June 22, 2026 • 26 mins
What was it really like to live, teach, love, grieve, and lead through one of the most consequential periods in modern American history? In part one of this in-depth conversation, live from The Boch Center Shubert Theatre in Boston, Dr. Jill Biden shares the personal stories, hard-earned lessons, and unexpected moments behind "View from the East Wing."
Find out what her non-negotiables were while being First Lady and hear her gut-wrenching reaction to the demolition of the building she once called home.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. At
a time when Americans are grappling with urgent questions about democracy, leadership,
and the future of the nation, perspective matters because history
is not just shaped by elections or policies or headlines,
(00:25):
but by people, by their character, their convictions, and the
choices they make when the stakes are the highest. Very
few people have witnessed those choices more closely than doctor
Jill Biden. As an educator, advocate, first lady, and one
of the country's most respected public servants, Doctor b has
(00:47):
spent decades championing the values of service, empathy, and civic
engagement while helping us navigate some of the most defining
chapters of modern American life. In her new book, Biden
takes readers beyond the public record and into the human
stories behind history. View from the East Wing is a
(01:07):
deeply personal look at the relationships, challenges, and moments that
shaped her years in the White House, and a chance
to reflect on leadership, resilience, and hope at a time
when all three feel more essential than ever. I am
so honored to say I am here in Boston tonight.
(01:27):
Doctor Joel Biden come join.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Us as I bring out Sophia, Who's gonna join me
in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Come on, guys, doctor B, Doctor B in Boston. I
love this.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ah, Hi, hey, buddy, we can They're the only ones
who probably can understand my Philly accent because.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
They have love have their own.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I I'm so thrilled to be here with all of
you tonight. I'm still just so tickled that you asked
me to come. And also during Pride, Happy Pride, everyone.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
We're so happy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
You're I have to say, and I'll tell you why
we're here. I've been lucky enough to know the bidens
for quite some time. I signed on. I think it
was the end of seven for the first election with
you all and President Obama. It was a night a
bunch of US healthcare advocates had been asked to come
(02:40):
to something at the White House, and everybody was like,
oh my god, we can't believe we're here. And Joe
was talking to all of us really just like what
are you passionate about? What are you concerned about? And
brocc Lean's in and goes.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yo, we gotta go, and he just like you know,
we were all in our twenties and he he was
just giving us all his time and attention, and there
were no cameras in that room.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And every time I've been around him, around you, you're
both just so genuinely.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Caring about somethings. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm thrilled to be with you to.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I got questions. I did homework. Nobody's surprised. I'm curious
about something because obviously part of writing a memoirs looking back,
and you have such an incredible life to look back at,
all of your service, all of your teaching, but before that,
before you were doctor Biden or missus Biden in class
(03:41):
to someone, I'm curious about you when you were somebody's student.
When you think about your life, if you could walk
out in front of this building and run into yourself at.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Ten years old, do you think do you think that
little girl would see herself?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You would you see yourself in her? Well?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I never would have predicted how fun my life took.
I mean, quite honestly, you know, I grew up really
in an idyllic I mean idyllic childhood I just had.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
My parents were really young. There were lots of fun.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I mean, we would have tomato fights during the summer
out on the lawn. You know, having five four sisters
was just so great.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
And I loved school, as you know, when I was
in those early years.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
By high school, I was cutting class like the rest
of everybody else.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
She's a good time you guys.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, so sneaking out, you know, to go eat a
HOGI anyway, So, but my ten year old self, I
don't think I've changed all that much.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I mean, I still.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I still loved to read and I loved to write,
and so I don't think I changed that much.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
No, that's pretty cool, especially given the life. Yeah, I'm
curious why this felt like the time, because view from
the East wing is it's personal, it's historic. Did you
just kind of feel ready to put it all out
there given the state of the world in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Six, You know, I was definitely ready to put it
out And when Joe got out of office, I just
felt that so many people went out and wrote books
and I and I, you know, I read parts of
many of them, and I thought, and I saw things
that weren't true or had been you know, misconstrued, and
(05:45):
I thought, I want to write my own reflections of
how I saw things it and that encompassed, like the
whole four years. It encompassed travel, state, dinners, camp, David teaching,
all the things I did, and then I included the
chapters that were the really, you know, hard ones to
(06:07):
write about Joe getting out. But I want you to know,
because many of you have not read the book, it's
not a political book. It's a book about, like you're saying,
an ordinary woman who was given the opportunity to live
an extraordinary life.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And it's my reflections on that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I will say as a reader. What was so touching
to me about it is you. You didn't have to say, hey,
I'm reminding you all that there's people in here in
this political world, but you offered us such a personal
view into a space that I think a lot of
(06:55):
us on the outside forget. Most days there's people trying
to do the best they can and sometimes the only
decisions you're given are a bad one and a worse one,
and you still have to nurture the country through it.
And I think we all need to remember that we're
all just people trying to figure out how to do
(07:17):
this and it, I don't know, you did something really
really beautiful in it, and not everything you're reflecting on
is beautiful. I mean the first Lady's office in the
East Wing is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I remember that, the East Wing, and that that was horrifying.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And as a person who's has the ultimate privilege of
having been invited to the house on more than one occasion,
like you guys still to walk up and you go
through security and you give them all your stuff, and
then you go through the next one and you give
them all your stuff, and you're kind of like, am
I gonna get Is this where I get in trouble?
Is this where you're gonna.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Tell me to go?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Can I still not?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I still have a gun? Right?
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Well, I would never, But like you get up there
and then you walk this path and there's these gates
and little steps, and you walk up to the East
Wing and it's like, I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Believe I'm here. And to think it's gone, and to
think about the work you and so many other first
ladies did in that office, it's crushing. And you reflected
on it in a way that hit me. You said,
to see it, the innards of the East Wing were
spread for everyone to see, like a rare and precious
animal that had been hunted and killed. You make it
(08:32):
make sense for all of us who'd never had an
office there. How do you think about it now as
we're a year into the Mayhem.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Half you're and a half.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, not that anyone's scouting.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You know, I love the East wing. And like you're saying, Sophia,
I mean you.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Would families would come in or you.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Know, to the east, to the east that.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Was the entrance to the White House.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And I would hear families or people come in and
they'd be so excited and just to be there and
take pictures with their family.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And because it does have this mystique to it.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And then as you walk down the hallway, one of
the things that I did was put artwork of military
children so that people would know when they came to
the White House how much we honored military families.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Thank you and thank you military families.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And then as you continued down, they used to have
well when we came in, they had these pictures, and
you know, they would just kids would just sort of
walk past the pictures.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And I thought, you know, as a teacher, we learned
with all of our senses, and.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So I changed it so that the pictures would revolve
and you'd see like several things that happened, or like
the Carter administration or the you know, Barack Obama's administration,
all the way down the line, and then you'd walk
a little bit further on and there would be the
older presidents and the kids would start to look at
(10:14):
their phones like, you know, like so disinterested.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Like what's this.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I changed it to have all the first ladies pictures,
the ones that you would.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Know, like Lara Bush and Barbara Bush and Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So so then it meant something to kids. And then
they went on the tour, and I made it interactive.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I worked with the History Channel, and.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I made it so that you could go further into
the rooms, you could hear FDR on the radio, you
could feel the marble that was made up the marble fireplace.
So that kids became really involved with the tour and.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
That they had a really good White House.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Experience rather than sort of walk by and look at
all these paintings where they didn't know what they were
looking at. I had to make it meaningful for them.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So when I.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Saw it come down and someone you know who will
remain nameless at the White House was sending me pictures
like Jill, look what he's going on. And that wrecking ball,
you know, that kept hitting the concrete.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And the and the building, and.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You know it just honest to god, it reminded me
of like those elite hunters, you know that go out
and shoot these rare and precious animals and then gut them,
and or like if you've been like I know you're
not from Philly like I am, but you know the
butcher shops that hang those animals in the windows with
(11:46):
their you know, just hanging everything. It was just so
raw and cruel. And you think of all the historical
memory of the of the East Wing and all the
first ladies who had their office is there not even
to mention the gardens and the flowers and the trees
(12:06):
and all the beauty that was there for years and
years and years gone, yeah gone.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
When you when I read that, I thought about he
who shan't be named and his sons who shan't be named.
Who are those kinds of trophy hunters? Yeah, who love
to put an awful photo like that on Instagram? What
an insane thing?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Where do we We're in the upside down?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
But it really it made me think about that vision
where take more, no matter what, for your gain, versus
honoring history saying the White House is actually enough and incredible. Yeah,
(13:01):
you know, it seems like we're having a conversation about
what kind of a future we want to pursue. Do
we want to ground ourselves in philosophy and reverence and
morality and respect or is everything for sale?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
And I think particularly apparently.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Well unfortunately hopefully not forever, we have work to do
for November. You you have always been someone who acts
out of such a place of realness. I was telling
her aback sat I was like, my grandpa would would
die tonight and be like, she's abroad. I like her,
(13:43):
you know, like, you're a real person and a dedicated
public servant, and you demand respect, you expect respect. As
a teacher, you've taught respect. I'm curious how you think
we get back to a nation that is respectful of
(14:04):
each other.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I was in the airport, you know, just minding my
own business, just walking down the hall, and one woman,
I mean in the middle of everything.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I mean, she.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Turned and whipped around and she get yells make America
great again, Go Trump.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
And I was like, and I was just walking through
the airport, and I thought, what's wrong with her? Yeah, okay,
I can't imagine in my wildest dreams like saying that
to somebody on the other side, like yelling some random,
(14:45):
like mean comment. We have to get back to kindness
and to listening to one another.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And it may not be easy, but we have to
do it.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, And I think it starts with us.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I mean, it's starts with us. And I think if
we just keep we don't give up, we don't give
into it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
If we just keep pushing forward and just saying listen
to us.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Hear us, we'll hear you too.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I mean, that's the way it used to be when
Joe got into the Senate in nineteen seventy two, that
you know, people from both sides of the aisle. And
I'm old enough that I remember that, like the Republicans
and the Democrats, they would disagree all the time on
(15:35):
the floor of the Senate, but then we'd go out
to dinner together and we'd go you know, we'd travel
together or whatever. But we respected one another's opinions. And
so we've got to get back to it.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
What do you think is the pathway?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I agree, you know, I I think there's We've lost
something that I think is really essential, which is the
willingness to learn in public. You know, everyone's so scared
to get canceled or to say the wrong thing, or
to be cringe. I'm like, don't kill what makes you cringe?
(16:15):
Kill the cringe. Like, be emotional, be sweet, say something cheesy,
tell people you love them.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I think that's part of it, and something that I
have learned actually from your husband, that I have learned
from watching President Obama and Michelle, even from President Clinton.
You know, they served through periods where not all the
(16:42):
decisions were great, Like you're doing the best you can
with the information you have. The fact that President Biden,
the fact that President Clinton were like, oh yeah, we
were absolutely wrong on the crime bill, so we got
to do something better. Like that's exactly what I want
my president to say.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I look at the.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Data, I got pitched a solution. It was the wrong one.
We're gonna fix it. Like this idea that if you
make a mistake and you admit it, you're a loser,
so you're gonna double down on hurting people.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I'm like, what are we doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So I think that's part of it too, Like we
give our kids, whether they're our children or kids we teach,
We give them space to learn and rip and repair,
and we seem to have lost that in the public discourse,
and I think we need it back.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
We definitely need it back. We definitely need it back.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, I mean, maybe not for the lady who yelled
at you in the airport. I'm glad you were nice
to her.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
If I had been with you, I want to, But
I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
So out of I mean, it's out of reason.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Like why would like who gives you permission?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Like we've somehow had feel this permission to yell at
people or scream at people or say nasty comments.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I mean, I mean the Internet.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, And so maybe that was the beginning of it,
or maybe it started more recently.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't know either. You know, it's interesting, though, because
that experience you had in the airport is the byproduct
of being a person whose life becomes a fishbowl. And
you and many people who've lived in the White House
talk about how the White House is kind of a
fish bowl. How do you maintain a sense of a
(18:31):
private life or normalcy when you live in that house?
I mean, you can't open a window, you can't go
for a walk, like, what's your life? What's your life
in there?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
You can go for a walk and you are in
a fish bowl in that you know. Uh, well, our
my code name is Capri and.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Because I'm Italian, I'm a good Italian girl. And then
and then Joe's was Celtic, you know, Irish. So anyway,
we got the letter c every presidential uh, every president
gets a letter from the alphabet and they have to
choose their own names. And like our kids were Coaster
and Cookie and you know, so they had that.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They chose themselves. Oh what would you have chosen with
a sea?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Oh? I don't know. I have to think about it.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
All right, I'll give you some so probably canol Canoli,
you know I I will good Italian.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Girl too, I come on, that's cute Carpaccio.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So so anyway, anywhere you go, I mean your movements
are like you feel like you're chipped, you know how
we do with our animals. It was like Capri moving
to elevator, Capri going down elevator, Capri walking to the hall.
Everywhere you went, you know, you were I mean, they
(19:53):
knew every single movement. So I, I don't know, it
was such a fish bowl.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
But I felt like because I taught school that two
days a week, I would go.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
To Northern Virginia Community College at seven twenty in the
morning and I would be, you know, Capri.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Going down to the cars and Willow. It was so funny.
You know, we have a cat, Willow, and so Willow.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I'd open the door and Willow would go up the
stairs and she'd go up to housekeeping and they would
they called her Wilita, and so it was so cute.
They loved her, and so they would be waiting opening
the door for her to come upstairs.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
But teaching.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Really grounded me because I walked into that classroom and
I felt that, I don't know, I felt I could breathe.
And you know, the first day of school, well, I
was never on the roster because they don't put.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Your name on for security reasons.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
So the first day of classes, the students were always like,
what's going on? Why do we have to put book
bags through this mag thing? And I said to them,
they're not looking for your drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And then the care and so the first day they
were like, oh my god, look who my teacher is.
By the second day, they were saying the F word,
so like they totally accepted.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Me as their English teacher. And I loved that. It
was it was just very cool for you.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, I get what you mean, though, it's a it's
a tether to your real life, not that not the
projection of what anyone thinks of the White House. I
also humble brag for her. You made history doing that.
You were the first first lady who held a teaching position. Yes, like,
(21:52):
but so cool. Thank you. Why did keeping the job
feel like a non for you? Did you know it
would be a tether or was it just something that
you said, like I'm not putting this on pause.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
No, I felt really strongly about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
And you know, I supported Joe in his career and
I and he always supported me in my career. Although
there were doubts like Jill, really do you you know
his staff would say, do you really think you can
teach a second lady and I mean his first lady,
And I said, well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Going to do it, so you better figure it out.
And so but I had worked too hard.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I loved teaching, I loved my career and I raised
three children. I went to graduate school like forever for
I got two masters and a doctorate from the University
of Delaware at the age of fifty five.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
So I wasn't about to give it up. And I
want to say another thing.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
At my age when we went into the White House,
you know, I was not about to say to Joe Biden, Hey,
would you give me money so I can buy pantyhose?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I mean, no way. So I had to have my independence.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And I'll tell you one thing I've really like pounded
into my granddaughters and my own daughter is like, you
must be financially independent.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yes, yes, because all this crowd wife marketing is a
ruse and we know it. I'm really curious about this
because you've spoken about your plans to teach ged classes
in women's prisons, which, again, when we talk about what
(23:48):
kind of future we want to build, I think like, oh, look,
you want to solve problems on Earth instead of moving
to Mars and building a fancy prison for yourself. Crazy
crazy that we should like make the only planet of
the trees better. But what does that calling feel like
for you? Was there something as your time as second
lady or your time as first lady that you saw
(24:09):
in the carceral system.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
You know I did because my daughter has works with
women who have come out of prisons, and she started
a women's wellness center and she helps them get jobs
or education, mental health. And so she took me to
the women's prison, and.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You know, I spoke to them.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
We had a great conversation, and then I got a
pen pal, and so we would write to each other
all the time. And I know, it was so funny,
like when Anthony, you know, my chief is daft, said
what you have a prison pen pal? I mean it's like, yes, Anthony,
I do so anyway, So I thought when I left Washington,
(24:55):
I you know, I still have it in my blood.
And if there are any teachers in this room, I'm
sure there are many.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
You know what I mean. Right, It's the best job
in the world.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Every day is so interesting and you get so attached
to your students.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So when we left, I thought, what could I do?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I don't want to like have a full schedule at
a university. And I thought, how great would it be
to go into the women's prison and get women who
are just about to come out.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I think that they call it level four and.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I talked to my community college where I used to teach,
and I said, can we come up with this program
where I would go into the prisons and teach help
them with their ged skills or workforce development. And then
this is the good part. One day they would come
to the college and they would take they would sit
(25:50):
in a classroom so that they would build their self esteem,
you know, feel like the college students that they were
earn a degree, you go on to get a job.
I mean that would be like if we could raise
them up and give that to them, that that would
be like a dream come.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
True, a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Say it's more for part two of our conversation with
doctor Tobiden
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. At
a time when Americans are grappling with urgent questions about democracy, leadership,
and the future of the nation, perspective matters because history
is not just shaped by elections or policies or headlines,
(00:25):
but by people, by their character, their convictions, and the
choices they make when the stakes are the highest. Very
few people have witnessed those choices more closely than doctor
Jill Biden. As an educator, advocate, first lady, and one
of the country's most respected public servants, Doctor b has
(00:47):
spent decades championing the values of service, empathy, and civic
engagement while helping us navigate some of the most defining
chapters of modern American life. In her new book, Biden
takes readers beyond the public record and into the human
stories behind history. View from the East Wing is a
(01:07):
deeply personal look at the relationships, challenges, and moments that
shaped her years in the White House, and a chance
to reflect on leadership, resilience, and hope at a time
when all three feel more essential than ever. I am
so honored to say I am here in Boston tonight.
(01:27):
Doctor Joel Biden come join.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Us as I bring out Sophia, Who's gonna join me
in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Come on, guys, doctor B, Doctor B in Boston. I
love this.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Ah, Hi, hey, buddy, we can They're the only ones
who probably can understand my Philly accent because.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
They have love have their own.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I I'm so thrilled to be here with all of
you tonight. I'm still just so tickled that you asked
me to come. And also during Pride, Happy Pride, everyone.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
We're so happy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
You're I have to say, and I'll tell you why
we're here. I've been lucky enough to know the bidens
for quite some time. I signed on. I think it
was the end of seven for the first election with
you all and President Obama. It was a night a
bunch of US healthcare advocates had been asked to come
(02:40):
to something at the White House, and everybody was like,
oh my god, we can't believe we're here. And Joe
was talking to all of us really just like what
are you passionate about? What are you concerned about? And
brocc Lean's in and goes.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Yo, we gotta go, and he just like you know,
we were all in our twenties and he he was
just giving us all his time and attention, and there
were no cameras in that room.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And every time I've been around him, around you, you're
both just so genuinely.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Caring about somethings. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I'm thrilled to be with you to.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I got questions. I did homework. Nobody's surprised. I'm curious
about something because obviously part of writing a memoirs looking back,
and you have such an incredible life to look back at,
all of your service, all of your teaching, but before that,
before you were doctor Biden or missus Biden in class
(03:41):
to someone, I'm curious about you when you were somebody's student.
When you think about your life, if you could walk
out in front of this building and run into yourself at.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Ten years old, do you think do you think that
little girl would see herself?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You would you see yourself in her? Well?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I never would have predicted how fun my life took.
I mean, quite honestly, you know, I grew up really
in an idyllic I mean idyllic childhood I just had.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
My parents were really young. There were lots of fun.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I mean, we would have tomato fights during the summer
out on the lawn. You know, having five four sisters
was just so great.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
And I loved school, as you know, when I was
in those early years.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
By high school, I was cutting class like the rest
of everybody else.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
She's a good time you guys.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, so sneaking out, you know, to go eat a
HOGI anyway, So, but my ten year old self, I
don't think I've changed all that much.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
I mean, I still.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I still loved to read and I loved to write,
and so I don't think I changed that much.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
No, that's pretty cool, especially given the life. Yeah, I'm
curious why this felt like the time, because view from
the East wing is it's personal, it's historic. Did you
just kind of feel ready to put it all out
there given the state of the world in twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Six, You know, I was definitely ready to put it
out And when Joe got out of office, I just
felt that so many people went out and wrote books
and I and I, you know, I read parts of
many of them, and I thought, and I saw things
that weren't true or had been you know, misconstrued, and
(05:45):
I thought, I want to write my own reflections of
how I saw things it and that encompassed, like the
whole four years. It encompassed travel, state, dinners, camp, David teaching,
all the things I did, and then I included the
chapters that were the really, you know, hard ones to
(06:07):
write about Joe getting out. But I want you to know,
because many of you have not read the book, it's
not a political book. It's a book about, like you're saying,
an ordinary woman who was given the opportunity to live
an extraordinary life.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And it's my reflections on that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I will say as a reader. What was so touching
to me about it is you. You didn't have to say, hey,
I'm reminding you all that there's people in here in
this political world, but you offered us such a personal
view into a space that I think a lot of
(06:55):
us on the outside forget. Most days there's people trying
to do the best they can and sometimes the only
decisions you're given are a bad one and a worse one,
and you still have to nurture the country through it.
And I think we all need to remember that we're
all just people trying to figure out how to do
(07:17):
this and it, I don't know, you did something really
really beautiful in it, and not everything you're reflecting on
is beautiful. I mean the first Lady's office in the
East Wing is.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I remember that, the East Wing, and that that was horrifying.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And as a person who's has the ultimate privilege of
having been invited to the house on more than one occasion,
like you guys still to walk up and you go
through security and you give them all your stuff, and
then you go through the next one and you give
them all your stuff, and you're kind of like, am
I gonna get Is this where I get in trouble?
Is this where you're gonna.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Tell me to go?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Can I still not?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I still have a gun? Right?
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Well, I would never, But like you get up there
and then you walk this path and there's these gates
and little steps, and you walk up to the East
Wing and it's like, I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Believe I'm here. And to think it's gone, and to
think about the work you and so many other first
ladies did in that office, it's crushing. And you reflected
on it in a way that hit me. You said,
to see it, the innards of the East Wing were
spread for everyone to see, like a rare and precious
animal that had been hunted and killed. You make it
(08:32):
make sense for all of us who'd never had an
office there. How do you think about it now as
we're a year into the Mayhem.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Half you're and a half.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, not that anyone's scouting.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
You know, I love the East wing. And like you're saying, Sophia,
I mean you.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Would families would come in or you.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Know, to the east, to the east that.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Was the entrance to the White House.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And I would hear families or people come in and
they'd be so excited and just to be there and
take pictures with their family.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And because it does have this mystique to it.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And then as you walk down the hallway, one of
the things that I did was put artwork of military
children so that people would know when they came to
the White House how much we honored military families.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Thank you and thank you military families.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
And then as you continued down, they used to have
well when we came in, they had these pictures, and
you know, they would just kids would just sort of
walk past the pictures.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And I thought, you know, as a teacher, we learned
with all of our senses, and.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So I changed it so that the pictures would revolve
and you'd see like several things that happened, or like
the Carter administration or the you know, Barack Obama's administration,
all the way down the line, and then you'd walk
a little bit further on and there would be the
older presidents and the kids would start to look at
(10:14):
their phones like, you know, like so disinterested.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Like what's this.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I changed it to have all the first ladies pictures,
the ones that you would.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Know, like Lara Bush and Barbara Bush and Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So so then it meant something to kids. And then
they went on the tour, and I made it interactive.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I worked with the History Channel, and.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I made it so that you could go further into
the rooms, you could hear FDR on the radio, you
could feel the marble that was made up the marble fireplace.
So that kids became really involved with the tour and.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
That they had a really good White House.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Experience rather than sort of walk by and look at
all these paintings where they didn't know what they were
looking at. I had to make it meaningful for them.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So when I.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Saw it come down and someone you know who will
remain nameless at the White House was sending me pictures
like Jill, look what he's going on. And that wrecking ball,
you know, that kept hitting the concrete.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And the and the building, and.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
You know it just honest to god, it reminded me
of like those elite hunters, you know that go out
and shoot these rare and precious animals and then gut them,
and or like if you've been like I know you're
not from Philly like I am, but you know the
butcher shops that hang those animals in the windows with
(11:46):
their you know, just hanging everything. It was just so
raw and cruel. And you think of all the historical
memory of the of the East Wing and all the
first ladies who had their office is there not even
to mention the gardens and the flowers and the trees
(12:06):
and all the beauty that was there for years and
years and years gone, yeah gone.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
When you when I read that, I thought about he
who shan't be named and his sons who shan't be named.
Who are those kinds of trophy hunters? Yeah, who love
to put an awful photo like that on Instagram? What
an insane thing?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Where do we We're in the upside down?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
But it really it made me think about that vision
where take more, no matter what, for your gain, versus
honoring history saying the White House is actually enough and incredible. Yeah,
(13:01):
you know, it seems like we're having a conversation about
what kind of a future we want to pursue. Do
we want to ground ourselves in philosophy and reverence and
morality and respect or is everything for sale?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
And I think particularly apparently.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Well unfortunately hopefully not forever, we have work to do
for November. You you have always been someone who acts
out of such a place of realness. I was telling
her aback sat I was like, my grandpa would would
die tonight and be like, she's abroad. I like her,
(13:43):
you know, like, you're a real person and a dedicated
public servant, and you demand respect, you expect respect. As
a teacher, you've taught respect. I'm curious how you think
we get back to a nation that is respectful of
(14:04):
each other.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I was in the airport, you know, just minding my
own business, just walking down the hall, and one woman,
I mean in the middle of everything.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
I mean, she.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Turned and whipped around and she get yells make America
great again, Go Trump.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
And I was like, and I was just walking through
the airport, and I thought, what's wrong with her? Yeah, okay,
I can't imagine in my wildest dreams like saying that
to somebody on the other side, like yelling some random,
(14:45):
like mean comment. We have to get back to kindness
and to listening to one another.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And it may not be easy, but we have to
do it.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, And I think it starts with us.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I mean, it's starts with us. And I think if
we just keep we don't give up, we don't give
into it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
If we just keep pushing forward and just saying listen
to us.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Hear us, we'll hear you too.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I mean, that's the way it used to be when
Joe got into the Senate in nineteen seventy two, that
you know, people from both sides of the aisle. And
I'm old enough that I remember that, like the Republicans
and the Democrats, they would disagree all the time on
(15:35):
the floor of the Senate, but then we'd go out
to dinner together and we'd go you know, we'd travel
together or whatever. But we respected one another's opinions. And
so we've got to get back to it.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
What do you think is the pathway?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I agree, you know, I I think there's We've lost
something that I think is really essential, which is the
willingness to learn in public. You know, everyone's so scared
to get canceled or to say the wrong thing, or
to be cringe. I'm like, don't kill what makes you cringe?
(16:15):
Kill the cringe. Like, be emotional, be sweet, say something cheesy,
tell people you love them.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I think that's part of it, and something that I
have learned actually from your husband, that I have learned
from watching President Obama and Michelle, even from President Clinton.
You know, they served through periods where not all the
(16:42):
decisions were great, Like you're doing the best you can
with the information you have. The fact that President Biden,
the fact that President Clinton were like, oh yeah, we
were absolutely wrong on the crime bill, so we got
to do something better. Like that's exactly what I want
my president to say.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I look at the.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Data, I got pitched a solution. It was the wrong one.
We're gonna fix it. Like this idea that if you
make a mistake and you admit it, you're a loser,
so you're gonna double down on hurting people.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I'm like, what are we doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So I think that's part of it too, Like we
give our kids, whether they're our children or kids we teach,
We give them space to learn and rip and repair,
and we seem to have lost that in the public discourse,
and I think we need it back.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
We definitely need it back. We definitely need it back.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, I mean, maybe not for the lady who yelled
at you in the airport. I'm glad you were nice
to her.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
If I had been with you, I want to, But
I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
So out of I mean, it's out of reason.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Like why would like who gives you permission?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Like we've somehow had feel this permission to yell at
people or scream at people or say nasty comments.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I mean, I mean the Internet.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, And so maybe that was the beginning of it,
or maybe it started more recently.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't know either. You know, it's interesting, though, because
that experience you had in the airport is the byproduct
of being a person whose life becomes a fishbowl. And
you and many people who've lived in the White House
talk about how the White House is kind of a
fish bowl. How do you maintain a sense of a
(18:31):
private life or normalcy when you live in that house?
I mean, you can't open a window, you can't go
for a walk, like, what's your life? What's your life
in there?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
You can go for a walk and you are in
a fish bowl in that you know. Uh, well, our
my code name is Capri and.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Because I'm Italian, I'm a good Italian girl. And then
and then Joe's was Celtic, you know, Irish. So anyway,
we got the letter c every presidential uh, every president
gets a letter from the alphabet and they have to
choose their own names. And like our kids were Coaster
and Cookie and you know, so they had that.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
They chose themselves. Oh what would you have chosen with
a sea?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Oh? I don't know. I have to think about it.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
All right, I'll give you some so probably canol Canoli,
you know I I will good Italian.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Girl too, I come on, that's cute Carpaccio.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So so anyway, anywhere you go, I mean your movements
are like you feel like you're chipped, you know how
we do with our animals. It was like Capri moving
to elevator, Capri going down elevator, Capri walking to the hall.
Everywhere you went, you know, you were I mean, they
(19:53):
knew every single movement. So I, I don't know, it
was such a fish bowl.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
But I felt like because I taught school that two
days a week, I would go.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
To Northern Virginia Community College at seven twenty in the
morning and I would be, you know, Capri.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Going down to the cars and Willow. It was so funny.
You know, we have a cat, Willow, and so Willow.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I'd open the door and Willow would go up the
stairs and she'd go up to housekeeping and they would
they called her Wilita, and so it was so cute.
They loved her, and so they would be waiting opening
the door for her to come upstairs.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
But teaching.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Really grounded me because I walked into that classroom and
I felt that, I don't know, I felt I could breathe.
And you know, the first day of school, well, I
was never on the roster because they don't put.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Your name on for security reasons.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
So the first day of classes, the students were always like,
what's going on? Why do we have to put book
bags through this mag thing? And I said to them,
they're not looking for your drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
And then the care and so the first day they
were like, oh my god, look who my teacher is.
By the second day, they were saying the F word,
so like they totally accepted.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Me as their English teacher. And I loved that. It
was it was just very cool for you.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, I get what you mean, though, it's a it's
a tether to your real life, not that not the
projection of what anyone thinks of the White House. I
also humble brag for her. You made history doing that.
You were the first first lady who held a teaching position. Yes, like,
(21:52):
but so cool. Thank you. Why did keeping the job
feel like a non for you? Did you know it
would be a tether or was it just something that
you said, like I'm not putting this on pause.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
No, I felt really strongly about it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
And you know, I supported Joe in his career and
I and he always supported me in my career. Although
there were doubts like Jill, really do you you know
his staff would say, do you really think you can
teach a second lady and I mean his first lady,
And I said, well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Going to do it, so you better figure it out.
And so but I had worked too hard.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I loved teaching, I loved my career and I raised
three children. I went to graduate school like forever for
I got two masters and a doctorate from the University
of Delaware at the age of fifty five.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
So I wasn't about to give it up. And I
want to say another thing.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
At my age when we went into the White House,
you know, I was not about to say to Joe Biden, Hey,
would you give me money so I can buy pantyhose?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I mean, no way. So I had to have my independence.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And I'll tell you one thing I've really like pounded
into my granddaughters and my own daughter is like, you
must be financially independent.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yes, yes, because all this crowd wife marketing is a
ruse and we know it. I'm really curious about this
because you've spoken about your plans to teach ged classes
in women's prisons, which, again, when we talk about what
(23:48):
kind of future we want to build, I think like, oh, look,
you want to solve problems on Earth instead of moving
to Mars and building a fancy prison for yourself. Crazy
crazy that we should like make the only planet of
the trees better. But what does that calling feel like
for you? Was there something as your time as second
lady or your time as first lady that you saw
(24:09):
in the carceral system.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
You know I did because my daughter has works with
women who have come out of prisons, and she started
a women's wellness center and she helps them get jobs
or education, mental health. And so she took me to
the women's prison, and.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You know, I spoke to them.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
We had a great conversation, and then I got a
pen pal, and so we would write to each other
all the time. And I know, it was so funny,
like when Anthony, you know, my chief is daft, said
what you have a prison pen pal? I mean it's like, yes, Anthony,
I do so anyway, So I thought when I left Washington,
(24:55):
I you know, I still have it in my blood.
And if there are any teachers in this room, I'm
sure there are many.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
You know what I mean. Right, It's the best job
in the world.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Every day is so interesting and you get so attached
to your students.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
So when we left, I thought, what could I do?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I don't want to like have a full schedule at
a university. And I thought, how great would it be
to go into the women's prison and get women who
are just about to come out.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I think that they call it level four and.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I talked to my community college where I used to teach,
and I said, can we come up with this program
where I would go into the prisons and teach help
them with their ged skills or workforce development. And then
this is the good part. One day they would come
to the college and they would take they would sit
(25:50):
in a classroom so that they would build their self esteem,
you know, feel like the college students that they were
earn a degree, you go on to get a job.
I mean that would be like if we could raise
them up and give that to them, that that would
be like a dream come.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
True, a dream come true.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Say it's more for part two of our conversation with
doctor Tobiden
Host
Sophia Bush
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