July 13, 2026 • 47 mins
Climate change is a fact, not a question. If you’re watching the World Cup this summer, you’ll see players facing record-breaking heat head-on. As a former player, Ashlyn knows how hard heat is on these athletes’ bodies, not to mention the challenges of travel, dehydration, and overheating turf. To get a handle on what exactly the teams are facing this summer, Ashlyn is talking to sport ecologist Madeline Orr and CEO of the Korey Stringer Institute, Dr. Douglas Casa. In this special episode, Dr. Maddy Orr and Dr. Doug Casa discuss the conditions of the World Cup and warn that it is just a preview of how rising temperatures will affect the future of sports.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Today we have an awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Show lined up for you all. Clearly, if you turned
on your TV this week, you've probably already witnessed it.
But Europe is having They're in the middle of another
major heat wave. Wimbledon players are competing in extreme temperatures.
Here in the US, millions of people are under heat advisory,
with temperatures now on the East Coast upwards of one
(00:39):
hundred degrees and it's raising a bigger question, not just
about everyday life, but about sports. As athletes were always
trained to just take uncomfortable conditions. Heat was just a
part of the job, they said. But this feels different.
It's lasting longer, it's getting hot, and it's forcing some
(01:01):
of the biggest sporting events in the world to adapt.
Hydration breaks, air quality concerns, artificial turf recovery scheduling. These
aren't just sports conversations anymore. They're climate conversations. Today I'm
joined by two of the world's leading experts, doctor Matty
Orr and doctor Douglas Cassa, to help us understand what
(01:23):
climate change means for the future. Of athletics from youth
sports all the way to the FIFA Men's World Cup,
because this isn't just about winning games anymore, It's about
protecting the people who play them. Welcome to the show
you too, How are you good?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thanks for having us?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes, I am so delighted to have you both. I
clearly introduced you to the show. But please tell us
what you do, where you both are located, and your
history of climate and sports.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Sure, I'll start.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I am a sportocologist, which means my full time
job is thinking about sport and the environments we play in.
And a lot of it is kind of like you know,
it's intuitive to people, right, people play outside, you take
your kid to the park, you go on your bike ride,
whatever it is. For most people in North America, our
invitation into the outdoors is sport for his collectivitan play
(02:20):
and so for me, I was sitting back ten years
ago thinking this is a good opportunity to talk to
people about that environment, whatever it is, whether it's winter
sport and that's getting harder, or summer sport and we're
talking about heat or water sports. I worked in Rio
at the Olympics and watched athletes get out of the
water with rashes down their legs from contaminated water.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Right, So I'm thinking.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Like, this is such a gimme, so obvious. And here
we are ten years later, and I'm still having these
conversations because it just keeps happening.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So I work at the University of Toronto. I'm based here.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
We're hosting the World Cup right now. We have a
game today as we record this, which is kind of why.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
And yeah, my full time job is researching this.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
So I work with communities impacted by different things and
we figure out how do you adapt that and what
does it mean whether you're a mom trying to take
care of your kid, or a coach trying to take
care of your team, or an athlete trying.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
To perform at the highest level.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And Maddie, what is the temperature today for the game
in Toronto?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So the temperature right now in Toronto we're in a
heat wave.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
We are.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, so the weather today is hot. It's twenty nine
degrees celsius with seventy percent humidity. That's eighty five fahrenheit.
And so that's hot. We don't get that hot in Toronto.
I need to stress that as unusual. When I was
growing up, we were talking about temperatures like eighty was wild,
and now here we are mid eighties with high humidity,
(03:52):
and Doug can tell us all about how bad that
is for us.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So well lucky.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It's one hundred and one today in New Jersey, so yes,
with eighty percent humidity.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
So I yeah, yeah, I'm watching Doug Space, like get
grim at the numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
He's like joeling, He's like, let's go.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I'm ready, Let's watch me work.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
So I'm Doug cast. I've been a professor at the
University Connecticut for the last twenty seven years. I'm CEO
of the Corey Stringer Institute, which is an institute that
focuses on health safety performance issues for athletes, war fighters,
and labors, especially when they have to do intense exercise
in the heat. I myself had an exertional heat stroke
when I was sixteen years old running a ten k
(04:36):
race on the track in nineteen eighty five during a
heat wave in Buffalo. Collapsed on the final lap, got
back up, collapsed again. That was unconscious for a few
hours and was very fortunate the athletic trainer and the
emergency room physician and nurses were able to save my
life and been focused on this for the last forty years.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So we work at the highest level.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
I mean in the labor space where the heat mitigation
provider for Delta Airlines ups and some of America's big
companies for In the military space, we've had eighteen Department
of Defense grants in the last eight years focusing on
things like body cooling, heat aclimatization, wearable technology to help
in the heat hydration space. But in the athletic space,
you know, we do everything related to the prevention, recognition,
(05:15):
and treatment of exertional heat stroke, and so prevention is
probably one of the big things we'll be talking about today.
As an example, we've worked with the twenty fourteen Portugal
national team to get them ready for the Rainforest Games
for the twenty fourteen World Cup. We helped with the
US women's national team before they headed off to Tokyo
in twenty twenty one, where the whole team came to
(05:36):
US for the ten days before leaving for Tokyo to
do heat aclimatization sessions on top of their normal training
session so that they'd be properly prepared for the heat.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So and my.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Wife and I have been traveling around the country the
last couple weeks to go to World Cup games. Been
at World Cup Games the last three days and going
to go to the Philly game on Saturday.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
That'll be brutally hot.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, are going so definitely want to chat about some
of the things that could be maybe done better and
things that not just that it's not just the players,
it's the spectators and the workers and the volunteers that
we really need to think about as well.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Absolutely, And it's such a you know, we were laughing
before we jumped on the podcast because we've all been
at the games and you're seeing fans boo during hydration
breaks and I'm just like, you have no idea the
impact on these players' body. And also they don't understand
(06:36):
the travel like usual World Cups are are within like Germany,
which is like the size of like, let's just Georgia.
I don't know, I don't it's similar, right, yes, And
we're having players fly Mexico. The US is huge in Canada,
(06:59):
and the temperatures are varying all over the place. Some
stadiums are indoor, summer, outdoor, and I just don't think
people understand the gravity of what this is doing to
these players' bodies, and to boo that when it is
science backed and they're talking about, oh, we're ruining the
(07:22):
integrity of the game. At what point are we going
to stop saying that and make sure we're focused on
the health of the players and the spectators and the
people working. And I think that is the question we
should be asking, and we're not even asking that question
because we're just worried about the integrity of the game.
(07:42):
What type of kickback are you guys getting right now?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I'm kind of torn a little bit on it.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
I personally don't think we need the heat hydration breaks
during all the indoor games, you know those three indoor stadiums.
We don't need it there. There's been some really cool
games in Seattle and other locations. I think we should
have the hydration cooling breaks when it's needed. And there's
a few things we have to do a deeper dive.
FIFA's normal threshold is thirty two degrees wet bulb globe temperature,
(08:10):
which is just a fancy way of measuring the environmental conditions.
That should be lowered down to twenty six or twenty
eight thirty two is way too high. Thirty two to
give you an idea. At military bases in America, it's
black flag, meaning that you can't do any training, but
yet allow FIFA allows people to play soccer just with
a three minute break. So the first of all, we
should bring the threshold down to twenty six or twenty
(08:31):
eight when we do need it in the extreme conditions.
I do think the break should be five or six
minutes to allow proper hydration to cooling, but it would
only be needed maybe fifteen, ten or fifteen percent of
the time when we go over those thresholds. But I
know at this particular World Cup they're doing it at
every single game, and I think that's why the way
we have the fans and coaches questioning it, because I
(08:51):
truly don't think you needed it in Dallas when it
you know, the indoor temperature was like sixty nine degrees.
So I personally think should do it when it's needed
and then people would recognize the importance of it. But
that's one of the things to consider. We also have
to talk about scheduling of games. They have games in
Miami at five pm. It's corry two at six pm
when we still have huge radiant heat load at this
(09:14):
time of the year from the sun, so there's a
lot more that can be done. I know there's been
some things done, but I do think that we can
do more to keep everyone safer.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I completely agree, and I you know, as an athlete,
I said this to you before, Doug, about it is
so vital to keep consistency in sport for fairness reasons.
So as much as we would love to only do
hydration breaks in the climates that actually need it, over
(09:44):
you know, when you talk about consistency of the sport,
you can't have breaks in some games and not in others,
because then we have a question of fairness. So I
definitely think if we're going to move forward in the sport,
we really should start having these conversations because, as you
both know, when we were kids, I was born and
raised in Florida. I played four games in a weekend
(10:06):
at one hundred degrees temperature like it was no big deal.
And you know, now it's like, are we asking these questions?
Are we educating these clubs, these colleges, these high schools
where they're having you know, football practice right after school
at two thirty in the afternoon when they're covered in
(10:27):
all types of pads and helmets. And you know, in
Florida growing up, people had heat chokes all the time.
There were people dying all the time. Now it's life
or death conversation. At some point people need to wake
up and be like, it's here. It's not a hypothetical
question anymore about what is climate change? Climate change is here.
(10:48):
I got a text yesterday electricity company and they were like,
if you have a problematic situation where you are out
of ac here are different places you need to seek shelter.
And I'm like, well, I have never ever in my
life had a text like that, So I'm curious, is
(11:08):
it now just becoming like, Hello, we've been telling you
guys this for a really long time, like or has
it been here? And now we're just seeing the brutal
effects it's going to causes, not just in sport, but
in life.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
I think both both, you know, like Doug was saying
that he experienced a heat stroke years ago. This is
something that can happen to our bodies in these conditions
and has been happening to your point about Florida for
a long time, right. I think what's different now is
more places are experiencing those extraordinary conditions. So places like Toronto,
(11:44):
places like New Jersey, Like you know, forty years ago,
you'd have the off day that was really bad, but
most of the summer was kind of fine. We're now
experiencing really, I would almost say, like dangerous conditions for
more of the summer. And generally the way that works
is it it's like you get two or three or
four days of a heat wave, but there's so much
(12:04):
hotter that it just increases the average. So when people say, oh,
it's one or two degrees hotter now than it was
in the past, that's not one or two degrees every day.
That's one or two degrees on average, because a few
days are like ten degrees hotter, right, And that's where
it gets dangerous.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
So people aren't used to it.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And the other thing that happens, and you brought it
up early in the in the puzz you know, people
will say, well, when I was a kid, I toughed
it out, right, that's really dangerous. When we were kids,
is not the same is when our kids are kids now,
Like these are not the same conditions the heat wave
that we experienced. Heat waves are relative to what your
(12:42):
area is normal is. So a heat wave in Florida
and a heat wave in Toronto could be like fifteen
degrees different.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Got to keep that in mind too.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
So we're seeing things in places we haven't seen them before.
Different populations are being exposed, and I think that means
everybody's sense of normal is shifting where we have to
get used to new normals, and that means things like
hydration breaks. It just has to be part of the conversation,
and it is. It's a health and safety thing, but
I'm also going to throw it out there. Sports are
supposed to be fun, yeah, and when you're playing in
(13:14):
bad conditions, it's not fun, let alone competitive. So when
we're talking about integrity of the game, we're talking about
like first and foremost, this is a health and safety issue,
and that's kind of we're going to get into that,
I think more. But there's a fun element here, there's
a competition element here.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That are all part of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And you know, I want my kids to grow up
playing sport and have fun doing it and not be
miserable out there exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And safe. Yeah, the bottom line is safe. Well, Maddie,
in your perspective, what sport currently probably has is the
most vulnerable to climate change right now.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Ooh, So there's a summer answer and a winter answer.
The summer answer is probably either your marathon or your
American football for two reasons.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
It's exposure time.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That's the big one, like how long are you exerting
yourself in what conditions? And the other part is what
are you wearing, like how much can you sweat? So
those are kind of the two big things on the
summer side with regard to heat. The winter side, I mean,
skiing is a whole mess in many parts of the world.
We've lost over one hundred ski areas in the last
fifteen years because of conditions getting harder.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So for those who enjoy that, that's going away. It's
getting hard.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You're going to travel further to get to where you're
going For skiing and pond hockey, I'm Canadian.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I gotta say.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
It like we use You know, Sidney Crosby and Wayne
Gretzky grew up on ponds playing hockey. That's how they
cut their teeth in this. It's how they got good.
It's how you get your minutes practicing. Because it's expensive
to go inside and play at an arena. So if
you can just go outside, lace up and go and play,
that's good. We're losing that right across the board. We've
lost forty days from my dad's generation to mine, and
(14:56):
now my kids are going to have even less. So
this is an ongoing problem. It's a problem for Canadian hockey.
I know the Americans are going to relish that, but
it's you know, it's it's a thing, and it's showing
up in different parts of the world in different ways,
but that's what we're seeing it most.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors, Doug I got, I'm
curious for you, like as an athlete, I kind of
especially an athlete who grew up in Florida. I played
professionally in Orlando during a time where we had TV
rights on Lifetime that were making us play at one
(15:35):
in two o'clock in the afternoon, which was to me
like that you might as well put us in a
torture chamber. But I always my body always fell off,
like in the heat. Long before I guess I had
the words or understanding of how to explain why and
I'm curious, like what actually is going on with our
(15:55):
body in these extreme heat Like how is it affecting performance?
How is it affecting the players?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
Sure, so two biggest things that we're looking at is
the amount of hyperthermia, which is how high your body
temperature is getting. In the amount of dehydration, so the
amount of fluid that we're losing. So those independently dramatically
hinder performance, but then when you have those two together,
it's even exponentially worse. So all of the heat mitigation
(16:22):
strategies that we have in place are trying to combat
those two items to one help with performance, but also
to help with safety. So things that you see compromised
initially would be like, for instance, you'll cover less distance,
so people will run less during a game. They'll protect
themselves and run more when necessary. Next you'll run, you'll
have less sprints, the sprints will be less fast, You'll
(16:44):
have way more cognitive errors, so people will make mistakes
thinking in terms of the right thing to do, but
they'll also have motor skill mistakes in terms of you
know whatever, dribbling like you know, not catching the balls effectively, whatever,
things like that. So all those are affected by hyperthermia
and dehydration. And so when you look at the biggest
mitigation strategies, like body cooling strategies, how aggressively can you
(17:04):
cool at halftime. I've been at Youth World Cups. We
put kids and we put people in cold water immersion
tubs at halftime, because at halftime of soccer games, people
would be one hundred and four degree body temperature from
running around in forty five degrees and one hundred and
ten degree temperature. So if you aggressively cool for ten
or eleven minutes, you can get your temp down three
degrees instead of just sitting there and go down one degree.
(17:26):
So that's an example of body cooling. Another thing would
be heat acclimatization is getting your body ready to the
heat a few weeks beforehand so that you can better
deal with it. Another thing would be hydration. Hydration is
closely tied to your body temperature during intense exercise in
the heat, So hydrating the night before, the morning of,
after the warm up, during halftime, during the breaks. There's
(17:46):
a lot of things that can be done, but we
talked about before. I actually think there's a massive discrepancy
in this world Cup. If you play in an air
conditioning game and then five days later you have a
knockout stage game in the heat, you have a massive
advantage team that played in the heat and then has
to go to the heat. So that's a gross inconsistency
right now in terms of the level. I actually thinking
(18:07):
that literally as I'm watching these games of who what
did they do most recently? And I want to just
follo up to one thing Maddie was talking about before.
If I could go back in time one hundred and
twenty five years, I would make American football a spring
sport and not a fall sport, because I'd want the
pickup in March instead of in August.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Almost all of heat stroke deaths.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
In American American football in high school and college, they
happened in the first three or four days of practice
because we're putting full gear on people who are two
hundred and fifty three hundred pounds. The bigger people heat
up faster and cool down slower. Almost every death in
heatstroke in American high school has been linemen, and we're
having him do all this hard exercise and the hottest
time of the year and the most humid, So why
(18:47):
not do this in March and let baseball be a
fall sport instead. So I think thirty forty years from now,
when we just can't overcome the climate change anymore, I
think you'll see high school football become a spring sport instead.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Of a full Yeah, And I'll follow up here as
someone who lived the experience of sports in Florida. It's
a culture of toughness. It's a part of it, and
I think it's a part of the problem because we
are taught to push through heat and it's celebrated when
the toughest are out there and they're not complaining and
(19:21):
they're getting on the line, they're doing the work. But
at what point do we just start educating people and
what's safe, like guardrails are we actually implementing at this point?
Because science is science is science is science, and the
things are telling us that these are these are harming
and hurting us as children, but adults who are performing
(19:43):
and playing in these in these climate crisis moments as well.
So I'm curious what you guys think. What are we
doing right now to protect this young generation? How how
are we protecting these one percent athletes? Has it been hard?
War is federations and entities like FIFA actually listening to
(20:05):
what you guys have to say.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
We need American football coaches at the high school level
to do a better job. Yes, And the reason is
is if all the kids who died since nineteen ninety
five at the high school level and football from heat stroke,
they've all been alignment offensive and defensive. Wow, because they
heat up faster and they cool down slower. So why
are we forcing them to do the same conditioning sessions
as the other players. And also the stress of alignment
(20:29):
is very different than what a receiver does. They should
not be doing the same conditioning sessions. Also during the practices,
they need longer breaks because they need more time to
cool down. So we need to treat them differently, even
though they're on the same team. Coaches want everyone doing
the same thing to unify people together, but we need
to treat them differently and use the science we have
and the sports medicine knowledge we have to better protect
(20:50):
these linemen.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So that would be my biggest recommendation by far.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
The biggest group of heat stroke deaths in America in
the sports setting is American football players. That we have
specific knowledge on how to prevent the heat drove from happening,
and then also on the flip side, when a heat
stroke does happen, survivability is one hundred percent with cold
water immersion, and yet we still have people not being
aggressively cooled on site. And thankfully, over twenty high school
(21:15):
state associations now require cold water immertion like Florida does,
because when you were in high school in Florida, they
led the country for heatstroke deaths the state of Florida.
But now thankfully that they require as a state law
cold water immersion. Georgia requires that, Louisiana requires it. So
we need other people to be proactive, and then you
got to actually do it when it happens. Just because
(21:36):
you have the requirement doesn't mean people are implementing it.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Well, I'll go one step further and ask you this.
Do you think hydration breaks are even enough? Are they
simply just like treating the symptom instead of dressing the
bigger problem we're happying on.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
The extreme temperature ones.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
I do think it should be five or six minutes
to have a little more meaningful, but it's the halftime.
We need to make sure at halftime that they aggress
cooling is available for all teams now at the World
Cup level, it is, but I'm going to tell you
I work with you seventeen U twenty Youth World Cups
and that locker rooms aren't even air conditioned at these stadiums,
and they did not allow Cooling America to do certain
(22:13):
cooling if other countries didn't have access to it. So
FIFA should make sure the optimal cooling is available for
all teams. I mean, I know this high profile World
Cup we're all watching, but remember from most FIFA events,
it's much.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Much worse than the situation we have now because.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
They wait to the thirty two degree web Bove globe temperature,
that locker rooms are not air conditioning, they don't have
the aggressive cooling available. So I think we need to
use the resources to protect all levels and not just
this high profile situation right now.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I was just said, there's the culture element here too,
right if you're a teenage boy. If I'm a teenage
boy and I'm playing out a football teamer, I'm playing
on a soccer team and it's brutal conditions, but I'm
looking around at my team and I'm seeing them be fine.
I might not tell my coach I feel uncomfortable right now.
I actually probably wouldn't, right because I'm thinking right, because
(23:02):
I'm thinking like I played rugby, Like I definitely am
not telling them anything, and obviously, like that mentality needs
to change.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We need our coaches to understand.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
That athletes are able to communicate what's going on with
them is a strength. We need coaches to protect playing opportunities,
especially like it needs to be okay to say, hey, wait,
like something's up with me, get your water break, get
your cooling or whatever it is that you need.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
And this applies to concussions, it applies to all injuries.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Like I would say, this is a bigger thing than
just heat. Obviously heat is a big one right now,
but it applies elsewhere. We need coaches to be able
to receive that information. We need parents to be able
to advocate for their kids. We need kids to know, like, hey,
my buddy doesn't look okay, and to be able to
say that and not be like really messing with their
playing chances at their next game by saying so. So
(23:54):
I think you know, there's a culture shift that has
to happen here, and I think everyone has a role
in that parents have a role, kids have a role,
teachers how to rule everybody, because if we don't start
talking about it, like most of the earliest signs and
symptoms of something like heat stroke can be curved right
to Doug's case, like, we don't have to get to
the point of a heat stroke.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
It doesn't have to It never has to get there.
But people need to communicate.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Otherwise they're not going to have access to water, They're
not going to have access to cooling opportunities or a
break or some shade, even though that could, you know,
save their life potentially.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I want to hit this as well, because we can.
It's a really important statistic that recently just came out.
A recent sort of survey found that sixty six percent
of Americans degree public officials haven't done enough to prepare
for extreme weather, and sixty five percent say silence around
climate change puts all of our lives at risk. Right,
(24:48):
how do you feel, Like? What is your thought when
you hear that? And now we're having real numbers roll
out because we're seeing the implications climate change is having
on all of us as a whole.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Yeah, you know, there's this thing called like we talk
about the cycles of silence, right. And it happens when
you sit down at your Thanksgiving dinner with your family
and I'm sitting here thinking, my uncle definitely doesn't want
to hear about climate change, so I'm not going to
bring it up. And he's sitting there thinking, well, Maddie
talks about this all day. She definitely doesn't want to
talk about her work right now, so I'm not going
to bring it up. And then my mom is like,
I don't want a messy dinner, so nobody talk about
(25:25):
anything controversial, right, And so everyone's sitting there willing to
probably have a conversation in good faith, right and talk
about whatever it is that's going on in this case
climate change, and we should talk about it. And it
is hard, but it's hitting people in their day to days.
It's impacting your walk with your dog in the morning.
It's impacting how you get around, it's impacting your kids,
(25:46):
it's impacting our food supply.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Like it's a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
It can feel overwhelming, it can feel political. I think
we got to push through that and talk about how
it's impacting our day to day lives. It doesn't have
to be a political conversation can be a personal one,
and I think that that's meaningful in a very similar way.
So yeah, I think we got to you get past
the cycles of silence by being the person to bring
(26:10):
it up in brotish topic that can feel awkward. I
know it can. I'm the person who does it all
the time. So like I am that awkward girl that
will come to a sport event and talk about climate change.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Doesn't make me that popular sometimes.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I love it, but people come around, and you know what,
they come around because the conversation is not about feeding
people their vegetables.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
It's about let's.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Keep our future safe and fun and something that like
we can engage with and like, find me one parent
in America who doesn't want that for their kid.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And I'll wait, they don't exist.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We can have a conversation about this, So you just
got to be the person to bring it up. And
it can be about how hot it is today, it
can be about the weather.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That is a climate conversation that's worth having.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Well, there's another thing that I want to bring up
that you know, as someone who you know, the World
Cup is so it's the biggest world events. Let's just
say that in sports. And in twenty fifteen I played,
like you know, we played in the World Cup in Canada.
It was all on turf. It was a nightmare. And
(27:15):
I think that is the topic of conversation and research
we're not hearing enough about in my opinion, And I
don't know how much you both have dived into this,
but for context, when I said, you know, the unfortunate
part about sports is we are at the hands of
(27:38):
the TV deals the time slots. They need to put
us in time slots where they see fit, they see openings,
they see you know, where the numbers can actually move
at their highest But what my biggest issue and someone
who played in a game in Kansas City on turf
(27:58):
when it was one hundred degrees, which means the turf
was clocking at one hundred and seventeen degrees. We had
buckets of water on the sidelines because the pebbles of
the turf were burning our feet so bad. People had
to run off. This is professional sports, women's professional sports
(28:18):
at the highest level, running off of this turf field
to slam our feet into water to make sure we
don't burn the bottom of our feet. Guess what was happening.
It was melting the bottom soles of our boots off.
And to me, I'm like, why are we not talking
about it as a goalkeeper now? At you know, for
(28:40):
training for a World Cup and you know, we had
to train all on turf and I'm having to wear
in one hundred Derigge heat shirts pants so the rubber
pellets didn't burn into my skin because that's how hot
they were. And I'm curious of what you both think
(29:00):
about this because artificial turf now is becoming a very
big thing that's going everywhere because it's easy to maintain, right,
you don't have to do much, doesn't require a bunch
of water, it doesn't you just got to brush it.
But we're not talking about how it's affecting the players.
And I'm curious, like, what with the growing public concern
(29:22):
realm the chemicals being used to lay some of these
turf pellets, what do we even know what the health
risk is.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
We have a pretty good idea of what the health
risks are. There's there's different elements.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
So there's a conversation about falling on it and an
injury rate falling on it. They're very it's very comparable
to natural turf. It used to be that artificial turf
was much worse for injury rates. They've gotten a lot
better on that, so that that one's kind of more
comparable Now.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
It depends on how old your turf is.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I will say that if you're like at a high
school who hasn't had it replaced in years and.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Years, like you might not be back.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, turf burn is worse obviously anyone who has fallen
on it and knows.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
That it will hold.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So this is a piece right Like this sportocologist hat
in me is saying, always match the local conditions. So
turf isn't going to do that. Turf is just going
to be the same wherever you put it down, and
there's different kinds of turf. But natural grass that's meant
to be in that environment is going to be better
almost every time from a health standpoint and from a
(30:27):
maintenance standpoint compared to artificial turf and.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Imported grasses.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Right like that perfect green Augusta vibe like with the
perfect grass that people are going for.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
That's also not.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Great for a bunch of reasons because it just requires
so much maintenance to keep it that way in most environments,
unless like you are in a place like Georgia, where
that is what's normal. So turf is a messy one
in some countries. So like in Norway, they put it
in everywhere across the whole country, right fifteen years ago.
The country has now walked it back. The government has
said you need to get rid of this on every
(31:04):
single field everywhere, and I think it's by next year.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Like twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So they're walking it back for the health reasons but
also for the environmental reasons. And I think that this
is a conversation that we're not having enough in North America.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
So I'm glad you brought it up.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
The piece that I'm less familiar with, but I think
Doug is going to jump in on here is how
it holds and retains heat, and that's a whole other
piece of this puzzle.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Yeah, there's a few things to think about here. I
am actually a fan of turf fields sometimes only because
in the northern part of America you can be active
outside for much more of the year, right, you know,
during the winchtime. Normally you can't get into grass fields
till April because it's so wet and you destroy the fields.
So if it's a lot more months that people can
be active, I'm a huge fan of that. And for
(31:50):
some of the poorer school districts a turf, if that
means they can have a field versus other places, that
might mean more access to activity, which I'm also a
fan of. To support what you're both saying, you have
to make sure you're measuring the environmental conditions locally, and
we can't use weather apps. We can't be using an
app from a weather station. And the turf is way
way hotter, like you're saying. So when we're making decisions
(32:13):
for football practices and work to rest ratios and how
to have breaks, we need to measure those conditions at
the field because it's going to be way hotter on
a turfield and we need to make more precautions. And
maybe the first week of practice, maybe we can get
on a grass field for practicing and not use that turfield,
and maybe don't have it between one and five o'clock
in the afternoon when that's obviously most of that heat
(32:34):
is being retained. So but to get back to twenty
the other points, I went to some games in Autawa
and Montreal back in the twenty fifteen World Cup, and
I was shocked that they require for the Men's World
Cup games to be on natural grass, right, and even
the three indoor stadiums in Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta where
I was the last three days, they figured out a
way to get grass indoors for this World Cup and
(32:56):
they couldn't allow you guys to have grass fields for
the World Cup into the fifteen But that's ludicrous, right,
I mean, that's just a failure of this organization not
protecting the athletes in this particular situation. If there's an
organization in the world that could mandate a grass field
for the Women's World Cup, it's FIFA, right, Yes, it's
not like some small, like tiny sports organization. So big
(33:17):
groups like that they should make sure that they're doing
those things. Like I'll give the International Olympic Committee credit
for the Tokyo Olympics. They had a work group for
the three years before that I participated in, and they
let us have big control over when the events were
taking place, like we get to help decide when each
event should be, the time of the day, and different
precautions that could be They let us move the marathon
(33:38):
to six hours north in Sapporo because it's a much
cooler than Tokyo on average. So I do think you
can be more proactive. But I agree with you. I
was shocked in twenty fifteen. I mean, why would you
ever an organization like FIFA, we're going to just do grass.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
I mean, they just.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yes, stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment.
After this brief message from our sponsors, I want to
go dug a step further. You know, heat now is
not the only environmental change or issue I guess we're having.
I think air quality is becoming a major issue as well.
(34:17):
You know, I played professionally clearly, and we had a
game in Seattle when there was a lot of wildfires
and we were training and practicing and it was like
raining ash and the inside of our noses it was
black and you could feel it in your chest as
you're breathing hard. Nothing, nothing happened. We still went through
(34:41):
with the game. It seemed like it wasn't even an
issue to anyone else. And I'm curious now that we're
having really these issues going on. You know, you see
the fires that impacted California, you see it all over
the place. It's happening more frequently in Florida as well.
(35:01):
I'm curious, how does poor quality affect decision making for
these players, endurance, recovery, even the fans who are sitting
in it watching the sporting events. Do we have any
information on air quality how it's impacting the athletes.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Now this is in Mattie's books, so she's going to
answer for you love it.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
So air quality is an interesting one, right, I think
I want to just make excuse me, I want to
make the case that wildfire, smoke, and ozone are very
different things. They hit the body in different ways and
we process them differently. So I'm going to say that
we have to think of it as like a potion,
like our cocktail, right, and there's different ingredients, different sources
(35:47):
of air pollutants. Our bodies are pretty effective at managing this,
I will say that. So on the whole, in a
short term exposure, you're not going to see a whole
lot happen, even if you're running and taking in tons
more air because you're breathing through your mouth, which means
you're not using your nose.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
That's your best defense mechanism, by the way.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Is your nose, and when you're running and you're huffing
and puffing through your mouth, you're taking in more air
volume and you're taking it.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Straight down to your lungs.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
That set you would have to be out for a
while to really get enough for there to be significant
impacts right away. Soccer might get you there. A full
game of soccer, especially if you have a warm up beforehand,
you might get there towards the end. A football game
that goes on for three hours, you might get there
right So, but like your twenty minute run probably okay,
And I would still probably say unless it's like really
(36:38):
above your kind of two hundred and fifty three hundred
on the AQI scale, which you can check on your
weather app, I'd still say, like you're, you know, thirty
minute five k is probably fine.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Go do it just to be active.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Now, the big question is how much exposure do you
have over time? If you are living in a place
where you're working outside all day and you don't have
great air filtration in the building you're working in or
at home, your exposure over time, that's where we're going
to start to see some major issues. And that's where
it's really going to start to impact absolutely your performance,
but also your ability to think straight. Definitely your ability
(37:14):
to sleep. That's the one that people forget about with
heat and air pollution is sleep. There's big impacts there
and we can't let that go because you're as an athlete,
you know, like that's critical.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You can't mess that one up.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
So it's exposure time that's the big question. And then
like how bad is the your pollution if you're in
a fire zone, if you're in British Columbia, in Canada,
if you're in Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, like any of those
western states that see a lot of smoke.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
You want to reduce your overall exposure time.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, over the season, that's the big thing, right, And
then you know what is it going to do? Itchy eyes?
You're going to notice that real quick. You're going to
notice you feel it in your lungs a little bit.
What's happening there is you're getting pollutant content stuck in
your lungs into your bloodstream. It takes a lot for
it to have a big impact, but you'll start to
feel more tired. That'll happen pretty quick, and you're going
(38:06):
to start to feel a bit brain foggy. So the
first things you'll notice is the smell and your eyes
a lich and then when you start to feel any
of those other things, just get inside, take a break.
And I will say, masks work, Yes, they do.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
They work. You know, is it fun to run with
a mask? No, but it works. It will reduce it
meaningfully reduce the amount of pollutant content you get.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
So I will say, for those who are really desperate
to get out in hard conditions, put.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
On a mask.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
It will do something. It's not going to fix everything,
but it'll help a bit. Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, and I do think Maddie like sports have always
like adapted. I think that's something we do really well.
We're having new equipment that's making us stronger, faster, more educated,
we have better ideas of nutrition, how it impacts us.
You're talking about sleep with better recovery. Do you think
the next big topic evolution of sports is climate? Do
(39:02):
you think this is the big buzz that's coming next?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I think it might be the through line.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I don't know that it's going to be labeled as
like we're adapting to climate, although like that would make
me very happy.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
If we would talk about it that way.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I don't think I'll get my way on that one.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, but I think it's the through line.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Right. We talk about scheduling when the event d like
Katar for the Men's World Cup last time was in
the fall, because yeah, right, are we putting people in
kutar in this summer? So, but that precedent's been set,
like Tokyo in twenty one was hosted in the summer.
Tokyo in nineteen sixty four was in the fall because
someone had the good wisdom.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
To say, this is not okay, right, we can do
these things. We can make these changes. The proof is there.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
So it might look like scheduling changes, and part of
the reason will be climate change and weather. It might
be hydration breaks and structural changes to how the game
is played, and the reason will be climate change. But
it will look like something else on the surface. They
might not, but part of the justification behind the scenes,
to Doug's point about the IOC and the discussions happening.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
There is climate change, So it might. I would.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I think it's going to be part of the through line.
Like when we talk about new venues going up. Part
of the reason that some places are getting new venues,
like places like Dallas and Houston are both talking about
new venues for baseball way faster than they should in
terms of what the building can handle, but like they
just can't be outside.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
It's just a non starter.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
So so there go. And that's a climate conversation. It's
not build is that, But that's what it is. So
I think it'll be the through line. I just don't
think we're going to call it that.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
That's that's yeah, that's smart, and that totally makes sense.
And I just hope people start to get out of
feeling that this conversation is a political conversation and it's
like a safety it's a safety converse. It's a health conversation,
and it's important. I think we've politicized it so much
that people are tuning it out, and it's time for
(41:01):
people to start waking up because people are being impacted,
like in a real way, in a life or death way.
Like it has to be the forefront front right now
and topic of conversation. I'm curious for both of you,
what do you think the biggest misconception about heat and
climate change that's going on in sport that's frustrating you
(41:22):
the most.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
I think we have to also make sure we protect
kind of the marginalized people and not just worry about
these high profile events like the FIFA World Cup.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
When we were building preparing.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
For the Qatar World Cup, over six thousand people died
building the stadiums because of issues with the heat. Okay,
and FIFA and the organizing committee could have easily set
up precautions for these workers ahead of time. Now, they
did eventually build an eight hundred million dollar facility to
house all of these workers appropriately and air conditioning, have
potable water showers, dining, but that wasn't done proactively when
(41:56):
we knew there was going to be great risk. And also,
like a lot of our workers, I've seen the dark
side of this. I've been an expert witness on eighty
five cases of heat stroke deaths. Okay, So people die,
workers and athletes die because either coaches or their supervisors
did not do super simple things that we have all
of this knowledge right now. It was nothing that was
(42:17):
not available to them. They just didn't implement existing knowledge
related to prevention and treatment. So we were focused kind
of on this Men's World Cup, but it's the people
kind of behind the scenes, the lower levels of sports
the workers who are doing these ten or twelve hour
days at construction sites or oil and gas facilities or
building these stadiums to support the World Cup, that we
(42:38):
need to think about how we can protect those people,
but protect them proactively. When we give the Olympics and
a FIFA give sites to them, we need to say, Okay,
these are the precautions that are going to be in
place to protect the workers in the ten year build
up before we do the high profile event.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Brilliant and I do now remember the harsh and extreme
conditions that were going on. Right, We're not protecting people.
And you know, as someone who constantly has high level
athletes come to you to train to prepare, not always
not everyone gets access to that, right Doug. So I'm
(43:14):
curious if athletes or moms or dads are listening right now,
what's one thing that you think everyone can take away
to better prepare for competing in this new extreme heat.
Speaker 5 (43:29):
The biggest thing I would tell parents if there are
kids are like a high school football player, is do
not assume that they're being protected at that school. Make
sure the school has an athletic trainer. A third of
high schools in America don't have athletic trainers, so you
have a medical person there. Make sure that first, make
sure that they're using proper precautions. Make sure they're following
the State High School Athletic Association policies for measuring the
(43:51):
environmental conditions breaks hydration, cold water immersion, heat aclimatization. Be
aware of this and actually ask questions. Do not assume
that the coaches are doing the right things to protect
their child.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, the only thing I would add is like make
sure you talk to your kid, like, hey, when when
you feel too hot, Like it can be that simple, right,
Sometimes kids and especially little kids don't have the language
to tell us, So like, I, you know, I've been
working with my daughter's daycare.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I'm like, here's what you might see.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Little little ones right who like don't they can't tell
you I'm overheating because they don't have that language. But
a fifteen year old also might not actually tell you that.
So you got to build in that trust, and you
got to have those conversations real early. And it can't
just be something that like happens on the day that's
really really really hot. It's got to be kind of
an all summer, all spring like, hey, don't forget, like
(44:45):
you know, put on your sunscreen, wear a hat, and
tell someone if something's not okay.
Speaker 5 (44:50):
Yeah, ash Lynn, I'll tell you. I was just working
on an elite college football program and I was telling
the players. I said, you're going to have over a
thousand practices during your football career. Here on two or
three of those days, something's going to be off, like
you might have a fever that day, you're sick, you're
I just had a recent stomach distress, and you're more
dehydrated than normal. On those two or three days, tell
(45:11):
your athletic trainer, don't be a hero on those days.
That's when you're going to die from the huge stroke.
On the other nine hundred and ninety eight days, go
for it, go all out, give everything you have. But
some days you might be weak and just feel comfortable
saying something to someone. You just you maybe have a
one hundred and three degree fever that day because you
have the flu. Right, so let's be smart on that day.
(45:33):
Just give the people a little bit of power to
control their own destiny.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
That's so great, Doug, and I'm I'm so grateful you
both have literally dedicated your lives and career to studying
this because I do think it's a conversation we need
to have. We need to keep having this conversation. And
one thing I keep coming back to is athletes have
always adapted, and that's what we do. We train harder,
(45:59):
we recover, we're smarter, we push ourselves. But maybe the
bigger question isn't whether athletes can adapt, but maybe it's
worth if the sports themselves are actually willing to and
protecting us and the guardrails that come with it, because
climate change isn't a future conversation anymore. It's already changing
how we train, how we compete, and what safety looks like.
(46:23):
So a huge thank you to both of you. I
am so grateful for you both coming on here and
helping us unpack what's going on and just to separate
the headlines from the science and reminding us that protecting
athletes isn't about making them resilient, It's about making the
environment they compete and smarter and safer. So thank you
(46:44):
all for listening, thank you for being here on another
episode of Wide Open. And I hope this conversation changed
the way you look at the World Cup, but also
the way you see what climate looks like right now,
and how it's affecting us in real time. Thank you
all for being here, and we'll see you next week
on another episode of Wide Open
Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Today we have an awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Show lined up for you all. Clearly, if you turned
on your TV this week, you've probably already witnessed it.
But Europe is having They're in the middle of another
major heat wave. Wimbledon players are competing in extreme temperatures.
Here in the US, millions of people are under heat advisory,
with temperatures now on the East Coast upwards of one
(00:39):
hundred degrees and it's raising a bigger question, not just
about everyday life, but about sports. As athletes were always
trained to just take uncomfortable conditions. Heat was just a
part of the job, they said. But this feels different.
It's lasting longer, it's getting hot, and it's forcing some
(01:01):
of the biggest sporting events in the world to adapt.
Hydration breaks, air quality concerns, artificial turf recovery scheduling. These
aren't just sports conversations anymore. They're climate conversations. Today I'm
joined by two of the world's leading experts, doctor Matty
Orr and doctor Douglas Cassa, to help us understand what
(01:23):
climate change means for the future. Of athletics from youth
sports all the way to the FIFA Men's World Cup,
because this isn't just about winning games anymore, It's about
protecting the people who play them. Welcome to the show
you too, How are you good?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thanks for having us?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yes, I am so delighted to have you both. I
clearly introduced you to the show. But please tell us
what you do, where you both are located, and your
history of climate and sports.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Sure, I'll start.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I am a sportocologist, which means my full time
job is thinking about sport and the environments we play in.
And a lot of it is kind of like you know,
it's intuitive to people, right, people play outside, you take
your kid to the park, you go on your bike ride,
whatever it is. For most people in North America, our
invitation into the outdoors is sport for his collectivitan play
(02:20):
and so for me, I was sitting back ten years
ago thinking this is a good opportunity to talk to
people about that environment, whatever it is, whether it's winter
sport and that's getting harder, or summer sport and we're
talking about heat or water sports. I worked in Rio
at the Olympics and watched athletes get out of the
water with rashes down their legs from contaminated water.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Right, So I'm thinking.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Like, this is such a gimme, so obvious. And here
we are ten years later, and I'm still having these
conversations because it just keeps happening.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So I work at the University of Toronto. I'm based here.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
We're hosting the World Cup right now. We have a
game today as we record this, which is kind of why.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
And yeah, my full time job is researching this.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
So I work with communities impacted by different things and
we figure out how do you adapt that and what
does it mean whether you're a mom trying to take
care of your kid, or a coach trying to take
care of your team, or an athlete trying.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
To perform at the highest level.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And Maddie, what is the temperature today for the game
in Toronto?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So the temperature right now in Toronto we're in a
heat wave.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
We are.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, so the weather today is hot. It's twenty nine
degrees celsius with seventy percent humidity. That's eighty five fahrenheit.
And so that's hot. We don't get that hot in Toronto.
I need to stress that as unusual. When I was
growing up, we were talking about temperatures like eighty was wild,
and now here we are mid eighties with high humidity,
(03:52):
and Doug can tell us all about how bad that
is for us.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So well lucky.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It's one hundred and one today in New Jersey, so yes,
with eighty percent humidity.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
So I yeah, yeah, I'm watching Doug Space, like get
grim at the numbers.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
He's like joeling, He's like, let's go.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I'm ready, Let's watch me work.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
So I'm Doug cast. I've been a professor at the
University Connecticut for the last twenty seven years. I'm CEO
of the Corey Stringer Institute, which is an institute that
focuses on health safety performance issues for athletes, war fighters,
and labors, especially when they have to do intense exercise
in the heat. I myself had an exertional heat stroke
when I was sixteen years old running a ten k
(04:36):
race on the track in nineteen eighty five during a
heat wave in Buffalo. Collapsed on the final lap, got
back up, collapsed again. That was unconscious for a few
hours and was very fortunate the athletic trainer and the
emergency room physician and nurses were able to save my
life and been focused on this for the last forty years.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
So we work at the highest level.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
I mean in the labor space where the heat mitigation
provider for Delta Airlines ups and some of America's big
companies for In the military space, we've had eighteen Department
of Defense grants in the last eight years focusing on
things like body cooling, heat aclimatization, wearable technology to help
in the heat hydration space. But in the athletic space,
you know, we do everything related to the prevention, recognition,
(05:15):
and treatment of exertional heat stroke, and so prevention is
probably one of the big things we'll be talking about today.
As an example, we've worked with the twenty fourteen Portugal
national team to get them ready for the Rainforest Games
for the twenty fourteen World Cup. We helped with the
US women's national team before they headed off to Tokyo
in twenty twenty one, where the whole team came to
(05:36):
US for the ten days before leaving for Tokyo to
do heat aclimatization sessions on top of their normal training
session so that they'd be properly prepared for the heat.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So and my.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Wife and I have been traveling around the country the
last couple weeks to go to World Cup games. Been
at World Cup Games the last three days and going
to go to the Philly game on Saturday.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
That'll be brutally hot.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, are going so definitely want to chat about some
of the things that could be maybe done better and
things that not just that it's not just the players,
it's the spectators and the workers and the volunteers that
we really need to think about as well.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Absolutely, And it's such a you know, we were laughing
before we jumped on the podcast because we've all been
at the games and you're seeing fans boo during hydration
breaks and I'm just like, you have no idea the
impact on these players' body. And also they don't understand
(06:36):
the travel like usual World Cups are are within like Germany,
which is like the size of like, let's just Georgia.
I don't know, I don't it's similar, right, yes, And
we're having players fly Mexico. The US is huge in Canada,
(06:59):
and the temperatures are varying all over the place. Some
stadiums are indoor, summer, outdoor, and I just don't think
people understand the gravity of what this is doing to
these players' bodies, and to boo that when it is
science backed and they're talking about, oh, we're ruining the
(07:22):
integrity of the game. At what point are we going
to stop saying that and make sure we're focused on
the health of the players and the spectators and the
people working. And I think that is the question we
should be asking, and we're not even asking that question
because we're just worried about the integrity of the game.
(07:42):
What type of kickback are you guys getting right now?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
I'm kind of torn a little bit on it.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
I personally don't think we need the heat hydration breaks
during all the indoor games, you know those three indoor stadiums.
We don't need it there. There's been some really cool
games in Seattle and other locations. I think we should
have the hydration cooling breaks when it's needed. And there's
a few things we have to do a deeper dive.
FIFA's normal threshold is thirty two degrees wet bulb globe temperature,
(08:10):
which is just a fancy way of measuring the environmental conditions.
That should be lowered down to twenty six or twenty
eight thirty two is way too high. Thirty two to
give you an idea. At military bases in America, it's
black flag, meaning that you can't do any training, but
yet allow FIFA allows people to play soccer just with
a three minute break. So the first of all, we
should bring the threshold down to twenty six or twenty
(08:31):
eight when we do need it in the extreme conditions.
I do think the break should be five or six
minutes to allow proper hydration to cooling, but it would
only be needed maybe fifteen, ten or fifteen percent of
the time when we go over those thresholds. But I
know at this particular World Cup they're doing it at
every single game, and I think that's why the way
we have the fans and coaches questioning it, because I
(08:51):
truly don't think you needed it in Dallas when it
you know, the indoor temperature was like sixty nine degrees.
So I personally think should do it when it's needed
and then people would recognize the importance of it. But
that's one of the things to consider. We also have
to talk about scheduling of games. They have games in
Miami at five pm. It's corry two at six pm
when we still have huge radiant heat load at this
(09:14):
time of the year from the sun, so there's a
lot more that can be done. I know there's been
some things done, but I do think that we can
do more to keep everyone safer.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I completely agree, and I you know, as an athlete,
I said this to you before, Doug, about it is
so vital to keep consistency in sport for fairness reasons.
So as much as we would love to only do
hydration breaks in the climates that actually need it, over
(09:44):
you know, when you talk about consistency of the sport,
you can't have breaks in some games and not in others,
because then we have a question of fairness. So I
definitely think if we're going to move forward in the sport,
we really should start having these conversations because, as you
both know, when we were kids, I was born and
raised in Florida. I played four games in a weekend
(10:06):
at one hundred degrees temperature like it was no big deal.
And you know, now it's like, are we asking these questions?
Are we educating these clubs, these colleges, these high schools
where they're having you know, football practice right after school
at two thirty in the afternoon when they're covered in
(10:27):
all types of pads and helmets. And you know, in
Florida growing up, people had heat chokes all the time.
There were people dying all the time. Now it's life
or death conversation. At some point people need to wake
up and be like, it's here. It's not a hypothetical
question anymore about what is climate change? Climate change is here.
(10:48):
I got a text yesterday electricity company and they were like,
if you have a problematic situation where you are out
of ac here are different places you need to seek shelter.
And I'm like, well, I have never ever in my
life had a text like that, So I'm curious, is
(11:08):
it now just becoming like, Hello, we've been telling you
guys this for a really long time, like or has
it been here? And now we're just seeing the brutal
effects it's going to causes, not just in sport, but
in life.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
I think both both, you know, like Doug was saying
that he experienced a heat stroke years ago. This is
something that can happen to our bodies in these conditions
and has been happening to your point about Florida for
a long time, right. I think what's different now is
more places are experiencing those extraordinary conditions. So places like Toronto,
(11:44):
places like New Jersey, Like you know, forty years ago,
you'd have the off day that was really bad, but
most of the summer was kind of fine. We're now
experiencing really, I would almost say, like dangerous conditions for
more of the summer. And generally the way that works
is it it's like you get two or three or
four days of a heat wave, but there's so much
(12:04):
hotter that it just increases the average. So when people say, oh,
it's one or two degrees hotter now than it was
in the past, that's not one or two degrees every day.
That's one or two degrees on average, because a few
days are like ten degrees hotter, right, And that's where
it gets dangerous.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
So people aren't used to it.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And the other thing that happens, and you brought it
up early in the in the puzz you know, people
will say, well, when I was a kid, I toughed
it out, right, that's really dangerous. When we were kids,
is not the same is when our kids are kids now,
Like these are not the same conditions the heat wave
that we experienced. Heat waves are relative to what your
(12:42):
area is normal is. So a heat wave in Florida
and a heat wave in Toronto could be like fifteen
degrees different.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Got to keep that in mind too.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
So we're seeing things in places we haven't seen them before.
Different populations are being exposed, and I think that means
everybody's sense of normal is shifting where we have to
get used to new normals, and that means things like
hydration breaks. It just has to be part of the conversation,
and it is. It's a health and safety thing, but
I'm also going to throw it out there. Sports are
supposed to be fun, yeah, and when you're playing in
(13:14):
bad conditions, it's not fun, let alone competitive. So when
we're talking about integrity of the game, we're talking about
like first and foremost, this is a health and safety issue,
and that's kind of we're going to get into that,
I think more. But there's a fun element here, there's
a competition element here.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That are all part of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And you know, I want my kids to grow up
playing sport and have fun doing it and not be
miserable out there exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And safe. Yeah, the bottom line is safe. Well, Maddie,
in your perspective, what sport currently probably has is the
most vulnerable to climate change right now.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Ooh, So there's a summer answer and a winter answer.
The summer answer is probably either your marathon or your
American football for two reasons.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
It's exposure time.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
That's the big one, like how long are you exerting
yourself in what conditions? And the other part is what
are you wearing, like how much can you sweat? So
those are kind of the two big things on the
summer side with regard to heat. The winter side, I mean,
skiing is a whole mess in many parts of the world.
We've lost over one hundred ski areas in the last
fifteen years because of conditions getting harder.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So for those who enjoy that, that's going away. It's
getting hard.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You're going to travel further to get to where you're
going For skiing and pond hockey, I'm Canadian.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I gotta say.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
It like we use You know, Sidney Crosby and Wayne
Gretzky grew up on ponds playing hockey. That's how they
cut their teeth in this. It's how they got good.
It's how you get your minutes practicing. Because it's expensive
to go inside and play at an arena. So if
you can just go outside, lace up and go and play,
that's good. We're losing that right across the board. We've
lost forty days from my dad's generation to mine, and
(14:56):
now my kids are going to have even less. So
this is an ongoing problem. It's a problem for Canadian hockey.
I know the Americans are going to relish that, but
it's you know, it's it's a thing, and it's showing
up in different parts of the world in different ways,
but that's what we're seeing it most.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors, Doug I got, I'm
curious for you, like as an athlete, I kind of
especially an athlete who grew up in Florida. I played
professionally in Orlando during a time where we had TV
rights on Lifetime that were making us play at one
(15:35):
in two o'clock in the afternoon, which was to me
like that you might as well put us in a
torture chamber. But I always my body always fell off,
like in the heat. Long before I guess I had
the words or understanding of how to explain why and
I'm curious, like what actually is going on with our
(15:55):
body in these extreme heat Like how is it affecting performance?
How is it affecting the players?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
Sure, so two biggest things that we're looking at is
the amount of hyperthermia, which is how high your body
temperature is getting. In the amount of dehydration, so the
amount of fluid that we're losing. So those independently dramatically
hinder performance, but then when you have those two together,
it's even exponentially worse. So all of the heat mitigation
(16:22):
strategies that we have in place are trying to combat
those two items to one help with performance, but also
to help with safety. So things that you see compromised
initially would be like, for instance, you'll cover less distance,
so people will run less during a game. They'll protect
themselves and run more when necessary. Next you'll run, you'll
have less sprints, the sprints will be less fast, You'll
(16:44):
have way more cognitive errors, so people will make mistakes
thinking in terms of the right thing to do, but
they'll also have motor skill mistakes in terms of you
know whatever, dribbling like you know, not catching the balls effectively, whatever,
things like that. So all those are affected by hyperthermia
and dehydration. And so when you look at the biggest
mitigation strategies, like body cooling strategies, how aggressively can you
(17:04):
cool at halftime. I've been at Youth World Cups. We
put kids and we put people in cold water immersion
tubs at halftime, because at halftime of soccer games, people
would be one hundred and four degree body temperature from
running around in forty five degrees and one hundred and
ten degree temperature. So if you aggressively cool for ten
or eleven minutes, you can get your temp down three
degrees instead of just sitting there and go down one degree.
(17:26):
So that's an example of body cooling. Another thing would
be heat acclimatization is getting your body ready to the
heat a few weeks beforehand so that you can better
deal with it. Another thing would be hydration. Hydration is
closely tied to your body temperature during intense exercise in
the heat, So hydrating the night before, the morning of,
after the warm up, during halftime, during the breaks. There's
(17:46):
a lot of things that can be done, but we
talked about before. I actually think there's a massive discrepancy
in this world Cup. If you play in an air
conditioning game and then five days later you have a
knockout stage game in the heat, you have a massive
advantage team that played in the heat and then has
to go to the heat. So that's a gross inconsistency
right now in terms of the level. I actually thinking
(18:07):
that literally as I'm watching these games of who what
did they do most recently? And I want to just
follo up to one thing Maddie was talking about before.
If I could go back in time one hundred and
twenty five years, I would make American football a spring
sport and not a fall sport, because I'd want the
pickup in March instead of in August.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Almost all of heat stroke deaths.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
In American American football in high school and college, they
happened in the first three or four days of practice
because we're putting full gear on people who are two
hundred and fifty three hundred pounds. The bigger people heat
up faster and cool down slower. Almost every death in
heatstroke in American high school has been linemen, and we're
having him do all this hard exercise and the hottest
time of the year and the most humid, So why
(18:47):
not do this in March and let baseball be a
fall sport instead. So I think thirty forty years from now,
when we just can't overcome the climate change anymore, I
think you'll see high school football become a spring sport instead.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Of a full Yeah, And I'll follow up here as
someone who lived the experience of sports in Florida. It's
a culture of toughness. It's a part of it, and
I think it's a part of the problem because we
are taught to push through heat and it's celebrated when
the toughest are out there and they're not complaining and
(19:21):
they're getting on the line, they're doing the work. But
at what point do we just start educating people and
what's safe, like guardrails are we actually implementing at this point?
Because science is science is science is science, and the
things are telling us that these are these are harming
and hurting us as children, but adults who are performing
(19:43):
and playing in these in these climate crisis moments as well.
So I'm curious what you guys think. What are we
doing right now to protect this young generation? How how
are we protecting these one percent athletes? Has it been hard?
War is federations and entities like FIFA actually listening to
(20:05):
what you guys have to say.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
We need American football coaches at the high school level
to do a better job. Yes, And the reason is
is if all the kids who died since nineteen ninety
five at the high school level and football from heat stroke,
they've all been alignment offensive and defensive. Wow, because they
heat up faster and they cool down slower. So why
are we forcing them to do the same conditioning sessions
as the other players. And also the stress of alignment
(20:29):
is very different than what a receiver does. They should
not be doing the same conditioning sessions. Also during the practices,
they need longer breaks because they need more time to
cool down. So we need to treat them differently, even
though they're on the same team. Coaches want everyone doing
the same thing to unify people together, but we need
to treat them differently and use the science we have
and the sports medicine knowledge we have to better protect
(20:50):
these linemen.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So that would be my biggest recommendation by far.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
The biggest group of heat stroke deaths in America in
the sports setting is American football players. That we have
specific knowledge on how to prevent the heat drove from happening,
and then also on the flip side, when a heat
stroke does happen, survivability is one hundred percent with cold
water immersion, and yet we still have people not being
aggressively cooled on site. And thankfully, over twenty high school
(21:15):
state associations now require cold water immertion like Florida does,
because when you were in high school in Florida, they
led the country for heatstroke deaths the state of Florida.
But now thankfully that they require as a state law
cold water immersion. Georgia requires that, Louisiana requires it. So
we need other people to be proactive, and then you
got to actually do it when it happens. Just because
(21:36):
you have the requirement doesn't mean people are implementing it.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Well, I'll go one step further and ask you this.
Do you think hydration breaks are even enough? Are they
simply just like treating the symptom instead of dressing the
bigger problem we're happying on.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
The extreme temperature ones.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
I do think it should be five or six minutes
to have a little more meaningful, but it's the halftime.
We need to make sure at halftime that they aggress
cooling is available for all teams now at the World
Cup level, it is, but I'm going to tell you
I work with you seventeen U twenty Youth World Cups
and that locker rooms aren't even air conditioned at these stadiums,
and they did not allow Cooling America to do certain
(22:13):
cooling if other countries didn't have access to it. So
FIFA should make sure the optimal cooling is available for
all teams. I mean, I know this high profile World
Cup we're all watching, but remember from most FIFA events,
it's much.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Much worse than the situation we have now because.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
They wait to the thirty two degree web Bove globe temperature,
that locker rooms are not air conditioning, they don't have
the aggressive cooling available. So I think we need to
use the resources to protect all levels and not just
this high profile situation right now.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I was just said, there's the culture element here too,
right if you're a teenage boy. If I'm a teenage
boy and I'm playing out a football teamer, I'm playing
on a soccer team and it's brutal conditions, but I'm
looking around at my team and I'm seeing them be fine.
I might not tell my coach I feel uncomfortable right now.
I actually probably wouldn't, right because I'm thinking right, because
(23:02):
I'm thinking like I played rugby, Like I definitely am
not telling them anything, and obviously, like that mentality needs
to change.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We need our coaches to understand.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
That athletes are able to communicate what's going on with
them is a strength. We need coaches to protect playing opportunities,
especially like it needs to be okay to say, hey, wait,
like something's up with me, get your water break, get
your cooling or whatever it is that you need.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
And this applies to concussions, it applies to all injuries.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Like I would say, this is a bigger thing than
just heat. Obviously heat is a big one right now,
but it applies elsewhere. We need coaches to be able
to receive that information. We need parents to be able
to advocate for their kids. We need kids to know, like, hey,
my buddy doesn't look okay, and to be able to
say that and not be like really messing with their
playing chances at their next game by saying so. So
(23:54):
I think you know, there's a culture shift that has
to happen here, and I think everyone has a role
in that parents have a role, kids have a role,
teachers how to rule everybody, because if we don't start
talking about it, like most of the earliest signs and
symptoms of something like heat stroke can be curved right
to Doug's case, like, we don't have to get to
the point of a heat stroke.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
It doesn't have to It never has to get there.
But people need to communicate.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Otherwise they're not going to have access to water, They're
not going to have access to cooling opportunities or a
break or some shade, even though that could, you know,
save their life potentially.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I want to hit this as well, because we can.
It's a really important statistic that recently just came out.
A recent sort of survey found that sixty six percent
of Americans degree public officials haven't done enough to prepare
for extreme weather, and sixty five percent say silence around
climate change puts all of our lives at risk. Right,
(24:48):
how do you feel, Like? What is your thought when
you hear that? And now we're having real numbers roll
out because we're seeing the implications climate change is having
on all of us as a whole.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Yeah, you know, there's this thing called like we talk
about the cycles of silence, right. And it happens when
you sit down at your Thanksgiving dinner with your family
and I'm sitting here thinking, my uncle definitely doesn't want
to hear about climate change, so I'm not going to
bring it up. And he's sitting there thinking, well, Maddie
talks about this all day. She definitely doesn't want to
talk about her work right now, so I'm not going
to bring it up. And then my mom is like,
I don't want a messy dinner, so nobody talk about
(25:25):
anything controversial, right, And so everyone's sitting there willing to
probably have a conversation in good faith, right and talk
about whatever it is that's going on in this case
climate change, and we should talk about it. And it
is hard, but it's hitting people in their day to days.
It's impacting your walk with your dog in the morning.
It's impacting how you get around, it's impacting your kids,
(25:46):
it's impacting our food supply.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Like it's a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
It can feel overwhelming, it can feel political. I think
we got to push through that and talk about how
it's impacting our day to day lives. It doesn't have
to be a political conversation can be a personal one,
and I think that that's meaningful in a very similar way.
So yeah, I think we got to you get past
the cycles of silence by being the person to bring
(26:10):
it up in brotish topic that can feel awkward. I
know it can. I'm the person who does it all
the time. So like I am that awkward girl that
will come to a sport event and talk about climate change.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Doesn't make me that popular sometimes.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I love it, but people come around, and you know what,
they come around because the conversation is not about feeding
people their vegetables.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
It's about let's.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Keep our future safe and fun and something that like
we can engage with and like, find me one parent
in America who doesn't want that for their kid.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And I'll wait, they don't exist.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We can have a conversation about this, So you just
got to be the person to bring it up. And
it can be about how hot it is today, it
can be about the weather.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That is a climate conversation that's worth having.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Well, there's another thing that I want to bring up
that you know, as someone who you know, the World
Cup is so it's the biggest world events. Let's just
say that in sports. And in twenty fifteen I played,
like you know, we played in the World Cup in Canada.
It was all on turf. It was a nightmare. And
(27:15):
I think that is the topic of conversation and research
we're not hearing enough about in my opinion, And I
don't know how much you both have dived into this,
but for context, when I said, you know, the unfortunate
part about sports is we are at the hands of
(27:38):
the TV deals the time slots. They need to put
us in time slots where they see fit, they see openings,
they see you know, where the numbers can actually move
at their highest But what my biggest issue and someone
who played in a game in Kansas City on turf
(27:58):
when it was one hundred degrees, which means the turf
was clocking at one hundred and seventeen degrees. We had
buckets of water on the sidelines because the pebbles of
the turf were burning our feet so bad. People had
to run off. This is professional sports, women's professional sports
(28:18):
at the highest level, running off of this turf field
to slam our feet into water to make sure we
don't burn the bottom of our feet. Guess what was happening.
It was melting the bottom soles of our boots off.
And to me, I'm like, why are we not talking
about it as a goalkeeper now? At you know, for
(28:40):
training for a World Cup and you know, we had
to train all on turf and I'm having to wear
in one hundred Derigge heat shirts pants so the rubber
pellets didn't burn into my skin because that's how hot
they were. And I'm curious of what you both think
(29:00):
about this because artificial turf now is becoming a very
big thing that's going everywhere because it's easy to maintain, right,
you don't have to do much, doesn't require a bunch
of water, it doesn't you just got to brush it.
But we're not talking about how it's affecting the players.
And I'm curious, like, what with the growing public concern
(29:22):
realm the chemicals being used to lay some of these
turf pellets, what do we even know what the health
risk is.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
We have a pretty good idea of what the health
risks are. There's there's different elements.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
So there's a conversation about falling on it and an
injury rate falling on it. They're very it's very comparable
to natural turf. It used to be that artificial turf
was much worse for injury rates. They've gotten a lot
better on that, so that that one's kind of more
comparable Now.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
It depends on how old your turf is.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I will say that if you're like at a high
school who hasn't had it replaced in years and.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Years, like you might not be back.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, turf burn is worse obviously anyone who has fallen
on it and knows.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
That it will hold.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So this is a piece right Like this sportocologist hat
in me is saying, always match the local conditions. So
turf isn't going to do that. Turf is just going
to be the same wherever you put it down, and
there's different kinds of turf. But natural grass that's meant
to be in that environment is going to be better
almost every time from a health standpoint and from a
(30:27):
maintenance standpoint compared to artificial turf and.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Imported grasses.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Right like that perfect green Augusta vibe like with the
perfect grass that people are going for.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
That's also not.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Great for a bunch of reasons because it just requires
so much maintenance to keep it that way in most environments,
unless like you are in a place like Georgia, where
that is what's normal. So turf is a messy one
in some countries. So like in Norway, they put it
in everywhere across the whole country, right fifteen years ago.
The country has now walked it back. The government has
said you need to get rid of this on every
(31:04):
single field everywhere, and I think it's by next year.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Like twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So they're walking it back for the health reasons but
also for the environmental reasons. And I think that this
is a conversation that we're not having enough in North America.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
So I'm glad you brought it up.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
The piece that I'm less familiar with, but I think
Doug is going to jump in on here is how
it holds and retains heat, and that's a whole other
piece of this puzzle.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Yeah, there's a few things to think about here. I
am actually a fan of turf fields sometimes only because
in the northern part of America you can be active
outside for much more of the year, right, you know,
during the winchtime. Normally you can't get into grass fields
till April because it's so wet and you destroy the fields.
So if it's a lot more months that people can
be active, I'm a huge fan of that. And for
(31:50):
some of the poorer school districts a turf, if that
means they can have a field versus other places, that
might mean more access to activity, which I'm also a
fan of. To support what you're both saying, you have
to make sure you're measuring the environmental conditions locally, and
we can't use weather apps. We can't be using an
app from a weather station. And the turf is way
way hotter, like you're saying. So when we're making decisions
(32:13):
for football practices and work to rest ratios and how
to have breaks, we need to measure those conditions at
the field because it's going to be way hotter on
a turfield and we need to make more precautions. And
maybe the first week of practice, maybe we can get
on a grass field for practicing and not use that turfield,
and maybe don't have it between one and five o'clock
in the afternoon when that's obviously most of that heat
(32:34):
is being retained. So but to get back to twenty
the other points, I went to some games in Autawa
and Montreal back in the twenty fifteen World Cup, and
I was shocked that they require for the Men's World
Cup games to be on natural grass, right, and even
the three indoor stadiums in Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta where
I was the last three days, they figured out a
way to get grass indoors for this World Cup and
(32:56):
they couldn't allow you guys to have grass fields for
the World Cup into the fifteen But that's ludicrous, right,
I mean, that's just a failure of this organization not
protecting the athletes in this particular situation. If there's an
organization in the world that could mandate a grass field
for the Women's World Cup, it's FIFA, right, Yes, it's
not like some small, like tiny sports organization. So big
(33:17):
groups like that they should make sure that they're doing
those things. Like I'll give the International Olympic Committee credit
for the Tokyo Olympics. They had a work group for
the three years before that I participated in, and they
let us have big control over when the events were
taking place, like we get to help decide when each
event should be, the time of the day, and different
precautions that could be They let us move the marathon
(33:38):
to six hours north in Sapporo because it's a much
cooler than Tokyo on average. So I do think you
can be more proactive. But I agree with you. I
was shocked in twenty fifteen. I mean, why would you
ever an organization like FIFA, we're going to just do grass.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
I mean, they just.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yes, stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment.
After this brief message from our sponsors, I want to
go dug a step further. You know, heat now is
not the only environmental change or issue I guess we're having.
I think air quality is becoming a major issue as well.
(34:17):
You know, I played professionally clearly, and we had a
game in Seattle when there was a lot of wildfires
and we were training and practicing and it was like
raining ash and the inside of our noses it was
black and you could feel it in your chest as
you're breathing hard. Nothing, nothing happened. We still went through
(34:41):
with the game. It seemed like it wasn't even an
issue to anyone else. And I'm curious now that we're
having really these issues going on. You know, you see
the fires that impacted California, you see it all over
the place. It's happening more frequently in Florida as well.
(35:01):
I'm curious, how does poor quality affect decision making for
these players, endurance, recovery, even the fans who are sitting
in it watching the sporting events. Do we have any
information on air quality how it's impacting the athletes.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Now this is in Mattie's books, so she's going to
answer for you love it.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
So air quality is an interesting one, right, I think
I want to just make excuse me, I want to
make the case that wildfire, smoke, and ozone are very
different things. They hit the body in different ways and
we process them differently. So I'm going to say that
we have to think of it as like a potion,
like our cocktail, right, and there's different ingredients, different sources
(35:47):
of air pollutants. Our bodies are pretty effective at managing this,
I will say that. So on the whole, in a
short term exposure, you're not going to see a whole
lot happen, even if you're running and taking in tons
more air because you're breathing through your mouth, which means
you're not using your nose.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
That's your best defense mechanism, by the way.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Is your nose, and when you're running and you're huffing
and puffing through your mouth, you're taking in more air
volume and you're taking it.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Straight down to your lungs.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
That set you would have to be out for a
while to really get enough for there to be significant
impacts right away. Soccer might get you there. A full
game of soccer, especially if you have a warm up beforehand,
you might get there towards the end. A football game
that goes on for three hours, you might get there
right So, but like your twenty minute run probably okay,
And I would still probably say unless it's like really
(36:38):
above your kind of two hundred and fifty three hundred
on the AQI scale, which you can check on your
weather app, I'd still say, like you're, you know, thirty
minute five k is probably fine.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Go do it just to be active.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Now, the big question is how much exposure do you
have over time? If you are living in a place
where you're working outside all day and you don't have
great air filtration in the building you're working in or
at home, your exposure over time, that's where we're going
to start to see some major issues. And that's where
it's really going to start to impact absolutely your performance,
but also your ability to think straight. Definitely your ability
(37:14):
to sleep. That's the one that people forget about with
heat and air pollution is sleep. There's big impacts there
and we can't let that go because you're as an athlete,
you know, like that's critical.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You can't mess that one up.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
So it's exposure time that's the big question. And then
like how bad is the your pollution if you're in
a fire zone, if you're in British Columbia, in Canada,
if you're in Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, like any of those
western states that see a lot of smoke.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
You want to reduce your overall exposure time.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, over the season, that's the big thing, right, And
then you know what is it going to do? Itchy eyes?
You're going to notice that real quick. You're going to
notice you feel it in your lungs a little bit.
What's happening there is you're getting pollutant content stuck in
your lungs into your bloodstream. It takes a lot for
it to have a big impact, but you'll start to
feel more tired. That'll happen pretty quick, and you're going
(38:06):
to start to feel a bit brain foggy. So the
first things you'll notice is the smell and your eyes
a lich and then when you start to feel any
of those other things, just get inside, take a break.
And I will say, masks work, Yes, they do.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
They work. You know, is it fun to run with
a mask? No, but it works. It will reduce it
meaningfully reduce the amount of pollutant content you get.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
So I will say, for those who are really desperate
to get out in hard conditions, put.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
On a mask.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
It will do something. It's not going to fix everything,
but it'll help a bit. Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, and I do think Maddie like sports have always
like adapted. I think that's something we do really well.
We're having new equipment that's making us stronger, faster, more educated,
we have better ideas of nutrition, how it impacts us.
You're talking about sleep with better recovery. Do you think
the next big topic evolution of sports is climate? Do
(39:02):
you think this is the big buzz that's coming next?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I think it might be the through line.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I don't know that it's going to be labeled as
like we're adapting to climate, although like that would make
me very happy.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
If we would talk about it that way.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I don't think I'll get my way on that one.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, but I think it's the through line.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Right. We talk about scheduling when the event d like
Katar for the Men's World Cup last time was in
the fall, because yeah, right, are we putting people in
kutar in this summer? So, but that precedent's been set,
like Tokyo in twenty one was hosted in the summer.
Tokyo in nineteen sixty four was in the fall because
someone had the good wisdom.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
To say, this is not okay, right, we can do
these things. We can make these changes. The proof is there.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
So it might look like scheduling changes, and part of
the reason will be climate change and weather. It might
be hydration breaks and structural changes to how the game
is played, and the reason will be climate change. But
it will look like something else on the surface. They
might not, but part of the justification behind the scenes,
to Doug's point about the IOC and the discussions happening.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
There is climate change, So it might. I would.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I think it's going to be part of the through line.
Like when we talk about new venues going up. Part
of the reason that some places are getting new venues,
like places like Dallas and Houston are both talking about
new venues for baseball way faster than they should in
terms of what the building can handle, but like they
just can't be outside.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
It's just a non starter.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
So so there go. And that's a climate conversation. It's
not build is that, But that's what it is. So
I think it'll be the through line. I just don't
think we're going to call it that.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
That's that's yeah, that's smart, and that totally makes sense.
And I just hope people start to get out of
feeling that this conversation is a political conversation and it's
like a safety it's a safety converse. It's a health conversation,
and it's important. I think we've politicized it so much
that people are tuning it out, and it's time for
(41:01):
people to start waking up because people are being impacted,
like in a real way, in a life or death way.
Like it has to be the forefront front right now
and topic of conversation. I'm curious for both of you,
what do you think the biggest misconception about heat and
climate change that's going on in sport that's frustrating you
(41:22):
the most.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
I think we have to also make sure we protect
kind of the marginalized people and not just worry about
these high profile events like the FIFA World Cup.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
When we were building preparing.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
For the Qatar World Cup, over six thousand people died
building the stadiums because of issues with the heat. Okay,
and FIFA and the organizing committee could have easily set
up precautions for these workers ahead of time. Now, they
did eventually build an eight hundred million dollar facility to
house all of these workers appropriately and air conditioning, have
potable water showers, dining, but that wasn't done proactively when
(41:56):
we knew there was going to be great risk. And also,
like a lot of our workers, I've seen the dark
side of this. I've been an expert witness on eighty
five cases of heat stroke deaths. Okay, So people die,
workers and athletes die because either coaches or their supervisors
did not do super simple things that we have all
of this knowledge right now. It was nothing that was
(42:17):
not available to them. They just didn't implement existing knowledge
related to prevention and treatment. So we were focused kind
of on this Men's World Cup, but it's the people
kind of behind the scenes, the lower levels of sports
the workers who are doing these ten or twelve hour
days at construction sites or oil and gas facilities or
building these stadiums to support the World Cup, that we
(42:38):
need to think about how we can protect those people,
but protect them proactively. When we give the Olympics and
a FIFA give sites to them, we need to say, Okay,
these are the precautions that are going to be in
place to protect the workers in the ten year build
up before we do the high profile event.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Brilliant and I do now remember the harsh and extreme
conditions that were going on. Right, We're not protecting people.
And you know, as someone who constantly has high level
athletes come to you to train to prepare, not always
not everyone gets access to that, right Doug. So I'm
(43:14):
curious if athletes or moms or dads are listening right now,
what's one thing that you think everyone can take away
to better prepare for competing in this new extreme heat.
Speaker 5 (43:29):
The biggest thing I would tell parents if there are
kids are like a high school football player, is do
not assume that they're being protected at that school. Make
sure the school has an athletic trainer. A third of
high schools in America don't have athletic trainers, so you
have a medical person there. Make sure that first, make
sure that they're using proper precautions. Make sure they're following
the State High School Athletic Association policies for measuring the
(43:51):
environmental conditions breaks hydration, cold water immersion, heat aclimatization. Be
aware of this and actually ask questions. Do not assume
that the coaches are doing the right things to protect
their child.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, the only thing I would add is like make
sure you talk to your kid, like, hey, when when
you feel too hot, Like it can be that simple, right,
Sometimes kids and especially little kids don't have the language
to tell us, So like, I, you know, I've been
working with my daughter's daycare.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I'm like, here's what you might see.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Little little ones right who like don't they can't tell
you I'm overheating because they don't have that language. But
a fifteen year old also might not actually tell you that.
So you got to build in that trust, and you
got to have those conversations real early. And it can't
just be something that like happens on the day that's
really really really hot. It's got to be kind of
an all summer, all spring like, hey, don't forget, like
(44:45):
you know, put on your sunscreen, wear a hat, and
tell someone if something's not okay.
Speaker 5 (44:50):
Yeah, ash Lynn, I'll tell you. I was just working
on an elite college football program and I was telling
the players. I said, you're going to have over a
thousand practices during your football career. Here on two or
three of those days, something's going to be off, like
you might have a fever that day, you're sick, you're
I just had a recent stomach distress, and you're more
dehydrated than normal. On those two or three days, tell
(45:11):
your athletic trainer, don't be a hero on those days.
That's when you're going to die from the huge stroke.
On the other nine hundred and ninety eight days, go
for it, go all out, give everything you have. But
some days you might be weak and just feel comfortable
saying something to someone. You just you maybe have a
one hundred and three degree fever that day because you
have the flu. Right, so let's be smart on that day.
(45:33):
Just give the people a little bit of power to
control their own destiny.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
That's so great, Doug, and I'm I'm so grateful you
both have literally dedicated your lives and career to studying
this because I do think it's a conversation we need
to have. We need to keep having this conversation. And
one thing I keep coming back to is athletes have
always adapted, and that's what we do. We train harder,
(45:59):
we recover, we're smarter, we push ourselves. But maybe the
bigger question isn't whether athletes can adapt, but maybe it's
worth if the sports themselves are actually willing to and
protecting us and the guardrails that come with it, because
climate change isn't a future conversation anymore. It's already changing
how we train, how we compete, and what safety looks like.
(46:23):
So a huge thank you to both of you. I
am so grateful for you both coming on here and
helping us unpack what's going on and just to separate
the headlines from the science and reminding us that protecting
athletes isn't about making them resilient, It's about making the
environment they compete and smarter and safer. So thank you
(46:44):
all for listening, thank you for being here on another
episode of Wide Open. And I hope this conversation changed
the way you look at the World Cup, but also
the way you see what climate looks like right now,
and how it's affecting us in real time. Thank you
all for being here, and we'll see you next week
on another episode of Wide Open
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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