March 26, 2026 • 30 mins
In the evening of May 22, 2005, Salvador A. Martinez was shot and killed in Camden, NJ. The notorious Camden Police Department eventually set its sights on Lance Alford, and after coercing three supposed eyewitnesses to identify and testify against Alford as the perpetrator, Alford was convicted of first-degree murder. Based on this testimony alone, Alford was sentenced to life in prison.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
On the night of May twenty second, two thousand and five,
a young man named Salvador Martinez was pushed to the
ground in an alleyway near Dudley Grange Park in Camden,
New Jersey. A few witnesses claimed to have seen two
assailants rifling through his pockets before one of them fatally
shot Salvador, and police took a statement from one of
the witnesses named Carol Laughlin, who would eventually name twenty
(00:28):
four year old Lance.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Alford Karl Laughlan. When she first got asked about the situation,
she said, yeah, I did see the guy's face, but
he's not from Ruanda Aira. I'm from Randa area. Then
she get locked up for all personal charges. Now I'm
going to go see her again. And somehow got my
name man to pitch on. How to get my name
on the pitch? I don't know, And.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Perhaps a more salient question is not how, but whom.
The person leading this investigation for the Camden County Prosecutor's
Office was Sergeant Martin Devlin, who we've seen in multiple
wrongful conviction cases practicing a similar pattern. Single photo identifications
shown to alleged witnesses with something to gain.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The three eyewitnesses who did testify against Lance at the
trial were shown a single photo of Lance rather than
a photo array. And when you're shown a single photo,
that's a very suggestive form of identification. The police are
telling you this is who we think committed the crime.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
By the time Lance was taken to trial, Carol Laughlin's
story had changed to something that was provably false.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Our statement about how you've seen a guy get shot
while he was standing up don't even match up with
this forensic evidence in the case. And it's still that's
the leader chest to fly on me. Come on, man,
I'm playing games. I playing all my life. I'm Lance
the mole with some benefit of the client. I'm a
blocked up Elias six. And that never got out ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
From Love of for Good Podcasts, this is wrong Full
conviction with Maggie Freeling today. Lance Alford Camden, New Jersey,
is a small city just over the Delaware River from Philadelphia,
(02:20):
where an industrial boom in the late nineteenth century was
followed by a bust in the mid to late twentieth
century when company is left town for cheaper labor, leaving
the economy and quality of life too Crumple.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I was born in Canden nineteen eighty and I know
my mother she was on all was looking two jobs,
tied to low for three kids. She finally decided how
to move out of Candaen into Cherry Hill in nineteen
eighty six eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Cherry Hill is an affluent, mostly white suburb, a recipient
of what was known as white flight during the Great
Migration of the Jim Crow era, when many African Americans
ventured north for potentially kinder communities as opposed to the South,
only to see large swaths of white folks head to
the suburbs from the cities, bringing their tax base and
(03:11):
school funding with them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
No, I loved it out there, you know what I mean.
School was out there, good at everything. Moved out there
for a while and were doing good out there. But
my dad got murdered with in nineteen eighty eight in Camden. Yeah,
when I was eight years old. You know, my mom
got a call and she was telling me like, YO,
got to call your dad got shot. And all I
remember is my mother like taking all three kids to
(03:35):
the hospital, Cooper Hospital and Camden and it was like
sorry to tell you that, just get kid's father to
make it, you know what I mean, And I'm like, wow,
I was like seven, eight years old my father passed away.
I'm like, well, I ain't know how to feel. That
was young. It hit me hard, but I ain't know
how to feel.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
In the aftermath of that loss, Lance's mother kept the
kids in Cherry Hill for as long as she could.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
In seventh grade, I moved back to camp I say,
ninety two ninety three, comments like it's too hard out here,
pay the bills to move back to Cambon. So we
back out there in a hard place to go up.
So we're just trying to make ends, meeting survive, That's
what we could. I felt like I had to fill
a void and try to help my mother take care
of us. Me doing that, I was drawing into like
the environment around me, you know what I mean. You
(04:20):
got caught up and selling drugs and everything. But I wasn't. No,
I'm not the type of dude that. I wasn't no
type of like hard gangster do nothing like that. Was
just trying to make money, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
It wasn't long before Lance was pinched for possession, putting
him on the radar of the local authorities, and by
spring two thousand and five, Lance was twenty four years old,
and it appeared that local police were actively trying to
pin something more serious on him.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Before I got locked up. I remember I was sitting
on the bus stop this at nighttime, like four or
five cop cars caulled over on me or the shit
of the prosecutor want to speak to you. I'm like,
what what you mean? Now? Only you talking about? They
put me in the course, put me down to the
station and he put me in a little room behind
a one dough and he gets these people to come
in there and they like try to identify me something
(05:06):
like them like what are they doing? And all I
heard was number of people saying, no, it's not the guy.
I'm the guy, like look at Ellid Talma, I'm on.
After that, I got locked up for this.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So Lance was dragged into a single person lineup for
either this or something else entirely, we're not sure. But
what we do know is that on the night of
May twenty second, two thousand and five, on a very
narrow street with even narrower alleyways that run between some
of its row houses, a young man named Salvador Martinez
was fatally shot in one of those alleyways that lead
(05:37):
out to the north side of Dudley Grange Park, a
park that was known for folks hanging out, drinking and
drug use. And so there were a number of witnesses
in the area, including two women named Lillian Davis and
Carol Loughland, as well as a man named Fia Kim,
but that night no one could identify the assailants.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
The ihnesses of the crime observed two men wearing hoodies
shoot this man, Salvador Martinez, and it was super dark.
This was late at night, and all of the eyewitnesses
testified to being very far away from the crime. Didn't
get a super good look. But yeah, just two guys,
one short and one tall, running away from the scene.
(06:19):
But neither of those heights corresponded to Lance, who is
much taller than even the tall guy.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
That was Julia Kingston, one of the students with the
Princeton making an axonery program. She and a fellow student
named Nelson Rogers, among a few others, reinvestigated the case.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
There were several really compelling eyewitnesses who were not interviewed
or didn't testify in his trial, and I think they
were latantly overlooked during the investigation process.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, two of the witnesses who we spoke with, Wanda
Lane and Keith Pennington, signed affidavits swearing to their presence
on the scene and their confidence that it was not
Lance who committed the crime.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And so the question becomes what changed for other witnesses
and why Lance.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
So Lance was involved in dealing drugs in Camden at
the time, and so he was already on the police's radar.
And also we have reason to believe that Lance he
got in an altercation with someone who then was like
out to get him.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
He was in an altercation with someone whose father, I think,
then said I'm gonna go get Lance Alfred, and then
I believe went to the police and said it was
Lance Alfred who shots out on Martinez. That's how he
gets wrapped up in the whole situation.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
At that point, it appears that the detectives revisited some
of the witnesses to show them a single photo it
was of Lance.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That's a very suggestive form of identification. Normally a witness
has shown an array of photos and the idea there
is just to not suggest to them this is who
the police think committed the crime. To make it as
fair as possible, the detectives in our case, Detective Greer
and Falco as lucidated, had really shoddy investigation techniques, interrogation techniques,
(08:04):
but the whole thing was overseen by Sergeant Marty Devlin,
who has since been put on trial for perjury and
so is known as a pretty dirty cop.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Our listeners may remember Sergeant Martin Devlin from other cases
we've covered, Tony Wright, Jimmy Dennis, Walter Agrod, Troy Coleman,
Pedro Reinoso. All while Devlin was in Philly, and while
he retired, Devlin went to work as an investigator for
the Camden County Prosecutor's office.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
He was the supervios of mar cause I'll see the pattern.
So the things he was going to Philadelphia with the
seconding people to say what he wanted to say. Coherson people,
you know what I mean. The TAC day he was doing.
It was a real aggressive This guy was a lot
of damage in CANBD and it's Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Lance's attorney Justin Bonas has discovered a cohort of men
out of Camden, some of whom have come to know
each other. While in prison after it appears that Martin
Devlin helped put them there with the same pattern of
single photo identifications made by coerced or incentivized eyewitnesses. We'll
link to our coverage of Manfred Younger's case. Another that
(09:06):
Justin brought to us before participating in the Making an
Axonery program with Lance.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
As Justin said in our documentary, and when you're shown
a single photo, the police are telling you this is
who we think committed the crime.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And speaking with Justin, you know, we learned about single
photo identification and how police get around that by claiming
that the witnesses know the person, and so the police
essentially claim that these strangers know Lance from wherever, even
though there's testimony in Affidavid's kind they come kind of
(09:40):
after the fact that showed they don't know him at all,
which means that this single photo procedure really is not valid.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And it seems like these investigators were well aware of
how unreliable the identifications were, especially when speaking with witnesses
Lillian Davis and Carol Laughland.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Cal Laughlin once she first got I asked about the situation,
she said, Yeah, I did see the guy's face, but
he's not from Ruanda area. I'm from Randa area. Then
she get locked it for all personal charges. They should
go see her again? Is it this guy? Now? She
want to get out of Jesmore and say yeah, come
on man really, But.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Lillian Davis had no reason to cooperate or be pliable.
She refused to make the idea, even though she stood
right next to Carrol that night. Then Devlyn, Greer and
Falco went to Tia Kim, who was facing charges while
in probation as a sex offender, and it seems in
order to avoid being thrown back in prison, thea Kim
was now ready to cooperate as well, saying that the
(10:39):
two assailants he'd seen running out of the alley had
passed him in the park and now he claimed that
he'd seen Lance's face, and later Kim claimed that he'd
seen the other guy's face too, someone he remembered from
middle school. Zier McDaniels.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Zaia is my cousin. That's my first cousin, has mother
and my mother assistant. This papa lied to me about
what I was there for the station, saying I was
here for warns. You know what I mean, traveling I'm like,
what when they locked me up for us? When they
cop said you know what you're here for, it's like
here for a murder. I'm like a murder. So I
knew the dude got shot because I'm just from the area,
but when they put it on me, I'm like, what
the hell y'all talking about it.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Lance was at home with his girlfriend Aisha at the time.
His mother, Gloria, was also at home at the time
with the two of them. And this was over twenty
years ago and Aisha and Lance are no longer involved.
She has gone on to have a family and children
with someone else, and to this day still swears that
she was with Lance that night and he could not
have committed the crime.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I tried to explain so on my side of the story,
but they kind of like like, no, we know what
you know. You know, you get it, like, oh, I've
done something to y'all because they don't want to let
him out. They didn't want to hear me out, so
you know what I mean. I was locked up in
Live six, two thousand and five, and I never got
out ever since. Naddy. That's the thing. At any time,
(12:11):
I mean, like that was his day time selling job
and all that. I ain't having money for Bell, like
man that was three hundred and fifty cash. I mean,
I didn't have money for that.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
While Lance and Zaire were in pre trial attention, another
alleged witness named Jacob Eller came forward.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
This guy came to them five months after the murders,
told employd to called the prosecutal how'd you help me
out of jail? He's telling them the dude so drugged me,
which is allied. I don't even know this guy like that.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Eller, who was seeking leniency in his own charges, claimed
that he'd overheard a discussion about the victim owing Lance
money and claimed that he saw Lance get into his
car with a gun. But on the eve of trial,
it's believed that Eller told investigators he had lied and
did not want to testify, which is then believed to
have had prompted a recorded statement on February twenty first,
(13:01):
two thousand and seven, where Eller said that he only
wanted to avoid testifying out of fear of reprisal from
the defendants. Strange that they'd get him on the record
about that, right anyway.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
My trials started February twenty second, two thousand and seven
and getting the trout. Jury came forward, said one of
the drawers was talking about my tattoo on my face
because I got a tear drop on my face, and
my tear drops represent my father getting murdered and my
grandma I'm dying. So one of the drawers took that
(13:34):
ass he got a tattoo and his favorable boy, he
might have did something for the warm. Oh, none of
the jews told another draw about that to the judge.
So the one that brought it up, she said, I'm
talking about his tattoo because I need these certain things.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
A tear drop tattoo can mean personal hardship like a
lost loved one, or that one has committed an act
of violence or murder. So now everyone in the jury
was thinking about the potential meaning of Lance's tear drop
as trial began, where the state presented Jacob Eller, who
testified consistently with his November two thousand and five statement
while the state was ready with his video statement in
(14:07):
case he welched, and when he was cross examined about
his deal, he said that he was seeking justice for
his friend while also trying to secure release. The prosecution
also reminded trial Council at sidebar to back off where
they'd play his video statement from the day prior. Then
the Akim testified.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
THEA. Kim was saying he was in a park smoking,
drigging and you need see the guy get shy. You'd
seen his spot. He see two guys all black on
run from the crime. See he weighed a back in
a park. So they run towards film and keep runing
towards Silm till he's seen a face it.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
THEA Kim identified both Lance and Zayre, and on cross trial,
Council was able to raise that Kim was on probation
for a sex crime facing another charge, and that he
already entered a plea agreement with the prosecution in April
two thousand and six, but Kim claimed that his testimony
had nothing to do with the deal he got. In addition,
(15:00):
he said that he remembered Zayer from middle school.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm like, hold up, how did he go to school? Well,
he seven years older than him, So they conversed him
and say, oh nah, now he must have just say
you see him around the school. I'm like, come on now.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
And Carol Laughlin's testimony had problems as well.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Her statement about how the dude died don't even match
up with that this forensic evidence in the case she
talking about she seen the guy get shot while he
was standing up. The forensic evant said, the dude got
shot while he was on the ground, laying on the ground.
And then you got Lilian Davis, lets me standing right
next to Cheryl Laughlin. Loily and David said she couldn't
see nobody's face, and Karl was standing right next to
her saying the guy ran up to her, and she
got like, what Lillian and David didn't say that, So
(15:40):
why y'all story's not adding up? She giving a totally
different counts. So I'm like, come on now, and they
still let this lady check the fire lie on me.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
But Lance still had his alibi witnesses, his girlfriend and mother,
and then my lawyer never called.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Her in there, So they tell you got a thing.
They tell you said the witness cannot be in trial,
have my mother sit outside of trial the whole time,
And I'm like, why are you doing? Why you didn't
call my mother? Might behaved.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Unfortunately, loved ones are often easy to impeach as willing
to lie, But now neither of the women he loved
could support him through what happened next.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Going to the end of trial, and the jury sent
a note to the judge just may tell and the
one note was like, we want to read all the
witness is testimony back over again. And he basically told
them they couldn't do that because they don't have a
video of a witness testimony yet. And he told them
it's gonna take it longer to read it over than
it was before. So I'm like, why would he say that,
(16:35):
Why would he tell him something gonna take longer. Joey
don't want to be there that long anyway. The don't
want to hear that word longer period. So he told
him go back in there. After that, it was like
just to the all charges. They feel like you're getting
the air knocked out of you, like and this is
gonna be my life for the rest of my life.
(17:05):
They sent me in the Jersey State Prison, you know
what I mean, the Maximwell President in Jersey. So get here,
get quarantine for a week. Then they send me to
another unit. Call for a right man. This for a
right unit. It's like an old horse people. I don't
know if you know if anything about this prison right here,
the West compound, this prison when they first built this thing,
and two hundred years ago, two d fify years ago.
(17:27):
This thing is old. Man, it's crazy. And I'm like, whoa,
you got me standing the horse people. It's crazy. Like
it's like I was like messed up in the head
when I've seen this stuff. It's still old in here,
you know what I mean. You got to actually go
to the bathroom in a metal box in the wall,
you know what I mean. It's crazy. It's it's terrible. Man. Man,
(17:49):
They've been supposed to condemn this spot right here when
I'm at but yeah, it's spooky here, man, crazy, it's crazy.
It's not to laugh, but I laugh to keep myself
in crying. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Serious, it is serious. They've got these men staying in
what looks like a horse stable, in a structure that
was built during the era of slavery, which really has
never ended since. According to the thirteenth Amendment, both he
and Ziara could now be put to work next to
everyone else in prison for free, so in their effort
(18:22):
to escape enslavement. On appeal, they pointed out that Kim
had entered into another plea agreement with the prosecution just
four days after their trial, which certainly called his credibility
into question.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
They had us on the feel at Saint Tom he
only had kim Lan on him. I had two people
on you know what I mean. They gave him a
new trial. They're not my teal. And then when he
got a new trial, he went back to court and
he was like, he was telling me, like, they're not
playing fair. They're not trying to hear us our side
of the story. They still think we built the other stuff.
So he like they flowed us once. So he said,
(18:59):
I'm not going back to drought. I'm taking a deal.
He went back at a good deal again, I think
sixty years, which is still.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So wrong, but at least not as harsh as the
life sentence. Lance still had to fight.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, what they tell you first come down. You gotta
fight for your life, man. You gotta tell all library
and get the knowledge and understand it of your case
and try to know the law. That's what I did.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Lance filed a post conviction relief motion based on ineffective
assistance of Council, raising how trial council failed to elicit
from Jacob Eller that he told the prosecutor that he'd
lied in his original statement, as well as that trial
council knew about the Kim's post trial plea deal but
failed to confront him with it. Additionally, that trial council
(19:42):
failed to present his alibi or alternate suspects. Apparently there
were witnesses who named two other individuals that went by
Ghostface and Romulus, but since the evidence to support these
claims were not properly developed or presented in the post
conviction motion, it was denied in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So denied so much. And after a while he used
to be come numb to it when you get by
time to get to the Feds and the hey, you
come numb to it, like it's gonna be my life.
But I had a feeling. I was like, man, I
just had to keep going, keep fighting. I can't lay down.
So I had to get Affidavid and proved to him
that I had people become a court on my behalf.
So I look at Affi David and submit that in
court and show him, like listen what I had. I
gave it to the lawyer. He never submitted it, you know,
(20:22):
I mean, he never investigated by alibi. So they sent
it back on her. Farsel Remaan on that in twenty twenty.
It was like an everdiction here. It proved to him
that I told my attorney about my alibi. So that's
what they send it back on. I got that open
right now waiting on that. And at the same time,
that's what I've heard about what Justin did with toront
Hill attorney.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And friend of the show, Justin Bonus one relief for
another innocent man out of Camden Tarren Hill, and from
his case he discovered a whole host of others that
involved Martin Devlin, single photo identifications and incentivized or coerced
false testimony.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Tomorrow told them about me. Another guy's in here, and
that's how we ran, In suggested, and Justin, I'm like, man,
he did God answer my prayer? Because I need help.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Justin Bonus, Lance's attorney hired a private investigator named Bill Trump,
who was able to track down both Carol Laughlin and
THEA Kim, who both admitted that the police essentially told
them what to say, and they repeated the police's instructions.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
THEA Kim said, I've never seen Lance in my life.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
This has happened in twenty twenty three, when Via Kim
recanned his statement and saying, Hi, he was cohersed by
all the investigators because he was a probation. The effective nay,
he said, if you didn't say what we want to say,
we want to Valley said, probation.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
I believe the police said something to the effect of, luck,
we can make this all go away if you say
that you know this guy, and so that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Charl Lughton basically said the same thing Kim said because
she didn't really want to talk. But she's basically said
to the investigator, she did what they told her to do.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
You know what I mean, we already know. Carol Laughlin
was unreliable as she was inconsistent over three interviews and
trial testimony. Her narrative conflicted with both the forensic evidence
as well as Lily and Davis, who was allegedly standing
right next to her during the crime. In addition, she
only decided to name Lance in exchange for leniency in
her own charges. In addition to THEA Kim and Carol Loughland,
(22:19):
the private investigator spoke with new witnesses Londa Lane and
Keith Pennington.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Investigator William Trump. He when got statement for me, I
wouldn't stand that he was here at the time to
try on happened, and he knew I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Unfortunately, Jacob Eller could not be located. But we know
that the prosecution was motivated to create a video on
the day before trial with Eller saying that he didn't
want to testify out of fear of reprisal, which came
in handy to make trial council back off and cross
examination and would have been useful if Eller chose to
recant on the witness stand. So, while this has all
(22:54):
been added to an amended petition, Lance sought clemency from
the governor.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yeah, so we've actually had some pretty good news. His
sentence was commuted by Governor Murphy of New Jersey, which
we think is a huge deal. There were thousands of
clemency applications and he only granted a couple hundred. I
think he'll be eligible for parole beginning in twenty thirty.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
As part of his commutation, he's also being moved to
a lower security facility.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Obviously, this is not a total exoneration, which is what
we would desire for him, but given that the alternative
is a life in prison. We're really excited that the
end is in sight for him and his family.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
You know, when you sit across from Lance and Lance's
mom and Lance's brother, and at the documentary screening we
were sat in the road just in front of his niece,
and when you see how this wrongal incarceration is so
brutal on the family, that like, this is an experience
that will never leave me and that will always always
(23:56):
inform how I go about my business with integrity. Compare
right now, I'm a paralegal in a prosecutor's office and
I'm considering it. You know, longer term, the worst thing
that you can do as a prosecutor, hands down, is
what these people have done to Lance.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Julia, you know, how has your idea of the criminal
legal system changed from you know, doing this course in
Lance's case.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It's such a cliche, but it's cliche because it's true.
I really think it's just laid bare for me how
broken the criminal legal system is and how it's stacked
against poor people, black people, people who don't have resources.
And for me, I would say, I'm considering a path
in public defense, and I think, just like one of
(24:47):
The most important kind of moral imperatives I see is
the right to an effective assistance of counsel, and Lance
was not given that, and so many people are simply
not given that. This case really just elucidated for me
how much is broken in our system, and how really
what so many people need are just advocates and people
(25:08):
to not only tell their stories, but also people to
listen to their stories. I think that's something that's so
special about making an exonery. There's been a really high
success rate of people who have been able to walk
out of prison in the years following their participation in
this program. For every person who's been able to walk
out of prison, there are still plenty of program participants
who remain incarcerated to this day. But I think while
(25:31):
it's not a solution, but just having a room full
of one hundred people watch your documentary and hear your
story and have your story told in your words, on
your own terms, I think for a lot of the
participants in this program, that's just the really special experience
and a transformative one.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
What made you guys want to choose making an exonery
as something you were going to pursue.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I first learned about making an exonerate from a friend
who took the class at Georgetown a year or two
before and had just like rave reviews about it, and
she actually went on to work for the program in
the years after she graduated, and so when it finally
came to Princeton, she said to me, look, Nelson, you
have to do this. The two lawyers who are teaching
(26:15):
the class, who are Chelsea and Malkin and Yosha Gunnessikhara,
They're incredible. They are really kind people who are going
to like really ignite a passion in you for defense work,
which they did. I mean, they were amazing, and just
having the experience of working with a wrongfully convicted person,
(26:35):
their family, going to the prison, these are all experiences
that are incredibly transformative. You know, there's a lot of
people who you know in college are rightly really passionate about,
you know, criminal defense, but there's probably pretty few actually
who go to a prison to speak with incarcerated people there.
(26:59):
And so to be able to have really tangible experiences
like that is invaluable as we sort of take these
sort of first steps in our very nascent careers.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, I think for both of us we took this
course our senior spring, so it was one of the
final courses that we took during undergrad and I think
for me, I just was looking for something that could
make me feel like I was leaving college and going
out into the world and actually doing something important that
wasn't just reading and discussing in a classroom, but that
I could actually have an experience where I could help
(27:30):
someone and knows a lot of work. Both of us
were writing our THESS while we were also going to
Philly and Camden every weekend to see Lance and to
conduct interviews and visit the crime scene. And so it
was definitely quite the chaotic spring, but also so so
rewarding in the end.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
We definitely hope to see great things from both of
you in the future. We'll also link to the documentary
that you both made about this case in the episode description,
along with contact information for his attorney. Justin bonus well,
the commutation to an earlier parole eligibility is progress. Lance
should not be spending another minute in prison, let alone
another five or ten years. So we are begging if
(28:14):
anyone out there has information, please come forward.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I gotta be a blessing. I get more information
not like somebody came forth like a month ago. The
dude they're suposed to did the crime locked up for
becausessed him. They did the crime. The investigator will of
Trump talked to him also. He told the merry thing
like it was, I was locked up with this guy
ball in the fence and he told me everything that
he did about this crime. He got two innocent guys
locked up, and that was a blessed. I got that
(28:40):
statement open that you have one good minute remaining. So
it's a blessing. It's blessed that you guys are doing.
It is to bring more life to the situation that
I'm marry. You know, I mean exposed stuff that was
done in the dark. You know, I mean to my situation.
So I'm glad that you guys are bringing a delight
to the situation, you know what I mean. So I'm
thankful for working with you, you know what I mean,
(29:00):
and any anybody else to do the work out, bring
the truth out.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
I thank you, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction
with Maggie Freeling. I'd like to thank our production team
Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers
Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wortis, and Jeff Clyburn. The
music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR
(29:25):
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across
all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at
Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on all platforms
at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a
production of Lava for Good podcast in association with the
Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
On the night of May twenty second, two thousand and five,
a young man named Salvador Martinez was pushed to the
ground in an alleyway near Dudley Grange Park in Camden,
New Jersey. A few witnesses claimed to have seen two
assailants rifling through his pockets before one of them fatally
shot Salvador, and police took a statement from one of
the witnesses named Carol Laughlin, who would eventually name twenty
(00:28):
four year old Lance.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Alford Karl Laughlan. When she first got asked about the situation,
she said, yeah, I did see the guy's face, but
he's not from Ruanda Aira. I'm from Randa area. Then
she get locked up for all personal charges. Now I'm
going to go see her again. And somehow got my
name man to pitch on. How to get my name
on the pitch? I don't know, And.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Perhaps a more salient question is not how, but whom.
The person leading this investigation for the Camden County Prosecutor's
Office was Sergeant Martin Devlin, who we've seen in multiple
wrongful conviction cases practicing a similar pattern. Single photo identifications
shown to alleged witnesses with something to gain.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
The three eyewitnesses who did testify against Lance at the
trial were shown a single photo of Lance rather than
a photo array. And when you're shown a single photo,
that's a very suggestive form of identification. The police are
telling you this is who we think committed the crime.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
By the time Lance was taken to trial, Carol Laughlin's
story had changed to something that was provably false.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Our statement about how you've seen a guy get shot
while he was standing up don't even match up with
this forensic evidence in the case. And it's still that's
the leader chest to fly on me. Come on, man,
I'm playing games. I playing all my life. I'm Lance
the mole with some benefit of the client. I'm a
blocked up Elias six. And that never got out ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
From Love of for Good Podcasts, this is wrong Full
conviction with Maggie Freeling today. Lance Alford Camden, New Jersey,
is a small city just over the Delaware River from Philadelphia,
(02:20):
where an industrial boom in the late nineteenth century was
followed by a bust in the mid to late twentieth
century when company is left town for cheaper labor, leaving
the economy and quality of life too Crumple.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I was born in Canden nineteen eighty and I know
my mother she was on all was looking two jobs,
tied to low for three kids. She finally decided how
to move out of Candaen into Cherry Hill in nineteen
eighty six eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Cherry Hill is an affluent, mostly white suburb, a recipient
of what was known as white flight during the Great
Migration of the Jim Crow era, when many African Americans
ventured north for potentially kinder communities as opposed to the South,
only to see large swaths of white folks head to
the suburbs from the cities, bringing their tax base and
(03:11):
school funding with them.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
No, I loved it out there, you know what I mean.
School was out there, good at everything. Moved out there
for a while and were doing good out there. But
my dad got murdered with in nineteen eighty eight in Camden. Yeah,
when I was eight years old. You know, my mom
got a call and she was telling me like, YO,
got to call your dad got shot. And all I
remember is my mother like taking all three kids to
(03:35):
the hospital, Cooper Hospital and Camden and it was like
sorry to tell you that, just get kid's father to
make it, you know what I mean, And I'm like, wow,
I was like seven, eight years old my father passed away.
I'm like, well, I ain't know how to feel. That
was young. It hit me hard, but I ain't know
how to feel.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
In the aftermath of that loss, Lance's mother kept the
kids in Cherry Hill for as long as she could.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
In seventh grade, I moved back to camp I say,
ninety two ninety three, comments like it's too hard out here,
pay the bills to move back to Cambon. So we
back out there in a hard place to go up.
So we're just trying to make ends, meeting survive, That's
what we could. I felt like I had to fill
a void and try to help my mother take care
of us. Me doing that, I was drawing into like
the environment around me, you know what I mean. You
(04:20):
got caught up and selling drugs and everything. But I wasn't. No,
I'm not the type of dude that. I wasn't no
type of like hard gangster do nothing like that. Was
just trying to make money, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
It wasn't long before Lance was pinched for possession, putting
him on the radar of the local authorities, and by
spring two thousand and five, Lance was twenty four years old,
and it appeared that local police were actively trying to
pin something more serious on him.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Before I got locked up. I remember I was sitting
on the bus stop this at nighttime, like four or
five cop cars caulled over on me or the shit
of the prosecutor want to speak to you. I'm like,
what what you mean? Now? Only you talking about? They
put me in the course, put me down to the
station and he put me in a little room behind
a one dough and he gets these people to come
in there and they like try to identify me something
(05:06):
like them like what are they doing? And all I
heard was number of people saying, no, it's not the guy.
I'm the guy, like look at Ellid Talma, I'm on.
After that, I got locked up for this.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So Lance was dragged into a single person lineup for
either this or something else entirely, we're not sure. But
what we do know is that on the night of
May twenty second, two thousand and five, on a very
narrow street with even narrower alleyways that run between some
of its row houses, a young man named Salvador Martinez
was fatally shot in one of those alleyways that lead
(05:37):
out to the north side of Dudley Grange Park, a
park that was known for folks hanging out, drinking and
drug use. And so there were a number of witnesses
in the area, including two women named Lillian Davis and
Carol Loughland, as well as a man named Fia Kim,
but that night no one could identify the assailants.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
The ihnesses of the crime observed two men wearing hoodies
shoot this man, Salvador Martinez, and it was super dark.
This was late at night, and all of the eyewitnesses
testified to being very far away from the crime. Didn't
get a super good look. But yeah, just two guys,
one short and one tall, running away from the scene.
(06:19):
But neither of those heights corresponded to Lance, who is
much taller than even the tall guy.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
That was Julia Kingston, one of the students with the
Princeton making an axonery program. She and a fellow student
named Nelson Rogers, among a few others, reinvestigated the case.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
There were several really compelling eyewitnesses who were not interviewed
or didn't testify in his trial, and I think they
were latantly overlooked during the investigation process.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, two of the witnesses who we spoke with, Wanda
Lane and Keith Pennington, signed affidavits swearing to their presence
on the scene and their confidence that it was not
Lance who committed the crime.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And so the question becomes what changed for other witnesses
and why Lance.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
So Lance was involved in dealing drugs in Camden at
the time, and so he was already on the police's radar.
And also we have reason to believe that Lance he
got in an altercation with someone who then was like
out to get him.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
He was in an altercation with someone whose father, I think,
then said I'm gonna go get Lance Alfred, and then
I believe went to the police and said it was
Lance Alfred who shots out on Martinez. That's how he
gets wrapped up in the whole situation.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
At that point, it appears that the detectives revisited some
of the witnesses to show them a single photo it
was of Lance.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
That's a very suggestive form of identification. Normally a witness
has shown an array of photos and the idea there
is just to not suggest to them this is who
the police think committed the crime. To make it as
fair as possible, the detectives in our case, Detective Greer
and Falco as lucidated, had really shoddy investigation techniques, interrogation techniques,
(08:04):
but the whole thing was overseen by Sergeant Marty Devlin,
who has since been put on trial for perjury and
so is known as a pretty dirty cop.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Our listeners may remember Sergeant Martin Devlin from other cases
we've covered, Tony Wright, Jimmy Dennis, Walter Agrod, Troy Coleman,
Pedro Reinoso. All while Devlin was in Philly, and while
he retired, Devlin went to work as an investigator for
the Camden County Prosecutor's office.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
He was the supervios of mar cause I'll see the pattern.
So the things he was going to Philadelphia with the
seconding people to say what he wanted to say. Coherson people,
you know what I mean. The TAC day he was doing.
It was a real aggressive This guy was a lot
of damage in CANBD and it's Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Lance's attorney Justin Bonas has discovered a cohort of men
out of Camden, some of whom have come to know
each other. While in prison after it appears that Martin
Devlin helped put them there with the same pattern of
single photo identifications made by coerced or incentivized eyewitnesses. We'll
link to our coverage of Manfred Younger's case. Another that
(09:06):
Justin brought to us before participating in the Making an
Axonery program with Lance.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
As Justin said in our documentary, and when you're shown
a single photo, the police are telling you this is
who we think committed the crime.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
And speaking with Justin, you know, we learned about single
photo identification and how police get around that by claiming
that the witnesses know the person, and so the police
essentially claim that these strangers know Lance from wherever, even
though there's testimony in Affidavid's kind they come kind of
(09:40):
after the fact that showed they don't know him at all,
which means that this single photo procedure really is not valid.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And it seems like these investigators were well aware of
how unreliable the identifications were, especially when speaking with witnesses
Lillian Davis and Carol Laughland.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Cal Laughlin once she first got I asked about the situation,
she said, Yeah, I did see the guy's face, but
he's not from Ruanda area. I'm from Randa area. Then
she get locked it for all personal charges. They should
go see her again? Is it this guy? Now? She
want to get out of Jesmore and say yeah, come
on man really, But.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Lillian Davis had no reason to cooperate or be pliable.
She refused to make the idea, even though she stood
right next to Carrol that night. Then Devlyn, Greer and
Falco went to Tia Kim, who was facing charges while
in probation as a sex offender, and it seems in
order to avoid being thrown back in prison, thea Kim
was now ready to cooperate as well, saying that the
(10:39):
two assailants he'd seen running out of the alley had
passed him in the park and now he claimed that
he'd seen Lance's face, and later Kim claimed that he'd
seen the other guy's face too, someone he remembered from
middle school. Zier McDaniels.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Zaia is my cousin. That's my first cousin, has mother
and my mother assistant. This papa lied to me about
what I was there for the station, saying I was
here for warns. You know what I mean, traveling I'm like,
what when they locked me up for us? When they
cop said you know what you're here for, it's like
here for a murder. I'm like a murder. So I
knew the dude got shot because I'm just from the area,
but when they put it on me, I'm like, what
the hell y'all talking about it.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Lance was at home with his girlfriend Aisha at the time.
His mother, Gloria, was also at home at the time
with the two of them. And this was over twenty
years ago and Aisha and Lance are no longer involved.
She has gone on to have a family and children
with someone else, and to this day still swears that
she was with Lance that night and he could not
have committed the crime.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I tried to explain so on my side of the story,
but they kind of like like, no, we know what
you know. You know, you get it, like, oh, I've
done something to y'all because they don't want to let
him out. They didn't want to hear me out, so
you know what I mean. I was locked up in
Live six, two thousand and five, and I never got
out ever since. Naddy. That's the thing. At any time,
(12:11):
I mean, like that was his day time selling job
and all that. I ain't having money for Bell, like
man that was three hundred and fifty cash. I mean,
I didn't have money for that.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
While Lance and Zaire were in pre trial attention, another
alleged witness named Jacob Eller came forward.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
This guy came to them five months after the murders,
told employd to called the prosecutal how'd you help me
out of jail? He's telling them the dude so drugged me,
which is allied. I don't even know this guy like that.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Eller, who was seeking leniency in his own charges, claimed
that he'd overheard a discussion about the victim owing Lance
money and claimed that he saw Lance get into his
car with a gun. But on the eve of trial,
it's believed that Eller told investigators he had lied and
did not want to testify, which is then believed to
have had prompted a recorded statement on February twenty first,
(13:01):
two thousand and seven, where Eller said that he only
wanted to avoid testifying out of fear of reprisal from
the defendants. Strange that they'd get him on the record
about that, right anyway.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
My trials started February twenty second, two thousand and seven
and getting the trout. Jury came forward, said one of
the drawers was talking about my tattoo on my face
because I got a tear drop on my face, and
my tear drops represent my father getting murdered and my
grandma I'm dying. So one of the drawers took that
(13:34):
ass he got a tattoo and his favorable boy, he
might have did something for the warm. Oh, none of
the jews told another draw about that to the judge.
So the one that brought it up, she said, I'm
talking about his tattoo because I need these certain things.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
A tear drop tattoo can mean personal hardship like a
lost loved one, or that one has committed an act
of violence or murder. So now everyone in the jury
was thinking about the potential meaning of Lance's tear drop
as trial began, where the state presented Jacob Eller, who
testified consistently with his November two thousand and five statement
while the state was ready with his video statement in
(14:07):
case he welched, and when he was cross examined about
his deal, he said that he was seeking justice for
his friend while also trying to secure release. The prosecution
also reminded trial Council at sidebar to back off where
they'd play his video statement from the day prior. Then
the Akim testified.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
THEA. Kim was saying he was in a park smoking,
drigging and you need see the guy get shy. You'd
seen his spot. He see two guys all black on
run from the crime. See he weighed a back in
a park. So they run towards film and keep runing
towards Silm till he's seen a face it.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
THEA Kim identified both Lance and Zayre, and on cross trial,
Council was able to raise that Kim was on probation
for a sex crime facing another charge, and that he
already entered a plea agreement with the prosecution in April
two thousand and six, but Kim claimed that his testimony
had nothing to do with the deal he got. In addition,
(15:00):
he said that he remembered Zayer from middle school.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I'm like, hold up, how did he go to school? Well,
he seven years older than him, So they conversed him
and say, oh nah, now he must have just say
you see him around the school. I'm like, come on now.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
And Carol Laughlin's testimony had problems as well.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Her statement about how the dude died don't even match
up with that this forensic evidence in the case she
talking about she seen the guy get shot while he
was standing up. The forensic evant said, the dude got
shot while he was on the ground, laying on the ground.
And then you got Lilian Davis, lets me standing right
next to Cheryl Laughlin. Loily and David said she couldn't
see nobody's face, and Karl was standing right next to
her saying the guy ran up to her, and she
got like, what Lillian and David didn't say that, So
(15:40):
why y'all story's not adding up? She giving a totally
different counts. So I'm like, come on now, and they
still let this lady check the fire lie on me.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
But Lance still had his alibi witnesses, his girlfriend and mother,
and then my lawyer never called.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Her in there, So they tell you got a thing.
They tell you said the witness cannot be in trial,
have my mother sit outside of trial the whole time,
And I'm like, why are you doing? Why you didn't
call my mother? Might behaved.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Unfortunately, loved ones are often easy to impeach as willing
to lie, But now neither of the women he loved
could support him through what happened next.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Going to the end of trial, and the jury sent
a note to the judge just may tell and the
one note was like, we want to read all the
witness is testimony back over again. And he basically told
them they couldn't do that because they don't have a
video of a witness testimony yet. And he told them
it's gonna take it longer to read it over than
it was before. So I'm like, why would he say that,
(16:35):
Why would he tell him something gonna take longer. Joey
don't want to be there that long anyway. The don't
want to hear that word longer period. So he told
him go back in there. After that, it was like
just to the all charges. They feel like you're getting
the air knocked out of you, like and this is
gonna be my life for the rest of my life.
(17:05):
They sent me in the Jersey State Prison, you know
what I mean, the Maximwell President in Jersey. So get here,
get quarantine for a week. Then they send me to
another unit. Call for a right man. This for a
right unit. It's like an old horse people. I don't
know if you know if anything about this prison right here,
the West compound, this prison when they first built this thing,
and two hundred years ago, two d fify years ago.
(17:27):
This thing is old. Man, it's crazy. And I'm like, whoa,
you got me standing the horse people. It's crazy. Like
it's like I was like messed up in the head
when I've seen this stuff. It's still old in here,
you know what I mean. You got to actually go
to the bathroom in a metal box in the wall,
you know what I mean. It's crazy. It's it's terrible. Man. Man,
(17:49):
They've been supposed to condemn this spot right here when
I'm at but yeah, it's spooky here, man, crazy, it's crazy.
It's not to laugh, but I laugh to keep myself
in crying. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Serious, it is serious. They've got these men staying in
what looks like a horse stable, in a structure that
was built during the era of slavery, which really has
never ended since. According to the thirteenth Amendment, both he
and Ziara could now be put to work next to
everyone else in prison for free, so in their effort
(18:22):
to escape enslavement. On appeal, they pointed out that Kim
had entered into another plea agreement with the prosecution just
four days after their trial, which certainly called his credibility
into question.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
They had us on the feel at Saint Tom he
only had kim Lan on him. I had two people
on you know what I mean. They gave him a
new trial. They're not my teal. And then when he
got a new trial, he went back to court and
he was like, he was telling me, like, they're not
playing fair. They're not trying to hear us our side
of the story. They still think we built the other stuff.
So he like they flowed us once. So he said,
(18:59):
I'm not going back to drought. I'm taking a deal.
He went back at a good deal again, I think
sixty years, which is still.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So wrong, but at least not as harsh as the
life sentence. Lance still had to fight.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yes, what they tell you first come down. You gotta
fight for your life, man. You gotta tell all library
and get the knowledge and understand it of your case
and try to know the law. That's what I did.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Lance filed a post conviction relief motion based on ineffective
assistance of Council, raising how trial council failed to elicit
from Jacob Eller that he told the prosecutor that he'd
lied in his original statement, as well as that trial
council knew about the Kim's post trial plea deal but
failed to confront him with it. Additionally, that trial council
(19:42):
failed to present his alibi or alternate suspects. Apparently there
were witnesses who named two other individuals that went by
Ghostface and Romulus, but since the evidence to support these
claims were not properly developed or presented in the post
conviction motion, it was denied in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So denied so much. And after a while he used
to be come numb to it when you get by
time to get to the Feds and the hey, you
come numb to it, like it's gonna be my life.
But I had a feeling. I was like, man, I
just had to keep going, keep fighting. I can't lay down.
So I had to get Affidavid and proved to him
that I had people become a court on my behalf.
So I look at Affi David and submit that in
court and show him, like listen what I had. I
gave it to the lawyer. He never submitted it, you know,
(20:22):
I mean, he never investigated by alibi. So they sent
it back on her. Farsel Remaan on that in twenty twenty.
It was like an everdiction here. It proved to him
that I told my attorney about my alibi. So that's
what they send it back on. I got that open
right now waiting on that. And at the same time,
that's what I've heard about what Justin did with toront
Hill attorney.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And friend of the show, Justin Bonus one relief for
another innocent man out of Camden Tarren Hill, and from
his case he discovered a whole host of others that
involved Martin Devlin, single photo identifications and incentivized or coerced
false testimony.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Tomorrow told them about me. Another guy's in here, and
that's how we ran, In suggested, and Justin, I'm like, man,
he did God answer my prayer? Because I need help.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Justin Bonus, Lance's attorney hired a private investigator named Bill Trump,
who was able to track down both Carol Laughlin and
THEA Kim, who both admitted that the police essentially told
them what to say, and they repeated the police's instructions.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
THEA Kim said, I've never seen Lance in my life.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
This has happened in twenty twenty three, when Via Kim
recanned his statement and saying, Hi, he was cohersed by
all the investigators because he was a probation. The effective nay,
he said, if you didn't say what we want to say,
we want to Valley said, probation.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
I believe the police said something to the effect of, luck,
we can make this all go away if you say
that you know this guy, and so that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Charl Lughton basically said the same thing Kim said because
she didn't really want to talk. But she's basically said
to the investigator, she did what they told her to do.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
You know what I mean, we already know. Carol Laughlin
was unreliable as she was inconsistent over three interviews and
trial testimony. Her narrative conflicted with both the forensic evidence
as well as Lily and Davis, who was allegedly standing
right next to her during the crime. In addition, she
only decided to name Lance in exchange for leniency in
her own charges. In addition to THEA Kim and Carol Loughland,
(22:19):
the private investigator spoke with new witnesses Londa Lane and
Keith Pennington.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Investigator William Trump. He when got statement for me, I
wouldn't stand that he was here at the time to
try on happened, and he knew I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Unfortunately, Jacob Eller could not be located. But we know
that the prosecution was motivated to create a video on
the day before trial with Eller saying that he didn't
want to testify out of fear of reprisal, which came
in handy to make trial council back off and cross
examination and would have been useful if Eller chose to
recant on the witness stand. So, while this has all
(22:54):
been added to an amended petition, Lance sought clemency from
the governor.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Yeah, so we've actually had some pretty good news. His
sentence was commuted by Governor Murphy of New Jersey, which
we think is a huge deal. There were thousands of
clemency applications and he only granted a couple hundred. I
think he'll be eligible for parole beginning in twenty thirty.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
As part of his commutation, he's also being moved to
a lower security facility.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Obviously, this is not a total exoneration, which is what
we would desire for him, but given that the alternative
is a life in prison. We're really excited that the
end is in sight for him and his family.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
You know, when you sit across from Lance and Lance's
mom and Lance's brother, and at the documentary screening we
were sat in the road just in front of his niece,
and when you see how this wrongal incarceration is so
brutal on the family, that like, this is an experience
that will never leave me and that will always always
(23:56):
inform how I go about my business with integrity. Compare
right now, I'm a paralegal in a prosecutor's office and
I'm considering it. You know, longer term, the worst thing
that you can do as a prosecutor, hands down, is
what these people have done to Lance.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Julia, you know, how has your idea of the criminal
legal system changed from you know, doing this course in
Lance's case.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It's such a cliche, but it's cliche because it's true.
I really think it's just laid bare for me how
broken the criminal legal system is and how it's stacked
against poor people, black people, people who don't have resources.
And for me, I would say, I'm considering a path
in public defense, and I think, just like one of
(24:47):
The most important kind of moral imperatives I see is
the right to an effective assistance of counsel, and Lance
was not given that, and so many people are simply
not given that. This case really just elucidated for me
how much is broken in our system, and how really
what so many people need are just advocates and people
(25:08):
to not only tell their stories, but also people to
listen to their stories. I think that's something that's so
special about making an exonery. There's been a really high
success rate of people who have been able to walk
out of prison in the years following their participation in
this program. For every person who's been able to walk
out of prison, there are still plenty of program participants
who remain incarcerated to this day. But I think while
(25:31):
it's not a solution, but just having a room full
of one hundred people watch your documentary and hear your
story and have your story told in your words, on
your own terms, I think for a lot of the
participants in this program, that's just the really special experience
and a transformative one.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
What made you guys want to choose making an exonery
as something you were going to pursue.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I first learned about making an exonerate from a friend
who took the class at Georgetown a year or two
before and had just like rave reviews about it, and
she actually went on to work for the program in
the years after she graduated, and so when it finally
came to Princeton, she said to me, look, Nelson, you
have to do this. The two lawyers who are teaching
(26:15):
the class, who are Chelsea and Malkin and Yosha Gunnessikhara,
They're incredible. They are really kind people who are going
to like really ignite a passion in you for defense work,
which they did. I mean, they were amazing, and just
having the experience of working with a wrongfully convicted person,
(26:35):
their family, going to the prison, these are all experiences
that are incredibly transformative. You know, there's a lot of
people who you know in college are rightly really passionate about,
you know, criminal defense, but there's probably pretty few actually
who go to a prison to speak with incarcerated people there.
(26:59):
And so to be able to have really tangible experiences
like that is invaluable as we sort of take these
sort of first steps in our very nascent careers.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, I think for both of us we took this
course our senior spring, so it was one of the
final courses that we took during undergrad and I think
for me, I just was looking for something that could
make me feel like I was leaving college and going
out into the world and actually doing something important that
wasn't just reading and discussing in a classroom, but that
I could actually have an experience where I could help
(27:30):
someone and knows a lot of work. Both of us
were writing our THESS while we were also going to
Philly and Camden every weekend to see Lance and to
conduct interviews and visit the crime scene. And so it
was definitely quite the chaotic spring, but also so so
rewarding in the end.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
We definitely hope to see great things from both of
you in the future. We'll also link to the documentary
that you both made about this case in the episode description,
along with contact information for his attorney. Justin bonus well,
the commutation to an earlier parole eligibility is progress. Lance
should not be spending another minute in prison, let alone
another five or ten years. So we are begging if
(28:14):
anyone out there has information, please come forward.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I gotta be a blessing. I get more information
not like somebody came forth like a month ago. The
dude they're suposed to did the crime locked up for
becausessed him. They did the crime. The investigator will of
Trump talked to him also. He told the merry thing
like it was, I was locked up with this guy
ball in the fence and he told me everything that
he did about this crime. He got two innocent guys
locked up, and that was a blessed. I got that
(28:40):
statement open that you have one good minute remaining. So
it's a blessing. It's blessed that you guys are doing.
It is to bring more life to the situation that
I'm marry. You know, I mean exposed stuff that was
done in the dark. You know, I mean to my situation.
So I'm glad that you guys are bringing a delight
to the situation, you know what I mean. So I'm
thankful for working with you, you know what I mean,
(29:00):
and any anybody else to do the work out, bring
the truth out.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
I thank you, thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction
with Maggie Freeling. I'd like to thank our production team
Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers
Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wortis, and Jeff Clyburn. The
music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR
(29:25):
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across
all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at
Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on all platforms
at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a
production of Lava for Good podcast in association with the
Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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