Show Me Your Narcissism

Jana might be pregant.  We will find out live on air when she decides to take a pregnancy test.  How does Mike feel about  all of this?

To try and figure out what a narcissist is, we talk to Dr. Ramani Durvasula who is an expert on the disorder. What do you do if you're in a relationship with a narcissist?

Plus we talk to Jana’s friend Lauren Alaina about her AMAZING Dancing with the Stars performance.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down and radio podcast special guests Sarah Gretzky, Hello, Hello,
Hi honey, I haven't seen you and forever so excited
to catch up a long line down, tell me everything.
It's still weird, by the way, looking over and seeing
your engagement room. Is it? It is? When when we

(00:23):
were kind of catching up in the hallway earlier, I
was like, oh, this is weird. Did it catch your eye?
It did? Yeah? I tried a red color. I'm not
loving it. I feel like now when you have a
ring on your hand, you can't do certain colors, and
red is just not happening right now. It's okay, I
love it. It's all right, But I love you, I know.
So what's going on? Plans? Oh my god, what's going on?

(00:43):
A lot? Making? Moved, traveling so much, we've made We've
made some moves. Dress Oh yeah, dress is done. Um
I got a wedding planner thrilled. Couldn't be happier. Um.
She They've done a lot like everything. Did you pick
the band? Oh? Yeah? Band video photo? There? Did you

(01:03):
get my picks with the bridesmaid's dresses to me? Yeah?
I texted you because you sent me like, which one
do you like and I said the top oh yeah, yeah,
Oh sorry, sorry I thought you met you sent yeah unclear.
I cannot decide on the color. Um, oh yeah it's Sarah.
I mean yeah, I think just for like dancing reasons.

(01:26):
I'm a dancing queen. I can't be bothered by like
a train and a so but no, I cannot decide
on the color. Okay, like in general, well, what's the
color of the wedding? Unclear? I cannot decide. Didn't you
just want like black and white? Yeah? But then it's
like is that two boring? And then it's like classy?
I know, everyone keeps saying that super classy and then

(01:47):
just throw in like a pop somewhere. Well, I wanted
them in white, like I wanted all the bridesmaids and
white love. They were like not happening, none shop and Mic.
I just thought it would be so because I wanted
to be like Heaven, like, I just want it to
be so like and again just the consensus was a no, why,
um why? I think they were just like I know,

(02:08):
but they're like, really, bitch, we're not trying to stand
up in white next to you while you're in white.
You know. Well it's not like the most well. They
also had dresses like tailor made to like there figures
you know, doesn't ever ready. You don't buy dress off
the rack and not get it tailored some correct. No,
rides maid dresses fit a little differently, like on purpose. No,

(02:34):
I want And that's the thing is, I was like,
I want them to look good. It's a vibe, Like
it's a whole vibe. They're part of it. So I'm like,
I don't need them showing up looking like Frumpleston like
I needed to. I want them to look chic and sexy.
Only don't do red. What about black with a white embellishment?
Black is like leading that. I think a simple black

(02:54):
would be really pretty. Oh oh tie though, No, I'm
in white. Yeah, you're contrast, right, you're in white ties
and black bridesmans are in black creemsmans are in white.
Oh contrast contrast. That's kind of cool. But I kind
of thought it would be like super sick if the

(03:15):
guys were in black velvet. Mm hmm. No, no, because
of like where we are and like the time, I
don't know. I just saw in London, I mean, oh
my god, I would I just saw the Ralph Lauren
fashion show during fashion Week, and it was just like
it was like Gatsby vibes. I was just like feeling it.
That's loved it. Yeah, I love it. Oh my god,

(03:39):
you're like the first person to be like, yeah, a guy,
because I feel still have your tax. Yeah, I thought
I wrote all over it. That's my wedding tax. You
wrote all over his wedding talks. I did with the
black sharpie. But how did you see it? It was
he It was okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, sorry, but
now I have a black I was angry and I

(04:00):
got angry with the black sharp I'm shocked. You know,
I'm shocked. That's all you did, So it wasn't that's
somehow everything all stands back to all this stuff. Oh no, no, no, no,
I know it'll be fun. It's gonna be a time.
What is it six six months? Okay, you already said
the month. It's be so fun, so fun. Can I
wear black? Yes? Or maybe I'll wear a deep green

(04:25):
love love deep emerald green love that Yeah, I love
that too. See. I wish I could tell everyone to
wear black because I just think that would look so cool.
But I'm not going to be that Brian. And everyone
loves black I know, so that's why I'm I'm like, yeah,
where it? Where it? Love it? What do women when

(04:45):
it's a black tie event? Do women usually have to
stick to black? No? I just feel like it means
more of like a gown. It's it's it's black tie.
I think it means long and it just means for
a guy. Yeah, because what's black tie optional that the
guy just doesn't have to wear a tie? I mean,
I have no idea. And in fact, we've been invited

(05:08):
some charity gala next month in Beverly Hills and my
wife's kind of freaking out because she has sun dresses.
She doesn't have wear your nicest suit. That's what I
was talking. Not a tux, but where your nicest suit?
So what does she she have to wear? A long?
So confusing for a woman, Like if a man shows
up in a tux, like I mean a suit, It's like, okay,
where can I go? I can go pant suit, I
can go skirt, I can go dress, I can go down.

(05:31):
I think she'd be fine. I wouldn't say a sun dress,
but like an evening dress with like it could be
a short middie and nitty is good. She can she
can wear middy. I wouldn't wear long for that, but
for a wedding, ED wear long, yeah, middie at that
down mid calf. But then again, no, I think a
lot of people get that confused, and I think they'll
still wear the very fancy middie. I know. I kept

(05:53):
finding dresses that I liked for bridesmaids, but they weren't
quite to the ground and I was like, no, I
can't do that. I can't have them showing up like
half asked. Yeah, because I feel like people like, you know,
Mike's going to show up and show out, you know,
so you're so excited to wear your talk. I love
where is your talk? Even though it's in the closet.
Even though I don't have a lot of opportunities to
dress up right, I don't know. I don't wear a
shut every day to work and stuff. I love. There's

(06:15):
nothing more I love than buying like a suit, like
going and getting custom made suit. It's like my favorite
thing to do, sitting down looking at a little fabrics
and the button details and the thread details. I love it.
That willpel everything. I love it. That is hilarious. You
guys can go get like matching last year for my birthday,
I'm doing it, but it was like two years ago.

(06:39):
But I was like, Jane's like, what do you want
for your birthday? I was like, I just want to
go get a new suit made. And she's like that's great,
but why what are you going to do with it?
In your closets? We have enough carpet stuff and you
know events, what's carpet? Do you wear a suit? Do
you could just totally change your Oh yes, don't forget

(07:07):
to get out there and vote. I feel like you've
got a lot of people behind you on this one.
I mean Tanya and Becca have like they're they're like
doing sweeps on Kiss FM. T is obsessed. Also Tana,
any downtime she has, she's voting with other people's email addresses.
Oh god, I don't have that. I bet she's doing
it right now. But she's actually you can see from
the studio we can see her staring at her phone.

(07:29):
I bet she's voting. Right I'm gonna start doing that.
I'll be your like Tanya, like you know, I like
knows like how to be a week and i'd like, oh,
I forgot to vote this week? Have you voted for
like twice? Oh? I can't. But it's fine. We don't
have we don't have seacrests behind us, and that's okay.
It's okay. We have behind that wine dumb we do

(07:51):
that market Eastern behind us. Well they also do scribing
into so we're screwed. But it's fine. It's all good
on Together News. I might be pregnant. What the wait,
Tori screaming I called it? She did, which is so
weird if I didn't mention it. And now Tanya's wait, wait, wait, wait,

(08:13):
if you're pregning my wedding, like what are we gonna do?
And that a bridesmaid doesn't matter, but like show, oh
my gosh, I called it. You did call it, but
I don't know. I'm just I'm but you had fish
like a week ago. I'm so stressed. I know, so
I don't. But here's the thing bothers me is that

(08:34):
Michael Michael never got too. I'm sorry, yes, And I've
literally said to him, Michael, make sure you get checked, Michael,
make sure you get checked, and he's like, ya, I'll
do it, I'll do it. I'll do it. Yeah, and
now I'm late. I have a pit. I have a
literal pit in my stomach. And it doesn't matter a

(08:57):
couple I'm always on time. I don't. I lost track
of how many times since I've gotten assect me that
Jane said, you know what, I really want another kid.
I really want another kid. Now she's like, this is
all your fault. I know, I giving me. I don't
need to have another baby. Jesus is getting too old,

(09:18):
Jesus Christ. Here's the thing though, So Tanya still has
her mouth like I don't know. I'm just saying usually
I'm very so, so why don't we know? Like, why
don't we figure it out? Well? So the other day
we're eating casually having dinner and I go, um, so
I might be packed. She's like, I want a slushy

(09:40):
and he's like okay. And I said, would you be
upset about that? Oh, she's playing games. It's not games.
And he's like, well, I wouldn't necessarily want another one.
I was like, so you'd be upset, I said I wouldn't.
I wouldn't be upset either way. I would to be
upset if we had one. I wouldn't be upset if

(10:01):
we didn't, But what a blessing to have another child? Yeah?
We make I mean we make damn good looking babies.
I would love to I would love But I'm just
saying it's worried. So he's like, when should we take
a test? And so probably in the next tonight. Yeah.
I was thinking on the podcast, like can I just
go run and get it one now? Next week? Sure? Yeah? Wait,

(10:24):
we just postmates one, even postmates of pregnant. I'm sure
you can post you can post me anything. Okay, hold on,
wait what did it show up now if you're a
few days later? Um? Yeah, because it usually it shows
like every time I took the first one, like it
was like six days before I'm a miss period is
when it would always show up, so like it would

(10:45):
show up now because I'm like, hold on, because he's
getting like this reaction makes me think that like you
wouldn't be happy. All he wants to do is party
at my wedding. Okay, that's all he's worried about. He
just just concerned. It's all about the wedding. It is
all about the wedding. Oh my god. Okay, So like

(11:06):
let's see, you're going to be like um September you guys. Yeah,
Tor just asked if she needs an I D to
get a pregnancy that today. I can't wait. That is,

(11:27):
she's literally running right now to like the nearest, like
can you get because can you get one of the
whole fits? I don't know. I don't think you ken.
I think you can only get a public CVS WG Greens. No,
no, no no, we're not. I think you need an idea
for like but I think also now you can. Yeah,

(11:48):
I don't know. That's that's so funny. Okay, hold on here.
I thought we were going to come in here talk
about like just not this so I mean market dr
Romanys gonna be on in a few minutes and then
after that, I'm thinking we send you en to the
bathroom hundred I think we and do it in here?

(12:12):
Can we just do it? Bring the microphone? No go
pee in a cup, bring it in here, and then
put the thing so we can all just be in
this together. We need some sort of a big bowl. Wait,
but is it going to show up? I feel like
you need more time, which promise because mine, what are
you doing? Michael whoa? I'm listening. He's picking his two
watch you grabbed your bag to throw up, and I

(12:34):
was like, are you okay? Are you getting nauseous? Um? Yes? So,
oh my god, I know episode that's the thing. Are
you going to get tested after this though? Even if
it's because I think it's still something you should see
if because there's no lack of sex in our marriage
right now. And that's the wait, hold on, I might

(12:55):
be confused. Why does what's the problem that he needed
to get tested again? He needed test to see if
you make sure your tubes are clear? Yeah? I got
I got tested. I was supposed to get tested twice
and get tested once I was satisfied with the results
of the first one. They still wanted me to come
back agamin. But it's fine. There were found one dead
one and the one with no motility, right, so like

(13:16):
that's good enough for me. And it's been ten years.
This is Jane and I and we were even talking
about this when it came up. I was like, you know,
we've talked about on here, how we go in phases
with intimacy and sex and sometimes there's some some issues
around it, but we have not had an issue for
a while. Oh my god, these horny like that's definitely

(13:37):
been like the one area that's remained the most consistent
and strongest over the last two You know what, that's
pretty amazing, and like, let's say it happens. It's like
this baby was made out of love. Yeah you know,
I mean, not that they all weren't, but if you're
as like connected right now, Like it's kind of like
I almost don't want to know though, because if it's not,
then I are going to be like kind of excited.
I know, I kind of would love another getting back

(13:59):
in that chair and getting reversal. So they getting tested
is the worst because you've got to bring it in.
We didn't. You don't have to do it there. I
actually I think I threw away the cup. The cup
made it with me from l A to the in
the move to Nashville. But it's got to be warm,
but it's got to be within thirty minutes. Yes, I know.

(14:24):
It's the worst. And then when you hand it to them,
the woman gave me a look like seriously, you're handing
me this like you work here, your job felt like
a real schmuck. Oh my god, I'm pitting out so hard,
like in a good way, in a in an interesting way.
If it's not, would you be upset? Did I not

(14:47):
remember what I said? I said if we do, I
won't be upset. If it's not, I won't be upset.
The only really upsetness is going to be if it's not.
If you're not pregnant, jan is really disappointed. I will
say this part of me, just with the excitement that
we're making this into now, is going to cause me
to be a little upset if we're not, only because
like Jace, he's it's such a perfect gage right now,

(15:10):
nine months. He's exhausted with two. I love you find
a way so tired, But it's just that his mark.
You just just do it, man. But I don't want
a third. No, I don't either. And so that you
know what a third means, like new plane seats, you know,
you're your seating arrangements. I five if not a practical

(15:32):
amount of people four dinner for a theme park, Yeah,
you have to think is never going to go on
a roller coaster. So if it's me and the three kids,
it's doing the front in the back. We're good. Mom's
the fifth wheel. That works out great for you guys.
Oh my god, so we'll see Sarah. When are you

(15:55):
baby making um soon? I mean like, yeah, why don't
you just like hold off until next year? No? No,
what's the difference between now and then? A lot? A lot,
that's a long time. Okay, I don't mean n the baby.
Sorry sorry, I mean like maybe like but Mike again

(16:16):
has like a very warped sense of time because when
we talk to people like police thing the other day
and I made a poll like, hey, should Mike do
it police stuff? And there were some people like he's
thirty two, Like you're not, You're so young. You're so young.
It's just crazy, Like he's just like it's for you
would want him to believe to be a police officer.
I know. I just was saying, whatever he wants to day,

(16:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, no of courtunately, no, no, no, whatever
he wants to do, I would like because he was
saying like that's something he has always wanted to do,
so I'm like, go do it. He's like I'm so old,
and I'm like, oh no no, but that's not what's
stopping me. It's again everything else that we have going
on right now. But you would be the oldest, don't
you think amongst your like group of cadets in the action. Well,

(16:58):
I will say there's a guy, a childhood buddy and
my dad's that served in the fire department with my
dad for decades and when he retired from the fire department,
he went over and became a police officer. Just started
from shout at the beginning, just to kind of kind
of double dip on his Yeah, what a nice man.
He's a great and he's hilarious and a great man too.

(17:20):
Side note. I ordered you a bookmark I did. We
were in church together day and it was crazy. We
haven't been to church and probably gosh long long long time,
Yeah together at least like it's been a minute, um.
And the message was all about anxiety, and so wow,
this is interesting that the first time we come back
it's you know, and there's a book that he recommended

(17:42):
called because he his she was in fifth grade, sixth grade. Um,
his daughter has really bad anxiety and how they've been
able to work through it, and so he read this
book called How to Raise Warry Free Girls. So I
ordered you a copy. I thought of you, that's cute.
That's all you want for your kids is for them

(18:03):
to be worry free right, live care Well, he was
just saying, like how he's like his daughter just had
like debilitating anxiety, wouldn't do anything. And then you know
through the year and you know, barely want to go
to school, barely want to go to school. And then
at the end of the year, after they've been working
through the anxiety and therapists and you know, praying and
all that. Um, there was auditioning for the Annie and

(18:25):
you know he's thinking, you know, she's just going to
audition to be like one of the girls girls, and
she's like, no, I want to be Annie. And he
showed a clip of her singing Annie, and we were
all everybody, I'm even watching him. I would have never
thought she would have been from where she was at.
She had a beautiful but that's funny. Ali wasn't Annie

(18:45):
just a few months ago. Yeah, and the same show. Yeah,
she was one of the She's fantastic, but she that
is her happy place on stage? Is that kind of
all she wants to do. She wants to be on
stage at all times. She's in she's in rehearsals for
a play right now. It's been really interesting fitting in
all of her duties in eighth grade, all of her
homework and all of these rehearsals for Adam's family, and

(19:07):
but she's in heaven. I love that for her side. Now, Easton,
when we talked about the stuff going on with your lady,
your wife, um, our girlfriend, Leslie texted us and said,
that sounds like he's a fair Um what's it called again,
he's trying to a fair dating, like trying to find
someone to she has. She had a word for it.

(19:28):
I can't remember what it was, but yeah, so that's
something where it's like it's totally not inappropriate at all.
So she's stopped a quick update. She's like, I'm just
gonna just stop responding to this dude because they don't
like directly work together, so it's like it's gonna be
an awkward thing at work. Uh. And um, he's a
fair hunting. That's a fair hunting. Listening to the podcast

(19:50):
till Eastan, the dude contacting his wife is crossing a
major line. Not okay, the guy is married and is
telling her how unhappy he's with his wife. That's called
a fair hunting. Yeah, Shed she kind him off and
he sent like a couple like weird messages. Like the
next day, it was like um because like he saw
her work and was like, oh wait you up to
this Weekend's like, oh, nothing, just I'm feeling kind of sick.
I'm just gonna stay home. And then like I think

(20:11):
she posts on Instagram that she and I went to
Disneyland and he's like, oh, feeling really sick. Huh like
that kind of thing. Oh my god, you know, and
like that was like upsetting. And so it's like Alison said,
like I don't know this guy anything, Like we're not friends.
I don't know. He's trying to make me feel like
I owe him something that that I don't. So just
like stopped and he kept messaging. But that was like
a couple of days ago and has hasn't lost two days.

(20:32):
Hit him with the FAMI delete. I was gonna say,
like just block this time, time to block. Hit him
with the three I know. Well, thanks for that day.
Tories on the phone from the pharmacy, Tori O, Tori,
I'm here to I'm behind. Did you did you have
to use your I D you know? So I listen

(20:54):
you guys, I don't know how this whole thing works,
Like do you need I'm curly, Tori. I a Halloween candy.
Let me tell you what to do? Where are you
to anyone? One? Okay, Tori? Just walk in, grab a
pregnancy test and a bottle of water and some candy,

(21:15):
and just leave. I think, do you have wait? Do
you have a Do you have a ring? Put it
on your left finger and make you feel so much better?
The amount of times I've walked in not married. Do
you want to know that? I literally pointed with my
left hand so that they could see I had some
kind of gold band on my finger. Oh my god,
one over there, that's twenty one. That one over there.

(21:37):
The ringeae to get the first response with the lines,
not the ones that say yes or no. Get the
first response six days before you're in this period. I
feel like I'm closed. Oh my god, Tories, like, here's
the loube. There's a lot of loop there. Next. No,

(21:59):
I'm really gonna to ask her again, Torytory, you're a
college educated woman. You can find them. Don't ask I
love that, Sarah, sit get some candy us. Well, no,
you don't want it? Not then you want to You
don't want to roll up with one test. You gotta
act like you just like are stalking up so you
grabbed like some waters like you guys. They can't believe it.

(22:19):
Aff again, and there's like fifteen people in mine at
the farm. Not that hard. We don't have all day tory.
There By the I'm trying, I'm you guys, I'm not kidding,
I am looking okay. There by their first response they're
usually they actually, what story you at? I'm a CDs okay,
so cvs. They might be locked up here in l

(22:40):
A because they're expensive. I'm actually thinking that because they're
definitely not. Oh my god, you're gonna have to ask
someone to unlock the thing for you. Again. I love
that the tequila and the pregnancy text and the razors
are behind hard. It's so annoying that the razor three.

(23:07):
It's help all right, okay, we're in action, good luck,
all right, see you Sam. I'm gonna drink some water,
but can you grab another smart water? Thanks? Love you
by all right? Well to be continued. Finished listening to
the show to see the real real live pan on

(23:28):
a stick. I'm so nervous, are you what if we
like what if you mean like in like some of
so random like you're not, but like like Danielle's like,
I'll take one for fun and like or like Tori
or Tanya. Um, well, so stay tuned. Um, we're having

(23:52):
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at the top of the homepage and type in Janna.
That's dance dot Com. Enter Janna. Hi, It's Dr Romney.
How are you. I'm good? Thank you? Um. So you
have a book coming out. UM it's called Don't You
Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in an
Era of Narcissism? Um? Why why did you write this book?

(26:48):
Where was where's your connection to narcissism. So I've been
working in narcissism as an area for over ten years
and it was sort of one of those things I
was working on quietly, and then there was an election
everybody started talking about it. But in having those conversations, yeah,
there's a bigger cultural issue around narcissism, and whether it's
how the president behaves or other you know, other famous

(27:11):
people behavior social media, it's really bled into regular people's lives.
You can't go into a parking lot nowadays without people
screaming at each other or someone screaming don't you know
who I am? On an airplane or at a hotel clerk.
So it seems to be something that's bubbled up into
American actually global culture I'm seeing now, and it's really
taking a toll on people and all of that cumulatively.

(27:32):
I've written another book called Should I Stay or Should
I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist that was
about narcissism and the intimate spaceboyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, because
a lot of relationships were sort of crumbling under that.
But after that book, I got a lot more questions.
People said, you know what my husband's fine, but it's
my mom who's the narcissist, Or it's my boss who's
the narcissist. This book takes on all of the different

(27:54):
kinds of narcissistic relationships, but also makes us to take
a really hard look at our culture and say, how
are we all contributing to this? And how are we
all suffering? Dr romani At what age do does it
kind of transition from maybe someone just having some character
defects or being just an a hole or whatever into actual, full,

(28:15):
full blown narcissism. You know, I actually tell people, especially parents,
I'm like, put the brakes. I'm calling this the name
until actually a person is probably into the early twenties.
Until that age of personality, it's almost like a sweater
that's too big for someone still kind of growing into it.
By you can look at someone, how someone's acting and saying, yeah,

(28:37):
this is probably going to be a pattern. I wouldn't
use this word with a seventeen year old because I'm
big as a mother of teenagers, I could say most
teenagers are awful. So yeah, so that's something where you
it's like, okay, after that time, when yeah, to wait
and see, yeah, do you do you find that our
women is it is it like more men are narcissists

(28:57):
or is it more women or do you find that
to be different way more men are narcissistic. I'm guessing
it's probably a D twenty to be honest with you.
And the big spread is how how the difference between
how men and women are socialized. Women are taught to
talk about their emotions, They're taught to make stronger relational

(29:18):
ties from an early age. Um. They're not taught to
be as competitive, they're not as authoritarian. They have very
different kinds of relationships with their parents. And boys are
really taught to be competitive. Little boys are told don't
cry your you know, boys don't cry. Girls are like cool,
you can cry, like cry this one out. So we
do We do teach them differently, we socialize them differently.

(29:39):
There's been a lot of talk in the media about
toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is sort of, you know, I
don't know, sort of a pithy way to say narcissism
to be honest with you, so it but is it
going to catch up? Yes, I would say I want
into narcissistic women all the time. I have a lot
of men who come into my practice and say, what
have I done? Who have I married? And these women
are very narcissistic. Lots of people out there at narcissistic mothers.

(30:03):
So I mean, I honestly think that in the next
ten to twenty years, we're going to see those scales
starting meeting out quite a bit. I guess, like, what
really truly makes a narcissist? Though, that's what I was
gonna ask, Like it gonna be a dumb question, but
what is a narcissist? It's a great question, because I
think a lot of people think they're narcissists. Is someone
who's really stuck up and loves themselves. It's not facts.

(30:26):
In fact, it's the opposite of that. They're actually really
quite self loathing. So at the core of it, these
are people who lack empathy, who are really entitled. They're
really arrogant. They're constantly seeking admiration or validation. Look at me,
tell me I'm great. They're really superficial. They're vain, they
are very prone to rage, they're very controlling. Um, they're

(30:47):
also very charming, they're very charismatic, they're very confident. But ultimately,
at the core of it. Believe it or not, they're deeply,
deeply insecure, and that's why they're always trying to overcompensate.
I said, listen, if somebody's really good at something, they're
not going to brag about it. They're gonna be confident
like I know, I know this, I got this. I
don't need to behave like a fool and suck all
the oxygen out of the room. However, if I'm insecure,

(31:10):
I'm going to come out punching. I'm gonna come out bragging,
and I'm gonna get really irritable if things don't go
my way. It's the no empathy that is sort of
the shocking part of it, because they truly it's not
that they are selfish and have not they don't really
even understand what it would be to have empathy. Is
that right? No, Absolutely, you nail that. That's actually really

(31:32):
well put. I think where a lot of people will
sit in my office and say, I don't get it.
Are you telling me they just don't care? And I
look at them, I'm like, yeah, I'm telling you they
just don't care. Then people say, what's wrong with me?
I said, nothing's wrong with you. They don't care about anybody. Again,
it's the insecurity. So they really don't care. They don't
have empathy, And I got to be honest with you.
Every week I get emails and calls from people who

(31:55):
say I'm narcissistic. The word is getting out that we
kind of suck and I actually want a relationship, and
they want a relationship, they said, but you know, I'm
gonna be honest with you. I really don't care about
feelings and emotions and stuff. Can you teach me how?
I gotta tell you it's hard to do as an
aftermarket add on at thirty five to be teaching people

(32:15):
stuff they should have learned when they were six. And
so even a self aware narcissist is a horrible thing
to witness because they kind of realized they don't really care.
That lack of empathy is what makes it so invalidating
to have any kind of relationship with them. Is it
on a spectrum? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely on a spectrum. Not
only is it on a spectrum, there's different kinds. Like listen, everybody,

(32:38):
all of us have a few of those benign and
narcissistic friends. Like they were a little bit too instagrammy
and they were a little bit to edit my picture,
and they're a little bit too self me. You know,
there's always that person, but you know, at the core
of it, and they're not really good at empathy, but
they're not bad people, and like it's always good to
have a few of them on ice for a dinner
party because they sort of jazz things up. Definitely not

(32:59):
something you take problems too. But at the most severe end,
we have malignant narcissists that almost feel like psychopaths, like
they manipulate, they exploit, they coerce, they bully, they oppressed,
like they're really really dreadful, if not dangerous people. And
then there's other sort of your classical narcissist who sort
of like the showy, braggy, you know, charming, charismatic, kind

(33:24):
of is the center of tension person but gets grumpy
when things don't go there where people are noticing them.
And then you have sort of that stealth narcissist, which
is the covert narcissist. And these are the people who
are always victims. They're like, how come nothing ever goes
my way? You know, I would have been one of
the great ones if I had been born ten years later,
you know, things don't go my way because people are

(33:44):
threatened by me. Those are narcissists and people kind of
people think they're pathetic, but actually that constantly being a victim.
They're very entitled. They're like, you know what, I'm too
good for a nine to five, so I'm going to
stay home. So they're the person who kind of lives
in mom's basement and it somehows waiting for someone to
joe up with a check, I guess, but they really
do believe that they shouldn't have to work. Now I
have a question, And you know, it's interesting. Jenna and

(34:07):
I talked a lot about the current events and also
what's current in our relationship, and so you know, I
hear a lot of talk about narcissism nowadays, obviously, and
a lot of the traits that you're talking about right now,
you know, And I feel these little flags coming up
in my brain and I'm like, oh, I do some
of that, or I've done that. I'm this way sometimes

(34:28):
And like last night, for example, Jan and I were
kind of having an argument and you know, discussing something
and I and and maybe this is just my upbringing
as as a male, but I find it physically impossible
or very very difficult at times to actually comprehend maybe
where Janna is coming from in a situation like to me,

(34:50):
it doesn't make rational sense. And I'm like, I literally,
like last night, I had a hard time finding the
empathy for Janna's point of view because it just did
not make sense to me. And so so here's what
I was trying to tell him, that it doesn't need
to make sense to you, but that's still I'm still
allowed to have those feelings. So my big question would

(35:13):
be did you try? Did you try to understand her feelings?
Because empathy, it's got two pieces of empathy, is not
a one way street. Okay, it's not just I get
your feelings, but it's also you taking a minute and
reflecting on yourself and saying, is how I'm acting now
uncomfortable for her? And because even if you were to

(35:33):
say something like you know, I'm going to be honest
with you, I'm struggling with this, like with understanding this,
But I can look at your face and see that
you're hurt, and so I know I love you or
care about you. Whatever you're feeling is for this person,
and I don't want you to be hurt, so how
can you help me help you at this point? So
it's it's not you may listen. We don't always get

(35:55):
someone else's feelings, right, I don't understand. Sometimes when somebody
is I don't understand. I'm like client sometimes not the
scratched in my head thinking they are what are they thinking?
But I can read their faith and they're in pain.
So this is real. And one of the worst things
we can never do to someone is judge their emotions
because we don't get to It's it's almost like telling
someone else you must be hungry. How the hell are

(36:16):
you supposed to know that they're hungry. They're the ones
that there there it's their stomach. Let them figure it out.
So you can't anticipate that. But making a good faith
attempt at saying I actually don't intellectually get it, but
I see it, so please help because I don't. I
love you, I don't want you to be hurt. I
don't want you to be hurting. I don't want you
to be in pain. I want you to feel understood.
We're not always going to be understood. Someone may not understand.

(36:38):
For example, let's say somebody I don't go through a breakup,
and six months later they're still obsessing about the breakup
and the relationship only lasted three months. Everyone around them
might say I don't get it. I'd say to them,
you may not get it, but this is real for them,
and the best thing we can do is just be
their attempt to get it. But more than anything, see
that our friend is hurting, and that sometimes is all

(36:59):
the antidote you need, and that's what you can keep
a relationship going. I know with with my partner, he'll say,
you know, honey, I don't get it, but and he'll
just put his arms around me and and that's it,
and I'm good. Why is it so hard, though, for
him to like do that, because I think he's trying
to intellectualize it. You know, never make a feeling intellectual,
because it's not it's not a thought, it's a feeling.

(37:21):
It's like being hungry. Like I said, you don't know
if someone else is hungry, and you have to trust
in good faith that they are. And let's say you
just date an enormous meal and they say I'm still hungry.
You can't say you can't be hungry. We just ate
so much and just that they're hungry. You have to
run role with that. So it is about trusting the
other person, and the arrogance comes from thinking like, no,
they can't be feeling that, because that's only one person's experience.

(37:43):
So it's really about stepping out of yourself and saying
this is possible feeling in this way. I don't have
to understand it. I simply need to be here to
accept it. It's a difference between understanding and accepting, right.
And the thing is, ultimately I do end up getting
to that point, but it is I mean literally last night,
but Janna had to like walk out of the room

(38:04):
because she was getting so frustrated that I was physically
like an agony trying to comprehend, trying to understand. He
didn't need to understand. I just I didn't need I
was just like, that's might just say I'm sorry you
feel that way, how can I maybe help you in
the future or something, And it just he just physically

(38:24):
could not do it. And I was like, I cannot
hold your hand through this right now because I'm getting
frustrated and I'm walking out of the room, right And
so that idea like and I would I would want
to know then what happened in your childhood that understanding
became so important because that goes deeper, you know, because
it drives that need that somehow in your early environment
with your parents or caregivers or even your siblings, there

(38:44):
was a need to get it and that might have
given you power in the family system or comfort in
the family system. These icebergs were really, really deep, and
if you if I were my client and I was
working with you, I would really want to spend a
time saying, why is it so important to get it?
Why can't you just feel it? I mean, forgive me
for using sort of a I don't know, like a
bit of a sexy example, but it's trying to understand

(39:07):
your orgasm. How often you say, wow, that's quite good,
and I'm feeling like ramped up? You like, no, that
felt really good. You know. You don't try to deconstruct feelings,
whether they're good ones like orgasms or eating a great meal,
or they're bad ones. You just roll with the feeling.
And I think that in a relationship with somebody's having
a rough time of it, it's being in the moment
with they're feeling, and it could very well be that

(39:29):
you're uncomfortable with her discomfort, and by trying to understand it,
you're creating distance between you and her rather than closeness.
Because you're uncomfortable, she's fine with her feeling. You're the
one who's struggling. Are certain types of women attracted to
narcissistic men because I repeatedly and very extractive? So what

(39:51):
is that? What is that? Narcissists? Almost? I mean, I'm
going to use a heterosexual paradigm here, so forgive me
and give you a men, men, women, women doesn't matter.
The narcissist always gets the girl. And that's because they're
more clever, they're more charming, they're more extroverted, they tell
a better story, they're much better at dating. Um. They

(40:14):
can be so attentive in the beginning that you feel
like you're the only person in the world, and the
once they've got your attention, it's like putting a butterfly underglass,
like they're not interested anymore. Now. You'd like to think,
you know, first time, shame on you know, shame on you.
Second time, shame on me. But some people keep doing
it because what they'll often say is like, if somebody's
not really exciting, in the beginning, I'm going to get

(40:35):
bored and I'm not interested. But a lot of it
also comes from early family stuff that many times people
will say, you know what, I had to really pedal
fast and hard to get my parents attention, and to
this day, to me, love means I got to work
hard to keep someone's attention, and people will really keep
replaying that dynamic over and over again. I've got to
be honest with you. Sometimes where it turns around, somebody

(40:57):
gets really really hurt by a narcissis, I mean, they
get destroyed by one, and then they go date or
falling with someone that ten years before they would have
thought was boring and they find that, wow, this boring
thing is really hot, like I am down with this,
And but they really had to kind of go through that,
they had to get hurt to work through that earlier conflict,
to realize they were working through earlier kinds of stuff

(41:20):
to keep winning this person over. And remember, for a
lot of people out there, they're prevailing self story is
I'm not enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not tall enough,
I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough. And narcissists
reinforced that idea of not enough. So then people it's
almost like a job then like I'm gonna lose weight,
or I'm gonna be sexier, or I'm going to make
more money, or I'm gonna get a promotion. I'm going

(41:42):
to win this person over. Like I said, that's often
a story that starts in people's family of origin, and
then they keep playing that getting this person over is
really winning. It's really hitting me hard because it's like
I always want to, Oh, I'll feel so good if
I just do. I'll bend like a pretzel to get
them back. You feel like you're breaking amy. Is that
like your goal? You think, But she's nailing it with winning.

(42:03):
It's like, so good when I get them back, and
I'll be so happy, and this time it'll be good.
And I read I've read like twenty books on narcissism,
and what's really fascinating is they are textbook like. The
books look like and then this will happen, and it did,
and then this will happen and it did, and so
now we just now you need to see why you

(42:24):
do that, why you go to those men? Did you
call the therapist? Mike hast sent me has been another
one today and I feel like I'm getting a little
something something right now. I know you need to like
figure out why you keep picking, because I do agree,
like it's on me now and I even and I
have been hurt so bad, so bad, so bad, and
I thought, oh, I won't do that again, and I've

(42:45):
done it two more times. Yeah. Can narcissists attract each other?
Do you? You know? I'm saying, is it possible for
gonna direct each other and let me? And I really
like the show? Can you not? I'm the path. I've

(43:06):
read like a lot of books. I'm just curious because
I know you're all pretty self aware. I just think
that narcissism is so prevalent and it's become sort of
a catch phrase. But they are truly crazy makers because
you feel crazy, you're like and they kind of tell
you you're crazy, and then you think, am I? Am

(43:28):
I crazy? Like? Wait? Am I the one? And I
think sometimes they're right, and I'll go, oh, if I
just do this, then we'll be good. If I just
do this will be okay. I feel like that's a
lot of a lot of relationships so too now, But
they keep moving the gold post. No, it's not it
shouldn't be. No, if you're ever in a relationship and

(43:50):
you feel that confused, you've got to get out suddenly.
What you're describing is what we call gaslighting. Gaslighting is
where you keep challenging someone's reality over and over and
over again to the point where they feel like they're
losing their mind. And in mental health, gas lighting qualifies
as emotional abuse. I mean, it's no different than sort
of rounding up a fist and punching someone in the face.
It's exactly the same thing, just leaves a different bruise.

(44:11):
And so when somebody challenges your reality, not okay someone
and are strong and like if if a man treats
them badly, they go at this and they're out where,
I'm like, let me come back for ten ten times
of this. This is this is great, let me try
that again. It's but it's addictive. It's addictive, right because
that idea of winning, winning actually lights up the dopamine
in our brain. Like because it is, it often does

(44:33):
become a cycle of they win you over and it's
really fun and you're having a great time, and then
they pull away a little bit, like I got to
win them back over. Again, hustle, hustle, hustle, You get
their attention, exciting dopamine, and you keep doing it over
and over again. So it's an old cycon. So people
who are actually have at all an addictive style to
their personality. They're often drawn to narcissists, to people who

(44:55):
don't mind roller coasters, and people who are sort of
slow and steady. They'll walk away. But it is Listen,
we're all going to make the mistake. How many people
are gonna say, well, really attractive guy just gave me
his number, I'm going to crumple it up and throw
it in the trash. Actually, by the time I'm done
with people, they do, I mean because they're so scared
after they talk to me, because I trained them so well,
Like God, these are the things to look for. But

(45:16):
someone smooth and slick and swave and charismatic, I really
love to get to know you. You're the most interesting
person in the room. Most people say, wow, this is
really great. I want to meet this person. So the
trick is a lot of people need to learn better
gatekeeping and the first time, the first time anyone fools
with your reality, you need to get out and that
and really to lay that down because and then what
will happen is the narcissists will try to suck you

(45:38):
back in. It's actually something called hoovering. They will give
you the full court press to get you back in.
And you have to have absolute nerves of steel to
say absolutely not, because the one thing, the one thing
you've got to remember about narcissists is that they don't change.
They are one trick ponies. They only know one song
and they will not change. Interesting. This is definitely gonna
be a trending topic as years go on in this society,

(46:01):
I mean, the way things are going. Dr Romany, thank
you so much for your time. Whe whek and our
listeners find you to learn more about you know, your
outlook on all of this. Yeah, you can find me
on Instagram at dr Romney which is d O c
t O r r a m a n I. You
can find my website at dr Romney which is d
O C t O R dash r A m a

(46:24):
n i dot com. If you go to either those
places will link you to my YouTube channel on my Instagram,
Twitter all the rest of it too, and new book
coming out so you can order it. It's just about
to hit the stores. It's called Don't you Know Who
I Am? How to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement,
and instability. So it's a survival guy for the next century.
And that's an October one correct now, thank you, thank you,

(46:49):
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first month free. That's kiwiko dot com slash Jana. Hey guys, Um,
so I've been texting with Lauren because her Yeah, Lauren

(48:15):
a Lena, so he thinks in her first UM episode,
her first dance just came out on Dancing with Stars.
So um, she said she can call in Eastern? Is
that going to be cool? Can she can she call in? Yeah? Yeah,
let's get on the phone all right, Lauren? Oh my god, girl,

(48:35):
you killed it? Thank you. I just watched it again
and I was like, is that Nate? Like even know
that person? I'm not gonna new firston, like and I
feel like you can't because you came over and you're like,
I can't dance at all. And then you came out
there and like Michael's like, hey, so how did Lauren do?

(48:56):
Because he was I think he was watching football and
I said, she ricking killed it? Like you did not
miss like a step. Well you don't know. Here's the
thing though, you like, even though even if you did,
like we never know, and that's something too, Like I
remember I've been like, oh my god, but I missed
that in this and it's like, but we don't know,
you know, Like watching I was so proud. I thought

(49:20):
I was going to pass out. I was so excited.
That's gonna be like the best feeling, like knowing that,
like you know, it's just like that you're like proud
of yourself. I am so proud. Oh my goodness, I'm
so glad that it went well and we go to
seven and that is that's incredible, like literally incredible, funny

(49:40):
glib because everyone was like, yeah, the judges are gonna
be harder this year, and they were pretty strict. I
was like, crap, but um it glib Like to me,
he said, don't even pay attention to the score, like
it's no matter what our score is, it doesn't matter.
It's they're gonna be so much more strict this year

(50:04):
and it's gonna be okay. Just don't let it get
you down if we don't get a good score. And
I was like, is he giving me a pet talk.
Is he telling me that we're gonna get a bad
school person? When they were like when they said all right,
let's get your scores, I was like, I'm gonna I'm
gonna pass out right now. I didn't even I was like,
I blacked out. I don't even tell if. I was

(50:24):
so nervous. And then we got great scores and I
was like I wanted to look at Gleb and be like, uh, huh,
how are you preparing for next week? So we have
today off? They like made everyone take today off. I
think that different. Usually I think did you learn your

(50:44):
new dance on Tuesdays? Yeah? There was there was no
days off. Yeah, so they're they like made everyone take
today off. It's like a new rule, I guess. Um.
So him just laying around praying about it. Um, well,
I'm in l A, so let's get together. You are huh,

(51:05):
we have to. I would love that. Um. Hey, girl,
I just gotta ask because it's out there. How's your heart?
My heart is good. Um, It's it's kind of like
weird climbing obviously, to go through a break right before
you go on TV. But it's been a good distraction
and John that friends. I mean, I love John. We

(51:27):
were best friends before we die. It's just like didn't
work out, you know, but we're still friends. I've I've
just talked to him, um and he says, you know,
he's really proud of me. And it sucks. I mean
it's sad, but like now is the times the just
like have so much freaking fun on Dancing with the
Stars and I want everyone to vote for Lauren Elena

(51:48):
because she's incredible person and she's killing the like like
that was insane. I'm so excited to watch every week
now because um, I think I think the mirror Ball
is going to stay in the Country family because that
was that was so good, like to be so happy
when we get it. But yeah, I want to win
so bad. After doing that day that was, I wasn't

(52:12):
sure that I was gonna be able to do. Like
I didn't know how I would do. In the moment,
you know, I was like, please don't get out there
and forget it. I just kept praying, just remember the
steps from the steps because it's so different than anything
I've ever done. And I was like, what if I'm
nervous and forget the whole thing? That was like, my So,
now that I got that one out of the way,

(52:32):
I think I can do it. I think I could
do this. Well, just know that Glad. You know, Glad
totally gets that because I remember the first dance, like
right before the beat beat beat. I was like, Glad,
I forgot the entire thing. I forgot the entire thing.
He's like, no, you didn't, just Dan. It was like
end your live And I'm like, so it's that click track.
It's terrible here on the show. I mean it, it

(52:53):
scared you. It's like it's like your heart beat like
coming out of your chest. But right, well, I love you.
You looked beautiful. I'm so proud of you. And I
think the biggest takeaway this is that you're proud of
yourself too, which I think is huge. So I'm alright, well,

(53:16):
I love you. I'll text you later by okay, okay, okay.
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(54:46):
and use the promo code wind down. That's one dash
peloton dot com. Okay, I have to pee, like really
bout Actually you actually have to pee? So did Tory
the here? Right here? What did she get? Let's see?
But I feel like Tory needs to come in here.

(55:06):
I told her not to get that kind she struggling
with so good. Yeah, it's some peanut butter cups. How
you candy? Big? Thank you? Go ahead? Tory? Would you
have to ask again? I had to ask again? Um?

(55:28):
She recommended these two? And I lost you guys on
the line, so I didn't hear what you said for
not getting and I try to ask what brand? And
then you guys were disconnected. Well, I guess I really
have to go. You guys keeping thank you for your service.
We'll go live here on this. We're going. Can you
take a phone with you to the bathroom? Bring it
in here? Can you resist looking at it until you

(55:51):
get in here? Can you wrap it in a paper
towel she's got and then bring it in? Is Michael
allowed to tell us? What was Janna trying to express
to you last night that you couldn't understand because I
want to see if I understand it as a woman.
She was, don't worry, I got your back. Oh, we'll
talk babies. Yeah, we'll talk about Pilgrim, me about how

(56:12):
I feel about this third baby, and we'll talk about
the other stuff when you get back. I think it's
great with her, but I don't feel like, how do
you feel I'd rather not. I mean, yes, it would
be amazing. And I was genuine when I told Jane.

(56:34):
I was like, if we have one, great. If we don't,
I believe you truly. But right now with this up
in the air, now the things that the ideas of
starting all over again, and you know, that delays other
plans that we wanted to do in a few years,
and it just it changes the landscape of the next

(56:56):
few years of life, of life, yeah, and even next
few years of life. So it just it changes things. Well,
your house is big enough, That's what I was gonna say.
But how are you just trusting the universe? Like if
it is great? And and that's that's why I'm this way,
That's why I'm like, even though we got if it's
sector me for a reason, I'm still just like, but
is a part of you, like because you know her
and you know if it comes back and it says no,
She's going to kind of be like, I kind of

(57:17):
want another no because my I mean, I'm I also
think it's a no. I don't think she is, but yes,
if the universe clearly wants you to have this, which
is really fine because I love our kids more than anything,
and like this whole last weekend is hot as hell
in Nashville, and we're in the pool all day every
day with kids, and it was just like, this is
the happiest thing in the world. And it's like the

(57:39):
other night, Jolie woke up like four in the morning
for some reason, came into bed. I'm on, I'm near
the doorside. She came in, laid in my arms for
like twenty minutes. I took her upstairs to her room.
She wanted me to lay with her, and readers Stroy
we fell asleep together in her bed. I'm like this
right here. I was like, nothing in the world beats this.
I was like, so, if I have a third kid
to do that again with, I was like, I wouldn't
regret that. What's so boy or girl, it wouldn't matter

(58:01):
Janna would want a boy, like she's like, I want
five boys. Wow. I just feel like a part of
her is gonna be a little sad if she comes
in and it's a no, like I know she's that
I honestly have no empathy for because I'm like, this
would just be a bonus, like on like, it could

(58:23):
be amazing because you were you guys did decide as
as a unit that you were done, and you went
and did your things. Even though the next day she's like,
actually I don't know, dude. We were sitting here in
the podcast and she was like, actually, I don't know.
I know. That was very fascinating. Wow. I mean, she's
not pregnant. I would be willing to be, but like

(58:43):
Sarah saying, she's definitely gonna probably be a little upset
she's not. But okay, Sarah, what's your gut hiding me? Early?
I mean the sect me is a pretty good. Oh god,
she's bad. Did you do you ever favorite towel? It
has a cap. I don't know these things. He is clean?

(59:06):
Cover it up? What don't you cover it up? I
don't know. So it's like we all unveil it together,
so we gradually get it. No spoilers, What do you
mean spoilers? Yeah, there you go, say it takes now
now you've been gone for two Yeah, it'll show up
now because it usually shows up with in like like
the real Yeah, just give it a minute. Well, let's

(59:28):
talk about the other stuff and then we'll come back.
You're really going to make us a that's so rude
because what if it says not and then in another
minute it says yes. I don't think they can change
their minds. That's almost worse than what Tori said, did
you take Did you take one? Or two? I just

(59:49):
said one? Before you look? How are you feeling? Actually,
as I was doing it, I was like, oh, I'm
kind of like, I'm kind of nervous right now. Yeah,
you're taking a pregnancy test. I would be nervous. So
do you have a feel how you'll feel if it's
a yes or a no? Like as excited as I
would be, I'm like, I'm i'm good too. Where we're at, Okay,
we're good. I think I feel that well. I think

(01:00:12):
that you'll there will be tears if it's a no.
Oh no, it's a little misty, a little bit of
a little bit I think i'd be okay, I do too,
think about drunk. You're going to get right now, then
later today, tonight, you're going to get. I was really excited.
I feel like we can look, can we look? I

(01:00:32):
got them? I'm actually freaking okay right now? Not somehow ready?
What do you do? Oh my god? If it's two lines,
were pregnant. If it's one line, we're not wait, how

(01:00:54):
many lines? Jesus? Oh god, to okay, what is more?
One more time? Oh? You're lying. He's like double checking.

(01:01:15):
Are you looking at the lines? I'm not pregnant? Well?
How accurate are those things though? I mean they're pretty
accurate of him having a vasectomy, and it's saying no,
I'm going pretty solid. No, I'm looking for the second line.
Oh god, because sometimes she's like there, the line is

(01:01:37):
there and just show up. Though. Now it's like, now,
what what did I tell you? She'll be happy? She won't.
I'm like, I really think she's gonna be like, let's
just try. I kind of do babe. Oh you know,
like what a bummer? No, who knows? Maybe need some candy. Yeah,

(01:02:01):
I started eating chips. I just literally packed up in chips.
I'm like, I can't with this. I Am like, she's like,
someone take a test someone. My mom went through menopause
at thirty three because she thought she was. She took
me to the doctors with her and thought that she
was I'm gonna look at that later. By the way,
she thought that she was pregnant and she went through

(01:02:21):
early menopause. That's why I've always a little out of
whack at your age. But will you tell us what
happened last night? Because I'm really curious whose side them on.
I'm sorry to say that, but I really I'm most
likely did you already tell your part? I most likely,
but you wanted to because well, he seemed a little
frustrated because sometimes like nighttime routine can be a little

(01:02:45):
a lot. So he seemed just a little more on
edge and frustrated. Um. And so when we put the
kids down, I was coming down the stairs and this
is the second time he's made a comment about the gate. Um,
the baby gates not closing. W was the other time? Um,
I was saying. I was like, oh, He's like, did

(01:03:05):
you close the gate when we went up to take
Jay's to the bath and you just close the gate?
I was like, oh, no, it doesn't close very well.
And all I asked was did you close the gate?
I know, but and I said no, So then that
was then. The second time was then when I came
down the steps, and so he was just kind of
like in a little weird of a mood. And then
he said it sounds like so juvenile now, but we're

(01:03:27):
walking down the I'm walking down the steps and he goes,
is it so hard for you to not shut the gate? No?
I didn't say. I like, that's not at all how
I said it, or what I say, very like deady.
I said, did you what did I say? I said,
did you need did you have a hard time shot
in the gate? Because you had said it's hard to
shut but you know, we got it fixed. But because

(01:03:48):
the last isn't completely on it, but it's against context,
that's that's important. But you said do you have a
hard time shot in the gate? And I'm like, oh,
it just it was like very deadpand and he was
just and I is like, okay, like sorry and to
kind of ran the steps, you know, to close up properly. Um,
And then I just again because to me, that was

(01:04:09):
not like later on he said that was a joke,
But I'm like, but you seem frustrated early on, so
I didn't really take it as a joke because it
seemed kind of passive. So when we were in the
laund room and I was just like, hey, I don't
know what's going on, but if there's something bothering you,
you just please let me know, like invitation basically to
come talk to me, He's like, nothing's wrong, and I'm
just like, I love how the infliction of her voice

(01:04:29):
to act to perspective, but like, yeah, I mean you
still were like nothing like you wasn't like, oh no, babe,
I'm totally fine. I'm sorry that you think something's wrong
like it was, Well, you don't okay, you don't say
you're sorry, but you can you know, you could have
been like, oh no, bab, nothing's wrong at all. And
so it's a different like sometimes like your tone is
can be taken a little harsher. Do you guys watch

(01:04:52):
the show The Affair? So here's what's super fascinating and
why I think you guys should watch it the way
they do. Well, it is about an affair, but you'd
be to handle that the clearly they shoot the same scene.
Oh love that from the woman's perspective and then the
man's love it's the same sort of scenario, and the

(01:05:15):
differences are amazing, Like it's incredibly because the way it
lands on one character when you're seeing it from the
male perspective and then the the opposite, and as the viewer,
you're really like, well, wow, I don't know what happened
now because I'm seen, Yeah, it's super fascinating, and that's

(01:05:36):
what I Yeah, no, for sure, And I can get like,
you know, there's times when you know, he's a little
bit more quieter than the other times, but you know,
lately he has been a little bit more just smoothie,
I guess, and so it's just been kind of hard
to decipher that and it just, you know, I just
think his tone sometimes it's very hard to take because

(01:05:57):
it's it's it's not cheer. It doesn't have to be.
You don't always be cheery, but you can tell when
someone's tone is a little off. And so then I
came then into the living room and I was like, hey,
can you just understand or try to understand, like why
I thought that that wasn't a joke about and how
like it seemed passive to me and how I still
feel like there's something wrong with you and I'm sorry

(01:06:19):
that if there isn't, like that is totally annoying and
I get that too, Like that sucks because like you
asked me that sometimes too, and it's not. But I'm
just I just want you to understand why I didn't
take that as a Hey, that landed on me weird.
Do you mind explaining it? Yeah? I guess. Sometimes remember
that one time there was a doctor here, I don't
remember her name, and she said something like if you

(01:06:41):
had more like oh god, it was like something like emotional,
if you had more in the bank or something more like.
I feel like that's how it is sometimes like he
was probably joking, but because the tone is not, you're
more hyper sensitive to it. So like because like I'm
the same, Like sometimes I'll just like say like, you know,

(01:07:02):
dumb whatever to Tie or he'll say it to me
and it kind of just like bounces. But I feel like,
because you're because of what you guys have been through,
you're just more hyper sensitive to what he says. And
then when you say it is something wrong, maybe he's
more hypersensitive to you being like, why is something you
know what I'm saying, Like I feel like, sure, that's
what I feel like I'm kind of hearing because I

(01:07:24):
feel like you both are probably like, yeah, it was nothing,
but it was something like he doesn't like when you
say you know what's wrong or something from sure, but
then you don't like when he snaps or whatever it is,
even if it was a joke, you didn't think it
was a joke because you're just more You're not you're
not sensitive, but you're more hypersensitive to things he and
now we're making him no, not right, just like his

(01:07:44):
resting though, is like because he thinks that's like an
argument a while backwards, like yeah, basically I don't remember
how you're like yeah, and all my friends think you're grumpy?
What no, because you're you're more like you're just like
thinking about it, but to you, you're more you know
what I mean, So you I could see how you'd

(01:08:04):
be like are you mad? But really he's like, no,
I'm not mad, but stop asking, you know. Yeah, and
I do get it, but again it was the tone
in which, like I don't think he realizes is your
tone sometime with when you speak, I'm guilty of doing
the you should have done this, and men do not
enjoy that. So I really learned because then it's like,

(01:08:26):
what are you My mom is like, best not do that. Yeah,
So I really am working on that because I get it.
And they don't like to be told what to do.
So even if you're like, hey, you should have said
this or you should feel this, it's essentially telling them
what to do and they don't care for that. I
just don't know why it's so hard to like, I mean,
I was literally talking like a therapist, Michael. All I'm
asking you to do in this moment is just to

(01:08:46):
please try to understand where I'm coming from and then
you can say your feelings after that. And he's just
like he could not do it, and I was just like,
I can't