June 1, 2026 • 44 mins
Do you ever feel like you have to split yourself between who you really are and who society tells you to be? Amy Chozick’s thrilling, vulnerable novel, With Friends Like You, explores that feeling from the perspective of a new mother. A former journalist who profiled figures like Lorena Bobbitt, Stormy Daniels and Elizabeth Holmes, Amy knows that a messy woman can be hard for the public to swallow. Amy and Ashlyn talk about the multiple selves they confront every day and about the new parts of herself Amy confronted while writing her book.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host Ashlyn Harris, and today's conversation is about motherhood, identity, ambition,
female friendship, mental health, and parts of ourself we hide
just to survive. Today is about what happens when motherhood
forces you to confront every version of what you've spent
(00:22):
your life trying to outrun. Motherhood has a way of
cracking women. Wide Open. Let me be the first to
tell you that it exposes identity, loneliness, ambition, fear, rage,
desire all at once. Today's conversation isn't just about a thriller.
It isn't just about a book. It's about the versions
(00:45):
of ourselves we create just to survive, the mass women wear,
the pressure to be good, and the dangerous things that
happen when women lose themselves trying to hold everything together.
Love love, all right, everyone, and welcome back to another
(01:11):
episode of Wide Open. I Am your Host Ashlyn Harris,
and today's guest is a screenwriter, a showrunner, a recovering
journalist Her Words Not Mine, storyteller, cultural observer, and best
selling author with a new book coming out in July,
Which is why we're here. Today called with friends like you, Amy,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much for having me, so happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Oh my gosh, this book was incredible. I cannot wait
for everyone to check it out, just so everyone knows.
You can pre order it now and I highly recommend.
I was lucky enough to be one of the people
who got to read it, and the twist and the
turns and me being a mom and feeling all.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
The things, I was like, this is so good.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
But if you could give us just a little like
summary of what the book is about, so our viewers
and listeners kind of have somewhat of an idea, so
we can dive in and talk about a lot of
beautiful topics that come up and challenging ones, because I
do think holding both at once are really really important,
(02:19):
especially when it comes to motherhood.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So talk to me about it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, tell me well, thank you so much. That means
so much. And of course I want everyone to love
the book. But when a mom tells me that it
spoke to her like that really means a lot. And
I really appreciate the intro and because it is a
departure from my to certainly my journalism, but also you know,
I think it's fired by some of the women I
met as a journalist. It's okay. So the book, I
(02:44):
think of it as a kind of erotic thriller about
a new mom, about female friendship. Really, it's about a
new mom in New York and she's struggling. She's had
a really rough delivery, so she's still recovering physically. She's
really lonely. She's kind of just trying to find her
way this new world of being a new mom. And
in that kind of haze, she becomes fixated on finding
(03:07):
her old best friend, Daisy. They were roommates their freshman year.
They had you know the way this You always have
that friend that you just like instantly bond with. It's
almost more powerful than romantic love. It's like you just
you stay up all night talking, and she felt like
Daisy was the person that really understood or really saw her.
Daisy uh stopped her dad, stopped paying her tuition, she
(03:27):
had to start stripping. Stripping led to sex work and
drugs and porn, and they lost touch. She has not
heard or seen from Daisy in fifteen years, but she
becomes obsessed with finding her. So it's really tracing this
new mom as she goes into this like you know,
as she's as she's doing Mommy and Me and figuring
out new motherhood, she's also going into this world of
porn and trying to find Daisy and she This is
(03:50):
not a spoiler, because that has pretty She finds her,
and she does bring kind of community to her life
and what she'd been craving. But then you end up wondering,
is Daisy the best thing that ever happened to her?
Or is she destroying her whole world?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Where?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Like, where did this story come from? Because it's so
beautifully told, There's so many twists and turns. It keeps
you on the edge of your seat. You don't know
whether to be like, oh this feels so real, I'm laughing,
I'm crying, I'm somewhere in between. What the hell is
going to happen next? Where did all of this come from?
It's so good.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm so blady you said that. Thank you so much. Well.
I feel like I have as a writer. I always
have like a lot of ideas. But it's like if
the idea stays with you for years and you just
can't get it out of your head. And that's the
one I need to write. So this was an idea
I had for many years. I had just given birth,
I was a brand new mom. Stormy Daniels was in
(04:46):
the news for the first you know, this was just
this when the first Stormy Daniel scandal was happening. She
hadn't done a huge interview and I was maybe three
weeks postpartum when Vogue called and a Wintour wants you
to profiles Stormy Daniels. So you don't say no to that.
So the first time I left my baby, I was
in strip clubs in Milwaukee. I was interviewing porn stars.
(05:07):
I was talking to like, you know, I was in
this world and the incongruity of new motherhood where you like,
you definitely don't feel sexy, but at the same time,
there's something about everyone kind of staring at your body,
commenting on your body, how exposed you feel. I felt
like there was just something interesting about those two worlds
(05:28):
and comedics. So she had not done big interviews before,
and the only interview she'd done were in like Penthouse
and Playboy and Men's Magazine. So I ordered all of
these old magazines on eBay, and I had all my
research out, and my husband was like, you were literally
you're interviewing nannies with like a stack of porn magazines
on the coffee table, and I was like, it's research,
(05:49):
I swear. But all of which is to say these
kind of those two worlds I always thought were like
interesting to explore. And then at the same time I
did actually have a roommate very different circum dances, but
she ended up as many women do. As I could
have if I'd had different financial situations. She ended up
in sex work and drugs, and it did not end wells.
(06:10):
She sadly passed away, and I had just been thinking
about how like we were basically like the same girl,
you get like knocked off your path when you're young,
and you go your life goes in dramatically different directions,
and I kept thinking about, like also a way to
kind of rewrite her ending right, like if this, if
it had not gone badly for her, and I can
(06:33):
emotional talking about but so those are kind of those
were the seeds of the inspiration that led to the
Emily and Daisy story.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's beautiful and I imagine becoming a mother changed the
way you see women entirely, because I know, you know,
being a mom has really held a mirror up to me,
and it's this constant Really it's a pressure and a
struggle of both at being the most beautiful thing in
(07:02):
the world and the hardest thing in the world. So
I imagine you becoming a mother and going through postpartum and
going through the changes and having to work and having
to split yourself in so many different halves, Like did
it change this the way you see women entirely and
how you write characters and how you show up?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh, completely completely. I mean it definitely changed my ideas
about like gender roles. Like I'd never really thought, like
my husband just like we both worked and then we
went out for drinks and then we like did hang
out on the weekends and like we just never thought
I think I got spoiled also had a child like later,
so our marriage just settled into like we both do
our own thing. And then it's like, oh shit, I
(07:45):
think as soon as like I was home hardly able
to walk because I had such a rough delivery and
like with the baby, and he's like I and some
of it's not men's fault and fairness, they have to
go back to work. They don't even get fraternityly he
didn't get to so it's like he was back at work.
I was like, oh, wow, you get to go back
to like being the person you were. You haven't changed really,
And I feel like there's something that women. I didn't
(08:08):
realize that, like you really become like a different person.
And there is both like beauty and that I think
I really like the I like the person I am
as a mother now, but there's also a bit of
a mourning of the person you used to be, like
that that girl's gone, you know, And I don't think
I really I really like I was so naive. I
had my first book came out right when I gave birth.
(08:31):
I was like, sure, I can have a book tour
and a baby, and I just thought it was going
to be like I was going to be my same
self doing myn of course I'd need childcare and help
and it would be busier. But I didn't realize it
actually like completely changed, like my priorities, the way I
see the way completely, the way I interview women and
see the world, and and also and also just like yeah,
(08:52):
I was just I didn't realize that like that person's
actually gone and you're this new person. I don't know
if you felt this after you had children. But I
also had this weird surge. This is kind of the
Emily obsession. I had this weird surge of creativity, Like
I started writing like screenplays when I was like like
when they were bad. I mean I wasn't even coherent.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
But I had a I highly doubt that.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, now they were real bad. But I had this
weird surge of like, I want to go back to writing,
because I had studied poetry in college and then you know,
became a journalist, and I like, I want to go
back to writing poetry. I want to read great way,
I want to go back. I want to read Sylvia
Plath again now that I'm like, I wanted to read
female writers again again for the prism of being a mother.
So anyway, yeah, I changed everything, and I don't think
(09:37):
I anticipated.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That it's so true.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And also what I love so much is because you know,
it's it's so interesting in the book because you really
feel that motherhood can be both beautiful and terrifying at
the exact same time. But I think, more importantly, why
do you think women still feel the to pretend they're okay.
(10:02):
I think that's the biggest thing. I think, Like, why
are mothers just expected to struggle silently? Like I think
there's just such a weird complexity of just saying, like,
holy shit, this is the best thing that's ever happened
to me. And it's really fucking hard and it changes
a lot, and it's like, why can't we just say
(10:23):
the hard thing out loud?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Because what I do know is social media has.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Made mommy simultaneously more connected but so much more isolating.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yes, yes, do.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You know what I mean? And I don't know if
you feel that, but it was like, really interesting the
way you wrote this book, because I did feel the
connection of that that, Like I like I can shape
shift like a motherfucker. Like that is being a mom.
It's like, but then I want to pretend like I
have it all together and I have all this knowledge,
and like I don't.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I really don't.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I don't have it all figured, and I make mistakes
and I'm not perfect and I'm constantly trying to be
the best version of myself creatively and curiosity and all
these things to be better for my kids. But like
I get the split between Emily and Daisy, because I
feel it a lot, and I feel shame because women
(11:21):
like me can't talk about it.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Did you feel a lot of this as well yourself,
going through motherhood and splitting yourself into all of these
different types of people you wanted to be and other
people wanted you to be.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think so for sure. I mean I think ever
we all do. And I think it's that it's that struggle.
Like for Emily, it's like the only way out is
through right, Like she has to go through this like
insane process in the book because she has to find
the person that is both of those things, the dark,
edgy person and the and the bright I can sing
(11:57):
to my and that's okay, Like you don't have to.
Who's one? I mean, your point about isolation is so true.
You read all these statistics about how people aren't young,
women aren't having kids, and the population is falling, and
I mean places like Japan, it's like the population is
dying out, and it's like it's not because we're selfish,
it's because motherhood is impossible, Like you've made it impossible.
(12:19):
And I think that's an underlying thing in the book,
both like I created that fun like the funny Juju
bean mom app. But it's like, yeah, sure, we have
all these apps to connect. We don't have a village.
We don't have multi generational neighbors taking our kids running
around together. Like this is how for jenn for human history,
this is how babies were raised, and now they're not.
(12:40):
And it's like, there's a reason why people aren't having
kids and it's not selfishness, it's that they make it impossible,
you know. And then it's like then, of course you've
got social media with like like I don't like you know,
you see it in New York. There's like the mom
at brunch and there's the and sometimes they see the
nanny holding the ring light. You're like, it's all a
facade and it's all it's all actually more isolating you
(13:01):
kind of you kind of have a false sense of
a community when it's not. But it's like you need
that and women have always had that and now we don't.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment. After
this brief message from our sponsors. I really resonate with
what you're saying. And the characters is Emily and Daisy
almost feel like they have a war happening inside them
that many women also have going on. So I'm curious
(13:31):
if you think you know women, like do you think
every woman has an Emily and has a daisy inside them?
And we just aren't willing to talk about it completely.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I feel like we're kind of seeing it in
the next stage of womanhood, Like there's all these stories
about like perimenopause and she just went crazy and ghosted
her family, or like I love Miranda July, I loved
all fours and that's like sort of the next stage.
But You're right, it starts when you have a kid
and you start to like slowly, slowly bury that other
person that like kind of wild or spontaneous or you
(14:07):
know person. You bury that person so far in the
need of of fulfilling everyone else's expectations of you or
everyone else's needs to the point that I do think
there's like there's probably a sequel to this in like
the minimal, yeah, very menopausal phase when it's just like
it like you go a little nuts, like you go,
you know, you can't always, you can't do that forever.
(14:30):
So I definitely feel like, I mean, I am lucky
because I have writing as an outlet, but I have
I've always had a very loud inner voice. And I
do feel like all of the moms, hopefully in the book,
like go on like many journeys of what Emily is
going through. Like this community that she created allows all
of the women to sort of break out of the
(14:50):
you know, there's like the super up tight tiger mom
and like they all sort of are able to let
go in their own in their own ways. I mean,
I want to think that everybody everybody has that, like
I do too, Like perfect moms, You're like, oh, she's
getting crack or she hasset.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well yeah, what are the skeletons in that thing? I
love it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Well, it's interesting because Daisy represents this like sexuality and
chaos and power and survival, and Emily is more of
the control and the motherhood and the structure. And I'm
curious if you think, because you did such a great
job of really layering these characters, but I think in
real life society, like do you think society allows women
(15:35):
to be layered and this type of context.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Like I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I feel like we have to have it all figured out.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh no, I mean, we don't.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Get that we don't understand it at all. I mean,
it's interesting in Hollywood. I'm always writing screen scripts and
I get the likable protagonist note. It's like you don't
somebody give the tony soprano the likable note. You have
the likeability women are always getting though, like we really
want to root for her, you know, And I feel
like that's the likability no. I mean even I was
(16:07):
so liberated to write Emily because like, she's complicated. You're
not gonna like every decision she makes, but hopefully. But
I feel like this is why in journalism, I'm always
drawn to covering these women who are like scrutinized in
the media and hugely controversial and just I just don't
think anything is black and white, you know, and I
(16:27):
think everything is shades of gray, and it's you're gonna say, like,
I mean, this was a story that was that stayed
with me. But I spent a lot of time with
Loraina Bobbitt. If you remember in the night like the
nineties scandal that she cut her husband. All we knew
is she cut her husband's penis off, and she was
like this horrible monster and she became sort of like
the symbol of like feminism gone awry. You know, I
(16:48):
got to know this woman. He had been raping her
in Virginia. Marital rape was not a crime in the nineties,
and she was an immigrant from Ecuador. He threatened to
have her to it if she ever left him. Years
of marital rape. She would call the police. They said, sorry,
you're married. And I'm not saying like cutting off your
(17:10):
husband's member is a good thing to do. I'm just saying, like,
I think every story, every woman has layers, and if
you want to just put someone just I mean, this
is controversial. I shouldn't even bring her up because she's
so controversial. But I profile Elizabeth Holmes. Okay, yeah, she's
in prison. She did crimes. She should be in prison.
But at the same time, I don't think people realize
(17:32):
that she was raped at Stanford. There are police reports.
I read she was not lying about that. Sunny Balbani
was thirty nine, she was nineteen. He said, you're a genius,
drop out of school. I'll help you start your company.
I'll keep you safe. She moved in with him. There
are these notes are in public record. She would he said,
you have to like stop talking like a little girl.
(17:54):
Like you have to sleep, you can only sleep four
hours a good startup personally sleep, you have to have
strict being a diet. I'm not blaming I'm not totally
blaming him. She completely deserves responsibility. All I'm saying is
every single story that we decide we know has layers,
you know, and it has shades of gray, and there
is context that we're missing because we love to just
(18:15):
say that woman's a witch. I mean, this goes back
to like the Salem, which I mean it goes back
to the dawn of time. It's like that woman is
a witch, and it's it's actually something that you always
hear that woman, you know, always. And so one of
the things that has been controversial but also like to me,
very fulfilling is getting to know the layers of of
(18:37):
of the women that I've covered. And then that was
something that was really gratifying to kind of work into
both Emily and Daisy, like we're not all one thing.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, exactly, And it's so true because we are so
forced into categories. It's like not even just layers, it's categories.
It's like, oh, she's either the bitch or the good
mom or the bad mom, the sexy, the pure, this
stayble all the broke in.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
It's always a fucking label.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And I'm like, we can hold a lot of shit
at the same time, so let me be really clear.
And we're also human. We're evolving and like figuring life
out as it's moving so fast. But what parts of
yourself did you confront while writing this book, if any.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
No I did. I mean, it's weird. It was a
really intense experience writing a book, I mean, writing a novel,
because I had to just like go to a magical
place where a novel is, you know, it's a kind
of a lonely interest. But at the same time, it
was like my husband come buy and me like how
the writing on like shit got real dark for data
frimily daisy, you know. But I did things came up
(19:43):
about myself that I didn't know. I mean, I didn't
know how nostalgic I was for New York. And we
moved to LA about four years ago, and I, you know,
I want I set this book in New York, and
I felt like I was living in New York again
writing the book. I mean, even though I think I
make clear how hard it is to write, have a baby,
in New York. I did, I did miss it, and
I also and yeah, so I think that came out.
(20:05):
I think the loneliness, I think the marriage. I also
I think I don't know if you notice this in
the book, but I think a lot of like postpartum books,
the husband's like a monster or like he's just completely
neglectful and like horrible. And I don't think that. I didn't.
I don't. Roman is a good dat, Like, he's a
good person, he's a good house. He's trying. He just
cannot understand, like he cannot understand what she went through physically,
(20:28):
he cannot understand, you know. And he's also like under
a lot of stress to like be the provider and
not get laid off. So that so so I wanted
to also portray the marriage just in a way that
felt not like not like what I usually kind of
see or see portrayed, just like he's not a monster,
(20:48):
he's trying.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
But I think you nail it here because there is
a lot, you know, when you talk about postpartum, you
talk about the complexities that come with the dangers and
the emotional dangers of having a child, and a lot
of people don't want to talk about it, and there
is a massive mental health conversation within you know, this book,
(21:12):
and you do it so raw and real that, like,
I do think women emotionally, emotionally are splitting themselves every
day just to survive this modern life. And then we're
told to shut the fuck up and be happy and
grateful for what we have and like, how lucky are
we that we get this life? Meanwhile they're like, you know,
(21:34):
you get a few weeks if you're lucky, and you
need to get your ass back to work.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
And it's it's just like such such.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
A hamster wheel, and there's so much we're still not
having an honest conversation about when it comes to mental
health and women who give you know, birth and what
that looks like and the support system that goes behind it.
What I love is the book does explore how women
can save each other but also how they can destroy
(22:02):
each other. Absolutely, truthfully, absolutely it does. And I'm curious, well,
why you think so many female relationships carry so much
emotional intensity, because that's what I find.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's such a good question. It's so funny because it's
like men don't do this, they don't have these intense
friendships and then oh she mad at me? Did she
ghost me? Nope, men do. It's so simple. It's like
my husband has a fucking WhatsApp with friends from high school.
It's like it's just very simple. You're right. Women bring
so much drama. For lack of a better word, I
(22:38):
don't know. I mean, part of it I think is beautiful, right,
because we pour our whole hearts and souls into these
relationships and we feel so intensely. You know, one of
the things I love writing and my work is sisters
because I feel like my sister could call me a content.
Then we're sharing nachos five minutes later, like nothing happened.
It's like there's no relationship like it, right, And I
(23:01):
feel like female friendship is the same sort of way.
It's just like a super intense friendship and it burns.
We burn hard, man, and then then when it goes out,
it's dark. It's like you're in a really dark place.
I mean sometimes I feel like, you know, in a
romantic relationship, there's usually closure he broke up with you
or whatever, she broke up with you, And I feel
(23:22):
like in a female friendship, like Daisy just disappeared when
they were in college. There's no closure. It's a weird
sort of thing, but yeah, I don't you're really tapped
into it. It's so true.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So it but it's also because you know what I do,
what I do respect, and what I do know about
you just from following your journey is like you've spent
years covering powerful people on high pressure environments. It's a
really interesting space to live in and you have to
have a type of excellence constantly to meet the moment,
(23:59):
right and whether that's you know, you've already discussed a
few very very high profile people that you've had to
share and tell stories and very very big publications. There's
a lot of pressure that comes with that, especially.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Getting it wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Do you do you think women, because we're kind of
touching on this, I think womanhood in I think womanhood generally,
I think is a performance I do, and I think
we're conditioned to shape shift in order to survive ambitious spaces.
I'm curious if you would agree with that as someone
who's lived multiple sides of it, and it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, no, I think you have to. I think you
immediately kind of walk into a room and have to assess,
like what, who am I in this room?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I mean there were times when I walked into a
room with you know, executive politicians or executives, and you
immediately sort of feel yourself putting on this other, you know,
kind of personality and to and honestly, I don't know
if you felt like this when you were, you know, competing,
but it's like you almost can forget who you really are.
(25:07):
You know, you do very.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Good at it. You do that so much, very good
at it.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yes, and you're competing, and you're just like and you're
kind of like, yeah, you almost forget who you are.
And then you have a baby and you have time
home with this little creature that you have to keep alive.
And suddenly and your friends and your friends or your
like colleagues are all they're all still running around doing
their ambitious thing. And I just think you have this
like and there's this hormonal rush and you just have
(25:34):
this all this time to be like, wait, who the
fuck am I? Like, I don't I don't even know
who I am? Where'd I go?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
There's I think there's a there's a there's a I'm writing.
I'm adapting this to film, too, so I'm not sure
if it was in the book, but there's definitely something
in the in the screenplay where Emily like looks in
the mirror and her way out the door and is like,
who's that? You know? You see this kind of disheveled
mom and you're like, wait, I don't recognize her.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Oh it's such it's so good, and you know what
I will say because it's so true with Emily. But
what I found most fascinating in the book and in
your writing is you refuse to make Daisy a victim.
She's fucking complicated, she's powerful, she's messy, she's sexual, she's strategic,
she's all the things. Why was it so important for
(26:17):
you to write a female desire without ant like without
an apology?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Which I mean, this was something I have to give
credit to Stormy Daniels. Like, Stormy Daniels knows who the
fuck she is, and she's a powerful She's a very
powerful woman. She's one of the, if not the first,
woman to direct her own adult films, to own her
own narrative. Like I am sure if she had chosen
a different past, she would have been a very prominent director.
Like she's she's a badass, right, so, and one of
(26:43):
the things I don't think she liked me, and she
wasn't like like like like one of the things that
bothered her that I felt was very important. And I
talked to a lot of sex workers for that and
this it's like they hate like liberal who feel sorry
for them, like she could like like, oh, it's like
(27:04):
I'm sorry you have to do that. It's like, this
is what I chose. I'm smart, I'm empowered, this is
what I chose. I And so I didn't ever want
Daisy to be like it's so And I think Emily was,
like there's this tension between because Emily like kind of
doesn't want to ask because she doesn't want to like,
you know, exploit her. But I do think Emily is
coming at it as a little like it's so sad
(27:26):
she had to drop out of college and start stripping,
and like Daisy's like, yo, I'm living in a fucking penthouse.
Like yeah, like I've traveled the world, I've had an
interesting life, Like did I have to have some orgies that, like,
you know, But I just wanted Daisy to like she
carved an interesting life for herself out of the out
of the situation that she had, and I think you
(27:47):
have to like really respect that, you know. And I
think that's sort of a journey for Emily because she's
kind of like like feels like she, you know, was
some sad like got it, got into this life she
didn't want, and she's like, no, she's actually actually the
other way around, Like Emily's in this sad life that
she didn't want. You know, she wanted to be a
(28:07):
great writer and she's writing grants and like a cubicle
in midtown and it's the it's kind of the opposite,
like she sold out. So I definitely wanted to I'm
so glad that that spoke to you because I definitely
didn't want it, Daisy to seem like the sad you know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well yeah, because it feels like the book also explores
sex work as a nuance instead of a judgment, and
I think that's important in itself. And I'm curious if, like,
what did you hope the conversations would spark writing this
type of character, Like do you think women are allowed
to have redemption after renovation, like reinventing themselves, Like I
(28:48):
think for so especially, we live in that cancel culture
where it's like you get one thing fucking wrong and
people are like forever bringing it up. Yes, yes, and
I'm just like, it's not that. It's like it's not
that easy. Like people are learning and discovering and shedding
skins and all of these things that make us beautifully human.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I'll be back in just a moment after this brief
message from our sponsors. What do you think women are
most afraid of that people will discover about them through
this through writing this book.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I mean, I think there's always the like bad mom,
you know, it's like that's so, that's so. I was
so conscious to me in the book to like make
it clear that Emily loves her baby. But it's like
it's like she does love for baby, of course. But
I think we're so afraid of being labeled that, you know,
(29:46):
or looking like that early God forbid you should be
sexual when you have a new baby. It's like you
should just be this, you know, milk bar for your
for your baby or not just or have desires forget
if they're sexual, even if they're and even if they're professional.
It's like it's like God forbid, those desires should should
still exist, you know, when you have this little person
(30:07):
to keep, to keep alive, and so I think that I, yeah,
I did. I definitely did go into writing Emily thinking
I have to maintain that she was a good mom.
And then I would stop myself and be like, why
do I have this like that I need to write
her honest? Of course she's of course she loves her,
Like why do I have to keep reminding reminding readers?
(30:29):
We can hold these two thoughts right Like, she's feeling
like we should be able to She's feeling like something's
really missing in her life, and she's also like hugely
grateful and loves her baby. You know. True. But it's yeah,
it's like the bad mom. It's so interesting too, the
cancel culture things. It's like Michael Jackson. There's the biggest
movie right now is about Michael Jackson. It's like women
(30:50):
in particular, I think we have a hard time like like,
let's shake this off and try to a lot of
canceled men are just like I'm back, like they felt
like yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
So true.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And I'm curious personally, what scares you more, losing yourself
or being fully seen m Because I do think we
toggle a little bit in this book and I know this.
I'm this is a personal question, but I am curious
because it is a complex thing I think we all
(31:21):
always struggle with as women.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, that's so interesting. I think I think I've sort
of accepted being misunderstood and it's frustrating, but it's not
I don't know if we can really do it at
this point, I don't know what I can do, what
else I could do about it, Like, I don't know,
how about you? How do you feel?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I asked the question because I struggle with it.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I know clearly what it's like to.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Lose myself, how to abandon myself, how to shape shift
and not canize the person the reflection in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So it's like, but.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Then when you try to live your truth and you're
trying to be fully seen, it comes with a lot
of criticism. So it's almost your damn it. If you
do interesting, you're damned. If you're done, you don't.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, And it's I mean.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
This is something covering Hillary Clinton. It's like she developed
protective walls that made the real Hillary such an enigma
that we didn't see her or know who she really was.
And and I think it's like, but it's so interesting
that you say that, because it's like it's a fence mechanism.
If you if you know the real me, you might
(32:38):
like it's it's vulnerable. It's really fucking vulnerable. Yeah, And
that's why I'm so touched that you love the book,
because it's really vulnerable to put yourself out there, whether
it's like competing as an athlete or whatever you're doing.
If you put yourself out there, you're you're vulnerable. If
you build walls and you pretend to be someone else,
it feels almost like safer. It's like you don't you're
(32:58):
not judging me, you're judging this PERSONA I put out
correct that ends up backfiring too. People will be like,
she's not authentic, you know, it just feels fake. So
I don't know what the answer is. I had a
sticky note when I wrote this book that you're reminding
me of that said, what would you write if you
weren't afraid?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Oh my gosh, Because.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I feel like if you are worried about how someone's
gonna interpret what you're writing, it will never be honest
and it will never be real. And it's like like
I almost feel like I have to be like embarrassed.
I'm embarrassed to show someone. If I'm not embarrassed to
show my editor or my agent the draft, then I
(33:42):
didn't go to the place I should have gone to.
Like I usually, it's kind of scared in a way.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I love that you said that, because I think too
often we do try to play it safe because of fear,
and we take shortcuts because.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Of that fear.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
And it's it's a beautiful thing you just said, because
we have to do the brave thing and the hard
thing to get on the other side of the possibility.
What's possible on the other side of that, And that's
how you create change. That's the sweet spot of growth.
That's where I want to live. That's where I think
people like you and I want to live. So I
(34:18):
love that you said that, and it's so important. And
I'm really curious though. I got to ask this. You
have a quote it says, very early in my life,
it was too late. It was already too late when
I was eighteen.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Can you talk to me about that?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
And I'm just curious because it's several times throughout the book,
and why did you do that?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well? That is inspired by Marguerite Duros's novel The Lover,
which is a book that I read over and over
again because it's so so beautiful. It probably doesn't pass
the current piece. It's not like Lolita because a woman
wrote it, but it is like Lalita, and that a
very young woman is very very beautiful, a young girl,
(35:03):
you know, and she has all a lover and and
she sort of even as she is kind of doted
on and beloved, she knows that it's it won't it's
not going to last. And she's like writing from this
very vulnerable place of of kind of feeling like her
life is passing, has passed her up even when she
(35:25):
was she was very very young. And I feel like
that to me, really spoke to to Daisy. I think
that she, yeah, very early in life, I knew that
it was too late. And it's interesting because I feel
like the flip side of Daisy feeling like that. And
of course we've talked about how she didn't, you know,
(35:46):
she wasn't forcing this life. She wasn't a victim, but
she did. I think feel like and I think this
Emily felt this way too. All of these dreams that
they had, We're going to move to Paris. I'm going
to be a poet. I'm going to be a great artist.
It's like, very very early in life, if they realized
that wasn't going to work out, you know. And I
think a lot of people feel that way, and I
think particularly a lot of people feel that way who
(36:08):
do not have rich parents, don't have a trustpond, like
you feel like, well, that dream is never that's never
going to be, that's never going to work out. So
I think there's on one hand, there's the very early
in life I thought it was too late. And there's
another quote in the book that is it's never too
late to be what you might have been. And so
I feel like Emily is toggling between these two ideas. Right,
(36:31):
it was too late for me, I'm going to move
to New York and be a poet. I mean I
personally wanted to move to New York to be a poet.
I would give a journalist because I'm like, I gotta
pay the rent. So so in one hand, Emily thinks
this life is too late, and the other I think
I think she's feeling like, why why is it too late?
Like I just had a baby, don't I don't know
who I am anymore. Why can't this be the chance
(36:52):
for me to make it almost like a new like
a new start for her.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Really, Oh that's so powerful, aman. My last question to
really bring it home and tie everything together is like,
as a woman now in her forties raising two children,
I've learned a lot in this journey of life. I've
(37:20):
learned to overly apologize and I'm unlearning that in real time.
And it's a conscious effort and choice every day. And
what's something women need to stop apologizing for? In your opinion?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Oh my god, I can't be that's so interesting. I
play tennis. The number of times I say sorry, sorry, sorry,
Even when I get a good shot, I feel bad
and I say sorry. It's so crazy. I'm surprised you
do that.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I do, I do, And I notice, yeah, And I
noticed my five year old daughter. Not because it's a
conscious effort, because I'm I know that they are absorbing
and sucking up every bit of who I am and
watching and my daughter, who's five, says it often, and
(38:14):
I now have constantly said, it's okay, sweetie, you don't
have to you don't have to apologize because accidents happen,
and then we always are like, did we learn from
this or did we you know? But I do find
it's an inherent thing that women always feel the need
to apologize for everything. And I raise my hand, I'm
(38:37):
it is a default setting that I carry with me
that I am trying to unlearn. And some a woman
like yourself who has been in the rooms with some
incredible people and characters, and the way you are so
curious and the questions you ask. And you are a
fantastic journalist, and you're a fantastic writer, and you're making
(39:00):
incredible storytelling content. But like, there is a part of
us that constantly feels this of falling into line and
taking accountability and ownership when it's not ours, and shrinking
ourselves and making us a little more absorbable or a
little more smaller in a room so we don't take
(39:20):
up too much oxygen and air. But I do think
it's really important because there's a lot of you know,
people who are listening and watching this who probably feel
that inside as well. And I just am curious, like,
what do we need to stop apologizing for?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
It's a really really good question. What is it with
our instinct to apologize? I mean, I feel like we
should stop apologizing about you know, so many things. I
mean the motherhood thing in particular, like I'm sorry, yes,
I'm giving him cheetos. I know you don't approve like
you know, everything from like the snacks on the playground
(40:01):
to program to like, you know, my programming. My kid
doesn't want to play bas Baseball's honest thing. I'm not
gonna apologize. We're just getting out, you know, Like I
feel like there's so there's so much I got. I
could go through the through the list, and there's funny.
This is sort of another character that I got to
know in my journey. But when I first moved to
(40:22):
New York, I became really good friends with Marty Reesman,
who was the ping pong hustler who inspired Marty Supreme.
He was a seventy five year old ping pong hustler
when I met him, and I was like twenty two
and I just moved to New York, and first we
met and became like we would like go around and
go to restaurants and I'd watch him play ping pong.
But I wrote a column recently about him because the
movie reminded me of my friendship, and he taught me
(40:45):
how to stop apologizing and start throwing elbows at the
Barney's warehouse sale. I was like, it was and it
seems trivial, like a trivial thing, but actually I didn't
know how to dress. I needed someone to and I
just remember going and be like, I, that's my cardigan.
And it was like the first time where I like,
it wasn't just about the clothes. It was about me
(41:06):
becoming the person who could get a job in journalism
in New York. I was wearing my clothes from Texas.
It wasn't gonna work, you know, Like I needed to
dress the part. And I think he really, like some
of these characters that I've met have inspired me to
just like stop apologizing and like go fucking get it,
like go get it, you know, and I do. I
(41:27):
do think it's I still do it all all the time.
But I'm getting I'm getting better, you know, like like
you know, you see you see criticism online and you
want to be like, no, that's not what I meant,
And I'm like, you know what I misunderstood. It's fine.
They'll move on to criticizing someone else tomorrow. Like so
I'm getting a little bit, don't you think having kids
also helps you with that, Like, I feel like, such,
(41:49):
there's such beauty when you can just like shut your phone,
shut your laptop, and you're like, you know what, he
doesn't care what someone's saying about me, or what's the
house that this? You know that this article is misunderstood
or this or that. It's like you're just kind of
I feel like you can be so present and childlike
with kids, and it's it's like a beautiful thing. But
(42:10):
now I should apologize for talking too much.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
No, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I do not apologizing.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
No, we're not, because maybe the real I say this.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And I really want to close this out because I
think it's important, and I think maybe the real work
of becoming isn't really choosing between the versions of ourself.
It's actually learning how to hold them all with honesty
and truth. And I think that's the part of shape
shifting and performative aspects as women. We become so good at,
(42:40):
but the consequences are real and you lose yourself in
the process. So I do think, you know, we have
a lot of versions and layers and complexities of our
personalities and who we once were and shutting that to
who we are becoming, and you know, motherhood is very hard,
and I think learning how to hold all of these
(43:01):
truths and these versions of ourself is maybe the real
thing that sets us free.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I think that's beautiful. I love that. I love that,
and it could be a really rough process to get there,
you know, as only goes through. But as we said,
the only way out is that if you're through and
you're right, and ideally you come out the other end
and you're and you're both of that, you're you're like
that balance of both of those people, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Well, I'm so excited for you. Please every want This
is so fun. Thank you so much for coming. I
know this book is going to crush like all of
them that you that you've been writing in the past,
and I look forward to seeing more, more shows and
more movies out there with your name on it.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I'd love to keep you posted when I'm in New
York too.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Please events, I would love that. All right, everyone much,
Thank you so much for being on. Thank you for
tuning in to another episode of Wide Open, and we'll
see you next week. Amy, Thank you so much for
coming on. This conversation felt less like talking about a
thriller and more like unpacking the complexity of being a
woman in today's world. Motherhood, ambition, identity, friendship, survival, all
(44:09):
of it. Amy's new book, With Friends Like You, comes
out this July. Pre Order it online now, and if
you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe, follow, and
leave a review. I'm Ashland Harris and this is wide open.
We'll see you next week.
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.
I'm your host Ashlyn Harris, and today's conversation is about motherhood, identity, ambition,
female friendship, mental health, and parts of ourself we hide
just to survive. Today is about what happens when motherhood
forces you to confront every version of what you've spent
(00:22):
your life trying to outrun. Motherhood has a way of
cracking women. Wide Open. Let me be the first to
tell you that it exposes identity, loneliness, ambition, fear, rage,
desire all at once. Today's conversation isn't just about a thriller.
It isn't just about a book. It's about the versions
(00:45):
of ourselves we create just to survive, the mass women wear,
the pressure to be good, and the dangerous things that
happen when women lose themselves trying to hold everything together.
Love love, all right, everyone, and welcome back to another
(01:11):
episode of Wide Open. I Am your Host Ashlyn Harris,
and today's guest is a screenwriter, a showrunner, a recovering
journalist Her Words Not Mine, storyteller, cultural observer, and best
selling author with a new book coming out in July,
Which is why we're here. Today called with friends like you, Amy,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much for having me, so happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Oh my gosh, this book was incredible. I cannot wait
for everyone to check it out, just so everyone knows.
You can pre order it now and I highly recommend.
I was lucky enough to be one of the people
who got to read it, and the twist and the
turns and me being a mom and feeling all.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
The things, I was like, this is so good.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
But if you could give us just a little like
summary of what the book is about, so our viewers
and listeners kind of have somewhat of an idea, so
we can dive in and talk about a lot of
beautiful topics that come up and challenging ones, because I
do think holding both at once are really really important,
(02:19):
especially when it comes to motherhood.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So talk to me about it.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, tell me well, thank you so much. That means
so much. And of course I want everyone to love
the book. But when a mom tells me that it
spoke to her like that really means a lot. And
I really appreciate the intro and because it is a
departure from my to certainly my journalism, but also you know,
I think it's fired by some of the women I
met as a journalist. It's okay. So the book, I
(02:44):
think of it as a kind of erotic thriller about
a new mom, about female friendship. Really, it's about a
new mom in New York and she's struggling. She's had
a really rough delivery, so she's still recovering physically. She's
really lonely. She's kind of just trying to find her
way this new world of being a new mom. And
in that kind of haze, she becomes fixated on finding
(03:07):
her old best friend, Daisy. They were roommates their freshman year.
They had you know the way this You always have
that friend that you just like instantly bond with. It's
almost more powerful than romantic love. It's like you just
you stay up all night talking, and she felt like
Daisy was the person that really understood or really saw her.
Daisy uh stopped her dad, stopped paying her tuition, she
(03:27):
had to start stripping. Stripping led to sex work and
drugs and porn, and they lost touch. She has not
heard or seen from Daisy in fifteen years, but she
becomes obsessed with finding her. So it's really tracing this
new mom as she goes into this like you know,
as she's as she's doing Mommy and Me and figuring
out new motherhood, she's also going into this world of
porn and trying to find Daisy and she This is
(03:50):
not a spoiler, because that has pretty She finds her,
and she does bring kind of community to her life
and what she'd been craving. But then you end up wondering,
is Daisy the best thing that ever happened to her?
Or is she destroying her whole world?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Where?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Like, where did this story come from? Because it's so
beautifully told, There's so many twists and turns. It keeps
you on the edge of your seat. You don't know
whether to be like, oh this feels so real, I'm laughing,
I'm crying, I'm somewhere in between. What the hell is
going to happen next? Where did all of this come from?
It's so good.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm so blady you said that. Thank you so much. Well.
I feel like I have as a writer. I always
have like a lot of ideas. But it's like if
the idea stays with you for years and you just
can't get it out of your head. And that's the
one I need to write. So this was an idea
I had for many years. I had just given birth,
I was a brand new mom. Stormy Daniels was in
(04:46):
the news for the first you know, this was just
this when the first Stormy Daniel scandal was happening. She
hadn't done a huge interview and I was maybe three
weeks postpartum when Vogue called and a Wintour wants you
to profiles Stormy Daniels. So you don't say no to that.
So the first time I left my baby, I was
in strip clubs in Milwaukee. I was interviewing porn stars.
(05:07):
I was talking to like, you know, I was in
this world and the incongruity of new motherhood where you like,
you definitely don't feel sexy, but at the same time,
there's something about everyone kind of staring at your body,
commenting on your body, how exposed you feel. I felt
like there was just something interesting about those two worlds
(05:28):
and comedics. So she had not done big interviews before,
and the only interview she'd done were in like Penthouse
and Playboy and Men's Magazine. So I ordered all of
these old magazines on eBay, and I had all my
research out, and my husband was like, you were literally
you're interviewing nannies with like a stack of porn magazines
on the coffee table, and I was like, it's research,
(05:49):
I swear. But all of which is to say these
kind of those two worlds I always thought were like
interesting to explore. And then at the same time I
did actually have a roommate very different circum dances, but
she ended up as many women do. As I could
have if I'd had different financial situations. She ended up
in sex work and drugs, and it did not end wells.
(06:10):
She sadly passed away, and I had just been thinking
about how like we were basically like the same girl,
you get like knocked off your path when you're young,
and you go your life goes in dramatically different directions,
and I kept thinking about, like also a way to
kind of rewrite her ending right, like if this, if
it had not gone badly for her, and I can
(06:33):
emotional talking about but so those are kind of those
were the seeds of the inspiration that led to the
Emily and Daisy story.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
It's beautiful and I imagine becoming a mother changed the
way you see women entirely, because I know, you know,
being a mom has really held a mirror up to me,
and it's this constant Really it's a pressure and a
struggle of both at being the most beautiful thing in
(07:02):
the world and the hardest thing in the world. So
I imagine you becoming a mother and going through postpartum and
going through the changes and having to work and having
to split yourself in so many different halves, Like did
it change this the way you see women entirely and
how you write characters and how you show up?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Oh, completely completely. I mean it definitely changed my ideas
about like gender roles. Like I'd never really thought, like
my husband just like we both worked and then we
went out for drinks and then we like did hang
out on the weekends and like we just never thought
I think I got spoiled also had a child like later,
so our marriage just settled into like we both do
our own thing. And then it's like, oh shit, I
(07:45):
think as soon as like I was home hardly able
to walk because I had such a rough delivery and
like with the baby, and he's like I and some
of it's not men's fault and fairness, they have to
go back to work. They don't even get fraternityly he
didn't get to so it's like he was back at work.
I was like, oh, wow, you get to go back
to like being the person you were. You haven't changed really,
And I feel like there's something that women. I didn't
(08:08):
realize that, like you really become like a different person.
And there is both like beauty and that I think
I really like the I like the person I am
as a mother now, but there's also a bit of
a mourning of the person you used to be, like
that that girl's gone, you know, And I don't think
I really I really like I was so naive. I
had my first book came out right when I gave birth.
(08:31):
I was like, sure, I can have a book tour
and a baby, and I just thought it was going
to be like I was going to be my same
self doing myn of course I'd need childcare and help
and it would be busier. But I didn't realize it
actually like completely changed, like my priorities, the way I
see the way completely, the way I interview women and
see the world, and and also and also just like yeah,
(08:52):
I was just I didn't realize that like that person's
actually gone and you're this new person. I don't know
if you felt this after you had children. But I
also had this weird surge. This is kind of the
Emily obsession. I had this weird surge of creativity, Like
I started writing like screenplays when I was like like
when they were bad. I mean I wasn't even coherent.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
But I had a I highly doubt that.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, now they were real bad. But I had this
weird surge of like, I want to go back to writing,
because I had studied poetry in college and then you know,
became a journalist, and I like, I want to go
back to writing poetry. I want to read great way,
I want to go back. I want to read Sylvia
Plath again now that I'm like, I wanted to read
female writers again again for the prism of being a mother.
So anyway, yeah, I changed everything, and I don't think
(09:37):
I anticipated.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That it's so true.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And also what I love so much is because you know,
it's it's so interesting in the book because you really
feel that motherhood can be both beautiful and terrifying at
the exact same time. But I think, more importantly, why
do you think women still feel the to pretend they're okay.
(10:02):
I think that's the biggest thing. I think, Like, why
are mothers just expected to struggle silently? Like I think
there's just such a weird complexity of just saying, like,
holy shit, this is the best thing that's ever happened
to me. And it's really fucking hard and it changes
a lot, and it's like, why can't we just say
(10:23):
the hard thing out loud?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Because what I do know is social media has.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Made mommy simultaneously more connected but so much more isolating.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yes, yes, do.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
You know what I mean? And I don't know if
you feel that, but it was like, really interesting the
way you wrote this book, because I did feel the
connection of that that, Like I like I can shape
shift like a motherfucker. Like that is being a mom.
It's like, but then I want to pretend like I
have it all together and I have all this knowledge,
and like I don't.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I really don't.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I don't have it all figured, and I make mistakes
and I'm not perfect and I'm constantly trying to be
the best version of myself creatively and curiosity and all
these things to be better for my kids. But like
I get the split between Emily and Daisy, because I
feel it a lot, and I feel shame because women
(11:21):
like me can't talk about it.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Did you feel a lot of this as well yourself,
going through motherhood and splitting yourself into all of these
different types of people you wanted to be and other
people wanted you to be.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think so for sure. I mean I think ever
we all do. And I think it's that it's that struggle.
Like for Emily, it's like the only way out is
through right, Like she has to go through this like
insane process in the book because she has to find
the person that is both of those things, the dark,
edgy person and the and the bright I can sing
(11:57):
to my and that's okay, Like you don't have to.
Who's one? I mean, your point about isolation is so true.
You read all these statistics about how people aren't young,
women aren't having kids, and the population is falling, and
I mean places like Japan, it's like the population is
dying out, and it's like it's not because we're selfish,
it's because motherhood is impossible, Like you've made it impossible.
(12:19):
And I think that's an underlying thing in the book,
both like I created that fun like the funny Juju
bean mom app. But it's like, yeah, sure, we have
all these apps to connect. We don't have a village.
We don't have multi generational neighbors taking our kids running
around together. Like this is how for jenn for human history,
this is how babies were raised, and now they're not.
(12:40):
And it's like, there's a reason why people aren't having
kids and it's not selfishness, it's that they make it impossible,
you know. And then it's like then, of course you've
got social media with like like I don't like you know,
you see it in New York. There's like the mom
at brunch and there's the and sometimes they see the
nanny holding the ring light. You're like, it's all a
facade and it's all it's all actually more isolating you
(13:01):
kind of you kind of have a false sense of
a community when it's not. But it's like you need
that and women have always had that and now we don't.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment. After
this brief message from our sponsors. I really resonate with
what you're saying. And the characters is Emily and Daisy
almost feel like they have a war happening inside them
that many women also have going on. So I'm curious
(13:31):
if you think you know women, like do you think
every woman has an Emily and has a daisy inside them?
And we just aren't willing to talk about it completely.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And I feel like we're kind of seeing it in
the next stage of womanhood, Like there's all these stories
about like perimenopause and she just went crazy and ghosted
her family, or like I love Miranda July, I loved
all fours and that's like sort of the next stage.
But You're right, it starts when you have a kid
and you start to like slowly, slowly bury that other
person that like kind of wild or spontaneous or you
(14:07):
know person. You bury that person so far in the
need of of fulfilling everyone else's expectations of you or
everyone else's needs to the point that I do think
there's like there's probably a sequel to this in like
the minimal, yeah, very menopausal phase when it's just like
it like you go a little nuts, like you go,
you know, you can't always, you can't do that forever.
(14:30):
So I definitely feel like, I mean, I am lucky
because I have writing as an outlet, but I have
I've always had a very loud inner voice. And I
do feel like all of the moms, hopefully in the book,
like go on like many journeys of what Emily is
going through. Like this community that she created allows all
of the women to sort of break out of the
(14:50):
you know, there's like the super up tight tiger mom
and like they all sort of are able to let
go in their own in their own ways. I mean,
I want to think that everybody everybody has that, like
I do too, Like perfect moms, You're like, oh, she's
getting crack or she hasset.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well yeah, what are the skeletons in that thing? I
love it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Well, it's interesting because Daisy represents this like sexuality and
chaos and power and survival, and Emily is more of
the control and the motherhood and the structure. And I'm
curious if you think, because you did such a great
job of really layering these characters, but I think in
real life society, like do you think society allows women
(15:35):
to be layered and this type of context.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Like I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I feel like we have to have it all figured out.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Oh no, I mean, we don't.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Get that we don't understand it at all. I mean,
it's interesting in Hollywood. I'm always writing screen scripts and
I get the likable protagonist note. It's like you don't
somebody give the tony soprano the likable note. You have
the likeability women are always getting though, like we really
want to root for her, you know, And I feel
like that's the likability no. I mean even I was
(16:07):
so liberated to write Emily because like, she's complicated. You're
not gonna like every decision she makes, but hopefully. But
I feel like this is why in journalism, I'm always
drawn to covering these women who are like scrutinized in
the media and hugely controversial and just I just don't
think anything is black and white, you know, and I
(16:27):
think everything is shades of gray, and it's you're gonna say, like,
I mean, this was a story that was that stayed
with me. But I spent a lot of time with
Loraina Bobbitt. If you remember in the night like the
nineties scandal that she cut her husband. All we knew
is she cut her husband's penis off, and she was
like this horrible monster and she became sort of like
the symbol of like feminism gone awry. You know, I
(16:48):
got to know this woman. He had been raping her
in Virginia. Marital rape was not a crime in the nineties,
and she was an immigrant from Ecuador. He threatened to
have her to it if she ever left him. Years
of marital rape. She would call the police. They said, sorry,
you're married. And I'm not saying like cutting off your
(17:10):
husband's member is a good thing to do. I'm just saying, like,
I think every story, every woman has layers, and if
you want to just put someone just I mean, this
is controversial. I shouldn't even bring her up because she's
so controversial. But I profile Elizabeth Holmes. Okay, yeah, she's
in prison. She did crimes. She should be in prison.
But at the same time, I don't think people realize
(17:32):
that she was raped at Stanford. There are police reports.
I read she was not lying about that. Sunny Balbani
was thirty nine, she was nineteen. He said, you're a genius,
drop out of school. I'll help you start your company.
I'll keep you safe. She moved in with him. There
are these notes are in public record. She would he said,
you have to like stop talking like a little girl.
(17:54):
Like you have to sleep, you can only sleep four
hours a good startup personally sleep, you have to have
strict being a diet. I'm not blaming I'm not totally
blaming him. She completely deserves responsibility. All I'm saying is
every single story that we decide we know has layers,
you know, and it has shades of gray, and there
is context that we're missing because we love to just
(18:15):
say that woman's a witch. I mean, this goes back
to like the Salem, which I mean it goes back
to the dawn of time. It's like that woman is
a witch, and it's it's actually something that you always
hear that woman, you know, always. And so one of
the things that has been controversial but also like to me,
very fulfilling is getting to know the layers of of
(18:37):
of the women that I've covered. And then that was
something that was really gratifying to kind of work into
both Emily and Daisy, like we're not all one thing.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, exactly, And it's so true because we are so
forced into categories. It's like not even just layers, it's categories.
It's like, oh, she's either the bitch or the good
mom or the bad mom, the sexy, the pure, this
stayble all the broke in.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
It's always a fucking label.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And I'm like, we can hold a lot of shit
at the same time, so let me be really clear.
And we're also human. We're evolving and like figuring life
out as it's moving so fast. But what parts of
yourself did you confront while writing this book, if any.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
No I did. I mean, it's weird. It was a
really intense experience writing a book, I mean, writing a novel,
because I had to just like go to a magical
place where a novel is, you know, it's a kind
of a lonely interest. But at the same time, it
was like my husband come buy and me like how
the writing on like shit got real dark for data
frimily daisy, you know. But I did things came up
(19:43):
about myself that I didn't know. I mean, I didn't
know how nostalgic I was for New York. And we
moved to LA about four years ago, and I, you know,
I want I set this book in New York, and
I felt like I was living in New York again
writing the book. I mean, even though I think I
make clear how hard it is to write, have a baby,
in New York. I did, I did miss it, and
I also and yeah, so I think that came out.
(20:05):
I think the loneliness, I think the marriage. I also
I think I don't know if you notice this in
the book, but I think a lot of like postpartum books,
the husband's like a monster or like he's just completely
neglectful and like horrible. And I don't think that. I didn't.
I don't. Roman is a good dat, Like, he's a
good person, he's a good house. He's trying. He just
cannot understand, like he cannot understand what she went through physically,
(20:28):
he cannot understand, you know. And he's also like under
a lot of stress to like be the provider and
not get laid off. So that so so I wanted
to also portray the marriage just in a way that
felt not like not like what I usually kind of
see or see portrayed, just like he's not a monster,
(20:48):
he's trying.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
But I think you nail it here because there is
a lot, you know, when you talk about postpartum, you
talk about the complexities that come with the dangers and
the emotional dangers of having a child, and a lot
of people don't want to talk about it, and there
is a massive mental health conversation within you know, this book,
(21:12):
and you do it so raw and real that, like,
I do think women emotionally, emotionally are splitting themselves every
day just to survive this modern life. And then we're
told to shut the fuck up and be happy and
grateful for what we have and like, how lucky are
we that we get this life? Meanwhile they're like, you know,
(21:34):
you get a few weeks if you're lucky, and you
need to get your ass back to work.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
And it's it's just like such such.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
A hamster wheel, and there's so much we're still not
having an honest conversation about when it comes to mental
health and women who give you know, birth and what
that looks like and the support system that goes behind it.
What I love is the book does explore how women
can save each other but also how they can destroy
(22:02):
each other. Absolutely, truthfully, absolutely it does. And I'm curious, well,
why you think so many female relationships carry so much
emotional intensity, because that's what I find.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's such a good question. It's so funny because it's
like men don't do this, they don't have these intense
friendships and then oh she mad at me? Did she
ghost me? Nope, men do. It's so simple. It's like
my husband has a fucking WhatsApp with friends from high school.
It's like it's just very simple. You're right. Women bring
so much drama. For lack of a better word, I
(22:38):
don't know. I mean, part of it I think is beautiful, right,
because we pour our whole hearts and souls into these
relationships and we feel so intensely. You know, one of
the things I love writing and my work is sisters
because I feel like my sister could call me a content.
Then we're sharing nachos five minutes later, like nothing happened.
It's like there's no relationship like it, right, And I
(23:01):
feel like female friendship is the same sort of way.
It's just like a super intense friendship and it burns.
We burn hard, man, and then then when it goes out,
it's dark. It's like you're in a really dark place.
I mean sometimes I feel like, you know, in a
romantic relationship, there's usually closure he broke up with you
or whatever, she broke up with you, And I feel
(23:22):
like in a female friendship, like Daisy just disappeared when
they were in college. There's no closure. It's a weird
sort of thing, but yeah, I don't you're really tapped
into it. It's so true.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So it but it's also because you know what I do,
what I do respect, and what I do know about
you just from following your journey is like you've spent
years covering powerful people on high pressure environments. It's a
really interesting space to live in and you have to
have a type of excellence constantly to meet the moment,
(23:59):
right and whether that's you know, you've already discussed a
few very very high profile people that you've had to
share and tell stories and very very big publications. There's
a lot of pressure that comes with that, especially.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Getting it wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Do you do you think women, because we're kind of
touching on this, I think womanhood in I think womanhood generally,
I think is a performance I do, and I think
we're conditioned to shape shift in order to survive ambitious spaces.
I'm curious if you would agree with that as someone
who's lived multiple sides of it, and it's not easy.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, no, I think you have to. I think you
immediately kind of walk into a room and have to assess,
like what, who am I in this room?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I mean there were times when I walked into a
room with you know, executive politicians or executives, and you
immediately sort of feel yourself putting on this other, you know,
kind of personality and to and honestly, I don't know
if you felt like this when you were, you know, competing,
but it's like you almost can forget who you really are.
(25:07):
You know, you do very.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Good at it. You do that so much, very good
at it.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yes, and you're competing, and you're just like and you're
kind of like, yeah, you almost forget who you are.
And then you have a baby and you have time
home with this little creature that you have to keep alive.
And suddenly and your friends and your friends or your
like colleagues are all they're all still running around doing
their ambitious thing. And I just think you have this
like and there's this hormonal rush and you just have
(25:34):
this all this time to be like, wait, who the
fuck am I? Like, I don't I don't even know
who I am? Where'd I go?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
There's I think there's a there's a there's a I'm writing.
I'm adapting this to film, too, so I'm not sure
if it was in the book, but there's definitely something
in the in the screenplay where Emily like looks in
the mirror and her way out the door and is like,
who's that? You know? You see this kind of disheveled
mom and you're like, wait, I don't recognize her.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Oh it's such it's so good, and you know what
I will say because it's so true with Emily. But
what I found most fascinating in the book and in
your writing is you refuse to make Daisy a victim.
She's fucking complicated, she's powerful, she's messy, she's sexual, she's strategic,
she's all the things. Why was it so important for
(26:17):
you to write a female desire without ant like without
an apology?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Which I mean, this was something I have to give
credit to Stormy Daniels. Like, Stormy Daniels knows who the
fuck she is, and she's a powerful She's a very
powerful woman. She's one of the, if not the first,
woman to direct her own adult films, to own her
own narrative. Like I am sure if she had chosen
a different past, she would have been a very prominent director.
Like she's she's a badass, right, so, and one of
(26:43):
the things I don't think she liked me, and she
wasn't like like like like one of the things that
bothered her that I felt was very important. And I
talked to a lot of sex workers for that and
this it's like they hate like liberal who feel sorry
for them, like she could like like, oh, it's like
(27:04):
I'm sorry you have to do that. It's like, this
is what I chose. I'm smart, I'm empowered, this is
what I chose. I And so I didn't ever want
Daisy to be like it's so And I think Emily was,
like there's this tension between because Emily like kind of
doesn't want to ask because she doesn't want to like,
you know, exploit her. But I do think Emily is
coming at it as a little like it's so sad
(27:26):
she had to drop out of college and start stripping,
and like Daisy's like, yo, I'm living in a fucking penthouse.
Like yeah, like I've traveled the world, I've had an
interesting life, Like did I have to have some orgies that, like,
you know, But I just wanted Daisy to like she
carved an interesting life for herself out of the out
of the situation that she had, and I think you
(27:47):
have to like really respect that, you know. And I
think that's sort of a journey for Emily because she's
kind of like like feels like she, you know, was
some sad like got it, got into this life she
didn't want, and she's like, no, she's actually actually the
other way around, Like Emily's in this sad life that
she didn't want. You know, she wanted to be a
(28:07):
great writer and she's writing grants and like a cubicle
in midtown and it's the it's kind of the opposite,
like she sold out. So I definitely wanted to I'm
so glad that that spoke to you because I definitely
didn't want it, Daisy to seem like the sad you know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well yeah, because it feels like the book also explores
sex work as a nuance instead of a judgment, and
I think that's important in itself. And I'm curious if, like,
what did you hope the conversations would spark writing this
type of character, Like do you think women are allowed
to have redemption after renovation, like reinventing themselves, Like I
(28:48):
think for so especially, we live in that cancel culture
where it's like you get one thing fucking wrong and
people are like forever bringing it up. Yes, yes, and
I'm just like, it's not that. It's like it's not
that easy. Like people are learning and discovering and shedding
skins and all of these things that make us beautifully human.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
I'll be back in just a moment after this brief
message from our sponsors. What do you think women are
most afraid of that people will discover about them through
this through writing this book.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I mean, I think there's always the like bad mom,
you know, it's like that's so, that's so. I was
so conscious to me in the book to like make
it clear that Emily loves her baby. But it's like
it's like she does love for baby, of course. But
I think we're so afraid of being labeled that, you know,
(29:46):
or looking like that early God forbid you should be
sexual when you have a new baby. It's like you
should just be this, you know, milk bar for your
for your baby or not just or have desires forget
if they're sexual, even if they're and even if they're professional.
It's like it's like God forbid, those desires should should
still exist, you know, when you have this little person
(30:07):
to keep, to keep alive, and so I think that I, yeah,
I did. I definitely did go into writing Emily thinking
I have to maintain that she was a good mom.
And then I would stop myself and be like, why
do I have this like that I need to write
her honest? Of course she's of course she loves her,
Like why do I have to keep reminding reminding readers?
(30:29):
We can hold these two thoughts right Like, she's feeling
like we should be able to She's feeling like something's
really missing in her life, and she's also like hugely
grateful and loves her baby. You know. True. But it's yeah,
it's like the bad mom. It's so interesting too, the
cancel culture things. It's like Michael Jackson. There's the biggest
movie right now is about Michael Jackson. It's like women
(30:50):
in particular, I think we have a hard time like like,
let's shake this off and try to a lot of
canceled men are just like I'm back, like they felt
like yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
So true.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And I'm curious personally, what scares you more, losing yourself
or being fully seen m Because I do think we
toggle a little bit in this book and I know this.
I'm this is a personal question, but I am curious
because it is a complex thing I think we all
(31:21):
always struggle with as women.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, that's so interesting. I think I think I've sort
of accepted being misunderstood and it's frustrating, but it's not
I don't know if we can really do it at
this point, I don't know what I can do, what
else I could do about it, Like, I don't know,
how about you? How do you feel?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I asked the question because I struggle with it.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I know clearly what it's like to.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Lose myself, how to abandon myself, how to shape shift
and not canize the person the reflection in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So it's like, but.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Then when you try to live your truth and you're
trying to be fully seen, it comes with a lot
of criticism. So it's almost your damn it. If you
do interesting, you're damned. If you're done, you don't.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, And it's I mean.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
This is something covering Hillary Clinton. It's like she developed
protective walls that made the real Hillary such an enigma
that we didn't see her or know who she really was.
And and I think it's like, but it's so interesting
that you say that, because it's like it's a fence mechanism.
If you if you know the real me, you might
(32:38):
like it's it's vulnerable. It's really fucking vulnerable. Yeah, And
that's why I'm so touched that you love the book,
because it's really vulnerable to put yourself out there, whether
it's like competing as an athlete or whatever you're doing.
If you put yourself out there, you're you're vulnerable. If
you build walls and you pretend to be someone else,
it feels almost like safer. It's like you don't you're
(32:58):
not judging me, you're judging this PERSONA I put out
correct that ends up backfiring too. People will be like,
she's not authentic, you know, it just feels fake. So
I don't know what the answer is. I had a
sticky note when I wrote this book that you're reminding
me of that said, what would you write if you
weren't afraid?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Oh my gosh, Because.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I feel like if you are worried about how someone's
gonna interpret what you're writing, it will never be honest
and it will never be real. And it's like like
I almost feel like I have to be like embarrassed.
I'm embarrassed to show someone. If I'm not embarrassed to
show my editor or my agent the draft, then I
(33:42):
didn't go to the place I should have gone to.
Like I usually, it's kind of scared in a way.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I love that you said that, because I think too
often we do try to play it safe because of fear,
and we take shortcuts because.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Of that fear.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
And it's it's a beautiful thing you just said, because
we have to do the brave thing and the hard
thing to get on the other side of the possibility.
What's possible on the other side of that, And that's
how you create change. That's the sweet spot of growth.
That's where I want to live. That's where I think
people like you and I want to live. So I
(34:18):
love that you said that, and it's so important. And
I'm really curious though. I got to ask this. You
have a quote it says, very early in my life,
it was too late. It was already too late when
I was eighteen.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Can you talk to me about that?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
And I'm just curious because it's several times throughout the book,
and why did you do that?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well? That is inspired by Marguerite Duros's novel The Lover,
which is a book that I read over and over
again because it's so so beautiful. It probably doesn't pass
the current piece. It's not like Lolita because a woman
wrote it, but it is like Lalita, and that a
very young woman is very very beautiful, a young girl,
(35:03):
you know, and she has all a lover and and
she sort of even as she is kind of doted
on and beloved, she knows that it's it won't it's
not going to last. And she's like writing from this
very vulnerable place of of kind of feeling like her
life is passing, has passed her up even when she
(35:25):
was she was very very young. And I feel like
that to me, really spoke to to Daisy. I think
that she, yeah, very early in life, I knew that
it was too late. And it's interesting because I feel
like the flip side of Daisy feeling like that. And
of course we've talked about how she didn't, you know,
(35:46):
she wasn't forcing this life. She wasn't a victim, but
she did. I think feel like and I think this
Emily felt this way too. All of these dreams that
they had, We're going to move to Paris. I'm going
to be a poet. I'm going to be a great artist.
It's like, very very early in life, if they realized
that wasn't going to work out, you know. And I
think a lot of people feel that way, and I
think particularly a lot of people feel that way who
(36:08):
do not have rich parents, don't have a trustpond, like
you feel like, well, that dream is never that's never
going to be, that's never going to work out. So
I think there's on one hand, there's the very early
in life I thought it was too late. And there's
another quote in the book that is it's never too
late to be what you might have been. And so
I feel like Emily is toggling between these two ideas. Right,
(36:31):
it was too late for me, I'm going to move
to New York and be a poet. I mean I
personally wanted to move to New York to be a poet.
I would give a journalist because I'm like, I gotta
pay the rent. So so in one hand, Emily thinks
this life is too late, and the other I think
I think she's feeling like, why why is it too late?
Like I just had a baby, don't I don't know
who I am anymore. Why can't this be the chance
(36:52):
for me to make it almost like a new like
a new start for her.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Really, Oh that's so powerful, aman. My last question to
really bring it home and tie everything together is like,
as a woman now in her forties raising two children,
I've learned a lot in this journey of life. I've
(37:20):
learned to overly apologize and I'm unlearning that in real time.
And it's a conscious effort and choice every day. And
what's something women need to stop apologizing for? In your opinion?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Oh my god, I can't be that's so interesting. I
play tennis. The number of times I say sorry, sorry, sorry,
Even when I get a good shot, I feel bad
and I say sorry. It's so crazy. I'm surprised you
do that.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I do, I do, And I notice, yeah, And I
noticed my five year old daughter. Not because it's a
conscious effort, because I'm I know that they are absorbing
and sucking up every bit of who I am and
watching and my daughter, who's five, says it often, and
(38:14):
I now have constantly said, it's okay, sweetie, you don't
have to you don't have to apologize because accidents happen,
and then we always are like, did we learn from
this or did we you know? But I do find
it's an inherent thing that women always feel the need
to apologize for everything. And I raise my hand, I'm
(38:37):
it is a default setting that I carry with me
that I am trying to unlearn. And some a woman
like yourself who has been in the rooms with some
incredible people and characters, and the way you are so
curious and the questions you ask. And you are a
fantastic journalist, and you're a fantastic writer, and you're making
(39:00):
incredible storytelling content. But like, there is a part of
us that constantly feels this of falling into line and
taking accountability and ownership when it's not ours, and shrinking
ourselves and making us a little more absorbable or a
little more smaller in a room so we don't take
(39:20):
up too much oxygen and air. But I do think
it's really important because there's a lot of you know,
people who are listening and watching this who probably feel
that inside as well. And I just am curious, like,
what do we need to stop apologizing for?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
It's a really really good question. What is it with
our instinct to apologize? I mean, I feel like we
should stop apologizing about you know, so many things. I
mean the motherhood thing in particular, like I'm sorry, yes,
I'm giving him cheetos. I know you don't approve like
you know, everything from like the snacks on the playground
(40:01):
to program to like, you know, my programming. My kid
doesn't want to play bas Baseball's honest thing. I'm not
gonna apologize. We're just getting out, you know, Like I
feel like there's so there's so much I got. I
could go through the through the list, and there's funny.
This is sort of another character that I got to
know in my journey. But when I first moved to
(40:22):
New York, I became really good friends with Marty Reesman,
who was the ping pong hustler who inspired Marty Supreme.
He was a seventy five year old ping pong hustler
when I met him, and I was like twenty two
and I just moved to New York, and first we
met and became like we would like go around and
go to restaurants and I'd watch him play ping pong.
But I wrote a column recently about him because the
movie reminded me of my friendship, and he taught me
(40:45):
how to stop apologizing and start throwing elbows at the
Barney's warehouse sale. I was like, it was and it
seems trivial, like a trivial thing, but actually I didn't
know how to dress. I needed someone to and I
just remember going and be like, I, that's my cardigan.
And it was like the first time where I like,
it wasn't just about the clothes. It was about me
(41:06):
becoming the person who could get a job in journalism
in New York. I was wearing my clothes from Texas.
It wasn't gonna work, you know, Like I needed to
dress the part. And I think he really, like some
of these characters that I've met have inspired me to
just like stop apologizing and like go fucking get it,
like go get it, you know, and I do. I
(41:27):
do think it's I still do it all all the time.
But I'm getting I'm getting better, you know, like like
you know, you see you see criticism online and you
want to be like, no, that's not what I meant,
And I'm like, you know what I misunderstood. It's fine.
They'll move on to criticizing someone else tomorrow. Like so
I'm getting a little bit, don't you think having kids
also helps you with that, Like, I feel like, such,
(41:49):
there's such beauty when you can just like shut your phone,
shut your laptop, and you're like, you know what, he
doesn't care what someone's saying about me, or what's the
house that this? You know that this article is misunderstood
or this or that. It's like you're just kind of
I feel like you can be so present and childlike
with kids, and it's it's like a beautiful thing. But
(42:10):
now I should apologize for talking too much.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
No, I love it.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I do not apologizing.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
No, we're not, because maybe the real I say this.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And I really want to close this out because I
think it's important, and I think maybe the real work
of becoming isn't really choosing between the versions of ourself.
It's actually learning how to hold them all with honesty
and truth. And I think that's the part of shape
shifting and performative aspects as women. We become so good at,
(42:40):
but the consequences are real and you lose yourself in
the process. So I do think, you know, we have
a lot of versions and layers and complexities of our
personalities and who we once were and shutting that to
who we are becoming, and you know, motherhood is very hard,
and I think learning how to hold all of these
(43:01):
truths and these versions of ourself is maybe the real
thing that sets us free.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
I think that's beautiful. I love that. I love that,
and it could be a really rough process to get there,
you know, as only goes through. But as we said,
the only way out is that if you're through and
you're right, and ideally you come out the other end
and you're and you're both of that, you're you're like
that balance of both of those people, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Well, I'm so excited for you. Please every want This
is so fun. Thank you so much for coming. I
know this book is going to crush like all of
them that you that you've been writing in the past,
and I look forward to seeing more, more shows and
more movies out there with your name on it.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I'd love to keep you posted when I'm in New
York too.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Please events, I would love that. All right, everyone much,
Thank you so much for being on. Thank you for
tuning in to another episode of Wide Open, and we'll
see you next week. Amy, Thank you so much for
coming on. This conversation felt less like talking about a
thriller and more like unpacking the complexity of being a
woman in today's world. Motherhood, ambition, identity, friendship, survival, all
(44:09):
of it. Amy's new book, With Friends Like You, comes
out this July. Pre Order it online now, and if
you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe, follow, and
leave a review. I'm Ashland Harris and this is wide open.
We'll see you next week.
Host
Ashlyn Harris
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!