.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
You know, this makes me think about what I shared
with you about the four my three laws for exceptional
patient care. This is and this happened, you know. I
came up with it after my whole brain aneurysm thing, Angela,
and it was that, you know, if we will just
listen to what our bay. I say, listen to your bay,
which is your body, your advocates and your experts, right
(34:34):
listening to your body. Because Number one is pain is
a warning sign. It doesn't matter if you have pain,
that is your body telling you something is wrong and
you should not and not dismiss it, and not ignore
it and speak to a doctor until you find the
right one that is actually helping you address what is
causing it. That's number one, right, So that means if
(34:57):
they're not listening, you need another doctor. Don't don't let
somebody just send you home, and it's never as resolved
because pain is a warning sign if you don't listen
to what I said. But if you don't listen to
the whisper, it's going to become a scream. A whisper
can be elevated blood pressure, where the scream is a
heart attack, right A. And so that was body A
(35:18):
is advocates. Medical bias is real. We have literally broken
that down. So we need you need not as you
just should, but you need an advocate in the room
with you, whether it's on the phone, on FaceTime, physically
with you because as she talked about, how you can
be vulnerable when you're in pain and you're dealing, there's
so many things we miss because we're vulnerable. So you know,
(35:41):
have people with you who either on the phone, someone
with you who can ask questions who you may not
be hearing, because medical it's really real, right. And then
the last one is the experts, And this is really
important when you go into the physician's office. There are
two experts in the room at all times. There is
(36:02):
the physician who is the expert in there, whatever specialty is,
and there's you who you're the expert on yourself. Right.
So if you are dealing with a doctor who dismisses
your expertise, because the truth is you are you are
the biggest clue and and source of information to finding
out what's really wrong. Right, So if they are not
(36:25):
validating and listening to your expertise, they're not the right doctor,
period period. And I go all clinicians who care because
I vote with my feet. I go to doctors who
care right well.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
And I like to paint the picture of you are
at the doctor and your doctor is dismissing you. You
know that you're being gasolet and to your point, sticking
with this is happening. So I tell my patients, I'm like,
do not doubt yourself, because when you are experiencing that
and you are feeling it, it is real. And then
the second thing is leading with that careosity language because
(37:01):
you need to find out where is that doctor. Is
that doctor going to be able to meet you where
you are or do they are they not? And then
the third thing that people don't talk about is you
can ask for a different doctor. You can fire that doctor.
If you are in the situation like we know the
viral videos that have been happening that we've seen with
the three women, you can ask for a different nurse.
(37:23):
You can ask for someone else. And the fourth thing
that you can do, and this depends upon your situation,
but you can be transferred to another hospital. And a
lot of times people don't know that that if you
are not getting the care you need, you can be transferred.
And then the fifth thing is in that moment, if
all things aren't working for you and you know that
(37:43):
you're not getting the care that you need, I say record,
I say, you know, making sure whatever you need to
do to have a witness with you in that room
is huge, and not everybody can bring someone, but if
you can record, and sometimes just saying that, all of
a sudden, they let me get a point. And then
the last one that I talk about that I think
(38:04):
people often don't realize is you can say, can you
document in my chart that you have decided not to
give me this care? Can you document that you've decided
that we do not need the extra steps. Now I
give that ladder because it helps you kind of give
a framework for what you can do in the beginning
as you work your way down. But everyone's, you know,
situation is different, but this at least gives you a plan.
(38:27):
The other thing that can be helpful is a medical playbook,
and I love this. I have one for myself, and
it allows you to track your symptoms. It allows you
to track what doctors have said certain things to you.
And that way when you see a doctor and they're like, well,
we're going to do this test, and you can show, oh,
I've already checked my blood count, I've already done this.
(38:48):
What is next?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And so I have that free I have a free
because my whole point is like, let me give you everything,
so you can go on my side. You can see
if it's a free medical playbook. And the other thing
that's important I got a lot is before your doctor's appointment,
I want you to write down your top three concerns
and so you're going to start with those. And because
most doctor's appointments, you've got about fifteen minutes with that doctor,
(39:12):
and before you go in, you're going to practice with
those three c's of what you want to say, and
so when you go in, you're prepared to start with
those top three so you.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Don't feel rushed to get out rush. The doctor's got to.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Go right, and you start with I know we've got
about fifteen minutes, but these are the top three pressing
issues that I'd like to talk about, and then you
lead with what is the next plan? So that's what
you do in that fifteen minutes because realistically, that's what
most people are facing when they see their doctor.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
You know, doctor Baya, you are definitely a clinician who cares.
I can tell just by this platform that you've created,
but also how passionate you are when you talk about everything.
So I can't even imagine, you know, just the help
that you've given to people. And I know that's your
mission and we can feel it in this room. I
appreciate you and thank you because I know you have
(40:03):
a lot going on, but the fact that you took
time to come out here to talk to our audience
on this platform does mean a lot to us as well.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Thank you for having me and I it is like
the warmth that I feel in this room. It's fantastic,
and I will let me know if it I can
help in any further, I'm like, this is my love
and passion just to share health as widely as possible,
because we all consume information differently. And for the doctors
who are still you know, of course give that care
(40:33):
in the room, but people are hungry for more information.
And for me, if I can help you online, if
I can help you through any sort of medium where
you get that information in a free format, that fills
my soul. And I tell my medical students and residence,
I'm like, it is such a gift to be a
(40:53):
part of people's most intimate lives and you need to
cherish that. And that's what I think of every time
I walk in into a patient's room, like what can
I help them with? What can I serve them with?
And I think that is another thing that we need
to embed into our culture because healthcare has lost that
narrative and that's where that heartbeat is supposed to be
(41:16):
when it comes to delivering care. So thank you for
having me here, thank you for the opportunity to reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I am grateful, and please add your if you have
an amazing experience, please care dot com that profession do
you have a book coming out to.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I DO, and so the book will be live January
twenty twenty seven. The working title is how to Talk
to Your Doctor all of it. All of it, and
the wonderful part that I'm very excited about is as
a family medicine doctor, I work in all areas of health.
So this can help you whether you're you know, emergency room,
(41:54):
whether you are going for surgery, any part, and it
can help you stand up for yourself in those moments.
But also if you're a caregiver, because a lot of
us eighty percent of women are the caregiver, and it
will help you have the language to advocate not only
for your loved one, but for yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Oka phenomenal, perfect well, thank you so much. We appreciate
you for coming through this.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
You're saving lives.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Thank you, Thank you for having me
Way Up With Angela Yee News
Host
Angela Yee
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