July 8, 2026 • 30 mins
Before she became a groundbreaking actress, activist, and cultural trailblazer, Laverne Cox was a kid in Mobile, Alabama, searching for a place to belong. Today, she opens up about family, the role that changed her life, and what it means to carry the weight—and opportunity—of being "the first." Plus, Laverne and Sophia go off on the hypocrisy of government officials when it comes to trans rights and discuss what other agenda may be at play.
Laverne's memoir "Transcendence" is in bookstores now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to this week's work in progress. Friends, we are
joined by a personal hero of mine, both as an
(00:21):
artist and as an incredible advocate who fearlessly stands up
and out and loud and proud for her community and
for the rest of us too. Today we are joined
by none other than Laverne Cox. She is here to
talk about her new book, Transcendent, which is one of
(00:42):
the more beautiful things I've read in a long time.
And you know Laverne from history making milestones, all the
Emmy nominations. The magazine covers her breakout role in Orange
is the New Black that transformed transgender representation and pop culture,
and all of the incredible things that she's done since
I mean my God, if I read her whole bio,
We're going to be here for an hour before I
(01:03):
even get her on the show. She has been such
a I mean my God, like a beacon of light
in a world that has not often understood her. She
has broken barriers. She has led both as a leader
and a culture maker, and she has helped to shift
(01:24):
the world around her for the better and through her acting,
her producing, her activism and now transcendent, she is going
even farther, reflecting on family, identity, faith, trauma, healing, and ambition,
the pressure that comes with being the first. And she's
sharing so many parts of her remarkable journey with us
in a way that I am just absolutely in awe of.
(01:47):
So let's dive in and hear about how Laverne is
going about sharing her story, continuing to be an activist
in twenty twenty six, when it's more dangerous than ever
for trans people to be visible, and where she's finding joy.
Let's dive in with Leverne. I have to tell you yes,
(02:20):
and I would love if, depending on how your week looks,
to ask you a few more questions about this. But
the TLDR is, I'm getting close to finishing my first
book and had no idea it would be so hard
or such actual torture. And I feel like you coming
(02:40):
this week, in this moment of this dumpster fire of
a fucking year with this book, like you. You feel
like my fairy godmother right now, just being like, Oh,
you can finish your book and you can say the things,
so thank you you.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Said you're almost done? What like what, babe, you're done
with the first draft.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I'm done with the first draft. I'm now in that
phase of editing, you know. I wondered how I would
do it, and then I realized I had far too much.
And then I've had to cut some things that I
love for length, which is hard. And then there's the
full story, and then there's the world where people like
(03:22):
us who are who don't become famous from writing, but
are famous and then write a book can't exactly always
tell the full story.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I tried to protect people by changing names and stuff,
but I just didn't think there was a point to
write it if I wasn't going to like, yes, go there,
what's the point Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
So I was like, if I'm going to do this,
it's going to be raw for me.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was like, I want to say what happened, but like,
not beyond that. What if I learned and from the
humble beginnings, from that abuse, that shame, that trauma.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
How am I an.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Adult who is healthy and happy and loved myself?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, but torture feels like exactly the right word. I
just didn't know one told me that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
No one ever told me that, Like I like, no one.
I've never heard an author like say it was torture.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Uh huh, it.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Was like I thought I was going to die.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes, Oh, there there have been weeks where I'm like,
I don't think I slept last night. Why am I
so stressed? Why is this so hard? Why is this
so scary? And nobody talks about it? I wonder when
I think about the way the sort of pendulum of
society swings, and how if we could have gone back
to you know, five, ten, whereever we want to pick
(04:46):
years ago when we were on an upswing. I think
back to the things you share in the book about childhood.
You know, this little kid in Mobile, Alabama who probably
felt more like a lot of us now afraid, and
I wonder it sort of personalizes even more. My first
(05:06):
question I love to ask people, which is, would your
eight or nine year old self see themselves in you
today if they got to meet, Like, if you got
to sit down with that little version of you, do
you think that child would be so blown away by
you living your life?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Wonders if she would be the eight or nine year
old version.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I wondered she'd be scared that I wondered she'd be
scared because there's like there is the fantasy that like
I definitely had as an eight nine year old, that
like this could be possible for sure. But I wonder
if I that eight nine year old would be ready
to like witness, like to understand that this is who
(05:47):
I became. I wonder she was so she was made
to feel afraid of this, and I think because she
internalized so much transphobased it. I'm I'm like, I didn't.
I've never heard someone ask the questions quite like that.
They always know what would you say to your eight
year old self? But if you met and I'm thinking,
(06:09):
and honestly, I'm like, I wonder if she'd be frightened.
I wonder if she'd be sort of in disbelief, And
but I also wonder if she'd be in awe. I
mean just the visual part. But then I think she'd
recognized me, like recognize like the spirit, because the spirit
is the same that she.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Would know very well and that and then I.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Think she would see that like so much has been
so much armor has been taken away so that that
spirit can can flow more freely and be more apparent
in the world and less sort of armored up and protected.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I love to think about it when I when I
talk to people about it, I always think like, if
I were in the totally emotionally raw sci fi movie
of my dreams, my soul today would walk on to
like a playground, you know, in Manhattan and meet up
(07:08):
with my nine year old self, and what would that
be like? And I think it's actually so profound that
you say that that little girl might be so blown
away by the possibility and maybe a little afraid of it.
It's because it's one of the things I've come to
wonder about why there is so much of a reaction
(07:30):
to trans folks, And I think about I think about
this a lot, and I think I really related it.
I'm going to show the people at home because the
book is called Transcendent, and I know, you know, when
this airs, it will have just been out for a
few weeks, So if you don't have a copy it,
what are you doing? But when I looked at the title,
I thought about it because transcendence as a concept is holy.
(07:57):
It's very spiritual. The idea that you can transcend something
is about transformation. Transformation is alchemy. Alchemy is magic. I
believe for myself, the experience of my life in our community,
and the blessings I have as a SIS person, as
(08:19):
a queer SIS person, having trans friends is that of
all of us on earth, trans people are miracles. I
think people are afraid of trans people because limits don't
exist in the same way the stories humans have told themselves,
you know, are not all that's true, and you're so
(08:41):
in touch with the essence of humanity itself is a
big concept. Freedom as a permission slip, not an idea,
and I think for people who are not free, that
is frightening.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
A lot of the reason that I'm there's the backlash
against trans people specifically and first is because we kind
of are the solution. We're the answer, right, Like if
if I can be assigned male at birth and told
I'm male and I'm supposed to, you know, dress this way,
(09:15):
act this way, live this way, and I say no, no, no, no, no, no,
that's not true.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I'm actually I was.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was assigned male, but I've always been a girl
and now I'm a woman and I can make the
choice to.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Live in that truth.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And after a lot of struggles, years of struggle that
you read about in the book, I can get to
a place where I am living in my truth and
like throw off those shackles that people who sort of
put on me. I can, I can transcend your ideas
of who you think I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And if I can do it, you as a.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
SIS person Sophia can do it, and it's not queer
sis one or a man can also do it. Doesn't
have to look like being trans, but you don't have
to subscribe to what people tell you that men and
women should be and should do. And that is a
threat to the patriarchal system, and particularly in this fascist
(10:19):
Christian nationalist moment, it is a threat to the fascism
that they're trying to.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Sort of roll in.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Patriarchy is essential to fascism, and so we see there's
I don't think this it's all connected for me. I
don't think it's a mistake that when we have all
this anti trans bigotry, there is the rolling back of
doctor frights, right, all these like hurdles to get to
getting reproductive care. Florida's it's such a great example of
(10:48):
so much of this. But in Florida, for example, not
only doctors can administer gender affirm and care when eighty
percent of transgender Floridians receive their gender from care from
nurse practitioners.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yes, so.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Effectively eight percent of trans people who live in Florida
access gender from your care.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
That's children and adults.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So that's one of those sort of you know, trap
laws that they use to kind of deny its healthcare.
And so that is not disconnected from racism from sexism.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
It's all connected.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a
word from our sponsors. The thing that you continue to
highlight in your book the ability to transcend the rules
and make something new.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But also how did this start with us? You know,
I had a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I was in the car with my mom and my
managers Morgan yesterday and we were sort of talking about,
you know, how people often don't realize something is an
issue until it affects them personally, and I what about empathy?
And then I had a moment of thinking about the
people who weren't educated or whatever. Then I was like, oh, wait,
(12:06):
am I being empathetic in this moment? Am I having
the empathy that like I'm suggesting other people should have.
And so I'm constantly like because it starts with me
and charity begins at home. So when I'm like doing
what we should be doing out there, I'm like, am
I doing it?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
How could I be more empathetic in my life?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I having a moment of like lacking empathy for people
who have been propaganda as to who.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
We were talking about My ex who just and so many.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
People who actually if they faced the reality, like particularly
white people. My ex is a white, straight, white Republican cop.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I think like if he.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Were actually to face the reality of like this structural
racism that exists in this country, how the police have
been an enforcement of that structural racism then slave patrols
and that that had and that that hasn't stopped, you know,
I meaner one time he was like, how in twenty
twenty four, how on twenty twenty four are the police
(13:13):
still a racist institution?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And like I was like, I don't know, And I
was kind of like I said it because I just
we we have you broken up? I think we had
broken up and we were at the thirty after I
break up with someone, I do thirty days no contact,
and then so it was past the thirty days, and
he was like trying to wanting to get back together
and I was just like, I can never be cool
with the police thing, and like I just let it all.
(13:39):
I hadn't said it just that way. And while we
were dating, and I was like, I still this is
the truth to me. And he was like how how
how And I was just like stop and risk is
back and he was like that's not true.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And I was like it is.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
You're a cop, you're.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
A mere like and he believed it. I was just like,
how do you not you're an actual police. You're like,
you don't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Eric Adams brought back stuff in frisk like you like
he really didn't know? Yeah, And so I was like.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I think that's one of the interesting things. When you
sit at an intersection of more experience or more wisdom,
you kind of experience these these dually weighted scales, right
Like you shouldn't in twenty twenty six have to teach
anyone like they can go out and learn. But if
we don't open the people to learning or even investigating
(14:34):
in order to be taught by teaching at all, do
we lose them?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And it's and it's frame.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
People don't even have the frame like this what is
what is abundantly clear? To me me now is that
people don't actually have because things have been so misframed,
and like, that's what I've been struggling with over the
past like three years. Like three years ago I realized
we were like we that TRANSI but lost the culture
and we were really fuch like that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I was like, oh shit, we're so For the past like.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Three years, I've been like trying to figure out how
to rhetorically sort of combat this without having conversations or
debates around my humanity.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I don't want to have a conversation on the oppressor's
terms about my right to exists myself. And so it's like,
how do I have that conversation? And the world has
kind of given me. We've gotten empirical data, right, Like,
so we have a Project twenty twenty five. We have
this current regime that it like is introduced, you know,
(15:38):
thousands of executive orders that seek to race trans people
like I product page four, Project twenty twenty five race
these words from every piece of legislation or policy. There's
just in a betteral level. Some of those words were transgender,
gender identity, reproductive rights, abortion, EI, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Right and they've gone about doing a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Like the head of the President of the Heritage Foundation
went on television.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I said that.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I was in live a few days ago and I said,
you know, Project twenty twenty five like sxty percent done. Yes,
President of the Heritage Foundation was just literally on TV
last week saying how excited he was that. You know,
he said, he said, we gave one thousand, nine hundred
and something action items for the president to do, and
Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
He's achiage about one thousand and forty five or so
of them, right, So he was on TV.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And so then I go on the view and say this,
and in the comment section this, well, someone reacted to
the video and clipped it and didn't you do the
whole thing and said it's twenty twenty six, were still
talking about products thirty five. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Girl.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I was like, girl, you're and he was a gay Republican.
I'm like, you don't know that, you're you're a man
from the Heritage Foundation, which is on TV brill open
last week. Girl.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, like out in the open air fellas, come on,
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
To me, but it's also by design, so it's by
design that people that they that they don't want us educated.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Right, Donald Trump said, I love that poorly educated.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, Ronald Reagan back in the eighties that we you know,
when they didn't want to make when all of a sudden,
you know, public funding for universities, like they limited that
limited pell grants and then allow university is just rigged
to raise the cost of going to school. It's because
they don't they want fewer people to be educated.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, they've demonized education, and more college educated people vote
Democrats and Republican, but fewer people are going to college.
It's all by design.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
We're in a really precarious situation right now. And what
this moment presents us with if we take the opportunity
though that Herid's administration probably wouldn't tap, is the understanding
like looking at like thinking about John Robertson, how this
has been, you know, forty five year project for him
(17:58):
and Heriage foundation, d year project and a lot of
their sort of wet dreams of deregulation, of rolling back abortion,
Chevron deference, all the a lot of things. Is the
Supreme Court that have happened to Supreme Court. It's in
the gutting of the administrative state rights that would regulate them.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
This is their wet dream come true. And they have
been patient.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And have kept the same goals, but like switch the
messaging up right, Like now we say, they'll say DEI Now.
It was critical race theory a few years ago. It
was affirmative action before that. It was well for queens
before that. So they maybe changed the language, but the
goals are still the same. And so then where's our
mandate for freedom for the people? Where's our mandate to
(18:45):
give power back to the people, and that in our
structures and institutions with a long term project to undo this.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
And there is really a need when when I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Apartheid, when they'm a part Africa, they wrote a new constitution.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yes, we'll be back in just a minute after a
few words from our favorite sponsors. That's part of the
thing I think we need. There has been so much evil,
you know, bigotry, hatred, racism, sexism, violence, that has organized
(19:23):
and funded itself to launch these long term plans and structures,
and a lot of us over here who just want
to love our neighbors are like la la la, Like
we got to organize and make plans in the way,
we have to be as ruthless for good as they
are for harm. And I think I think it is
(19:46):
the I do believe it is sort of the task
of our lifetime, of our generation. Certainly, I'm curious, like
because look, you and I are the same, like we
will get a big system this year. This happened, this year,
this happened. If you don't know about that, like this,
these are my favorite conversations. And I want to make
(20:09):
sure I give you your flowers in this hour and
make sure that people get to hear certain things from you.
And you said something that I'm really curious about because
you said you feel like three years ago trans folks
lost the culture. And in your book, there is so
much beauty in the dogged pursuit, in the relentlessness to
(20:30):
be an artist even when you didn't see artists like
you in the world and culture making, especially the way
so much of it starts in the trans community, in
the black community, in the gay community. How do you
think about that as an artist? What feels different than
when it was finally your time? And how do you
(20:52):
feel like we get it back?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
We don't get it back. We kep moving forward because
it was a navy weather. You know, it's visibility. Again,
it was a moment of visibility, but there wasn't. We
didn't there was an organized movement. Well we there was
progress being made because a lot of the reaction to
you know, when we think about the North Carolina HB
two Build the Bathroom Bill from twenty sixteen, that was
(21:15):
the response to a city in North Carolina that it
passed that it added trans people and gain lets build
to their human rights protections so that these are immutable
characteristics that should be covered against being discriminated against. And
so that was starting to happen on a state level.
That was starting to happen in different cities that we
(21:37):
were being covered under human rights protection and under civil
rights protection. So it become illegal to discriminate against us
for being gay, trans, LGBTQ plus.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And so that was progress. And then now the roll back.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Of that is what we're seeing with They weren't able
to do it with bathrooms because people were like that's ridiculous.
Initially they weren't, but they went to sports and that
was and they pulled tested this. They were like, of
all the trans issues, what like you know, pisces, you
off most and because so many people don't think of
trans women as women. They thought that trans people trans
(22:14):
women specifically in sports, and that was the trojan horse
that ushers in banning gender forming care and then so
many people like you know, gender firming care for children.
There's so much misinformation about that and so much misunderstanding
about what it means to be trans that that is
an old school Anita Bryant, what about the children kind
(22:36):
of argument that has been very successful at creating a
permission structure to not only take away gender froming care
for young people, but also for adults, and then to
usher in now we have bathroom bands.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Right, so you had.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So there's a dehumanization that happens from the rhetoric around
trans women in sports and then trans children mutilating children
a man in girls' sports, and it's not language, and.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's dehumanizing language when there's.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like the reality like most of the states I remember,
I don't know if there's two things I think about
when I think about trans girls in sports.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
There he was the governor definitely ruled on MSNBC.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
This is iconic video, iconic to me anyway, where the
governor of West Virginia had just signed a sports ban
banning trans girls from sports, and Stephanie Rul was like,
and he was like, you know, I used to coach
sports and we don't want anybody you know, taking advantage
and having an undo, you know, you know, doing something.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
That would be unfair.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And he was like, and she was like, are there
any examples in your state of somebody you know doing this?
And he was like, well, I don't, I don't know,
you know, do you know any trans athletes?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
And you're said, wow, not that I know of, And
he would like, well, she.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Was like, well, why are you passing this, Like you
said this, if there's no evidence that you're aware of
that you can cite of someone taking advantage and having it,
you know, or you don't even know of any trans
people in your state?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Why are you signing Why why are.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
You spending legislative time to pass this and signing it
into law? Right, especially when like you know, education, healthcare,
all the things, right, but they can pass an anti
transfield like hunt, they'll know it.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
And then so and then.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
There was I think it was was it I get
the state Fisher Wells is from.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I'm like thinking Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I may be wrong, but she Oh, there's this devastating,
beautiful yet devastating video of her testifying before her state
legislators and talking about how she the field hockey team,
how like they in middle school, the girls field hockey
team just did was non existent, but she wanted to
play field hockey, so she went and got girls and
organized and got the girls together to like form a
(24:48):
field hockey team. And they start practicing and they were
ready to play their first game. And right before the
first game, she found out that she couldn't play because
she's trans.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And she was the one who.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Like organized the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And she was like, I just want to play, you know,
I you know, and we have We're not great like
she was. It was a team. She's not about dominating
or unfair. She wanted to play with her friends. And
she was the only trans athlete that anyone knew of
in the state. And I think the lawmakers even said
how how brave she was, and then they passed the
(25:22):
band and signed it into law. Band in her this
one girl from playing from playing sports.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
One little girl in an entire state.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
But that's not that's that unusual. That's what it is.
We the NC double A said of like the what
was it fifteen.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
One hundred, five hundred and ten thousand athletes in the
NC Double A and only ten were trans? Thank you
for ten of five hundred and ten thousand. It's like,
what are we doing here? And I think it's it's
crazy to realize that the right has learned the hard way, like, well,
everybody knows a woman, everybody knows a queer person. They've
(26:02):
learned that in this sort of unknown space, so many
of us know trans people. We don't know our trans
so many of us know people like me are lucky
enough to know and openly love trans people in our lives.
And what's crazy to me is it almost seems like
they realized, Oh, because the numbers are smaller, and we
(26:22):
can make these people seem unknown.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
We can create a whole fiction. Yes, we can create
a trans boogeyman. It's full fiction. Let's make we don't
have trans people on to talk about trans people.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
We'll just like everybody.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And this is leftist right people on the left right
feeling bolded to talk about trans issues without a trans
person in sight. And everybody has an opinion, like everybody
you know. And I watched a lot of leftist media
and like and I just can't you know, I won't
name the show, but they were just like this, these
very progressive leftists we're talking about. Well, I think there
is a question about, you know, trans healthcare for young people.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I'm like, why is there a question? And why is
it your business?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Can I ask a question about that? Because here's what
drives me crazy. People don't realize gender affirming care for
kids is often letting them go to a therapist who
affirms them and calling them whenever name they.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Want, maybe throwing out their hair, maybe cutting their.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Hair, hair, a haircut, a piece of clothing. Sometimes in
their teens they go on puberty blockers. By the way,
so do so many sisk kids for a variety of
health reasons. Is nobody's business. What makes me crazy, though,
is nobody talks about gender affirming care when Matt Gates
is out there getting forty miles of botox stuck in
his face, or half the Republican electeds, by the way,
(27:37):
and probably half the Democrats too, have all had hair plugs.
Nobody complains when some rich girl's dad gets her a
set of implants for her high school graduation, or a
nose job when she turns sixteen.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Those jobs at sixteen or younger, I know it, but
it's actually but the thing is when it's not when
it's non transkits, and it's just it's like not actually
not our business. It's a decision that the child makes
with their parents and their doctor. But when it comes
to trans folks, it all of a sudden. I mean
when you this commedty case that was argued at the
Supreme Court that band gender for macare. At least the
(28:11):
decision was limited only in that particular state of thing
was Tennessee, so it's not like federal. But they were
arguing that this is new medicine that's experimental and none
of that, none.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Of that's actually true.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
It's a lie at the Supreme Court, like it was
crazy and the the and the argument was that this
is not discrimination on the because of sex, because of
gender discrimination, because both trans boys and trans girls can't
get hormones or puberty blockers insane fits. Girls and boys
(28:43):
can can if you're a social puberty and you need
puberty blockers. If you need for whatever reason hormones and
male hormones and you're assigned male or female homans, you
can get those, but if you're trans, yep, you can't.
But that's not gender discrimination.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, Joe Rogans, you're talking about how he's on tea
and it's changed his life, and I'm like, hey, Joe Rogan,
you have gender affirming care and.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Joe Rogan, but it's also talking talked about on this podcast,
how he loves transformed, how he loves transported.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
He's had a few guys come on and talk about
their addiction to.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Trans So he's okay to fetishize people and also take
their health care, but not let them have healthcare agency.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Absolutely, they're connected.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
They're connected and in the right I believe in the
right wing imagination when they were doing that. Don't say
gay stuff in Florida and like any mission of trans
anything in school is grooming because they in the Republican
imagination trans transit is only not always.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Sexual, yes, and queerness too, because.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
They're watching the transporn because we're not watching it. I'm
fifty four years old. I know a lot of trans people.
I don't know any trans women or men. I don't
know any trans people who watch Transform. I know a
lot of straight men, and I can't anybody who they
are straight whatever, they identify it straight, straight, identify it.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Sure, there are a lot of them who watch. They're
the ones who watch in transport.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And it was the second most search porn category of
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yes, it was the.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Most legislatively repressive year for trans people ever. Yes, these
things are connected.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I am having such a good time talking Deliver, and
I just I can't let her go. This will be
the end of part one of our episode, and we
will be back for a part two to get into
all the specifics on the book and so much more.
Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to this week's work in progress. Friends, we are
joined by a personal hero of mine, both as an
(00:21):
artist and as an incredible advocate who fearlessly stands up
and out and loud and proud for her community and
for the rest of us too. Today we are joined
by none other than Laverne Cox. She is here to
talk about her new book, Transcendent, which is one of
(00:42):
the more beautiful things I've read in a long time.
And you know Laverne from history making milestones, all the
Emmy nominations. The magazine covers her breakout role in Orange
is the New Black that transformed transgender representation and pop culture,
and all of the incredible things that she's done since
I mean my God, if I read her whole bio,
We're going to be here for an hour before I
(01:03):
even get her on the show. She has been such
a I mean my God, like a beacon of light
in a world that has not often understood her. She
has broken barriers. She has led both as a leader
and a culture maker, and she has helped to shift
(01:24):
the world around her for the better and through her acting,
her producing, her activism and now transcendent, she is going
even farther, reflecting on family, identity, faith, trauma, healing, and ambition,
the pressure that comes with being the first. And she's
sharing so many parts of her remarkable journey with us
in a way that I am just absolutely in awe of.
(01:47):
So let's dive in and hear about how Laverne is
going about sharing her story, continuing to be an activist
in twenty twenty six, when it's more dangerous than ever
for trans people to be visible, and where she's finding joy.
Let's dive in with Leverne. I have to tell you yes,
(02:20):
and I would love if, depending on how your week looks,
to ask you a few more questions about this. But
the TLDR is, I'm getting close to finishing my first
book and had no idea it would be so hard
or such actual torture. And I feel like you coming
(02:40):
this week, in this moment of this dumpster fire of
a fucking year with this book, like you. You feel
like my fairy godmother right now, just being like, Oh,
you can finish your book and you can say the things,
so thank you you.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Said you're almost done? What like what, babe, you're done
with the first draft.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I'm done with the first draft. I'm now in that
phase of editing, you know. I wondered how I would
do it, and then I realized I had far too much.
And then I've had to cut some things that I
love for length, which is hard. And then there's the
full story, and then there's the world where people like
(03:22):
us who are who don't become famous from writing, but
are famous and then write a book can't exactly always
tell the full story.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I tried to protect people by changing names and stuff,
but I just didn't think there was a point to
write it if I wasn't going to like, yes, go there,
what's the point Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
So I was like, if I'm going to do this,
it's going to be raw for me.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was like, I want to say what happened, but like,
not beyond that. What if I learned and from the
humble beginnings, from that abuse, that shame, that trauma.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
How am I an.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Adult who is healthy and happy and loved myself?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, but torture feels like exactly the right word. I
just didn't know one told me that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
No one ever told me that, Like I like, no one.
I've never heard an author like say it was torture.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Uh huh, it.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Was like I thought I was going to die.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yes, Oh, there there have been weeks where I'm like,
I don't think I slept last night. Why am I
so stressed? Why is this so hard? Why is this
so scary? And nobody talks about it? I wonder when
I think about the way the sort of pendulum of
society swings, and how if we could have gone back
to you know, five, ten, whereever we want to pick
(04:46):
years ago when we were on an upswing. I think
back to the things you share in the book about childhood.
You know, this little kid in Mobile, Alabama who probably
felt more like a lot of us now afraid, and
I wonder it sort of personalizes even more. My first
(05:06):
question I love to ask people, which is, would your
eight or nine year old self see themselves in you
today if they got to meet, Like, if you got
to sit down with that little version of you, do
you think that child would be so blown away by
you living your life?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Wonders if she would be the eight or nine year
old version.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I wondered she'd be scared that I wondered she'd be
scared because there's like there is the fantasy that like
I definitely had as an eight nine year old, that
like this could be possible for sure. But I wonder
if I that eight nine year old would be ready
to like witness, like to understand that this is who
(05:47):
I became. I wonder she was so she was made
to feel afraid of this, and I think because she
internalized so much transphobased it. I'm I'm like, I didn't.
I've never heard someone ask the questions quite like that.
They always know what would you say to your eight
year old self? But if you met and I'm thinking,
(06:09):
and honestly, I'm like, I wonder if she'd be frightened.
I wonder if she'd be sort of in disbelief, And
but I also wonder if she'd be in awe. I
mean just the visual part. But then I think she'd
recognized me, like recognize like the spirit, because the spirit
is the same that she.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Would know very well and that and then I.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Think she would see that like so much has been
so much armor has been taken away so that that
spirit can can flow more freely and be more apparent
in the world and less sort of armored up and protected.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I love to think about it when I when I
talk to people about it, I always think like, if
I were in the totally emotionally raw sci fi movie
of my dreams, my soul today would walk on to
like a playground, you know, in Manhattan and meet up
(07:08):
with my nine year old self, and what would that
be like? And I think it's actually so profound that
you say that that little girl might be so blown
away by the possibility and maybe a little afraid of it.
It's because it's one of the things I've come to
wonder about why there is so much of a reaction
(07:30):
to trans folks, And I think about I think about
this a lot, and I think I really related it.
I'm going to show the people at home because the
book is called Transcendent, and I know, you know, when
this airs, it will have just been out for a
few weeks, So if you don't have a copy it,
what are you doing? But when I looked at the title,
I thought about it because transcendence as a concept is holy.
(07:57):
It's very spiritual. The idea that you can transcend something
is about transformation. Transformation is alchemy. Alchemy is magic. I
believe for myself, the experience of my life in our community,
and the blessings I have as a SIS person, as
(08:19):
a queer SIS person, having trans friends is that of
all of us on earth, trans people are miracles. I
think people are afraid of trans people because limits don't
exist in the same way the stories humans have told themselves,
you know, are not all that's true, and you're so
(08:41):
in touch with the essence of humanity itself is a
big concept. Freedom as a permission slip, not an idea,
and I think for people who are not free, that
is frightening.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
A lot of the reason that I'm there's the backlash
against trans people specifically and first is because we kind
of are the solution. We're the answer, right, Like if
if I can be assigned male at birth and told
I'm male and I'm supposed to, you know, dress this way,
(09:15):
act this way, live this way, and I say no, no, no, no, no, no,
that's not true.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I'm actually I was.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was assigned male, but I've always been a girl
and now I'm a woman and I can make the
choice to.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Live in that truth.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And after a lot of struggles, years of struggle that
you read about in the book, I can get to
a place where I am living in my truth and
like throw off those shackles that people who sort of
put on me. I can, I can transcend your ideas
of who you think I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
And if I can do it, you as a.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
SIS person Sophia can do it, and it's not queer
sis one or a man can also do it. Doesn't
have to look like being trans, but you don't have
to subscribe to what people tell you that men and
women should be and should do. And that is a
threat to the patriarchal system, and particularly in this fascist
(10:19):
Christian nationalist moment, it is a threat to the fascism
that they're trying to.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Sort of roll in.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Patriarchy is essential to fascism, and so we see there's
I don't think this it's all connected for me. I
don't think it's a mistake that when we have all
this anti trans bigotry, there is the rolling back of
doctor frights, right, all these like hurdles to get to
getting reproductive care. Florida's it's such a great example of
(10:48):
so much of this. But in Florida, for example, not
only doctors can administer gender affirm and care when eighty
percent of transgender Floridians receive their gender from care from
nurse practitioners.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yes, so.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Effectively eight percent of trans people who live in Florida
access gender from your care.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
That's children and adults.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So that's one of those sort of you know, trap
laws that they use to kind of deny its healthcare.
And so that is not disconnected from racism from sexism.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
It's all connected.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a
word from our sponsors. The thing that you continue to
highlight in your book the ability to transcend the rules
and make something new.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But also how did this start with us? You know,
I had a moment.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
I was in the car with my mom and my
managers Morgan yesterday and we were sort of talking about,
you know, how people often don't realize something is an
issue until it affects them personally, and I what about empathy?
And then I had a moment of thinking about the
people who weren't educated or whatever. Then I was like, oh, wait,
(12:06):
am I being empathetic in this moment? Am I having
the empathy that like I'm suggesting other people should have.
And so I'm constantly like because it starts with me
and charity begins at home. So when I'm like doing
what we should be doing out there, I'm like, am
I doing it?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
How could I be more empathetic in my life?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I having a moment of like lacking empathy for people
who have been propaganda as to who.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
We were talking about My ex who just and so many.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
People who actually if they faced the reality, like particularly
white people. My ex is a white, straight, white Republican cop.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I think like if he.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Were actually to face the reality of like this structural
racism that exists in this country, how the police have
been an enforcement of that structural racism then slave patrols
and that that had and that that hasn't stopped, you know,
I meaner one time he was like, how in twenty
twenty four, how on twenty twenty four are the police
(13:13):
still a racist institution?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And like I was like, I don't know, And I
was kind of like I said it because I just
we we have you broken up? I think we had
broken up and we were at the thirty after I
break up with someone, I do thirty days no contact,
and then so it was past the thirty days, and
he was like trying to wanting to get back together
and I was just like, I can never be cool
with the police thing, and like I just let it all.
(13:39):
I hadn't said it just that way. And while we
were dating, and I was like, I still this is
the truth to me. And he was like how how
how And I was just like stop and risk is
back and he was like that's not true.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And I was like it is.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
You're a cop, you're.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
A mere like and he believed it. I was just like,
how do you not you're an actual police. You're like,
you don't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Eric Adams brought back stuff in frisk like you like
he really didn't know? Yeah, And so I was like.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I think that's one of the interesting things. When you
sit at an intersection of more experience or more wisdom,
you kind of experience these these dually weighted scales, right
Like you shouldn't in twenty twenty six have to teach
anyone like they can go out and learn. But if
we don't open the people to learning or even investigating
(14:34):
in order to be taught by teaching at all, do
we lose them?
Speaker 3 (14:39):
And it's and it's frame.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
People don't even have the frame like this what is
what is abundantly clear? To me me now is that
people don't actually have because things have been so misframed,
and like, that's what I've been struggling with over the
past like three years. Like three years ago I realized
we were like we that TRANSI but lost the culture
and we were really fuch like that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I was like, oh shit, we're so For the past like.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Three years, I've been like trying to figure out how
to rhetorically sort of combat this without having conversations or
debates around my humanity.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I didn't want to.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I don't want to have a conversation on the oppressor's
terms about my right to exists myself. And so it's like,
how do I have that conversation? And the world has
kind of given me. We've gotten empirical data, right, Like,
so we have a Project twenty twenty five. We have
this current regime that it like is introduced, you know,
(15:38):
thousands of executive orders that seek to race trans people
like I product page four, Project twenty twenty five race
these words from every piece of legislation or policy. There's
just in a betteral level. Some of those words were transgender,
gender identity, reproductive rights, abortion, EI, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Right and they've gone about doing a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Like the head of the President of the Heritage Foundation
went on television.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I said that.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I was in live a few days ago and I said,
you know, Project twenty twenty five like sxty percent done. Yes,
President of the Heritage Foundation was just literally on TV
last week saying how excited he was that. You know,
he said, he said, we gave one thousand, nine hundred
and something action items for the president to do, and
Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
He's achiage about one thousand and forty five or so
of them, right, So he was on TV.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And so then I go on the view and say this,
and in the comment section this, well, someone reacted to
the video and clipped it and didn't you do the
whole thing and said it's twenty twenty six, were still
talking about products thirty five. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Girl.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I was like, girl, you're and he was a gay Republican.
I'm like, you don't know that, you're you're a man
from the Heritage Foundation, which is on TV brill open
last week. Girl.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, like out in the open air fellas, come on,
it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
To me, but it's also by design, so it's by
design that people that they that they don't want us educated.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Right, Donald Trump said, I love that poorly educated.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, Ronald Reagan back in the eighties that we you know,
when they didn't want to make when all of a sudden,
you know, public funding for universities, like they limited that
limited pell grants and then allow university is just rigged
to raise the cost of going to school. It's because
they don't they want fewer people to be educated.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, they've demonized education, and more college educated people vote
Democrats and Republican, but fewer people are going to college.
It's all by design.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
We're in a really precarious situation right now. And what
this moment presents us with if we take the opportunity
though that Herid's administration probably wouldn't tap, is the understanding
like looking at like thinking about John Robertson, how this
has been, you know, forty five year project for him
(17:58):
and Heriage foundation, d year project and a lot of
their sort of wet dreams of deregulation, of rolling back abortion,
Chevron deference, all the a lot of things. Is the
Supreme Court that have happened to Supreme Court. It's in
the gutting of the administrative state rights that would regulate them.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
This is their wet dream come true. And they have
been patient.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And have kept the same goals, but like switch the
messaging up right, Like now we say, they'll say DEI Now.
It was critical race theory a few years ago. It
was affirmative action before that. It was well for queens
before that. So they maybe changed the language, but the
goals are still the same. And so then where's our
mandate for freedom for the people? Where's our mandate to
(18:45):
give power back to the people, and that in our
structures and institutions with a long term project to undo this.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
And there is really a need when when I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Apartheid, when they'm a part Africa, they wrote a new constitution.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yes, we'll be back in just a minute after a
few words from our favorite sponsors. That's part of the
thing I think we need. There has been so much evil,
you know, bigotry, hatred, racism, sexism, violence, that has organized
(19:23):
and funded itself to launch these long term plans and structures,
and a lot of us over here who just want
to love our neighbors are like la la la, Like
we got to organize and make plans in the way,
we have to be as ruthless for good as they
are for harm. And I think I think it is
(19:46):
the I do believe it is sort of the task
of our lifetime, of our generation. Certainly, I'm curious, like
because look, you and I are the same, like we
will get a big system this year. This happened, this year,
this happened. If you don't know about that, like this,
these are my favorite conversations. And I want to make
(20:09):
sure I give you your flowers in this hour and
make sure that people get to hear certain things from you.
And you said something that I'm really curious about because
you said you feel like three years ago trans folks
lost the culture. And in your book, there is so
much beauty in the dogged pursuit, in the relentlessness to
(20:30):
be an artist even when you didn't see artists like
you in the world and culture making, especially the way
so much of it starts in the trans community, in
the black community, in the gay community. How do you
think about that as an artist? What feels different than
when it was finally your time? And how do you
(20:52):
feel like we get it back?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
We don't get it back. We kep moving forward because
it was a navy weather. You know, it's visibility. Again,
it was a moment of visibility, but there wasn't. We
didn't there was an organized movement. Well we there was
progress being made because a lot of the reaction to
you know, when we think about the North Carolina HB
two Build the Bathroom Bill from twenty sixteen, that was
(21:15):
the response to a city in North Carolina that it
passed that it added trans people and gain lets build
to their human rights protections so that these are immutable
characteristics that should be covered against being discriminated against. And
so that was starting to happen on a state level.
That was starting to happen in different cities that we
(21:37):
were being covered under human rights protection and under civil
rights protection. So it become illegal to discriminate against us
for being gay, trans, LGBTQ plus.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And so that was progress. And then now the roll back.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Of that is what we're seeing with They weren't able
to do it with bathrooms because people were like that's ridiculous.
Initially they weren't, but they went to sports and that
was and they pulled tested this. They were like, of
all the trans issues, what like you know, pisces, you
off most and because so many people don't think of
trans women as women. They thought that trans people trans
(22:14):
women specifically in sports, and that was the trojan horse
that ushers in banning gender forming care and then so
many people like you know, gender firming care for children.
There's so much misinformation about that and so much misunderstanding
about what it means to be trans that that is
an old school Anita Bryant, what about the children kind
(22:36):
of argument that has been very successful at creating a
permission structure to not only take away gender froming care
for young people, but also for adults, and then to
usher in now we have bathroom bands.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Right, so you had.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
So there's a dehumanization that happens from the rhetoric around
trans women in sports and then trans children mutilating children
a man in girls' sports, and it's not language, and.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's dehumanizing language when there's.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like the reality like most of the states I remember,
I don't know if there's two things I think about
when I think about trans girls in sports.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
There he was the governor definitely ruled on MSNBC.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
This is iconic video, iconic to me anyway, where the
governor of West Virginia had just signed a sports ban
banning trans girls from sports, and Stephanie Rul was like,
and he was like, you know, I used to coach
sports and we don't want anybody you know, taking advantage
and having an undo, you know, you know, doing something.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
That would be unfair.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
And he was like, and she was like, are there
any examples in your state of somebody you know doing this?
And he was like, well, I don't, I don't know,
you know, do you know any trans athletes?
Speaker 3 (23:44):
And you're said, wow, not that I know of, And
he would like, well, she.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Was like, well, why are you passing this, Like you
said this, if there's no evidence that you're aware of
that you can cite of someone taking advantage and having it,
you know, or you don't even know of any trans
people in your state?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Why are you signing Why why are.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
You spending legislative time to pass this and signing it
into law? Right, especially when like you know, education, healthcare,
all the things, right, but they can pass an anti
transfield like hunt, they'll know it.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
And then so and then.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
There was I think it was was it I get
the state Fisher Wells is from.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I'm like thinking Kentucky.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I may be wrong, but she Oh, there's this devastating,
beautiful yet devastating video of her testifying before her state
legislators and talking about how she the field hockey team,
how like they in middle school, the girls field hockey
team just did was non existent, but she wanted to
play field hockey, so she went and got girls and
organized and got the girls together to like form a
(24:48):
field hockey team. And they start practicing and they were
ready to play their first game. And right before the
first game, she found out that she couldn't play because
she's trans.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And she was the one who.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Like organized the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And she was like, I just want to play, you know,
I you know, and we have We're not great like
she was. It was a team. She's not about dominating
or unfair. She wanted to play with her friends. And
she was the only trans athlete that anyone knew of
in the state. And I think the lawmakers even said
how how brave she was, and then they passed the
(25:22):
band and signed it into law. Band in her this
one girl from playing from playing sports.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
One little girl in an entire state.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
But that's not that's that unusual. That's what it is.
We the NC double A said of like the what
was it fifteen.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
One hundred, five hundred and ten thousand athletes in the
NC Double A and only ten were trans? Thank you
for ten of five hundred and ten thousand. It's like,
what are we doing here? And I think it's it's
crazy to realize that the right has learned the hard way, like, well,
everybody knows a woman, everybody knows a queer person. They've
(26:02):
learned that in this sort of unknown space, so many
of us know trans people. We don't know our trans
so many of us know people like me are lucky
enough to know and openly love trans people in our lives.
And what's crazy to me is it almost seems like
they realized, Oh, because the numbers are smaller, and we
(26:22):
can make these people seem unknown.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
We can create a whole fiction. Yes, we can create
a trans boogeyman. It's full fiction. Let's make we don't
have trans people on to talk about trans people.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
We'll just like everybody.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And this is leftist right people on the left right
feeling bolded to talk about trans issues without a trans
person in sight. And everybody has an opinion, like everybody
you know. And I watched a lot of leftist media
and like and I just can't you know, I won't
name the show, but they were just like this, these
very progressive leftists we're talking about. Well, I think there
is a question about, you know, trans healthcare for young people.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I'm like, why is there a question? And why is
it your business?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Can I ask a question about that? Because here's what
drives me crazy. People don't realize gender affirming care for
kids is often letting them go to a therapist who
affirms them and calling them whenever name they.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Want, maybe throwing out their hair, maybe cutting their.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Hair, hair, a haircut, a piece of clothing. Sometimes in
their teens they go on puberty blockers. By the way,
so do so many sisk kids for a variety of
health reasons. Is nobody's business. What makes me crazy, though,
is nobody talks about gender affirming care when Matt Gates
is out there getting forty miles of botox stuck in
his face, or half the Republican electeds, by the way,
(27:37):
and probably half the Democrats too, have all had hair plugs.
Nobody complains when some rich girl's dad gets her a
set of implants for her high school graduation, or a
nose job when she turns sixteen.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Those jobs at sixteen or younger, I know it, but
it's actually but the thing is when it's not when
it's non transkits, and it's just it's like not actually
not our business. It's a decision that the child makes
with their parents and their doctor. But when it comes
to trans folks, it all of a sudden. I mean
when you this commedty case that was argued at the
Supreme Court that band gender for macare. At least the
(28:11):
decision was limited only in that particular state of thing
was Tennessee, so it's not like federal. But they were
arguing that this is new medicine that's experimental and none
of that, none.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Of that's actually true.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
It's a lie at the Supreme Court, like it was
crazy and the the and the argument was that this
is not discrimination on the because of sex, because of
gender discrimination, because both trans boys and trans girls can't
get hormones or puberty blockers insane fits. Girls and boys
(28:43):
can can if you're a social puberty and you need
puberty blockers. If you need for whatever reason hormones and
male hormones and you're assigned male or female homans, you
can get those, but if you're trans, yep, you can't.
But that's not gender discrimination.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, Joe Rogans, you're talking about how he's on tea
and it's changed his life, and I'm like, hey, Joe Rogan,
you have gender affirming care and.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Joe Rogan, but it's also talking talked about on this podcast,
how he loves transformed, how he loves transported.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
He's had a few guys come on and talk about
their addiction to.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Trans So he's okay to fetishize people and also take
their health care, but not let them have healthcare agency.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Absolutely, they're connected.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
They're connected and in the right I believe in the
right wing imagination when they were doing that. Don't say
gay stuff in Florida and like any mission of trans
anything in school is grooming because they in the Republican
imagination trans transit is only not always.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Sexual, yes, and queerness too, because.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
They're watching the transporn because we're not watching it. I'm
fifty four years old. I know a lot of trans people.
I don't know any trans women or men. I don't
know any trans people who watch Transform. I know a
lot of straight men, and I can't anybody who they
are straight whatever, they identify it straight, straight, identify it.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Sure, there are a lot of them who watch. They're
the ones who watch in transport.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
And it was the second most search porn category of
twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yes, it was the.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Most legislatively repressive year for trans people ever. Yes, these
things are connected.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I am having such a good time talking Deliver, and
I just I can't let her go. This will be
the end of part one of our episode, and we
will be back for a part two to get into
all the specifics on the book and so much more.
Host
Sophia Bush
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