June 29, 2026 • 48 mins
Happy Pride month from Wide Open! For more of your favorite LGBTQ+ content, check out the Outspoken Network from iHeartPodcasts.
Legendary film, television, and theater producer Bruce Cohen joins Ashlyn for a conversation about what showing up for the queer community looks like now— when it’s more needed than ever. Bruce is best known for producing films “American Beauty,” “Milk,” and his latest documentary “Reclaim the Flag.” The doc shines a light on the political movement to take back the American flag from those who have co-opted it as a symbol of hate and division. Ashlyn and Bruce talk about the ways the documentary moved them, and the importance of political activism.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Whine Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and today's guest is one
of the most accomplished producers in Hollywood. He's helped bring
some of the most iconic stories of our generation to life,
including American Beauty, which won the Academy Award for Best Picture.
(00:29):
He's also been a lifelong advocate of the LGBTQ plus community,
using storytelling not just to entertain, but to challenge, to inspire,
and to create change. His latest project, Reclaim the Flag,
asks a surprisingly powerful question, what does the American flag
(00:51):
mean to queer people? With July fourth around the corner
and America approaching its two hundred and fiftieth birthday, it's
a conversation that feels more relevant than ever. Welcome to
Wide Open. It's so great to have you here, Bruce.
Welcome to this show, my friend. I adore you so much.
(01:11):
I just gave you a beautiful little introduction of all
the things you do, which you hold so much on
your back. I don't know how you do it. You
are an incredible producer, you are one of the most
iconic storytellers out there, but you're also a dad and
a husband, and you're an activist and you've been such
(01:33):
a pivotal part in the queer community on how you
choose to show up. So I definitely want to introduce
you to our audience because there are so many people
who pave the way for change, who do it behind
the scenes, behind the camera, and you are one of
those people, and you are such a light and guiding
(01:55):
factor of how I show up in this world for
the community. And I'm just I'm so happy you're here, Bruce.
Welcome to Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you, Ashlyn.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I was so excited and looking forward to this and
now even more so after those beautiful words.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So that made my day.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And after I've done with this podcast, I'm going to
take the rest of.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
The day off.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Oh you deserve that. But it's a nice spot, Okay,
Well we can pretend. I mean, I truly during Pride Month,
I feel like if I just want to call out
of work, like I deserve that for just a brief moment,
to have some ease and joy and do something kind
and sweet for myself or for the community, I think
(02:37):
that's also winning.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I completely agree self care is super important and it's
really it's how I do everything that I do is
I give myself permission to take time off when I
want to and to say no and I need to,
or else I wouldn't be able to keep all the
(03:00):
balls in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I know, And you are juggling at all, honey. I
don't know how you do it, but I'm so lucky
to be in your sphere like you are such a
family member, chosen family member for me, you know, I'm
so lucky to get to live close to you and
have intimate dinners where we talk about our family and adoption.
(03:21):
You've like, really, you and your husband have really helped
me understand how to approach having hard conversations with my children,
and we share so much common ground. But I really
really just admire the way you show up and I'm
so grateful to have you in my corner. What a
joy it is.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Forever, baby, forever.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ever, you are stuck with me forever.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Why so talk to me?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Because I know you're originally from is It Falls Church, Virginia?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yes, it is right outside of Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Well, clearly we know why you're such a advocate. I'm
sure you were out there protesting at such an early age.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
My father was a union lawyer his whole career, and
he was actually at the march on Washington in nineteen
sixty three. So I was born and raised as all
activist my whole life. And actually when I was in
eighth grade, I was obsessed with and fascinated by the
Watergate hearings, and my mom let me stay home from
(04:28):
school and watched them gavel to gavel because she realized
that how much I was interested in it, and her
correct supposition was, I bet he learned more watching those
than his two weeks at junior public junior high school
at Fallstorch, Virginia. So I remember watching those, and really
(04:54):
my main takeaway was Barbara Jordan, the black w in
congress person from Texas, and just he was probably one
of my first divist icon heroes watching her on the
Watergate during the You.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Grow up and activism is a part of your DNA,
But what drew you to storytelling? Like? What drew you
to I'm going to be in Hollywood? Did you know?
Didn't you go study under Steven Spielberg? Did I read
that correctly? He was my original, He was my first boss.
The first movie I ever worked on was The Color
Purple his version of nineteen eighty five. I was the
(05:37):
Director's Guild trainee and when I was I'm eight years old,
my parents were out of town and my two grandmoms
came and were taking care of my sister and I
and they let me stay up and watch the Oscars.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And it was the year of Busch casting The Sundance Kid,
and I saw Robert Redford and Paul Newman and every
like gay little synapse in my little ah rural body
was exploding and watching the whole show, I saw that
little gold statue and I said, I want one of those.
(06:20):
That was my dream and goal in life for me.
It was never It wasn't about money or fame or
power or even in I didn't even connect it with
having a career in the entertainmentustry at the time. It
was just I want at Oscar. So that was how
(06:41):
I ended up falling in love with film. Although when
I and it was embarrassing because on the morning that
I got nominated for Best Picture for American Beauty, I
heard and at this point I'm thirty nine years old,
and I heard pretty much everyone I had ever met
(07:01):
in my entire life was all saying, you said you
wanted to win an oscar, that was your goal.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I literally have been talking about nothing else but this
my entire life.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And and I.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Had thought through the years that I didn't really enact
that with being in film. But one of my friends
I remember that morning, said to me, They're like, Bruce,
you made us do a film for our geometry project
in eighth grade. And I was like, yeah, I've a
loot about that. I guess I really have been film
focused my whole life. So the storytelling, gene can't. This
(07:42):
storytelling desire and love came early. Actually, my dad's a
great storyteller. My grandfather is a great storyteller. So I
do feel in a way it was passed down, but
that's just always sort of been a part of me.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. You've been both clearly
a producer and such a big advocate in our community.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Did you see those as separate parts of your life
or have you always feel like they've been connected and
how you choose to tell stories.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They were separate parts of my life originally when I
was little, this wonderful woman. Mary Anne Hurt lived across
the street from us, and she was a grand Doyenne
of the Northern Virginia Democratic Party. I loved mary Anne,
and I would be over her house all the time,
and she had me door to door campaigning. I did
(08:42):
my first campaign when I was four. I was quite
the precocious four year old, evidently, and having a four
year old at your door telling you who to vote
for was very effective. Turns out, yes, I was campaigning
for Allan magazine. He was running for a county supervisor
and he won, and I got a letter from him
(09:03):
thanking me for my contributions as a volunteer to his campaign.
And so politics that had always been a great passion
of mine. I already talked about the Watergate hearings. My
mom was and painting for Eugene McCarthy, who was the
left Democrat to the left of Hubert Humphrey in nineteen
(09:24):
sixty eight. I remember being at the polls handing out
McCarthy literature. And so my first love was the Democratic Party.
And then once I came out, and it was during
the AIDS years, and as I started being an LGBT activist,
(09:46):
there was a lot of tension at that point between
the Party and the queer community, and I actually always
stayed involved in both camps. Like I didn't renounce my
interest in the Democratic Party, but I was aware that
I was on two opposite sides, these two different groups
(10:07):
on a lot of issues, because the Democratic Party, although
certainly always better than the Republican Party, needed to be
dragged along, kicking and screaming into the queer rights world.
And that was one of the moving journeys of my activism,
was feeling.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Those two groups come together.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
You know, by gay marriage in you know, twenty twelve, thirteen,
fourteen fifteen, the distance between the two became much much smaller,
and that was really exciting to me to not be
like fighting with myself. Yes, and then, but the activism
had been separate from the movie making, although a lot
(10:51):
of the films I had worked on, including The Color Purple,
had queer content, had beautiful activist social justice content. And
then it was really Milk was a seminal moment for
me because as that project was brought to Dan Jinksi,
who were the producers at the time, and as we
realized we were going to get the chance to make
(11:12):
a movie about Harvey Milk. I was like, oh my god,
the two loves and pappens of my life here to
fourth separate are now coming together in one project that's both.
And so since that I've always looked for I continue
to do a lot of film and television, the theater
(11:34):
projects that aren't pure activism, but I'm always also wanting
to do and developing and looking for projects that fit
that mold of both, because that's really my happy place,
and that's.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Where Reclaim the Flag actually sits, literally in the middle
of both of these worlds. And Sophie and I got
to watch it and it's so beautiful and I really
left asking myself a lot of questions. But before we
dive into that, can you please tell everyone about the project.
(12:09):
You have very very powerful people in the queer community
who talk about their relationship to the flag, and there's
a mixed bag. But you see the heartache, you see
the passion, you see the love, and it's so beautifully
done that I guess I have never taken the time
(12:32):
to reflect those questions for myself as a woman who
was military, who was born and raised by Kennedy Space Center,
who played for the US women's national team for a very,
very long time. It just was so interesting after that
documentary to sit back and be like, oh, wait, what
(12:55):
does the flag mean to me? And do I feel
safe under that flag? So I'm curious what made you
want to tell this story. It's extremely thoughtful and smart,
and tell us about the project because it really is
beautifully done and I want everyone to go check it
out as we're getting close to July fourth, but also
(13:18):
we're sitting in Pride month and it is time for
us as a queer community to reclaim the idea of
what this flag looks like and how it represents us.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
And Juneteenth is coming up on Friday, which is really
relevant also, which I'll talk about in a minute. So
I'm a big believer in setting intentions and listening to
signs from the universe. I have been rewarded in so
many ways and with such instant consistency when I get
(13:52):
the signs from both. The more you listen to the
signs from universe and the more you go along with them,
the more you receive leave. So that's always been a
common theme in my life, and I feel like I
owe a great deal of the success that I've had,
and more importantly than that, the content it's allowed me
(14:14):
to get out into the world and the struggles that's
allowed me to be a part of because of all
of that. So we have a place in Germantown, as
you know, near you upstate and in our county. We
started noticing really starting in twenty sixteen, but through the
whole period, more and more American flags and getting the
(14:38):
very specific sense that they were all maga and that
it was becoming somehow the American flag had been co
opted and that now you see an American flag and
you think it's maga. And so we Gabe and I
were we were thinking, you know, forget that, like who
how that happened, and who gave them the flag? And
(15:01):
because of course we believe and know deeply in our
hearts they're actually less patriotic than we are because they're
against all of the foundations of democracy and we are
four all of the foundations of democracy. So we decided
that we would hang a huge flag on the side
of our barn, and Gabe found you an American made flag,
(15:22):
because that is also one of the smaller but important
issues of American flags is almost every American flag that
you try and buy is made in China. So when
you're going to get your American flag, make sure it's
a American made flag, like twenty by thirty feet and
hung it on our huge barn. But we we knew
we're like, okay, but if we just hang the American flag,
(15:43):
everyone will just assume that we're maga and as annoying
as that is, and how much that should be corrected,
what point are we making if we're just another maga flag.
So we decided this was in the run up to
the twenty twenty four election. We decided we'll put a
Harris Wall sign small, the flag's huge, and this little
tiny hairs Wall sign at the bottom so people know
(16:05):
we're making the point, like we are, this is what
we believe. And a week before the election, someone stole
the hairs Wall sign our from the yard. So now
we just have this American flag. So that was an
ongoing conversation of do we take the flag down? And
(16:26):
we said no, like, if we take the flag down,
we've we've given up the fight. The whole purpose is
this is our flag too, And yet on the other hand,
people won't know, people will assume that it stands for
something it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And then once Frump whose name I hate to even use,
but there you go.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Once he take took office, really starting on the first day,
the idea that anyone would drive by and think that
because we have an American flag up, we are supportive
of the communities he is harming and the rights he
has taken away became.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
More and more.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
We were more and more uncomfortable sitting with him, and
literally we would go up there on the weekends, most weekends,
so like each weekend we would have the discussion of
has the lineman crossed? Where now we have to take
down the flag because we can't stand by what this
country is doing. And in the middle of those weeks,
(17:30):
we hadn't decided yet to take it down, but we
were getting to the place where we're like, we have
to take this thing down. I get this phone call
from Alexis Batar, who I'd never met before, and Jason Weinberg,
who's an executive producer on the film, who's a master
of all. Alexis had called Jason and said, I want
(17:51):
to do this film we Claim the Flag, but I
don't know anyone in the film business, and you know,
Jason's like, you need to call Bruce Cohen because it was,
as you said, it sat at the center of the
entertainment and the activism combined. So Alexis calls me. We've
never met, Jason said, he's going to call. He's like, Hi,
I'm a Lex's bitar. And in Alexis's mind, he was
(18:13):
assuming he was going to have to do this whole
pitch about reclaiming the flag. And he's like, I'm thinking
of doing this film about reclaiming the flag. But I'm like,
oh my god, like I literally this is literally the
forefront issue on our minds.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
He's like, what are you talking about? You don't even know?
I go no, no, let me, I'm in. This issue
is consuming me right now. We wanted to get it
done as soon as possible. We started going out to
this beautiful panoply of queer leaders and activists in all
different fields. There were some who said no because it
(18:51):
was that they were not safe. They didn't want to
be on record talking about this. But there was this
beautiful group led by the Lena Waste and Rocket Willis's
and Darren Walkers and Cheyenne Jackson and Jim Parsons and
on and on and on of a lesbian, bisexual, transgender
of color, all religions, all fields, all ages. We really
(19:14):
wanted this wide tapestry of the queer community. And the
fun thing about documentaries is you have a you might
have a hypothesis, but you're letting your your speakers are
telling you how they feel.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So we were going to ask them questions. We didn't know.
We didn't even know if people would.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Support our hypothesis that the flag has been co opted, like,
are we the only two queers that have noticed that
people see the flag and think it was maga? And
what we we learned in the interviews two things, a
lot of things, but two headlines. Number one was it
was unanimous. Every single person we asked was aware and
(20:02):
concerned that the flag had been co opted. And we
didn't none of them hurt each other. We were you know,
they were all on their own. They didn't have any input.
We had no discussion with them advance other than that
we had showed them the questions we were going to ask.
And then the other thing we learned, which is really
powerful and which I'm really proud of how well we
(20:24):
express this in the film.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Going back to.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Genteenth is how many Americans, particularly for marginalized communities, particularly
of color, have never been safe under the flag and
this like horror that the white people, Oh my god,
now the flag doesn't represent us. They were saying, we
have felt this way about the flag for two hundred
(20:49):
and fifty years, which makes sense when you look at
the history of our country. But that was so that
emerged of really exciting reason why we were making the
film is to get that viewpoint across. And yeah, Lena
wait and Roquel willis you know, so strongly and so
(21:11):
directly Ye to that, you know, and Lina says, the
American flag is soaked in blood, it's drink.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And so those are sort of the two.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
And in the in our call to actions to the
campaign to Reclaim the Flag, which we can talk about
as well, you know, those that those are the two
premises of the mission statement is if you feel the
flag never represented you, and or if you feel the
flag has been co opted. Yeah, but it's really both,
(21:44):
you know, we are we learned and listen to understand
that we are not at all saying the flag was
this great thing and now it's been taken away. It's
extremely complicated but what what was exciting to us and
as we were filming, we're like, oh, this actually will work,
(22:05):
like this will actually be a good documentary. Is that
every American literally as a relationship, opinions of emotions about
stories involving the American flag, every single one of us.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And it because it's.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Very complicated and very interesting how the role that the
American flag has played in your life. And each person
has their own story, but everyone is a story of that.
And we actually we interviewed the first person and we
(22:49):
were like, there's We're like, what something's missing? Like their
answers were good, but they weren't emotionally connected, not to
what they were saying, and we're like, Okay, something we're
missing a question or something or maybe we're not prepping,
like what is it? And then we were like, oh no,
(23:12):
it's we had an idea. It's not that we're missing
a question. And we had these little American flags that
we had ordered, and we decided, starting with the second
interview and for all the rest that the end, after
they had answered all the questions they knew were coming
as a surprise that they were not prepared for, we'd
(23:34):
hand them the flag and that that moment where they
suddenly are holding a flag in their hand unlocked different
things for every single person we interviewed, and a lot
of the footage, almost probably most of the footage is
(23:55):
after they've been handed the flag, and what you're seeing
and unders standing is all of the emotions and stories
that it brought up holding that thing in your hand
and trying to figure out where we are as a
country and where we'd been and how we got here.
And just to say that the flag is it's the
(24:17):
flag is a metaphor and a symbol for the country
and for democracy, and the movement to reclaim the flag
is a metaphor and a symbol for reclaiming our country.
It's not about flag, It's about this democracy that is
in peril exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And Bruce, I'll tell you what really hit me emotionally
was when people started talking about pledging their allegiance to
the flag. And all of us young kids know in
this country, every day in school to start our day,
we put our hand over our heart and we looked
at that flag and we you know, for years we
(24:58):
pledged our allegiance to it, and it brought back this
feeling that, like I it just something came over me
and put me right back into that childhood body who
was so innocent, who felt, you know, the world was
my oyster like I the way I feel now as
(25:19):
an adult living through the harmful rhetoric that's going on
very pointed to our community in this administration versus who
I was as a kid when I felt in my
head I had endless opportunities. I'm curious of what story
really stuck with you or what like did you learn
(25:41):
the most, or what moment was like, oh my god,
this is it, this is it?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well what I was even before you asked that question,
I was preparing my moment about the Pledge of Allegiance
because yes, one of the you know, one of the
things I'm proud of in the film is that what
we really and we had so much material that what
we really tried for is every single word that every
single person says for the entire half hour is interesting,
(26:07):
and I think we succeeded nailed it. You actually could
stop after every person speaks and have a whole Q
and A about what that one person is talking about,
and then the next person talks about something else, and
then the next person talks about something else, and we
tried to capture the seminal, some seminal moments of about
(26:32):
how each different, each different way that people connect with
the flag. And one of the ways that people connect
with the flag is the Pledge of Allegiance. And George Taquay,
who if you know, one of our legends and icons
in the queer community, in the activist community, in the
Japanese American community. Yes, and a lot of people know
(26:55):
his story, which is that he was in an internment
camp his family when he was a boy, was one
of thousands of Japanese Americans who were rounded up.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And thrown into camp yep.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
And this is, you know, simultaneously happening with the concentration
camps in Nazi Germany. But we had the idea on
our own. We didn't even know about the camps yet,
and we as America, it is like, let's round up
our citizens and put them into camps.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So we knew that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
But what I think most people didn't know until he
was interviewed for this film is that in the internment camps,
they made these prisoners stay the Pledge of Allegiance every morning,
do a country that had rounded them up and thrown
(27:49):
them in camps and their citizens. So that was one
of that's one of the moments of the film that's
just like, oh my god. And it goes so directly,
powerfully to the reality that this country and this flag
has not been a safe space for so many Americans
(28:13):
for so long.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, and I remember kind of have goosebumps, Bruce, now
that you're saying that. I remember he said we were
at the end saying for liberty and justice for all
while we looked outside and we were in a cage,
we had fences.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
And then we have that shot which we cut to,
which is Japanese Americans again, American citizens behind barbed wire
in constant patient camps.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. For many LGBTQ plus Americans,
I mean, the flag has always been flown over institutions
that have denied our rights, our marriage, military service, healthcare, safety.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It's like our existence with trans people today.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
How literally, Yes, Bruce. And when you say we want
to reclaim the flag with the history, you know, how
do you even reconcile that pain and that harm, Like
even for example, like I mean not that I watched
it because I won't waste my energy or time, but
(29:29):
that that UFC American Sports and felt like the Hunger Games,
you know, and and this these these men are you know.
The thing that they say at the end of having
a fight that's supposed to unify and connect that's on
live television is Michelle Obama is a man Like I
(29:51):
don't feel safe with these people. I don't. I actually
don't want any part of these people, but I'm not
wishing them harm. Does that make sense? So it's like
in a place that is so fucking fragmented right now.
I am angry, Bruce, I am angry. I have children
(30:11):
I have to raise, and we both have black and
brown Asian children, Like we are already not really set
up for success under this flag in terms of how
we're protected. I don't know how I reconcile that to
reclaim it. And I'm this is my way of asking
(30:31):
you for guidance because I'm so angry. I don't want
to sit under the same fucking flag as those people.
They have lost the plot of what this flag is
supposed to mean and ran absolutely rogue with it. And
it's like we don't. We're not pledging to the same
flag and freedoms of everyone. So it's like, how do
(30:53):
we go from two places that are so far apart
to really connect and feeling that patriotism that like it's
it just means something different to me, And I don't.
I don't want to feel like bad for saying that.
I just like, I think it's possible to criticize your
(31:16):
country while loving it so deeply, and I feel like
I'm in the middle of.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That one thousand percent all of that. One of the
ways that I'm processing it is we didn't plan for,
nor desire the destruction of our country that we're watching,
and we didn't plan for nor desire to be in
a battle for whether our democracy would actually survive. I
(31:46):
think that took us all by surprise in many ways,
maybe it shouldn't. It probably took people of color less
by surprise. I produced this event, Rise Up sing Out
a concert for the First Amendment on Sunday night, which
was so powerful and Lily Gladstone was speaking to the
indigenous people's struggles in history and saying exactly that of like,
(32:12):
this country has been a nightmare of violence and oppression
for us since the beginning, which of course we know
and so but now that we're in this situation, first
thing is we're either going to save.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Our democracy or we're not.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
And part of this reclaiming it's our country that we
have to reclaim. That's the fight we're in. But the
flag is a symbol of our country, and so it's connected.
But then the other part of that, and this is
being discussed sort of across all issues, is that let's
(32:50):
say we do end up saving our democracy, which we
hope we will, and I deep I believe at my core,
yes we are going kiss And then the headline question
then is are we fighting to recreate what we had before,
which was so flawed for so many people, or are
(33:13):
we fighting to create something that is better than what
we had and different from what we had? Are we
going back to the same mistakes or are we fighting
for a new vision of this country that is more
equitable for everyone. And so that's that's why I believe
(33:37):
in and justified the reclaiming the flag is I don't
I'm not reclaiming that old flag.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I'm wanting to reclaim.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
If we're going to fight this hard to save our democracy,
let's create something that was worth savings.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I love that, Bruce, And for you know, I think
it's really interesting because I'm learning so much in real
time just listening. You know, I'm lucky enough to get
to go into queer spaces all the time, and it's
important to me because I get to be led by
(34:14):
people like yourself. I do, and I don't say that lightly,
and as someone who has gone through so much, I mean,
you are a big part of marriage equality being passed
in this country. You were a part. You know, you
were fighting constantly since you were a young boy for
(34:35):
the existence of our community. And you know, I am
just I want to help other people understand how they
can be a part of this activism because a majority
of the people who are listening and watching this podcast
are amongst the community. And I think sometimes so much
(34:56):
of the language and the jargon and all the things
silence us because we're so overwhelmed, especially the misinformation. It's like,
where do you even go? How do you even start?
And I'm curious how we can bring more people in
allyship part of the queer community to help reshape what
(35:17):
this new America is going to look like. How do
I want to leave this world a better place. But
sometimes we need to help people understand how to even
start to get into a place of activism and wanting
to create change. Being on the front lines, How can
(35:38):
we help people activate in a real way when they
don't really know what to do. What would be your suggestion,
as someone who has lived this since such a young boy.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Well, you just gave me a new answer to that question,
which I'm loving, which is listen, yeah. And what I
mean by that is, I mean you were attempting to
compliment me, which I love and appreciate. But what I realized,
and I don't know if I'd thought of it in
(36:12):
this way before, is that the That's the gift I
get from producing these events and planning these marches is
puts me in these spaces where then night after night
after night after night, I get to hear these extraordinary
(36:34):
activists and fail, never fail. I get so much renewal
and inspiration and kills from the different things that I
hear each event, and with Rise Up being an example
of like the sustenance I got from all the different
(36:59):
people hearing what Lily was saying, which I already mentioned,
what Jane Fonda was saying, and de Niro's fiery speech
go It's online, It's everywhere, and Julia Roberts reading Renee
Goods poem and Latasha Brown, the founder Black Voters Matter.
I mean just inspiration after inspiration after inspiration, along with
(37:21):
call to action. So what I'd say to people is
is go to the event, get find the live stream,
watch the podcast, like let the people on whose shoulders
we stand and who are out there talking every single day,
and you'll find it might take a couple but when
(37:45):
you're in, you'll know it. When you're inspired, you'll find
the person of like, oh, now I know what I want.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
To do, and I do.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I will say, I'll get slightly up on my high
horse just to say that what you know, what we're
hearing again and again and again now is okay. I
mean I want to help, which is actually good. We're
moving forward because for a long time it was like
I'm too scared, I'm too overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I don't you know.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
But now more and more people are like, no, I
want to help, Like, yes, I agree, I have to
say the democracy, but I don't know what to do.
I just want someone to tell me what to do,
like just hand it to me people want to hand
it to them on a silver platter. And so two
things about that is number one, Okay, that's not really
how activism works.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And like it. There's no shortage of people.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Who will just say, just do this, just text this number,
just and that's easily findable. You are only one Google
search away if you want someone to tell you the
specific action that you can take today, you are only
one Google question away from getting that information on any
issue that interests you. Pick any question you can think of,
(39:03):
you ask the Google.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It will give you the website.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
But I think that things are interconnected to It's like
you're you're if you are feeling like I wish someone
would just tell me what to do. If you go
to an event or listen to a podcast or a
live stream, you'll find that. And what's good about that
(39:28):
is it won't just be the generic thing. It'll be
the thing that moves you and gives you chills and
gets you excited, and you'll be like, oh, I want
to support that group. I want to take the action
steps to reclaim the flab, or I want to support
Black Voters Matter, or I want to help Indigenous rights,
(39:48):
or I want to help the trans community, or I
want to help register to vote, or I want to
help election protection, or I want to be a poll watcher. Okay,
I just gave you ate things, so like, did any
of those resonate with you? If so, google that and
if not, keep going till you find the one that resonates.
(40:10):
Because the more excited and passionate you are and connected
you feel to the actual thing you.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Are doing, that's the good news. And the bad news.
It's a shit show everywhere.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
There is so much that you can't think of an
issue or an organization or a community that doesn't need
your help desperately. But don't look at it like, oh
my god, I'm over where do I start?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
No, that's the beauty you all. You only have to.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Pick one, and you can pick the one that is
most relevant to you and you can help that one.
And if in what's happening and you know it's the
it's the snowflake on the branch story, which I love
is you know there is that the infinite number of
snowflakes and then one falls and the branch breaks, Like
(40:58):
that's what you you You are not responsible for saving democracy.
You are not responsible for saving the world. You are
not responsible for fixing the issue that were that you're
worried about.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Most.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
You're responsible for just doing the one thing today to
get started, to help one little issue, one little group,
bring your friends, and if everyone does that, that's going
to be enough. That's going to be how we win.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I love that. And for some curious for this younger generation,
who I really think are smarter, wiser, they understand it.
These young kids are going to save us. I really do.
Going to the events, hearing the way they talk. They're
in high school, they're doing walkouts for equal rights and
protecting their queer brothers, sisters, that she's the the the
(41:53):
them's all. They are just so much more advanced than
we were as young kids. But I'm curious what person
makes you hopeful? A young person that makes you hopeful
for our future that maybe some of our listeners can
go and consume their content, listen to them speak, see
(42:15):
the way they show up. Do you have a young
person that you feel like is really moving the needle
right now?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
The well, I will say, I agree with everything you said.
I just want to encourage the young people also though,
to be in person and to be in community. Yes,
and for all of the incredible activism that can happen
on our devices, there's also the human connection that is
(42:45):
necessary and where stuff happens. And you know, for me,
it's actually I'm moved more recently by the young kids
who don't really have the platform. I mean, we had
seven or eight year old Earl speaking on stage Sunday
(43:06):
night who had had friends in Dilly in the detention camp,
and there were actually then she had two girl and
her sister who I met after, who were a little
older preteens who didn't speak, but they were up on
stage who had been in Dylan And so it's you know,
(43:29):
hearing from kids like that who have actually experienced the
herb we're in and are willing to talk about it
really gives me strength and also the feeling of like
nothing I've ever had to deal with compares to that.
So if they can make it through that and still
(43:52):
be invested in the fight to save this country which
has tried to destroy them, tried to kill them, then
certainly I can keep marching.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
I love that. Well. I'm so grateful for the way
you show up and you have really paved the way
a lot for me and taking ownership of listen. If
you have a platform, we have like a duty to
use it the right way right And I think too
often a lot of people have these microphones because they're
(44:25):
easy and accessible, and they're spreading a lot of hate.
And I say this really, I say this often, Bruce.
Sometimes the hard harshest critics are some of the people
within our community. And we just we really really have
to be mindful and meaningful in the way we show
(44:48):
up and what we say and how we connect people.
And you did that through this documentary. You you have
a beautiful way of that intersection of act division, storytelling
real raw people and life experiences, and you put it
in a way that makes us not only reflect on
(45:08):
the stories we haven't lived, but answer those within our own.
And that is the magic you bring to what you do.
And I'm very grateful for that because I have learned
so much by being in your presence, and I'm grateful
you continue to invite me into these rooms because I'm
(45:30):
hungry to do the same thing. I want a life
full of service in the right way, because I want
to leave this place better than I found it. I
want to reclaim this flag. I want it to be
a safe space not just for our community but for everyone.
And it's going to take work, and we have to
be ready for that work. But we have to be
(45:51):
connected and respectful throughout this work. And I just want
you to know I can't speak highly enough about you,
and I'm grateful for our friendship.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Thank you, Ashlyn. It means so much to me. I
feel the same way, and we have such a great
future of activism together. I want to just leave you
in the audience with two things. Number one is the
film Reclaim the Flag is on YouTube, so you can
go watch it. You can also go to Reclaimthflag dot
us and that has all the steps of how you
(46:23):
reclaim the flag. We're really wanting people to display the flag,
fly it if you feel comfortable with that, if you
want to put it with a Pride flag or a
Black Lives Matter flag or any other identifying flag so
people know where you stand.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
We love that.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
But we really want people to record, make some videos
and post about how they feel about the flag and
to challenge friends and invite friends to do that as well.
And then the other thing that I just want to
put into this space is this incredible quote that Jane Fonda,
my latest activist led to the icon and friend has
(47:01):
come up with and has been saying, which I kind
of think does it all? And Jane is saying, I
think we have to become living ambassadors to an irresistible
future where everybody will be seen and respected by their government.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Wow, and there you have it. Bruce, thank you so
much for being on Wide Open, and thank you all
for listening, and we'll see you next week on another episode.
Thanks everyone, Thanks everyone. Wow, what an incredible conversation and
what I took from it most importantly is that patriotsm
(47:40):
isn't always about perfection. It's about participation. It's about believing
a country can become more inclusive, more honest, and more
reflective of the people who call it home. Bruce's documentary
challenges us to ask powerful questions, and the one of
love it all is who gets to feel ownership over
(48:03):
the American story? And maybe the answer is all of us.
As we celebrate Pride Month and we approach America's two
hundred and fiftieth birthday. That's a conversation worth having and
I'm hoping you're willing to have that within your own home,
in your own communities. Bruce. Thank you so much for
joining me, and thank you for having us think differently
(48:27):
about belonging, identity and what it truly means to reclaim
the flag. This is wide open. I'm Ashland Harris and
we will see you guys next week
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Whine Open.
I'm your host, Ashlyn Harris, and today's guest is one
of the most accomplished producers in Hollywood. He's helped bring
some of the most iconic stories of our generation to life,
including American Beauty, which won the Academy Award for Best Picture.
(00:29):
He's also been a lifelong advocate of the LGBTQ plus community,
using storytelling not just to entertain, but to challenge, to inspire,
and to create change. His latest project, Reclaim the Flag,
asks a surprisingly powerful question, what does the American flag
(00:51):
mean to queer people? With July fourth around the corner
and America approaching its two hundred and fiftieth birthday, it's
a conversation that feels more relevant than ever. Welcome to
Wide Open. It's so great to have you here, Bruce.
Welcome to this show, my friend. I adore you so much.
(01:11):
I just gave you a beautiful little introduction of all
the things you do, which you hold so much on
your back. I don't know how you do it. You
are an incredible producer, you are one of the most
iconic storytellers out there, but you're also a dad and
a husband, and you're an activist and you've been such
(01:33):
a pivotal part in the queer community on how you
choose to show up. So I definitely want to introduce
you to our audience because there are so many people
who pave the way for change, who do it behind
the scenes, behind the camera, and you are one of
those people, and you are such a light and guiding
(01:55):
factor of how I show up in this world for
the community. And I'm just I'm so happy you're here, Bruce.
Welcome to Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you, Ashlyn.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I was so excited and looking forward to this and
now even more so after those beautiful words.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
So that made my day.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And after I've done with this podcast, I'm going to
take the rest of.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
The day off.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Oh you deserve that. But it's a nice spot, Okay,
Well we can pretend. I mean, I truly during Pride Month,
I feel like if I just want to call out
of work, like I deserve that for just a brief moment,
to have some ease and joy and do something kind
and sweet for myself or for the community, I think
(02:37):
that's also winning.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I completely agree self care is super important and it's
really it's how I do everything that I do is
I give myself permission to take time off when I
want to and to say no and I need to,
or else I wouldn't be able to keep all the
(03:00):
balls in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I know, And you are juggling at all, honey. I
don't know how you do it, but I'm so lucky
to be in your sphere like you are such a
family member, chosen family member for me, you know, I'm
so lucky to get to live close to you and
have intimate dinners where we talk about our family and adoption.
(03:21):
You've like, really, you and your husband have really helped
me understand how to approach having hard conversations with my children,
and we share so much common ground. But I really
really just admire the way you show up and I'm
so grateful to have you in my corner. What a
joy it is.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Forever, baby, forever.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ever, you are stuck with me forever.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Why so talk to me?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Because I know you're originally from is It Falls Church, Virginia?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yes, it is right outside of Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Well, clearly we know why you're such a advocate. I'm
sure you were out there protesting at such an early age.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
My father was a union lawyer his whole career, and
he was actually at the march on Washington in nineteen
sixty three. So I was born and raised as all
activist my whole life. And actually when I was in
eighth grade, I was obsessed with and fascinated by the
Watergate hearings, and my mom let me stay home from
(04:28):
school and watched them gavel to gavel because she realized
that how much I was interested in it, and her
correct supposition was, I bet he learned more watching those
than his two weeks at junior public junior high school
at Fallstorch, Virginia. So I remember watching those, and really
(04:54):
my main takeaway was Barbara Jordan, the black w in
congress person from Texas, and just he was probably one
of my first divist icon heroes watching her on the
Watergate during the You.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Grow up and activism is a part of your DNA,
But what drew you to storytelling? Like? What drew you
to I'm going to be in Hollywood? Did you know?
Didn't you go study under Steven Spielberg? Did I read
that correctly? He was my original, He was my first boss.
The first movie I ever worked on was The Color
Purple his version of nineteen eighty five. I was the
(05:37):
Director's Guild trainee and when I was I'm eight years old,
my parents were out of town and my two grandmoms
came and were taking care of my sister and I
and they let me stay up and watch the Oscars.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And it was the year of Busch casting The Sundance Kid,
and I saw Robert Redford and Paul Newman and every
like gay little synapse in my little ah rural body
was exploding and watching the whole show, I saw that
little gold statue and I said, I want one of those.
(06:20):
That was my dream and goal in life for me.
It was never It wasn't about money or fame or
power or even in I didn't even connect it with
having a career in the entertainmentustry at the time. It
was just I want at Oscar. So that was how
(06:41):
I ended up falling in love with film. Although when
I and it was embarrassing because on the morning that
I got nominated for Best Picture for American Beauty, I
heard and at this point I'm thirty nine years old,
and I heard pretty much everyone I had ever met
(07:01):
in my entire life was all saying, you said you
wanted to win an oscar, that was your goal.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I literally have been talking about nothing else but this
my entire life.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And and I.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Had thought through the years that I didn't really enact
that with being in film. But one of my friends
I remember that morning, said to me, They're like, Bruce,
you made us do a film for our geometry project
in eighth grade. And I was like, yeah, I've a
loot about that. I guess I really have been film
focused my whole life. So the storytelling, gene can't. This
(07:42):
storytelling desire and love came early. Actually, my dad's a
great storyteller. My grandfather is a great storyteller. So I
do feel in a way it was passed down, but
that's just always sort of been a part of me.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. You've been both clearly
a producer and such a big advocate in our community.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Did you see those as separate parts of your life
or have you always feel like they've been connected and
how you choose to tell stories.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They were separate parts of my life originally when I
was little, this wonderful woman. Mary Anne Hurt lived across
the street from us, and she was a grand Doyenne
of the Northern Virginia Democratic Party. I loved mary Anne,
and I would be over her house all the time,
and she had me door to door campaigning. I did
(08:42):
my first campaign when I was four. I was quite
the precocious four year old, evidently, and having a four
year old at your door telling you who to vote
for was very effective. Turns out, yes, I was campaigning
for Allan magazine. He was running for a county supervisor
and he won, and I got a letter from him
(09:03):
thanking me for my contributions as a volunteer to his campaign.
And so politics that had always been a great passion
of mine. I already talked about the Watergate hearings. My
mom was and painting for Eugene McCarthy, who was the
left Democrat to the left of Hubert Humphrey in nineteen
(09:24):
sixty eight. I remember being at the polls handing out
McCarthy literature. And so my first love was the Democratic Party.
And then once I came out, and it was during
the AIDS years, and as I started being an LGBT activist,
(09:46):
there was a lot of tension at that point between
the Party and the queer community, and I actually always
stayed involved in both camps. Like I didn't renounce my
interest in the Democratic Party, but I was aware that
I was on two opposite sides, these two different groups
(10:07):
on a lot of issues, because the Democratic Party, although
certainly always better than the Republican Party, needed to be
dragged along, kicking and screaming into the queer rights world.
And that was one of the moving journeys of my activism,
was feeling.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Those two groups come together.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
You know, by gay marriage in you know, twenty twelve, thirteen,
fourteen fifteen, the distance between the two became much much smaller,
and that was really exciting to me to not be
like fighting with myself. Yes, and then, but the activism
had been separate from the movie making, although a lot
(10:51):
of the films I had worked on, including The Color Purple,
had queer content, had beautiful activist social justice content. And
then it was really Milk was a seminal moment for
me because as that project was brought to Dan Jinksi,
who were the producers at the time, and as we
realized we were going to get the chance to make
(11:12):
a movie about Harvey Milk. I was like, oh my god,
the two loves and pappens of my life here to
fourth separate are now coming together in one project that's both.
And so since that I've always looked for I continue
to do a lot of film and television, the theater
(11:34):
projects that aren't pure activism, but I'm always also wanting
to do and developing and looking for projects that fit
that mold of both, because that's really my happy place,
and that's.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Where Reclaim the Flag actually sits, literally in the middle
of both of these worlds. And Sophie and I got
to watch it and it's so beautiful and I really
left asking myself a lot of questions. But before we
dive into that, can you please tell everyone about the project.
(12:09):
You have very very powerful people in the queer community
who talk about their relationship to the flag, and there's
a mixed bag. But you see the heartache, you see
the passion, you see the love, and it's so beautifully
done that I guess I have never taken the time
(12:32):
to reflect those questions for myself as a woman who
was military, who was born and raised by Kennedy Space Center,
who played for the US women's national team for a very,
very long time. It just was so interesting after that
documentary to sit back and be like, oh, wait, what
(12:55):
does the flag mean to me? And do I feel
safe under that flag? So I'm curious what made you
want to tell this story. It's extremely thoughtful and smart,
and tell us about the project because it really is
beautifully done and I want everyone to go check it
out as we're getting close to July fourth, but also
(13:18):
we're sitting in Pride month and it is time for
us as a queer community to reclaim the idea of
what this flag looks like and how it represents us.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
And Juneteenth is coming up on Friday, which is really
relevant also, which I'll talk about in a minute. So
I'm a big believer in setting intentions and listening to
signs from the universe. I have been rewarded in so
many ways and with such instant consistency when I get
(13:52):
the signs from both. The more you listen to the
signs from universe and the more you go along with them,
the more you receive leave. So that's always been a
common theme in my life, and I feel like I
owe a great deal of the success that I've had,
and more importantly than that, the content it's allowed me
(14:14):
to get out into the world and the struggles that's
allowed me to be a part of because of all
of that. So we have a place in Germantown, as
you know, near you upstate and in our county. We
started noticing really starting in twenty sixteen, but through the
whole period, more and more American flags and getting the
(14:38):
very specific sense that they were all maga and that
it was becoming somehow the American flag had been co
opted and that now you see an American flag and
you think it's maga. And so we Gabe and I
were we were thinking, you know, forget that, like who
how that happened, and who gave them the flag? And
(15:01):
because of course we believe and know deeply in our
hearts they're actually less patriotic than we are because they're
against all of the foundations of democracy and we are
four all of the foundations of democracy. So we decided
that we would hang a huge flag on the side
of our barn, and Gabe found you an American made flag,
(15:22):
because that is also one of the smaller but important
issues of American flags is almost every American flag that
you try and buy is made in China. So when
you're going to get your American flag, make sure it's
a American made flag, like twenty by thirty feet and
hung it on our huge barn. But we we knew
we're like, okay, but if we just hang the American flag,
(15:43):
everyone will just assume that we're maga and as annoying
as that is, and how much that should be corrected,
what point are we making if we're just another maga flag.
So we decided this was in the run up to
the twenty twenty four election. We decided we'll put a
Harris Wall sign small, the flag's huge, and this little
tiny hairs Wall sign at the bottom so people know
(16:05):
we're making the point, like we are, this is what
we believe. And a week before the election, someone stole
the hairs Wall sign our from the yard. So now
we just have this American flag. So that was an
ongoing conversation of do we take the flag down? And
(16:26):
we said no, like, if we take the flag down,
we've we've given up the fight. The whole purpose is
this is our flag too, And yet on the other hand,
people won't know, people will assume that it stands for
something it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And then once Frump whose name I hate to even use,
but there you go.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Once he take took office, really starting on the first day,
the idea that anyone would drive by and think that
because we have an American flag up, we are supportive
of the communities he is harming and the rights he
has taken away became.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
More and more.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
We were more and more uncomfortable sitting with him, and
literally we would go up there on the weekends, most weekends,
so like each weekend we would have the discussion of
has the lineman crossed? Where now we have to take
down the flag because we can't stand by what this
country is doing. And in the middle of those weeks,
(17:30):
we hadn't decided yet to take it down, but we
were getting to the place where we're like, we have
to take this thing down. I get this phone call
from Alexis Batar, who I'd never met before, and Jason Weinberg,
who's an executive producer on the film, who's a master
of all. Alexis had called Jason and said, I want
(17:51):
to do this film we Claim the Flag, but I
don't know anyone in the film business, and you know,
Jason's like, you need to call Bruce Cohen because it was,
as you said, it sat at the center of the
entertainment and the activism combined. So Alexis calls me. We've
never met, Jason said, he's going to call. He's like, Hi,
I'm a Lex's bitar. And in Alexis's mind, he was
(18:13):
assuming he was going to have to do this whole
pitch about reclaiming the flag. And he's like, I'm thinking
of doing this film about reclaiming the flag. But I'm like,
oh my god, like I literally this is literally the
forefront issue on our minds.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
He's like, what are you talking about? You don't even know?
I go no, no, let me, I'm in. This issue
is consuming me right now. We wanted to get it
done as soon as possible. We started going out to
this beautiful panoply of queer leaders and activists in all
different fields. There were some who said no because it
(18:51):
was that they were not safe. They didn't want to
be on record talking about this. But there was this
beautiful group led by the Lena Waste and Rocket Willis's
and Darren Walkers and Cheyenne Jackson and Jim Parsons and
on and on and on of a lesbian, bisexual, transgender
of color, all religions, all fields, all ages. We really
(19:14):
wanted this wide tapestry of the queer community. And the
fun thing about documentaries is you have a you might
have a hypothesis, but you're letting your your speakers are
telling you how they feel.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So we were going to ask them questions. We didn't know.
We didn't even know if people would.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Support our hypothesis that the flag has been co opted, like,
are we the only two queers that have noticed that
people see the flag and think it was maga? And
what we we learned in the interviews two things, a
lot of things, but two headlines. Number one was it
was unanimous. Every single person we asked was aware and
(20:02):
concerned that the flag had been co opted. And we
didn't none of them hurt each other. We were you know,
they were all on their own. They didn't have any input.
We had no discussion with them advance other than that
we had showed them the questions we were going to ask.
And then the other thing we learned, which is really
powerful and which I'm really proud of how well we
(20:24):
express this in the film.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Going back to.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Genteenth is how many Americans, particularly for marginalized communities, particularly
of color, have never been safe under the flag and
this like horror that the white people, Oh my god,
now the flag doesn't represent us. They were saying, we
have felt this way about the flag for two hundred
(20:49):
and fifty years, which makes sense when you look at
the history of our country. But that was so that
emerged of really exciting reason why we were making the
film is to get that viewpoint across. And yeah, Lena
wait and Roquel willis you know, so strongly and so
(21:11):
directly Ye to that, you know, and Lina says, the
American flag is soaked in blood, it's drink.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And so those are sort of the two.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
And in the in our call to actions to the
campaign to Reclaim the Flag, which we can talk about
as well, you know, those that those are the two
premises of the mission statement is if you feel the
flag never represented you, and or if you feel the
flag has been co opted. Yeah, but it's really both,
(21:44):
you know, we are we learned and listen to understand
that we are not at all saying the flag was
this great thing and now it's been taken away. It's
extremely complicated but what what was exciting to us and
as we were filming, we're like, oh, this actually will work,
(22:05):
like this will actually be a good documentary. Is that
every American literally as a relationship, opinions of emotions about
stories involving the American flag, every single one of us.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And it because it's.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Very complicated and very interesting how the role that the
American flag has played in your life. And each person
has their own story, but everyone is a story of that.
And we actually we interviewed the first person and we
(22:49):
were like, there's We're like, what something's missing? Like their
answers were good, but they weren't emotionally connected, not to
what they were saying, and we're like, Okay, something we're
missing a question or something or maybe we're not prepping,
like what is it? And then we were like, oh no,
(23:12):
it's we had an idea. It's not that we're missing
a question. And we had these little American flags that
we had ordered, and we decided, starting with the second
interview and for all the rest that the end, after
they had answered all the questions they knew were coming
as a surprise that they were not prepared for, we'd
(23:34):
hand them the flag and that that moment where they
suddenly are holding a flag in their hand unlocked different
things for every single person we interviewed, and a lot
of the footage, almost probably most of the footage is
(23:55):
after they've been handed the flag, and what you're seeing
and unders standing is all of the emotions and stories
that it brought up holding that thing in your hand
and trying to figure out where we are as a
country and where we'd been and how we got here.
And just to say that the flag is it's the
(24:17):
flag is a metaphor and a symbol for the country
and for democracy, and the movement to reclaim the flag
is a metaphor and a symbol for reclaiming our country.
It's not about flag, It's about this democracy that is
in peril exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And Bruce, I'll tell you what really hit me emotionally
was when people started talking about pledging their allegiance to
the flag. And all of us young kids know in
this country, every day in school to start our day,
we put our hand over our heart and we looked
at that flag and we you know, for years we
(24:58):
pledged our allegiance to it, and it brought back this
feeling that, like I it just something came over me
and put me right back into that childhood body who
was so innocent, who felt, you know, the world was
my oyster like I the way I feel now as
(25:19):
an adult living through the harmful rhetoric that's going on
very pointed to our community in this administration versus who
I was as a kid when I felt in my
head I had endless opportunities. I'm curious of what story
really stuck with you or what like did you learn
(25:41):
the most, or what moment was like, oh my god,
this is it, this is it?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well what I was even before you asked that question,
I was preparing my moment about the Pledge of Allegiance
because yes, one of the you know, one of the
things I'm proud of in the film is that what
we really and we had so much material that what
we really tried for is every single word that every
single person says for the entire half hour is interesting,
(26:07):
and I think we succeeded nailed it. You actually could
stop after every person speaks and have a whole Q
and A about what that one person is talking about,
and then the next person talks about something else, and
then the next person talks about something else, and we
tried to capture the seminal, some seminal moments of about
(26:32):
how each different, each different way that people connect with
the flag. And one of the ways that people connect
with the flag is the Pledge of Allegiance. And George Taquay,
who if you know, one of our legends and icons
in the queer community, in the activist community, in the
Japanese American community. Yes, and a lot of people know
(26:55):
his story, which is that he was in an internment
camp his family when he was a boy, was one
of thousands of Japanese Americans who were rounded up.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And thrown into camp yep.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
And this is, you know, simultaneously happening with the concentration
camps in Nazi Germany. But we had the idea on
our own. We didn't even know about the camps yet,
and we as America, it is like, let's round up
our citizens and put them into camps.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So we knew that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
But what I think most people didn't know until he
was interviewed for this film is that in the internment camps,
they made these prisoners stay the Pledge of Allegiance every morning,
do a country that had rounded them up and thrown
(27:49):
them in camps and their citizens. So that was one
of that's one of the moments of the film that's
just like, oh my god. And it goes so directly,
powerfully to the reality that this country and this flag
has not been a safe space for so many Americans
(28:13):
for so long.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, and I remember kind of have goosebumps, Bruce, now
that you're saying that. I remember he said we were
at the end saying for liberty and justice for all
while we looked outside and we were in a cage,
we had fences.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
And then we have that shot which we cut to,
which is Japanese Americans again, American citizens behind barbed wire
in constant patient camps.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after
this brief message from our sponsors. For many LGBTQ plus Americans,
I mean, the flag has always been flown over institutions
that have denied our rights, our marriage, military service, healthcare, safety.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It's like our existence with trans people today.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
How literally, Yes, Bruce. And when you say we want
to reclaim the flag with the history, you know, how
do you even reconcile that pain and that harm, Like
even for example, like I mean not that I watched
it because I won't waste my energy or time, but
(29:29):
that that UFC American Sports and felt like the Hunger Games,
you know, and and this these these men are you know.
The thing that they say at the end of having
a fight that's supposed to unify and connect that's on
live television is Michelle Obama is a man Like I
(29:51):
don't feel safe with these people. I don't. I actually
don't want any part of these people, but I'm not
wishing them harm. Does that make sense? So it's like
in a place that is so fucking fragmented right now.
I am angry, Bruce, I am angry. I have children
(30:11):
I have to raise, and we both have black and
brown Asian children, Like we are already not really set
up for success under this flag in terms of how
we're protected. I don't know how I reconcile that to
reclaim it. And I'm this is my way of asking
(30:31):
you for guidance because I'm so angry. I don't want
to sit under the same fucking flag as those people.
They have lost the plot of what this flag is
supposed to mean and ran absolutely rogue with it. And
it's like we don't. We're not pledging to the same
flag and freedoms of everyone. So it's like, how do
(30:53):
we go from two places that are so far apart
to really connect and feeling that patriotism that like it's
it just means something different to me, And I don't.
I don't want to feel like bad for saying that.
I just like, I think it's possible to criticize your
(31:16):
country while loving it so deeply, and I feel like
I'm in the middle of.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That one thousand percent all of that. One of the
ways that I'm processing it is we didn't plan for,
nor desire the destruction of our country that we're watching,
and we didn't plan for nor desire to be in
a battle for whether our democracy would actually survive. I
(31:46):
think that took us all by surprise in many ways,
maybe it shouldn't. It probably took people of color less
by surprise. I produced this event, Rise Up sing Out
a concert for the First Amendment on Sunday night, which
was so powerful and Lily Gladstone was speaking to the
indigenous people's struggles in history and saying exactly that of like,
(32:12):
this country has been a nightmare of violence and oppression
for us since the beginning, which of course we know
and so but now that we're in this situation, first
thing is we're either going to save.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Our democracy or we're not.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
And part of this reclaiming it's our country that we
have to reclaim. That's the fight we're in. But the
flag is a symbol of our country, and so it's connected.
But then the other part of that, and this is
being discussed sort of across all issues, is that let's
(32:50):
say we do end up saving our democracy, which we
hope we will, and I deep I believe at my core,
yes we are going kiss And then the headline question
then is are we fighting to recreate what we had before,
which was so flawed for so many people, or are
(33:13):
we fighting to create something that is better than what
we had and different from what we had? Are we
going back to the same mistakes or are we fighting
for a new vision of this country that is more
equitable for everyone. And so that's that's why I believe
(33:37):
in and justified the reclaiming the flag is I don't
I'm not reclaiming that old flag.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I'm wanting to reclaim.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
If we're going to fight this hard to save our democracy,
let's create something that was worth savings.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I love that, Bruce, And for you know, I think
it's really interesting because I'm learning so much in real
time just listening. You know, I'm lucky enough to get
to go into queer spaces all the time, and it's
important to me because I get to be led by
(34:14):
people like yourself. I do, and I don't say that lightly,
and as someone who has gone through so much, I mean,
you are a big part of marriage equality being passed
in this country. You were a part. You know, you
were fighting constantly since you were a young boy for
(34:35):
the existence of our community. And you know, I am
just I want to help other people understand how they
can be a part of this activism because a majority
of the people who are listening and watching this podcast
are amongst the community. And I think sometimes so much
(34:56):
of the language and the jargon and all the things
silence us because we're so overwhelmed, especially the misinformation. It's like,
where do you even go? How do you even start?
And I'm curious how we can bring more people in
allyship part of the queer community to help reshape what
(35:17):
this new America is going to look like. How do
I want to leave this world a better place. But
sometimes we need to help people understand how to even
start to get into a place of activism and wanting
to create change. Being on the front lines, How can
(35:38):
we help people activate in a real way when they
don't really know what to do. What would be your suggestion,
as someone who has lived this since such a young boy.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Well, you just gave me a new answer to that question,
which I'm loving, which is listen, yeah. And what I
mean by that is, I mean you were attempting to
compliment me, which I love and appreciate. But what I realized,
and I don't know if I'd thought of it in
(36:12):
this way before, is that the That's the gift I
get from producing these events and planning these marches is
puts me in these spaces where then night after night
after night after night, I get to hear these extraordinary
(36:34):
activists and fail, never fail. I get so much renewal
and inspiration and kills from the different things that I
hear each event, and with Rise Up being an example
of like the sustenance I got from all the different
(36:59):
people hearing what Lily was saying, which I already mentioned,
what Jane Fonda was saying, and de Niro's fiery speech
go It's online, It's everywhere, and Julia Roberts reading Renee
Goods poem and Latasha Brown, the founder Black Voters Matter.
I mean just inspiration after inspiration after inspiration, along with
(37:21):
call to action. So what I'd say to people is
is go to the event, get find the live stream,
watch the podcast, like let the people on whose shoulders
we stand and who are out there talking every single day,
and you'll find it might take a couple but when
(37:45):
you're in, you'll know it. When you're inspired, you'll find
the person of like, oh, now I know what I want.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
To do, and I do.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I will say, I'll get slightly up on my high
horse just to say that what you know, what we're
hearing again and again and again now is okay. I
mean I want to help, which is actually good. We're
moving forward because for a long time it was like
I'm too scared, I'm too overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I don't you know.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
But now more and more people are like, no, I
want to help, Like, yes, I agree, I have to
say the democracy, but I don't know what to do.
I just want someone to tell me what to do,
like just hand it to me people want to hand
it to them on a silver platter. And so two
things about that is number one, Okay, that's not really
how activism works.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And like it. There's no shortage of people.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Who will just say, just do this, just text this number,
just and that's easily findable. You are only one Google
search away if you want someone to tell you the
specific action that you can take today, you are only
one Google question away from getting that information on any
issue that interests you. Pick any question you can think of,
(39:03):
you ask the Google.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It will give you the website.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
But I think that things are interconnected to It's like
you're you're if you are feeling like I wish someone
would just tell me what to do. If you go
to an event or listen to a podcast or a
live stream, you'll find that. And what's good about that
(39:28):
is it won't just be the generic thing. It'll be
the thing that moves you and gives you chills and
gets you excited, and you'll be like, oh, I want
to support that group. I want to take the action
steps to reclaim the flab, or I want to support
Black Voters Matter, or I want to help Indigenous rights,
(39:48):
or I want to help the trans community, or I
want to help register to vote, or I want to
help election protection, or I want to be a poll watcher. Okay,
I just gave you ate things, so like, did any
of those resonate with you? If so, google that and
if not, keep going till you find the one that resonates.
(40:10):
Because the more excited and passionate you are and connected
you feel to the actual thing you.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Are doing, that's the good news. And the bad news.
It's a shit show everywhere.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
There is so much that you can't think of an
issue or an organization or a community that doesn't need
your help desperately. But don't look at it like, oh
my god, I'm over where do I start?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
No, that's the beauty you all. You only have to.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Pick one, and you can pick the one that is
most relevant to you and you can help that one.
And if in what's happening and you know it's the
it's the snowflake on the branch story, which I love
is you know there is that the infinite number of
snowflakes and then one falls and the branch breaks, Like
(40:58):
that's what you you You are not responsible for saving democracy.
You are not responsible for saving the world. You are
not responsible for fixing the issue that were that you're
worried about.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Most.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
You're responsible for just doing the one thing today to
get started, to help one little issue, one little group,
bring your friends, and if everyone does that, that's going
to be enough. That's going to be how we win.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I love that. And for some curious for this younger generation,
who I really think are smarter, wiser, they understand it.
These young kids are going to save us. I really do.
Going to the events, hearing the way they talk. They're
in high school, they're doing walkouts for equal rights and
protecting their queer brothers, sisters, that she's the the the
(41:53):
them's all. They are just so much more advanced than
we were as young kids. But I'm curious what person
makes you hopeful? A young person that makes you hopeful
for our future that maybe some of our listeners can
go and consume their content, listen to them speak, see
(42:15):
the way they show up. Do you have a young
person that you feel like is really moving the needle
right now?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
The well, I will say, I agree with everything you said.
I just want to encourage the young people also though,
to be in person and to be in community. Yes,
and for all of the incredible activism that can happen
on our devices, there's also the human connection that is
(42:45):
necessary and where stuff happens. And you know, for me,
it's actually I'm moved more recently by the young kids
who don't really have the platform. I mean, we had
seven or eight year old Earl speaking on stage Sunday
(43:06):
night who had had friends in Dilly in the detention camp,
and there were actually then she had two girl and
her sister who I met after, who were a little
older preteens who didn't speak, but they were up on
stage who had been in Dylan And so it's you know,
(43:29):
hearing from kids like that who have actually experienced the
herb we're in and are willing to talk about it
really gives me strength and also the feeling of like
nothing I've ever had to deal with compares to that.
So if they can make it through that and still
(43:52):
be invested in the fight to save this country which
has tried to destroy them, tried to kill them, then
certainly I can keep marching.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
I love that. Well. I'm so grateful for the way
you show up and you have really paved the way
a lot for me and taking ownership of listen. If
you have a platform, we have like a duty to
use it the right way right And I think too
often a lot of people have these microphones because they're
(44:25):
easy and accessible, and they're spreading a lot of hate.
And I say this really, I say this often, Bruce.
Sometimes the hard harshest critics are some of the people
within our community. And we just we really really have
to be mindful and meaningful in the way we show
(44:48):
up and what we say and how we connect people.
And you did that through this documentary. You you have
a beautiful way of that intersection of act division, storytelling
real raw people and life experiences, and you put it
in a way that makes us not only reflect on
(45:08):
the stories we haven't lived, but answer those within our own.
And that is the magic you bring to what you do.
And I'm very grateful for that because I have learned
so much by being in your presence, and I'm grateful
you continue to invite me into these rooms because I'm
(45:30):
hungry to do the same thing. I want a life
full of service in the right way, because I want
to leave this place better than I found it. I
want to reclaim this flag. I want it to be
a safe space not just for our community but for everyone.
And it's going to take work, and we have to
be ready for that work. But we have to be
(45:51):
connected and respectful throughout this work. And I just want
you to know I can't speak highly enough about you,
and I'm grateful for our friendship.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Thank you, Ashlyn. It means so much to me. I
feel the same way, and we have such a great
future of activism together. I want to just leave you
in the audience with two things. Number one is the
film Reclaim the Flag is on YouTube, so you can
go watch it. You can also go to Reclaimthflag dot
us and that has all the steps of how you
(46:23):
reclaim the flag. We're really wanting people to display the flag,
fly it if you feel comfortable with that, if you
want to put it with a Pride flag or a
Black Lives Matter flag or any other identifying flag so
people know where you stand.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
We love that.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
But we really want people to record, make some videos
and post about how they feel about the flag and
to challenge friends and invite friends to do that as well.
And then the other thing that I just want to
put into this space is this incredible quote that Jane Fonda,
my latest activist led to the icon and friend has
(47:01):
come up with and has been saying, which I kind
of think does it all? And Jane is saying, I
think we have to become living ambassadors to an irresistible
future where everybody will be seen and respected by their government.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Wow, and there you have it. Bruce, thank you so
much for being on Wide Open, and thank you all
for listening, and we'll see you next week on another episode.
Thanks everyone, Thanks everyone. Wow, what an incredible conversation and
what I took from it most importantly is that patriotsm
(47:40):
isn't always about perfection. It's about participation. It's about believing
a country can become more inclusive, more honest, and more
reflective of the people who call it home. Bruce's documentary
challenges us to ask powerful questions, and the one of
love it all is who gets to feel ownership over
(48:03):
the American story? And maybe the answer is all of us.
As we celebrate Pride Month and we approach America's two
hundred and fiftieth birthday. That's a conversation worth having and
I'm hoping you're willing to have that within your own home,
in your own communities. Bruce. Thank you so much for
joining me, and thank you for having us think differently
(48:27):
about belonging, identity and what it truly means to reclaim
the flag. This is wide open. I'm Ashland Harris and
we will see you guys next week
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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