September 19, 2022 • 37 mins
On July 4, 2002, two men shot and killed 36-year-old Tony Cox outside a restaurant in Chicago, IL. Suspecting the murder was gang-related, police arrested Eric Blackmon. After claiming Blackmon was selected from a lineup by eyewitnesses, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to 60 years in prison.
Guest Host Patrick Pursley was wrongfully convicted for a 1993 murder in Rockford, IL, for which he spent nearly 24 years in prison. Remarkably, he ended up writing the law that set him free.
Patrick and Eric spent over a decade together in Stateville Correctional Center in Cook County, Illinois. They both learned the law and represented themselves before being granted their freedom.
To learn more and get involved, visit:
https://www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/eric-blackmon.html
https://www.macarthurjustice.org/team_member/eric-blackmon/
https://www.chicagotorturejustice.org/board-of-directors
This episode is part of a special series in our Wrongful Conviction podcast feed of 15 episodes focused on individual cases of wrongful incarceration, guest hosted by formerly incarcerated returning citizens and leading criminal justice advocates, award-winning journalists and progressive influencers.
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jason Flam. Since I began recording runfl Conviction back
in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exoneries, but
unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice Iceberg.
So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
This is one of those interviews. It's July four, two
(00:25):
and thirty six year old Tony Cox is meeting up
with Richard Rico, the owner of Fat Albert's, a restaurant
on the West side of Chicago. They lead the restaurant together.
A regal turns to lock the door behind them, and
that's when he here's two gunshots. Tony Cox is shot dead.
A regal stands at a close distance to the shooters,
(00:47):
but he doesn't recognize them. As they flee to scene.
Two women witness the crime from their cars. Both of
them called nine one one, and both would later be
asked identified the shooters from photograph as, even though they
barely had time to see them. Chicago police officers Gregory Jones,
Eugene Schletter, and James Sanchez investigated the murder and they
(01:11):
believe it had to be game related because Tony Cox
was a member of the local gang, the New Breeds.
At first, they investigated New Breed members but made no arrest,
but within a month of the crime, for reasons they
are still unknown, they turned their attention to Eric Blackman.
On the day of the murder, Eric was hosting a
(01:33):
barbecue and between twenty and forty people saw him there.
Two months later, in September, Eric showed up at court
to deal with the unrelated misdemeanor charge, but the police
arrested them there on the spot as he entered the courthouse.
Despite having dozens of alibi witnesses and no connection to
(01:53):
the victim. Eric Blackman was found guilty of murder and
Tony Cox on sept Number. He was since the sixty
years in prison this this wrongful conviction. My name is
(02:18):
Patrick Pursley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley. I've been
a guest on this show to talk about my own
wrongful conviction. But now I'm here's your guest host. In April,
I had to honor of sitting down with Eric Blackman
to talk about his incredible story. Today, I have a
very distinguished guest, a friend, a brother of fellow AX honoree,
(02:43):
a very positive person, someone I've known for more than
a decade. Um, Eric Blackman, how are you today, I'm
doing great. Thanks for having me. I definitely definitely appreciate
you being here. And we knew each other a lot
longer than the decade, at least at least a decade
yeah out two fifteen or twenty years ago when I
(03:03):
really think we would to stay built together. Yeah, stay yeah, Yeah,
I know you've come a long way and you've done
a lot. You've really done a lot to save your
own life. Did you ever face any criticism where they say,
like you jail house lord, you know how ge everybody
out with yourself? You never heard that one. Yeah, and
the way people think that way or one of the
(03:24):
biggest criticisms as people would tell y'all man that petition
will never worked, you know, a that'd be what you
get a lot, uh sometimes, And I heard a lot
about the very petition that got me here. So I really,
you know, you just really got to go on with
what you research, how you feel, and what you believe in,
and if it's right, you just hope that the court
ends up seeing it that way, you know, Country every
(03:45):
to what anybody else may say. So, where where are
you from? Um, I'm from the West Side of Chicago.
I was born and raised there. Yeah, it was dangerous,
very much like any other place. It was um, you know,
ripple with gangs, drugs, violence, you know what I'm saying.
It was you know, it was just things that were around.
(04:06):
You know, you do your best to stay away from it,
but it's there, things that you see every day. And
Eric's neighborhood, gang violence and drugs went hand in hand
with police brutality in our neighborhood. They came up with
this what they called what was later called the Black Site,
which is Home and Square police station. There was the
(04:26):
station where people would be disappeared, where you would go
and you would hear the stories of people riding past
here and screams at night. But it was just the
place where people where all of your rights was just violated.
People were just going there and people wouldn't hear from
for loan periods of time, and people were arrested and
held and it was later revealed that people were you know,
(04:49):
unconstitutionally held there at jail. Now, people have to remember
the setting in Chicago and the late nineties. You know,
they had record amounts of murder, and you have these
cadres of police who are basically acting outside of the law.
People would be amazed the level of brutality that's leveled
(05:11):
against someone being interrogated who was non outton Times, a
young black male. A twenty fifteen investigation by the Guardian
revealed that the Home and Square facility had detained and
interrogated more than seven thousand people in Chicago since n
and estimated those people were black, and only a handful
(05:34):
were allowed legal representation. You know, it's like, hey, you
hear about these things and you know people and you
so you know, it's very much real. Like the Bookieyman
on July four, two thousand two, you have Tony Cox
and Cook County, Illinois. Um, he's shot to death. Um
(05:58):
there's witnesses, people dropping down street, at least two or
three of those. There's someone next door and barbershock to people.
Um there's kind of according to the record, it's like
this strange meet up, right, he gets a message like
meet in front of fat Albert's or meet at fat Albert's.
He meets Richard Rego. I believe they kind of stay
(06:20):
inside the restaurant for about twenty minutes and um, they're
excellent restaurant. Two people pop up and shoot, um Tony
Cocks dead. I believe that's that's the states that was
the state's case. I believe that is what they ultimately
you know, presented at court as to being what actually
(06:43):
happened that I know when the shooting happened, there was
like a handful of witnesses from your record or from
like where some things that we're saying about the actual shooter.
I know they have made nine one one calls or
according to the record, French and Reese and Lisa McDowell were, uh,
two people who were driving past the crime. They both
(07:05):
were stopped at this um same light. Uh at a
different viewpoints. Yeah yeah, both one was heading north, the
other way head and south. But they were both that
you know, on opposite sides of the same light. According
to Miss Frenshawn Reese, the light turned green, she see
these people standing up half a block in front of her.
The light turns green and she proceeds up. She sees
(07:27):
one of these men shoot the other. Um you recall
like her identification, like description. She gave a description I
can't recall, but it wasn't a description that fit me.
I believe the description with somebody like five teen thirties, twenties, thirties.
I was a team then, but it was something that
definitely didn't fit me. I'm six four, um, I was
(07:49):
a teenager at the time, so you know, it was
a very far cry from who I am now. Miss
McDowell says that she was still there and when the
crime happened, she heard the shots, looked over her and
the kids within the car. She's seen this person or
somebody two people come around the build and and walk
up on this man that was already on the ground
(08:11):
where she's seen the white man who we suspected. She
was saying, Mr Reego, he had a gun. She actually
puts a gun in a Riggle's hand. Yeah, that's what
she did. Uh. At her initial statement to the police,
sometime later she would go on to change that. It
really cut a lot of people because like, if what
she's saying is true, then Mr Frego was not a witness.
(08:35):
He was a participant in this crime. You know what
I'm saying. I'm not sure if everything that happened or
what the actual you know, uh relationship or what actually
went on. It was a lot of questions around what
actually happened then who was actually involved that day? You know,
a lot of cases take a lot twis returns, and
but your case is almost like a direct like a
(08:56):
direct shot. Like you're at a you're hosting a party, right,
and you know, like your barbecue July fourth, every one
out there, right, So you got forty witnesses, right, Can
you tell me about that? Well, Um, we threw a
barbecue on myself and some friends and I um over
(09:19):
on the block where we normally hung and we were
out there, um throughout that afternoon the time that they
say this murder happened to occur, we were definitely out there.
I heard a dozen to two dozen people that could
verify where I was. How do how the hell they
tie you like, how they drag you in? You know,
(09:39):
I don't know. That's something I don't know to this day.
How I ever became a suspect. How I had no
link to the game, No ties, wasn't a part of
that gang or any gang for that matter. Uh, I'm
not sure until this day, that's still the question. No,
I never heard any dealings with the VIC them or
(10:01):
anybody that was alleginally involved in this crime. I do nothing.
So how did they like effectuate the rest? Like, how
was it the same day or later? Um? No, sir,
I was arrested like months later. I believe it was
like two months. I got arrested September the five of
that year, which is exactly like two months later. In
(10:23):
between the time of the murder and my actual arrest,
which was a couple of months, I had been arrested
for uh some type of disorderly conduct of gambling or
something like that. You know in our neighborhood the police
you know, sup you yeah, lord or those type of
(10:45):
and it's not a real big infraction. It's infraction that
you normally go to like uh, misdemeanor cord or something
for and they just threw it out normally in my neighborhood.
It's just the way to ring up guys. It's almost
like a taxation. Yeah, it's a feel quotas type of things.
Everybody know who's in charge. Yeah, basically, and with Chicago
(11:05):
p D, you're gonna respect the authority. Yeah. Really that's
definitely so. Um So I get one of those. It
was nothing major didn't do anything. So this particular morning,
if my arrest Sepamber the fourth was the day I
actually had court for this on offense. So I go
there the same way, I will, you have a court date,
(11:25):
nothing amiss, and I walk into build if police are there.
These aren't the regular police. These are like the tactical guys.
They're waiting on you. Yeah, they're waiting there. As soon
as I go through the metal detector, they acts like, so,
what's your name? And I tell them my name and
these officers grabbed me rough me you know, you know
how they do. You know what I'm saying, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(11:52):
So it's to grab you up, and I'm like for what,
you know what y're grabbing me for. My attorney's right
in the courtroom. So the whole thing was to prevent
me from getting a chance to notify my attorney. That's
that's That's something else too, because if they know you
have attorney, they're not supposed to ask you nothing. Well, right,
but they know my attorney was there in their courtroom. Um,
(12:15):
I was going to court. He was there. You know.
There's usually um a very clear path to why the
police pick somebody, right, one of the things that I
hear a lot from people who have not lived the
um life that we have lived. It's like, come on,
what they do? Just picked the name out of the hat.
(12:35):
I could never figure out in your case, Like how
how the hell did they pick you? You know, Um,
that's still a mystery to this day for me, just
as well as my legal team going forward. I can't
really tell you why they picked me out. I don't
know that would. That's something that baffles me to this day.
Even when you aren't guilty and you know you haven't
(12:58):
done anything, you still question yourself, like why me? Why
the hell did I? What could I have done differently?
You all like? And to this day, like I questioned
myself about that. I don't know what I could have
done differently because I don't know anything in regards to
what happened that day. This episode is sponsored by the
(13:25):
a I G pro Bono Program. Hey I G is
a leading global insurance company, and the ai G pro
Bono Program provides free legal services as well as other
support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals who
are most in need, and they recently announced that working
to reform the criminal justice system will become a key
(13:46):
pillar of the program's mission. The police arrested Eric without
him warrant, and they took him to the station, but
he has no idea what's going on. You got machine,
just being dragged away from your family, dragged away from
your house, and the police took their time and telling
(14:07):
him what this was all about. Eventually they tell me
that I'm there for murder. The only thing I could
tell you is that's like the most earth shaking, earth
shattering like moment that I could tell you. You know,
it was like, you know, hearing the record, you know,
stop like murder, Yeah, murder. I've never been nobody accused
(14:28):
of nothing remotely like that. Now. It was like, hold on,
they tell you murder, and they leave out again, and
they leave you for a while and then they yeah, yeah.
Then they come back in and they're like, okay, you
want to tell us what happened now, and I don't
know what happened, and I'm denying, and they steady trying
to do it. You know, uh, hey, well maybe it
(14:49):
didn't happen this way, Maybe it happened that way. You want, yeah,
we know you weren't the person. And those are things
that they go out go over, they say, and do
a lot of different things to out those three days.
It really was like I've never been so broke down
and so dejected and so defeated in my life. I'll
just say that, like just being in that just having
(15:12):
people because oftly yelled and badger you and tell you
and talk to you like you the lowest, dirtiest thing
in the world and accused you of doing something like
so horrific. You know, it just shouted you. It broke me.
I was a nineteen year old kid. I never went
through nothing like that before. I was just you know,
(15:35):
I was scared, I was defeated. I was hurt. I
didn't know and like, man, you just don't know what
to do in that situation. And you were a kid
in there. Man, the stuff that those grown man subject
kids to like in that, Like you know what I'm saying.
One of the detectives on this case was James Sanchez,
and since all this happened, he got promoted to commander
(15:56):
despite having at least ninety formal complaints of miscond ed
up against him. So, yeah, this is this character right here,
He's the one actually interrogating eric Um. Yeah. Mr Sanche
is like I called him out his name. I cursed
at him. He said something to me. I cursed at him,
like game, I asks a nice one to face Yeah,
(16:17):
just to the face. Yeah, yeah, you know what it it
means business. Yeah yeah, I got his point of cross.
I didn't say that no more. After his interrogation. He
waited for his trial behind bars and Cookaine Jail for
two years, being stuck in that place. It's one of
the most dreadful, crepit, dilapidated places that you could ever
(16:41):
throw so many people in is rats, roaches, knives, violence, gangs,
if you name it, you get tyrannical police officers or
corrections officers that which is do what that like? It
was rough. I've seen people be stabbed if you name it, choked, strangled,
(17:04):
I've seen all kinds of things like happened to people
that I've seen one guy like set on fire. Like
it's some of the things that you wake up to
when you have nowhere to go, no where to room.
You're just stuck. You're just there. So by the time
you get the trial, it's almost like it's almost like
a relief. What is the States, like, what's their case
(17:25):
in chief? What do they present where we started trial
about two years later, and the state's whole case in
chief was the identifications of Ms McDowell and Ms Reese,
And that was the only thing, Um, I never forget it.
Miss French and Reese testified to seeing their offend his
(17:48):
face for property four to five seconds. Miss mcdown testified
to seeing it only for like two or three. Before trial,
American's mother put together a list a potential alibi witnesses
that could confirm he was at the Fourth of July
barbecue and not down at Fat Albert's restaurant where the
(18:08):
crime was committed. My mom made the calls to two
people that day, uh to ultimately come to my trial
and testify and my defense with those two alibi witnesses,
two of the people from hard On forty. Yeah, that
he hadn't even spoken to until my trial attorney hadn't
(18:28):
even spoken to until that. More than that, they showed
up waiting for trial. Just for the record, you're waiting
for trial two years and he hasn't even spoke to
two witnesses but a few hours before trial. Yeah. According
to them, that the first time they ever met or
spoke with him was like and it wasn't even hours
he spoke to them, like probably for a short period
(18:52):
prior to them getting understand I kind of felt like okay, um,
not really okay, But I know I got an Alabam.
I know I had a bunch of people that know
where I would. You know, I just know that there's
a mistake, that this would be straightened out. But the lawyer,
he he doesn't really follow up. He didn't, the police
(19:14):
didn't follow up, the lawyer didn't follow up. At that point,
I was a layman. I knew nothing about the law
going in. I didn't. It's like you're really learning as
you go alone, and to say a part, as you're
learning with your life. No room forever, Yeah, no room forever.
Before his trial, Eric's attorney convinced him to take a
(19:35):
bench trial. In a jury trial, you pick your twelve jurors. However,
in a bench trial, the judge is the sole trial fact.
He's the one who hears the evidence and determines guilt
or innocence. So you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
He said that in my situation, it was a better
(19:56):
to go. When he definitely convinced me, he gave me
a lot of different reasons, and like, and I really
didn't want to go, Like I really didn't want it.
But you're a kid, it's your first aimeple, do understand
who would you listen to other than the person that's
supposed to defend you your attorney. An attorney and his
(20:16):
client are in a fidciary relationship. He's supposed to look
out for your best interests. He's supposed to defend you zealously.
In retrospect, as a jail house lawyer, I could tell
you take a bench trial is a terrible idea. It
closes out a bunch of chances for your appeal to
be heard because a lot of the issues actually become
(20:37):
non issues because the judges presumed to know the law.
But Eric, he didn't know this at the time. He
was just a kid. On September twenty seven, the judge
found Eric Blackman guilty of murder and was sinced to
sixty years in prison. I never forget my mom list
in that courtroom and like as a shriek that she
(20:58):
let out was like, M That's something I'll never forget
because we know I hadn't done it. Everybody knew it.
Everybody the whole neighborhood, everybody, the police. They even knew
even when they were saying it in that room, they
knew that I hadn't done They knew it, but they
told me say it well, asked the jail, you're gonna
(21:19):
go through all of this, and those things played through
my mind. What was gonna happen when I got to
the penitentiary, my kids, my family. Hearing that guilty verdict
was like, ain't gonna hand and he wanted the worst,
if not the worst day of my life ever, just
(21:40):
no one. I didn't do it. It was hard to
sleep at night. I couldn't I couldn't I come rest,
I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I thought about killing
myself so many times, even tried once. By the time
(22:13):
I met Eric, he's working hard to save his own life.
I met him in the law library and he was
deep deep into books, trying to learn everything he could
to get himself out of there. I think you were
the one that told me, because I used to everybody
pro say, gets no play, like that's like one of
my things, Like you represent yourself, forget about it, right,
So you I think you were the first one told
(22:35):
me us. Like, man, it's like, what you mean, Uh,
If I ain't got a little you ain't getting out jail.
So you file stuff yourself and actually got some type
of rhythm, right, I mean not at first obviously, right.
So yeah, we went through UM the process, and I
(22:56):
went through UM the direct impure process, the posting action
process that was denied. Both of those were denied. The
next step for Eric was still pealed to the federal
courts with the rid of Habiest Corpus, a petition that
claims you've been in prison and violation of your constitutional rights.
It's your first and last federal pell The only time
(23:18):
that the federal courts will ever look at a conviction
or overturned the conviction is if the state courts did
not convict you correctly according to federal law, the US
constitutional law. So basically you have to find not only
that they were wrong, but they have to be more
(23:40):
than wrong. They had to be so agreed just as
to where like I mean, it's a high bar to pass.
You have to ask the district judge, the guy who
smashes you in the head, give me a letter that
you did me wrong, so I can take it to
your boss. Yeah, so you asked him to reconsider his decision.
If he doesn't, then and you have to find what
(24:02):
they call a certificate of appallability to him. And that's
where you have to get him or heard to say
where they were wrong, which they very very rarely do.
We get to the point where the certificate of appellability
is Granny and I get these great attorneys and re
Dale and David p Chrome. I appreciate them so much
because after what I had been through with the first attorney,
(24:24):
I gave them hell. And it wasn't intentionally, it was
just because trust yeah, that was my life. I had
been my baby for so long. I finally had got
some you know, and I just couldn't give it up,
you know what I'm saying. So you go through it
and like, man, they were the best attorneys that I
ever could have asked for. Those people understood and they
(24:47):
love me. Like even when I was an asked when
I was wrong, I had badgered them about what they
were going to argue. What you're gonna say? You no
saying like this, No, I just I'd like to be
told how good hey look mhm, I mean hey, I
was the only person that's gonna go back and do
that time at the end of the day. So the
(25:08):
jail say, hey, we get to go back. We're elated.
But another problem presents itself. I have been in jail
at that point so long. Money is depleted, don't have
many people around the help. Um, you have a new trial,
you have a new case. What you're gonna do? How
(25:30):
do you proceed going forward? And uh, Mr Krone he
was like, hey, we got a few options. And one
of those options was we could see if the c
w C, the Center Role for Convictions, will be willing
to take your case. I tell him, yeah, you could
do whatever you want. But I asked him and they
(25:51):
see it. No good luck with that. Yeah, so you know,
we come we have this attorney meeting and I see
these the new faces I've never seen this were a
little small, wildly looked woman like she barely stood over
the table like. And she was like, hey, I'm caring Daniels.
And she was like, yes, we're gonna be here and
(26:13):
taking your case and we're looking forth working with you.
And the first thing I said was when she got finished,
was like, hey, but y'all told me no before. Why
are you telling me no before, and like I was
just sitting there intently waiting on the answer, and she
didn't say anything. She just gave me that mother look
and looked at the paper and leave it to me.
(26:35):
And I signed that paper and that was one of
the best things that I've ever done for my life.
And that lawyer was Karen Daniel made she rest in peace.
She was a renowned wrawful convictions attorney who at the
time was a co director of the Center for wrang
(26:55):
for Convictions. She and the students she supervised one more
than twenty exoneration cases during her career. She was a
great woman, a real hero who helped me out when
I was lost in the airport come from Georgia and
she really didn't even know me. She died in a
tragic hit and running car crash, in a loss that's
(27:17):
felt deeply across the innocence movement community. She liked my
second mother. I often tell people like that, Uh, she
the one who gave me my second birth, who gave
me my second life. So to me, like, yeah, she
was like my mother. And she just did so much
like in a way for this community. If she didn't
(27:39):
work your case, that didn't get you an attorney. She
made some precedent that you ultimately ended up using, and
everybody benefited from arrogance. New team of lawyers brought his
case to US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge Ronald
Guzman granted Eric's petition for the habeas corpus, and he
(27:59):
was let our prison on bond penning of re trial.
Actually the same day I got out. I was living
life very barely because you always heard, you know, in
position that maybe you may go back. You know what
I'm saying. You knew what it was like. You know,
it was always hanking there. It's like walking around with
(28:20):
that black cloud of that am build over your head,
just waiting for it to drop, and you didn't know
what it would be. You know, I know that I
hadn't done anything, but I know I hadn't done anything,
you know, the first time. And um, I believe it's
the fall case that says even the innocent man still
faces a fifty fifty chance if he goes to trial.
(28:40):
So I knew what my chances were. I didn't want
to go back to jail, um, but I knew what
I had to do. Like we still here that heard
her to get across. I was scared as hell and
I wanted to prolonge as long as I could, But
then that really wasn't a viable thought. So I told
my attorneys to let's man trial. It was six months
(29:03):
after I got out, and we demanded trial, and uh,
when he came time, they decided not to proceed. They
dropped the charges. Then comes to celebration, No, not really,
because it was anti climactic. You think it's gonna be
over with. Then you think, like, hey, life is great.
(29:25):
You know a lot of us think that that would
be the end of the movie, right, Na, But it's
just the beginning. Because I hear that thing for like
more than half of my life. I didn't really know
like how to live without it, Like it was a
different era. We come home to a different it's a
(29:47):
different world, Yeah it really is. But then you you know,
you really just like wake up and you don't have
to worry about that, you don't have to go through
it anymore. But it's like, I don't know, I don't
even remember the point to where I didn't have to
go through it. So it's like it becomes our life
(30:09):
and it becomes almost like which we're defined by like
you're actually become a success story and just like you
start working c w C. Right, what is that like?
Where is the sweet part like in your work? And
you know what I mean, Like I tell people like this, Um,
I guess the great sweet spot is that you still
(30:30):
get a chance to work on trying to ultimately correct
the system or not allow whatever happened to me that
happened to the next person. You know, that's the part
that gets up and keep me driving, you know, keeps
me going. At the same time, it's like going back
to visit your tornment to over and over and over again,
(30:51):
because every time you pick up a case, it takes
you right back to that spot for you. Every time
I go to the court, you know, and I'm good,
I'm great, arap everything, But sometimes the same fear creeps
back is that first day when I was standing in
there and it's all consuming. It's all consuming. Yeah, So
(31:14):
I mean that I don't have a state Ville reference.
There's not a single day that I am not back there.
What I want to ask you, though, is what would
you invite the audience, how can they help you or
something that's near and dear to your heart right, your
what is your call to action? I guess my personal
(31:37):
call to action is to keep fighting, is to keep
on trying to do things to make our justice system better.
I know people might say that we have like a
great justice system, but I tell people, much like a
doctor King want to say that an injustice anywhere as
a threat to justice everywhere. So if one person is
in jail wrongfully, or if one person is over sentence,
(31:59):
the end of run is the it runs the chance
of it happening to two and three and four and
five and so more to where it will become the norm.
And I look at so many people that I sentenced today,
and I see a lot of people over sentence. We're
punitively punishing people consistently, like and what I mean by
(32:19):
that is, yeah, people make mistakes, people commit crimes, but
do we take their lives? Like for every infraction. We
have more people slated to die in prison now than
at any point in time before. So when I would
say the people, yeah, you could say somebody committed a
crime more or whatever I say to you, So what
(32:42):
do we do do we take the life from And
to the people that say yeah, I'll just say, hey,
what about that real stop signing that you ran? What
about that real light you ran? What penalty should you get?
You know? I work with a lot of different orgs.
So the first thing is I work for them in
carth that Justice Center, which is to a civil entity
(33:02):
that suits for people like us and other people who
you know, uh, face any civil rights violation. We do
things like voters rights, prisoner rights, solitary um, wrong for convictions,
wrong for death, police shooting, and those type of things.
So these are the things that I feel are really
near and dear to me being a chance to write
(33:22):
the system. I also work for the Chicago Torture Justice Center,
which works on uh basically trying to make sure that
all of the bird the John Birds torture victims, you know,
get justice in their cases. And I sit on the
board for that. And I also sitting on the board
for another or called the Justice Renewal Initiative, where we
(33:47):
try to give jobs to youth that are you know, uh,
disadvantaged and targeted or you know, return the citizens and
we try best to work with youth um on that
front to ultimately help them. Yeah, so they don't we
went through yeah, exactly important. So we'll have those links
to those organizations in the bio, hopefully everyone will check
(34:09):
them out. UM, you get to find a word this
closing arguments, I really really, really truly want thank you
for UM let me tell your story. I really commend you,
you know, survivor. Thanks. I guess I'll take this time
to just, um, thank the people that helped me to
get to this point, help me get freedom, help me
(34:31):
be sitting here with you all. I don't think that
I get a chance to say that, well, thank you,
and just tell those people how much they man, how
much every little thing that they ever did help me.
I thank all of those people, and and I'd just
like to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
(34:52):
thank you. I don't think I can say it enough.
Thank you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. The
senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our
producers are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn.
(35:14):
Our editor is Roxander Guidi, and special thanks to Jillian
Forstad for help on this episode. The music and this
production is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
(35:34):
wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and
Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too,
and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrongful
Conviction is a production of Lavul for Good Podcasts and
association with Signal Company Number One. Tune in next week
(36:05):
for the third and final episode of Wrongful Conviction, where
Patrick Persley plays the host and Patrick this time is
going to interview Jarvis Ballard about their tragic shared experience. Now,
both of them are innocent men who spent decades behind bars,
and in this intimate and highly emotional episode, they're going
to talk about the lies that landed Jarvis in prison
(36:26):
and the patterns of misconduct that play in so many
wrongful conviction cases, just like there's now. Patrick met Jarvis
the same time I did, which was that this year's
Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona. Both of us were
immediately taken by this larger than life character. This guy
just got out of prison after two decades, and he's
(36:47):
there representing himself in such a powerful way. So these
guys bonded immediately. It was an honor for me to
be able to facilitate their connection and to have Patrick
on the mic in my chair interviewing Jarvis. It just
means the world to me, so tune in listen next
(37:08):
Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed
I'm Jason Flam. Since I began recording runfl Conviction back
in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exoneries, but
unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice Iceberg.
So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
This is one of those interviews. It's July four, two
(00:25):
and thirty six year old Tony Cox is meeting up
with Richard Rico, the owner of Fat Albert's, a restaurant
on the West side of Chicago. They lead the restaurant together.
A regal turns to lock the door behind them, and
that's when he here's two gunshots. Tony Cox is shot dead.
A regal stands at a close distance to the shooters,
(00:47):
but he doesn't recognize them. As they flee to scene.
Two women witness the crime from their cars. Both of
them called nine one one, and both would later be
asked identified the shooters from photograph as, even though they
barely had time to see them. Chicago police officers Gregory Jones,
Eugene Schletter, and James Sanchez investigated the murder and they
(01:11):
believe it had to be game related because Tony Cox
was a member of the local gang, the New Breeds.
At first, they investigated New Breed members but made no arrest,
but within a month of the crime, for reasons they
are still unknown, they turned their attention to Eric Blackman.
On the day of the murder, Eric was hosting a
(01:33):
barbecue and between twenty and forty people saw him there.
Two months later, in September, Eric showed up at court
to deal with the unrelated misdemeanor charge, but the police
arrested them there on the spot as he entered the courthouse.
Despite having dozens of alibi witnesses and no connection to
(01:53):
the victim. Eric Blackman was found guilty of murder and
Tony Cox on sept Number. He was since the sixty
years in prison this this wrongful conviction. My name is
(02:18):
Patrick Pursley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley. I've been
a guest on this show to talk about my own
wrongful conviction. But now I'm here's your guest host. In April,
I had to honor of sitting down with Eric Blackman
to talk about his incredible story. Today, I have a
very distinguished guest, a friend, a brother of fellow AX honoree,
(02:43):
a very positive person, someone I've known for more than
a decade. Um, Eric Blackman, how are you today, I'm
doing great. Thanks for having me. I definitely definitely appreciate
you being here. And we knew each other a lot
longer than the decade, at least at least a decade
yeah out two fifteen or twenty years ago when I
(03:03):
really think we would to stay built together. Yeah, stay yeah, Yeah,
I know you've come a long way and you've done
a lot. You've really done a lot to save your
own life. Did you ever face any criticism where they say,
like you jail house lord, you know how ge everybody
out with yourself? You never heard that one. Yeah, and
the way people think that way or one of the
(03:24):
biggest criticisms as people would tell y'all man that petition
will never worked, you know, a that'd be what you
get a lot, uh sometimes, And I heard a lot
about the very petition that got me here. So I really,
you know, you just really got to go on with
what you research, how you feel, and what you believe in,
and if it's right, you just hope that the court
ends up seeing it that way, you know, Country every
(03:45):
to what anybody else may say. So, where where are
you from? Um, I'm from the West Side of Chicago.
I was born and raised there. Yeah, it was dangerous,
very much like any other place. It was um, you know,
ripple with gangs, drugs, violence, you know what I'm saying.
It was you know, it was just things that were around.
(04:06):
You know, you do your best to stay away from it,
but it's there, things that you see every day. And
Eric's neighborhood, gang violence and drugs went hand in hand
with police brutality in our neighborhood. They came up with
this what they called what was later called the Black Site,
which is Home and Square police station. There was the
(04:26):
station where people would be disappeared, where you would go
and you would hear the stories of people riding past
here and screams at night. But it was just the
place where people where all of your rights was just violated.
People were just going there and people wouldn't hear from
for loan periods of time, and people were arrested and
held and it was later revealed that people were you know,
(04:49):
unconstitutionally held there at jail. Now, people have to remember
the setting in Chicago and the late nineties. You know,
they had record amounts of murder, and you have these
cadres of police who are basically acting outside of the law.
People would be amazed the level of brutality that's leveled
(05:11):
against someone being interrogated who was non outton Times, a
young black male. A twenty fifteen investigation by the Guardian
revealed that the Home and Square facility had detained and
interrogated more than seven thousand people in Chicago since n
and estimated those people were black, and only a handful
(05:34):
were allowed legal representation. You know, it's like, hey, you
hear about these things and you know people and you
so you know, it's very much real. Like the Bookieyman
on July four, two thousand two, you have Tony Cox
and Cook County, Illinois. Um, he's shot to death. Um
(05:58):
there's witnesses, people dropping down street, at least two or
three of those. There's someone next door and barbershock to people.
Um there's kind of according to the record, it's like
this strange meet up, right, he gets a message like
meet in front of fat Albert's or meet at fat Albert's.
He meets Richard Rego. I believe they kind of stay
(06:20):
inside the restaurant for about twenty minutes and um, they're
excellent restaurant. Two people pop up and shoot, um Tony
Cocks dead. I believe that's that's the states that was
the state's case. I believe that is what they ultimately
you know, presented at court as to being what actually
(06:43):
happened that I know when the shooting happened, there was
like a handful of witnesses from your record or from
like where some things that we're saying about the actual shooter.
I know they have made nine one one calls or
according to the record, French and Reese and Lisa McDowell were, uh,
two people who were driving past the crime. They both
(07:05):
were stopped at this um same light. Uh at a
different viewpoints. Yeah yeah, both one was heading north, the
other way head and south. But they were both that
you know, on opposite sides of the same light. According
to Miss Frenshawn Reese, the light turned green, she see
these people standing up half a block in front of her.
The light turns green and she proceeds up. She sees
(07:27):
one of these men shoot the other. Um you recall
like her identification, like description. She gave a description I
can't recall, but it wasn't a description that fit me.
I believe the description with somebody like five teen thirties, twenties, thirties.
I was a team then, but it was something that
definitely didn't fit me. I'm six four, um, I was
(07:49):
a teenager at the time, so you know, it was
a very far cry from who I am now. Miss
McDowell says that she was still there and when the
crime happened, she heard the shots, looked over her and
the kids within the car. She's seen this person or
somebody two people come around the build and and walk
up on this man that was already on the ground
(08:11):
where she's seen the white man who we suspected. She
was saying, Mr Reego, he had a gun. She actually
puts a gun in a Riggle's hand. Yeah, that's what
she did. Uh. At her initial statement to the police,
sometime later she would go on to change that. It
really cut a lot of people because like, if what
she's saying is true, then Mr Frego was not a witness.
(08:35):
He was a participant in this crime. You know what
I'm saying. I'm not sure if everything that happened or
what the actual you know, uh relationship or what actually
went on. It was a lot of questions around what
actually happened then who was actually involved that day? You know,
a lot of cases take a lot twis returns, and
but your case is almost like a direct like a
(08:56):
direct shot. Like you're at a you're hosting a party, right,
and you know, like your barbecue July fourth, every one
out there, right, So you got forty witnesses, right, Can
you tell me about that? Well, Um, we threw a
barbecue on myself and some friends and I um over
(09:19):
on the block where we normally hung and we were
out there, um throughout that afternoon the time that they
say this murder happened to occur, we were definitely out there.
I heard a dozen to two dozen people that could
verify where I was. How do how the hell they
tie you like, how they drag you in? You know,
(09:39):
I don't know. That's something I don't know to this day.
How I ever became a suspect. How I had no
link to the game, No ties, wasn't a part of
that gang or any gang for that matter. Uh, I'm
not sure until this day, that's still the question. No,
I never heard any dealings with the VIC them or
(10:01):
anybody that was alleginally involved in this crime. I do nothing.
So how did they like effectuate the rest? Like, how
was it the same day or later? Um? No, sir,
I was arrested like months later. I believe it was
like two months. I got arrested September the five of
that year, which is exactly like two months later. In
(10:23):
between the time of the murder and my actual arrest,
which was a couple of months, I had been arrested
for uh some type of disorderly conduct of gambling or
something like that. You know in our neighborhood the police
you know, sup you yeah, lord or those type of
(10:45):
and it's not a real big infraction. It's infraction that
you normally go to like uh, misdemeanor cord or something
for and they just threw it out normally in my neighborhood.
It's just the way to ring up guys. It's almost
like a taxation. Yeah, it's a feel quotas type of things.
Everybody know who's in charge. Yeah, basically, and with Chicago
(11:05):
p D, you're gonna respect the authority. Yeah. Really that's
definitely so. Um So I get one of those. It
was nothing major didn't do anything. So this particular morning,
if my arrest Sepamber the fourth was the day I
actually had court for this on offense. So I go
there the same way, I will, you have a court date,
(11:25):
nothing amiss, and I walk into build if police are there.
These aren't the regular police. These are like the tactical guys.
They're waiting on you. Yeah, they're waiting there. As soon
as I go through the metal detector, they acts like, so,
what's your name? And I tell them my name and
these officers grabbed me rough me you know, you know
how they do. You know what I'm saying, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(11:52):
So it's to grab you up, and I'm like for what,
you know what y're grabbing me for. My attorney's right
in the courtroom. So the whole thing was to prevent
me from getting a chance to notify my attorney. That's
that's That's something else too, because if they know you
have attorney, they're not supposed to ask you nothing. Well, right,
but they know my attorney was there in their courtroom. Um,
(12:15):
I was going to court. He was there. You know.
There's usually um a very clear path to why the
police pick somebody, right, one of the things that I
hear a lot from people who have not lived the
um life that we have lived. It's like, come on,
what they do? Just picked the name out of the hat.
(12:35):
I could never figure out in your case, Like how
how the hell did they pick you? You know, Um,
that's still a mystery to this day for me, just
as well as my legal team going forward. I can't
really tell you why they picked me out. I don't
know that would. That's something that baffles me to this day.
Even when you aren't guilty and you know you haven't
(12:58):
done anything, you still question yourself, like why me? Why
the hell did I? What could I have done differently?
You all like? And to this day, like I questioned
myself about that. I don't know what I could have
done differently because I don't know anything in regards to
what happened that day. This episode is sponsored by the
(13:25):
a I G pro Bono Program. Hey I G is
a leading global insurance company, and the ai G pro
Bono Program provides free legal services as well as other
support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals who
are most in need, and they recently announced that working
to reform the criminal justice system will become a key
(13:46):
pillar of the program's mission. The police arrested Eric without
him warrant, and they took him to the station, but
he has no idea what's going on. You got machine,
just being dragged away from your family, dragged away from
your house, and the police took their time and telling
(14:07):
him what this was all about. Eventually they tell me
that I'm there for murder. The only thing I could
tell you is that's like the most earth shaking, earth
shattering like moment that I could tell you. You know,
it was like, you know, hearing the record, you know,
stop like murder, Yeah, murder. I've never been nobody accused
(14:28):
of nothing remotely like that. Now. It was like, hold on,
they tell you murder, and they leave out again, and
they leave you for a while and then they yeah, yeah.
Then they come back in and they're like, okay, you
want to tell us what happened now, and I don't
know what happened, and I'm denying, and they steady trying
to do it. You know, uh, hey, well maybe it
(14:49):
didn't happen this way, Maybe it happened that way. You want, yeah,
we know you weren't the person. And those are things
that they go out go over, they say, and do
a lot of different things to out those three days.
It really was like I've never been so broke down
and so dejected and so defeated in my life. I'll
just say that, like just being in that just having
(15:12):
people because oftly yelled and badger you and tell you
and talk to you like you the lowest, dirtiest thing
in the world and accused you of doing something like
so horrific. You know, it just shouted you. It broke me.
I was a nineteen year old kid. I never went
through nothing like that before. I was just you know,
(15:35):
I was scared, I was defeated. I was hurt. I
didn't know and like, man, you just don't know what
to do in that situation. And you were a kid
in there. Man, the stuff that those grown man subject
kids to like in that, Like you know what I'm saying.
One of the detectives on this case was James Sanchez,
and since all this happened, he got promoted to commander
(15:56):
despite having at least ninety formal complaints of miscond ed
up against him. So, yeah, this is this character right here,
He's the one actually interrogating eric Um. Yeah. Mr Sanche
is like I called him out his name. I cursed
at him. He said something to me. I cursed at him,
like game, I asks a nice one to face Yeah,
(16:17):
just to the face. Yeah, yeah, you know what it it
means business. Yeah yeah, I got his point of cross.
I didn't say that no more. After his interrogation. He
waited for his trial behind bars and Cookaine Jail for
two years, being stuck in that place. It's one of
the most dreadful, crepit, dilapidated places that you could ever
(16:41):
throw so many people in is rats, roaches, knives, violence, gangs,
if you name it, you get tyrannical police officers or
corrections officers that which is do what that like? It
was rough. I've seen people be stabbed if you name it, choked, strangled,
(17:04):
I've seen all kinds of things like happened to people
that I've seen one guy like set on fire. Like
it's some of the things that you wake up to
when you have nowhere to go, no where to room.
You're just stuck. You're just there. So by the time
you get the trial, it's almost like it's almost like
a relief. What is the States, like, what's their case
(17:25):
in chief? What do they present where we started trial
about two years later, and the state's whole case in
chief was the identifications of Ms McDowell and Ms Reese,
And that was the only thing, Um, I never forget it.
Miss French and Reese testified to seeing their offend his
(17:48):
face for property four to five seconds. Miss mcdown testified
to seeing it only for like two or three. Before trial,
American's mother put together a list a potential alibi witnesses
that could confirm he was at the Fourth of July
barbecue and not down at Fat Albert's restaurant where the
(18:08):
crime was committed. My mom made the calls to two
people that day, uh to ultimately come to my trial
and testify and my defense with those two alibi witnesses,
two of the people from hard On forty. Yeah, that
he hadn't even spoken to until my trial attorney hadn't
(18:28):
even spoken to until that. More than that, they showed
up waiting for trial. Just for the record, you're waiting
for trial two years and he hasn't even spoke to
two witnesses but a few hours before trial. Yeah. According
to them, that the first time they ever met or
spoke with him was like and it wasn't even hours
he spoke to them, like probably for a short period
(18:52):
prior to them getting understand I kind of felt like okay, um,
not really okay, But I know I got an Alabam.
I know I had a bunch of people that know
where I would. You know, I just know that there's
a mistake, that this would be straightened out. But the lawyer,
he he doesn't really follow up. He didn't, the police
(19:14):
didn't follow up, the lawyer didn't follow up. At that point,
I was a layman. I knew nothing about the law
going in. I didn't. It's like you're really learning as
you go alone, and to say a part, as you're
learning with your life. No room forever, Yeah, no room forever.
Before his trial, Eric's attorney convinced him to take a
(19:35):
bench trial. In a jury trial, you pick your twelve jurors. However,
in a bench trial, the judge is the sole trial fact.
He's the one who hears the evidence and determines guilt
or innocence. So you're putting all your eggs in one basket.
He said that in my situation, it was a better
(19:56):
to go. When he definitely convinced me, he gave me
a lot of different reasons, and like, and I really
didn't want to go, Like I really didn't want it.
But you're a kid, it's your first aimeple, do understand
who would you listen to other than the person that's
supposed to defend you your attorney. An attorney and his
(20:16):
client are in a fidciary relationship. He's supposed to look
out for your best interests. He's supposed to defend you zealously.
In retrospect, as a jail house lawyer, I could tell
you take a bench trial is a terrible idea. It
closes out a bunch of chances for your appeal to
be heard because a lot of the issues actually become
(20:37):
non issues because the judges presumed to know the law.
But Eric, he didn't know this at the time. He
was just a kid. On September twenty seven, the judge
found Eric Blackman guilty of murder and was sinced to
sixty years in prison. I never forget my mom list
in that courtroom and like as a shriek that she
(20:58):
let out was like, M That's something I'll never forget
because we know I hadn't done it. Everybody knew it.
Everybody the whole neighborhood, everybody, the police. They even knew
even when they were saying it in that room, they
knew that I hadn't done They knew it, but they
told me say it well, asked the jail, you're gonna
(21:19):
go through all of this, and those things played through
my mind. What was gonna happen when I got to
the penitentiary, my kids, my family. Hearing that guilty verdict
was like, ain't gonna hand and he wanted the worst,
if not the worst day of my life ever, just
(21:40):
no one. I didn't do it. It was hard to
sleep at night. I couldn't I couldn't I come rest,
I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I thought about killing
myself so many times, even tried once. By the time
(22:13):
I met Eric, he's working hard to save his own life.
I met him in the law library and he was
deep deep into books, trying to learn everything he could
to get himself out of there. I think you were
the one that told me, because I used to everybody
pro say, gets no play, like that's like one of
my things, Like you represent yourself, forget about it, right,
So you I think you were the first one told
(22:35):
me us. Like, man, it's like, what you mean, Uh,
If I ain't got a little you ain't getting out jail.
So you file stuff yourself and actually got some type
of rhythm, right, I mean not at first obviously, right.
So yeah, we went through UM the process, and I
(22:56):
went through UM the direct impure process, the posting action
process that was denied. Both of those were denied. The
next step for Eric was still pealed to the federal
courts with the rid of Habiest Corpus, a petition that
claims you've been in prison and violation of your constitutional rights.
It's your first and last federal pell The only time
(23:18):
that the federal courts will ever look at a conviction
or overturned the conviction is if the state courts did
not convict you correctly according to federal law, the US
constitutional law. So basically you have to find not only
that they were wrong, but they have to be more
(23:40):
than wrong. They had to be so agreed just as
to where like I mean, it's a high bar to pass.
You have to ask the district judge, the guy who
smashes you in the head, give me a letter that
you did me wrong, so I can take it to
your boss. Yeah, so you asked him to reconsider his decision.
If he doesn't, then and you have to find what
(24:02):
they call a certificate of appallability to him. And that's
where you have to get him or heard to say
where they were wrong, which they very very rarely do.
We get to the point where the certificate of appellability
is Granny and I get these great attorneys and re
Dale and David p Chrome. I appreciate them so much
because after what I had been through with the first attorney,
(24:24):
I gave them hell. And it wasn't intentionally, it was
just because trust yeah, that was my life. I had
been my baby for so long. I finally had got
some you know, and I just couldn't give it up,
you know what I'm saying. So you go through it
and like, man, they were the best attorneys that I
ever could have asked for. Those people understood and they
(24:47):
love me. Like even when I was an asked when
I was wrong, I had badgered them about what they
were going to argue. What you're gonna say? You no
saying like this, No, I just I'd like to be
told how good hey look mhm, I mean hey, I
was the only person that's gonna go back and do
that time at the end of the day. So the
(25:08):
jail say, hey, we get to go back. We're elated.
But another problem presents itself. I have been in jail
at that point so long. Money is depleted, don't have
many people around the help. Um, you have a new trial,
you have a new case. What you're gonna do? How
(25:30):
do you proceed going forward? And uh, Mr Krone he
was like, hey, we got a few options. And one
of those options was we could see if the c
w C, the Center Role for Convictions, will be willing
to take your case. I tell him, yeah, you could
do whatever you want. But I asked him and they
(25:51):
see it. No good luck with that. Yeah, so you know,
we come we have this attorney meeting and I see
these the new faces I've never seen this were a
little small, wildly looked woman like she barely stood over
the table like. And she was like, hey, I'm caring Daniels.
And she was like, yes, we're gonna be here and
(26:13):
taking your case and we're looking forth working with you.
And the first thing I said was when she got finished,
was like, hey, but y'all told me no before. Why
are you telling me no before, and like I was
just sitting there intently waiting on the answer, and she
didn't say anything. She just gave me that mother look
and looked at the paper and leave it to me.
(26:35):
And I signed that paper and that was one of
the best things that I've ever done for my life.
And that lawyer was Karen Daniel made she rest in peace.
She was a renowned wrawful convictions attorney who at the
time was a co director of the Center for wrang
(26:55):
for Convictions. She and the students she supervised one more
than twenty exoneration cases during her career. She was a
great woman, a real hero who helped me out when
I was lost in the airport come from Georgia and
she really didn't even know me. She died in a
tragic hit and running car crash, in a loss that's
(27:17):
felt deeply across the innocence movement community. She liked my
second mother. I often tell people like that, Uh, she
the one who gave me my second birth, who gave
me my second life. So to me, like, yeah, she
was like my mother. And she just did so much
like in a way for this community. If she didn't
(27:39):
work your case, that didn't get you an attorney. She
made some precedent that you ultimately ended up using, and
everybody benefited from arrogance. New team of lawyers brought his
case to US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge Ronald
Guzman granted Eric's petition for the habeas corpus, and he
(27:59):
was let our prison on bond penning of re trial.
Actually the same day I got out. I was living
life very barely because you always heard, you know, in
position that maybe you may go back. You know what
I'm saying. You knew what it was like. You know,
it was always hanking there. It's like walking around with
(28:20):
that black cloud of that am build over your head,
just waiting for it to drop, and you didn't know
what it would be. You know, I know that I
hadn't done anything, but I know I hadn't done anything,
you know, the first time. And um, I believe it's
the fall case that says even the innocent man still
faces a fifty fifty chance if he goes to trial.
(28:40):
So I knew what my chances were. I didn't want
to go back to jail, um, but I knew what
I had to do. Like we still here that heard
her to get across. I was scared as hell and
I wanted to prolonge as long as I could, But
then that really wasn't a viable thought. So I told
my attorneys to let's man trial. It was six months
(29:03):
after I got out, and we demanded trial, and uh,
when he came time, they decided not to proceed. They
dropped the charges. Then comes to celebration, No, not really,
because it was anti climactic. You think it's gonna be
over with. Then you think, like, hey, life is great.
(29:25):
You know a lot of us think that that would
be the end of the movie, right, Na, But it's
just the beginning. Because I hear that thing for like
more than half of my life. I didn't really know
like how to live without it, Like it was a
different era. We come home to a different it's a
(29:47):
different world, Yeah it really is. But then you you know,
you really just like wake up and you don't have
to worry about that, you don't have to go through
it anymore. But it's like, I don't know, I don't
even remember the point to where I didn't have to
go through it. So it's like it becomes our life
(30:09):
and it becomes almost like which we're defined by like
you're actually become a success story and just like you
start working c w C. Right, what is that like?
Where is the sweet part like in your work? And
you know what I mean, Like I tell people like this, Um,
I guess the great sweet spot is that you still
(30:30):
get a chance to work on trying to ultimately correct
the system or not allow whatever happened to me that
happened to the next person. You know, that's the part
that gets up and keep me driving, you know, keeps
me going. At the same time, it's like going back
to visit your tornment to over and over and over again,
(30:51):
because every time you pick up a case, it takes
you right back to that spot for you. Every time
I go to the court, you know, and I'm good,
I'm great, arap everything, But sometimes the same fear creeps
back is that first day when I was standing in
there and it's all consuming. It's all consuming. Yeah, So
(31:14):
I mean that I don't have a state Ville reference.
There's not a single day that I am not back there.
What I want to ask you, though, is what would
you invite the audience, how can they help you or
something that's near and dear to your heart right, your
what is your call to action? I guess my personal
(31:37):
call to action is to keep fighting, is to keep
on trying to do things to make our justice system better.
I know people might say that we have like a
great justice system, but I tell people, much like a
doctor King want to say that an injustice anywhere as
a threat to justice everywhere. So if one person is
in jail wrongfully, or if one person is over sentence,
(31:59):
the end of run is the it runs the chance
of it happening to two and three and four and
five and so more to where it will become the norm.
And I look at so many people that I sentenced today,
and I see a lot of people over sentence. We're
punitively punishing people consistently, like and what I mean by
(32:19):
that is, yeah, people make mistakes, people commit crimes, but
do we take their lives? Like for every infraction. We
have more people slated to die in prison now than
at any point in time before. So when I would
say the people, yeah, you could say somebody committed a
crime more or whatever I say to you, So what
(32:42):
do we do do we take the life from And
to the people that say yeah, I'll just say, hey,
what about that real stop signing that you ran? What
about that real light you ran? What penalty should you get?
You know? I work with a lot of different orgs.
So the first thing is I work for them in
carth that Justice Center, which is to a civil entity
(33:02):
that suits for people like us and other people who
you know, uh, face any civil rights violation. We do
things like voters rights, prisoner rights, solitary um, wrong for convictions,
wrong for death, police shooting, and those type of things.
So these are the things that I feel are really
near and dear to me being a chance to write
(33:22):
the system. I also work for the Chicago Torture Justice Center,
which works on uh basically trying to make sure that
all of the bird the John Birds torture victims, you know,
get justice in their cases. And I sit on the
board for that. And I also sitting on the board
for another or called the Justice Renewal Initiative, where we
(33:47):
try to give jobs to youth that are you know, uh,
disadvantaged and targeted or you know, return the citizens and
we try best to work with youth um on that
front to ultimately help them. Yeah, so they don't we
went through yeah, exactly important. So we'll have those links
to those organizations in the bio, hopefully everyone will check
(34:09):
them out. UM, you get to find a word this
closing arguments, I really really, really truly want thank you
for UM let me tell your story. I really commend you,
you know, survivor. Thanks. I guess I'll take this time
to just, um, thank the people that helped me to
get to this point, help me get freedom, help me
(34:31):
be sitting here with you all. I don't think that
I get a chance to say that, well, thank you,
and just tell those people how much they man, how
much every little thing that they ever did help me.
I thank all of those people, and and I'd just
like to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
(34:52):
thank you. I don't think I can say it enough.
Thank you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. The
senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our
producers are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn.
(35:14):
Our editor is Roxander Guidi, and special thanks to Jillian
Forstad for help on this episode. The music and this
production is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
(35:34):
wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and
Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too,
and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrongful
Conviction is a production of Lavul for Good Podcasts and
association with Signal Company Number One. Tune in next week
(36:05):
for the third and final episode of Wrongful Conviction, where
Patrick Persley plays the host and Patrick this time is
going to interview Jarvis Ballard about their tragic shared experience. Now,
both of them are innocent men who spent decades behind bars,
and in this intimate and highly emotional episode, they're going
to talk about the lies that landed Jarvis in prison
(36:26):
and the patterns of misconduct that play in so many
wrongful conviction cases, just like there's now. Patrick met Jarvis
the same time I did, which was that this year's
Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona. Both of us were
immediately taken by this larger than life character. This guy
just got out of prison after two decades, and he's
(36:47):
there representing himself in such a powerful way. So these
guys bonded immediately. It was an honor for me to
be able to facilitate their connection and to have Patrick
on the mic in my chair interviewing Jarvis. It just
means the world to me, so tune in listen next
(37:08):
Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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