May 27, 2026 • 55 mins
You know Tan France for transforming style on "Queer Eye," but stepping onto the global stage as TV's first queer, brown, Muslim man made him fear for his safety. Now a decade later, Tan opens up about the rewards and revelations that came out of his wild ride with the Fab Five.
Plus, Tan talks trading in the title of fashion expert for several unexpected roles, including theater producer, onscreen drug lord, and hilarious gavel wielding judge!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress this week, friends, we are
in for such a treat together. One of my favorite
(00:22):
TV hosts is here to talk about ten iconic years
of a major project and the projects that are coming
up next. You guessed it today. Tan is probably one
of the most recognizable figures in global pop culture, known
not just for transforming style but how people see themselves,
like really see themselves and feel about themselves. But before
(00:44):
Queerye made him a household name, he'd built a career
in fashion from the ground up. And now after Queer Eye,
he's expanding his curiosity about storytelling and his reach through
his own production company and continuing to shape cultural conversations
around identity representation. And he's doing it with that signature
(01:07):
warmth and humor and personal flare that we all love
so much. He's also taking risks. Tan is doing things
that scare him, including acting, and his passion for risk
taking is leading him everywhere from TV screens to the
theater district in London. Tan is really just getting started,
(01:29):
I think, because his perspective is so rooted and lived experience,
and his unique and authentic voice resonates well beyond even
his own expectations, and that is lucky for us. Let's
dive in with Tan France. Well, Hi, I'm so glad
(01:57):
I got to meet the baby.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's see it, that's it. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
We're back. I can't believe that long it's been since
I've seen you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The last time I saw you, we were at brunch.
I do know if you remember this, you and I
went for brunch race on sunset watch your baker something something.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And the cappuccino maker.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I remember, Yeah, wonderful, loved it. Gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You also, I have to like say, for all the
friends at home, I don't know what amazing like special
magic happened that day, but truly I remember thinking, this
is why everyone cries on the show. You were telling
me about your book, and you told me a story.
I think you were writing your first book at the time,
and you told me this story, and before I knew it,
(02:44):
we'd gone from giggling to you had me in full
tears at brunch and I was like, what is happening?
Is this what happens on Queer Eye?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It was so like it gave me a giggle. And
also I was like, ah, I didn't know I was
going to be so today.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
That I don't think it's ever intended. But almost every
one of my friends has had the same experience saying
it's just a TV show. Obviously, it's just a TV show.
But then when we're in person, that duality of I
am anyone who knows, who knows out of playful person
of a cloud. I'm not a very serious person, but
somehow inevitably during most hangouts we have a tearful moment.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You and I are the same. I am similar in
the way that I'm incredibly goofy. I'm always laughing about something,
you know. Also, I come from a long line of
like insane Italian people from New Jersey. I'm very sarcastic,
and for some reason, you know, I'll be at a
party and I wind up in the corner having a
(03:48):
conversation with someone and I'm their therapist for an hour.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Same same. But I love that. I actually love that.
I don't want to. My mom constantly is saying, what
are you going to grow up? Just at some point
you could just grow up, Like not everything has to
be a lark. But I love that I have a
grown up I love the playful s, but I also
don't I don't want people to think they can't tell
(04:11):
me something or ask for advice, and so I will
always give an opinion and it will often lead to tears.
And I don't know why it happens to almost everyone
I know, but I would rather that those people think
he's one. Nope, you can't, I can't take anything seriously.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, well, I actually think for a lot of artists.
I think a lot of people who are artistic are
by nature more empathetic, and so something happens even in
the middle of a party. If someone has something going on,
it's like I can feel it, and the more it
comes out, the more I'm going, are you okay? And
then we're just in it. Do you feel like it's
(04:47):
that thing?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? And I also think when when you the sense it,
you're doing a disservice to just pretend it's not happening
because it's not the right setting. I think there's no
such thing as the right thing. I could figure out.
As you said, you'll go into a corner. You sat
in the corner of a room and you're having a
full of hot jo. There's always a space for it.
I could always make space for it. So and I
(05:08):
think that just creative people in general, as you say,
were empathetic people. I do feel that that is very
to believe the case. I think that to be a
creative person, you've got to be ready, in touch with
your emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, do you think if you look back? And I
love asking people this question, but I really love asking
parents this question because I think when you are relating
to your kids and helping them grow, you interact with
your childhood self in a way. And I wonder if
you think about knowing these things about yourself as you
(05:42):
do as an adult. If you looked back and we
got to, you know, go through the wardrobe as it were,
and like hang out with ten at nine or ten
right now, would you see those qualities in him? Like
who was that little boy? What does life look like?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
You know? The crazy thing is is that I don't
think obviously what I'd like to believe. I'm matured, but
I don't think that the person I am is so
far removed from the person I was I was. Anyone
who can't tell by the sound if you're just watching
this i am a homosexual or even my voice gives
(06:21):
it away. But I wasn't more effeminine as a child.
I was more massline presenting as a child than I
am now. It's just because now uninhibited and I'm not
trying to hide anything. But as a kid, I was
always playful, but I was always really compassionate, really caring,
and I was a real caretaker As a kid, I
(06:43):
was the youngest, so of my siblings, I've got three
other siblings. My parents were together, and so I should
have had the freedom to just be the spoil youngest child.
And I have no get me wrong, my siblings still
spoil me and give me a pass whereas the elders
wouldn't get a pass. But I was still wanting to
(07:05):
make sure my mom was okay. Like my main my
main resting state was is my mom and my sister okay?
Do they feel do they feel happy? If they don't
feel happy, what can I do to make them happy?
The boys I didn't care that much about. I loved
my brother's book. We fought like we fought like brothers.
We were very violent brothers with each other. We love
(07:27):
each other now still, but we were very valent brothers.
But if you were to have seen me. It was
just a tiny version of me.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Now well, and then you have the whole layer of
space and place. I'm cackling. Well, I cackled earlier when
you said, if you can't tell from listening to me
that you're going to say, I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
English, any American, the question is that you South Africa,
Australian or English. I'm like, so clearly English English.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But growing up, you know, north of London, y, you
had that hybrid culture because you grew up in the
UK and you are Pakistani, and so I imagine it's so
much easier to know what that meant to your childhood.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Now, when you are part of a very very small
minority group in a town that is very much the same,
you have to grow up really quickly because you are
faced with the world a much earlier time than most.
(08:41):
For example, I swear this is not going to be
a racing but I'm just going to tell you how
I feel. I don't think many Caucasian kids in my
hometown ever had to really think about where did I
come from? What's my place in this town? Am I
safe in this town? It's safe? And I'm talking about physical,
(09:02):
literal physical safety. I don't think that ever had to
be a consideration for them. Really a very very young auge,
and we start at school early, so by the time
we were five or six, we're in primary school. It's
not like in America where kindergartens Bible six and so
(09:22):
you learn very early on by five or six, am
I safe? For? Am I not safe? If? Is this home?
Or is this not home? Do I belong here? Do
I not belong here? And those existential questions are strange
for such a young child, I think, and it really
does inform how you navigate this world. And so so, yeah,
(09:43):
you're absolutely right being different being Pakistani. But also I
knew I was queer from a very young age. I
don't remember a time I wasn't queer. I don't think
there was ever a time when I thought I'm attracted
to the people that my brothers were attracted to. Though
I did that, I never about that. And so for
all those reasons, you're trying to play a completely different
(10:05):
person as a six year old, which is very complicated.
It's compligated. You're trying to be white even though you're
so clearly brown. You're trying to be straight even though
you're so clearly queer. You're trying to speak English and
that's not your first language, and you're trying really hard
to make it so that you don't the way that
you've got an accent, but that's not your language, and
(10:28):
so of course you've got an accent. So you are
playing so many complicated roles at such a very early age.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, to have to learn to code switch like that
as a kid is crazy. And you know, I think
about this a lot. There's all these variations of passing, right,
like straight passing or white passing or cispassing or whatever
that benefit people. But they benefit people just because they
(10:59):
remove layer of threat. They essentially get you closer to
the safety that a white CIS straight man just implicitly has.
But I will never forget the moment when it dawned
on me that I was not safe in the world
the way my male friends were. I know exactly how
(11:20):
old I was when the difference of safety for girls
dawned on me. I was seven years old.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And I was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And then you learn that lesson at an increasing sort
of speed and force through all your teenage years.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And it's enforced in a greater way as you go and.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So I think it's really interesting that queer kids, kids
of color, like there's just this whole experience that people
have when they're not kind of the tip of the
privileged sphere, and nobody wants to talk about it. But
to your point, I don't actually think it's like, I
get that it's hard, and I get that everybody has
(12:01):
a sad story, like that's universally true. But I actually
think if we don't talk about it in a normalized fashion,
we avoid it because it's sad. And then I'm like, well,
aren't we just perpetuating the problem.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, exactly. I mean I have these conversations with my
niece and nephews, and I will have these conversations with
my kids. I have kids who are the kids of
parents who are raising their kids in Utah, like these
these concerns will come up. I want you to know
that you can talk about it was taboo to talk
about as a kid. You just would not talk about
it back eighties, But now I just think, no, I'm
(12:36):
going to talk about this. Is my kids that make
it clear it's okay to feel this way. I understand
you feel this way. What his work through those emotions,
I think.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
That's really excellent. If i'm if I may tell you
what I think about parenting. I think that's so great
because what I know as an adult, and I wonder
if you also have this as we're all, you know,
doing the responsible thing and going to therapy and trying
to not make the same mistakes are parents and their
parents made. Is I realized that the lack of talking
(13:05):
about a lot of this stuff made me internalize it
and think it was me. Yeah, it gave me all
this shame about well, maybe something's wrong with me. Well
maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I just can't figure
it out, instead of hey, kid, this is a societal
thing and if you're aware of it, you can navigate
(13:26):
it and you won't take it on as a personal feeling.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, because people not talking about it,
there was nobody I knew that was queer as a kid.
Maybe a character on TV, but we didn't have many
quick characters on TV in the eighties. And so, yeah,
you think that you are the problem in Oh my gosh,
I'm the only one in the world quash it, figure
(13:49):
it out. It must be my problem. And so yeah,
I think we just opened up the conversation. I think
that a lot of kids would feel a lot safer.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. This segment is brought to you by our
friends at Miracle Grow. There is something so special about
bringing loved ones together to share a meal, and for me,
(14:17):
it's even more meaningful when I'm cooking with ingredients straight
from my own garden. I started small. I planted a
little bit of basil, a little bit of sage, a
little bit of rosemary, and then I went a little crazy.
And when I decided to become a bee keeper, I
knew that I needed things I didn't just want to
(14:38):
cook with, but that would be really good for my bees.
Be friendly plants, if you will, including coastal rosemary and
pride of Madeira and lavender. Even the flowers that bloom
seasonally on some of my citrus trees the bees love.
And I really can taste the infusion of all those
things in my honey. That's also the coolest thing. Can
(15:00):
I cook with herbs from my garden for people, but
I can actually give honey away. Truly, I've never felt
more connected to the earth. But like most things, growing
doesn't always go perfectly. My bees are perfect, to be clear,
But lately I've had some issues with pests in my tomatoes.
They're driving me crazy. And I don't know if it's
(15:22):
the weather, but my basil is not exactly living it's
best life. I am determined, however, to win the battle
of the garden. I know I can do it, just
like I know you guys can too. I've learned it's
actually these moments of frustration that make gardenings so rewarding,
(15:43):
because when you get to the other side, when your
plants are thriving, when your bees are happy, it's the
ultimate joy. It's also the ultimate work in progress. And
I think that's what makes my garden my sanctuary. When
I'm in there, challenges don't bother me. They actually inspire me,
and when I manage to solve a problem, I feel
kind of incredible. I like being in touch with the seasons,
(16:07):
and I like getting to know what my plants need.
Like I might repot, I might adjust my watering schedule.
I might even supplement a little bit of magic and
feed my plants with miracle grow plant food and see
what happens from learning tricks about when to prune and
when not to to figuring out when my plants need
(16:30):
a little boost. I like discovering new strategies so I
can always be improving. It's the little things that actually
add up and make a huge difference, and soon that
little routine becomes something bigger. My time in the garden
becomes part of the rhythm of my life. It's a
way for me to take care of the planet and
(16:51):
my bees, but it's also a way for me to
take care of me. It becomes almost a meditation or
a relation ship with nature, and that is something that
I really cherish. Depending on my work schedule, I might
be out there really early in the morning, or get
a break at dusk and be able to go out
(17:12):
and peek around and check on all my little green babies.
I love being in a rhythm with my garden because
it makes me feel like I'm in a rhythm with nature.
It's my time to slow down. I get creative, I
reconnect with the outdoors, and ultimately I get to connect
with the people I share it with. There's nothing I
love more than serving up a big meal and laughing
(17:35):
with friends, and when they ask how I made something,
getting to tell them that there's ingredients I grew in
their dinner, and I get to send them home with
a little jar of honey for tea the next day.
It's just a really special way to love people. I
think food is a love language, and I think your
garden can be a resource for that because, let me
(17:56):
tell you what, when my garden salid hits the dinner table,
it tastes way better knowing the journey that it took
to get there. So if you're struggling with your own garden,
I'm telling you stick with it. Instead of getting frustrated,
get inspired. Sometimes the best part of gardening isn't perfection,
it's the process. Hadumraclegrow dot com to check out all
(18:19):
of their easy to use products and start your growth
journey today. Do you kind of now look back and
see what the markers were for you? How were you
figuring out your queer identity? How were you leaning in
or leaning out of it as a kid? You know,
I know that you said that clothing was kind of
(18:41):
it was like a confidence costume in a way, right,
So how did you start to express yourself and figure
this out as you grew up?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
At first very privately? I remember this so distinctly. We
had something called any We call them net curtains or
lace curtains. I don't think it ever hit America at
this trend. It was. It was a thing that just
always was, it seems. So, you know how you have
your curtains in America and sometimes you have shears for
the daytime so you can open your thick curtains and
(19:11):
your shares. There, we don't really have shears. We had lace.
It looked like brider.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh on the little bars, like the little metal bits
in the window. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Well, I was wound down to the ground, and so
in private I could act out my fantasies of being
a bride, and I would under this curtain and just
use this as my veil as I walked down the
aisle to its chosen to marry me. And so in
private I got to act out who I truly was.
(19:41):
And then in the house we were We mostly wore
South Asian clothes, which is modest clothing at home, but
I had Friday clothes. At school, we had dressed down Friday,
so we had some Friday clothes, and so at home
I was constantly putting on clothes that were not appropriate
from my family's home. But it was only where I
could show I'm not just a straight brown Asian kid
(20:06):
in this household. Like I feel like I'm a product
of both, a product of England and Pakistan, and I
want to show that in how I communicate. And I
couldn't I have the words to articulate it. I couldn't
communicate my emotions as a clothes weather thing. And I
never thought that that would be where my career would
end up. But it makes absolute sense that this kid
(20:29):
at six or seven who was changing multiple times a
day for every activity or meal, I was changing my
clothes and reworking a lot. It makes sense that that
person understands the power of clothing more than anyone. Yeah,
and that's absolutely turned out.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean it's incredible. You know when I just
I just motored through the last season of care I
can't belave what's over. I can't talk about it as
a viewer. I'm so sad. I know what it's like,
truly after ten seasons to be like, I'm ready for
my next thing. But I'm like, but we weren't ready.
But it's wild to watch people really come back to life.
(21:13):
You know, you watch the light pop back into someone's eyes.
You see a person who's been judging themselves, you know,
internalizing whatever their own critiques or personal shame look like.
And then you give them a whole new moment and
they they see themselves again. You know why? Why do
(21:33):
you think clothes are that powerful?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So I'll start this by saying, I do think that
I was the luckiest of the foul five. I do
I think that I had I'm sure everyone will feels
this way about that got gree I can only already
speak to mine. I think that clothes do something that
none if the other catcheries can do for you. And
(21:59):
I think it's because all of us, whether we accept
it or not. And if you're at home saying oh
I don't feel this way, that may be the case
for you, But I don't know if I believe it
almost anybody. I don't think anybody walks to life thinking
I think my body is perfect, and I think that
I look amazing every time I look in the mirror.
I think every one of us has something about us
(22:24):
that we look at. The life just makes it sat
into goot, even if we don't hate it. I don't
hate my body. I don't hate my body, but there
are certain things in that body that I'm like, Gosh,
I wish those muscles were bigger. I wish that I
wasn't so fatigue. There's always something, And so I think
that my category afforded me a luxury that none of
the others did, which is that I get to really
(22:48):
change the way you view yourself by just switching out.
Even just something as simple as a T shirt, a
pair of pants, just something so simple can make you
view yourself so differently. And I think the reason why
people respond so well to it in person, we call
them our heroes. I know you don't, but for anyone
who doesn't watch Queer, we call them our heroes. And
(23:11):
I think that the reason why our heroes feel this
way is for the first time somebody's saying, I want
you to look at the positive. Only I want and
I'm looking at the positive, and I'm seeing the beauty
in you and your appearance and your body, and I
want to highlight the best of that. And I think
that so often we think people are looking at us negatively.
(23:32):
They're critiquing the things that they're seeing, the things that
we see in ourselves, which they seldom all lit. It's
so rare somebody's thinking the thing that you think about yourself. Yes,
And so I think that having somebody there who I
would like to believe in a safe space, I try
my best. You don't see this on camera, but I
try my best beforehand to make it very clear. I
am your greatest champion here. I want the best for you.
(23:55):
If you don't feel good in this, we won't even
show it on camera. There have been so many times
where it puts something somebody in, something that didn't fit,
that they were uncomfortable in. I would sit turned to
production and say, we're not using that cut that completely.
We're going to do something else because I don't ever
want them to feel like the thing that they feel
so secure about I'm about to show the world.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And so I think that I created a safe space
to say, I know that you've never let yourself give
something else to dry because you're too scared it's going
to fail. Fail quotes with me and I will find
a win through whatever failure we come through. And I
think that I think that that's the beauty of what
(24:36):
my category afforded every one of our heroes is a
safe space where they could at least just try and look,
sometimes we failed. It's a really hard thing to do.
You're not going to win everyone. But I think the
majority of them saw massive changes in their self esteem
from what we did with them.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, it's just so cool. What was it like to
be shed people through that experience kind of you know,
coming out from behind the curtain, if you will, for
the heroes, you know, the subjects of the show, and
also to know that you were going to be put
on TV for the whole world to see. You know,
(25:18):
you were really going to take up properly the mantle
of one of the Fab five, which means one of
the queers, like you know. Was that Yeah? Yeah, for
your community in particular, was that scary?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
It was a really strange feeling. Gosh, it was such
It's so weird to talk about because it was nine
years ago when it started.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, which feels like one hundred years.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
My gosh, life changes so much ten years. So when
when I first got the job and we started shooting
the show, I was really really nervous, and I think
that I had a very different experience of what the
show was and what it could mean to all the others.
And I know we all talked about it the first
season came out that my my, my entry point into
(26:11):
this was very different from everybody else's. Everybody else just
got to be excited. My fear was there hasn't been
like anybody liked me on TV before, and so when
you take that and then you show this person for
the first time, this person does represent a massive community.
There are millions of South Asians, and there weren't There
(26:34):
were like three of us on TV in the US.
There were no queer South Asians, so you're the only one.
So I knew what to expect. I knew that there
were so many people who are going to hate what
I represented, I hate what I stood for, were scared
of what I represented to the world, and so when
(26:56):
the show came out, I know that the rest of
them like amazing. It was huge. And every time when
you ask her would come out and go, oh my god,
please don't anyone see it, Please don't anyone see it.
If anyone sees it, that means that they're going to
find out who I am. And I know it was
some stupid but when I got here, I thought it's
gonna be a tiny show. I'm going to do it.
I didn't even tell my family. I thought, well, this
(27:19):
was years ago, this was not this not to denigrate Netflix,
but at that time, no one I knew I had.
No one in England was talking about Netflix. They had
like a couple of big shows, Orange Is the New
Black and House of Cards. They never had a nonscripted show.
It wasn't isn't what it is now, And so I thought,
most people in England are never going to see this,
and if they see Netflix, they're not going to watch
(27:39):
a Quei show. Who's watching Quei show? And so it
was just something crazy to do for us, someone that
I would tell my grandkids about, never thinking that my
family's going to see this. And so as soon as
it started to really pick up, which was the second day,
I started to find it, thinking, shit, I'm gonna get
(27:59):
so much shit. I get so much shit, And then
I did, and it was My experience was just very different,
very different. It was very different. Jonathan and Cromo at
the time, we're like, we we see what you're having
to represent, and we don't Cramo understudy it because Cramo
experienced it on the real world back in the day.
He was like the first openly quit black Man on
(28:22):
a major show. He said, it's terrifying. It it is.
It's a bizarre feeling. So when everyone was watching with
such joy and such exam and it was lovely, but
internally I was having a fuller meltdown.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Oh my god, you sweet soul, you really kept it together.
You just like you've you've French talked and kept it
push in.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Do you know, let me talk about the French talk pick.
I found that the yoga generation.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
So during COVID there was this article I think it
was about like the New York Times or something that said,
the French talk is a distinction for millennials. The yoga
generation is not doing it so breadchtoking. If you're not breachtooking,
you're a gen Z. And I just thought, and basically,
if gen Z was making fun of it, why would
people ever do this? And I just think, even if
(29:12):
it's not for your younger generation, it's so much better
than just a big baggy topic gives you shape and
so you may not love a French talk. It it
made me something like I even if somebody doesn't know
my name, they know the French talk guy. And let
me tell you that's that is a mad me. It
(29:34):
really is. I love that I went. Every now and
then when I'm on vacation, I have people who don't
speak English who were like, they don't know my name,
but guy, And that I think is such a mark
of the mark we left on the world. There was
certain things that Auntie with avocados. At the time, you
(29:56):
feel like a shit people are making fun. But really
I look back thinking I was known for something. That's
while that I was known for something.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors, Well, listen,
I don't know what's going on in your house with
the kiddos, but I can tell you we're teaching the
kids about a French chuch in this house.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So thank you work.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You're very welcome, Thank you so much. I'm like, no, no,
you need a little just like a little style angle,
do you know.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
I'm sure you've seen this all over. But the kids,
the younger kids are really leading into are you do
you say your age or no? Yeah, okay, how old
are you please?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm forty three age, I'm not yeah not gen z.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So our our When we were kids, we were wearing
baggy ship like we were kids in the nineties, like.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We were wearing shit, oh my god, Jenko, Yeah, all
that we were.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Really he's wearing it now and I'm not going to
quick I'm like, yeah, we did that too. But one
day you're going to look back and think I needed shape. Yeah,
I just looked like a lot. It was all just
so big, and I had these you have these tiny
little legs and that makes it looky but tiny. It's
all a lot, and I just think, yeah, enjoying it.
(31:18):
I'm telling you, by the time you get to buy it,
you can to look back and think, I wish I'd
just showed a bit of shape.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I get that. I get that. How do you how
do you think about it going forward? Because you're doing
all these different things. You know, you surprised us all
your acting on Deli Boys, which is so fun and
such a departure from who you are. You know, when
you think about that, when you think about your production
(31:45):
company obviously called French Duck Media, how could it not be?
You know, when you when you're talking about bringing a
theater show to London, I mean, what what does the
landscape look like for you right now? Because it looks
like you're trying all all of the things, and many
of them are so far outside of fashion.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah this might sound ludicrous, but I'm trying to distance
myself from the style and fashion stuff because it was
a part of my life for a very long time.
But I don't know how you'll feel about me saying this,
or the audience in general, you feel about me seeing
(32:24):
this book. I was so much more than that, and
I get it all, and I felt I still feel
stifled by thinking, Yeah, I care about clothes, but I
don't care that much about clothes. I care about how
they feel. But I kept Okay, here's how I want
to answer this more succinctly. I guess I care about
(32:45):
how clothes make me feel. I don't really care about
everybody else's fashion. Whenever I see somebody, the first thing
they say is I was really nervous about what I
was going to wear because I knew I was going
to see you today. I don't care where it makes
you feel good. That's all that mattered. If you feel that,
I swear to God, I'm not looking at you judging
(33:06):
what you're wearing. I swear to God that that's not
the case. I will judge you for other things. If
you're being addicted to someone, I'll judge you for that.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Oh, if you're rude to the waiter, I'll.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Judge you for that, and I'll tell you. But when
it comes to your clothes, I swear to that I'm
not really commenting. If it makes you feel good, that's
all that matter is. And I would like to believe.
But even on the queer eye, Okay, there are some things,
I'm like, I know I can make you feel better.
I know you love this, but I know I can
get a version of that that's going to make you
feel even better. But I'm the whole Even on queer
I'm like, I'm not trying to give you my clothes,
(33:37):
but to give you what makes sense for you. So
the reason why I'm doing other things other than fashion
is I get fashion opportunities regularly. Do you want to
host this thing? You want to do a podcast about
what people want? Now? Stop, it's not really what I'm mean.
I really don't. I don't care what they want. I've
got I've got Instagram, on Google whatever, I'll google or
(34:00):
and I'll will have my own opinions. I don't really
talk them about it. And so I wanted after Queer
Eye and Next in Fashion, another show I do on Netflix.
I wanted to make it clear that that's the one
side of me, but no one's hopefully that one dimensional.
And I really the acting stuff I was really passionate
(34:23):
about because it really challenges me on where I or
in unscripted. I feel like I got it. I know
it's so, I got it. I know how to be
on camera. I know how to be on camera. It's
not hard. I just am a lively person. I'm an
(34:44):
energetic person and I'm playful. That's an easy job for me.
I can do it with my eyes closed and I
don't need to prep. I'm so comfortable with that. I
don't My jobs have never been that easy. The reason
why I loved At the Start, the reason why I
love Next at the Style, it's because I found it
very difficult. It was so not comfortable. Oh I got
(35:06):
so comfortable that I'm like, I've got to do something else.
And so I've been taking acting classes for a long term.
I'd never talked about this, but let me just say.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
This tell me everything.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I was breaking it, which might be an English term.
Do you know what breaking it? Me? Okay, breaking it?
And so I shot season one season two. We shot
season one season two together. We didn't know which episodes
were going to be which season. And then I got
signed by a big holiday agency it's called wm ME,
and my agent was wonderful. We were gonna you were
(35:39):
going to do a run, big restaal. Netflix was giving
it everything, and I was so scared. I was like,
I don't know how to do a talk show. You
kidding me? You mean be entertaining on a talk show live?
I don't think so. So my agent at the time
gave me the best advice I've ever been given, which was,
(36:01):
take an acting class in your hometown. I live in
Salt Lake. Take an acting class for a few weeks.
You are going to be put in such uncomfortable situations
and people that might know you from a queer eye,
and that's going to really help you be better when
you do these, uh these press hits. And so I did.
I did my first press drinkit and I hated it,
(36:23):
and I stopped and I didn't know what to do.
And then I started taking acting classes and it was
so hard. I was so embarrassed that where I had
been out for a couple of months, So and everyone
seemed to know it at that point. It wasn't a
sleeper hit. It was a hit. And so I heard
about this class and everyone knew and they could Oh my.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
God, that's my worst name.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It was so mortifying. And then this didn't teacher gives
me this scene and I have to do it in
front of all these people who know me and know
my voice and my inner my inner thoughts because I
give everything on queer Ie. You know everything about me
on quere I, so so I feel so I felt
so vulnerable, But then I started to love it until
(37:04):
you don't. And so for eight eight and a half years,
I've been taking these classes and I just find it
so challenging and difficult and exciting.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I love that long.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Then I insisted on auditioning, and I self taped, and
then I did any person audition, which where I vomited,
which was the most terrified. I vomited into a trash
can because I was the only place I could vomit.
And then I did my audition. I've beaten TV for
eight years. At that point, I feel so confident on
a set. I walk onto an nonscripted sound, I'm like,
(37:34):
what do you need me? To do playing be a clown,
absolutely no problem whatsoever. Talk for three hours, got it?
But do this accent, play a character, do this dialogue
that's not yours in front of these Disney executives I
who just want to see if you could do this
because your son, France, why are you doing this Cockney accent?
(37:55):
That's right? But I did it, and then I went
to set. It was the best week of my career ever.
I've ever being happier in any job I've ever had
in my life. And I just thought, I want to
do this for the rest of my life. And it
might not work, but yeah, I might never get another job,
(38:15):
but I'm going to try even if I'm going to try.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
But I think that's part of it, you know, it's
we're so lucky to be at the time we're in.
When I first started acting, you know, I started auditioning
right as soon as I got into college.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Were you already an actress? We take classes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I had no interest.
I thought acting was absolutely ridiculous. And then I had
an arts requirement and I had to do a play,
and I was like, I love this. I decided to
pursue it, and then I wound up on you know,
my first show at twenty one. Yeah, And for the
longest time it was like, well, if you do TV,
(38:58):
you'll never make movies. And if you if you make movies,
then you know, you know, of course you nobody's going
to let you go and just do one season of
a TV show. You have to sign on forever. And
then oh, if you're an actor, you can't be a writer.
And you know, if you want to paint, you have
to paint in secret under a pseudonym. You know. It
was this whole crazy thing. And now I feel like
(39:19):
we're in this really great renaissance of creativity where people say, oh,
if you're interested in that and you have time for it.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, and how gorgeous you know, why not?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
So, what's what's happening with the play you're producing? The
key word it's going up in London? Are you going
to be in it?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I'm going to be Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I wasn't sure if we were getting a surprise.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Oh gosh, no theater. It sounds absolutely terrifying. Anyone that's
have you ever done data on the West End outside
of school? Like once you became yes, wow, okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I I And by the way, people were like, do
a fun little show off Broadway, and I was like,
I'm going to go to the West End. Like I
just was like, I want to do it, and it's
it is so fabulous and it is the hardest, craziest
thing I've ever done. I mean also, I think just
at the time I did it, when the pandemic was
still raging and literally half my company went down, I
(40:21):
mean people were not well. And then it was also
like suddenly the whole business was on strike. And so
then I was just sitting at home being like, well,
this is weird. So I went from eight shows a
week to being in my house being like, huh, what
do I do now? And it was really the first
time I'd ever It was the first time in my
(40:43):
life I wasn't attached to a series or a film
or I just was off and I was like, I
don't know how I feel about this.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'll start another podcast. I will say I've never been
and I don't think I ever will be interested in
being in a play. They have a skill set that
I would even pretend I could make work, and so
I would never dream of thinking I could do that.
(41:10):
But The P Word is a play that I heard
about two years ago. I was fascinated by the P word.
I don't know if you know what that means. In England,
there's a horrible term for my people, which is Paki.
It's such a disgusting slur that has been thrown around
brown people since my people came to the UK in
the fifties, and so that was a term I got
(41:33):
thrown at me a thousand times when I lived there.
And so the fact that they dared to call the
play their P word, I thought was brave, and I
just thought the story was beautiful. It's about two Pakistanis
who come together who are navigating the world being we
are or gay in a brown world, in a brown
(41:55):
Muslim world. And I lived that. That was my experience
so publicly, and so to be able to offer my position,
to offer my so that I'll put my weight behind it,
it felt almost I don't feel obligated at all. I'm
so proud to be part of it, but it feels
like an obligation of mine. I was one of the
(42:16):
very first. I just think I should use my power
for good, and so I want to try and encourage
people to go and see this place because it's just
a beautiful story. It's not a deadly down a story
telling let's called the P word be though it's about
two round queer people. It's a beautiful story. And I've
hoped we'll just go and see this wonderful beater. Let
(42:37):
me tell you, it's so rare to see. Actually, I
don't think I've ever seen it. A South Asian lead
a show in the UK just doesn't happen. And see
these two people do this, I just think is incredible.
I really want people to give them a chance because
there are amazing South Asian creatives that just don't get
a chance. And this show one and Olivia, which in England,
(43:01):
I don't know what the American version is. It's it's
it holds even more weight than a Tony. It's just
it's an Olivia. It's just like it's here to call
up success in theater and it won it. And so
I'm really hoping that this with the second one, more
people will go and see it. And I just want
to say this, which is which I want to be
(43:21):
really frank about. I have a large white audience and
I want the white audience to know this is for
them to I didn't an Instagram post a few months ago,
and I've tried to do it somewhat often to say,
here are some shows with brown people and my people
in but they're not just for us. They're English shows.
(43:43):
They're speaking English, like Deli Boys a show play this Assassin.
I'm playing a Cockney assassin. But and it's almost exclusively
the second season they have more Caucasians in what the
first season was mostly a South Asian cast, but American
Indians and back Denny's was all in English. But I
think most didn't give it a chance because they thought, oh,
(44:05):
this is a brown show. It's not that a brown
show for you too. If you ever seen that show Atlanta,
I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And I'm just you're wicked, like absolutely fabulous.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
But I'm like, that's that wasn't I'm sure when they
weren't were making it, they weren't thinking, well, the queer brown,
what's some community it's gonna love this. No, they were
just making a wonderful show that it just so happened
to love. And I really am trying to explain to
my audience, and I sound angry when I'm saying it,
but it's just passion. I've watched white shows my entire life,
love them, and I've found common ground with those characters.
(44:40):
You can find common ground with us. We're regular people.
We're nice, we're fun, we're entertaining, we're horrible, we're mean,
we're full, we're fully formed people. You will find something
that you can connect within any one of our shows,
I promise. So that's why that's why I'm a producer
on the P word. I just I think that the
(45:02):
assumption is, oh, he's brown, so you should pots of it.
I know. I want to be a pot to it
because I want to tell the Whites watch this, you
will learn to me for it from it, and hopefully,
especially you Brits, if you've ever thought of shouting the
P word at one of us, maybe this show will
make you reconsider.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah. I love that. It is so interesting. Like, I
don't know why that. I don't know why so many
people who look like me have that reaction, because you know,
we've always sort of expected everyone to watch our stories,
and I don't know why that's not a two way street,
(45:41):
or there's this idea that you know it's it's not
for us, Like, none of my friends of color have
been like Marvel's not for me except for Black Panther,
Like what superhero stories are lit? Like what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah? Now, don't get me wrong. People of color always
notice that things that aren't aren't jokes for us. In
mom there's certain things that come up be like, oh,
what brown people don't do that. It's okay, you're learning
something new. It's fine to educate yourself. Yeah, it's funny.
When I first came on the scene, there were a
(46:18):
lot of people who were like, I didn't know that
you guys were just like us, And they were talking
about the gay thing and the brown thing and the mustard. Yeah. Yeah,
we're just like you guys. Just you have some works
that are just specifically you. We've got some works that
are specifically yours. But on the whole, I'm just like you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, we have
you seen. I'll have to text it to. One of
my favorite people on TikTok is this hilarious black woman
who goes the white people phrases I learned today, and
(47:00):
she goes through them list by list like she does
a full list once a week, and I mean she
makes me cry, Oh my god. And she'll just be like,
I'm going to use that one, and the ones she
really likes. She'll repeat some times and like try to
get the sound of it right, and I just like,
I scream laughing. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
One thing I loved about Qui I is the CRAMO
and I, especially the last few seasons, we each other
each other every now and they'd say black people because.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
We don't do whatever that thing is, or we don't
get the things. We're like, it's gotta be a white
person thing.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Like, what is this?
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You did that? One of the things I'm really loving.
Bless you for the new show for our friends at Home.
Tan has a new series on YouTube called Honorable Gaze,
and you're basically it's so genius. You're doing what my
friends and I do all day long, which is like,
did you see this insane Reddit thread? And we read
them to each other and it's the am I the
(48:02):
asshole thing? And on one of them recently, I won't
give it away, I promise it's not a spoiler, but
you're talking to two comedians reading through these things.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
One of the ways Mexican. His name's Erics Daniel, Yes,
and you and you.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Look at the other comedian Rob and you go, sorry,
but this is this is white people. Brown people do
not do this.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I was going to say, this is some white people.
So good the amount of times Croward did it, we
do on Honorable Gaze, it's always the dynamic between kids
and parents is that's the differentiator. A lot of the time,
it's that there's certain ways that brown parents or black
(48:47):
parents are with their kids that's very different from how
white parents are with white kids, or vice versa with
their parents. And so that's the time we'll both find
that non white people say, oh, that's a white person
thing because we don't interact with our families the same
way Honorable Gaze. So, okay, can I just wax on
about honorable Gaze for a seconds?
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Please? I love it so much.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
So I wasn't a YouTuber, never really been a YouTuber,
but my agents were like, what do you want to
do next? And I was like, I want I think
I work well in an ensemble. Actually, I would love
your opinion. Do you know what. It's not very often
I get to talk to somebody who's been in an ensemble,
ensembles and what I want to you, however you answer this,
(49:36):
I think that I work better in an ensemble. I
love bouncing off people. I'm not trying to beat the staff.
So when Next in Fashion first came to me, this
was like six months after where I came out, I
was offered a new show and the show was for
me to host solo. And I said to the executive
(49:56):
a Netflix, I was like, I really like working with
other people, and I think, and I know why you're saying,
do it solo. I don't need that. I don't need
to be the star. I will fully share it with
whoever else you want, and I buy is who it
should be. I don't I think that being the star.
I think it's better. It makes you the star when
(50:18):
you're with multiple people and you will get to shine
and you're helping other people shine. And I want to
know if you feel the same way, because you've done
a lot of ensemble stuff. Do you typically push it?
I would look for you to be honest. Do you
typically push to be on your own or do you
think that you are better with others?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
I love being with people, with people I am. I
love being on a team, like, I'm not interested in
having it. If I have it all by myself, I'd
rather have less of a good thing than all of
something by myself. Yeah agree, And for me, the good
thing is being with people, So I've I've really learned
that thing. Where like even on a show, I don't
(50:57):
I don't care about billing somebody wants it's the first
title card. The agents can fight about that shit. But
if there's a male lead and a female lead, if
I've signed on first, my one non negotiable is I
will be number one on the cost.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
If I'm a female. I feel exactly the same way.
And I know exactly what you mean about it just changes,
it changes everything for sure. With this one with Honorable Gaze,
I wanted to have fun. I loved getting to do
Queer Eye for so long, and I my resting state
is I just want to play and so Honorable Gays,
(51:30):
I'm just gonna set the scene for everyone. Yes, yes,
yes it is. Yeah. So Honorable Gaze is a YouTube series.
We've got a full season of eight episodes, but they
will drop every two weeks. And it's me and two
honorable Gays. I play a judge, they play both sides
of an argument. Eric's Adaniel Rob Anderson, who are incredible
(51:53):
online comics, but they also do tours and we read
am I the arshole Reddit stories the kind of stuff.
They're so varied, but a bridesmaid falling out with another bridesmaid,
or the bride parents who are dating but their kids
are also so dating. That's truly one of the stories.
Roommate dynamics. So these stories have submitted that we discussed
(52:18):
the story, but it's also animated, and I so, I'm
the one who created the show, and I really wanted
animation to bring these stories to life. And I think
the animation is so funny. This is so funny, feels
at so good at it, And so we read these
stories and then we decide who's the asshole. This three
stories every episode, it's only fifteen minutes and it's so
quick paced, and it was some of the most fun
(52:39):
I've had in quite some time. I absolutely loved it.
And bodies are so damn funny, and I'm really hoping
this give us some opportunity to do I'm sure they
both want to do TV and more toures. I'm like,
please that make these boys stars. They are so talented.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
They are hilarious. Okay, well, I am so thrilled people
can tune into Honorable Get on YouTube. You guys, I
got a sneak peek at a bunch of episodes. You're
not prepared, They're perfect. I want to talk to you
more about that in a special little something coming up.
But before I let you go for today, I must
ask you my very favorite question, Dan France, What in
(53:15):
this moment when you kind of look at the landscape
of life, whether it's parenthood, all these production adventures, what
feels like you're work in progress?
Speaker 2 (53:29):
My work you progress? Right now? Is my personal life?
Weirdly enough, career you never know what's going to happen,
and that ebbs and flows. It's what do I want
for the future of myself. I have spent on my children.
We're currently considering a massive move part runtly. We've been
(53:51):
in Utah for nineteen years. I built a dream house
here three years ago, and I thought that this was
where I will retire and my life will be complete.
But I but now it's more of a working progress.
Now it's a what more joy can we get out
(54:12):
of this life? What more adventure can we get out
of this life, what helps I want my kids to
experience And so my working progress, weirdly enough, is what
future do I want for my family that I can control?
And what does that look like next?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
That's amazing, that's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's really exciting. It's terrifying. Yeah, I did a massive move.
I moved from the UK to the US and then
to Utah, like their massive moves, and I loved everything
I ever knew, and I'm so scared doing it in
middle age, but I'm like, why not. I'm relatively young,
and if I don't now, I'm probably not going to
make such a big life in my sixties. So now
(54:53):
seems at the right time.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Thanks terrifying, But let's seehere it goes.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
We'll have to offline about where we're going.
Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress this week, friends, we are
in for such a treat together. One of my favorite
(00:22):
TV hosts is here to talk about ten iconic years
of a major project and the projects that are coming
up next. You guessed it today. Tan is probably one
of the most recognizable figures in global pop culture, known
not just for transforming style but how people see themselves,
like really see themselves and feel about themselves. But before
(00:44):
Queerye made him a household name, he'd built a career
in fashion from the ground up. And now after Queer Eye,
he's expanding his curiosity about storytelling and his reach through
his own production company and continuing to shape cultural conversations
around identity representation. And he's doing it with that signature
(01:07):
warmth and humor and personal flare that we all love
so much. He's also taking risks. Tan is doing things
that scare him, including acting, and his passion for risk
taking is leading him everywhere from TV screens to the
theater district in London. Tan is really just getting started,
(01:29):
I think, because his perspective is so rooted and lived experience,
and his unique and authentic voice resonates well beyond even
his own expectations, and that is lucky for us. Let's
dive in with Tan France. Well, Hi, I'm so glad
(01:57):
I got to meet the baby.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's see it, that's it. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
We're back. I can't believe that long it's been since
I've seen you.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The last time I saw you, we were at brunch.
I do know if you remember this, you and I
went for brunch race on sunset watch your baker something something.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And the cappuccino maker.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I remember, Yeah, wonderful, loved it. Gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You also, I have to like say, for all the
friends at home, I don't know what amazing like special
magic happened that day, but truly I remember thinking, this
is why everyone cries on the show. You were telling
me about your book, and you told me a story.
I think you were writing your first book at the time,
and you told me this story, and before I knew it,
(02:44):
we'd gone from giggling to you had me in full
tears at brunch and I was like, what is happening?
Is this what happens on Queer Eye?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It was so like it gave me a giggle. And
also I was like, ah, I didn't know I was
going to be so today.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
That I don't think it's ever intended. But almost every
one of my friends has had the same experience saying
it's just a TV show. Obviously, it's just a TV show.
But then when we're in person, that duality of I
am anyone who knows, who knows out of playful person
of a cloud. I'm not a very serious person, but
somehow inevitably during most hangouts we have a tearful moment.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
You and I are the same. I am similar in
the way that I'm incredibly goofy. I'm always laughing about something,
you know. Also, I come from a long line of
like insane Italian people from New Jersey. I'm very sarcastic,
and for some reason, you know, I'll be at a
party and I wind up in the corner having a
(03:48):
conversation with someone and I'm their therapist for an hour.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Same same. But I love that. I actually love that.
I don't want to. My mom constantly is saying, what
are you going to grow up? Just at some point
you could just grow up, Like not everything has to
be a lark. But I love that I have a
grown up I love the playful s, but I also
don't I don't want people to think they can't tell
(04:11):
me something or ask for advice, and so I will
always give an opinion and it will often lead to tears.
And I don't know why it happens to almost everyone
I know, but I would rather that those people think
he's one. Nope, you can't, I can't take anything seriously.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, well, I actually think for a lot of artists.
I think a lot of people who are artistic are
by nature more empathetic, and so something happens even in
the middle of a party. If someone has something going on,
it's like I can feel it, and the more it
comes out, the more I'm going, are you okay? And
then we're just in it. Do you feel like it's
(04:47):
that thing?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? And I also think when when you the sense it,
you're doing a disservice to just pretend it's not happening
because it's not the right setting. I think there's no
such thing as the right thing. I could figure out.
As you said, you'll go into a corner. You sat
in the corner of a room and you're having a
full of hot jo. There's always a space for it.
I could always make space for it. So and I
(05:08):
think that just creative people in general, as you say,
were empathetic people. I do feel that that is very
to believe the case. I think that to be a
creative person, you've got to be ready, in touch with
your emotions.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, do you think if you look back? And I
love asking people this question, but I really love asking
parents this question because I think when you are relating
to your kids and helping them grow, you interact with
your childhood self in a way. And I wonder if
you think about knowing these things about yourself as you
(05:42):
do as an adult. If you looked back and we
got to, you know, go through the wardrobe as it were,
and like hang out with ten at nine or ten
right now, would you see those qualities in him? Like
who was that little boy? What does life look like?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
You know? The crazy thing is is that I don't
think obviously what I'd like to believe. I'm matured, but
I don't think that the person I am is so
far removed from the person I was I was. Anyone
who can't tell by the sound if you're just watching
this i am a homosexual or even my voice gives
(06:21):
it away. But I wasn't more effeminine as a child.
I was more massline presenting as a child than I
am now. It's just because now uninhibited and I'm not
trying to hide anything. But as a kid, I was
always playful, but I was always really compassionate, really caring,
and I was a real caretaker As a kid, I
(06:43):
was the youngest, so of my siblings, I've got three
other siblings. My parents were together, and so I should
have had the freedom to just be the spoil youngest child.
And I have no get me wrong, my siblings still
spoil me and give me a pass whereas the elders
wouldn't get a pass. But I was still wanting to
(07:05):
make sure my mom was okay. Like my main my
main resting state was is my mom and my sister okay?
Do they feel do they feel happy? If they don't
feel happy, what can I do to make them happy?
The boys I didn't care that much about. I loved
my brother's book. We fought like we fought like brothers.
We were very violent brothers with each other. We love
(07:27):
each other now still, but we were very valent brothers.
But if you were to have seen me. It was
just a tiny version of me.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Now well, and then you have the whole layer of
space and place. I'm cackling. Well, I cackled earlier when
you said, if you can't tell from listening to me
that you're going to say, I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
English, any American, the question is that you South Africa,
Australian or English. I'm like, so clearly English English.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But growing up, you know, north of London, y, you
had that hybrid culture because you grew up in the
UK and you are Pakistani, and so I imagine it's so
much easier to know what that meant to your childhood.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Now, when you are part of a very very small
minority group in a town that is very much the same,
you have to grow up really quickly because you are
faced with the world a much earlier time than most.
(08:41):
For example, I swear this is not going to be
a racing but I'm just going to tell you how
I feel. I don't think many Caucasian kids in my
hometown ever had to really think about where did I
come from? What's my place in this town? Am I
safe in this town? It's safe? And I'm talking about physical,
(09:02):
literal physical safety. I don't think that ever had to
be a consideration for them. Really a very very young auge,
and we start at school early, so by the time
we were five or six, we're in primary school. It's
not like in America where kindergartens Bible six and so
(09:22):
you learn very early on by five or six, am
I safe? For? Am I not safe? If? Is this home?
Or is this not home? Do I belong here? Do
I not belong here? And those existential questions are strange
for such a young child, I think, and it really
does inform how you navigate this world. And so so, yeah,
(09:43):
you're absolutely right being different being Pakistani. But also I
knew I was queer from a very young age. I
don't remember a time I wasn't queer. I don't think
there was ever a time when I thought I'm attracted
to the people that my brothers were attracted to. Though
I did that, I never about that. And so for
all those reasons, you're trying to play a completely different
(10:05):
person as a six year old, which is very complicated.
It's compligated. You're trying to be white even though you're
so clearly brown. You're trying to be straight even though
you're so clearly queer. You're trying to speak English and
that's not your first language, and you're trying really hard
to make it so that you don't the way that
you've got an accent, but that's not your language, and
(10:28):
so of course you've got an accent. So you are
playing so many complicated roles at such a very early age.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, to have to learn to code switch like that
as a kid is crazy. And you know, I think
about this a lot. There's all these variations of passing, right,
like straight passing or white passing or cispassing or whatever
that benefit people. But they benefit people just because they
(10:59):
remove layer of threat. They essentially get you closer to
the safety that a white CIS straight man just implicitly has.
But I will never forget the moment when it dawned
on me that I was not safe in the world
the way my male friends were. I know exactly how
(11:20):
old I was when the difference of safety for girls
dawned on me. I was seven years old.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And I was like, oh.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And then you learn that lesson at an increasing sort
of speed and force through all your teenage years.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And it's enforced in a greater way as you go and.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So I think it's really interesting that queer kids, kids
of color, like there's just this whole experience that people
have when they're not kind of the tip of the
privileged sphere, and nobody wants to talk about it. But
to your point, I don't actually think it's like, I
get that it's hard, and I get that everybody has
(12:01):
a sad story, like that's universally true. But I actually
think if we don't talk about it in a normalized fashion,
we avoid it because it's sad. And then I'm like, well,
aren't we just perpetuating the problem.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, exactly. I mean I have these conversations with my
niece and nephews, and I will have these conversations with
my kids. I have kids who are the kids of
parents who are raising their kids in Utah, like these
these concerns will come up. I want you to know
that you can talk about it was taboo to talk
about as a kid. You just would not talk about
it back eighties, But now I just think, no, I'm
(12:36):
going to talk about this. Is my kids that make
it clear it's okay to feel this way. I understand
you feel this way. What his work through those emotions,
I think.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
That's really excellent. If i'm if I may tell you
what I think about parenting. I think that's so great
because what I know as an adult, and I wonder
if you also have this as we're all, you know,
doing the responsible thing and going to therapy and trying
to not make the same mistakes are parents and their
parents made. Is I realized that the lack of talking
(13:05):
about a lot of this stuff made me internalize it
and think it was me. Yeah, it gave me all
this shame about well, maybe something's wrong with me. Well
maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I just can't figure
it out, instead of hey, kid, this is a societal
thing and if you're aware of it, you can navigate
(13:26):
it and you won't take it on as a personal feeling.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, because people not talking about it,
there was nobody I knew that was queer as a kid.
Maybe a character on TV, but we didn't have many
quick characters on TV in the eighties. And so, yeah,
you think that you are the problem in Oh my gosh,
I'm the only one in the world quash it, figure
(13:49):
it out. It must be my problem. And so yeah,
I think we just opened up the conversation. I think
that a lot of kids would feel a lot safer.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. This segment is brought to you by our
friends at Miracle Grow. There is something so special about
bringing loved ones together to share a meal, and for me,
(14:17):
it's even more meaningful when I'm cooking with ingredients straight
from my own garden. I started small. I planted a
little bit of basil, a little bit of sage, a
little bit of rosemary, and then I went a little crazy.
And when I decided to become a bee keeper, I
knew that I needed things I didn't just want to
(14:38):
cook with, but that would be really good for my bees.
Be friendly plants, if you will, including coastal rosemary and
pride of Madeira and lavender. Even the flowers that bloom
seasonally on some of my citrus trees the bees love.
And I really can taste the infusion of all those
things in my honey. That's also the coolest thing. Can
(15:00):
I cook with herbs from my garden for people, but
I can actually give honey away. Truly, I've never felt
more connected to the earth. But like most things, growing
doesn't always go perfectly. My bees are perfect, to be clear,
But lately I've had some issues with pests in my tomatoes.
They're driving me crazy. And I don't know if it's
(15:22):
the weather, but my basil is not exactly living it's
best life. I am determined, however, to win the battle
of the garden. I know I can do it, just
like I know you guys can too. I've learned it's
actually these moments of frustration that make gardenings so rewarding,
(15:43):
because when you get to the other side, when your
plants are thriving, when your bees are happy, it's the
ultimate joy. It's also the ultimate work in progress. And
I think that's what makes my garden my sanctuary. When
I'm in there, challenges don't bother me. They actually inspire me,
and when I manage to solve a problem, I feel
kind of incredible. I like being in touch with the seasons,
(16:07):
and I like getting to know what my plants need.
Like I might repot, I might adjust my watering schedule.
I might even supplement a little bit of magic and
feed my plants with miracle grow plant food and see
what happens from learning tricks about when to prune and
when not to to figuring out when my plants need
(16:30):
a little boost. I like discovering new strategies so I
can always be improving. It's the little things that actually
add up and make a huge difference, and soon that
little routine becomes something bigger. My time in the garden
becomes part of the rhythm of my life. It's a
way for me to take care of the planet and
(16:51):
my bees, but it's also a way for me to
take care of me. It becomes almost a meditation or
a relation ship with nature, and that is something that
I really cherish. Depending on my work schedule, I might
be out there really early in the morning, or get
a break at dusk and be able to go out
(17:12):
and peek around and check on all my little green babies.
I love being in a rhythm with my garden because
it makes me feel like I'm in a rhythm with nature.
It's my time to slow down. I get creative, I
reconnect with the outdoors, and ultimately I get to connect
with the people I share it with. There's nothing I
love more than serving up a big meal and laughing
(17:35):
with friends, and when they ask how I made something,
getting to tell them that there's ingredients I grew in
their dinner, and I get to send them home with
a little jar of honey for tea the next day.
It's just a really special way to love people. I
think food is a love language, and I think your
garden can be a resource for that because, let me
(17:56):
tell you what, when my garden salid hits the dinner table,
it tastes way better knowing the journey that it took
to get there. So if you're struggling with your own garden,
I'm telling you stick with it. Instead of getting frustrated,
get inspired. Sometimes the best part of gardening isn't perfection,
it's the process. Hadumraclegrow dot com to check out all
(18:19):
of their easy to use products and start your growth
journey today. Do you kind of now look back and
see what the markers were for you? How were you
figuring out your queer identity? How were you leaning in
or leaning out of it as a kid? You know,
I know that you said that clothing was kind of
(18:41):
it was like a confidence costume in a way, right,
So how did you start to express yourself and figure
this out as you grew up?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
At first very privately? I remember this so distinctly. We
had something called any We call them net curtains or
lace curtains. I don't think it ever hit America at
this trend. It was. It was a thing that just
always was, it seems. So, you know how you have
your curtains in America and sometimes you have shears for
the daytime so you can open your thick curtains and
(19:11):
your shares. There, we don't really have shears. We had lace.
It looked like brider.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh on the little bars, like the little metal bits
in the window. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Well, I was wound down to the ground, and so
in private I could act out my fantasies of being
a bride, and I would under this curtain and just
use this as my veil as I walked down the
aisle to its chosen to marry me. And so in
private I got to act out who I truly was.
(19:41):
And then in the house we were We mostly wore
South Asian clothes, which is modest clothing at home, but
I had Friday clothes. At school, we had dressed down Friday,
so we had some Friday clothes, and so at home
I was constantly putting on clothes that were not appropriate
from my family's home. But it was only where I
could show I'm not just a straight brown Asian kid
(20:06):
in this household. Like I feel like I'm a product
of both, a product of England and Pakistan, and I
want to show that in how I communicate. And I
couldn't I have the words to articulate it. I couldn't
communicate my emotions as a clothes weather thing. And I
never thought that that would be where my career would
end up. But it makes absolute sense that this kid
(20:29):
at six or seven who was changing multiple times a
day for every activity or meal, I was changing my
clothes and reworking a lot. It makes sense that that
person understands the power of clothing more than anyone. Yeah,
and that's absolutely turned out.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean it's incredible. You know when I just
I just motored through the last season of care I
can't belave what's over. I can't talk about it as
a viewer. I'm so sad. I know what it's like,
truly after ten seasons to be like, I'm ready for
my next thing. But I'm like, but we weren't ready.
But it's wild to watch people really come back to life.
(21:13):
You know, you watch the light pop back into someone's eyes.
You see a person who's been judging themselves, you know,
internalizing whatever their own critiques or personal shame look like.
And then you give them a whole new moment and
they they see themselves again. You know why? Why do
(21:33):
you think clothes are that powerful?
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So I'll start this by saying, I do think that
I was the luckiest of the foul five. I do
I think that I had I'm sure everyone will feels
this way about that got gree I can only already
speak to mine. I think that clothes do something that
none if the other catcheries can do for you. And
(21:59):
I think it's because all of us, whether we accept
it or not. And if you're at home saying oh
I don't feel this way, that may be the case
for you, But I don't know if I believe it
almost anybody. I don't think anybody walks to life thinking
I think my body is perfect, and I think that
I look amazing every time I look in the mirror.
I think every one of us has something about us
(22:24):
that we look at. The life just makes it sat
into goot, even if we don't hate it. I don't
hate my body. I don't hate my body, but there
are certain things in that body that I'm like, Gosh,
I wish those muscles were bigger. I wish that I
wasn't so fatigue. There's always something, And so I think
that my category afforded me a luxury that none of
the others did, which is that I get to really
(22:48):
change the way you view yourself by just switching out.
Even just something as simple as a T shirt, a
pair of pants, just something so simple can make you
view yourself so differently. And I think the reason why
people respond so well to it in person, we call
them our heroes. I know you don't, but for anyone
who doesn't watch Queer, we call them our heroes. And
(23:11):
I think that the reason why our heroes feel this
way is for the first time somebody's saying, I want
you to look at the positive. Only I want and
I'm looking at the positive, and I'm seeing the beauty
in you and your appearance and your body, and I
want to highlight the best of that. And I think
that so often we think people are looking at us negatively.
(23:32):
They're critiquing the things that they're seeing, the things that
we see in ourselves, which they seldom all lit. It's
so rare somebody's thinking the thing that you think about yourself. Yes,
And so I think that having somebody there who I
would like to believe in a safe space, I try
my best. You don't see this on camera, but I
try my best beforehand to make it very clear. I
am your greatest champion here. I want the best for you.
(23:55):
If you don't feel good in this, we won't even
show it on camera. There have been so many times
where it puts something somebody in, something that didn't fit,
that they were uncomfortable in. I would sit turned to
production and say, we're not using that cut that completely.
We're going to do something else because I don't ever
want them to feel like the thing that they feel
so secure about I'm about to show the world.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
And so I think that I created a safe space
to say, I know that you've never let yourself give
something else to dry because you're too scared it's going
to fail. Fail quotes with me and I will find
a win through whatever failure we come through. And I
think that I think that that's the beauty of what
(24:36):
my category afforded every one of our heroes is a
safe space where they could at least just try and look,
sometimes we failed. It's a really hard thing to do.
You're not going to win everyone. But I think the
majority of them saw massive changes in their self esteem
from what we did with them.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, it's just so cool. What was it like to
be shed people through that experience kind of you know,
coming out from behind the curtain, if you will, for
the heroes, you know, the subjects of the show, and
also to know that you were going to be put
on TV for the whole world to see. You know,
(25:18):
you were really going to take up properly the mantle
of one of the Fab five, which means one of
the queers, like you know. Was that Yeah? Yeah, for
your community in particular, was that scary?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
It was a really strange feeling. Gosh, it was such
It's so weird to talk about because it was nine
years ago when it started.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, which feels like one hundred years.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
My gosh, life changes so much ten years. So when
when I first got the job and we started shooting
the show, I was really really nervous, and I think
that I had a very different experience of what the
show was and what it could mean to all the others.
And I know we all talked about it the first
season came out that my my, my entry point into
(26:11):
this was very different from everybody else's. Everybody else just
got to be excited. My fear was there hasn't been
like anybody liked me on TV before, and so when
you take that and then you show this person for
the first time, this person does represent a massive community.
There are millions of South Asians, and there weren't There
(26:34):
were like three of us on TV in the US.
There were no queer South Asians, so you're the only one.
So I knew what to expect. I knew that there
were so many people who are going to hate what
I represented, I hate what I stood for, were scared
of what I represented to the world, and so when
(26:56):
the show came out, I know that the rest of
them like amazing. It was huge. And every time when
you ask her would come out and go, oh my god,
please don't anyone see it, Please don't anyone see it.
If anyone sees it, that means that they're going to
find out who I am. And I know it was
some stupid but when I got here, I thought it's
gonna be a tiny show. I'm going to do it.
I didn't even tell my family. I thought, well, this
(27:19):
was years ago, this was not this not to denigrate Netflix,
but at that time, no one I knew I had.
No one in England was talking about Netflix. They had
like a couple of big shows, Orange Is the New
Black and House of Cards. They never had a nonscripted show.
It wasn't isn't what it is now, And so I thought,
most people in England are never going to see this,
and if they see Netflix, they're not going to watch
(27:39):
a Quei show. Who's watching Quei show? And so it
was just something crazy to do for us, someone that
I would tell my grandkids about, never thinking that my
family's going to see this. And so as soon as
it started to really pick up, which was the second day,
I started to find it, thinking, shit, I'm gonna get
(27:59):
so much shit. I get so much shit, And then
I did, and it was My experience was just very different,
very different. It was very different. Jonathan and Cromo at
the time, we're like, we we see what you're having
to represent, and we don't Cramo understudy it because Cramo
experienced it on the real world back in the day.
He was like the first openly quit black Man on
(28:22):
a major show. He said, it's terrifying. It it is.
It's a bizarre feeling. So when everyone was watching with
such joy and such exam and it was lovely, but
internally I was having a fuller meltdown.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Oh my god, you sweet soul, you really kept it together.
You just like you've you've French talked and kept it
push in.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Do you know, let me talk about the French talk pick.
I found that the yoga generation.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
So during COVID there was this article I think it
was about like the New York Times or something that said,
the French talk is a distinction for millennials. The yoga
generation is not doing it so breadchtoking. If you're not breachtooking,
you're a gen Z. And I just thought, and basically,
if gen Z was making fun of it, why would
people ever do this? And I just think, even if
(29:12):
it's not for your younger generation, it's so much better
than just a big baggy topic gives you shape and
so you may not love a French talk. It it
made me something like I even if somebody doesn't know
my name, they know the French talk guy. And let
me tell you that's that is a mad me. It
(29:34):
really is. I love that I went. Every now and
then when I'm on vacation, I have people who don't
speak English who were like, they don't know my name,
but guy, And that I think is such a mark
of the mark we left on the world. There was
certain things that Auntie with avocados. At the time, you
(29:56):
feel like a shit people are making fun. But really
I look back thinking I was known for something. That's
while that I was known for something.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors, Well, listen,
I don't know what's going on in your house with
the kiddos, but I can tell you we're teaching the
kids about a French chuch in this house.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So thank you work.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You're very welcome, Thank you so much. I'm like, no, no,
you need a little just like a little style angle,
do you know.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
I'm sure you've seen this all over. But the kids,
the younger kids are really leading into are you do
you say your age or no? Yeah, okay, how old
are you please?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm forty three age, I'm not yeah not gen z.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So our our When we were kids, we were wearing
baggy ship like we were kids in the nineties, like.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
We were wearing shit, oh my god, Jenko, Yeah, all
that we were.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Really he's wearing it now and I'm not going to
quick I'm like, yeah, we did that too. But one
day you're going to look back and think I needed shape. Yeah,
I just looked like a lot. It was all just
so big, and I had these you have these tiny
little legs and that makes it looky but tiny. It's
all a lot, and I just think, yeah, enjoying it.
(31:18):
I'm telling you, by the time you get to buy it,
you can to look back and think, I wish I'd
just showed a bit of shape.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I get that. I get that. How do you how
do you think about it going forward? Because you're doing
all these different things. You know, you surprised us all
your acting on Deli Boys, which is so fun and
such a departure from who you are. You know, when
you think about that, when you think about your production
(31:45):
company obviously called French Duck Media, how could it not be?
You know, when you when you're talking about bringing a
theater show to London, I mean, what what does the
landscape look like for you right now? Because it looks
like you're trying all all of the things, and many
of them are so far outside of fashion.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah this might sound ludicrous, but I'm trying to distance
myself from the style and fashion stuff because it was
a part of my life for a very long time.
But I don't know how you'll feel about me saying this,
or the audience in general, you feel about me seeing
(32:24):
this book. I was so much more than that, and
I get it all, and I felt I still feel
stifled by thinking, Yeah, I care about clothes, but I
don't care that much about clothes. I care about how
they feel. But I kept Okay, here's how I want
to answer this more succinctly. I guess I care about
(32:45):
how clothes make me feel. I don't really care about
everybody else's fashion. Whenever I see somebody, the first thing
they say is I was really nervous about what I
was going to wear because I knew I was going
to see you today. I don't care where it makes
you feel good. That's all that mattered. If you feel that,
I swear to God, I'm not looking at you judging
(33:06):
what you're wearing. I swear to God that that's not
the case. I will judge you for other things. If
you're being addicted to someone, I'll judge you for that.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Oh, if you're rude to the waiter, I'll.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Judge you for that, and I'll tell you. But when
it comes to your clothes, I swear to that I'm
not really commenting. If it makes you feel good, that's
all that matter is. And I would like to believe.
But even on the queer eye, Okay, there are some things,
I'm like, I know I can make you feel better.
I know you love this, but I know I can
get a version of that that's going to make you
feel even better. But I'm the whole Even on queer
I'm like, I'm not trying to give you my clothes,
(33:37):
but to give you what makes sense for you. So
the reason why I'm doing other things other than fashion
is I get fashion opportunities regularly. Do you want to
host this thing? You want to do a podcast about
what people want? Now? Stop, it's not really what I'm mean.
I really don't. I don't care what they want. I've
got I've got Instagram, on Google whatever, I'll google or
(34:00):
and I'll will have my own opinions. I don't really
talk them about it. And so I wanted after Queer
Eye and Next in Fashion, another show I do on Netflix.
I wanted to make it clear that that's the one
side of me, but no one's hopefully that one dimensional.
And I really the acting stuff I was really passionate
(34:23):
about because it really challenges me on where I or
in unscripted. I feel like I got it. I know
it's so, I got it. I know how to be
on camera. I know how to be on camera. It's
not hard. I just am a lively person. I'm an
(34:44):
energetic person and I'm playful. That's an easy job for me.
I can do it with my eyes closed and I
don't need to prep. I'm so comfortable with that. I
don't My jobs have never been that easy. The reason
why I loved At the Start, the reason why I
love Next at the Style, it's because I found it
very difficult. It was so not comfortable. Oh I got
(35:06):
so comfortable that I'm like, I've got to do something else.
And so I've been taking acting classes for a long term.
I'd never talked about this, but let me just say.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
This tell me everything.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I was breaking it, which might be an English term.
Do you know what breaking it? Me? Okay, breaking it?
And so I shot season one season two. We shot
season one season two together. We didn't know which episodes
were going to be which season. And then I got
signed by a big holiday agency it's called wm ME,
and my agent was wonderful. We were gonna you were
(35:39):
going to do a run, big restaal. Netflix was giving
it everything, and I was so scared. I was like,
I don't know how to do a talk show. You
kidding me? You mean be entertaining on a talk show live?
I don't think so. So my agent at the time
gave me the best advice I've ever been given, which was,
(36:01):
take an acting class in your hometown. I live in
Salt Lake. Take an acting class for a few weeks.
You are going to be put in such uncomfortable situations
and people that might know you from a queer eye,
and that's going to really help you be better when
you do these, uh these press hits. And so I did.
I did my first press drinkit and I hated it,
(36:23):
and I stopped and I didn't know what to do.
And then I started taking acting classes and it was
so hard. I was so embarrassed that where I had
been out for a couple of months, So and everyone
seemed to know it at that point. It wasn't a
sleeper hit. It was a hit. And so I heard
about this class and everyone knew and they could Oh my.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
God, that's my worst name.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It was so mortifying. And then this didn't teacher gives
me this scene and I have to do it in
front of all these people who know me and know
my voice and my inner my inner thoughts because I
give everything on queer Ie. You know everything about me
on quere I, so so I feel so I felt
so vulnerable, But then I started to love it until
(37:04):
you don't. And so for eight eight and a half years,
I've been taking these classes and I just find it
so challenging and difficult and exciting.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I love that long.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Then I insisted on auditioning, and I self taped, and
then I did any person audition, which where I vomited,
which was the most terrified. I vomited into a trash
can because I was the only place I could vomit.
And then I did my audition. I've beaten TV for
eight years. At that point, I feel so confident on
a set. I walk onto an nonscripted sound, I'm like,
(37:34):
what do you need me? To do playing be a clown,
absolutely no problem whatsoever. Talk for three hours, got it?
But do this accent, play a character, do this dialogue
that's not yours in front of these Disney executives I
who just want to see if you could do this
because your son, France, why are you doing this Cockney accent?
(37:55):
That's right? But I did it, and then I went
to set. It was the best week of my career ever.
I've ever being happier in any job I've ever had
in my life. And I just thought, I want to
do this for the rest of my life. And it
might not work, but yeah, I might never get another job,
(38:15):
but I'm going to try even if I'm going to try.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
But I think that's part of it, you know, it's
we're so lucky to be at the time we're in.
When I first started acting, you know, I started auditioning
right as soon as I got into college.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Were you already an actress? We take classes and stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I had no interest.
I thought acting was absolutely ridiculous. And then I had
an arts requirement and I had to do a play,
and I was like, I love this. I decided to
pursue it, and then I wound up on you know,
my first show at twenty one. Yeah, And for the
longest time it was like, well, if you do TV,
(38:58):
you'll never make movies. And if you if you make movies,
then you know, you know, of course you nobody's going
to let you go and just do one season of
a TV show. You have to sign on forever. And
then oh, if you're an actor, you can't be a writer.
And you know, if you want to paint, you have
to paint in secret under a pseudonym. You know. It
was this whole crazy thing. And now I feel like
(39:19):
we're in this really great renaissance of creativity where people say, oh,
if you're interested in that and you have time for it.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, and how gorgeous you know, why not?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
So, what's what's happening with the play you're producing? The
key word it's going up in London? Are you going
to be in it?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I'm going to be Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I wasn't sure if we were getting a surprise.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Oh gosh, no theater. It sounds absolutely terrifying. Anyone that's
have you ever done data on the West End outside
of school? Like once you became yes, wow, okay, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I I And by the way, people were like, do
a fun little show off Broadway, and I was like,
I'm going to go to the West End. Like I
just was like, I want to do it, and it's
it is so fabulous and it is the hardest, craziest
thing I've ever done. I mean also, I think just
at the time I did it, when the pandemic was
still raging and literally half my company went down, I
(40:21):
mean people were not well. And then it was also
like suddenly the whole business was on strike. And so
then I was just sitting at home being like, well,
this is weird. So I went from eight shows a
week to being in my house being like, huh, what
do I do now? And it was really the first
time I'd ever It was the first time in my
(40:43):
life I wasn't attached to a series or a film
or I just was off and I was like, I
don't know how I feel about this.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'll start another podcast. I will say I've never been
and I don't think I ever will be interested in
being in a play. They have a skill set that
I would even pretend I could make work, and so
I would never dream of thinking I could do that.
(41:10):
But The P Word is a play that I heard
about two years ago. I was fascinated by the P word.
I don't know if you know what that means. In England,
there's a horrible term for my people, which is Paki.
It's such a disgusting slur that has been thrown around
brown people since my people came to the UK in
the fifties, and so that was a term I got
(41:33):
thrown at me a thousand times when I lived there.
And so the fact that they dared to call the
play their P word, I thought was brave, and I
just thought the story was beautiful. It's about two Pakistanis
who come together who are navigating the world being we
are or gay in a brown world, in a brown
(41:55):
Muslim world. And I lived that. That was my experience
so publicly, and so to be able to offer my position,
to offer my so that I'll put my weight behind it,
it felt almost I don't feel obligated at all. I'm
so proud to be part of it, but it feels
like an obligation of mine. I was one of the
(42:16):
very first. I just think I should use my power
for good, and so I want to try and encourage
people to go and see this place because it's just
a beautiful story. It's not a deadly down a story
telling let's called the P word be though it's about
two round queer people. It's a beautiful story. And I've
hoped we'll just go and see this wonderful beater. Let
(42:37):
me tell you, it's so rare to see. Actually, I
don't think I've ever seen it. A South Asian lead
a show in the UK just doesn't happen. And see
these two people do this, I just think is incredible.
I really want people to give them a chance because
there are amazing South Asian creatives that just don't get
a chance. And this show one and Olivia, which in England,
(43:01):
I don't know what the American version is. It's it's
it holds even more weight than a Tony. It's just
it's an Olivia. It's just like it's here to call
up success in theater and it won it. And so
I'm really hoping that this with the second one, more
people will go and see it. And I just want
to say this, which is which I want to be
(43:21):
really frank about. I have a large white audience and
I want the white audience to know this is for
them to I didn't an Instagram post a few months ago,
and I've tried to do it somewhat often to say,
here are some shows with brown people and my people
in but they're not just for us. They're English shows.
(43:43):
They're speaking English, like Deli Boys a show play this Assassin.
I'm playing a Cockney assassin. But and it's almost exclusively
the second season they have more Caucasians in what the
first season was mostly a South Asian cast, but American
Indians and back Denny's was all in English. But I
think most didn't give it a chance because they thought, oh,
(44:05):
this is a brown show. It's not that a brown
show for you too. If you ever seen that show Atlanta,
I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And I'm just you're wicked, like absolutely fabulous.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
But I'm like, that's that wasn't I'm sure when they
weren't were making it, they weren't thinking, well, the queer brown,
what's some community it's gonna love this. No, they were
just making a wonderful show that it just so happened
to love. And I really am trying to explain to
my audience, and I sound angry when I'm saying it,
but it's just passion. I've watched white shows my entire life,
love them, and I've found common ground with those characters.
(44:40):
You can find common ground with us. We're regular people.
We're nice, we're fun, we're entertaining, we're horrible, we're mean,
we're full, we're fully formed people. You will find something
that you can connect within any one of our shows,
I promise. So that's why that's why I'm a producer
on the P word. I just I think that the
(45:02):
assumption is, oh, he's brown, so you should pots of it.
I know. I want to be a pot to it
because I want to tell the Whites watch this, you
will learn to me for it from it, and hopefully,
especially you Brits, if you've ever thought of shouting the
P word at one of us, maybe this show will
make you reconsider.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah. I love that. It is so interesting. Like, I
don't know why that. I don't know why so many
people who look like me have that reaction, because you know,
we've always sort of expected everyone to watch our stories,
and I don't know why that's not a two way street,
(45:41):
or there's this idea that you know it's it's not
for us, Like, none of my friends of color have
been like Marvel's not for me except for Black Panther,
Like what superhero stories are lit? Like what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah? Now, don't get me wrong. People of color always
notice that things that aren't aren't jokes for us. In
mom there's certain things that come up be like, oh,
what brown people don't do that. It's okay, you're learning
something new. It's fine to educate yourself. Yeah, it's funny.
When I first came on the scene, there were a
(46:18):
lot of people who were like, I didn't know that
you guys were just like us, And they were talking
about the gay thing and the brown thing and the mustard. Yeah. Yeah,
we're just like you guys. Just you have some works
that are just specifically you. We've got some works that
are specifically yours. But on the whole, I'm just like you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, we have
you seen. I'll have to text it to. One of
my favorite people on TikTok is this hilarious black woman
who goes the white people phrases I learned today, and
(47:00):
she goes through them list by list like she does
a full list once a week, and I mean she
makes me cry, Oh my god. And she'll just be like,
I'm going to use that one, and the ones she
really likes. She'll repeat some times and like try to
get the sound of it right, and I just like,
I scream laughing. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
One thing I loved about Qui I is the CRAMO
and I, especially the last few seasons, we each other
each other every now and they'd say black people because.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
We don't do whatever that thing is, or we don't
get the things. We're like, it's gotta be a white
person thing.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Like, what is this?
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You did that? One of the things I'm really loving.
Bless you for the new show for our friends at Home.
Tan has a new series on YouTube called Honorable Gaze,
and you're basically it's so genius. You're doing what my
friends and I do all day long, which is like,
did you see this insane Reddit thread? And we read
them to each other and it's the am I the
(48:02):
asshole thing? And on one of them recently, I won't
give it away, I promise it's not a spoiler, but
you're talking to two comedians reading through these things.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
One of the ways Mexican. His name's Erics Daniel, Yes,
and you and you.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Look at the other comedian Rob and you go, sorry,
but this is this is white people. Brown people do
not do this.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I was going to say, this is some white people.
So good the amount of times Croward did it, we
do on Honorable Gaze, it's always the dynamic between kids
and parents is that's the differentiator. A lot of the time,
it's that there's certain ways that brown parents or black
(48:47):
parents are with their kids that's very different from how
white parents are with white kids, or vice versa with
their parents. And so that's the time we'll both find
that non white people say, oh, that's a white person
thing because we don't interact with our families the same
way Honorable Gaze. So, okay, can I just wax on
about honorable Gaze for a seconds?
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Please? I love it so much.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
So I wasn't a YouTuber, never really been a YouTuber,
but my agents were like, what do you want to
do next? And I was like, I want I think
I work well in an ensemble. Actually, I would love
your opinion. Do you know what. It's not very often
I get to talk to somebody who's been in an ensemble,
ensembles and what I want to you, however you answer this,
(49:36):
I think that I work better in an ensemble. I
love bouncing off people. I'm not trying to beat the staff.
So when Next in Fashion first came to me, this
was like six months after where I came out, I
was offered a new show and the show was for
me to host solo. And I said to the executive
(49:56):
a Netflix, I was like, I really like working with
other people, and I think, and I know why you're saying,
do it solo. I don't need that. I don't need
to be the star. I will fully share it with
whoever else you want, and I buy is who it
should be. I don't I think that being the star.
I think it's better. It makes you the star when
(50:18):
you're with multiple people and you will get to shine
and you're helping other people shine. And I want to
know if you feel the same way, because you've done
a lot of ensemble stuff. Do you typically push it?
I would look for you to be honest. Do you
typically push to be on your own or do you
think that you are better with others?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
I love being with people, with people I am. I
love being on a team, like, I'm not interested in
having it. If I have it all by myself, I'd
rather have less of a good thing than all of
something by myself. Yeah agree, And for me, the good
thing is being with people, So I've I've really learned
that thing. Where like even on a show, I don't
(50:57):
I don't care about billing somebody wants it's the first
title card. The agents can fight about that shit. But
if there's a male lead and a female lead, if
I've signed on first, my one non negotiable is I
will be number one on the cost.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
If I'm a female. I feel exactly the same way.
And I know exactly what you mean about it just changes,
it changes everything for sure. With this one with Honorable Gaze,
I wanted to have fun. I loved getting to do
Queer Eye for so long, and I my resting state
is I just want to play and so Honorable Gays,
(51:30):
I'm just gonna set the scene for everyone. Yes, yes,
yes it is. Yeah. So Honorable Gaze is a YouTube series.
We've got a full season of eight episodes, but they
will drop every two weeks. And it's me and two
honorable Gays. I play a judge, they play both sides
of an argument. Eric's Adaniel Rob Anderson, who are incredible
(51:53):
online comics, but they also do tours and we read
am I the arshole Reddit stories the kind of stuff.
They're so varied, but a bridesmaid falling out with another bridesmaid,
or the bride parents who are dating but their kids
are also so dating. That's truly one of the stories.
Roommate dynamics. So these stories have submitted that we discussed
(52:18):
the story, but it's also animated, and I so, I'm
the one who created the show, and I really wanted
animation to bring these stories to life. And I think
the animation is so funny. This is so funny, feels
at so good at it, And so we read these
stories and then we decide who's the asshole. This three
stories every episode, it's only fifteen minutes and it's so
quick paced, and it was some of the most fun
(52:39):
I've had in quite some time. I absolutely loved it.
And bodies are so damn funny, and I'm really hoping
this give us some opportunity to do I'm sure they
both want to do TV and more toures. I'm like,
please that make these boys stars. They are so talented.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
They are hilarious. Okay, well, I am so thrilled people
can tune into Honorable Get on YouTube. You guys, I
got a sneak peek at a bunch of episodes. You're
not prepared, They're perfect. I want to talk to you
more about that in a special little something coming up.
But before I let you go for today, I must
ask you my very favorite question, Dan France, What in
(53:15):
this moment when you kind of look at the landscape
of life, whether it's parenthood, all these production adventures, what
feels like you're work in progress?
Speaker 2 (53:29):
My work you progress? Right now? Is my personal life?
Weirdly enough, career you never know what's going to happen,
and that ebbs and flows. It's what do I want
for the future of myself. I have spent on my children.
We're currently considering a massive move part runtly. We've been
(53:51):
in Utah for nineteen years. I built a dream house
here three years ago, and I thought that this was
where I will retire and my life will be complete.
But I but now it's more of a working progress.
Now it's a what more joy can we get out
(54:12):
of this life? What more adventure can we get out
of this life, what helps I want my kids to
experience And so my working progress, weirdly enough, is what
future do I want for my family that I can control?
And what does that look like next?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
That's amazing, that's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's really exciting. It's terrifying. Yeah, I did a massive move.
I moved from the UK to the US and then
to Utah, like their massive moves, and I loved everything
I ever knew, and I'm so scared doing it in
middle age, but I'm like, why not. I'm relatively young,
and if I don't now, I'm probably not going to
make such a big life in my sixties. So now
(54:53):
seems at the right time.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Thanks terrifying, But let's seehere it goes.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
We'll have to offline about where we're going.
Host
Sophia Bush
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