February 20, 2025 • 53 mins
When you look at the data, it is true that after people have kids, marital satisfaction declines. Having a baby drastically changes everything in your partnership that was familiar, that was predictable, that you got used to. And some of those are the reasons you got into the relationship in the first place.
That’s the reality of having kids. And as much as we love them, it can be an incredible shock to the system. There were date nights, there were lazy Sunday mornings in bed, and now there are feedings and diaper changes, feeling touched-out, packing school lunches the night before or at 5:45 in the morning. To paraphrase Ethan Hawke’s character from Before Sunset: We used to be in love. Now we’re roommates who run a day care together.
Today on ParentData, we're joined by Dr. Yael Schonbrun, a clinical psychologist, an author, and a researcher who focuses on the science and data behind healthier, happier relationships. And she’s here to help you baby-proof your relationship. Take heart: for many — probably most — couples, this issue is not hopeless.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So tomorrow, so Emily, tell me about this subreddit.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Okay, so this subreddit is called our slash Beyond the Bump,
and I have to say I'm a little obsessed with it.
I have a very kind of love hate relationship. As
far as subreddits about pregnancy and parenting go. This one's
not for like regular moms. This one's for like cool moms.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Is the one for regular moms, just like the Bump.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well that's that's an app actually, Okay, No, like the
regular one is like our slash Pregnancy or our slash
Toddlers or whatever. But this one is like, you know,
moms who are ready to like really engage in like
real talk about what it's really like. And what that
amounts to is these really kind of intense emotional confessionals
(00:56):
about things that have been really hard. And I think
that people feel like they can kind of hide behind
the anonymy of Reddit and engage in this community of
people who are like here for it, and they end
up talking about really traumatic birth experiences and people will
jump in and like hold them and share theirs or
(01:20):
you know, like those those can be pretty powerful. But
then also people are like going off on their mother
in laws, and you know, my mother in law like
fed my kid at the wrong time and like did
this thing that wasn't really that unsafe, but it was
like a little unsafe. Should I cut her out of
my life?
Speaker 4 (01:38):
My mother in law gave my child a honey nut cheerio.
Should I revoke her access forever or just for a year?
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Like, I don't know how many people are just able
to give up babysitters like this. But all right, So
that's our slash beyond the Bump, and I find myself
quite moved by it and also really kind of repelled it.
But then there is the weekly pinned thread where people
complain about their partners, and if you actually search in
(02:11):
the little search bar for hate plus husband, you get
pages and pages of posts with the title of I
hate my husband. You guys, I really think I hate
my husband? Why do I hate my husband? Is it
normal to hate my husband this much? After having a baby?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Since having a baby, I hate my husband. I think
I hate my husband. I'm starting to hate my husband.
I hate my husband. PSA, I hate your husband. Well
that's different.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Being coming a mother taught me how to love myself,
and now I hate my husband.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, there are a lot of marriages that are really
on the brink, Like you'd almost think that they're all
on the brink by going to this subreddit and it's
like these are the posts like every other day, and
you know, like I said, the anonymity of it definitely
opens people up, and I think that it's kind of
nice that there's a space for that. I can't quite
(03:04):
tell if this is kind of for clout or you know,
kind of misery loves company, or if everyone here is
really really struggling. And you know, it's the Internet, so
it's probably a combination of both.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
My husband is sleeping and I hate him.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Okay, I relate to that. This is parent data. I'm
Emily Oster.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Reddit has a tendency to exacerbate real world problems, but
that doesn't mean that these problems are not real.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And when you look at the data, it is true.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
That after people have kids, marital satisfaction declines. Having a
baby drastically changes everything in your partnership that was familiar,
that was predictable, that you got used to, and some
of those are the reasons you got into their relationship
in the first place. That's the reality of having kids,
and as much as we love our kids, it can
(04:06):
be an incredible shock to the system. There were dates, nights,
there were lazy Sunday mornings in bed, and now there
are feedings and diaper changes, feeling touched out, packing school
lunches the night before or at five point forty five
in the morning. To quote Ethan Hawke's character from before Sunset,
we used to be in love. Now we're roommates who
(04:26):
run a daycare together. There are things that bring us
together in ways we could not imagine a crazy amount
of shared love. But there's also a crazy amount of
shared details and shared responsibilities and.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Less money and more work. And it's a.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Tall order to ask your relationship to just adapt to
something like that. A lot of couples, most couples struggle,
and they find themselves on beyond the bump, explaining that
their husband's sleeping and they hate them. But going to
Reddit is actually not the best place to solve these problems,
and for many, probably most couples, this issue is not hopeless.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And that's where today's guest comes in. Doctor Ya L.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Schoenbrun is a clinical psychologist and author, a researcher who
focuses on the science and data behind healthier, happier relationships,
and she's here to babyproof your relationship. In this conversation,
we talk about the kinds of conversations couples need to
be willing to have to actually be heard.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
We talk about the difference between.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Understanding conversations and problem solving conversations. We also talk about
when is a good time to have hard conversations and
when isn't, notably when you are angry and tired.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We talk about how to babyproof your relationship.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Before the baby arrives, and then we get into some
lightning round specific issues about what can strain couples, what
can overcome the strain, and how we can try to
show up as our best selves not just for our kids,
but for each other. And yes, if you fall along
in my marriage, we will be discussing the conflict over
the dishwasher loading after the break. Doctor Yeah, Elle shoon Brun,
(06:23):
Doctor yeah, l Shoon Brun. Thanks for being here again.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
So excited to join you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
I'm very excited to talk about everybody's favorite topic, which
is that you will hate your partner.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
After you have children.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
If there's one like accepted truth about marriage and child marrying.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It's that after kids, your partner is a loser.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
So you can see that, you know, from people's everyday
experience from Reddit, but also we see this in the data.
So actually there is a fair amount of data showing
the marital happiness declines when people have kids, especially in
the first year.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But even though people like to talk about this and
make jokes about it, actually it's not great.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
And the goal here is to give people some tips
to make that happen less or at least talk about
why it happens.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So we're going to do that.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
We're going to be productive and not just talk about Wait,
let's start. Do you have a partner?
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I do.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
I have a husband?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
You have a husband, and what can you just just
so we set the stage, can you just.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Tell me one thing that he does that annoys you?
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Oh? Why do I begin? No, I'm just kidding, he is.
I actually was just recently talking to a marital researcher
who had this lovely metaphor of some of us are
ferns who need a whole lot of watering. We're like rainforests,
and we just need so much attention, right in the
form of watering in the form of attention, and so
(07:57):
I am definitely a fern and he is more of
a succulent, so a difference, and so he's kind of
off doing his thing, and I really need a whole
lot of attention, especially if I'm sort of putting out
energy in caring for the kids and caring for my
patients and doing my writing work. And what he needs
is like independent time to because he's a classic introvert.
(08:18):
So it annoys me that when he's stressed he needs
time away.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
What is one thing you really like about him?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
So this is a thing that so in addition to
my background as a researcher, and I also do marital
treatment a lot. And one of the things I often
think about is that any couple can make strides, can
make gains if they are willing to work on it.
So he is always willing to work on things with me,
and I think that is so critical. And it's kind
of like a relational growth mindset that it almost doesn't
(08:48):
matter where you begin, so long as you have a
partner who's willing to collaborate with you and getting to
a place that works better for the both of you.
Recognizing that it will never be perfect, and he is
definitely in that camp.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I love that. I was going to go in like
a much more like specific direction with mine. Yours are
much better.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
I was going to be like, I like the way
he loads the dishwasher, but I don't like it. I
don't like did he snores? Those are yeah?
Speaker 5 (09:16):
No, I like, I like your snoring thing. And that
actually comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room too,
because it causes people to sleep in separate beds, which
causes a lot more distance because they don't have that
time together. How do you guys handle the snoring? It is?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Actually it doesn't most of the time. I can just
I just sleep through it. Although in this in the
spirit of growth mindset, I did suggest that we get
some breathewrte strips and he said he would consider that,
and so that that's like the next growth mindset experience.
But actually, most of the time, I just he's not
that bad, so you do kind of get used to it.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I think that that is also a good attitude and
has some growth mindset embodied in it.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Growth mindset. That's the theme for today. Okay, so let's
start with you. You know you've written some stuff for
us on this, and I want to sort of talk
through some of these productive approaches that people can take
to try to address these declines.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But let's just start with, like, what do you see
you treat people on this?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Is?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
What is the common pattern of sort of post child
bearing marital stuff?
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, well so is it is one of these really
common research findings. And it's certainly, as you said, something
we see a lot on Reddit, we see articles about
it that there is a precipitous drop in marital satisfaction
after babies enter the scene. The thing that I wrote
one piece about for parent Data that I think isn't
important finding is that not all couples go through this
(10:48):
precipitous drop, and so you're not doomed. If you're thinking
about having children, your marriage is not doomed. And if
you've had a precipitous drop, your marriage is also not doomed.
So there's lots of variability, and we can look at
the averages and there is an average job. But some couples,
and in fact the many couples do just find they're
sort of a stressful period, but they come together and
(11:10):
they cope as collaborators and that's great, and for a
lot of folks that change, those new stressors lack of sleep,
more demands on us really cause a fracturing. And so
one of the things to think about is before you
have kids to try to invest some time and energy
(11:30):
in building up your relationship or in preparing for the
transition as collaborators. And so a lot of the interventions
that have been tested with this transition of partnership to
co parents look at intervening in the lead up, so
helping people to strengthen the relationship before kids and then
(11:51):
helping them to figure out how to cope better after
the arrival of kids. And so there are a variety
of ways to intervene in both time pere, So can.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
We talk about the intervening before And you know, I
think is as sort of scientists and researchers, we talk
about this idea like we're going to intervene, but what
does that mean practically? Like what do they do in
these interventions and how do I know they work?
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, so there are randomized interventions looking at how people
can build up skills and so what does that actually
look like? I Mean, one thing to talk about it
is like what does actual couples therapy look like when
I have a couple who comes in and is telling me,
you know, we really don't see eye to eye on
how to manage the nighttime feedings, or on who does
(12:36):
the diapers, or on who's going to make a transition
in how they navigate their work life now that we
have children to take care of. So what does that
look like? A lot of it just looks like conversations
and helping people talk things through because a lot of
people don't know how to talk things through or avoid
it because it's kind of uncomfortable. These are difficult topics
to encounter. There's a lot of anxiety about what each
(12:59):
person wants and doesn't want. Sometimes there's a history of
conflict that people are worried about, kind of tripping up
and setting off a minefield. And so in the protected
environment of a couple's therapy room, you have somebody who's
kind of a mediator, who can structure things, who can
make sure that each person gets heard and feels heard.
And then there's some problem solving, collaborative problem solving, so
(13:22):
one of the I can give some of the communication
tips that are really helpful for a lot of couples.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
If that's yeah, I think that would be I think
it'll be useful.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, So in the couple's Therapy one oh one Communication Tips.
One of the most basic things that I tell people
is that we want to separate conversations into two distinct types.
So one is an understanding conversation, where the goal is
to have each person feel a bit better understood as
a speaker and to have each listener understand a little
bit better. And so the goal of an understanding conversation
(13:51):
is to improve understanding. The second kind of conversation is
a problem solving conversation, where the goal is to solve
a problem or come to a decision together or negotiate something.
And that one is something that people just kind of understand.
And actually, when it comes to having new children, we
almost always want to do the problem solving, want to
fix it, Like we're exhausted. There's so many stressors we
(14:13):
need to figure out, like what the baby's going to eat,
who's going to take care of it? You know what
that rash is, And so we just drop into default
mode of like problem solving is what we need to do.
But often what we what would actually be more effective
is to do understanding first, and we want to separate
them out because when one person is trying to have
an understanding conversation of like, I'm super stressed out this
(14:35):
exema on the baby is really freaking me out because
I'm worried it's going to lead to something different, and
the other person steps in and says, well, you need
to call the doctor immediately, then the anxiety doesn't get addressed.
And so by making suret and really clarifying each person
what kind of a conversation do I want to have,
we can kind of align on the communication goals. And
when people are aligned on communication goals, I can think
(14:57):
of like it's a rowboat, Like you can row in
the same direction. If you're not aligned, you're rowing in
different directions and you're just kind of going in circles
and it's super frustrating for both people.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
There's an interesting parallel to the kinds of conversations one
we'll eventually have with a teenager, where this distinction between like,
what are you hoping to get out of this conversation
and do you just want me to listen and hear
what you're saying, or do you want me to help
you fix it? Like, sometimes I will start conversations with
(15:27):
the teenager like is this a situation in which you're
looking for advice or do you just want me to
hear what you're saying, And by like voicing that at
the top, it's like, Okay, which conversation are we hoping
to have? Because if I'm trying to have the conversation
with my partner, I'm just like I'm so tired and
I'm exhausted, and the baby's pooping every twenty three times
(15:49):
in the middle of the night, and like I just
feel like crap, And you just want them to be like, wow, yeah,
that's a lot of poop.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I hear that you.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Don't like that much poop, And then they're like, well,
here are some tips I read on the internet about
how to get your baby to poopless.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Like that's not home.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Yeah, it's so it feels invalidating for the person who
just wants the understanding. And so the common example that
I give to couples that I work with is if
I had a really crappy day in office and I
go home and I tell my husband, oh, I just
feel like I'm not a good therapist or not a
good researcher, not a good writer. And he says, well,
you've been saying that a lot lately. Maybe you should
go get some more training or supervision or consultation. And
(16:27):
I was just looking for understanding of like, you poor thing,
but you're so great, I'm going to feel criticized, right,
And then I tell him, oh, you're such an unsupportive partner.
And he had come in trying to be helpful and
thoughtful and listening and responsive, and I'm telling him he's
a crappy partner. Now he feels criticized and invalidated. And
so here's this conversation where we both entered into this
(16:48):
space with good intentions, and both people are feeling really rotten.
And it is true, Emily, to your point that a
very similar kind of dynamic can happen with our kids,
It can happen with work colleagues, can happen with good
friends and family members. So this distinction of what kind
of a conversation do I want to have is one
that's really helpful in all sorts of relationships, and definitely
(17:09):
in our partnerships, just to have that sense of, you know,
if I know in advance, what kind of a conversation
I'm looking for. Can I ask for it from the
outset so that we don't get off on the wrong track.
Or if in the middle of a conversation, I'm noticing
that I'm feeling like this isn't going quite right and
I'm not aligning and I'm getting kind of frustrated, can
I sort of point out, Hey, I think I'm looking
(17:30):
for this kind of conversation, and you're maybe assuming that
I want that kind of conversation. Can we negotiate even
what kind of conversation we're having and maybe start in
one place, start by having an understanding conversation before we
move to the problem solving. And I will say, just
as a quick tip, it is almost always useful to
do the understanding conversation first before you do the problem solving,
even if it's very obvious that you want to do
(17:52):
the problem solving, even if it feels pretty straightforward, just
to do a quick little understanding, just so that you
make sure a you're both ready to solve a pro
that you're solving the same problem, or see that you're
solving the same parts of the same problem. Because often
problems that seem really obvious and simple have multiple parts,
and different parts matter to each of you. And so
(18:13):
if you can just sort of have that understanding piece
first so that you align on what it is and
how it is that you're going to do the problem solving,
that can make things go so much more smoothly.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Some of this is about practice and habit, and I
think that's you know, the sort of discussion about like
why would you do this before you have a baby.
There will be a moment after you have the baby
when you are tired, and it is not a time
that changing your habits and how you interact with someone
is cognitively challenging. And when we are asleep deprived, we
(18:47):
are not as up for cognitive challenges. And so this
sort of there's a little bit of a of a
kind of push. I would say, people say, well, everything
is going, everything's going fine, like we really like each other,
like our marriages is great.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
But the investment in having.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
A habit to address how to have harder conversations so
you are doing that before you are exhausted. I mean
that's part of the kind of pre almost like like
pre work, right, that's the pre work before the meeting
or you do, it's the pre read you should have.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
The pre read it's the pre baby prep. No, but
it's true. I think establishing habits that you're going to
do your best to sustain, recognizing that there will be
some messiness and some adjustment that is needed once a
baby enters the scene is so important. And in fact,
one of the studies that I think is really cool
that was conducted by a researcher by the name of
(19:40):
Brian Doss compared intervention that was focused on preparing people
for parenting together and uh intervention that was really just
relationship strengthening, and they both helped people to make the
transition from being partners to being co parents. So however
you're doing it, investing in those bits of maintaining a
(20:01):
relationship can really make you more resilient in that transition,
because you are going to be more fatigue, you are
going to be more stressed out. And so if you
have these kind of and there's a number of ways
to do it. I mean, one of the things that
I really encourage people to do is to have two
real brief appointments blocked on your calendar, and one is
to do like a marital check in, like how are
(20:23):
we doing, how are you doing, what do we need
to talk about, what's come up, so that you just
have a time in your week. And there's a couple
of reasons for this. One is that it's it's you
should do.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
This always or after you have kids, like they just
generally you should have always should always have a marital
check in.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yeah, so you should always have a marital check in,
and you should always have a time on your calendar
that is time to just enjoy one another, and you know,
the enjoy one another after you have babies, maybe like
you know, ten minutes before you pass out or you know,
five minutes before you have to run in different directions
in the morning. But again, it's like the habit of like,
let's connect, let's see each other as human beings who
(20:59):
I like, you know ideally, who like each other ideally.
And the marital check in can be this opportunity or
relationship check in if you're not married, can just be
an opportunity to talk about things that have been going
on and to bring your best selves to have that conversation,
because otherwise what happens is people wait until you know
(21:20):
the lid is about to come off the boiling pot,
and at that point you know, either you're tired or
your emotions have hijacked your brain and you're not going
to be talking rationally. You're going to say things that
you don't mean. The alternative can also happen where people
don't want to talk about things, and so they avoid, avoid, avoid,
and resentment grows. And in part it's because you don't
(21:41):
want to rock the boat, or because things are already
so bad you don't want them to really fall apart.
And so having this habit of every week we do
a check in, there's a beginning to the check in,
there's an end, and then we try to pivot and
go do other things just gives you an opportunity to
not miss out on talking about things before it hits
resent or to talk about it before it hits the
(22:02):
boiling point in a more thoughtful way.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
And you would separate like the nice time we spent
together from the we're doing a marital check in. We
have like two appointments, the hard conversation or put you know,
the check in appointment and the date.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Yeah, I would, although you know I recognize and you
know I'm a mother of three, so time is limited.
So there's a couple reasons for it, you know. One
is that we sometimes like get stuck in logistics mode
and then we run out of time to have fun,
and I think or we are having fun and we
(22:36):
don't really want to talk about logistics. The other is,
if you're talking about something that's difficult, it can be
hard to pivot to just enjoying one another that said,
I do think it's nice to if you can, in
your marital check in, try to finish with something positive
of life. But here's something that I really appreciate, so
that you can do that pivot in a way that
feels positive and you don't kind of drag some of
(22:57):
the negativity along with you.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
One of the questions I get a lot from people,
you know, when you when you talk about this, it
makes a lot of sense, and I think probably there
are many people who are like, oh, that sounds that
sounds reasonable. And one of the pieces of feedback that
I get from when I talk about these related issues,
when people talk about the work that you've done, is like,
(23:23):
my partner will not want to do this, Like I
don't think I can get my partner to do this.
And actually, something someone told me once was, you know,
these kind of tools are great if you like your partner,
But I don't like my partner, and so I could
never get them to do this, and I in some
ways I thought, of course, if you're already aligned with
(23:45):
your partner, then.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Maybe you don't have to do this as much.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Somehow this feels like it would be most useful when
one person is resistant. But you know, what do you
tell people if they say, you know, I just can't
get my partner to even engage with this kind of questions,
meaning for a marital checkup, talking about our relationship going
to therapy.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
They're not on it.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, I mean so one of the interesting research findings
is that it takes couples on average six years from
the start of identifying like a significant problem before they
enter into couple's therapy. And that's not surprising a because
people don't have a whole lot of time or resources,
and also there's usually half of a couple that isn't
particularly interested in couples therapy. But once people get there,
(24:30):
there's so much value. And so I do think it's
helpful to just talk about, like what to set approach goals.
So one of the things that we know from psychological
research is that when we set avoid in schools of like,
you know, I'm really unhappy and I don't want to leave.
I don't want to divorce you, so you better go
to couple's therapy with me is not a particularly warm invite, right.
(24:53):
It feels controlling, It feels like an ultimatum. It doesn't
feel particularly appealing to most people to receive an inmity
in that way, whereas if you say, you know, we've
been having a hard time and what I'd really love
to do is get back to a place where we
feel good around each other, that feels more appealing to
most people. The other thing, and I wrote a piece
(25:14):
about this for Parent Data as well, is that it
can often feel like one the person who wants to
have this kind of a check in is really in
an agency undermining position of like, you need to do this, right,
I'm so unhappy you need to do this. And what
happens when we are told that we absolutely have to
do something, whether it's by our parents, so this is
(25:36):
also good advice for our teens and toddlers or by
our partners, is that there's this thing that psychologists calls
psychological reactants, which is we don't want other people to
tell us what to do. We want to have agency.
This is a fundamental human drive. And so if we
invite our partner and we do it in a way
that really respects their autonomy, that sort of encourages them
(25:59):
to have agency. It's also a lot more likely. So,
for example, I have been unhappy in this relationship, I
would like to do something, whether it's couple's therapy or
just dedicating sometime each week to working on our relationship.
What do you think? How would you want to do it?
Are there ways that would be more appealing to you
and other ways that would be less appealing to you.
(26:20):
I have lots of ideas. Here are some What kind
of ideas do you have that would help us to
work on this relationship that seems important to both of us,
So to make it positive, to give the other person agency,
and to offer lots of different options so that people
don't feel backed into a corner. Because when we feel
backed into a corner, that's when we get resistant.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So if we think about the kind of pieces of
what sort of hard after childbirth, there's the initial kind
of sleep deprivation newborn stage, which is I think hard,
partly just because you're tired, but is also somewhat temporary,
and I think there are some practical things that one
(27:05):
can do that might help that part of this. Then
there's this other piece, which continues basically forever, where you
may not agree with your partner about how to parent,
and I think that's an ongoing source of tension, and
it's a place where often like this is the thing
we care most about in the world, and neither of
(27:28):
us have any idea.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
What we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's like a sort of characteristic of parenting.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Like I could not be more engaged in wanting to
do this right, and I just am lost in a
sea of the Internet and whatever, and I.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Don't know the right choice.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
And if you don't agree with me, if we're both
just swimming in an aimless pool of you know, information,
maybe we can kind of come together to put something.
But if I have a strong idea of come to
sort of think the right way to discipline is X,
and my partner's idea is the right way to a
discipline is why.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
And like those are not the same.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Is there a more focused way we could try to
work through that kind of specific conflict as opposed to
the general like we're tired and everybody feels busy.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Conflict.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yes, So it's a great question, and I just I
will say every time I think about those early years.
So I have three kids, so I went through early
years three times. I was thinking, I don't even remember
what I was fighting about with my husband at three am.
I just knew that he was wrong and I was furious.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
There was definitely a rock and play sleeper fight that
I'm still pretty mad about, but I don't remember who
was on what side, or that thing was eventually recalled.
I don't think that was the source of but I'm
definitely I'm still pretty mad.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yeah, holding resentment totally, totally. Yeah, those middle of the
night fights, It's hard to remember the details, but oh
there was fury anyway. But to your point that you
know we care the most, I don't want to say
we care the most. Who knows, but like, we care
a whole lot about our kids, and often so to
(29:01):
our partners. We hope, and we don't always see eye
to eye, and that's kind of the nature of parenting
for everyone, because we don't partner up with ourselves, so
invariably we will have differences, and sometimes the differences are
small enough that it's not so difficult to bridge them.
But sometimes the differences are really big and A common
one that I see, and this is kind of a
(29:22):
broad difference, but I think it comes up in a
lot of ways, is like you have one parent who's
really more into like discipline, like we need to set
for boundaries and say no, and you know, really invite
our children to know that there's like a hierarchy and
there's you know, respect needs to be important and following
the rules needs to be important. And then one parent
who leads with like warmth and love, who really like,
(29:43):
at the end of the day, all that really matters
to me is that my child feels connected and accepted
and loved in this unconditional way. And so you can
have these differences that really bump up against one another
and lots of different situations like it could be sleep training,
it could be body training, it could be you know,
the teenager didn't do their homework, and how do you
(30:03):
respond to that. So one of the things that I
think is important is to start with an understanding conversation
before you ever get to problem solving, to really appreciate
like why it's important to each person and to really
try in the listener mode of hearing your partner explain
why whatever the way that they prefer to do is
important to them, why that matters to them, Like what
(30:25):
is the function of that? And try as hard as
you can to listen with an open mind. Because the
next thing that I'll say that I know feels untrue
when you're sort of in the midst of a fight
with somebody who you disagree with, is that the differences
between the two of you are probably more of a
strength than you realize. And the example that I that
I gave of the disciplining versus warmth really gets born
(30:46):
out in the literature on rearing children, which is, you know,
it's not great to be an authoritarian parent, and it's
not great to be a permissive parent. So if you
have somebody who leads extremely with discipline, that's more authoritarian,
and if you have somebody who leads on the extra
damside with love, that can really equate to permissiveness. And
what we know is the best kind of parenting is
this combined authoritative like a lot of discipline and a
(31:09):
lot of love the both. And so if you have
a set of parents that leans to one side each
each partner leans heavily to one side. Actually together, if
they can come together, that's like the best way to
do it. And that's often the case, is that the
differences that exist between the two of you, they feel
like they're in opposition, but actually they're probably quite complimentary.
(31:31):
And so if you can get to that place of
seeing you know, the way that you do it really
drives me crazy, but actually it's a nice counterbalance for
the way that I might do it. And can we
rather than pull to the polls away from each other,
can we come together in a way that takes the
best of each side. And that is a hard thing
to do when you're in the fight. But if you
can sort of calm your a magdalah, get to a
(31:53):
place where you're being able to be more open and
receptive to how somebody does things differently and invite them
right as an invitation with lots of options to do
the same with you, so that you can pull the
best from each perspective, each approach, that can really land
you in a much stronger healthier place relationally but also
as parents.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I like that it seems hard, it's hard to do.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
In the moment. Sometimes it's easier with a therapist in
the office.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
More parent data, including a lightning round about common relationship
challenges and how to overcome them after the break. So, yeah,
(32:54):
we're going to do a lightning round at the end,
which I'm guessing will not be as lightning as I
always hope.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But before we.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Do that, someone comes and they say, you know, I'm
seven months pregnant.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
It's our first kid.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
I want you to tell me, like the three or
four things I should do now to prepare such that
I have the best chance of not ending up in
a lot of conflict with my partner post kid.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Well, some of the things are our habits that we
already talked about. So one is start a practice of
having a relationship check in once a week. It doesn't
have to be too long. It can be, you know,
fifteen minutes if there's nothing going on, then reinforce what's
going well, that's great. And then one time per week
(33:48):
where you do something that is fun that is just
you guys enjoying one another. The second thing I'll say
is create a network of support. So one of the
really important pieces of science that I think doesn't get
talked about enough. Although Emily I'm so grateful that you
talk about it is like this idea of alloparenting. We
are not actually evolved to rear children alone. We are
(34:10):
evolved to rear children in community. And so you have
your partner, but two people is not enough to rear children.
They are real time and energy suckers, those little suckers.
And they're awesome, they're beautiful, we love them. They are exhausting.
And so as much as you can create a support network,
join a class even in advance of, you know, people
preparing to have babies, because then you know, if you
(34:33):
do around the same time, then you'll have a friend
in the middle of the night to text with while
you're nursing or feeding the baby or changing their diaper.
And I will say, just as somebody who had children
very far away from extended family, that this is possible
to do even if you don't have family nearby, and
it's important to do just for sanity's sake. And you know,
(34:54):
professional caregivers like daycares like those are all great resources
to spiritual classes, spiritual communities classes. So there's so many
different ways to really extend your social support network. And
then the third thing, and this is something I write
about in my book about working parenthood is try to
think about the things that are less important that you're
willing to do less of during the more intense times
(35:16):
in the early months of parenting. So this is the
idea of subtracting. So our temptation as humans and as
parents is like, add more more and more stuff to
my schedule, to my closet, to you know, enrich myself.
But it is a very taxing thing to have a
very young baby and think about where you can let
go a little bit cleaning your house, you know, stop
(35:38):
doing regular meetings that are not important. What can you
give on just to give yourself a little bit more
time to take a nap or stare at a wall,
or you know, get a little bit bit of a break.
Because it is so taxing, and all of those things
that are good for our mental health that sort of
reduce the pressure on us as individuals can also be
(35:58):
good for our relationship. We want to nurture our relationship.
In order to do that, we need to nurture ourselves. Okay,
you ready for the lightning around I am, but can
I can I pause and ask you a question? Is
just totally wondering because what differences exist between you and
your husband that you've had to navigate and how did
you navigate those? Listeners are wanting to know, Emily, So.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
My husband is more is probably stricter than I am.
He's much better at holding a consistent line. And that's
something that we I think have sort of come come
together on. But it's still true that like, I'm much more,
(36:45):
I'm much more susceptible to whining and to you know,
like giving in and feeling sort.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Of bad for various things.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
And we've kind of we've and I think part of
what happens there is like then I give too much
of myself And he's like, why did you give in
on that?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Like that?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
You know you need more, You would have more energy
if you hadn't given and on that, and there was
no reason to give in on that. And I think
sort of navigating that and figuring out like how much
am I doing because I want to?
Speaker 3 (37:16):
And how much am I doing.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Because I I think we should And then therefore I
think we should split it. I think that's you know,
I would tell some of these people it's hard to
have two people try to lean into their professional lives
at the same time, and you know, just recognizing it.
I think sometimes for me it's just good to recognize,
like it's hard to have two people trying to kill
(37:38):
it at work simultaneously and that that's just sometimes that's
just hard.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, it's much easier because the kids are bigger now.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah, oh yeah, but still, And I don't know if
you feel this way. Every time there's like a snow day,
it's like a race to between me and your husbands,
like meetings.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Thinking about last week's snow day, there was no snow,
but nevertheless there was also no school, and you know,
the and the the babysitter at the flu and so
like and he you know, my husband doesn't work, and
I work more locally than he does, and so you know,
splitting that up is just like one of my very
close friends when we had our first kid, she told me, like,
(38:18):
the most important thing is to decide on, like categorically,
who's going to take over if the nanny is sick
on like, and so think in advance about like what
are the sets of things that are most that are
sort of taking precedent, So like we both teach, and
so there was this sort of idea like, okay, if
you are teaching, that wins, and like you have to
(38:39):
be in the classroom and so the other person has
to drop things, and that's continued to be something I
think is pretty important is to just decide if you're
both going to have a job, like which pieces of
the job.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Are more important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Because in the morning, everybody's meetings are the most important.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. But there are
days where you probably both have to teach. There are
days where yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
It's just and then my kids are watching television in
the back of my classroom.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Yeah. And I actually think that that's an important thing
for parents of kids of any age, that when you
neglect your kids, it feels terrible in the moment, but
often they're fine, Like usually they're in a place where
they're safe, or they're bored where they're safe and they're
bored or they're safe and they're having a great time
(39:25):
on a screen and you feel kind of guilty, but
it's fine. And I think we're so hard on ourselves,
so I think a whole lot of self compassion in
those moments is useful. And then remembering that our kids
do not need to be entertained by us twenty four
to seven, and in fact, that's not very good for them.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Right, That is so true.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
The other source of conflict in my house is the
dishwasher because, like, I know, I talk about this a lot,
but like, my husband is really really good at loading
the dishwasher and he thinks a lot about it, and
I don't care about loading the dishwasher and I just
throw things in at random and.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
He doesn't. He has to rearrange in them.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
So there's interesting research showing that dishwasher loading is one
of the common areas of conflict for couples. It's very funny.
It comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room.
There's often one person who's very disciplined about how a
dishwasher gets loaded, and when like you who doesn't care
as much and would like to just be efficient with
their time, and it creates friction, and I think it's
(40:32):
it's there's this great line for one of my favorite
favorite marital researchers, because I'm the kind of person who
has such things where the researcher says, most crimes of
the heart are misdemeanors, and I always think about that
of like the small things can really feel quite explosive.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Somebody once, I posted a picture of my dishwasher once,
and somebody comment on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
In every marriage, there's one person.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Who loads the dishwasher like a Swiss engineer and one
person who loads it like a raccoon on meth.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And you're the second. That's true. On the second one.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Raccoon, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Uh Okay, here's some questions for you.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
How do I stop myself from micromanaging my partner's relationship
with the baby like you're doing it wrong?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Well, I do think that some of the things that
we talked about earlier pertain here in terms of when
we try to micromanage, we're actually doing the opposite of
what we intend to do. What we want to do
is we want to protect relationships and make things better.
But because of this idea of psychological reactans where people
don't like to be controlled, we create more distance between
(41:41):
us and the person who we are trying to control.
We also create less influence. Right, the more we try
to control, the less influence we have. And so by
lightening up on the efforts to control and instead sort
of saying you know it bothers me but of course
it's up to you. It's your call. This is like
a good mantra. Ultimately it's your call, right. This recognition
(42:04):
that every person has an agency true about our children too,
and we have more influence when we honor that when
we say it is your call. And there are probably
some ways that that works for you that I'm not seeing.
But can I tell you how it makes me feel?
Or can I tell you my concerns? And this is
another strategy of asking permission to share your view, and
(42:29):
if the other person is willing to hear it and
they say, sure, you can tell me, then it actually
increases the likelihood that they'll be open to it. And
if they're not, then you get to save your breath.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
I also think I will just add something here, which
is I think when you are especially early on, even
very small things can seem like you must do them
a particular way. And so what I like about that
frame is I think some of the time, if you
get ready to say that and then you sort of
say it in your head, like you know. A thing
(43:01):
I feel really strongly about is that you use three
wipes when you're you doing the diaper, and not too
when you sort of say that in your head, like, well, actually,
I can't really with a stray face say that out
loud to another person. I think it helps us recognize
some things are important and do deserve saying like it's
really important to me that our kids, you know, sit
(43:22):
at the table if that's.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Really important to you, or it's really important to me.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
That you know, we that our kid has a bath
or whatever.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
Is the thing that some things might be very important
to you and some things it cannot be.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Every hill is a hill that you most that you
want to die on.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
I think that point deserves extra emphasis because, especially in
the early phases of parenting, when you have a teeny
tiny infant, everything feels so important. But if you're micromanaging
your partner on everything, you're really going to lose your
influence and your credibility. So you have to sort of
manage internally this dialogue of well, that's going to be
(43:58):
a problem, and that's going to be a problem. That's
going to be from so that the things that really
matter can matter, because if everything matters, then nothing matters, right,
It just turns into nagging, which is like the Charlie
Brown cartoon of like Wow, Wow, wow, and your partner's
not going to hear anything other than my partner's really annoying.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
So one of the things that comes up again sort
of in very early parenting, particularly if one person is home,
like on leave, the question of you know, my partner
is at work. They come back every day they're exhausted
at the end of the day and it feels like, well,
they've been out working and I've just been here. But
of course I'm also exhausted because babies are exhausting. And
how do we navigate this first moment of you know,
(44:40):
we are both very tired and feel that we are
deserving of rest, but no rest is to be had.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Yeah, this is something to negotiate ahead of time, not
necessarily like before you have a baby, but like before
that moment arrives, because in that moment, everyone is feeling
so depleted. And I think what's important to recognize is
that our own pain feels bigger than the other person's pain,
and we feel pretty certain in those moments that it
(45:08):
is bigger, Right Like, if I've been with the baby
all day, then I am pretty sure that my partner
who got to read emails from start to finish and
go to the bathroom alone. Has had an easier day,
But my partner may have had meeting after meeting with
his crappy you know, micromanagy difficult boss and also is
sleep deprived and had to try to pretend that he
(45:31):
had all cylinders firing neurologically all day long, and all
he wants to do is come home and just like
sit without somebody telling him what to do. And he
feels like, you know, the baby napped, and so I
had a break to myself. So if you are both
feeling in desperate need of a break, the reality is
you are both deserving of a break. So I think
(45:53):
trying to do some understanding conversation and some problem solving
in advance of the moment, recognizing that that moment is
really a difficult one for both people and that you're
both absolutely you know, you come by it rightly. You
both deserve a little bit of a break, and wondering
how you can do that, And there's lots of different
ways to problem solve that, Like you know, one is
(46:15):
to outsource it, to actually get some help so that
you both can get a break, maybe even at the
same time, maybe even together, Like it could just be
napping together, which is lovely if you can get it.
But there could be other ways to problem solve it too,
like you know, turn taking, so you know, perhaps the
partner who's coming home from work just stays in their
(46:35):
car for fifteen minutes so that they can have some
quiet time, and then when they come in they're ready
to take the baby so that the partner who's been
home with the baby all day can get a well
deserved break. This is a little bit later in life example,
but my husband and I both really are desperate to
get a little bit of work done on Sundays, and
so we divide the day. He gets an hour in
the morning, I get an hour in the afternoon. It
(46:57):
is like a precious hour for each of us and
we try to honor it and do that turn taking
with what with whoever doesn't have the work time, taking
the three kids for an hour away from the parent
who's working. So there are ways to negotiate it, and
there's ways to get help. It is hard to do
that kind of thinking in the moment where you're just
desperate for the break, but in that moment, just to
(47:20):
recognize that the other person is not a villain They're
not trying to screw you over. They're probably also just
extremely fatigued and struggling as well.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
Okay, so I want to end with sex as one does,
because I think this is a sort of.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
A piece of all.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Of this which comes up a lot in early parenting,
which is, you know, initially for physical reasons and then
for a bunch of other reasons, like people are not
having sex as much, and we know parents have less sex,
and we know that many people that everybody, but many
people find that to be an important part of their
relationship and important part of their life, of their life.
(48:02):
How does one navigate mismatched post baby sex drive.
Speaker 5 (48:09):
It's a really hard one for a lot of reasons.
And I think one of the things that can happen
is that, for example, the partner who who had the
child physically and is now nursing is just touched out
and they're giving a lot of physical warmth and affection
to the baby, and the partner who did not give
(48:30):
birth and who is not nursing is feeling kind of neglected.
And that isn't you know, the partner who had the
baby's fault. They're exhausted and depleted, but it is a
very painful thing to feel neglected by your partner. And
so what can often happen is that the partner who
feels neglected is starts to sort of become more insistent,
and then the partner who's nursing around the clock and
(48:53):
just is touched out feels like yet another thing. And
you can feed and clothe yourselves and yourself so I
don't really want to meet your needs right now, and
you're being quite insensitive to me. So there's like this
this real tension. So I think part of it is
to just recognize that when one person is wanting more
intimacy than the other, again, it's not a villainous, you know,
(49:17):
malevolent desire. It's a desire to connect. You know, if
people are familiar with this idea of the five love languages,
one of them is physical intimacy, and for a lot
of people that is a really really important way to connect.
And so if you have one person who's like that
one that love language is not on the table right
now because it's being consumed by the baby, then that
(49:37):
can really leave the person who really wants to connect
that way feeling unloved. And that that's a very painful
place to be. So I think just starting from a
compassionate understanding point of view, and then you can move
to some of the negotiations the problem solving, and the
problem solving is not easy. And so what I do
want to say, and I say this so often in
couples therapy, is that there is no good, simple solution
(49:59):
to a comp heated problem. And if you think that
there is one, if you anytime you hear yourself say
if you would only just that's probably the preamble to
a simple solution. And it is probably a complicated problem.
And your partner is probably going to resist that kind
of solution because usually it's something that they're supposed to
do that doesn't feel so simple for them, even if
it feels simple for you. And so I think trying
(50:22):
to think in more nuanced ways of like, you have
needs and I have needs, and we're both really tapped
out and pulled in so many different directions, and so
what's a way that we can get a little bit
better without expecting to resolve anything perfectly for the time being. So,
how can I if it's physical affection that you're looking
for and sex really doesn't feel on the table because
(50:44):
I'm still healing from delivery. Then you know what other
kinds of ways of connecting physically would be positive, even
if they're not exactly what you're looking for. If space
is what you need, and you know care and sort
of not touching is what you need, what's the way
that I can can give you that without totally giving
up on our connection entirely, and so finding these sort
(51:06):
of middle ground solutions that are imperfect and that recognize
that it's a complicated problem to solve this difference in
desire to connect intimately and doing it really compassionately I
think is so important because the tendency, I think is
to really vilify one another because we're feeling so hurt.
It's this like instinctual you hurt me, I'm going to
(51:27):
hurt you back, and instead of coming together, which is
what both people tend to want, it sort of pulls
you further apart.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I love this, Yale. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
I think there's a really a tremendous amount in this
conversation that people will benefit from.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I always learned from you, so thanks for moving here.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Thank you. I always love chatting with you.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Parent data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts
on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to support
the show, become a subscriber to the parent Data newsletter
at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts on
everything to do with parents and data to help you
(52:35):
make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, you can
read all of the l's contributions to parent Data, including
her research on how to set boundaries with other adults. Spoiler,
it's more productive than just cutting your mother in law
out of your life. At parentdata dot org, there are
a lot of ways you can help people find out
about us. Leave a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts,
(52:57):
Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.
Debate your mother in law about the merits of something
parents do now that is totally different.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
From what she did.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
Plose the story to your Instagram, debunking a panic headline
of your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too.
Rite penelpe right, mam, We'll see you next time.
So tomorrow, so Emily, tell me about this subreddit.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Okay, so this subreddit is called our slash Beyond the Bump,
and I have to say I'm a little obsessed with it.
I have a very kind of love hate relationship. As
far as subreddits about pregnancy and parenting go. This one's
not for like regular moms. This one's for like cool moms.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Is the one for regular moms, just like the Bump.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well that's that's an app actually, Okay, No, like the
regular one is like our slash Pregnancy or our slash
Toddlers or whatever. But this one is like, you know,
moms who are ready to like really engage in like
real talk about what it's really like. And what that
amounts to is these really kind of intense emotional confessionals
(00:56):
about things that have been really hard. And I think
that people feel like they can kind of hide behind
the anonymy of Reddit and engage in this community of
people who are like here for it, and they end
up talking about really traumatic birth experiences and people will
jump in and like hold them and share theirs or
(01:20):
you know, like those those can be pretty powerful. But
then also people are like going off on their mother
in laws, and you know, my mother in law like
fed my kid at the wrong time and like did
this thing that wasn't really that unsafe, but it was
like a little unsafe. Should I cut her out of
my life?
Speaker 4 (01:38):
My mother in law gave my child a honey nut cheerio.
Should I revoke her access forever or just for a year?
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Like, I don't know how many people are just able
to give up babysitters like this. But all right, So
that's our slash beyond the Bump, and I find myself
quite moved by it and also really kind of repelled it.
But then there is the weekly pinned thread where people
complain about their partners, and if you actually search in
(02:11):
the little search bar for hate plus husband, you get
pages and pages of posts with the title of I
hate my husband. You guys, I really think I hate
my husband? Why do I hate my husband? Is it
normal to hate my husband this much? After having a baby?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Since having a baby, I hate my husband. I think
I hate my husband. I'm starting to hate my husband.
I hate my husband. PSA, I hate your husband. Well
that's different.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Being coming a mother taught me how to love myself,
and now I hate my husband.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, there are a lot of marriages that are really
on the brink, Like you'd almost think that they're all
on the brink by going to this subreddit and it's
like these are the posts like every other day, and
you know, like I said, the anonymity of it definitely
opens people up, and I think that it's kind of
nice that there's a space for that. I can't quite
(03:04):
tell if this is kind of for clout or you know,
kind of misery loves company, or if everyone here is
really really struggling. And you know, it's the Internet, so
it's probably a combination of both.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
My husband is sleeping and I hate him.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Okay, I relate to that. This is parent data. I'm
Emily Oster.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Reddit has a tendency to exacerbate real world problems, but
that doesn't mean that these problems are not real.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And when you look at the data, it is true.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
That after people have kids, marital satisfaction declines. Having a
baby drastically changes everything in your partnership that was familiar,
that was predictable, that you got used to, and some
of those are the reasons you got into their relationship
in the first place. That's the reality of having kids,
and as much as we love our kids, it can
(04:06):
be an incredible shock to the system. There were dates, nights,
there were lazy Sunday mornings in bed, and now there
are feedings and diaper changes, feeling touched out, packing school
lunches the night before or at five point forty five
in the morning. To quote Ethan Hawke's character from before Sunset,
we used to be in love. Now we're roommates who
(04:26):
run a daycare together. There are things that bring us
together in ways we could not imagine a crazy amount
of shared love. But there's also a crazy amount of
shared details and shared responsibilities and.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Less money and more work. And it's a.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Tall order to ask your relationship to just adapt to
something like that. A lot of couples, most couples struggle,
and they find themselves on beyond the bump, explaining that
their husband's sleeping and they hate them. But going to
Reddit is actually not the best place to solve these problems,
and for many, probably most couples, this issue is not hopeless.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And that's where today's guest comes in. Doctor Ya L.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Schoenbrun is a clinical psychologist and author, a researcher who
focuses on the science and data behind healthier, happier relationships,
and she's here to babyproof your relationship. In this conversation,
we talk about the kinds of conversations couples need to
be willing to have to actually be heard.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
We talk about the difference between.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Understanding conversations and problem solving conversations. We also talk about
when is a good time to have hard conversations and
when isn't, notably when you are angry and tired.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We talk about how to babyproof your relationship.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Before the baby arrives, and then we get into some
lightning round specific issues about what can strain couples, what
can overcome the strain, and how we can try to
show up as our best selves not just for our kids,
but for each other. And yes, if you fall along
in my marriage, we will be discussing the conflict over
the dishwasher loading after the break. Doctor Yeah, Elle shoon Brun,
(06:23):
Doctor yeah, l Shoon Brun. Thanks for being here again.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
So excited to join you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
I'm very excited to talk about everybody's favorite topic, which
is that you will hate your partner.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
After you have children.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
If there's one like accepted truth about marriage and child marrying.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
It's that after kids, your partner is a loser.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
So you can see that, you know, from people's everyday
experience from Reddit, but also we see this in the data.
So actually there is a fair amount of data showing
the marital happiness declines when people have kids, especially in
the first year.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But even though people like to talk about this and
make jokes about it, actually it's not great.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
And the goal here is to give people some tips
to make that happen less or at least talk about
why it happens.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So we're going to do that.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
We're going to be productive and not just talk about Wait,
let's start. Do you have a partner?
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I do.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
I have a husband?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
You have a husband, and what can you just just
so we set the stage, can you just.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Tell me one thing that he does that annoys you?
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Oh? Why do I begin? No, I'm just kidding, he is.
I actually was just recently talking to a marital researcher
who had this lovely metaphor of some of us are
ferns who need a whole lot of watering. We're like rainforests,
and we just need so much attention, right in the
form of watering in the form of attention, and so
(07:57):
I am definitely a fern and he is more of
a succulent, so a difference, and so he's kind of
off doing his thing, and I really need a whole
lot of attention, especially if I'm sort of putting out
energy in caring for the kids and caring for my
patients and doing my writing work. And what he needs
is like independent time to because he's a classic introvert.
(08:18):
So it annoys me that when he's stressed he needs
time away.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
What is one thing you really like about him?
Speaker 5 (08:27):
So this is a thing that so in addition to
my background as a researcher, and I also do marital
treatment a lot. And one of the things I often
think about is that any couple can make strides, can
make gains if they are willing to work on it.
So he is always willing to work on things with me,
and I think that is so critical. And it's kind
of like a relational growth mindset that it almost doesn't
(08:48):
matter where you begin, so long as you have a
partner who's willing to collaborate with you and getting to
a place that works better for the both of you.
Recognizing that it will never be perfect, and he is
definitely in that camp.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
I love that. I was going to go in like
a much more like specific direction with mine. Yours are
much better.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
I was going to be like, I like the way
he loads the dishwasher, but I don't like it. I
don't like did he snores? Those are yeah?
Speaker 5 (09:16):
No, I like, I like your snoring thing. And that
actually comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room too,
because it causes people to sleep in separate beds, which
causes a lot more distance because they don't have that
time together. How do you guys handle the snoring? It is?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Actually it doesn't most of the time. I can just
I just sleep through it. Although in this in the
spirit of growth mindset, I did suggest that we get
some breathewrte strips and he said he would consider that,
and so that that's like the next growth mindset experience.
But actually, most of the time, I just he's not
that bad, so you do kind of get used to it.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
I think that that is also a good attitude and
has some growth mindset embodied in it.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Growth mindset. That's the theme for today. Okay, so let's
start with you. You know you've written some stuff for
us on this, and I want to sort of talk
through some of these productive approaches that people can take
to try to address these declines.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But let's just start with, like, what do you see
you treat people on this?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Is?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
What is the common pattern of sort of post child
bearing marital stuff?
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, well so is it is one of these really
common research findings. And it's certainly, as you said, something
we see a lot on Reddit, we see articles about
it that there is a precipitous drop in marital satisfaction
after babies enter the scene. The thing that I wrote
one piece about for parent Data that I think isn't
important finding is that not all couples go through this
(10:48):
precipitous drop, and so you're not doomed. If you're thinking
about having children, your marriage is not doomed. And if
you've had a precipitous drop, your marriage is also not doomed.
So there's lots of variability, and we can look at
the averages and there is an average job. But some couples,
and in fact the many couples do just find they're
sort of a stressful period, but they come together and
(11:10):
they cope as collaborators and that's great, and for a
lot of folks that change, those new stressors lack of sleep,
more demands on us really cause a fracturing. And so
one of the things to think about is before you
have kids to try to invest some time and energy
(11:30):
in building up your relationship or in preparing for the
transition as collaborators. And so a lot of the interventions
that have been tested with this transition of partnership to
co parents look at intervening in the lead up, so
helping people to strengthen the relationship before kids and then
(11:51):
helping them to figure out how to cope better after
the arrival of kids. And so there are a variety
of ways to intervene in both time pere, So can.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
We talk about the intervening before And you know, I
think is as sort of scientists and researchers, we talk
about this idea like we're going to intervene, but what
does that mean practically? Like what do they do in
these interventions and how do I know they work?
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, so there are randomized interventions looking at how people
can build up skills and so what does that actually
look like? I Mean, one thing to talk about it
is like what does actual couples therapy look like when
I have a couple who comes in and is telling me,
you know, we really don't see eye to eye on
how to manage the nighttime feedings, or on who does
(12:36):
the diapers, or on who's going to make a transition
in how they navigate their work life now that we
have children to take care of. So what does that
look like? A lot of it just looks like conversations
and helping people talk things through because a lot of
people don't know how to talk things through or avoid
it because it's kind of uncomfortable. These are difficult topics
to encounter. There's a lot of anxiety about what each
(12:59):
person wants and doesn't want. Sometimes there's a history of
conflict that people are worried about, kind of tripping up
and setting off a minefield. And so in the protected
environment of a couple's therapy room, you have somebody who's
kind of a mediator, who can structure things, who can
make sure that each person gets heard and feels heard.
And then there's some problem solving, collaborative problem solving, so
(13:22):
one of the I can give some of the communication
tips that are really helpful for a lot of couples.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
If that's yeah, I think that would be I think
it'll be useful.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, So in the couple's Therapy one oh one Communication Tips.
One of the most basic things that I tell people
is that we want to separate conversations into two distinct types.
So one is an understanding conversation, where the goal is
to have each person feel a bit better understood as
a speaker and to have each listener understand a little
bit better. And so the goal of an understanding conversation
(13:51):
is to improve understanding. The second kind of conversation is
a problem solving conversation, where the goal is to solve
a problem or come to a decision together or negotiate something.
And that one is something that people just kind of understand.
And actually, when it comes to having new children, we
almost always want to do the problem solving, want to
fix it, Like we're exhausted. There's so many stressors we
(14:13):
need to figure out, like what the baby's going to eat,
who's going to take care of it? You know what
that rash is, And so we just drop into default
mode of like problem solving is what we need to do.
But often what we what would actually be more effective
is to do understanding first, and we want to separate
them out because when one person is trying to have
an understanding conversation of like, I'm super stressed out this
(14:35):
exema on the baby is really freaking me out because
I'm worried it's going to lead to something different, and
the other person steps in and says, well, you need
to call the doctor immediately, then the anxiety doesn't get addressed.
And so by making suret and really clarifying each person
what kind of a conversation do I want to have,
we can kind of align on the communication goals. And
when people are aligned on communication goals, I can think
(14:57):
of like it's a rowboat, Like you can row in
the same direction. If you're not aligned, you're rowing in
different directions and you're just kind of going in circles
and it's super frustrating for both people.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
There's an interesting parallel to the kinds of conversations one
we'll eventually have with a teenager, where this distinction between like,
what are you hoping to get out of this conversation
and do you just want me to listen and hear
what you're saying, or do you want me to help
you fix it? Like, sometimes I will start conversations with
(15:27):
the teenager like is this a situation in which you're
looking for advice or do you just want me to
hear what you're saying, And by like voicing that at
the top, it's like, Okay, which conversation are we hoping
to have? Because if I'm trying to have the conversation
with my partner, I'm just like I'm so tired and
I'm exhausted, and the baby's pooping every twenty three times
(15:49):
in the middle of the night, and like I just
feel like crap, And you just want them to be like, wow, yeah,
that's a lot of poop.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I hear that you.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Don't like that much poop, And then they're like, well,
here are some tips I read on the internet about
how to get your baby to poopless.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Like that's not home.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Yeah, it's so it feels invalidating for the person who
just wants the understanding. And so the common example that
I give to couples that I work with is if
I had a really crappy day in office and I
go home and I tell my husband, oh, I just
feel like I'm not a good therapist or not a
good researcher, not a good writer. And he says, well,
you've been saying that a lot lately. Maybe you should
go get some more training or supervision or consultation. And
(16:27):
I was just looking for understanding of like, you poor thing,
but you're so great, I'm going to feel criticized, right,
And then I tell him, oh, you're such an unsupportive partner.
And he had come in trying to be helpful and
thoughtful and listening and responsive, and I'm telling him he's
a crappy partner. Now he feels criticized and invalidated. And
so here's this conversation where we both entered into this
(16:48):
space with good intentions, and both people are feeling really rotten.
And it is true, Emily, to your point that a
very similar kind of dynamic can happen with our kids,
It can happen with work colleagues, can happen with good
friends and family members. So this distinction of what kind
of a conversation do I want to have is one
that's really helpful in all sorts of relationships, and definitely
(17:09):
in our partnerships, just to have that sense of, you know,
if I know in advance, what kind of a conversation
I'm looking for. Can I ask for it from the
outset so that we don't get off on the wrong track.
Or if in the middle of a conversation, I'm noticing
that I'm feeling like this isn't going quite right and
I'm not aligning and I'm getting kind of frustrated, can
I sort of point out, Hey, I think I'm looking
(17:30):
for this kind of conversation, and you're maybe assuming that
I want that kind of conversation. Can we negotiate even
what kind of conversation we're having and maybe start in
one place, start by having an understanding conversation before we
move to the problem solving. And I will say, just
as a quick tip, it is almost always useful to
do the understanding conversation first before you do the problem solving,
even if it's very obvious that you want to do
(17:52):
the problem solving, even if it feels pretty straightforward, just
to do a quick little understanding, just so that you
make sure a you're both ready to solve a pro
that you're solving the same problem, or see that you're
solving the same parts of the same problem. Because often
problems that seem really obvious and simple have multiple parts,
and different parts matter to each of you. And so
(18:13):
if you can just sort of have that understanding piece
first so that you align on what it is and
how it is that you're going to do the problem solving,
that can make things go so much more smoothly.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Some of this is about practice and habit, and I
think that's you know, the sort of discussion about like
why would you do this before you have a baby.
There will be a moment after you have the baby
when you are tired, and it is not a time
that changing your habits and how you interact with someone
is cognitively challenging. And when we are asleep deprived, we
(18:47):
are not as up for cognitive challenges. And so this
sort of there's a little bit of a of a
kind of push. I would say, people say, well, everything
is going, everything's going fine, like we really like each other,
like our marriages is great.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
But the investment in having.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
A habit to address how to have harder conversations so
you are doing that before you are exhausted. I mean
that's part of the kind of pre almost like like
pre work, right, that's the pre work before the meeting
or you do, it's the pre read you should have.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
The pre read it's the pre baby prep. No, but
it's true. I think establishing habits that you're going to
do your best to sustain, recognizing that there will be
some messiness and some adjustment that is needed once a
baby enters the scene is so important. And in fact,
one of the studies that I think is really cool
that was conducted by a researcher by the name of
(19:40):
Brian Doss compared intervention that was focused on preparing people
for parenting together and uh intervention that was really just
relationship strengthening, and they both helped people to make the
transition from being partners to being co parents. So however
you're doing it, investing in those bits of maintaining a
(20:01):
relationship can really make you more resilient in that transition,
because you are going to be more fatigue, you are
going to be more stressed out. And so if you
have these kind of and there's a number of ways
to do it. I mean, one of the things that
I really encourage people to do is to have two
real brief appointments blocked on your calendar, and one is
to do like a marital check in, like how are
(20:23):
we doing, how are you doing, what do we need
to talk about, what's come up, so that you just
have a time in your week. And there's a couple
of reasons for this. One is that it's it's you
should do.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
This always or after you have kids, like they just
generally you should have always should always have a marital
check in.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yeah, so you should always have a marital check in,
and you should always have a time on your calendar
that is time to just enjoy one another, and you know,
the enjoy one another after you have babies, maybe like
you know, ten minutes before you pass out or you know,
five minutes before you have to run in different directions
in the morning. But again, it's like the habit of like,
let's connect, let's see each other as human beings who
(20:59):
I like, you know ideally, who like each other ideally.
And the marital check in can be this opportunity or
relationship check in if you're not married, can just be
an opportunity to talk about things that have been going
on and to bring your best selves to have that conversation,
because otherwise what happens is people wait until you know
(21:20):
the lid is about to come off the boiling pot,
and at that point you know, either you're tired or
your emotions have hijacked your brain and you're not going
to be talking rationally. You're going to say things that
you don't mean. The alternative can also happen where people
don't want to talk about things, and so they avoid, avoid, avoid,
and resentment grows. And in part it's because you don't
(21:41):
want to rock the boat, or because things are already
so bad you don't want them to really fall apart.
And so having this habit of every week we do
a check in, there's a beginning to the check in,
there's an end, and then we try to pivot and
go do other things just gives you an opportunity to
not miss out on talking about things before it hits
resent or to talk about it before it hits the
(22:02):
boiling point in a more thoughtful way.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
And you would separate like the nice time we spent
together from the we're doing a marital check in. We
have like two appointments, the hard conversation or put you know,
the check in appointment and the date.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Yeah, I would, although you know I recognize and you
know I'm a mother of three, so time is limited.
So there's a couple reasons for it, you know. One
is that we sometimes like get stuck in logistics mode
and then we run out of time to have fun,
and I think or we are having fun and we
(22:36):
don't really want to talk about logistics. The other is,
if you're talking about something that's difficult, it can be
hard to pivot to just enjoying one another that said,
I do think it's nice to if you can, in
your marital check in, try to finish with something positive
of life. But here's something that I really appreciate, so
that you can do that pivot in a way that
feels positive and you don't kind of drag some of
(22:57):
the negativity along with you.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
One of the questions I get a lot from people,
you know, when you when you talk about this, it
makes a lot of sense, and I think probably there
are many people who are like, oh, that sounds that
sounds reasonable. And one of the pieces of feedback that
I get from when I talk about these related issues,
when people talk about the work that you've done, is like,
(23:23):
my partner will not want to do this, Like I
don't think I can get my partner to do this.
And actually, something someone told me once was, you know,
these kind of tools are great if you like your partner,
But I don't like my partner, and so I could
never get them to do this, and I in some
ways I thought, of course, if you're already aligned with
(23:45):
your partner, then.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Maybe you don't have to do this as much.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Somehow this feels like it would be most useful when
one person is resistant. But you know, what do you
tell people if they say, you know, I just can't
get my partner to even engage with this kind of questions,
meaning for a marital checkup, talking about our relationship going
to therapy.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
They're not on it.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, I mean so one of the interesting research findings
is that it takes couples on average six years from
the start of identifying like a significant problem before they
enter into couple's therapy. And that's not surprising a because
people don't have a whole lot of time or resources,
and also there's usually half of a couple that isn't
particularly interested in couples therapy. But once people get there,
(24:30):
there's so much value. And so I do think it's
helpful to just talk about, like what to set approach goals.
So one of the things that we know from psychological
research is that when we set avoid in schools of like,
you know, I'm really unhappy and I don't want to leave.
I don't want to divorce you, so you better go
to couple's therapy with me is not a particularly warm invite, right.
(24:53):
It feels controlling, It feels like an ultimatum. It doesn't
feel particularly appealing to most people to receive an inmity
in that way, whereas if you say, you know, we've
been having a hard time and what I'd really love
to do is get back to a place where we
feel good around each other, that feels more appealing to
most people. The other thing, and I wrote a piece
(25:14):
about this for Parent Data as well, is that it
can often feel like one the person who wants to
have this kind of a check in is really in
an agency undermining position of like, you need to do this, right,
I'm so unhappy you need to do this. And what
happens when we are told that we absolutely have to
do something, whether it's by our parents, so this is
(25:36):
also good advice for our teens and toddlers or by
our partners, is that there's this thing that psychologists calls
psychological reactants, which is we don't want other people to
tell us what to do. We want to have agency.
This is a fundamental human drive. And so if we
invite our partner and we do it in a way
that really respects their autonomy, that sort of encourages them
(25:59):
to have agency. It's also a lot more likely. So,
for example, I have been unhappy in this relationship, I
would like to do something, whether it's couple's therapy or
just dedicating sometime each week to working on our relationship.
What do you think? How would you want to do it?
Are there ways that would be more appealing to you
and other ways that would be less appealing to you.
(26:20):
I have lots of ideas. Here are some What kind
of ideas do you have that would help us to
work on this relationship that seems important to both of us,
So to make it positive, to give the other person agency,
and to offer lots of different options so that people
don't feel backed into a corner. Because when we feel
backed into a corner, that's when we get resistant.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So if we think about the kind of pieces of
what sort of hard after childbirth, there's the initial kind
of sleep deprivation newborn stage, which is I think hard,
partly just because you're tired, but is also somewhat temporary,
and I think there are some practical things that one
(27:05):
can do that might help that part of this. Then
there's this other piece, which continues basically forever, where you
may not agree with your partner about how to parent,
and I think that's an ongoing source of tension, and
it's a place where often like this is the thing
we care most about in the world, and neither of
(27:28):
us have any idea.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
What we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's like a sort of characteristic of parenting.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Like I could not be more engaged in wanting to
do this right, and I just am lost in a
sea of the Internet and whatever, and I.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Don't know the right choice.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
And if you don't agree with me, if we're both
just swimming in an aimless pool of you know, information,
maybe we can kind of come together to put something.
But if I have a strong idea of come to
sort of think the right way to discipline is X,
and my partner's idea is the right way to a
discipline is why.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
And like those are not the same.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Is there a more focused way we could try to
work through that kind of specific conflict as opposed to
the general like we're tired and everybody feels busy.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Conflict.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yes, So it's a great question, and I just I
will say every time I think about those early years.
So I have three kids, so I went through early
years three times. I was thinking, I don't even remember
what I was fighting about with my husband at three am.
I just knew that he was wrong and I was furious.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
There was definitely a rock and play sleeper fight that
I'm still pretty mad about, but I don't remember who
was on what side, or that thing was eventually recalled.
I don't think that was the source of but I'm
definitely I'm still pretty mad.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
Yeah, holding resentment totally, totally. Yeah, those middle of the
night fights, It's hard to remember the details, but oh
there was fury anyway. But to your point that you
know we care the most, I don't want to say
we care the most. Who knows, but like, we care
a whole lot about our kids, and often so to
(29:01):
our partners. We hope, and we don't always see eye
to eye, and that's kind of the nature of parenting
for everyone, because we don't partner up with ourselves, so
invariably we will have differences, and sometimes the differences are
small enough that it's not so difficult to bridge them.
But sometimes the differences are really big and A common
one that I see, and this is kind of a
(29:22):
broad difference, but I think it comes up in a
lot of ways, is like you have one parent who's
really more into like discipline, like we need to set
for boundaries and say no, and you know, really invite
our children to know that there's like a hierarchy and
there's you know, respect needs to be important and following
the rules needs to be important. And then one parent
who leads with like warmth and love, who really like,
(29:43):
at the end of the day, all that really matters
to me is that my child feels connected and accepted
and loved in this unconditional way. And so you can
have these differences that really bump up against one another
and lots of different situations like it could be sleep training,
it could be body training, it could be you know,
the teenager didn't do their homework, and how do you
(30:03):
respond to that. So one of the things that I
think is important is to start with an understanding conversation
before you ever get to problem solving, to really appreciate
like why it's important to each person and to really
try in the listener mode of hearing your partner explain
why whatever the way that they prefer to do is
important to them, why that matters to them, Like what
(30:25):
is the function of that? And try as hard as
you can to listen with an open mind. Because the
next thing that I'll say that I know feels untrue
when you're sort of in the midst of a fight
with somebody who you disagree with, is that the differences
between the two of you are probably more of a
strength than you realize. And the example that I that
I gave of the disciplining versus warmth really gets born
(30:46):
out in the literature on rearing children, which is, you know,
it's not great to be an authoritarian parent, and it's
not great to be a permissive parent. So if you
have somebody who leads extremely with discipline, that's more authoritarian,
and if you have somebody who leads on the extra
damside with love, that can really equate to permissiveness. And
what we know is the best kind of parenting is
this combined authoritative like a lot of discipline and a
(31:09):
lot of love the both. And so if you have
a set of parents that leans to one side each
each partner leans heavily to one side. Actually together, if
they can come together, that's like the best way to
do it. And that's often the case, is that the
differences that exist between the two of you, they feel
like they're in opposition, but actually they're probably quite complimentary.
(31:31):
And so if you can get to that place of
seeing you know, the way that you do it really
drives me crazy, but actually it's a nice counterbalance for
the way that I might do it. And can we
rather than pull to the polls away from each other,
can we come together in a way that takes the
best of each side. And that is a hard thing
to do when you're in the fight. But if you
can sort of calm your a magdalah, get to a
(31:53):
place where you're being able to be more open and
receptive to how somebody does things differently and invite them
right as an invitation with lots of options to do
the same with you, so that you can pull the
best from each perspective, each approach, that can really land
you in a much stronger healthier place relationally but also
as parents.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I like that it seems hard, it's hard to do.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
In the moment. Sometimes it's easier with a therapist in
the office.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
More parent data, including a lightning round about common relationship
challenges and how to overcome them after the break. So, yeah,
(32:54):
we're going to do a lightning round at the end,
which I'm guessing will not be as lightning as I
always hope.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But before we.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Do that, someone comes and they say, you know, I'm
seven months pregnant.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
It's our first kid.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
I want you to tell me, like the three or
four things I should do now to prepare such that
I have the best chance of not ending up in
a lot of conflict with my partner post kid.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Well, some of the things are our habits that we
already talked about. So one is start a practice of
having a relationship check in once a week. It doesn't
have to be too long. It can be, you know,
fifteen minutes if there's nothing going on, then reinforce what's
going well, that's great. And then one time per week
(33:48):
where you do something that is fun that is just
you guys enjoying one another. The second thing I'll say
is create a network of support. So one of the
really important pieces of science that I think doesn't get
talked about enough. Although Emily I'm so grateful that you
talk about it is like this idea of alloparenting. We
are not actually evolved to rear children alone. We are
(34:10):
evolved to rear children in community. And so you have
your partner, but two people is not enough to rear children.
They are real time and energy suckers, those little suckers.
And they're awesome, they're beautiful, we love them. They are exhausting.
And so as much as you can create a support network,
join a class even in advance of, you know, people
preparing to have babies, because then you know, if you
(34:33):
do around the same time, then you'll have a friend
in the middle of the night to text with while
you're nursing or feeding the baby or changing their diaper.
And I will say, just as somebody who had children
very far away from extended family, that this is possible
to do even if you don't have family nearby, and
it's important to do just for sanity's sake. And you know,
(34:54):
professional caregivers like daycares like those are all great resources
to spiritual classes, spiritual communities classes. So there's so many
different ways to really extend your social support network. And
then the third thing, and this is something I write
about in my book about working parenthood is try to
think about the things that are less important that you're
willing to do less of during the more intense times
(35:16):
in the early months of parenting. So this is the
idea of subtracting. So our temptation as humans and as
parents is like, add more more and more stuff to
my schedule, to my closet, to you know, enrich myself.
But it is a very taxing thing to have a
very young baby and think about where you can let
go a little bit cleaning your house, you know, stop
(35:38):
doing regular meetings that are not important. What can you
give on just to give yourself a little bit more
time to take a nap or stare at a wall,
or you know, get a little bit bit of a break.
Because it is so taxing, and all of those things
that are good for our mental health that sort of
reduce the pressure on us as individuals can also be
(35:58):
good for our relationship. We want to nurture our relationship.
In order to do that, we need to nurture ourselves. Okay,
you ready for the lightning around I am, but can
I can I pause and ask you a question? Is
just totally wondering because what differences exist between you and
your husband that you've had to navigate and how did
you navigate those? Listeners are wanting to know, Emily, So.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
My husband is more is probably stricter than I am.
He's much better at holding a consistent line. And that's
something that we I think have sort of come come
together on. But it's still true that like, I'm much more,
(36:45):
I'm much more susceptible to whining and to you know,
like giving in and feeling sort.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Of bad for various things.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
And we've kind of we've and I think part of
what happens there is like then I give too much
of myself And he's like, why did you give in
on that?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Like that?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
You know you need more, You would have more energy
if you hadn't given and on that, and there was
no reason to give in on that. And I think
sort of navigating that and figuring out like how much
am I doing because I want to?
Speaker 3 (37:16):
And how much am I doing.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
Because I I think we should And then therefore I
think we should split it. I think that's you know,
I would tell some of these people it's hard to
have two people try to lean into their professional lives
at the same time, and you know, just recognizing it.
I think sometimes for me it's just good to recognize,
like it's hard to have two people trying to kill
(37:38):
it at work simultaneously and that that's just sometimes that's
just hard.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, it's much easier because the kids are bigger now.
Speaker 5 (37:45):
Yeah, oh yeah, but still, And I don't know if
you feel this way. Every time there's like a snow day,
it's like a race to between me and your husbands,
like meetings.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Thinking about last week's snow day, there was no snow,
but nevertheless there was also no school, and you know,
the and the the babysitter at the flu and so
like and he you know, my husband doesn't work, and
I work more locally than he does, and so you know,
splitting that up is just like one of my very
close friends when we had our first kid, she told me, like,
(38:18):
the most important thing is to decide on, like categorically,
who's going to take over if the nanny is sick
on like, and so think in advance about like what
are the sets of things that are most that are
sort of taking precedent, So like we both teach, and
so there was this sort of idea like, okay, if
you are teaching, that wins, and like you have to
(38:39):
be in the classroom and so the other person has
to drop things, and that's continued to be something I
think is pretty important is to just decide if you're
both going to have a job, like which pieces of
the job.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Are more important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Because in the morning, everybody's meetings are the most important.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. But there are
days where you probably both have to teach. There are
days where yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
It's just and then my kids are watching television in
the back of my classroom.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Yeah. And I actually think that that's an important thing
for parents of kids of any age, that when you
neglect your kids, it feels terrible in the moment, but
often they're fine, Like usually they're in a place where
they're safe, or they're bored where they're safe and they're
bored or they're safe and they're having a great time
(39:25):
on a screen and you feel kind of guilty, but
it's fine. And I think we're so hard on ourselves,
so I think a whole lot of self compassion in
those moments is useful. And then remembering that our kids
do not need to be entertained by us twenty four
to seven, and in fact, that's not very good for them.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Right, That is so true.
Speaker 4 (39:45):
The other source of conflict in my house is the
dishwasher because, like, I know, I talk about this a lot,
but like, my husband is really really good at loading
the dishwasher and he thinks a lot about it, and
I don't care about loading the dishwasher and I just
throw things in at random and.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
He doesn't. He has to rearrange in them.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
So there's interesting research showing that dishwasher loading is one
of the common areas of conflict for couples. It's very funny.
It comes up a lot in the couple's therapy room.
There's often one person who's very disciplined about how a
dishwasher gets loaded, and when like you who doesn't care
as much and would like to just be efficient with
their time, and it creates friction, and I think it's
(40:32):
it's there's this great line for one of my favorite
favorite marital researchers, because I'm the kind of person who
has such things where the researcher says, most crimes of
the heart are misdemeanors, and I always think about that
of like the small things can really feel quite explosive.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Somebody once, I posted a picture of my dishwasher once,
and somebody comment on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
In every marriage, there's one person.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
Who loads the dishwasher like a Swiss engineer and one
person who loads it like a raccoon on meth.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And you're the second. That's true. On the second one.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Raccoon, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Uh Okay, here's some questions for you.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
How do I stop myself from micromanaging my partner's relationship
with the baby like you're doing it wrong?
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Well, I do think that some of the things that
we talked about earlier pertain here in terms of when
we try to micromanage, we're actually doing the opposite of
what we intend to do. What we want to do
is we want to protect relationships and make things better.
But because of this idea of psychological reactans where people
don't like to be controlled, we create more distance between
(41:41):
us and the person who we are trying to control.
We also create less influence. Right, the more we try
to control, the less influence we have. And so by
lightening up on the efforts to control and instead sort
of saying you know it bothers me but of course
it's up to you. It's your call. This is like
a good mantra. Ultimately it's your call, right. This recognition
(42:04):
that every person has an agency true about our children too,
and we have more influence when we honor that when
we say it is your call. And there are probably
some ways that that works for you that I'm not seeing.
But can I tell you how it makes me feel?
Or can I tell you my concerns? And this is
another strategy of asking permission to share your view, and
(42:29):
if the other person is willing to hear it and
they say, sure, you can tell me, then it actually
increases the likelihood that they'll be open to it. And
if they're not, then you get to save your breath.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
I also think I will just add something here, which
is I think when you are especially early on, even
very small things can seem like you must do them
a particular way. And so what I like about that
frame is I think some of the time, if you
get ready to say that and then you sort of
say it in your head, like you know. A thing
(43:01):
I feel really strongly about is that you use three
wipes when you're you doing the diaper, and not too
when you sort of say that in your head, like, well, actually,
I can't really with a stray face say that out
loud to another person. I think it helps us recognize
some things are important and do deserve saying like it's
really important to me that our kids, you know, sit
(43:22):
at the table if that's.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Really important to you, or it's really important to me.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
That you know, we that our kid has a bath
or whatever.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
Is the thing that some things might be very important
to you and some things it cannot be.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Every hill is a hill that you most that you
want to die on.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
I think that point deserves extra emphasis because, especially in
the early phases of parenting, when you have a teeny
tiny infant, everything feels so important. But if you're micromanaging
your partner on everything, you're really going to lose your
influence and your credibility. So you have to sort of
manage internally this dialogue of well, that's going to be
(43:58):
a problem, and that's going to be a problem. That's
going to be from so that the things that really
matter can matter, because if everything matters, then nothing matters, right,
It just turns into nagging, which is like the Charlie
Brown cartoon of like Wow, Wow, wow, and your partner's
not going to hear anything other than my partner's really annoying.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
So one of the things that comes up again sort
of in very early parenting, particularly if one person is home,
like on leave, the question of you know, my partner
is at work. They come back every day they're exhausted
at the end of the day and it feels like, well,
they've been out working and I've just been here. But
of course I'm also exhausted because babies are exhausting. And
how do we navigate this first moment of you know,
(44:40):
we are both very tired and feel that we are
deserving of rest, but no rest is to be had.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Yeah, this is something to negotiate ahead of time, not
necessarily like before you have a baby, but like before
that moment arrives, because in that moment, everyone is feeling
so depleted. And I think what's important to recognize is
that our own pain feels bigger than the other person's pain,
and we feel pretty certain in those moments that it
(45:08):
is bigger, Right Like, if I've been with the baby
all day, then I am pretty sure that my partner
who got to read emails from start to finish and
go to the bathroom alone. Has had an easier day,
But my partner may have had meeting after meeting with
his crappy you know, micromanagy difficult boss and also is
sleep deprived and had to try to pretend that he
(45:31):
had all cylinders firing neurologically all day long, and all
he wants to do is come home and just like
sit without somebody telling him what to do. And he
feels like, you know, the baby napped, and so I
had a break to myself. So if you are both
feeling in desperate need of a break, the reality is
you are both deserving of a break. So I think
(45:53):
trying to do some understanding conversation and some problem solving
in advance of the moment, recognizing that that moment is
really a difficult one for both people and that you're
both absolutely you know, you come by it rightly. You
both deserve a little bit of a break, and wondering
how you can do that, And there's lots of different
ways to problem solve that, Like you know, one is
(46:15):
to outsource it, to actually get some help so that
you both can get a break, maybe even at the
same time, maybe even together, Like it could just be
napping together, which is lovely if you can get it.
But there could be other ways to problem solve it too,
like you know, turn taking, so you know, perhaps the
partner who's coming home from work just stays in their
(46:35):
car for fifteen minutes so that they can have some
quiet time, and then when they come in they're ready
to take the baby so that the partner who's been
home with the baby all day can get a well
deserved break. This is a little bit later in life example,
but my husband and I both really are desperate to
get a little bit of work done on Sundays, and
so we divide the day. He gets an hour in
the morning, I get an hour in the afternoon. It
(46:57):
is like a precious hour for each of us and
we try to honor it and do that turn taking
with what with whoever doesn't have the work time, taking
the three kids for an hour away from the parent
who's working. So there are ways to negotiate it, and
there's ways to get help. It is hard to do
that kind of thinking in the moment where you're just
desperate for the break, but in that moment, just to
(47:20):
recognize that the other person is not a villain They're
not trying to screw you over. They're probably also just
extremely fatigued and struggling as well.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
Okay, so I want to end with sex as one does,
because I think this is a sort of.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
A piece of all.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Of this which comes up a lot in early parenting,
which is, you know, initially for physical reasons and then
for a bunch of other reasons, like people are not
having sex as much, and we know parents have less sex,
and we know that many people that everybody, but many
people find that to be an important part of their
relationship and important part of their life, of their life.
(48:02):
How does one navigate mismatched post baby sex drive.
Speaker 5 (48:09):
It's a really hard one for a lot of reasons.
And I think one of the things that can happen
is that, for example, the partner who who had the
child physically and is now nursing is just touched out
and they're giving a lot of physical warmth and affection
to the baby, and the partner who did not give
(48:30):
birth and who is not nursing is feeling kind of neglected.
And that isn't you know, the partner who had the
baby's fault. They're exhausted and depleted, but it is a
very painful thing to feel neglected by your partner. And
so what can often happen is that the partner who
feels neglected is starts to sort of become more insistent,
and then the partner who's nursing around the clock and
(48:53):
just is touched out feels like yet another thing. And
you can feed and clothe yourselves and yourself so I
don't really want to meet your needs right now, and
you're being quite insensitive to me. So there's like this
this real tension. So I think part of it is
to just recognize that when one person is wanting more
intimacy than the other, again, it's not a villainous, you know,
(49:17):
malevolent desire. It's a desire to connect. You know, if
people are familiar with this idea of the five love languages,
one of them is physical intimacy, and for a lot
of people that is a really really important way to connect.
And so if you have one person who's like that
one that love language is not on the table right
now because it's being consumed by the baby, then that
(49:37):
can really leave the person who really wants to connect
that way feeling unloved. And that that's a very painful
place to be. So I think just starting from a
compassionate understanding point of view, and then you can move
to some of the negotiations the problem solving, and the
problem solving is not easy. And so what I do
want to say, and I say this so often in
couples therapy, is that there is no good, simple solution
(49:59):
to a comp heated problem. And if you think that
there is one, if you anytime you hear yourself say
if you would only just that's probably the preamble to
a simple solution. And it is probably a complicated problem.
And your partner is probably going to resist that kind
of solution because usually it's something that they're supposed to
do that doesn't feel so simple for them, even if
it feels simple for you. And so I think trying
(50:22):
to think in more nuanced ways of like, you have
needs and I have needs, and we're both really tapped
out and pulled in so many different directions, and so
what's a way that we can get a little bit
better without expecting to resolve anything perfectly for the time being. So,
how can I if it's physical affection that you're looking
for and sex really doesn't feel on the table because
(50:44):
I'm still healing from delivery. Then you know what other
kinds of ways of connecting physically would be positive, even
if they're not exactly what you're looking for. If space
is what you need, and you know care and sort
of not touching is what you need, what's the way
that I can can give you that without totally giving
up on our connection entirely, and so finding these sort
(51:06):
of middle ground solutions that are imperfect and that recognize
that it's a complicated problem to solve this difference in
desire to connect intimately and doing it really compassionately I
think is so important because the tendency, I think is
to really vilify one another because we're feeling so hurt.
It's this like instinctual you hurt me, I'm going to
(51:27):
hurt you back, and instead of coming together, which is
what both people tend to want, it sort of pulls
you further apart.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I love this, Yale. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
I think there's a really a tremendous amount in this
conversation that people will benefit from.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I always learned from you, so thanks for moving here.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Thank you. I always love chatting with you.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Parent data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts
on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
at Prof Emily Oster. And if you want to support
the show, become a subscriber to the parent Data newsletter
at parentdata dot org, where I write weekly posts on
everything to do with parents and data to help you
(52:35):
make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, you can
read all of the l's contributions to parent Data, including
her research on how to set boundaries with other adults. Spoiler,
it's more productive than just cutting your mother in law
out of your life. At parentdata dot org, there are
a lot of ways you can help people find out
about us. Leave a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts,
(52:57):
Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.
Debate your mother in law about the merits of something
parents do now that is totally different.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
From what she did.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
Plose the story to your Instagram, debunking a panic headline
of your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too.
Rite penelpe right, mam, We'll see you next time.
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