July 2, 2026 • 53 mins
Bachelor Nation favorites Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio are all members of the club no one wants to be in - they’ve all lost a spouse.
The three discuss processing grief, balancing parenthood with loss, and finding love in chapter two.
Plus, we hear about Michael’s new children’s book, Where The Wild Heart Grows, and its powerful message!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, I do Part two. It's your celebrity mentors me,
Joan Vassos and Kathy Schwartz, And today we get to
connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the
same club as us that no one wants to be
a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club
for people who have lost a spouse.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, Joan and I we've both lost spouses. But it
feels a little different because our children were a little
bit older. But you know, it's still is club no
one wants to belong to. And today we are going
to chat with someone who is in that same group
(00:56):
with us. We all met Michael on Katie Thurston season
of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He
has a new children's book out that we also can't
wait to talk with him about.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Hi Michael, Hi, thanks for having me on. Guys. You
look great and I'm so happy to be on here
and be able to chat with you guys about all
things and this dreadful club that we're all Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Okay, so tell me, since we are all members of
this club, tell us about your late wife Laura and
what she was like.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
I appreciate that question too. I met Laura when I
was eighteen. I was a freshman in college. She was
a senior in high school on a college visit, and
I saw her from across the quad walking around campus
and I told her, no joke. I said, if you
come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Bumps.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
And this is without Facebook, this is without I didn't
have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in
the cafeteria the following fall and lived up to my promise.
So we were together for sixteen years. We had all
life smilestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together,
(02:28):
and had a kid, James, And when we welcomed him
into the world, we had about seven seven months a
bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually stopped
taking milk from one side at Laura's breast, and that's
how we found it. And so it went from all
of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down,
(02:51):
as it often does with any diagnosis sets out there,
and it was a wild ride. She passed away in
two thousand and nineteen, when James was two and since
then been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous,
gorgeous girlfriend Jade, who's just been such a blessing in
(03:13):
our life. But life is crazy, and as you both
know very well, you can have as many plans as
you want. Life doesn't necessarily care and sometimes we're left
to pick up the pieces and find our way back.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question
about being a father of a young child. I know
my kids were grown, my last, my youngest, my fourth
was in college when John passed away, so I know that,
you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours.
I'd like to hear about, like the way you processed
your gree if you have a young child, did you
(03:51):
have time to process your group grief for has that
been like really delayed and coming in to focus now,
you know, maybe a little later in life.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
I think that it's a great question, and I think
grief often gets this broad brushstroke. You know, we all
lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different,
and none is better, less painful than the other. They're
all different and we can see benefits and we can
(04:21):
learn lessons throughout the whole thing, But it doesn't take
away the challenge and the pain of trying to find
your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned.
And you know, with with James and with my own
dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it.
I really just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver,
(04:45):
I mean that teaches you first and foremost that you
have to be the rock. You have to be able
to serve like you have. You can't put your fears
on somebody else, even though they are so present. You
have to get them to the next scam or the
next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I
(05:05):
felt like for me, the same thing was true about grief.
I really had to run into just being a single dad.
I mean, our goal was to have a child together,
to raise James together, and when after she passed, I
was really nervous because I was like, do I have
the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is
(05:28):
grief going to define me? And also my son? And
I always have this fear of I think every parent does,
where the actions that you have as a parent they
make such an impact on a child that it's like,
is this going to affect so many generations, and so
(05:48):
it has to be handled with so much care, is
so much pressure, and so you know, I always tried
to walk that balance with my son on grief and
allowing him to be a kid, while still allowing that
space for us to be able to talk about his mom,
(06:08):
even though he was so young when she passed.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware my husband
died by suicide also in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I'm so sorry to hear that key.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I appreciate that, But I wanted to just get back
to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both
lost your spouse's to illnesses where there were doctor's appointments,
you had time to prepare, if that's even a thing. Yeah,
and so I've often people ask me about my grief journey.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
As you said, Michael, grief is grief, and we all
experienced it differently, and you have to walk through grief
to get to the other side. You know, you can't
run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm
very curious how grief. I still have moments when I
have just the grief washes over me, And I just
(07:06):
wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John
was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you
lose your spouse.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Do you want to take that at Joan or you
want me to?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I know you and I have talked about this, which
is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe
we were going to do maybe a little something together
to talk about things just like this, because people don't
get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit,
because you've experienced like intense grief. But I'll tell you
I was in denial, to be perfectly honest, which was
(07:38):
so naive of me. But I kept thinking John was
such a healthy man. And you probably thought the same
thing about Laura, like how could she not be here,
you know, for the rest of our kids' lives. And
so John went from weighing like two hundred pounds two
hundred and ten pounds, and I still in my mind
thought he was going to live. And it was so
like I was in such denial that when he passed away,
(08:00):
I think I was in chalk for like a year.
I just was surviving. I just one foot in front
of the other. How about you, Michael. I wonder how
you did it. I know you couldn't just put one
foot in front of the other. You had to raise
a kid, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I we rang the bell twice,
you know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan,
that as caregivers we never give up hope. But there
was a there was a time when, I mean I
knew enough about the cancer and everything where it had
(08:34):
spread to a different part in your body, and I knew,
and I could see it in the doctor's eyes that
it was that it was uphill. And so I even
though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my
heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained
(08:56):
hope to the last day, kind of searching, searching for
a miracle.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I have
talked about this. I was in denial after my husband died.
I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and
I was going to wake up and he was going
to be there. And my children were obviously much older
than your son, James, Michael, but and yours world er.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Too, Joan. But you still have those family.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Issues and the grief that just permeates transcends everything, regardless
of the age of your children.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it's just interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah,
two things are true at the same time, and all
things are true at the exact same time. I mean,
I used to think that grief was about hurting less
and over time I've learned and that it is really
(10:01):
about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand.
And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift,
and it's grief is a gift because I loved everything
that Laura gave me, the memories, James, I mean sixteen years.
(10:22):
We built a life together in many ways, the things,
the habits that I have or habits that we developed together,
and it was it was one of those things where
after she passed away, I was I was just really
really lost on who I was, what my identity was.
(10:43):
Am I capable of this all of the all of
the things that maybe I took for granted that she did.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I just love that you like you talk about the
habits that you formed because you were together for so long,
and Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have.
I was together with John for two years, and I
didn't know how not to be a couple. All of
a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself,
and I hadn't been that way for so long, and
I didn't know how to do it. I'm still not sure.
(11:12):
I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I
have chalk, obviously, but like he's not the father of
my kids. And we don't have like a lot of
couple friends together because we don't live near each other.
And I have a couple of friends that I developed
from my kids were really really little, and we raised
our children together. And then all of a sudden, I
was like, suddenly not part of this group. Because couples
like to exist with other couples exist with singles, and
(11:35):
you become this island.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
And you're out.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
My experience was I also met my husband. I was
had just turned to eighteen when I met him. I
met him the first day of college and I looked
across the room and I told my I love that.
I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I
did and we were together, almost married almost forty six years.
(12:08):
So for me, for me, this journey of rediscovering who
I am. I had to learn from the get go
because I was married when I was twenty years old.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean, it's ridiculous, and it's you know, regardless of
what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up
growing into one. Yes, yeah, I think that's actually a
very healthy thing where it's too You maintain your individuality,
of course throughout the course of a marriage, but you
can't help but morph into each other. And I've had
(12:43):
so many conversations with widowers and widows about this, and
everybody's situation is so different, so some people would say, man,
yours is the worst. Michael James was so young, But
here I didn't have to have the same of conversations
that you did Kathy like or you did Joan because
(13:04):
your kids were older and and very he passed away.
My my biggest thing always was like, how can I
make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this?
How how can I learn tools that I wasn't born with?
(13:27):
But I need to adopt immediately so that this doesn't
create a psychopath that blamed, that blames tragedy for everything
that happens in his life. He'll he'll be ten in
in September.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So he was how old when when Laura passed too?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, you know, I think that there's like a big
it's a weird scale because you think, Okay, James isn't
missing his mother like the person that he probably does
hard remembers, correct, But then you have the job of
reminding him and keeping her memory alive, because there is
going to be a day maybe when he's fifteen or sixteen,
(14:09):
or seventeen or eighteen or some time in the near future,
that he's going to want to know about his mom.
And it sounds like really good.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
It's this balance between very much keeping her alive and
not making him feel pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah,
I've seen I've seen a lot of people make mistakes
about kind of they're they're so anxious about making sure
that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids
(14:39):
that young, they're not going to remember. None of us
remember anything when we were two and so and so
one of the reason ways I kind of bring that
up is is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah,
you know, I'll let him know that he is very
much a part of her. He'll laugh he does. He's
incredibly books, which she was and I wasn't. And so
(15:04):
I'll say, you know, that reminds me just that your
mom and then that that facilitates a conversation not you know,
do you remember, Yeah, all of this because you know,
I don't want the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that
he may he or she may have forgotten.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and the and that grief is different, you know,
the missing somebody intensely, that grief, Like I wake up
in the middle of night still feeling that. I think
I feel that, you know, thank god he doesn't feel that.
And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older,
but they John so now. So they're now thirty six,
thirty five, thirty two and turning thirty on tomorrow, actually
(15:42):
the day after tomorrow, so you know, so John's been
gone for six years, press so you know, Luke was
just get out of college, and like they have all
these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely.
So that's like a little bit of a different kind
of grief. Like You're son is going to realize. I'm
sure he already does that. All of his friends have
(16:03):
a mom and he doesn't. My kids all like see
their all their friends have a dad, and you know
they need their mentoring and they don't have a dad
to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and
two girls, and the boys really feel.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It, you know, hats hats off to our club, right
like I. You know, I am. I have to apply
and I think I'm going to speak for you guys
and too, because I can feel it. We have to
apply some sort of purpose to it, and we have
(16:37):
to extract lessons from what life has given us or
else it's all in vain and it's not toxic positivity.
It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much
about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing
(16:58):
so close with death. Like I think, if prior to
death and it being a part of our life and
being on the oncology floor and all of that for
two years talking with people living it, breathing it, I
think if you would ask me what do I want
in my life in order to be happy? I would
(17:19):
have had a hard time with that. But if you
were to ask me what do I don't want to
what don't I want to regret in my life? I
can answer that now, because when you talk to people
at the end of their life, when you walk the floor,
when you speak with people of age, they will tell
you all the things that they regret, and it's the
(17:39):
blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so yes,
I am burdened. I carry grief. I carry that pain
every single day, and the second I think I made
sense of it, I wake up in the morning and
it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift
of grief, and it provides for us. We don't create
(18:01):
our own problems as much anymore because we know what
real problems are and it allows us to just, I
don't know, a structure a life that we can be
proud of.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Sounds like that you channeled your grief into writing this
book and it's going to help other people. So you've
found a purpose at least, you know, in the time being.
I would love to hear more about your book, Where
the Wild Heart Grows. What made you write a book
just like this?
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the
book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things.
It's about growing up, it's about growing old. It uses
nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able
to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life.
(18:58):
And there's seven an interconnected story is it's very old world.
I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was
done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name
is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter, and so
(19:19):
we did thirty five illustrations the old school way to
try to slow down time, to try to teach kids
without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life,
the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for
new growth, and that there's so much by just observing
(19:43):
nature that we can learn about our own life and
all that growth that happens, and all that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I have to say. I read the advanced copy. The
illustrations are incredib I think you have a call Decott.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Winner on your hands here. Thank you, but I cannot believe.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And I want about fifteen copies because we'll get back
to the second art, sort of dealing with grandchildren on
all this grief and loss that we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But in your.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Book you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder the
struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I
love one of the lunch you had, wild, the wild
beauty of everyday moments, And that is exactly what that book,
to me represents, slowing down and seeing the beauty in
(20:44):
everyday moments.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book.
These are seven stories that James hands selected. I actually
wrote thirty five of them all in the sure so
he han't selected some of some of them. He's like, yeah,
that's not that's not making the cut, and I'm like, oh,
(21:07):
everyone's a chrismal, right, there really is. But I really
really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this
book for? And I always have a tough time putting
it in parameters because I have this idea and I'm
just deep help belief that the basic things that we
(21:29):
learned as kids we have forgotten as adults. And when
when you were talking with a child, when you're talking
with anybody, if you begin to lecture to them, they
begin to put up their walls, their ego starts coming up,
they start defending, and that's not me or they pull away.
And for me, I noticed that with James early on.
(21:53):
It was the whole how is your day? It was good?
What you do? Nothing? Nothing, you're feeling I'm fine, And
I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did
the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just
writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through,
whether or not you're growing up or growing old. And
(22:15):
it is the courage to begin again. There's a story
about us. There's a story about a spider.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Whose web keep I'm sitting here right there. I took
a picture of that quote, honestly because it resonated so much.
I have it right here. I'd love to read it
so the audience knows what we're talking about, because I
think it talks about us, It talks about your son,
It talks about so many people, probably not just us.
And it says, maybe strength isn't in the web, Maybe
it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again.
(22:44):
And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again,
whether it's you know, starting in a life without a spouse.
Hopefully you know not many people have to experience that,
but even in like losing a job or losing your home,
there's you know, we're all going to experience some place
where you have to find stre to begin again.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I love that Joan, and it's spot on because even
in that story, someone asked, the spider's so upset that
its web keeps falling down, and then it's asked, you know,
tell me about the first web you ever made, and
the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together,
(23:21):
it didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess.
And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one
lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah, And that's really
the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we
want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be,
and we are forced to have the courage to begin
(23:42):
again and start.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Leaving while we're sitting here giving our quotes. I think
your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as
it is for children. What matters is not clinging to
what was, but trusting what will be. I read that,
I thought, I have never met you before today, and
I thought, thank you that just reading that quote gives
(24:06):
me hope. It's what will be, you know, one foot
in the past, never forgetting, and moving forward and looking
towards the future.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
So thank you for that quote as well.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you
guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's
it's lessons we can all pull from at any point
in our life, no matter what we're going through.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do
you think, because you wrote this book sort of to
help you talk to James about these things, or that
was one of the reasons, how do you think this
will help children to comprehend grief and loss?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah? I mean I again, I think it's grief, it's loss,
it's growing, it's it's it's courage, it's it's friendship, it's kindness,
it's all of those things. When kids are going through
the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed
and they feel lost, to recognize that in that stillness,
(25:12):
that in that area where we feel like we're not developing,
that our roots are growing, that growth is happening even
when we can't feel it. And I always have this
idea of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of
the nursing home when I'm you know, ninety years old
(25:34):
or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home. See
my grandma and I look in these rooms and they
are people with real stories, you know, people with lives
well lived. And the one thing you notice is that
they jump out of their seat as fast as they
can when they see a young child, and you start
(25:56):
to look at them and their phones not ringing, and
it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact
if I were to go talk to any of those
people that are sitting in their room, that they would
transport to the hardest time in their life, the time
in our life that we are so excited to try
(26:19):
to get out of. Yeah, And it's like, this is life.
The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for
something down the road to fulfill you, you're gonna miss it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
And so it's it's this really this call to be
present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it, because,
believe it or not, the worst time in your life,
one day, you're gonna miss it. You're going to miss
the lessons it taught you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I love that. I like living in the present is
so hard, but I think we all learned a lesson
because our future was kind of taken away from us,
and that was like the biggest thing for me if
there was this black hole ahead of me now and
I didn't have a future, And to learn how to
live in a present so I don't miss that so
much has been such a gift. And so when you
(27:08):
talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably
the biggest one that I took from this. Like living
in the moment a lot more.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Yeah, and allowing yourself to mess up, allowing your allowing
yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves
to others in any form or fashion, and to give
yourself permission to just be yourself. I fear for our
(27:37):
kids living in the digital age with social media, that
what makes them special is uted and it's going to
get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And
there's a story in this book about the dancing Dandelion
(27:58):
and people. People can read all about it, but it's
about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching, because
you have something to offer this world, even though people
may judge you, laugh at you. The worst thing any
of us could ever do is to silence our gift
(28:20):
just because we're trying to fit.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
In we kind of touched on this a little bit
about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we've all
feel that sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks.
But now that you are kind of seven years out,
(28:44):
I'm sure your grief is very different than it was
when it first occurred. What things are you processing now?
And I'd love to hear these things from you because
I feel like when you say them, it kind of
solidifies them, like this ideas that are my head. You're
so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to
hear what you're processing seven years later.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Gratitude.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I am seven years out. That was when you asked
that question, John, I knew you asked it to Michael.
I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life,
every sunrise, every's continue on, Michael.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
But please please keep talking. I want to I want
to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Well, no, it's just that I when we talk about
walking through grief, and I think the biggest thing that
my husband's death taught me was many of the things
you've said, Michael. But enjoying every moment being it is
it be, you know, being kind, being present, all the
things that you've been talking about, really taking time to
(29:49):
look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoying my great.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
The little things that were so busy.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And scheduled that when my husband died and it was
so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were
left unseat, so many things that were left undone. So uh,
seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I
have three children, and I really try to soak up
(30:18):
every minute of my life their life.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
And you you know, we won't regret that. And I
think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying,
is is also just relief that I'm here because there
was a time when I grief was so heavy. I
didn't know who I was going to become after this.
I didn't know how it was going to change me.
(30:44):
I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going
to make me hard and hate the world for what
it did and questioning God and do all of those things.
And instead it has allowed me to really appreciate the
things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and
(31:05):
welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see
I'm so happy to see James running the front door
from the school bus, completely bypass me and run into
Jade's arms.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Can we talk a little bit about Jade?
Speaker 4 (31:22):
So absolutely?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
So I know that she's moved in with you.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I'm curious how you met, how that whole evolution has
taken place, that she is now integrated into your life.
And as you say, you can still hold Laura and
that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving
more than one person at once.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But I'm oh, absolutely, And I think if any listeners
are are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time.
But I think a lot of people will tell you
it exists, and just give it. Give it time you're ready,
don't rush into anything. But after I got off the
(32:06):
Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV.
She reached out and we never had like a romantic relationship.
It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for
me what I've been through. And we found just through
that a long mutual friendship, long distance. And she was
(32:29):
in Hollywood, in West Hollywood doing her own thing, and
there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah,
could there be something here? But look, you're across the
across the country. I'm in akron Olisle and I'm not
laving so over time. This was about about two years ago.
(32:50):
We met up in LA when I was out there,
and I saw her again and it was almost like
the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad.
It was it was and I was so so happy
that I felt that again. Yes, And if you would
have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago,
(33:12):
I would have said, I that feeling's gone. It's gonna
have to feel so different now. But that's the only
feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in
that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to
(33:32):
each other and developed that relationship and then, yeah, it
took the plunge two years or she's been here for
two years. And integrating a family is a challenging thing.
I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, Why
won't you marry this woman already?
Speaker 3 (33:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (33:54):
And it's all these things, And the truth is is,
you know, I'm probably going to I'm going to do.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
You want more children?
Speaker 4 (34:03):
So we've talked about that. Originally I wanted three, and
now I'm forty two.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I'm exhausted, like I mean, trust me, Michael, it
gets worse.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Oh oh oh, I know, I know, But the last
decade has been a tough one on this guy in
every which way. Just being mom, being dad, managing careers,
doing all of this, making sure you're present is exhausting.
And he is. He's so enough and so like right now,
(34:40):
it's a season of first because I've never been able
to raise James alongside somebody, so I don't have the
blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new
every day. I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's
great to have somebody who we can capture memories together
(35:02):
with and we can share all of those life moments
with and after he goes to bed, we can talk
in bed about where what we did right, what we
did wrong, you know, all of those things that just
I don't know, just make it all worth it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I love. I would have loved to have been a
fly on the wall when you first introduced this concept
to James about you dating someone, and I'm sure you
would have never done unless you had known this was
like maybe your person, and so probably didn't have it
until you met Jade. I would love to know what
you said to James, How did you introduce this concept?
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Yeah, I mean, I've it's always I mean, I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna lie. It's always been a tricky
thing because James and I have developed i mean, were one.
He's known, you know, me and him in this house
and that's it.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And so.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge,
and it's going to be uncomfortable, and what we're all
going to find out is that it's not as hard
as we think it is. And I think that that
message is so true for starting again after loss, about
(36:18):
imagining what's it going to be like going on that
first date, What's it going to be like driving to
someone that's not my husband, What's it going to be
like when those inside jokes that we shared and those
memories that we always talked about at dinner are no
longer remembered by the person I'm now dating. They smell different,
they look different, they're all these things and you just
(36:41):
have to have to begin knowing that it's a process,
and as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding,
taking time, knowing that there's love kind of bring it
back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and
people will just I think avoiding the conversations is the
(37:04):
worst thing. I think. I think kids can handle a
lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more
resilient and more understanding and have less biased than adults
have developed over the years. So that's been my experience.
But I if that comes across like I am an expert,
I am far from that. It is it is. It
(37:26):
has been a journey.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Let me tell you you've done it well.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So Joan.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son
to another woman.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Joan.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You and I both have grandchildren, and in both of
our cases are our husbands never got to spend meet
or spend time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael.
I you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Joan, congrats, thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It's such a blessing. But you're right, Kathy. You know,
I think about when I asked you the question of like,
what are you processing now? Seven years later, my thought
was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You
guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do
but really, my first thing that came to my mind
is life isn't fair, and that's how these big moments.
(38:37):
So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John
would have loved that sunset. He love sunsets, and I'll
see the beautiful sunset and all it makes me sad.
Even though I'm happy I'm seeing this beautiful sunset, I
feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that
he doesn't get.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
To share it.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And it's even you know, even more magnified with things
like big, like big life events. So when my John
actually did see one of our grandchildren get born and
he got to walk one of our two daughters down
the aisle, so he did experience those big moments. But
you know, life keeps moving on, and that's what makes
(39:12):
me the sadest.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think I picked up a little bit when you're going, Kathy,
which was experiencing first yeah and having having say chalk
and you be able to experience all these first with
with grandkids. And I know for a fact, and I'll
(39:34):
I'll just say this is one of the hardest things
in the world, which I never would have predicted, was
sharing James with somebody else and That's the weirdest thing
because the entire time while I'm grieving, I am like, God,
can I just find somebody to share him with. When
it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a
(39:55):
violation or al or something like that. And then again
and over time it starts to feel less like that
and more normal and all of that.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
So I get that, and so for me it's a
flip side.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather.
I'm so sorry that. You know, my husband, I have
one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down
the aisle for her wedding. These adorable granddaughters that I have,
he saw one for.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
A few months.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
But those things, I feel compelled to be the grandmother,
the grandfather, to give my grandchildren the memories that you
are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort
of the next generation of that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
Yeah, And playing those dual roles is tricky, and you know,
there's a lot of responsibility and weight that we put
on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here,
and really all we have to do is just be
just be ourselves, because that's that's so enough. I mean life,
life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is dark,
(41:11):
life is all those things. But if you are able
to just understand that the dark seasons in your life
are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient
enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass.
There's light at the end of that tunnel. It could
be grandkids, it could be finding new love, it could
(41:32):
you know, just who knows. Like, let's let's stop trying
to plan everything.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, as your story says, the acorns fall to the ground,
but in the spring, new leaves come out.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
I just they always they always do. There's the whole
idea like behind the book too, was I was looking
outside of my window in my bedroom and I was
looking at this tree. And this tree has been in
my backyard forever and it was during the first year
that Lore passed, and I felt like I have one
(42:04):
of those moments where I watched this tree through all
four seasons and you know, it's growing new leaves, it's
turning you know, amber and an orange, leaves are falling
and all that, and I was just wondering, does the
tree worn? Is the tree grieving? You know, does does
the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around. Does
(42:26):
the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose
anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals,
or nourishment or shade. But it's like no, Like trees
are wise. They understand that they have to let go
in order to allow for new growth, and they it's
(42:46):
just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of
the moment, we've all been through these cycles before, they
just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than
being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are
you going to do with your life? Who are you?
What are you going to become? Where are you going
to live? How much money are you gonna make? What
(43:06):
is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am,
and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's
nothing but questions ahead. And it's like we've gone through
those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life,
and that's that's like all lie this are these seasons
of turning the page and allowing things to let go.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is
turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary
of John's death. He died on January eighteenth, and I
went to the cemetery and I happen to be alone
that day. My kids had gone the day before, and
I went by myself, and I thought, for the first time,
I felt like he wasn't part of our life, that
(43:52):
life had moved on enough that like the light that
we are creating now would have been foreign to him.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
All.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, three of the four kids are married. We at
that point, I had three grandchildren. Now I have five
as of like two days ago, and that like all
of a sudden, I was I got really worried that
I was going to his memory was going to fade
as a new memories backfilled. And I think that's been
(44:19):
the scariest thing for me. And I'm like still really
resistant of it.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
And that's why I think personally, people hold on to
the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the
connection to the ones of And when that pain starts
to go away, well, I should say, the pain ends
up defining the only thing that connects you and your
loved one, and so it feels like it's getting more distance,
(44:43):
but in fact you're still carrying it. It's just redefining
itself and it's it's becoming something else, and you're allowing
yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally
doesn't always feel that way.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yes, I think for me, my kids again, seven years out,
now we can laugh about some.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Of the things that went on life.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
We can bring back those memories and the pain, as
you said, Michael, is still there, but it has receded
some because there are other parts of joy, whether or
not he can share in them. My kids and I
can look at life that we have now and again
be so grateful for what we have while still saying
(45:34):
you know, oh, what would your dad say about this?
And it brings smiles to our faces. Now the pain
is still there, but you know it pain, the grief
ebbs and flows. And I love the fact that, again,
different generation, but you have James to walk hand in
hand with you through this grief and the love for
(45:57):
Laura while still building this new life for you.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
And I have the same with my children.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Yeah, there's the way I feel like we're always in
this mentality that there's limited space and and and they're
they're like if if I ended up having a second child,
I would love that kid just as much as James,
and like it's expansive, and so it's like, let's let's
(46:26):
try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know, like they,
we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love,
just like Joe and your family's growing. And it's like
you thought you were at your macs of love until
those grandkids entered the world. And it's like, let's quit
(46:49):
digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we
know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong.
Let's just keep watering.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
It just flow with like is somebody I always So
I have this thought in my mind and I don't
know if you two have it. Also that John sends
me signs sometimes when I need them. So Father is
a really hard day for us normally, well this year,
and I'm gonna cry talking about this. My oldest son,
who misses his father so much, got to be a
(47:20):
dad and it was early that they became Early, I
felt like John sent us somebody to be happy about.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys,
and how happy that makes me feel, because like that's
that's the that's the life right. It takes away and
it allows for a new life to come into your world.
And it's such a it's such a beautiful thing. I'm
so happy for it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
I get the same thing my daughter the other day,
uh said, some things went on in her life, and
she told me after the fact, she said, Dad, I
need a sign. I need a sign. And she said
with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which
was was sort of one of our things, came and
just sat on her shirt.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
And yeah, I mean I love that.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Do you ever get any signs from Laura?
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Oh, geez, I mean all the time. I mean, James
is a walking sign. I mean, for one, I'm telling
nature versus nurture nature. It's nature like he laughs, like her.
His anxiety is like her, His like OCD organizational type
A behavior is identical to her. It's it's unbelievable. And
(48:39):
I have this like, I have this faith right that
I know for certain that we're all going to see
them again. So from now until then, it's just time.
It's just time. And you know what, we've done a
good job of We've done a good job of creating
the most ridiculous story be able to share with them. Guys,
(49:03):
we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's
The Bachelor, The Bachelor at the most wild thing that
was never in our plans at all.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Let's let's not forget paradise, Michael, you, let's not forget
paradise bathing suits.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
So I got to hand to you, guys, I've.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
Got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with
for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
On that.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
Yeah, and that you know, I'm proud of us for
doing that, for still having that like zest for life
and desire to not sit still. And if people are
sitting still after lost, I'm not judging that. Take your time.
I did it too, everybody's done it. But I'm I'm
proud that the courage that it took to just get
(49:52):
out there and try something just completely.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like, yeah, thinking, like,
am I like not respecting his memory by going on.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
You know, the judgments everywhere?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, And I thought that I'm going to get that.
And then I said that to a friend of mine ago,
I'm not really He had offered it to me, and
I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to
go and do it. I you know, are people going
to think I don't like I still love him like that,
I could that I could move on, And am I
not respecting that memory by doing something like so big
and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person.
And my friend said, oh my god, you're being ridiculous.
(50:29):
John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing,
gregarious person in the world. And I'm like, oh my god,
he would love She's right, he would have loved this.
So I was like, literally that moment I made the decision,
I'm like, he loved this. I'm not not respecting him.
I know.
Speaker 5 (50:42):
I have a lot of questions one day, want too, Yeah,
so my husband, because you know, obviously, this is nothing
any of us would have done had we had we
had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief
and having to build a new life.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
But for me, it was very life affirming.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
The whole experience of Bachelor's life affirming, and frankly, all
three of us are people that are building lives through
the grief.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
We are finding.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Ways with our families to love life and love each
other and love others.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
And who could ask for more?
Speaker 4 (51:20):
Right that's it exactly.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
And with that, if.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Someone is listening right now and they have a friend
or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope
that this has helped you.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
This podcast has helped you.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
And you can also get Let's tell everybody where you
can get Michael's book where the Wildheart Grows on the
Wildheart Grows dot com. Is that right, Michael?
Speaker 4 (51:43):
Yeah, yeah, we decided to sell online The Wildheart Grows
dot Com. You can order it there. Shipments are going
out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how
much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good,
it's so beautiful. I'm sad now that like I'm not
(52:05):
creating it anymore, and now it's out into the world
volume two.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Here you got stories waiting in the background.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Well, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned.
And I appreciate you guys having us on. I could
do this all day.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, I think we could.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
You are an amazing, amazing man, and your stories are incredible,
both the ones in the book and your life story
that you were sharing with us today.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
It's a comedy, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
You've made us laugh.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
Thank you Yeah, you too.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
So are you like us and have lost a spouse,
finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and
need some help.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
the info is in the show notes. Follow us on
socials too, Please
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
love is the main objective.
Hey, I do Part two. It's your celebrity mentors me,
Joan Vassos and Kathy Schwartz, And today we get to
connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the
same club as us that no one wants to be
a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club
for people who have lost a spouse.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, Joan and I we've both lost spouses. But it
feels a little different because our children were a little
bit older. But you know, it's still is club no
one wants to belong to. And today we are going
to chat with someone who is in that same group
(00:56):
with us. We all met Michael on Katie Thurston season
of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He
has a new children's book out that we also can't
wait to talk with him about.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Hi Michael, Hi, thanks for having me on. Guys. You
look great and I'm so happy to be on here
and be able to chat with you guys about all
things and this dreadful club that we're all Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Okay, so tell me, since we are all members of
this club, tell us about your late wife Laura and
what she was like.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
I appreciate that question too. I met Laura when I
was eighteen. I was a freshman in college. She was
a senior in high school on a college visit, and
I saw her from across the quad walking around campus
and I told her, no joke. I said, if you
come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Bumps.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
And this is without Facebook, this is without I didn't
have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in
the cafeteria the following fall and lived up to my promise.
So we were together for sixteen years. We had all
life smilestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together,
(02:28):
and had a kid, James, And when we welcomed him
into the world, we had about seven seven months a
bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually stopped
taking milk from one side at Laura's breast, and that's
how we found it. And so it went from all
of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down,
(02:51):
as it often does with any diagnosis sets out there,
and it was a wild ride. She passed away in
two thousand and nineteen, when James was two and since
then been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous,
gorgeous girlfriend Jade, who's just been such a blessing in
(03:13):
our life. But life is crazy, and as you both
know very well, you can have as many plans as
you want. Life doesn't necessarily care and sometimes we're left
to pick up the pieces and find our way back.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question
about being a father of a young child. I know
my kids were grown, my last, my youngest, my fourth
was in college when John passed away, so I know that,
you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours.
I'd like to hear about, like the way you processed
your gree if you have a young child, did you
(03:51):
have time to process your group grief for has that
been like really delayed and coming in to focus now,
you know, maybe a little later in life.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
I think that it's a great question, and I think
grief often gets this broad brushstroke. You know, we all
lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different,
and none is better, less painful than the other. They're
all different and we can see benefits and we can
(04:21):
learn lessons throughout the whole thing, But it doesn't take
away the challenge and the pain of trying to find
your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned.
And you know, with with James and with my own
dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it.
I really just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver,
(04:45):
I mean that teaches you first and foremost that you
have to be the rock. You have to be able
to serve like you have. You can't put your fears
on somebody else, even though they are so present. You
have to get them to the next scam or the
next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I
(05:05):
felt like for me, the same thing was true about grief.
I really had to run into just being a single dad.
I mean, our goal was to have a child together,
to raise James together, and when after she passed, I
was really nervous because I was like, do I have
the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is
(05:28):
grief going to define me? And also my son? And
I always have this fear of I think every parent does,
where the actions that you have as a parent they
make such an impact on a child that it's like,
is this going to affect so many generations, and so
(05:48):
it has to be handled with so much care, is
so much pressure, and so you know, I always tried
to walk that balance with my son on grief and
allowing him to be a kid, while still allowing that
space for us to be able to talk about his mom,
(06:08):
even though he was so young when she passed.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware my husband
died by suicide also in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I'm so sorry to hear that key.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I appreciate that, But I wanted to just get back
to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both
lost your spouse's to illnesses where there were doctor's appointments,
you had time to prepare, if that's even a thing. Yeah,
and so I've often people ask me about my grief journey.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
As you said, Michael, grief is grief, and we all
experienced it differently, and you have to walk through grief
to get to the other side. You know, you can't
run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm
very curious how grief. I still have moments when I
have just the grief washes over me, And I just
(07:06):
wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John
was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you
lose your spouse.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Do you want to take that at Joan or you
want me to?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I know you and I have talked about this, which
is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe
we were going to do maybe a little something together
to talk about things just like this, because people don't
get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit,
because you've experienced like intense grief. But I'll tell you
I was in denial, to be perfectly honest, which was
(07:38):
so naive of me. But I kept thinking John was
such a healthy man. And you probably thought the same
thing about Laura, like how could she not be here,
you know, for the rest of our kids' lives. And
so John went from weighing like two hundred pounds two
hundred and ten pounds, and I still in my mind
thought he was going to live. And it was so
like I was in such denial that when he passed away,
(08:00):
I think I was in chalk for like a year.
I just was surviving. I just one foot in front
of the other. How about you, Michael. I wonder how
you did it. I know you couldn't just put one
foot in front of the other. You had to raise
a kid, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I I we rang the bell twice,
you know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan,
that as caregivers we never give up hope. But there
was a there was a time when, I mean I
knew enough about the cancer and everything where it had
(08:34):
spread to a different part in your body, and I knew,
and I could see it in the doctor's eyes that
it was that it was uphill. And so I even
though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my
heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained
(08:56):
hope to the last day, kind of searching, searching for
a miracle.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I have
talked about this. I was in denial after my husband died.
I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and
I was going to wake up and he was going
to be there. And my children were obviously much older
than your son, James, Michael, but and yours world er.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Too, Joan. But you still have those family.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Issues and the grief that just permeates transcends everything, regardless
of the age of your children.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it's just interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah,
two things are true at the same time, and all
things are true at the exact same time. I mean,
I used to think that grief was about hurting less
and over time I've learned and that it is really
(10:01):
about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand.
And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift,
and it's grief is a gift because I loved everything
that Laura gave me, the memories, James, I mean sixteen years.
(10:22):
We built a life together in many ways, the things,
the habits that I have or habits that we developed together,
and it was it was one of those things where
after she passed away, I was I was just really
really lost on who I was, what my identity was.
(10:43):
Am I capable of this all of the all of
the things that maybe I took for granted that she did.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I just love that you like you talk about the
habits that you formed because you were together for so long,
and Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have.
I was together with John for two years, and I
didn't know how not to be a couple. All of
a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself,
and I hadn't been that way for so long, and
I didn't know how to do it. I'm still not sure.
(11:12):
I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I
have chalk, obviously, but like he's not the father of
my kids. And we don't have like a lot of
couple friends together because we don't live near each other.
And I have a couple of friends that I developed
from my kids were really really little, and we raised
our children together. And then all of a sudden, I
was like, suddenly not part of this group. Because couples
like to exist with other couples exist with singles, and
(11:35):
you become this island.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
And you're out.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
My experience was I also met my husband. I was
had just turned to eighteen when I met him. I
met him the first day of college and I looked
across the room and I told my I love that.
I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I
did and we were together, almost married almost forty six years.
(12:08):
So for me, for me, this journey of rediscovering who
I am. I had to learn from the get go
because I was married when I was twenty years old.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean, it's ridiculous, and it's you know, regardless of
what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up
growing into one. Yes, yeah, I think that's actually a
very healthy thing where it's too You maintain your individuality,
of course throughout the course of a marriage, but you
can't help but morph into each other. And I've had
(12:43):
so many conversations with widowers and widows about this, and
everybody's situation is so different, so some people would say, man,
yours is the worst. Michael James was so young, But
here I didn't have to have the same of conversations
that you did Kathy like or you did Joan because
(13:04):
your kids were older and and very he passed away.
My my biggest thing always was like, how can I
make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this?
How how can I learn tools that I wasn't born with?
(13:27):
But I need to adopt immediately so that this doesn't
create a psychopath that blamed, that blames tragedy for everything
that happens in his life. He'll he'll be ten in
in September.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So he was how old when when Laura passed too?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, you know, I think that there's like a big
it's a weird scale because you think, Okay, James isn't
missing his mother like the person that he probably does
hard remembers, correct, But then you have the job of
reminding him and keeping her memory alive, because there is
going to be a day maybe when he's fifteen or sixteen,
(14:09):
or seventeen or eighteen or some time in the near future,
that he's going to want to know about his mom.
And it sounds like really good.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
It's this balance between very much keeping her alive and
not making him feel pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah,
I've seen I've seen a lot of people make mistakes
about kind of they're they're so anxious about making sure
that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids
(14:39):
that young, they're not going to remember. None of us
remember anything when we were two and so and so
one of the reason ways I kind of bring that
up is is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah,
you know, I'll let him know that he is very
much a part of her. He'll laugh he does. He's
incredibly books, which she was and I wasn't. And so
(15:04):
I'll say, you know, that reminds me just that your
mom and then that that facilitates a conversation not you know,
do you remember, Yeah, all of this because you know,
I don't want the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that
he may he or she may have forgotten.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and the and that grief is different, you know,
the missing somebody intensely, that grief, Like I wake up
in the middle of night still feeling that. I think
I feel that, you know, thank god he doesn't feel that.
And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older,
but they John so now. So they're now thirty six,
thirty five, thirty two and turning thirty on tomorrow, actually
(15:42):
the day after tomorrow, so you know, so John's been
gone for six years, press so you know, Luke was
just get out of college, and like they have all
these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely.
So that's like a little bit of a different kind
of grief. Like You're son is going to realize. I'm
sure he already does that. All of his friends have
(16:03):
a mom and he doesn't. My kids all like see
their all their friends have a dad, and you know
they need their mentoring and they don't have a dad
to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and
two girls, and the boys really feel.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It, you know, hats hats off to our club, right
like I. You know, I am. I have to apply
and I think I'm going to speak for you guys
and too, because I can feel it. We have to
apply some sort of purpose to it, and we have
(16:37):
to extract lessons from what life has given us or
else it's all in vain and it's not toxic positivity.
It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much
about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing
(16:58):
so close with death. Like I think, if prior to
death and it being a part of our life and
being on the oncology floor and all of that for
two years talking with people living it, breathing it, I
think if you would ask me what do I want
in my life in order to be happy? I would
(17:19):
have had a hard time with that. But if you
were to ask me what do I don't want to
what don't I want to regret in my life? I
can answer that now, because when you talk to people
at the end of their life, when you walk the floor,
when you speak with people of age, they will tell
you all the things that they regret, and it's the
(17:39):
blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so yes,
I am burdened. I carry grief. I carry that pain
every single day, and the second I think I made
sense of it, I wake up in the morning and
it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift
of grief, and it provides for us. We don't create
(18:01):
our own problems as much anymore because we know what
real problems are and it allows us to just, I
don't know, a structure a life that we can be
proud of.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Sounds like that you channeled your grief into writing this
book and it's going to help other people. So you've
found a purpose at least, you know, in the time being.
I would love to hear more about your book, Where
the Wild Heart Grows. What made you write a book
just like this?
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the
book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things.
It's about growing up, it's about growing old. It uses
nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able
to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life.
(18:58):
And there's seven an interconnected story is it's very old world.
I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was
done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name
is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter, and so
(19:19):
we did thirty five illustrations the old school way to
try to slow down time, to try to teach kids
without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life,
the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for
new growth, and that there's so much by just observing
(19:43):
nature that we can learn about our own life and
all that growth that happens, and all that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I have to say. I read the advanced copy. The
illustrations are incredib I think you have a call Decott.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Winner on your hands here. Thank you, but I cannot believe.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And I want about fifteen copies because we'll get back
to the second art, sort of dealing with grandchildren on
all this grief and loss that we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
But in your.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Book you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder the
struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I
love one of the lunch you had, wild, the wild
beauty of everyday moments, And that is exactly what that book,
to me represents, slowing down and seeing the beauty in
(20:44):
everyday moments.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book.
These are seven stories that James hands selected. I actually
wrote thirty five of them all in the sure so
he han't selected some of some of them. He's like, yeah,
that's not that's not making the cut, and I'm like, oh,
(21:07):
everyone's a chrismal, right, there really is. But I really
really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this
book for? And I always have a tough time putting
it in parameters because I have this idea and I'm
just deep help belief that the basic things that we
(21:29):
learned as kids we have forgotten as adults. And when
when you were talking with a child, when you're talking
with anybody, if you begin to lecture to them, they
begin to put up their walls, their ego starts coming up,
they start defending, and that's not me or they pull away.
And for me, I noticed that with James early on.
(21:53):
It was the whole how is your day? It was good?
What you do? Nothing? Nothing, you're feeling I'm fine, And
I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did
the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just
writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through,
whether or not you're growing up or growing old. And
(22:15):
it is the courage to begin again. There's a story
about us. There's a story about a spider.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Whose web keep I'm sitting here right there. I took
a picture of that quote, honestly because it resonated so much.
I have it right here. I'd love to read it
so the audience knows what we're talking about, because I
think it talks about us, It talks about your son,
It talks about so many people, probably not just us.
And it says, maybe strength isn't in the web, Maybe
it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again.
(22:44):
And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again,
whether it's you know, starting in a life without a spouse.
Hopefully you know not many people have to experience that,
but even in like losing a job or losing your home,
there's you know, we're all going to experience some place
where you have to find stre to begin again.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
I love that Joan, and it's spot on because even
in that story, someone asked, the spider's so upset that
its web keeps falling down, and then it's asked, you know,
tell me about the first web you ever made, and
the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together,
(23:21):
it didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess.
And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one
lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah, And that's really
the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we
want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be,
and we are forced to have the courage to begin
(23:42):
again and start.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Leaving while we're sitting here giving our quotes. I think
your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as
it is for children. What matters is not clinging to
what was, but trusting what will be. I read that,
I thought, I have never met you before today, and
I thought, thank you that just reading that quote gives
(24:06):
me hope. It's what will be, you know, one foot
in the past, never forgetting, and moving forward and looking
towards the future.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
So thank you for that quote as well.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you
guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's
it's lessons we can all pull from at any point
in our life, no matter what we're going through.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do
you think, because you wrote this book sort of to
help you talk to James about these things, or that
was one of the reasons, how do you think this
will help children to comprehend grief and loss?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah? I mean I again, I think it's grief, it's loss,
it's growing, it's it's it's courage, it's it's friendship, it's kindness,
it's all of those things. When kids are going through
the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed
and they feel lost, to recognize that in that stillness,
(25:12):
that in that area where we feel like we're not developing,
that our roots are growing, that growth is happening even
when we can't feel it. And I always have this
idea of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of
the nursing home when I'm you know, ninety years old
(25:34):
or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home. See
my grandma and I look in these rooms and they
are people with real stories, you know, people with lives
well lived. And the one thing you notice is that
they jump out of their seat as fast as they
can when they see a young child, and you start
(25:56):
to look at them and their phones not ringing, and
it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact
if I were to go talk to any of those
people that are sitting in their room, that they would
transport to the hardest time in their life, the time
in our life that we are so excited to try
(26:19):
to get out of. Yeah, And it's like, this is life.
The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for
something down the road to fulfill you, you're gonna miss it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
And so it's it's this really this call to be
present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it, because,
believe it or not, the worst time in your life,
one day, you're gonna miss it. You're going to miss
the lessons it taught you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I love that. I like living in the present is
so hard, but I think we all learned a lesson
because our future was kind of taken away from us,
and that was like the biggest thing for me if
there was this black hole ahead of me now and
I didn't have a future, And to learn how to
live in a present so I don't miss that so
much has been such a gift. And so when you
(27:08):
talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably
the biggest one that I took from this. Like living
in the moment a lot more.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Yeah, and allowing yourself to mess up, allowing your allowing
yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves
to others in any form or fashion, and to give
yourself permission to just be yourself. I fear for our
(27:37):
kids living in the digital age with social media, that
what makes them special is uted and it's going to
get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And
there's a story in this book about the dancing Dandelion
(27:58):
and people. People can read all about it, but it's
about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching, because
you have something to offer this world, even though people
may judge you, laugh at you. The worst thing any
of us could ever do is to silence our gift
(28:20):
just because we're trying to fit.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
In we kind of touched on this a little bit
about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we've all
feel that sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks.
But now that you are kind of seven years out,
(28:44):
I'm sure your grief is very different than it was
when it first occurred. What things are you processing now?
And I'd love to hear these things from you because
I feel like when you say them, it kind of
solidifies them, like this ideas that are my head. You're
so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to
hear what you're processing seven years later.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Gratitude.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I am seven years out. That was when you asked
that question, John, I knew you asked it to Michael.
I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life,
every sunrise, every's continue on, Michael.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
But please please keep talking. I want to I want
to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Well, no, it's just that I when we talk about
walking through grief, and I think the biggest thing that
my husband's death taught me was many of the things
you've said, Michael. But enjoying every moment being it is
it be, you know, being kind, being present, all the
things that you've been talking about, really taking time to
(29:49):
look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoying my great.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
The little things that were so busy.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
And scheduled that when my husband died and it was
so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were
left unseat, so many things that were left undone. So uh,
seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I
have three children, and I really try to soak up
(30:18):
every minute of my life their life.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
And you you know, we won't regret that. And I
think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying,
is is also just relief that I'm here because there
was a time when I grief was so heavy. I
didn't know who I was going to become after this.
I didn't know how it was going to change me.
(30:44):
I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going
to make me hard and hate the world for what
it did and questioning God and do all of those things.
And instead it has allowed me to really appreciate the
things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and
(31:05):
welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see
I'm so happy to see James running the front door
from the school bus, completely bypass me and run into
Jade's arms.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Can we talk a little bit about Jade?
Speaker 4 (31:22):
So absolutely?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
So I know that she's moved in with you.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I'm curious how you met, how that whole evolution has
taken place, that she is now integrated into your life.
And as you say, you can still hold Laura and
that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving
more than one person at once.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But I'm oh, absolutely, And I think if any listeners
are are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time.
But I think a lot of people will tell you
it exists, and just give it. Give it time you're ready,
don't rush into anything. But after I got off the
(32:06):
Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV.
She reached out and we never had like a romantic relationship.
It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for
me what I've been through. And we found just through
that a long mutual friendship, long distance. And she was
(32:29):
in Hollywood, in West Hollywood doing her own thing, and
there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah,
could there be something here? But look, you're across the
across the country. I'm in akron Olisle and I'm not
laving so over time. This was about about two years ago.
(32:50):
We met up in LA when I was out there,
and I saw her again and it was almost like
the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad.
It was it was and I was so so happy
that I felt that again. Yes, And if you would
have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago,
(33:12):
I would have said, I that feeling's gone. It's gonna
have to feel so different now. But that's the only
feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in
that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to
(33:32):
each other and developed that relationship and then, yeah, it
took the plunge two years or she's been here for
two years. And integrating a family is a challenging thing.
I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, Why
won't you marry this woman already?
Speaker 3 (33:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (33:54):
And it's all these things, And the truth is is,
you know, I'm probably going to I'm going to do.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
You want more children?
Speaker 4 (34:03):
So we've talked about that. Originally I wanted three, and
now I'm forty two.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I'm exhausted, like I mean, trust me, Michael, it
gets worse.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Oh oh oh, I know, I know, But the last
decade has been a tough one on this guy in
every which way. Just being mom, being dad, managing careers,
doing all of this, making sure you're present is exhausting.
And he is. He's so enough and so like right now,
(34:40):
it's a season of first because I've never been able
to raise James alongside somebody, so I don't have the
blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new
every day. I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's
great to have somebody who we can capture memories together
(35:02):
with and we can share all of those life moments
with and after he goes to bed, we can talk
in bed about where what we did right, what we
did wrong, you know, all of those things that just
I don't know, just make it all worth it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I love. I would have loved to have been a
fly on the wall when you first introduced this concept
to James about you dating someone, and I'm sure you
would have never done unless you had known this was
like maybe your person, and so probably didn't have it
until you met Jade. I would love to know what
you said to James, How did you introduce this concept?
Speaker 4 (35:38):
Yeah, I mean, I've it's always I mean, I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna lie. It's always been a tricky
thing because James and I have developed i mean, were one.
He's known, you know, me and him in this house
and that's it.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
And so.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge,
and it's going to be uncomfortable, and what we're all
going to find out is that it's not as hard
as we think it is. And I think that that
message is so true for starting again after loss, about
(36:18):
imagining what's it going to be like going on that
first date, What's it going to be like driving to
someone that's not my husband, What's it going to be
like when those inside jokes that we shared and those
memories that we always talked about at dinner are no
longer remembered by the person I'm now dating. They smell different,
they look different, they're all these things and you just
(36:41):
have to have to begin knowing that it's a process,
and as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding,
taking time, knowing that there's love kind of bring it
back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and
people will just I think avoiding the conversations is the
(37:04):
worst thing. I think. I think kids can handle a
lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more
resilient and more understanding and have less biased than adults
have developed over the years. So that's been my experience.
But I if that comes across like I am an expert,
I am far from that. It is it is. It
(37:26):
has been a journey.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Let me tell you you've done it well.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So Joan.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son
to another woman.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Joan.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You and I both have grandchildren, and in both of
our cases are our husbands never got to spend meet
or spend time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael.
I you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
Joan, congrats, thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
It's such a blessing. But you're right, Kathy. You know,
I think about when I asked you the question of like,
what are you processing now? Seven years later, my thought
was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You
guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do
but really, my first thing that came to my mind
is life isn't fair, and that's how these big moments.
(38:37):
So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John
would have loved that sunset. He love sunsets, and I'll
see the beautiful sunset and all it makes me sad.
Even though I'm happy I'm seeing this beautiful sunset, I
feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that
he doesn't get.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
To share it.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And it's even you know, even more magnified with things
like big, like big life events. So when my John
actually did see one of our grandchildren get born and
he got to walk one of our two daughters down
the aisle, so he did experience those big moments. But
you know, life keeps moving on, and that's what makes
(39:12):
me the sadest.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
I think I picked up a little bit when you're going, Kathy,
which was experiencing first yeah and having having say chalk
and you be able to experience all these first with
with grandkids. And I know for a fact, and I'll
(39:34):
I'll just say this is one of the hardest things
in the world, which I never would have predicted, was
sharing James with somebody else and That's the weirdest thing
because the entire time while I'm grieving, I am like, God,
can I just find somebody to share him with. When
it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a
(39:55):
violation or al or something like that. And then again
and over time it starts to feel less like that
and more normal and all of that.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
So I get that, and so for me it's a
flip side.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather.
I'm so sorry that. You know, my husband, I have
one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down
the aisle for her wedding. These adorable granddaughters that I have,
he saw one for.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
A few months.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
But those things, I feel compelled to be the grandmother,
the grandfather, to give my grandchildren the memories that you
are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort
of the next generation of that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
Yeah, And playing those dual roles is tricky, and you know,
there's a lot of responsibility and weight that we put
on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here,
and really all we have to do is just be
just be ourselves, because that's that's so enough. I mean life,
life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is dark,
(41:11):
life is all those things. But if you are able
to just understand that the dark seasons in your life
are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient
enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass.
There's light at the end of that tunnel. It could
be grandkids, it could be finding new love, it could
(41:32):
you know, just who knows. Like, let's let's stop trying
to plan everything.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, as your story says, the acorns fall to the ground,
but in the spring, new leaves come out.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
I just they always they always do. There's the whole
idea like behind the book too, was I was looking
outside of my window in my bedroom and I was
looking at this tree. And this tree has been in
my backyard forever and it was during the first year
that Lore passed, and I felt like I have one
(42:04):
of those moments where I watched this tree through all
four seasons and you know, it's growing new leaves, it's
turning you know, amber and an orange, leaves are falling
and all that, and I was just wondering, does the
tree worn? Is the tree grieving? You know, does does
the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around. Does
(42:26):
the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose
anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals,
or nourishment or shade. But it's like no, Like trees
are wise. They understand that they have to let go
in order to allow for new growth, and they it's
(42:46):
just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of
the moment, we've all been through these cycles before, they
just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than
being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are
you going to do with your life? Who are you?
What are you going to become? Where are you going
to live? How much money are you gonna make? What
(43:06):
is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am,
and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's
nothing but questions ahead. And it's like we've gone through
those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life,
and that's that's like all lie this are these seasons
of turning the page and allowing things to let go.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is
turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary
of John's death. He died on January eighteenth, and I
went to the cemetery and I happen to be alone
that day. My kids had gone the day before, and
I went by myself, and I thought, for the first time,
I felt like he wasn't part of our life, that
(43:52):
life had moved on enough that like the light that
we are creating now would have been foreign to him.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
All.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You know, three of the four kids are married. We at
that point, I had three grandchildren. Now I have five
as of like two days ago, and that like all
of a sudden, I was I got really worried that
I was going to his memory was going to fade
as a new memories backfilled. And I think that's been
(44:19):
the scariest thing for me. And I'm like still really
resistant of it.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
And that's why I think personally, people hold on to
the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the
connection to the ones of And when that pain starts
to go away, well, I should say, the pain ends
up defining the only thing that connects you and your
loved one, and so it feels like it's getting more distance,
(44:43):
but in fact you're still carrying it. It's just redefining
itself and it's it's becoming something else, and you're allowing
yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally
doesn't always feel that way.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yes, I think for me, my kids again, seven years out,
now we can laugh about some.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Of the things that went on life.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
We can bring back those memories and the pain, as
you said, Michael, is still there, but it has receded
some because there are other parts of joy, whether or
not he can share in them. My kids and I
can look at life that we have now and again
be so grateful for what we have while still saying
(45:34):
you know, oh, what would your dad say about this?
And it brings smiles to our faces. Now the pain
is still there, but you know it pain, the grief
ebbs and flows. And I love the fact that, again,
different generation, but you have James to walk hand in
hand with you through this grief and the love for
(45:57):
Laura while still building this new life for you.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
And I have the same with my children.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Yeah, there's the way I feel like we're always in
this mentality that there's limited space and and and they're
they're like if if I ended up having a second child,
I would love that kid just as much as James,
and like it's expansive, and so it's like, let's let's
(46:26):
try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know, like they,
we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love,
just like Joe and your family's growing. And it's like
you thought you were at your macs of love until
those grandkids entered the world. And it's like, let's quit
(46:49):
digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we
know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong.
Let's just keep watering.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
It just flow with like is somebody I always So
I have this thought in my mind and I don't
know if you two have it. Also that John sends
me signs sometimes when I need them. So Father is
a really hard day for us normally, well this year,
and I'm gonna cry talking about this. My oldest son,
who misses his father so much, got to be a
(47:20):
dad and it was early that they became Early, I
felt like John sent us somebody to be happy about.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys,
and how happy that makes me feel, because like that's
that's the that's the life right. It takes away and
it allows for a new life to come into your world.
And it's such a it's such a beautiful thing. I'm
so happy for it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
I get the same thing my daughter the other day,
uh said, some things went on in her life, and
she told me after the fact, she said, Dad, I
need a sign. I need a sign. And she said
with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which
was was sort of one of our things, came and
just sat on her shirt.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
And yeah, I mean I love that.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Do you ever get any signs from Laura?
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Oh, geez, I mean all the time. I mean, James
is a walking sign. I mean, for one, I'm telling
nature versus nurture nature. It's nature like he laughs, like her.
His anxiety is like her, His like OCD organizational type
A behavior is identical to her. It's it's unbelievable. And
(48:39):
I have this like, I have this faith right that
I know for certain that we're all going to see
them again. So from now until then, it's just time.
It's just time. And you know what, we've done a
good job of We've done a good job of creating
the most ridiculous story be able to share with them. Guys,
(49:03):
we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's
The Bachelor, The Bachelor at the most wild thing that
was never in our plans at all.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Let's let's not forget paradise, Michael, you, let's not forget
paradise bathing suits.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
So I got to hand to you, guys, I've.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
Got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with
for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
On that.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
Yeah, and that you know, I'm proud of us for
doing that, for still having that like zest for life
and desire to not sit still. And if people are
sitting still after lost, I'm not judging that. Take your time.
I did it too, everybody's done it. But I'm I'm
proud that the courage that it took to just get
(49:52):
out there and try something just completely.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like, yeah, thinking, like,
am I like not respecting his memory by going on.
Speaker 4 (50:05):
You know, the judgments everywhere?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, And I thought that I'm going to get that.
And then I said that to a friend of mine ago,
I'm not really He had offered it to me, and
I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to
go and do it. I you know, are people going
to think I don't like I still love him like that,
I could that I could move on, And am I
not respecting that memory by doing something like so big
and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person.
And my friend said, oh my god, you're being ridiculous.
(50:29):
John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing,
gregarious person in the world. And I'm like, oh my god,
he would love She's right, he would have loved this.
So I was like, literally that moment I made the decision,
I'm like, he loved this. I'm not not respecting him.
I know.
Speaker 5 (50:42):
I have a lot of questions one day, want too, Yeah,
so my husband, because you know, obviously, this is nothing
any of us would have done had we had we
had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief
and having to build a new life.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
But for me, it was very life affirming.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
The whole experience of Bachelor's life affirming, and frankly, all
three of us are people that are building lives through
the grief.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
We are finding.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Ways with our families to love life and love each
other and love others.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
And who could ask for more?
Speaker 4 (51:20):
Right that's it exactly.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
And with that, if.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Someone is listening right now and they have a friend
or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope
that this has helped you.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
This podcast has helped you.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
And you can also get Let's tell everybody where you
can get Michael's book where the Wildheart Grows on the
Wildheart Grows dot com. Is that right, Michael?
Speaker 4 (51:43):
Yeah, yeah, we decided to sell online The Wildheart Grows
dot Com. You can order it there. Shipments are going
out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how
much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good,
it's so beautiful. I'm sad now that like I'm not
(52:05):
creating it anymore, and now it's out into the world
volume two.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Here you got stories waiting in the background.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Well, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned.
And I appreciate you guys having us on. I could
do this all day.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, I think we could.
Speaker 4 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
You are an amazing, amazing man, and your stories are incredible,
both the ones in the book and your life story
that you were sharing with us today.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
It's a comedy, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
You've made us laugh.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
Thank you Yeah, you too.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
So are you like us and have lost a spouse,
finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and
need some help.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All
the info is in the show notes. Follow us on
socials too, Please
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
love is the main objective.
Host
Jana Kramer
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