May 25, 2026 • 59 mins
Brandon Kyle Goodman is a writer, producer, and host of his own podcast "Tell Me Something Messy." and today we're talking all about SEX, who's having it and how can we be having it better? We talk all about that and more in this messy episode!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and as always, I'm so
happy everyone's here. I'm happy that I get to have
this time to connect with everyone. I hope everyone out
there is doing really well. I'm really excited to share
I am finally going on a vacation, a much needed
(00:24):
reset and pause. I don't usually give myself the space
to rest because I feel like I'm missing out on something,
I'm not doing enough, and there's just a lot of
like shame that comes with resting when you're a perfectionist.
So I'm heading off to Greece for a week to
(00:46):
unwind and disconnect. And Sophia likes to pack a lot.
We don't pack suitcases, we pack trunks. So that is
my queen and that's the way she loves to show up.
So I think this conversation you all are gonna love
so much today because we really talk about that and
(01:08):
the performative piece and giving yourself space and boundary and
healing and being able to admit you don't have it
all figured out. I want to continue being able to
learn to fill my cup up so I can be
the best version of myself for my family and my
kids and my friends, and I'm excited to do absolute
(01:32):
fucking nothing to be honest, and I'm more excited for
you to hear this episode. Brandon Kyle Goodman is a writer, actor, advocate,
and host of Tell Me Something Messy, a show that
dives headfirst into the chaos, contradictions, vulnerability, and beauty of
just being human. This conversation is about identity, intimacy, mental health, sexuality, performance, healing,
(01:59):
and the exact exhausting pressure to constantly explain yourself to
the world. But it's also funny, messy, honest, and freeing
because sometimes becoming yourself isn't graceful. Sometimes it's awkward, sometimes
it's loud. Sometimes it falls apart before it even comes together.
(02:19):
And honestly, that's where the good stuff lives. Without keeping
you all too long, let's get into it. This is
Wide Open, and here is Brandon Kyle Goodman. Welcome back,
(02:41):
everybody to another episode of Wide Open. I'm your host
Ashlyn Harris, and today we have Brandon Kyle Goodman. Welcome
to the show. Honey, how are you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I'm so good. I'm happy to be here. Although your
camera looks way better than mine. Really, I got a
new camera and it's like not as HD cute as
yours is, but that's all right, whatever, we'll figure it out.
You look stunning. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, honestly, I'm like I went to Sephora and I
shouldn't even say that they're not a sponsor, but I
went to ah someplace and I was like, I want
new makeup, just to play like love. Girls just want
to have fun even if you're you know, pretty mask
So here we are so h I really did? I
(03:25):
mean I walk out of these places and I'm like,
why is everything so expensive? Like I'm out here just
trying to look cute, and you guys are draining my
bank account.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
They really trying to get us down, and I don't
know what it is they're trying to keep us down.
It's like, please make this cheaper. Like when we were younger,
I feel like everything was it was affordable because we
were kids, and we want to pay for it exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I want to get back on that.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I want to get back on that. It was great. Also,
it was.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Like, oh, I can't wait to go to CBS to
get my makeup. My cover girl. I had a line
that was like.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Oh yes, the mask, the mask, I know all about that.
Absolutely little cvs, a little wallgreen. Oh days, you could
spend all day in front of those aisles.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Literally, you know, I just remember how much it would
just rub off on everything.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And just like your pillow is just a different shade.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I'm like, don't get too close with that hug.
I might wipe my finger off.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I know, because my I have like the because I
have the darker shade. Sometimes I'm so afraid to hug
people because I'm like, if it's not set, your nice
white shirt is gonna have a very clear, uh black
mark on it.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Love, I hear you. There's I really do have two
pet peeves. Really Okay, So we're just gonna really dive
into this this one. We're just warming up, honey, we're
warming up. Yeah, two pet peeds. Uh. And it mostly
stems This one mostly stems from women when I'm at
events and I have a really nice suit on and
I go to say hello to someone or like a
(04:55):
fan wants to take a picture and they put their
arm around me. Yeah, and then I'm like, I know
I don't smell like that. I know.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You said that, can't be me. That can't be me
at all, and I got yeah, yeah, you know what
that does it to me. It's like an uber or
a lyft when you get in and it smells terrible
and you're like, but I just spent so much time
trying to smell good, and now I'm going to smell
like whatever is going on in this car that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Or it smells like potpourri that I like, I want
to be a dog, putting my head outside the window, being.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Like, yes, yes, I immediately have to hit that that
automatic roll the window down. Love, I don't care if
it's wintertime.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Oh, I'm like an uber axe kind of gall. I'm
like drinking it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yes, please? What's the second pet peeve?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Second pet peeve is exactly what you're talking about when
someone hugs me and I am in a white because like,
I'm an old school kind of gal, Like I like
to iron my clothes. It's chriss so vintage. Oh my god,
she really is, she really is.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
She was like you at the board and everything.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Oh, I need the crease. I need it. I tish
my fucking jeans.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh wow, you crease? Do you crease them in the middle?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
In the middle? Oh, she came to party and she
was like, oh, I'm gonna pay twenty dollars at this thrift,
but I'm gonna make it look five hundred absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Okay, Okay, so you got the crisp. But then when
people get there different.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Like when they like, yeah, when they get there, and
then all night I gotta walk around like you.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Gotta get that tied. That's tied to go, so you
could just bye.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's my two pet pets, I really Or like when
someone comes in and I have full glam, full hair
and makeup and they like, kiss my cheek, but I'm like,
I just need air kisses hunting. Just give me air.
Do not be put in your makeup and your your gloss,
not setting makeup online. I don't know it's an air
(07:06):
kiss or nothing at all exactly. That's like the one
good thing about COVID. And trust me, I am so
affectionate and so handsy with everyone, like my best friends,
probably people I don't even know. I just am a lover.
I love people. But like COVID was nice. It was like,
give me some of that, like.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
See you later, give me some space love. Yeah, yeah
at the shoulder, agreed, agreed, Because sometimes you're like, I
don't want to be affectioned with everybody, and so I
get that.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I love it. I love it. So speaking of times
of wild like shutdowns and everything, when you started messy Monday,
was that during COVID?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I was during the pandemic? Yeah, yeah, that was the summer,
the summer of twenty twenty maybe, like god, yeah, August
or September.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And that's like where all of this stemmed from.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That's where everything stemmed from. Yeah, Like my whole little
ecosystem came from like one little story, which was like,
tell me something good or messy. And you know, thankfully
for me, everyone was home and they were horny and
had nothing to do, so they wanted to talk and
I was like, great, tell me everything, tell me something messy.
(08:19):
So that's where everything kind of stemmed from.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Well, what was it like for you? I'm curious because
I want to start from a more interesting because I
do think the most interesting part of people's stories as
like who they were before the world actually told them
who they were supposed to be. Yeah, tell me about
you growing up and what it was like as like
(08:45):
a young kid, and like, I just want a little
bit of a context to understand where we are today.
As someone I love to absorb your content. I'm just like, Okay,
where did all this come from? And I imagine there's
such a beautiful journey to you becoming you know who
you are today. So tell me a little bit about
(09:05):
your childhood.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, you know, it's one of my favorite questions is
who would I be of society never got its hands
on me. That's my favorite question to ask. And you know,
it's a hodgepodge of I think good things, painful things,
sweet things, awkward things that kind of make up all
of us. But my childhood was I grew up in Queens,
New York, and I was raised by my grandmother, my mother,
(09:28):
and my godmother basically lived in the house with the
three of them, and then my godfather lived down the block,
and I had another godmother that lived across the street.
So I was really raised by this like tribe of
incredible parental figures. My grandmother was from Trinida. My grandmother
and mother were born in Trinidad, so I'm first generation American,
and the godmother that lived with us was Jamaican, So
(09:48):
there was a lot of Caribbean roots inside of the
household and a lot of Caribbean. I think politics in
that way, where you know, how you dressed was really
important and how you looked, how you spoke. When I
would growing up, I'd be like, you know, are we
going into Manhattan? And I'd be like, uh uh Manhattan
ten Like oh sure, so sure. Yeah. So there was
(10:09):
a lot and my grandmother's also a minister, so I
grew up a PK, a pastor's kid, So I went
to church with my grandmother every Sunday. My mom, interestingly enough,
she of course grew up the first PK of the household,
but then when I was born, she I think kind
of used it as an out. She was like, Okay,
well you're going to be the PK and I'm going
(10:29):
to go try other things. And so she was definitely
trying other religions, other spiritualities, Buddhism. There was a little
bit of a hotep moment, there was metaphysical like she
was just always on this exploration. And when I was
around a teenager, I think that she really recognized that,
like my grandmother's church was draining me and in uh,
(10:52):
I don't think that want a technology. There was a
queerness yet, but she could tell that there was something
that was maybe familiar in her experience, was that I
was shrinking a bit, and so she took me out
of that church and just let me follow her around.
And so my teenage years, my middle school teenage yeers
were really spent just bouncing around different spiritualities and different religions,
and they kind of informed that. Plus going to school
(11:15):
at the United Nations International School just like open me
up to, oh, there are more ways to live and
there are more cultures and more experiences than just my own,
and how does that feed into who I want to become? Yeah?
That was I think that's like the the foundation is
(11:35):
like this curiosity was always there, especially around religion and spirituality.
I was always fascinated by it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. Mm hmmm. So it's
so interesting. You have such a beautiful like background, which
totally made sense in your openness like now of who
(12:04):
you are and your ability to have such hold such
beautiful conversations with intention, And I think it's like not
as easy as people make it out to be, just
not It's hard to create that safe space or someone's
just ready to like open up, get messy.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah yeah, and I only talk about the things that
are unprocessed and talk about the things that are a
little bit taboo. Which is the point of everything I
do is that I think, well, eventually my mother became
a born again Christian, So for we don't know is
that we haven't been in relationship for about the last
fifteen years, almost sixteen because she became born again after
(12:48):
my grandmother passed away, and I am a flaming home
I say actual will and I love to suck things,
So there was there was a lot of tension around that,
and eventually I made the decision this like really strong
boundary to go what we now call no contact. But
I originally it was like just kind of estrangement, but
(13:12):
it forced me to become my own parent. And in fact,
I had a mentor that said when this was beginning,
she was like, if you were your own parent, what
advice would you give yourself? And that's how I kind
of started to make these decisions. But it kind of
also opened up the reality that as adults, depending on
where our lineage is, what our parents were, we don't
(13:34):
necessarily have someone showing us how to get through things
because no one wants to talk about it. We go
from children, and I'm sure you know this as a mother, right,
Kids are so curious they want to know everything, and
then around teenage years it becomes uncool to not know
and everything has to be like a yes or no,
black or white, and we carry that into our adulthood
(13:55):
and we just stop questioning things. And so instead of going, oh,
I actually don't know how I feel about that, or
maybe I do like to wear pink, or maybe I
want my hair like that, or maybe I want to
live over here, and so instead of asking those questions,
we attach ourselves to having an authoritative opinion and it
cuts us off. And so I really want to create
a space. It's like it's okay to not know. In fact,
(14:17):
saying I don't know is the most liberating thing you
could ever say, because it means that anything is possible.
That part is that you can still be curious, and
you can still evolve, and you can still like this
is our first time here. And so I want to
create spaces where we can get it wrong as opposed
to the Internet. As you well know, it's like if
you say the wrong thing, everybody's upsets like I'm an
(14:37):
evolving human. That opinion that I had might be completely
wrong and in two years I get to say I
was wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But yeah, we don't give people space to do that,
to grow that sense of becoming and to evolve, as
life is moving fucking fast fast, righting.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Ever, with this social media internet of it all, it's
so fast.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It's okay to change your mind, it's okay to get
it wrong. I think that's what I love and what
like is brewing in my mind right now and I
kind of want to tap into it. It is this
we have become so performative. Oh yeah, honey, it's like
and as someone who is an actor, a writer, a
(15:20):
public voice, I think a lot of people are performing
constantly now, even outside of their job, even outside of
the entertainment space, Like it is a survival mode to
fall in line because we have this toxic cancel culture.
Everyone is just like so every nerve ending is raw
(15:42):
and I feel it. I feel like I'm chewing on
barbed wire every day. So I'm like, it's like such
a jump scare thing that I don't want to upset anyone.
I don't want to like, oh if I do this,
like well, I lose brand endorsements, like is this going
to affect my bottom line? And it's this constant fucking
hamster wheel I'm spinning on, and I'm like, but what
(16:05):
about me? I'm like, I'm a deeply flawed human who
is living life in the fucking public eye. Yeah, and
it's hard and I get it wrong, and I'm just curious, like,
do you feel like most people are performing versions of
themselves right now? Constantly?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I think that ninety nine percent of people are performing
a version because we haven't been taught to ask any
questions about who we actually are. So there's no way
for us to show up, you know, authentic with such
a big word in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, there's
no actual way for us to show up authentically if
we're not first asking questions, right, And it's scary to
(16:46):
ask questions because we're told, and you know we can.
Let we can take this, you can take it into
microcosm and blow it up. But let's just use queerness
for a second. Right, boys are wear blue, girls wear pink. Right,
So if you're if you never question that, you just
follow this blueprint that isn't even yours to follow. You
might be a boy and you might like lavender, you know,
(17:08):
but you've never been given the opportunity to want something
apart from blue or apart from pink. And so how
are you not performing?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Ye? I think it's kids. I mean, this is why
kids are so special, and children are so special is
because before they're told, they are just existing, just being,
and then we kind of train these things out of them,
We train their es. Big Mouth was one of the
greatest gifts for my life because as an animated series,
(17:38):
it required me to tap into my imagination and I
didn't realize how much I had cut that off before
I got there, because as an adult, right like, cartoons
are childish or your imagination is silly, like we got
to deal with logic and facts, whereas your dreams and
your the ability to build the life that you want
for yourself and to be the person that you want
(17:59):
to be lives in your imagination. And if you don't
have access to that, then you're just playing a role.
You're just a carbon copy. You're just looking at people
and going, oh, I should be that. And I think
our social media exacerbates that, where now everyone is a brand,
everyone is also and this is no shade. But it's
like we're making content that is like literally the same
(18:19):
that somebody else made. It's like, yeah, this is the
trending audio. This is a trending dance. Correct, So we're
all copying the same thing as opposed to what is
your dance? What is your audio? And that's just trick
into our lives.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
You know, it's so true because like I also think
it's so different. I know, you know you have you know,
part of your life has been You've been raised in
this industry of entertainment and acting, and you know, being
with Sophia, like she watches her every move every time
(18:55):
I am, like I was raised in a locker room.
We like pee and shit with the door open. We
don't close, Like I don't. I'm fucking walking around naked.
I don't give a shit. Literally, I just don't care.
And it's so funny because I you know, she'll be
sleeping and I'm like making coffee naked. All the windows
(19:17):
are open. I'm walking and I'm flinging the dream open
and I'm like, good morning, beautiful, Like I want to
have fun. And I remember when we were first together,
like dating, she was like probably this bitch is absolutely bonkers.
But now I'm seeing her like be a little cracked,
(19:38):
wide open, and now like even today we're dancing, we
wake up, no one's no one's even watching. It's just
the freedom to be exactly who we want to be
in moments without someone questioning it, giving their you know, judgment,
which Jesus Chris all the fucking time. But it's just
(19:58):
so true, like it so much of this industry really
takes from you and hardens you in a way where
you feel like you have to be perfect and you
have to fall in line. But do you think society
actually gives people enough room to kind of do both
and both? You know, you talk about masculinity, both soft
(20:19):
and strong, Like I have a three year old currently
identifies as a boy, a son who loves his nails done,
who loves to wear a dress and a tutu, like
just loves to twirl, loves to like be in the
mirror and like boom hip hop, and like I love
(20:40):
that about him, Like I love that he gets to
express himself however the fuck he wants. Like he loves
pink because his older sister loves pink, so it's like
he loves a TU two because his sister loves A
too too, And now we are in full blown dresses
and it's just like it is like I am reclaiming
(21:04):
my joy by seeing the world through his lens because
he hasn't been jaded or tainted yet by society's expectations
of why you're wearing that? Boys don't wear that? Right,
He's so free and so fully him fucking sulf Like
I'm envious of my three year old. Yeah, that he
(21:26):
is just purely showing up and I am so grateful
as his parent and his mom to give him the
space to explore it allugh, Like I didn't have that
oh at all at all.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And when you said that, I'm like,
I'm also thinking about it's not just about the pink,
but it's also about like the connection the love he
has for his sister and his way of expressing that
love by like trying to mimic her, And how sad
it would be to try and take that from him,
you know, try and take that action, that expression where
(22:01):
it's like you you should like you should learn that
how you want to express yourself is correct, Like there's
nothing wrong with that that for whatever reason. Other people
I was. I interviewed Liz Plank and we were talking
about how everything just like boils down to like five
straight white men just want to control everything. And it's like,
(22:23):
for what reason. It's like, you want to wear a dress,
wear you want, you don't, don't like, Just be just
be aheend and it'll evolve and it'll change and you
get to play. Lauren Hill says, anything that's not growing
is dead, and it's like, yes, just continue to evolve
and change. And this year you might like pink. Next
year you might like blue, next year you might like lavin,
like whatever it is. Just give yourself the permission to
(22:44):
do that. And you're you're giving him such a gift
by allowing that, you know, by like giving him a
space to know, Oh, this is what it feels like
to take space and to express.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I love that. What do you think happens like emotionally
when we stop seeking that approval?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know, I think we not to be dramatic, but
I think we die inside. We definitely harden inside, and
we have less access to ourselves. You know. One of
the things I always ask for as a as a performer,
and why my acting career is like intentionally I've taken
a step back from it. Is because the characters tend
to be very one note and I always say I
want to be able to play with all the crayons
(23:24):
in the color box of humanity, and they don't often
let you know, a black, dark skin queer fem character
do that. But that's also what I want in life,
is for us to have access to all the colors
in the crayton box of our humanity. And many of
us have like two colors, you know, and we vacillate
between the two. Some of us have one and that's it,
and it's and that's not living. That's not to me,
(23:47):
that's not a full life. It's understandable though, because I
also want to acknowledge that life is hard and there
are reasons that we have these walls and these armors up.
But I think it's like, can you, by brick by brick,
start to dismantle the armor, And not that you don't
need safety from certain things and people, but there are ways,
(24:10):
I think, to erect boundaries that still allow you to
have access to yourself. In fact, that is the purpose
of boundaries. Like boundaries to me, is not about keeping
things out. It's actually about allowing you to be more
open because you know where you'll go and where you won't.
You know where it is okay for you to be
your full self, and you won't put yourself in situations
(24:34):
where it's not okay. That, to me is what boundaries
is. Is about allowing you to live a fuller, more realized,
open life as opposed to, you know, having to go
back to those one or two colors.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, exactly, just doing the same thing. And I really
think that, you know, as also a very very queer woman,
I do think and I move differently in the world,
and I find that people are really envious of that.
Those on the other side who are so quick to
(25:08):
judge or take away basic rights for all of us.
You're talking about all the colors and crowns in a box.
It's like they have been so deeply curated to become
a person of order, to fall in line, and they
(25:29):
see people like us who live this beautiful, colorful life,
and I feel that they're envious. I think people are
waking up and realizing they've spent years disconnected from themselves emotionally, physically, spiritually,
but because they're trying to do what society has branded
them to do for decades, and then they get to
(25:52):
the other side and they're like, have I lived a
full fucking life? Is this? It?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
No? And I think that is the liberation. That is
the freedom of which us on the queer side get
to show what is possible by living colorful lives, by
living openly and freely and not feeling like, oh, we're
told to do this, so we've got to do it.
It's like, no, fuck that we're doing exact. All of
(26:22):
us are so different. We show up so differently and
like we're so accepting and so loving because we know
how beautiful that makes our community, Like I am obsessed
with it, like I am. And we are open about
our sexuality, we're open about mental health. Like this is
(26:43):
all the things that you bring to people, especially through
you know, the Messy Mondays and your podcast, Like I
love how you are talking about topics other people aren't
willing to dive into. And I don't know if that's shame.
I don't know if that's a performative piece yeah, or
if it's uncomfortable. I find that like a lot of
(27:07):
straight since people are really uncomfortable talking about talking about intimacy,
and I'm like, I had that issue and I felt
a lot of shame around it because I felt the
projection of well, sex is and everything, and intimacy is
and everything. And now I'm on the other side of
(27:28):
this new learning and humanizing and shedding of skin. I'm like, oh, no,
fuck that. It's like that is a non negotiable for me.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, it's a couple of things. I want to say.
People are deeply uncomfortable, and I think straight people are
deeply uncomfortable. It's also interesting to run into queer people,
it makes sense, who are also deeply uncomfortable and sometimes
even more uncomfortable around especially talking about queer sex. You'll
find that queer people tend to be even more uncomfortable,
which is in its own way of performance, because it's
(27:57):
something that's been learned and you see it through like
a lot of us who might be in the sex
space or sex education, even like brands won't touch it
because it's so uncomfortable. And yet sex is everywhere, you know,
like there are there are all our shows. You can't
make a show without somebody.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
We're all doing it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
We're all we're all doing We're all here because of
some version of it. And I thought that sex was
this salacious thing as well, but really it's a it's
a way to tap into your body, even if you're asexual, right,
Like the ability to understand what you like in the
bedroom or what you like with your body gives you
a different power because this is the vessel you're with
(28:35):
twenty four to seven. So imagine you're with this vessel
twenty four seven and you don't even know what touching
your nipples does to it, or like what grazing your
your beard or your hair or you know, your the
inside of your arm like turns you on or turns
you off. It's like, this is this is yours. It
doesn't want to anybody else. You should know every button
(28:56):
on this thing and how it works and when it
feels good and when it does doesn't feel good, and
what it needs. I think that this is also part
of like nervous system regulation. I think that their sex, intimacy,
nervous system regulation are all intertwined. It's your ability to
understand what this vessel is. But it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable
(29:17):
because why is it uncomfortable? Because there's a lot of
opinions about it, and we've been taught, oh, if it
doesn't look like this, it's not good, if it doesn't
act like this, and we're all living in this secrecy
as opposed to what I'm trying to do is say,
have the conversation out loud, and you'll find out that
your volva and that vulva don't look alike and they're
not supposed to, babe, and your volva is perfect and
(29:40):
that volva is perfect. Right, let's have a conversation. Your
penis isn't working. Their penises don't work either sometimes, and
they sometimes need you know, ed medication or they need
a little week whatever it is. But like, let's not
let's not be in secrecy around this and pretend like
we've all got it figured out. That's where the performance
comes in, where we're trying to show people I have
it figured out, as opposed to again saying I don't
(30:03):
know and I'm actually kind of freaked out about this,
or like I'm not or I don't know. Maybe I
think this should work like this, but somebody else said
it should be like this. Can somebody tell me the truth?
You got to say it out loud so that people
can actually offer the truth and show up for you
in the way that you need.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You need support exactly. And I say this, like, we
also have to reconnect with ourselves. I love that year
talking about like how the fuck am I supposed to
tell my partner what I want? If I don't know
what I want?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Literally, there's a myth that people will be like, my
partner should just know, babe, grow up, grow up, babe.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
How yeah, and then have enough fucking respect just to
be like, what do you like and what do you want?
And what feels good to you? And like I want,
like not necessarily in the moment do I want to
be asked a hundred questions, but like I'm gonna tell
you when I like something, and you're gonna know when
(31:03):
I don't, because like that is a part about being
connected to your partner, and that's what you know. I
just think we're so driven by so much shame when
it comes to sex, sex and identity and all these things.
I'm like, no, no, no, you can be a freak.
You can say the things you want. If someone loves you,
(31:23):
like which I hope they do in a relationship, they
want to give you what you all I want to
do is liter feel good? Please, Sophia, that is really honey.
You tell me what you want, I'll give it to
you all fucking day.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
One thousand percent. I want I love you, I want
you to feel pleasure, and I want to bring that
to you. You love me, you want me to feel pleasure.
But this is why your partners and your community are important,
and so like, if you are in a partnership where
you don't feel like you can ask for things, that's
a flag. That's like, I'm not going to call it
a red flag because it's something we can grow through,
(31:58):
but it should put your Scooby there, because you're Scooby
doo ears up and you should be like, huh, I'm
this is my partner, like we should be able or
this is my best friend, like we should be able
to be like girl, does it do this to you
as well? Do yours look like that? What else should
I be trying over here? Or I think I like
it when you do this? Or I think it do
(32:19):
you like it when I like? We should be able
to have those conversations without the like teenage embarrassment. It's
like we're grown now and it's important for us to
be able to articulate. And I think also for long
term relationships, it's like it's gonna change. You might not
have liked when I touched your nipple this way in
(32:39):
year one, but now it's your five, you might really
like it. Your body's gonna change, the trust is gonna evolve,
and so this idea that we should just keep the
same blueprint makes no sense. We should always be in conversation,
always be curious about like what turns you on?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And w'erever like we're evolving and changing too. Yes, Like
that's the part. It's like what I may I mean,
even weakly, I'm like, oh, I didn't fuck with that
a week ago. In really I'm like, whoa that going on?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
But I'm here absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I always tell people to start with if they're looking
for their turn on, start with the acronym BEMA. BIMA
is a term that's used for like a stage where
orators used to speak, and so I like to think
about it for communication. So it says for body environment,
mood accouterments. So I ask, like, where on your body
do you like to be touched, kissed, sniffed, and be
specific like other than your genitals or your lips. I
(33:48):
like to be kissed. I like my armpit sniffed. Or
I like my chest kissed, or I like the back
of my neck stroke Like where on your body do
you like these senses? Then it's environment Where do you
like to have sex? I like it in the bedroom.
I like it in the kitchen. I love a bathroom moment,
whatever it is. Ya, how do you like to set
the mood? That's the m so like I need candles,
(34:10):
I need a scent. I like I love a nice
smell in the room. I need a playlist. You know,
some people need the shades closed, some people want the
blinds open, Like how do you set the mood? And finally,
as which I call the props for play like do
you need a dildo? Do you need a vibrator? Do
you need some weed? Do you like do you straps? Swings? Lube?
(34:33):
Everybody needs lube, you know, like but like to and
I say, like, start with one in each and as
you learn your body, add it to your list because
your there. Your list can be so long, which will
just open your sex that much more. But it's overwhelming
to start one just right down, one place in your body,
one environment, one mood. Wan that's four things, and what
(34:56):
a wonderful place just start, and a way to articulate
to your partner if you can articulate for those things.
I like to be kissed on my neck. I like
when we have sex in the bedroom. I like when
there's a nice lavender candle or I'm on lavender today
and I want you to use a butt plug. Ah
this we can start like, let's go like so and
(35:18):
also build your room map.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
It can start off messy.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It can start off it's supposed to.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
It's you are like no one just jumped, you know,
like I'm gonna give you a little sporty spy. No
one's jumping into soccer practice for the first time and
expecting to be a starter, Like you can't. You gotta
like practice, honey. It takes work, like you gotta like
get that chemistry and all those things popping. I think
(35:44):
so often which I was gonna ask you this, and
I'm answering at myself, but like I think I was
going to ask you, what's like so false and dating?
And I think a lot of people say you know,
you really need to have sex with someone to figure
out if that connection is something that's sustainable throughout a relationship.
(36:04):
And I'm like, there are lots and I'll speak from
you know, as a woman who is an emotional being,
and I think more men are now understanding far more
so for me. It's like my sexual like feelings in
the moment can shape shift at any given moment based
(36:26):
on my experience, based on where like where I am
in my head, Do I have a lot going on?
Am I emotional from this? Or am I shut off
from that? It's like it really plays with my sexual drive.
So I also think you can't just judge one sexual
moment and hold that like it's the whole, Like entire
(36:49):
relationship is going to be based on that one moment.
You can't.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You really can't. I mean two thinks. One for the
emotional girlies, because I'm an emotional girly. It is liberating
to just admit that you are an emotional girly because
some of us like need Some people can just like
wake up and they're like, let's go, But some of
us like are emotional and it and being especially like
men and male bodied having the permission to admit that,
(37:14):
like I need an emotional connection and that my sexuality
or my sexualness is going to waiver and oscillate around
my emotions. Like I know, for example, like sex during
the week is a little hard for me because I'm
so in my work mode that weekends are just I'm
better on the weekends because I can like shut it off.
But that's really liberating. So anyone who's like struggling to
(37:37):
like be turned on all the time, it's like you
might be much more emotional and give yourself that permission.
The second thing is that sex is not just about penetration,
and so I think that that's where we also get lost,
is that sex has to be about something going into
a hole. And it's like sex to me can be
a conversation. Sex can be us looking into each other's eyes. Right,
(37:57):
that the sexual connection and chemistry that we're looking for
isn't this one thing which you know, and our culture
tends to be about the penis inside of a vulvet.
It's like, no, no, that's that's a version, but that's
not the only thing. And you will screw yourself if
everything is dependent on that something going into a hole,
as opposed to how do we hold hands together? How
(38:20):
do you talk to me about your your feelings? Intimacy
is part of the sex. How do we quote unquote
foreplay is sex? Like it's not the before, like sometimes
that could be the whole thing, No pun intended, but
like sides, you know, sides get a lot of shit
for not wanting penetration, and like that is so there
(38:40):
have been times where there have been no penetration and
I've had a far more transformative experience because There's been
just more connection with that person and there was no
penetration and we were able to make out or touch
each other and have a far more transformative time than
with penetration. So, so expand your definition of sex. I think,
(39:02):
well it is a really important step in one owning
their their body and one owning their relationship. To what
sex is?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I love this. Do you have a personal ick sexually?
Is there something where you're just like when you guys
are like in the moment, whatever's going down? Like what
is your one like no, no, no, no, no, oh?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Once my one ick? My one ick is actually when
when and this is I think very specific to being
like gay male relationships, is when there is a desire
to like keep me in a box. I'm verse, so
I'll be top bottom. So I one time had a
partner who had said if they saw me, uh, bottoming,
(39:52):
it would turn them off. And so like that that
was an ick for me where it's like because I'm
they're part of that top And I was like, you,
what does that mean like that for me? First, first
of all, that's less to do with me and more
to do with them. Yeah, but it was like, oh,
I don't like that you want to put me in
this box about how I can express my sexuality, because
(40:13):
then it becomes I'm just here as a tool, like
I have to be your top, but you don't get
to see the rest of who I am. I'm not
asking you to tap me, but like the rest of
who I am should also be allowed to show up
in this space, whether or not I'm bottoming in this moment.
So that that's an ick where people try to like, well,
you're tall, so you should be a top. Where you
(40:34):
are feminine, so you should. It's like there are some
feminine gay boys who like know how to beat their face.
We call them blouses, right they tops? Okay? They and
they will blow your back out right. So I don't
like the idea of based on how you look or whatever,
that you should be put in a category. It's like,
allow people to be as expansive as they want to
(40:58):
be and to and to show up in their fullness.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It's so true. It's so true. And it's like I,
I mean, I find absolutely zeroick when it comes to
my partner. Yes, absolutely obsessed with her, but I guess
my like one thing I don't fuck with is like
someone sticking their tongue in my around or sucking on
my ear, like okay, I don't need a wet willie, honey,
(41:25):
do not be doing like oh am I? And then
I'm like fair, I'm like this, that's fair, that's fair,
Like what what is what?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Okay? Now I will say this. I thought I wasn't
into it either, and then my partner did it to
me and I was like, oh, there is a way
to do it there. I like, listen, it might be
too many, too many nerves in your ear, and you're like,
I just get but I have I do feel like
I'm like sometimes i'd be playing around because I'm like
I do think that, like there is a way to
do this that like you can get the sensation without
(41:57):
all the wetness. Yeah, I'm with you. Okay, there's too
much slave You're like, girl, am I underwater? Like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And then it's like my whole energy. All I keep
thinking about is like should I do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Get a cute ropat and I'll come back promise I'll
be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yes, I love it. Oh what what's something? Because I
think your podcast title is also and your you know,
just everything about messy is so good because it's literally
who we are, like messy, messy.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
All of us. I say messy as a human, like
MESSI is human, it's flawed, it's imperfect, and MESSI is
not the same as sloppy.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
No, okay, there's something messy you've learned to embrace like
about yourself through this experience.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
You know what comes to mind? It may not be
it's fun of an answer, but it's it's the evolution.
It's that like I'm a recovering perfectionist, is what I
always say, Like I'm a girly who loves perfection. Okay, yeah,
you're an act Like you're like, oh, nothing said, maybe
nothing thatisfies me more than executing something perfectly like it is,
(43:09):
it look like me like my eyes are rolling back.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It is.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
It is better than an orgasm to do something perfectly,
but it also is such a it's such a shackle.
It like keeps you from living because you have to
be so measured. And so for me, the messy thing
that I've embraced is that I'm always going to evolve
and always going to be changing and allow and giving
myself permission to do that, permission to be like, Okay,
I did feel this way, but I don't feel that
(43:32):
way anymore, or I didn't feel that way then, but
I feel this way now, or I did want that
and I want this other thing now. And instead of
getting frustrated with like, but you're supposed to be this
and you're you said you like you know, like to
be like no, Like, I'm evolving and I'm changing and
I don't know everything. And thirty nine year old me
and thirty five year old me are not the same,
(43:53):
right like thirty nine Like thirty nine yearld me and
twenty nine year old me are certainly not the same.
So why would I still be holding the same views
as the twenty nine year old version if I now
have ten more years of experience that would change that
and shift that, and that I should allow space for that.
I should. A lot of us, I always say, are
still working off of childhood blueprints, like playground blueprints. I
(44:17):
use my nose as an example. As a kid, I
always thought if I ever got any surgery, it would
be on my nose, because I thought because I got
teased about my nose, and somewhere in my late twenties,
I was like, it would be so interesting that I
would get my nose done based off of something a
six year old said to me when I was six. Wow,
because I never questioned, wait, is my nose crazy? And
(44:40):
that's a lot of us, like, we have all these
things that people told us as kids and we never
questioned it, and our adult selves are operating off of
those and it's like, no, no, no, you get to change.
You get to change your opinion about yourself, You get
to change how you feel about a thing, You get
to change the narratives because you're older and you have
more information to embrace that. So that and that's messy
(45:02):
though that is it sounds cute, but I promise you isn't. Yeah,
it's internal reckoning. But but it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Have you ever had a moment where your breakdown became
your breakthrough?
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Ashly?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I say that because I just experienced it in the
last few years.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Tell me, tell me about yours. Yes, I had answers, yes,
but tell me.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Well, I just yeah, I left a marriage I didn't
feel seen or wanted or worthy enough.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And I sat in it for a really long time
because of the shame of what it would feel like
to walk away from it. And I like burnt it
to the ground. And I lost a lot and I
lost a lot of me absolutely, and I also gained
(46:01):
so much, like I gained, I gained so much of
my life back because I became you know, I became
so good at shape shifting, Like I was a motherfucker,
Like I could shape shift and abandon myself. I got
so good at it. It was it was it was
(46:25):
really really scary, and like I really started diving into
the work. I started diving into my childhood blueprint and
I just really had to kind of burn everything to
the ground and I didn't have all the answers, and
I was living it in the public eye and it
(46:45):
was so hard. I was like, oh, I'm never going
to get out of this. And I said this to Sophia,
and I like, I haven't shared this, and I feel
safe enough to share it with you, but we like
we were intimate. And I started just like bawling afterwards,
and she was like, are you okay, Like is everything okay?
(47:06):
And I was like, yeah, I'm just having such a
profound moment. And it was because for so long when
I left my previous marriage, everyone was like, really weird
about me jumping into something so quickly, and I felt
a lot of shame around it based on what other
(47:29):
people felt, not what I internally felt, because it was
the first time I felt safe, I felt seen. I
felt like I didn't have to be that eight year
old hiding in the closet and running from everything, on
this pursuit of perfection and all these things. And I
just looked at her and I was like, you came
(47:51):
in when I was not the best version of myself.
I was so broken, I was so damaged, and all
she did was hold a mirror up to me. And
it wasn't about her that brought me back. It was
the way she saw me that I couldn't see myself. Yes,
And I was like It was the most self selfless
(48:14):
thing she could have given me. And the greatest breakthrough
is like really showing me who I am and how
worthy I am of this type of love and kindness
and care and intimacy and both physically and emotionally. And
it just even our intellectual conversations, Like I never thought
(48:34):
I was worthy of that type of love. And she
didn't fix me. It's the way she allowed me to
see myself. Yeah, and it healed me, and it gave
me this beautiful outlook on life and rebirth and becoming
and being okay to admit that, like I'm still figuring
(48:57):
it out, and like that is okay because I am
not perfect and I have been on this pursuit of
perfection that has made me become someone I don't recognize
when I look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah, your value didn't come from your productivity. Your worth
didn't come from your perfection. You were able to be yourself.
And I think the interesting thing about kind of judgment
around when we get from a relationship to another is
what people didn't see. They saw an external timeline, but
they didn't see the ways in which the marriage you
were already done and out and the ways in which
(49:36):
you burned it down. You know what I'm saying, Like
you let it burn. And so when the new relationship comes,
the new person comes, the timeline doesn't actually matter. It's
about where you are, right because somebody could have the
same timeline and it doesn't make sense because they didn't.
Where they were didn't make sense. But you were in
(49:57):
the ashes, you were in the rubble. We're willing. And
for a perfectionist, that's huge to like let yourself be
in the rubble and to be a mess and to
still let somebody see you and for them to see
you and love you in that. That is not something
you ignore. That's something that you I think you you
(50:18):
know you welcome in because I might even say you
hold on to you welcome in, hands open right because
if it wants to go, it wants to go, and
it taught a lesson. But like it's like, oh, I'm
going to allow this this love in and I'm gonna
allow myself be seen when I am my least perfect.
And if somebody can hold that, whether they're a romantic
(50:39):
partner or a friend, whatever, like you you let them, you,
you let them do that. I think that the old
you would have pushed it away, right, because I don't
want anyone to see me like this, and I have
to have everything together. And there's no way, you know,
for all the all the strong, all those who are
the strong ones, people can't show up for you if
(51:02):
you keep that facade on. They can't show up for
you the way you need if they don't know what's
going on. And so your willingness to be like this
is what it is. It's messy and I don't know
what it is and I'm maybe a little scared. And
the people who show up for you inside of that,
those are the people you keep around because they're going
to help you rebuild. And the thing about love, too,
(51:24):
my therapist it said to me, which I love, is
when we fall in love, it's because they are showing
us the parts we're falling it back in love with
ourselves because they're falling in love with these parts of
ourselves that we can't see, and now we see them
through their eyes, and so we fall in love with ourselves.
And that's why it's so beautiful. And I think that
that should always be what you look for in your partnership.
(51:46):
It's like, does this person make me fall in love.
We can have arguments, whatever, But does this person make
me fall in love with myself? Do I make them
fall in love with themselves? Like? Am i? Am I
tearing them down? Are they tearing me down? Or are
we pouring into each other? Like does it feel good
to look you in your eyes? I don't care if
we don't have sex or as often or whatever, or
(52:06):
if we're arguing sometimes that's your life. Is life? When
I look you in the eyes, do I feel safe?
Do I feel loved? Do I feel like I love myself?
Like that's the key.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
It's a freeing feeling of freedom.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, yeah, which is you don't know it until you
have it. Because I think a lot of our relationships,
you know, we get from television, and it's like the
wifely duty, the husbandly duty, like the duty of like
I don't have to take care of and it's like, yeah,
that's all great. There are responsibilities, but at the end
(52:42):
of the day, I should feel safe at I should
feel like this a fun place to be, you know,
at the baseline, the very bottom bar is like I
feel safe here, I feel taking care of here, I
feel like I can be myself here. Not a version
(53:03):
of myself if you're being a version of yourself. I
think that's probably my biggest breakdown was I had to
be a version of myself with my mother. You know,
I think that I think black community will feel this.
Caribbean community will definitely feel this. Where you grow up
and you're still a child and you still hold the
(53:23):
position of child and you're even though you're an adult
now and what that comes to a lot of control.
And so around my queerness, there was a desire my
mom had to control how I showed up because I
am quote unquote a reflection of her, and so if
I'm gay, then that is a reflection of her and
that's a sin. And so there was this this sharpening
(53:47):
of her claws and a tightening of her grip around
me that was suffocating. And what was difficult is my
mom was my best friend. I'm an only child. Yeah,
I was raised by this tribe, as I mentioned at
the top, but like, my mom was my my best friend.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
You know.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I did a show in New York called ho Church,
and I describe her as like I didn't know what
God was as a kid. Like as a kid, you're
just like you know God, Sure, I'll pray, but like
my mom was my deity, like that was she you know,
also a gay kid like that, Like she was on
a pedestal for me.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
And so when I realized at twenty something that it
was me or her, that like it was my life
or her life, and I had to choose mine, that
was the biggest heartbreak. It is still the greatest heartbreak.
But on the other side of it, I have this
(54:41):
beautiful life where I'm surrounded now by people who love
me as I am. I get to have the most
transformative conversations with people of all walks of life. I
get to make people feel good about who they are.
(55:03):
I get to like love. You know, my followers call
me messy Mom. I get to be this messy mom
who says who you are matters. And there's always, you know,
anyone who goes through no contact, there's always gonna be
a little pain around that. But what I've gained in
freeing myself is far greater. Right. I get to live
(55:25):
a bigger life, And so the breakdown was worth it
for this breakthrough. And so I would say to anyone,
don't be afraid of the breakdown, go through it. You know,
there's a reason I say, girl, I'm going through it. Yeah, yeah,
go through it, because the other side you will be sharper.
(55:45):
You won't be perfect, but you'll be more intentional and
clearer about what you will accept and what you won't accept.
And when you get that clarity about what you will
accept in your life, you can build something that is soft.
And I don't mean in like a superficial way, because
life is hard, but you should be a soft landing place.
(56:06):
Like if life is hard, I should not be hard as.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Well, my God to be can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Can you imagine to be by yourself? And like you're
so mean to yourself? No no, no, no no no no,
Like you have to be the softness that you're looking
for in the world. And that comes from taking a chance,
that comes from going through the storm, that comes from
getting clear about your boundaries, that comes from staying curious
(56:32):
and cultivating relationships or curiosity is the foundation. People don't
hold you to one version of yourself. In fact, be
welcome all the versions of yourself that will be coming
along the relationship. I love that.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
That's so beautifully said Brandon. Wow, you this is why
everyone needs to go listen to tell me something messy.
Oh my gosh, Yes, thank you so much for coming
on today, for being wide open, for giving us all
of the tea. Yes, thank you, because we need it.
(57:08):
We need more connection, we need more conversations that are real.
And I think maybe the goal is in perfection, and
maybe it's about honesty and just saying I don't have
it all figured out yet and I'm not supposed to and.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I'm not supposed to honesty, and even more so transparency.
That transparency is like when you offer it before you
even asked exactly. I think like going into spaces and
just offering it and saying, this is where I'm at,
this is how I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing,
what I'm going through, and you'll discover that you really
are not alone. I think that's the biggest takeaway for
(57:47):
Wide Open for telling me something messy is people knowing
you're not alone. Like this thing is hard and the
people who seem like they have it together are faking it.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Loved Yeah, yes, exactly, I don't know my day exactly exactly. Well,
I'm so grateful for the way you show up in
the world and what you give to us all through
your art and I'm just really happy that I got
to share oxygen with you for an hour. What a blessing.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
It's me too. I'm so glad I got to chat
with you. This was such a wonderful way for me
to start my in La. It's eleven o'clock now, so
wonderful to start my Friday morning.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
It's a little therapy. Honey. Well, yeah, thank you so
much for coming on. Everyone, go check out Brandon's podcast.
Tell Me something messy. And that's it for today. I'm
so sad I could talk to you.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
We'll do it again. We'll do it, okay.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Well, now we're just gonna have to have cute little
dinner dates. Okay in person. I can't wait, all right, honey, Well,
thanks for being here. Thanks everyone for tuning into another
episode of Wide Open. We'll see you next week. Thank
you Brandon for being wide open with us today. I
think what I love most about this conversation is that
it reminds us becoming yourself is actually not clean. It's
(59:05):
not linear, it's messy, it's uncomfortable. It's funny, emotional, liberating,
but most importantly ongoing. But maybe the goal isn't perfection.
Maybe the goal is honesty. To stop performing, to stop shrinking,
to stop apologizing for the parts of yourself that were
(59:26):
never meant to fit inside someone else's expectations. If this
episode resonates with you, make sure you subscribe, follow, and
most importantly, share it with someone who needs to hear
it the most. I'm Ashland Harris. This is wide open,
and we'll see you next week.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and as always, I'm so
happy everyone's here. I'm happy that I get to have
this time to connect with everyone. I hope everyone out
there is doing really well. I'm really excited to share
I am finally going on a vacation, a much needed
(00:24):
reset and pause. I don't usually give myself the space
to rest because I feel like I'm missing out on something,
I'm not doing enough, and there's just a lot of
like shame that comes with resting when you're a perfectionist.
So I'm heading off to Greece for a week to
(00:46):
unwind and disconnect. And Sophia likes to pack a lot.
We don't pack suitcases, we pack trunks. So that is
my queen and that's the way she loves to show up.
So I think this conversation you all are gonna love
so much today because we really talk about that and
(01:08):
the performative piece and giving yourself space and boundary and
healing and being able to admit you don't have it
all figured out. I want to continue being able to
learn to fill my cup up so I can be
the best version of myself for my family and my
kids and my friends, and I'm excited to do absolute
(01:32):
fucking nothing to be honest, and I'm more excited for
you to hear this episode. Brandon Kyle Goodman is a writer, actor, advocate,
and host of Tell Me Something Messy, a show that
dives headfirst into the chaos, contradictions, vulnerability, and beauty of
just being human. This conversation is about identity, intimacy, mental health, sexuality, performance, healing,
(01:59):
and the exact exhausting pressure to constantly explain yourself to
the world. But it's also funny, messy, honest, and freeing
because sometimes becoming yourself isn't graceful. Sometimes it's awkward, sometimes
it's loud. Sometimes it falls apart before it even comes together.
(02:19):
And honestly, that's where the good stuff lives. Without keeping
you all too long, let's get into it. This is
Wide Open, and here is Brandon Kyle Goodman. Welcome back,
(02:41):
everybody to another episode of Wide Open. I'm your host
Ashlyn Harris, and today we have Brandon Kyle Goodman. Welcome
to the show. Honey, how are you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I'm so good. I'm happy to be here. Although your
camera looks way better than mine. Really, I got a
new camera and it's like not as HD cute as
yours is, but that's all right, whatever, we'll figure it out.
You look stunning. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, honestly, I'm like I went to Sephora and I
shouldn't even say that they're not a sponsor, but I
went to ah someplace and I was like, I want
new makeup, just to play like love. Girls just want
to have fun even if you're you know, pretty mask
So here we are so h I really did? I
(03:25):
mean I walk out of these places and I'm like,
why is everything so expensive? Like I'm out here just
trying to look cute, and you guys are draining my
bank account.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
They really trying to get us down, and I don't
know what it is they're trying to keep us down.
It's like, please make this cheaper. Like when we were younger,
I feel like everything was it was affordable because we
were kids, and we want to pay for it exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I want to get back on that.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I want to get back on that. It was great. Also,
it was.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Like, oh, I can't wait to go to CBS to
get my makeup. My cover girl. I had a line
that was like.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Oh yes, the mask, the mask, I know all about that.
Absolutely little cvs, a little wallgreen. Oh days, you could
spend all day in front of those aisles.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Literally, you know, I just remember how much it would
just rub off on everything.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And just like your pillow is just a different shade.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I'm like, don't get too close with that hug.
I might wipe my finger off.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I know, because my I have like the because I
have the darker shade. Sometimes I'm so afraid to hug
people because I'm like, if it's not set, your nice
white shirt is gonna have a very clear, uh black
mark on it.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Love, I hear you. There's I really do have two
pet peeves. Really Okay, So we're just gonna really dive
into this this one. We're just warming up, honey, we're
warming up. Yeah, two pet peeds. Uh. And it mostly
stems This one mostly stems from women when I'm at
events and I have a really nice suit on and
I go to say hello to someone or like a
(04:55):
fan wants to take a picture and they put their
arm around me. Yeah, and then I'm like, I know
I don't smell like that. I know.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
You said that, can't be me. That can't be me
at all, and I got yeah, yeah, you know what
that does it to me. It's like an uber or
a lyft when you get in and it smells terrible
and you're like, but I just spent so much time
trying to smell good, and now I'm going to smell
like whatever is going on in this car that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Or it smells like potpourri that I like, I want
to be a dog, putting my head outside the window, being.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Like, yes, yes, I immediately have to hit that that
automatic roll the window down. Love, I don't care if
it's wintertime.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Oh, I'm like an uber axe kind of gall. I'm
like drinking it.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yes, please? What's the second pet peeve?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Second pet peeve is exactly what you're talking about when
someone hugs me and I am in a white because like,
I'm an old school kind of gal, Like I like
to iron my clothes. It's chriss so vintage. Oh my god,
she really is, she really is.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
She was like you at the board and everything.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Oh, I need the crease. I need it. I tish
my fucking jeans.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh wow, you crease? Do you crease them in the middle?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
In the middle? Oh, she came to party and she
was like, oh, I'm gonna pay twenty dollars at this thrift,
but I'm gonna make it look five hundred absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Okay, Okay, so you got the crisp. But then when
people get there different.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Like when they like, yeah, when they get there, and
then all night I gotta walk around like you.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Gotta get that tied. That's tied to go, so you
could just bye.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's my two pet pets, I really Or like when
someone comes in and I have full glam, full hair
and makeup and they like, kiss my cheek, but I'm like,
I just need air kisses hunting. Just give me air.
Do not be put in your makeup and your your gloss,
not setting makeup online. I don't know it's an air
(07:06):
kiss or nothing at all exactly. That's like the one
good thing about COVID. And trust me, I am so
affectionate and so handsy with everyone, like my best friends,
probably people I don't even know. I just am a lover.
I love people. But like COVID was nice. It was like,
give me some of that, like.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
See you later, give me some space love. Yeah, yeah
at the shoulder, agreed, agreed, Because sometimes you're like, I
don't want to be affectioned with everybody, and so I
get that.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I love it. I love it. So speaking of times
of wild like shutdowns and everything, when you started messy Monday,
was that during COVID?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I was during the pandemic? Yeah, yeah, that was the summer,
the summer of twenty twenty maybe, like god, yeah, August
or September.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And that's like where all of this stemmed from.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That's where everything stemmed from. Yeah, Like my whole little
ecosystem came from like one little story, which was like,
tell me something good or messy. And you know, thankfully
for me, everyone was home and they were horny and
had nothing to do, so they wanted to talk and
I was like, great, tell me everything, tell me something messy.
(08:19):
So that's where everything kind of stemmed from.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Well, what was it like for you? I'm curious because
I want to start from a more interesting because I
do think the most interesting part of people's stories as
like who they were before the world actually told them
who they were supposed to be. Yeah, tell me about
you growing up and what it was like as like
(08:45):
a young kid, and like, I just want a little
bit of a context to understand where we are today.
As someone I love to absorb your content. I'm just like, Okay,
where did all this come from? And I imagine there's
such a beautiful journey to you becoming you know who
you are today. So tell me a little bit about
(09:05):
your childhood.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, you know, it's one of my favorite questions is
who would I be of society never got its hands
on me. That's my favorite question to ask. And you know,
it's a hodgepodge of I think good things, painful things,
sweet things, awkward things that kind of make up all
of us. But my childhood was I grew up in Queens,
New York, and I was raised by my grandmother, my mother,
(09:28):
and my godmother basically lived in the house with the
three of them, and then my godfather lived down the block,
and I had another godmother that lived across the street.
So I was really raised by this like tribe of
incredible parental figures. My grandmother was from Trinida. My grandmother
and mother were born in Trinidad, so I'm first generation American,
and the godmother that lived with us was Jamaican, So
(09:48):
there was a lot of Caribbean roots inside of the
household and a lot of Caribbean. I think politics in
that way, where you know, how you dressed was really
important and how you looked, how you spoke. When I
would growing up, I'd be like, you know, are we
going into Manhattan? And I'd be like, uh uh Manhattan
ten Like oh sure, so sure. Yeah. So there was
(10:09):
a lot and my grandmother's also a minister, so I
grew up a PK, a pastor's kid, So I went
to church with my grandmother every Sunday. My mom, interestingly enough,
she of course grew up the first PK of the household,
but then when I was born, she I think kind
of used it as an out. She was like, Okay,
well you're going to be the PK and I'm going
(10:29):
to go try other things. And so she was definitely
trying other religions, other spiritualities, Buddhism. There was a little
bit of a hotep moment, there was metaphysical like she
was just always on this exploration. And when I was
around a teenager, I think that she really recognized that,
like my grandmother's church was draining me and in uh,
(10:52):
I don't think that want a technology. There was a
queerness yet, but she could tell that there was something
that was maybe familiar in her experience, was that I
was shrinking a bit, and so she took me out
of that church and just let me follow her around.
And so my teenage years, my middle school teenage yeers
were really spent just bouncing around different spiritualities and different religions,
and they kind of informed that. Plus going to school
(11:15):
at the United Nations International School just like open me
up to, oh, there are more ways to live and
there are more cultures and more experiences than just my own,
and how does that feed into who I want to become? Yeah?
That was I think that's like the the foundation is
(11:35):
like this curiosity was always there, especially around religion and spirituality.
I was always fascinated by it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. Mm hmmm. So it's
so interesting. You have such a beautiful like background, which
totally made sense in your openness like now of who
(12:04):
you are and your ability to have such hold such
beautiful conversations with intention, And I think it's like not
as easy as people make it out to be, just
not It's hard to create that safe space or someone's
just ready to like open up, get messy.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yeah yeah, and I only talk about the things that
are unprocessed and talk about the things that are a
little bit taboo. Which is the point of everything I
do is that I think, well, eventually my mother became
a born again Christian, So for we don't know is
that we haven't been in relationship for about the last
fifteen years, almost sixteen because she became born again after
(12:48):
my grandmother passed away, and I am a flaming home
I say actual will and I love to suck things,
So there was there was a lot of tension around that,
and eventually I made the decision this like really strong
boundary to go what we now call no contact. But
I originally it was like just kind of estrangement, but
(13:12):
it forced me to become my own parent. And in fact,
I had a mentor that said when this was beginning,
she was like, if you were your own parent, what
advice would you give yourself? And that's how I kind
of started to make these decisions. But it kind of
also opened up the reality that as adults, depending on
where our lineage is, what our parents were, we don't
(13:34):
necessarily have someone showing us how to get through things
because no one wants to talk about it. We go
from children, and I'm sure you know this as a mother, right,
Kids are so curious they want to know everything, and
then around teenage years it becomes uncool to not know
and everything has to be like a yes or no,
black or white, and we carry that into our adulthood
(13:55):
and we just stop questioning things. And so instead of going, oh,
I actually don't know how I feel about that, or
maybe I do like to wear pink, or maybe I
want my hair like that, or maybe I want to
live over here, and so instead of asking those questions,
we attach ourselves to having an authoritative opinion and it
cuts us off. And so I really want to create
a space. It's like it's okay to not know. In fact,
(14:17):
saying I don't know is the most liberating thing you
could ever say, because it means that anything is possible.
That part is that you can still be curious, and
you can still evolve, and you can still like this
is our first time here. And so I want to
create spaces where we can get it wrong as opposed
to the Internet. As you well know, it's like if
you say the wrong thing, everybody's upsets like I'm an
(14:37):
evolving human. That opinion that I had might be completely
wrong and in two years I get to say I
was wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But yeah, we don't give people space to do that,
to grow that sense of becoming and to evolve, as
life is moving fucking fast fast, righting.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Ever, with this social media internet of it all, it's
so fast.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It's okay to change your mind, it's okay to get
it wrong. I think that's what I love and what
like is brewing in my mind right now and I
kind of want to tap into it. It is this
we have become so performative. Oh yeah, honey, it's like
and as someone who is an actor, a writer, a
(15:20):
public voice, I think a lot of people are performing
constantly now, even outside of their job, even outside of
the entertainment space, Like it is a survival mode to
fall in line because we have this toxic cancel culture.
Everyone is just like so every nerve ending is raw
(15:42):
and I feel it. I feel like I'm chewing on
barbed wire every day. So I'm like, it's like such
a jump scare thing that I don't want to upset anyone.
I don't want to like, oh if I do this,
like well, I lose brand endorsements, like is this going
to affect my bottom line? And it's this constant fucking
hamster wheel I'm spinning on, and I'm like, but what
(16:05):
about me? I'm like, I'm a deeply flawed human who
is living life in the fucking public eye. Yeah, and
it's hard and I get it wrong, and I'm just curious, like,
do you feel like most people are performing versions of
themselves right now? Constantly?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I think that ninety nine percent of people are performing
a version because we haven't been taught to ask any
questions about who we actually are. So there's no way
for us to show up, you know, authentic with such
a big word in twenty twenty twenty twenty one, there's
no actual way for us to show up authentically if
we're not first asking questions, right, And it's scary to
(16:46):
ask questions because we're told, and you know we can.
Let we can take this, you can take it into
microcosm and blow it up. But let's just use queerness
for a second. Right, boys are wear blue, girls wear pink. Right,
So if you're if you never question that, you just
follow this blueprint that isn't even yours to follow. You
might be a boy and you might like lavender, you know,
(17:08):
but you've never been given the opportunity to want something
apart from blue or apart from pink. And so how
are you not performing?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Ye? I think it's kids. I mean, this is why
kids are so special, and children are so special is
because before they're told, they are just existing, just being,
and then we kind of train these things out of them,
We train their es. Big Mouth was one of the
greatest gifts for my life because as an animated series,
(17:38):
it required me to tap into my imagination and I
didn't realize how much I had cut that off before
I got there, because as an adult, right like, cartoons
are childish or your imagination is silly, like we got
to deal with logic and facts, whereas your dreams and
your the ability to build the life that you want
for yourself and to be the person that you want
(17:59):
to be lives in your imagination. And if you don't
have access to that, then you're just playing a role.
You're just a carbon copy. You're just looking at people
and going, oh, I should be that. And I think
our social media exacerbates that, where now everyone is a brand,
everyone is also and this is no shade. But it's
like we're making content that is like literally the same
(18:19):
that somebody else made. It's like, yeah, this is the
trending audio. This is a trending dance. Correct, So we're
all copying the same thing as opposed to what is
your dance? What is your audio? And that's just trick
into our lives.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
You know, it's so true because like I also think
it's so different. I know, you know you have you know,
part of your life has been You've been raised in
this industry of entertainment and acting, and you know, being
with Sophia, like she watches her every move every time
(18:55):
I am, like I was raised in a locker room.
We like pee and shit with the door open. We
don't close, Like I don't. I'm fucking walking around naked.
I don't give a shit. Literally, I just don't care.
And it's so funny because I you know, she'll be
sleeping and I'm like making coffee naked. All the windows
(19:17):
are open. I'm walking and I'm flinging the dream open
and I'm like, good morning, beautiful, Like I want to
have fun. And I remember when we were first together,
like dating, she was like probably this bitch is absolutely bonkers.
But now I'm seeing her like be a little cracked,
(19:38):
wide open, and now like even today we're dancing, we
wake up, no one's no one's even watching. It's just
the freedom to be exactly who we want to be
in moments without someone questioning it, giving their you know, judgment,
which Jesus Chris all the fucking time. But it's just
(19:58):
so true, like it so much of this industry really
takes from you and hardens you in a way where
you feel like you have to be perfect and you
have to fall in line. But do you think society
actually gives people enough room to kind of do both
and both? You know, you talk about masculinity, both soft
(20:19):
and strong, Like I have a three year old currently
identifies as a boy, a son who loves his nails done,
who loves to wear a dress and a tutu, like
just loves to twirl, loves to like be in the
mirror and like boom hip hop, and like I love
(20:40):
that about him, Like I love that he gets to
express himself however the fuck he wants. Like he loves
pink because his older sister loves pink, so it's like
he loves a TU two because his sister loves A
too too, And now we are in full blown dresses
and it's just like it is like I am reclaiming
(21:04):
my joy by seeing the world through his lens because
he hasn't been jaded or tainted yet by society's expectations
of why you're wearing that? Boys don't wear that? Right,
He's so free and so fully him fucking sulf Like
I'm envious of my three year old. Yeah, that he
(21:26):
is just purely showing up and I am so grateful
as his parent and his mom to give him the
space to explore it allugh, Like I didn't have that
oh at all at all.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And when you said that, I'm like,
I'm also thinking about it's not just about the pink,
but it's also about like the connection the love he
has for his sister and his way of expressing that
love by like trying to mimic her, And how sad
it would be to try and take that from him,
you know, try and take that action, that expression where
(22:01):
it's like you you should like you should learn that
how you want to express yourself is correct, Like there's
nothing wrong with that that for whatever reason. Other people
I was. I interviewed Liz Plank and we were talking
about how everything just like boils down to like five
straight white men just want to control everything. And it's like,
(22:23):
for what reason. It's like, you want to wear a dress,
wear you want, you don't, don't like, Just be just
be aheend and it'll evolve and it'll change and you
get to play. Lauren Hill says, anything that's not growing
is dead, and it's like, yes, just continue to evolve
and change. And this year you might like pink. Next
year you might like blue, next year you might like lavin,
like whatever it is. Just give yourself the permission to
(22:44):
do that. And you're you're giving him such a gift
by allowing that, you know, by like giving him a
space to know, Oh, this is what it feels like
to take space and to express.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I love that. What do you think happens like emotionally
when we stop seeking that approval?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know, I think we not to be dramatic, but
I think we die inside. We definitely harden inside, and
we have less access to ourselves. You know. One of
the things I always ask for as a as a performer,
and why my acting career is like intentionally I've taken
a step back from it. Is because the characters tend
to be very one note and I always say I
want to be able to play with all the crayons
(23:24):
in the color box of humanity, and they don't often
let you know, a black, dark skin queer fem character
do that. But that's also what I want in life,
is for us to have access to all the colors
in the crayton box of our humanity. And many of
us have like two colors, you know, and we vacillate
between the two. Some of us have one and that's it,
and it's and that's not living. That's not to me,
(23:47):
that's not a full life. It's understandable though, because I
also want to acknowledge that life is hard and there
are reasons that we have these walls and these armors up.
But I think it's like, can you, by brick by brick,
start to dismantle the armor, And not that you don't
need safety from certain things and people, but there are ways,
(24:10):
I think, to erect boundaries that still allow you to
have access to yourself. In fact, that is the purpose
of boundaries. Like boundaries to me, is not about keeping
things out. It's actually about allowing you to be more
open because you know where you'll go and where you won't.
You know where it is okay for you to be
your full self, and you won't put yourself in situations
(24:34):
where it's not okay. That, to me is what boundaries
is. Is about allowing you to live a fuller, more realized,
open life as opposed to, you know, having to go
back to those one or two colors.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, exactly, just doing the same thing. And I really
think that, you know, as also a very very queer woman,
I do think and I move differently in the world,
and I find that people are really envious of that.
Those on the other side who are so quick to
(25:08):
judge or take away basic rights for all of us.
You're talking about all the colors and crowns in a box.
It's like they have been so deeply curated to become
a person of order, to fall in line, and they
(25:29):
see people like us who live this beautiful, colorful life,
and I feel that they're envious. I think people are
waking up and realizing they've spent years disconnected from themselves emotionally, physically, spiritually,
but because they're trying to do what society has branded
them to do for decades, and then they get to
(25:52):
the other side and they're like, have I lived a
full fucking life? Is this? It?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
No? And I think that is the liberation. That is
the freedom of which us on the queer side get
to show what is possible by living colorful lives, by
living openly and freely and not feeling like, oh, we're
told to do this, so we've got to do it.
It's like, no, fuck that we're doing exact. All of
(26:22):
us are so different. We show up so differently and
like we're so accepting and so loving because we know
how beautiful that makes our community, Like I am obsessed
with it, like I am. And we are open about
our sexuality, we're open about mental health. Like this is
(26:43):
all the things that you bring to people, especially through
you know, the Messy Mondays and your podcast, Like I
love how you are talking about topics other people aren't
willing to dive into. And I don't know if that's shame.
I don't know if that's a performative piece yeah, or
if it's uncomfortable. I find that like a lot of
(27:07):
straight since people are really uncomfortable talking about talking about intimacy,
and I'm like, I had that issue and I felt
a lot of shame around it because I felt the
projection of well, sex is and everything, and intimacy is
and everything. And now I'm on the other side of
(27:28):
this new learning and humanizing and shedding of skin. I'm like, oh, no,
fuck that. It's like that is a non negotiable for me.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, it's a couple of things. I want to say.
People are deeply uncomfortable, and I think straight people are
deeply uncomfortable. It's also interesting to run into queer people,
it makes sense, who are also deeply uncomfortable and sometimes
even more uncomfortable around especially talking about queer sex. You'll
find that queer people tend to be even more uncomfortable,
which is in its own way of performance, because it's
(27:57):
something that's been learned and you see it through like
a lot of us who might be in the sex
space or sex education, even like brands won't touch it
because it's so uncomfortable. And yet sex is everywhere, you know,
like there are there are all our shows. You can't
make a show without somebody.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
We're all doing it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
We're all we're all doing We're all here because of
some version of it. And I thought that sex was
this salacious thing as well, but really it's a it's
a way to tap into your body, even if you're asexual, right,
Like the ability to understand what you like in the
bedroom or what you like with your body gives you
a different power because this is the vessel you're with
(28:35):
twenty four to seven. So imagine you're with this vessel
twenty four seven and you don't even know what touching
your nipples does to it, or like what grazing your
your beard or your hair or you know, your the
inside of your arm like turns you on or turns
you off. It's like, this is this is yours. It
doesn't want to anybody else. You should know every button
(28:56):
on this thing and how it works and when it
feels good and when it does doesn't feel good, and
what it needs. I think that this is also part
of like nervous system regulation. I think that their sex, intimacy,
nervous system regulation are all intertwined. It's your ability to
understand what this vessel is. But it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable
(29:17):
because why is it uncomfortable? Because there's a lot of
opinions about it, and we've been taught, oh, if it
doesn't look like this, it's not good, if it doesn't
act like this, and we're all living in this secrecy
as opposed to what I'm trying to do is say,
have the conversation out loud, and you'll find out that
your volva and that vulva don't look alike and they're
not supposed to, babe, and your volva is perfect and
(29:40):
that volva is perfect. Right, let's have a conversation. Your
penis isn't working. Their penises don't work either sometimes, and
they sometimes need you know, ed medication or they need
a little week whatever it is. But like, let's not
let's not be in secrecy around this and pretend like
we've all got it figured out. That's where the performance
comes in, where we're trying to show people I have
it figured out, as opposed to again saying I don't
(30:03):
know and I'm actually kind of freaked out about this,
or like I'm not or I don't know. Maybe I
think this should work like this, but somebody else said
it should be like this. Can somebody tell me the truth?
You got to say it out loud so that people
can actually offer the truth and show up for you
in the way that you need.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You need support exactly. And I say this, like, we
also have to reconnect with ourselves. I love that year
talking about like how the fuck am I supposed to
tell my partner what I want? If I don't know
what I want?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Literally, there's a myth that people will be like, my
partner should just know, babe, grow up, grow up, babe.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
How yeah, and then have enough fucking respect just to
be like, what do you like and what do you want?
And what feels good to you? And like I want,
like not necessarily in the moment do I want to
be asked a hundred questions, but like I'm gonna tell
you when I like something, and you're gonna know when
(31:03):
I don't, because like that is a part about being
connected to your partner, and that's what you know. I
just think we're so driven by so much shame when
it comes to sex, sex and identity and all these things.
I'm like, no, no, no, you can be a freak.
You can say the things you want. If someone loves you,
(31:23):
like which I hope they do in a relationship, they
want to give you what you all I want to
do is liter feel good? Please, Sophia, that is really honey.
You tell me what you want, I'll give it to
you all fucking day.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
One thousand percent. I want I love you, I want
you to feel pleasure, and I want to bring that
to you. You love me, you want me to feel pleasure.
But this is why your partners and your community are important,
and so like, if you are in a partnership where
you don't feel like you can ask for things, that's
a flag. That's like, I'm not going to call it
a red flag because it's something we can grow through,
(31:58):
but it should put your Scooby there, because you're Scooby
doo ears up and you should be like, huh, I'm
this is my partner, like we should be able or
this is my best friend, like we should be able
to be like girl, does it do this to you
as well? Do yours look like that? What else should
I be trying over here? Or I think I like
it when you do this? Or I think it do
(32:19):
you like it when I like? We should be able
to have those conversations without the like teenage embarrassment. It's
like we're grown now and it's important for us to
be able to articulate. And I think also for long
term relationships, it's like it's gonna change. You might not
have liked when I touched your nipple this way in
(32:39):
year one, but now it's your five, you might really
like it. Your body's gonna change, the trust is gonna evolve,
and so this idea that we should just keep the
same blueprint makes no sense. We should always be in conversation,
always be curious about like what turns you on?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And w'erever like we're evolving and changing too. Yes, Like
that's the part. It's like what I may I mean,
even weakly, I'm like, oh, I didn't fuck with that
a week ago. In really I'm like, whoa that going on?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
But I'm here absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I always tell people to start with if they're looking
for their turn on, start with the acronym BEMA. BIMA
is a term that's used for like a stage where
orators used to speak, and so I like to think
about it for communication. So it says for body environment,
mood accouterments. So I ask, like, where on your body
do you like to be touched, kissed, sniffed, and be
specific like other than your genitals or your lips. I
(33:48):
like to be kissed. I like my armpit sniffed. Or
I like my chest kissed, or I like the back
of my neck stroke Like where on your body do
you like these senses? Then it's environment Where do you
like to have sex? I like it in the bedroom.
I like it in the kitchen. I love a bathroom moment,
whatever it is. Ya, how do you like to set
the mood? That's the m so like I need candles,
(34:10):
I need a scent. I like I love a nice
smell in the room. I need a playlist. You know,
some people need the shades closed, some people want the
blinds open, Like how do you set the mood? And finally,
as which I call the props for play like do
you need a dildo? Do you need a vibrator? Do
you need some weed? Do you like do you straps? Swings? Lube?
(34:33):
Everybody needs lube, you know, like but like to and
I say, like, start with one in each and as
you learn your body, add it to your list because
your there. Your list can be so long, which will
just open your sex that much more. But it's overwhelming
to start one just right down, one place in your body,
one environment, one mood. Wan that's four things, and what
(34:56):
a wonderful place just start, and a way to articulate
to your partner if you can articulate for those things.
I like to be kissed on my neck. I like
when we have sex in the bedroom. I like when
there's a nice lavender candle or I'm on lavender today
and I want you to use a butt plug. Ah
this we can start like, let's go like so and
(35:18):
also build your room map.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
It can start off messy.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It can start off it's supposed to.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
It's you are like no one just jumped, you know,
like I'm gonna give you a little sporty spy. No
one's jumping into soccer practice for the first time and
expecting to be a starter, Like you can't. You gotta
like practice, honey. It takes work, like you gotta like
get that chemistry and all those things popping. I think
(35:44):
so often which I was gonna ask you this, and
I'm answering at myself, but like I think I was
going to ask you, what's like so false and dating?
And I think a lot of people say you know,
you really need to have sex with someone to figure
out if that connection is something that's sustainable throughout a relationship.
(36:04):
And I'm like, there are lots and I'll speak from
you know, as a woman who is an emotional being,
and I think more men are now understanding far more
so for me. It's like my sexual like feelings in
the moment can shape shift at any given moment based
(36:26):
on my experience, based on where like where I am
in my head, Do I have a lot going on?
Am I emotional from this? Or am I shut off
from that? It's like it really plays with my sexual drive.
So I also think you can't just judge one sexual
moment and hold that like it's the whole, Like entire
(36:49):
relationship is going to be based on that one moment.
You can't.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
You really can't. I mean two thinks. One for the
emotional girlies, because I'm an emotional girly. It is liberating
to just admit that you are an emotional girly because
some of us like need Some people can just like
wake up and they're like, let's go, But some of
us like are emotional and it and being especially like
men and male bodied having the permission to admit that,
(37:14):
like I need an emotional connection and that my sexuality
or my sexualness is going to waiver and oscillate around
my emotions. Like I know, for example, like sex during
the week is a little hard for me because I'm
so in my work mode that weekends are just I'm
better on the weekends because I can like shut it off.
But that's really liberating. So anyone who's like struggling to
(37:37):
like be turned on all the time, it's like you
might be much more emotional and give yourself that permission.
The second thing is that sex is not just about penetration,
and so I think that that's where we also get lost,
is that sex has to be about something going into
a hole. And it's like sex to me can be
a conversation. Sex can be us looking into each other's eyes. Right,
(37:57):
that the sexual connection and chemistry that we're looking for
isn't this one thing which you know, and our culture
tends to be about the penis inside of a vulvet.
It's like, no, no, that's that's a version, but that's
not the only thing. And you will screw yourself if
everything is dependent on that something going into a hole,
as opposed to how do we hold hands together? How
(38:20):
do you talk to me about your your feelings? Intimacy
is part of the sex. How do we quote unquote
foreplay is sex? Like it's not the before, like sometimes
that could be the whole thing, No pun intended, but
like sides, you know, sides get a lot of shit
for not wanting penetration, and like that is so there
(38:40):
have been times where there have been no penetration and
I've had a far more transformative experience because There's been
just more connection with that person and there was no
penetration and we were able to make out or touch
each other and have a far more transformative time than
with penetration. So, so expand your definition of sex. I think,
(39:02):
well it is a really important step in one owning
their their body and one owning their relationship. To what
sex is?
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I love this. Do you have a personal ick sexually?
Is there something where you're just like when you guys
are like in the moment, whatever's going down? Like what
is your one like no, no, no, no, no, oh?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Once my one ick? My one ick is actually when
when and this is I think very specific to being
like gay male relationships, is when there is a desire
to like keep me in a box. I'm verse, so
I'll be top bottom. So I one time had a
partner who had said if they saw me, uh, bottoming,
(39:52):
it would turn them off. And so like that that
was an ick for me where it's like because I'm
they're part of that top And I was like, you,
what does that mean like that for me? First, first
of all, that's less to do with me and more
to do with them. Yeah, but it was like, oh,
I don't like that you want to put me in
this box about how I can express my sexuality, because
(40:13):
then it becomes I'm just here as a tool, like
I have to be your top, but you don't get
to see the rest of who I am. I'm not
asking you to tap me, but like the rest of
who I am should also be allowed to show up
in this space, whether or not I'm bottoming in this moment.
So that that's an ick where people try to like, well,
you're tall, so you should be a top. Where you
(40:34):
are feminine, so you should. It's like there are some
feminine gay boys who like know how to beat their face.
We call them blouses, right they tops? Okay? They and
they will blow your back out right. So I don't
like the idea of based on how you look or whatever,
that you should be put in a category. It's like,
allow people to be as expansive as they want to
(40:58):
be and to and to show up in their fullness.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It's so true. It's so true. And it's like I,
I mean, I find absolutely zeroick when it comes to
my partner. Yes, absolutely obsessed with her, but I guess
my like one thing I don't fuck with is like
someone sticking their tongue in my around or sucking on
my ear, like okay, I don't need a wet willie, honey,
(41:25):
do not be doing like oh am I? And then
I'm like fair, I'm like this, that's fair, that's fair,
Like what what is what?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Okay? Now I will say this. I thought I wasn't
into it either, and then my partner did it to
me and I was like, oh, there is a way
to do it there. I like, listen, it might be
too many, too many nerves in your ear, and you're like,
I just get but I have I do feel like
I'm like sometimes i'd be playing around because I'm like
I do think that, like there is a way to
do this that like you can get the sensation without
(41:57):
all the wetness. Yeah, I'm with you. Okay, there's too
much slave You're like, girl, am I underwater? Like what's happening?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
And then it's like my whole energy. All I keep
thinking about is like should I do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Get a cute ropat and I'll come back promise I'll
be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yes, I love it. Oh what what's something? Because I
think your podcast title is also and your you know,
just everything about messy is so good because it's literally
who we are, like messy, messy.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
All of us. I say messy as a human, like
MESSI is human, it's flawed, it's imperfect, and MESSI is
not the same as sloppy.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
No, okay, there's something messy you've learned to embrace like
about yourself through this experience.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
You know what comes to mind? It may not be
it's fun of an answer, but it's it's the evolution.
It's that like I'm a recovering perfectionist, is what I
always say, Like I'm a girly who loves perfection. Okay, yeah,
you're an act Like you're like, oh, nothing said, maybe
nothing thatisfies me more than executing something perfectly like it is,
(43:09):
it look like me like my eyes are rolling back.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It is.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
It is better than an orgasm to do something perfectly,
but it also is such a it's such a shackle.
It like keeps you from living because you have to
be so measured. And so for me, the messy thing
that I've embraced is that I'm always going to evolve
and always going to be changing and allow and giving
myself permission to do that, permission to be like, Okay,
I did feel this way, but I don't feel that
(43:32):
way anymore, or I didn't feel that way then, but
I feel this way now, or I did want that
and I want this other thing now. And instead of
getting frustrated with like, but you're supposed to be this
and you're you said you like you know, like to
be like no, Like, I'm evolving and I'm changing and
I don't know everything. And thirty nine year old me
and thirty five year old me are not the same,
(43:53):
right like thirty nine Like thirty nine yearld me and
twenty nine year old me are certainly not the same.
So why would I still be holding the same views
as the twenty nine year old version if I now
have ten more years of experience that would change that
and shift that, and that I should allow space for that.
I should. A lot of us, I always say, are
still working off of childhood blueprints, like playground blueprints. I
(44:17):
use my nose as an example. As a kid, I
always thought if I ever got any surgery, it would
be on my nose, because I thought because I got
teased about my nose, and somewhere in my late twenties,
I was like, it would be so interesting that I
would get my nose done based off of something a
six year old said to me when I was six. Wow,
because I never questioned, wait, is my nose crazy? And
(44:40):
that's a lot of us, like, we have all these
things that people told us as kids and we never
questioned it, and our adult selves are operating off of
those and it's like, no, no, no, you get to change.
You get to change your opinion about yourself, You get
to change how you feel about a thing, You get
to change the narratives because you're older and you have
more information to embrace that. So that and that's messy
(45:02):
though that is it sounds cute, but I promise you isn't. Yeah,
it's internal reckoning. But but it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Have you ever had a moment where your breakdown became
your breakthrough?
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Ashly?
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I say that because I just experienced it in the
last few years.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Tell me, tell me about yours. Yes, I had answers, yes,
but tell me.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Well, I just yeah, I left a marriage I didn't
feel seen or wanted or worthy enough.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And I sat in it for a really long time
because of the shame of what it would feel like
to walk away from it. And I like burnt it
to the ground. And I lost a lot and I
lost a lot of me absolutely, and I also gained
(46:01):
so much, like I gained, I gained so much of
my life back because I became you know, I became
so good at shape shifting, Like I was a motherfucker,
Like I could shape shift and abandon myself. I got
so good at it. It was it was it was
(46:25):
really really scary, and like I really started diving into
the work. I started diving into my childhood blueprint and
I just really had to kind of burn everything to
the ground and I didn't have all the answers, and
I was living it in the public eye and it
(46:45):
was so hard. I was like, oh, I'm never going
to get out of this. And I said this to Sophia,
and I like, I haven't shared this, and I feel
safe enough to share it with you, but we like
we were intimate. And I started just like bawling afterwards,
and she was like, are you okay, Like is everything okay?
(47:06):
And I was like, yeah, I'm just having such a
profound moment. And it was because for so long when
I left my previous marriage, everyone was like, really weird
about me jumping into something so quickly, and I felt
a lot of shame around it based on what other
(47:29):
people felt, not what I internally felt, because it was
the first time I felt safe, I felt seen. I
felt like I didn't have to be that eight year
old hiding in the closet and running from everything, on
this pursuit of perfection and all these things. And I
just looked at her and I was like, you came
(47:51):
in when I was not the best version of myself.
I was so broken, I was so damaged, and all
she did was hold a mirror up to me. And
it wasn't about her that brought me back. It was
the way she saw me that I couldn't see myself. Yes,
And I was like It was the most self selfless
(48:14):
thing she could have given me. And the greatest breakthrough
is like really showing me who I am and how
worthy I am of this type of love and kindness
and care and intimacy and both physically and emotionally. And
it just even our intellectual conversations, Like I never thought
(48:34):
I was worthy of that type of love. And she
didn't fix me. It's the way she allowed me to
see myself. Yeah, and it healed me, and it gave
me this beautiful outlook on life and rebirth and becoming
and being okay to admit that, like I'm still figuring
(48:57):
it out, and like that is okay because I am
not perfect and I have been on this pursuit of
perfection that has made me become someone I don't recognize
when I look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah, your value didn't come from your productivity. Your worth
didn't come from your perfection. You were able to be yourself.
And I think the interesting thing about kind of judgment
around when we get from a relationship to another is
what people didn't see. They saw an external timeline, but
they didn't see the ways in which the marriage you
were already done and out and the ways in which
(49:36):
you burned it down. You know what I'm saying, Like
you let it burn. And so when the new relationship comes,
the new person comes, the timeline doesn't actually matter. It's
about where you are, right because somebody could have the
same timeline and it doesn't make sense because they didn't.
Where they were didn't make sense. But you were in
(49:57):
the ashes, you were in the rubble. We're willing. And
for a perfectionist, that's huge to like let yourself be
in the rubble and to be a mess and to
still let somebody see you and for them to see
you and love you in that. That is not something
you ignore. That's something that you I think you you
(50:18):
know you welcome in because I might even say you
hold on to you welcome in, hands open right because
if it wants to go, it wants to go, and
it taught a lesson. But like it's like, oh, I'm
going to allow this this love in and I'm gonna
allow myself be seen when I am my least perfect.
And if somebody can hold that, whether they're a romantic
(50:39):
partner or a friend, whatever, like you you let them, you,
you let them do that. I think that the old
you would have pushed it away, right, because I don't
want anyone to see me like this, and I have
to have everything together. And there's no way, you know,
for all the all the strong, all those who are
the strong ones, people can't show up for you if
(51:02):
you keep that facade on. They can't show up for
you the way you need if they don't know what's
going on. And so your willingness to be like this
is what it is. It's messy and I don't know
what it is and I'm maybe a little scared. And
the people who show up for you inside of that,
those are the people you keep around because they're going
to help you rebuild. And the thing about love, too,
(51:24):
my therapist it said to me, which I love, is
when we fall in love, it's because they are showing
us the parts we're falling it back in love with
ourselves because they're falling in love with these parts of
ourselves that we can't see, and now we see them
through their eyes, and so we fall in love with ourselves.
And that's why it's so beautiful. And I think that
that should always be what you look for in your partnership.
(51:46):
It's like, does this person make me fall in love.
We can have arguments, whatever, But does this person make
me fall in love with myself? Do I make them
fall in love with themselves? Like? Am i? Am I
tearing them down? Are they tearing me down? Or are
we pouring into each other? Like does it feel good
to look you in your eyes? I don't care if
we don't have sex or as often or whatever, or
(52:06):
if we're arguing sometimes that's your life. Is life? When
I look you in the eyes, do I feel safe?
Do I feel loved? Do I feel like I love myself?
Like that's the key.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
It's a freeing feeling of freedom.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, yeah, which is you don't know it until you
have it. Because I think a lot of our relationships,
you know, we get from television, and it's like the
wifely duty, the husbandly duty, like the duty of like
I don't have to take care of and it's like, yeah,
that's all great. There are responsibilities, but at the end
(52:42):
of the day, I should feel safe at I should
feel like this a fun place to be, you know,
at the baseline, the very bottom bar is like I
feel safe here, I feel taking care of here, I
feel like I can be myself here. Not a version
(53:03):
of myself if you're being a version of yourself. I
think that's probably my biggest breakdown was I had to
be a version of myself with my mother. You know,
I think that I think black community will feel this.
Caribbean community will definitely feel this. Where you grow up
and you're still a child and you still hold the
(53:23):
position of child and you're even though you're an adult
now and what that comes to a lot of control.
And so around my queerness, there was a desire my
mom had to control how I showed up because I
am quote unquote a reflection of her, and so if
I'm gay, then that is a reflection of her and
that's a sin. And so there was this this sharpening
(53:47):
of her claws and a tightening of her grip around
me that was suffocating. And what was difficult is my
mom was my best friend. I'm an only child. Yeah,
I was raised by this tribe, as I mentioned at
the top, but like, my mom was my my best friend.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
You know.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I did a show in New York called ho Church,
and I describe her as like I didn't know what
God was as a kid. Like as a kid, you're
just like you know God, Sure, I'll pray, but like
my mom was my deity, like that was she you know,
also a gay kid like that, Like she was on
a pedestal for me.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
And so when I realized at twenty something that it
was me or her, that like it was my life
or her life, and I had to choose mine, that
was the biggest heartbreak. It is still the greatest heartbreak.
But on the other side of it, I have this
(54:41):
beautiful life where I'm surrounded now by people who love
me as I am. I get to have the most
transformative conversations with people of all walks of life. I
get to make people feel good about who they are.
(55:03):
I get to like love. You know, my followers call
me messy Mom. I get to be this messy mom
who says who you are matters. And there's always, you know,
anyone who goes through no contact, there's always gonna be
a little pain around that. But what I've gained in
freeing myself is far greater. Right. I get to live
(55:25):
a bigger life, And so the breakdown was worth it
for this breakthrough. And so I would say to anyone,
don't be afraid of the breakdown, go through it. You know,
there's a reason I say, girl, I'm going through it. Yeah, yeah,
go through it, because the other side you will be sharper.
(55:45):
You won't be perfect, but you'll be more intentional and
clearer about what you will accept and what you won't accept.
And when you get that clarity about what you will
accept in your life, you can build something that is soft.
And I don't mean in like a superficial way, because
life is hard, but you should be a soft landing place.
(56:06):
Like if life is hard, I should not be hard as.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Well, my God to be can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (56:11):
Can you imagine to be by yourself? And like you're
so mean to yourself? No no, no, no no no no,
Like you have to be the softness that you're looking
for in the world. And that comes from taking a chance,
that comes from going through the storm, that comes from
getting clear about your boundaries, that comes from staying curious
(56:32):
and cultivating relationships or curiosity is the foundation. People don't
hold you to one version of yourself. In fact, be
welcome all the versions of yourself that will be coming
along the relationship. I love that.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
That's so beautifully said Brandon. Wow, you this is why
everyone needs to go listen to tell me something messy.
Oh my gosh, Yes, thank you so much for coming
on today, for being wide open, for giving us all
of the tea. Yes, thank you, because we need it.
(57:08):
We need more connection, we need more conversations that are real.
And I think maybe the goal is in perfection, and
maybe it's about honesty and just saying I don't have
it all figured out yet and I'm not supposed to and.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I'm not supposed to honesty, and even more so transparency.
That transparency is like when you offer it before you
even asked exactly. I think like going into spaces and
just offering it and saying, this is where I'm at,
this is how I'm feeling, this is what I'm experiencing,
what I'm going through, and you'll discover that you really
are not alone. I think that's the biggest takeaway for
(57:47):
Wide Open for telling me something messy is people knowing
you're not alone. Like this thing is hard and the
people who seem like they have it together are faking it.
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Loved Yeah, yes, exactly, I don't know my day exactly exactly. Well,
I'm so grateful for the way you show up in
the world and what you give to us all through
your art and I'm just really happy that I got
to share oxygen with you for an hour. What a blessing.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
It's me too. I'm so glad I got to chat
with you. This was such a wonderful way for me
to start my in La. It's eleven o'clock now, so
wonderful to start my Friday morning.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
It's a little therapy. Honey. Well, yeah, thank you so
much for coming on. Everyone, go check out Brandon's podcast.
Tell Me something messy. And that's it for today. I'm
so sad I could talk to you.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
We'll do it again. We'll do it, okay.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Well, now we're just gonna have to have cute little
dinner dates. Okay in person. I can't wait, all right, honey, Well,
thanks for being here. Thanks everyone for tuning into another
episode of Wide Open. We'll see you next week. Thank
you Brandon for being wide open with us today. I
think what I love most about this conversation is that
it reminds us becoming yourself is actually not clean. It's
(59:05):
not linear, it's messy, it's uncomfortable. It's funny, emotional, liberating,
but most importantly ongoing. But maybe the goal isn't perfection.
Maybe the goal is honesty. To stop performing, to stop shrinking,
to stop apologizing for the parts of yourself that were
(59:26):
never meant to fit inside someone else's expectations. If this
episode resonates with you, make sure you subscribe, follow, and
most importantly, share it with someone who needs to hear
it the most. I'm Ashland Harris. This is wide open,
and we'll see you next week.
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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