May 28, 2026 • 37 mins
After a hot summer day - August 3rd, 1989, the DeLisle’s took their 4 children for ice cream along the Detroit River. A mechanical defect in their car caused the night to take a deadly turn that sent Larry DeLisle to prison for what should have been seen as a tragic accident.
Learn more and get involved at:
https://www.change.org/p/gretchen-whitmer-free-larry-he-lost-all-4-of-his-children-due-to-a-fatal-accident-is-falsely-in-prison
https://www.netflix.com/title/80161702
https://www.wrongfulconvictionpodcast.com/with-jason-flom
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello once again. This is Connor Hall, senior producer for
Rafel Conviction, where I'll be offering case updates, behind the
scenes info and insights from cases we've covered over the years,
and one case that comes to mind is Larry Delisle.
I've gotten a lot of emails from folks on the inside,
but Larry is probably the most prolific for two reasons.
(00:30):
He usually writes to me during holidays or major life events,
which gives him plenty of reasons to write. And two,
it's just been so many years since we started writing
each other. I mean, my son was just a few
months old when we met, and he's going on seven now,
and that's not too far off from Larry's oldest. Back
(00:52):
in nineteen eighty nine when all this happened, he and
his wife Sue lost all four of their children one
tragic summer evening when it appears that the accelerator and
their station wagon jammed and they sailed into the Detroit
River and only Larry and Sue survived. Larry was not
(01:16):
only accused of the murder of all four of his children,
but Sue's attempted murder as well, but she stuck by him.
I mean there's video of this conviction where I mean
she falls apart. You can see it on the confession
tapes on Netflix. And beyond that, even after she moved
on to start a new life and got married, I mean,
(01:38):
she remained committed to his innocence, which makes what happened
at his parole hearing in twenty twenty three so strange. See,
after the release of our initial coverage in twenty twenty one,
Jason advocated to whomever would listen, and the University of
Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up Larry's case prepared for his
(02:01):
parole hearing, And I remember talking to Jason right after
the hearing, and apparently it had been going really well.
I mean, they exposed the false confession, the evidence of
the car's accelerator issues that was presented, as well as
how the state's expert had corroborated that those issues existed
in his initial report, only to then contradict it on
(02:24):
the stand. But then, for some reason, after thirty four
years of knowing that this was all just a tragic accident,
a lawyer read a prepared statement allegedly from Sue, which
reversed over three decades of support for Larry's innocence. From
(02:45):
what I understand, her husband with no knowledge beyond what
was in the media at the time, which was nothing
short of an orgy of projection and violence, voyeurism with
a head full of that her new husband has believed
in Larry's guilt for all of these years, and who
knows may have been in her ear about it, or
(03:08):
may have been the catalyst for this alleged statement that
Sue didn't even bother to show up in person to deliver.
Either way, the accelerator issues in the station wagon corroborate
what Larry has been saying all along, but unfortunately her
statement was weighed more heavily over the course of a
(03:28):
year and a half after this twenty twenty three parole hearing,
when finally Larry's parol was denied. So maybe when you're
listening to his story, think about whether the physical evidence
should be believed over a change of heart and mind
coming three decades after the fact.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot
summer day, Larry and Sue Delisle took their four children
out for ice cream and to watch the boats pass
by on the Detroit When Larry pulled out on the
street that dead ended at the river. The mechanical defect
in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The
car sped off uncontrollably, and Larry and Sue's panicked efforts
(04:12):
could not save them from launching into the Detroit River.
Larry and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa,
Kate and Emily tragically did not. When the water log
wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck again
during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others about
that very make and model station wagon. It was a
(04:35):
tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police,
the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen
hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly agreed
to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster
as a confession for a court of law, but it
was quickly submitted to the court of public opinion when
(04:57):
the police chief went on TV and said Larry Delile
had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry was
convicted of four counts of murder and one count of
attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his actual innocence.
This tragic accident stole their four children, and the state
(05:19):
compounded that loss by stealing what has become over three
long decades of Larry's life. This is Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
(05:44):
That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today my
heart is heavy because of the story you're about to
hear and the man you're about to read. I'm proud
to call him a friend, and I'm proud to be
part of the team that's helping to try to bring
justice long delayed to this awful case. So, without further ado,
(06:07):
Larry Delisle, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you have
to be here, but I'm glad you're here, humble.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And honored to be here with you today.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where
exactly are you, Larry.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland Correctional facility.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone.
You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include
obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution
that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really
(06:50):
should have known better. And of course, your wrongful incarceration
now for over three decades is another thing that nobody
could even begin to imagine. But I want to go
back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years old.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A
separate tragedy, right. I mean, I don't know how much
one person is supposed to take in their life, and
I don't even know if you want to talk about that,
but it does come into focus with this case. As
this goes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
On, you're talking about my father committing suicide.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, of course I got a.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight
that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere
by the river and put a gun to his.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Head, ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being
the central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle.
I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife,
she wanted to give us something because my sister and
I find a way our rights to his house, because
we didn't want her to have to remortgage or have
to move. So she gave me the car the option
(08:08):
of keeping it or selling it. At the time, we
had a brand new nineteen eighty seven ford Errow started.
We had just bought to go to Disneyland November of
eighty seven, when my father had committed suicide, we were
talking about getting rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper
vehicle so we can knock our bills down to a
point where we can afford to buy a house. Well,
(08:31):
when my father committed suicide, the place that I worked
for tiremen, God bless him, they had taken the vehicle.
They had it completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when
I went there that night to drive the vehicle, I
had mixed emotions. When I got in, I started crying
right away, but after a few minutes I felt calm
(08:52):
because my father had taken me everywhere with him when
I was younger and older in the station wagon. He
loved station I think that was the second or third one.
So when I drove the vehicle, I felt a peace.
Now it was up to my wife. She drove it.
She loved it because it had a lot of power.
It just happened to have an intrinsic value as far
(09:15):
as helping us to achieve our goals, which would have
been to get a house for our children, to get
a house for us.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in your
a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as
someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising
four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task.
And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series
of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and encourage
(09:44):
everyone to watch that episode. But let's go back to
the night of this awful accident, and we're talking about
the evening of August third, nineteen eighty nine, a ninety
degree hot summer day and the hottest part of the summer.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
This was a very, very hot day, and it was
a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours
that day, running around on my feet. I got out
of there as quickly as I could, got the kids
in the car, and away we went.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Larry and his wife and the children Brian, Melissa, Kadie
and Emily had gone for ice cream and were watching
the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the
kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my
muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems
most of my youth with cramping in my legs.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
It actually happened to me in the gym this morning
when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing,
especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day,
which was what the situation was with you. But there
are a number of things that played into this unspeakable disaster.
And what really happened was as you were leaving to
go home, you were on Eureka Road, which dead ends
(10:58):
at the river. You stepped on the gap, your leg
cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. You
reached down to pull your foot off the gas, but
the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know it
at the time, but there was a deep beact that
caused your accelerator jam, propelling the car with the six
(11:19):
of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade at
the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River.
I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times
in your head.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Now I try not to. It's still painful today. When
the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know
what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas.
My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot
was off. She saw that my foot was off, but
the car did not slow down. Before I could even
(11:54):
do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to
help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled
me for a second and I froze, and before I
could decide what I was going to do, we ran
out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds,
(12:14):
according to officials, seven to ten seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
We're talking about a section of the street that was
three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked
about the fact that the car had a powerful engine
and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover us,
basically just a little bit further than a football field.
So add to I mean, all the other elements of
pure panic and terror. The fact that the kids are
in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing the wheel,
(12:40):
et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And
on top of that, you didn't know how to swim right.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to my
high school coach. But that's about it. But in the
impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my head
hit around the vizor. There was a bright light, a
shot of pain from my neck all the way down
(13:06):
my spine. So I was disoriented once I was in
the water. I don't even know how I got out of.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
The car well, I mean, you know, it's impossible to
probably imagine. And the fact is that this particular vehicle
had known issues. There were over one hundred people who
had reported the accelerator jamming on this exact make and
(13:32):
model station Wagon.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
It was a seventy seven Ford LPD station Wagon four
six PQB against four barrel carburetor.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Koquell,
and he had identified three separate defects, any one of
which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was a
kink in the accelerator cable that caused the cable to stick. Secondly,
the throttle plates could be heard scraping inside the carburetor.
And thirdly, the engine mount was broken in this vehicle,
(14:03):
which caused the tilt of the engine, and the tilting
pulled at the accelerator cable. So the combination of these
factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, they chose
to ignore their own test because when they tested the
vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, in
one of the times when they test drove it, the
(14:23):
accelerator did in fact jam.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator
had stuck, you had two mechanics there, one for the
state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't
even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE
certified master mechanic for us, who is the one who
found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start
it for them before they could even test it, and
(14:48):
an engineer. They were all there to day that the
test happened when the accelerator stuck. He was sitting next
to the State trooper Sergeant during their tests, and they're
testing it with his on the accelerator, testing the brakes
to see how long it would take to stop the vehicle.
And I imagine it would be quite a long ways
with only manual brakes work. And you don't have the
(15:10):
power assist, because when you're accelerating, you don't have power assist.
Your power breaks don't work. You have to stand on
them to get it to stop. In the state trooper sergeant,
and he had to do that so hard they broke
the seat. Any case, the arresting officer, he's taking notes.
He wrote across the top of his notepad in bold letters,
(15:33):
accelerator sticking, then swore under oath when he was up
on the witness stand. He had no idea why. He
wrote that there was nothing wrong with the car when
the accelerator stuck. The bus mechanic, the master mechanic, and
an engineer, they came running over to the vehicle, according
to my lawyer, and the state trooper waved them away.
He said, no, no, the problems inside the car. You
(15:54):
have engineers and mechanics there to confind it. Get out
of the car. Let him find out what's sticking right now,
And he refused to do it because the arresting officer
probably didn't want them to find it, because if they
found a problem, it would approve what I've been saying
from the very beginning and what my wife had been
saying from the very beginning. The accelerator stuck because it
(16:15):
did for you. He shut it off. He testified that
he shut it off because it startled him. He's six
four to three hundred pounds and it startled him.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Did you expect it to remain come.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was
going to start the vehicle back up and put it
in gear and see how fast it would go. At
that point, all you had to do was put it
in gear. When he shut it off, it voided the test,
and they never got a chance to test it again
because by the time they gave it over to the defense,
the engine had been so roughly treated during their acceleration
(16:48):
test that the engine blew up end of testing, end
of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a
problem with that station wagon.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
In a tragedy like this, community members have a very
difficult time reconciling the fact that these type of tragic
accidents happen when a child is lost, it's easier psychologically
for people to assign blame to someone because the randomness
of it is too terrifying, especially for people with children
(17:34):
to imagine. And in this case, I think that as
well as other sort of confirmation biases took hold. You
were targeted by the media. They hounded you and basically
set up camp outside the house of grieving parents until
you agreed to give an interview, and then it becomes
And we've seen this in so many cases, whether it's
(17:55):
Amanda Knox or so many others, where the media or
the authority feel you're either too sad or not sad enough,
or too hysterical or too calm.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I don't think that people are aware of the fact
that that first interview I did in the backyard, that
I had had a couple of valumes given to me
by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview.
All I remember was an airplane going over the top.
So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just
(18:25):
makes me angry that they're going to point to the
fact that I'm not classical as far as how I
was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded
by the press. I'm sorry, it's just dirty upsetting.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, let's move on from there. This is a false
confession case that has all of the hallmarks that we
see again and again, just to paint a picture for everyone.
A week after this unimaginable loss, the police picked you
and Sue your wife up at seven am and interrogated
you till one in the morning. So that's eighteen hours.
(19:09):
And we know that when this process goes on interminably,
eventually everybody has a breaking point. And even though you
told him again and again I didn't do this, et cetera,
et cetera, they just wouldn't listen.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Is that right to continue to tell me that I
wasn't telling him everything he wanted to hear, and I
didn't understand what he meant at that point because I
was answering all of his questions.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting
you to recite over and over again exactly what happened
when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you
could not have known that this car was defective, or
you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
He was asking, what could have happened. Why the accelerator
had stuck and I didn't know. I had my shoes off,
but the shoe gets stuck in there was the accelerator sticking.
Why isn't it slowing down? Would you take your foot off?
The guests it's supposed to slow down. Period.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Let's face it. There was no explanation that you could
have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is
a very high profile case. The media is all over it,
and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that
you must have done this. So then it gets to
the point where they give you a polygraph, and polygraphs
are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of
(20:28):
getting people to falsely confess.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I'm doctor Michael Abramski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist.
At the time of the wild case, I was studying
false confessions and I was retained by the court to
examine the confession. So I was provided with the videotape
of the entire interrogation. It's the first half an hour
to forty five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer kills himself
(20:55):
up as an expert and infallible and he also did
the same thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph
could read minds, it was infallible, it's never wrong. It
gives Delial the tests, which only consists of a few questions.
And he leaves the room and he comes back with
his head shaking and says to Delile you know you
(21:17):
fail the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make
the defendant feel that their situation is totally helpless. So basically,
you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible,
you think you're telling the truth. It puts you into
a state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an
explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmeteer spends
(21:42):
hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions. It's
telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh,
you're tired and families are burden, and I know how
hard your life is. So he is empathic with him,
tells him he understand, implies that you know you're not
(22:02):
a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress.
They do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically,
what he's trying to do is get Larry to make
incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know
you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Some of the things that this man was saying we're
actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me
that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd
drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on
the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me
if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked
about he gets so mad at his kids, he'd want
(22:42):
to stick him in a garbage bag and throw him
in a clown And he said, you ever want to
do that? And I got angry at him for even
suggesting something that heinous to be done to any child.
I never said I wanted to do that, But then
later on in his interrogation somehow he had me parroting him.
They were not confessions. They were brought about by this
(23:03):
man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that I
was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself
and he doesn't and Finally, he tries out a scenario
that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do
you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He
tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things
that we don't really know that we've done them. You know,
(23:37):
even though you did it, you're not really responsible because
you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry
an explanation. And so at some point he makes an
equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened,
or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that
he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that
(23:57):
maybe that did happen, And then the interrogation is over
because what he's done is accepted Palmitteer's theory that he
did drive the car into the river and that he
did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at
the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't
make any difference.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed
that Larry Delal has confessed. At that point, they almost
didn't need a trial. To his credit, the judge did
actually suppress the confession and people are probably hearing that
saying oh good. But the fact is it didn't matter
at that point because they refused to change venue.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
So it's very important to understand the psychological atmosphere was occurring. First,
the news stations had a stock shot of the car
being lifted out of the river by a crane, and
everybody knew there were four dead children in there, and
night after night that was playing. People then started gathering
down by the river demanding justice for these four kids.
(25:00):
After he was questioned, they announced that he had confessed
to the crime, which of course he had not, but
you put that in the crowd's mind, it's almost impossible
to reverse. The next thing that happened was, of course,
of suppression hearing, and that's where I testified that the
confession was involuntary. I described the techniques that were used
(25:22):
and why what he said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo
ruled in Delile's favor and he threw out the confession.
Except the problem was that it had already been in
the newspaper, and the retractions from the newspaper said things
like Lawrence Delile's statements that he intentionally killed his family
cannot be used in court. Against them, And when you
(25:44):
try to tell people that it's invalid, they believe, oh no,
the guy just just realized that he got himself into trouble.
He's just denying it now. So they never believe the
confession is false. They believe the denial of the confession
is false.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I mean, I don't know if they had caves and
wy dot that you could have found someone who didn't
on the TV or read the newspaper. But short of that,
you're looking at yours. We were unaware of the tactics
that were used to elicit that confession, and who can't
reconcile the idea that anyone would confessed to crime they
didn't commit. But it happens all the damn time. And
they charged you with four counts of murder one kind
(26:20):
of attempted murder. Prosecutor was a guy named Kevin Simowski.
He painted you as a guy who was overwhelmed by debt.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
The fact of the matter is I was not overwhelmed
with debt. I owned less than thirteen to five and
made over thirty thousand dollars a year. I just got
a house, so they didn't have to make any payments
on for an entire year, and I take great offense
every time they keep trying to bring up, oh, he
was deeply in debt. As a matter of fact, the
headlines wanted to point out, oh, he was trying to
(26:47):
get rid of his burdens. Well, the police were trying
to say, my debt was my burdens, but the people
looked at it as my children were my burdens. That's
how they were trying to convict me.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And here's a very very important thing to me. Your wife, Sue.
Now she's gone through the same horrendous boss that you have,
and I think it's fair to say that maybe when
in her position, if they had even a sneaking suspicion
that you might have done it on purpose, she would
(27:19):
have been the number one witness for the prosecution. She,
in fact, was the only witness to the crime, except
for some woman that was out in her balcony on
the eleventh floor across the street. Let's not even go there.
But she didn't turn on you.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
She was there, She knows exactly what happened. She saw
my foot off there, she tried to help. She was
actually demonized by the public for years. She had to
move away from down river because they were harassing her.
Somebody tried to break into the house. Somebody would call
on the phone leaving threatening messages. She couldn't get a
(27:55):
job anywhere because of her last name.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Well because she wouldn't turn on you, even though she
was doing the right thing. So the jury deliberated for
nine hours over two days.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
They came back originally ten to two. The judge sent
them back. They came back the next day eleven to one.
He threatened to keep them through the weekend if they
didn't come back with a decision.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
We know that in those jury rooms extreme pressure is
exerted by people who want to go home. But you
can send a note to the judge. You're allowed to
do that and just say, your honor, I'm not budging,
I'm done here. I'd say ninety nine percent of people
serve on juries don't even know you could do that.
You just send a note to the judge and say
I'm done, I'm not voted to convict, and then the
(28:41):
judge has the decision to make the idea that so
many people like you, Larry, are spending the rest of
their lives in prison because somebody needed to get home
and back to their job. This is not a unique thing,
and it's something that needs to be addressed. When they
filed back in, what were your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I could tell when they came in. Some of them
were smiling, but some of them had their arms crossed,
and I stood up. And when they said guilty, I
couldn't stand anymore. I had to sit down or I
would just pass out. I was so much shock. If
this were a boxing match, we won every single day.
(29:19):
The prosecutor helped prove our case, even when the accelerator
stuck and the police officer waved the mechanics away, saying, oh, no,
the problems in the car, Yeah, the problem was sitting
next to you taking notes. He wrote specifically across the
top of his notepad, accelerator sticking, then swore under oath,
I have no idea why I wrote that there was
(29:41):
nothing wrong with the car. Bullshit. You knew that the
mechanics an engineer that was there would have found the problem.
It would have proved that I was innocent.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
The big mistake to me that among all the other mistakes,
was judge not allowing a change of venue, because you know,
maybe you could have gotten a fair trial for.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
What was disheartening too, is that there was a problem
with that vehicle. That Ford did recall that engine, but
only on the pickup trucks, not on our station wagon
for that year. My lawyer tried to enter it into
trial at the time, and to judge said that because
it was not the pickup truck recalled, he wouldn't allow
him to enter in evidence until the trial was over with,
(30:21):
so the jury never got to hear it.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So you've been in prison of for thirty years. I
know you recently survived COVID on top of everything else,
But can you explained that the prison experience.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh that wasn't there for my wife at the funeral
for our children. My grandparents who raised me passed away
while I was in here. These are just the emotional
ones there. This has nothing to do with the pain
that I went through dealing with all these people in
the beginning. I could tell you that the first ten
(31:08):
years were horrible. Matter of fact, the first five I
have had more death threats, evil stairs, things thrown at
me every day NonStop for five years. I'm surprised I
even survived it. And then the next five years, instead
of being daily, it would be once or twice a week,
(31:28):
and then eventually once or twice a month, and then
finally down to once or twice a year. Now I
can go several years before I hear a discouraging word
from somebody. But I have over the last two decades
made a lot of good friends in here. You are
the company you keep, so I try to keep company
with people I would have as my friends and neighbors
(31:50):
out in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Can you describe a ray of light that you can identify.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
The best thing that's ever happened to me was getting
on maintenance twenty two two years ago. I've had the
opportunity to learn so much about things that I never
knew before, so much about repairing buildings, clients, repair heating,
air conditioning, electrical I spent one hundreds of dollars on
books and thousands of hours studying to get as good
as I am. Now. I'm very good at what I
(32:18):
do today.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You've had appeals over the years, but it hasn't resulted
in any relief. Can you explain why that process is
dragged on for so long?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Well, my lawyer, Frank Eman, did an excellent job throughout
the entire process. I owe him everything. The system itself
is very slow. The courts don't care if you're innocent
or not. They just care did to get a fair trial.
I didn't get a fair trial, and I went through
the federal courts where they split politically eight to seven.
(32:51):
I don't remember if his Democrats Republicans Republicans Democrats. You're
supposed to be impartial. You're supposed to vote your conscious
what you see. You're like a referee in a football game.
You're supposed to judge everything by what you have before you.
Every one of the judges said that they are disappointed
in the state of Michigan for allowing suppressed evidence to
(33:13):
be released to the media before trial. You would think
that we get you to the United States Supreme Court,
but it didn't. I guess some clerk putting in there
in my case doesn't warrant you going before the highest
court in the land. My life, my constitutional rights violated,
and that doesn't go before the highest court in the land.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
There's still one remedy left for clemency from Governor Whitmer.
You've recently submitted your clemency petition. You know, clemency is
to me something that I've been telling anyone who would listen,
including people in power, that this is an underused power
that is given very deliberately to governors and presidents because
(33:58):
they are to serve as the last sort of stop
gap to prevent injustices from being allowed to stand. And
your case cries out for it, as I think anyone
who's just listened to this podcast agrees. So is there
anything people can do to help generate momentum for your
(34:19):
clemency petition?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
You could write the pro board, try to contact the governor.
I've got thousands of signatures on this petition begging her
to hear my case to show clemency. Visit the petition website,
sign the petition. She can hear that people are concerned,
she may do something.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We're going to put a link to the petition in
the show notes. Please use your voice. Let's help bring
Larry home together. This nightmare has gone on for far
too long. Larry. We have a section of the show
that is my favorite part each episode. First of all,
I thank you for being here and for your courage
(35:01):
and for sharing your story. So thank you, Larry Delile.
You know our thoughts are with you, and we're going
to build momentum for you. With this podcast. This actually
the show is called Closing Arguments, and this is where
I turned my microphone off. I'm going to kick back,
close my eyes and just listen to your words.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
First off, I would like to say that I am
so proud of so many activists out there who are
protesting both social and racial injustice, the protesting against wrongful convictions.
You have to salute our heroes on the front line
in healthcare who are taking everyone who has COVID nineteen,
(35:43):
all these tragic deaths that are happening in everyone's family.
My heart goes out to you. I would like to
thank Ashley Ross and Carla Beck for everything they've done
to get to this point. They have been very stunched.
They started a petition, they supported a petition, and I
(36:05):
love them to death. There are so many people that
have written me since the Netflix documentary came out. Bless
you all. Thank you very much. Please please stay safe
out there.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(36:43):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Number One and worked hard to ensure that all facts
reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions
expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their
own and do not necessarily reflect those of Love of
Her Good
Hello once again. This is Connor Hall, senior producer for
Rafel Conviction, where I'll be offering case updates, behind the
scenes info and insights from cases we've covered over the years,
and one case that comes to mind is Larry Delisle.
I've gotten a lot of emails from folks on the inside,
but Larry is probably the most prolific for two reasons.
(00:30):
He usually writes to me during holidays or major life events,
which gives him plenty of reasons to write. And two,
it's just been so many years since we started writing
each other. I mean, my son was just a few
months old when we met, and he's going on seven now,
and that's not too far off from Larry's oldest. Back
(00:52):
in nineteen eighty nine when all this happened, he and
his wife Sue lost all four of their children one
tragic summer evening when it appears that the accelerator and
their station wagon jammed and they sailed into the Detroit
River and only Larry and Sue survived. Larry was not
(01:16):
only accused of the murder of all four of his children,
but Sue's attempted murder as well, but she stuck by him.
I mean there's video of this conviction where I mean
she falls apart. You can see it on the confession
tapes on Netflix. And beyond that, even after she moved
on to start a new life and got married, I mean,
(01:38):
she remained committed to his innocence, which makes what happened
at his parole hearing in twenty twenty three so strange. See,
after the release of our initial coverage in twenty twenty one,
Jason advocated to whomever would listen, and the University of
Michigan Innocence Clinic picked up Larry's case prepared for his
(02:01):
parole hearing, And I remember talking to Jason right after
the hearing, and apparently it had been going really well.
I mean, they exposed the false confession, the evidence of
the car's accelerator issues that was presented, as well as
how the state's expert had corroborated that those issues existed
in his initial report, only to then contradict it on
(02:24):
the stand. But then, for some reason, after thirty four
years of knowing that this was all just a tragic accident,
a lawyer read a prepared statement allegedly from Sue, which
reversed over three decades of support for Larry's innocence. From
(02:45):
what I understand, her husband with no knowledge beyond what
was in the media at the time, which was nothing
short of an orgy of projection and violence, voyeurism with
a head full of that her new husband has believed
in Larry's guilt for all of these years, and who
knows may have been in her ear about it, or
(03:08):
may have been the catalyst for this alleged statement that
Sue didn't even bother to show up in person to deliver.
Either way, the accelerator issues in the station wagon corroborate
what Larry has been saying all along, but unfortunately her
statement was weighed more heavily over the course of a
(03:28):
year and a half after this twenty twenty three parole hearing,
when finally Larry's parol was denied. So maybe when you're
listening to his story, think about whether the physical evidence
should be believed over a change of heart and mind
coming three decades after the fact.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot
summer day, Larry and Sue Delisle took their four children
out for ice cream and to watch the boats pass
by on the Detroit When Larry pulled out on the
street that dead ended at the river. The mechanical defect
in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The
car sped off uncontrollably, and Larry and Sue's panicked efforts
(04:12):
could not save them from launching into the Detroit River.
Larry and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa,
Kate and Emily tragically did not. When the water log
wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck again
during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others about
that very make and model station wagon. It was a
(04:35):
tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police,
the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen
hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly agreed
to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster
as a confession for a court of law, but it
was quickly submitted to the court of public opinion when
(04:57):
the police chief went on TV and said Larry Delile
had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry was
convicted of four counts of murder and one count of
attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his actual innocence.
This tragic accident stole their four children, and the state
(05:19):
compounded that loss by stealing what has become over three
long decades of Larry's life. This is Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
(05:44):
That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today my
heart is heavy because of the story you're about to
hear and the man you're about to read. I'm proud
to call him a friend, and I'm proud to be
part of the team that's helping to try to bring
justice long delayed to this awful case. So, without further ado,
(06:07):
Larry Delisle, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you have
to be here, but I'm glad you're here, humble.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
And honored to be here with you today.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where
exactly are you, Larry.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland Correctional facility.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone.
You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include
obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution
that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really
(06:50):
should have known better. And of course, your wrongful incarceration
now for over three decades is another thing that nobody
could even begin to imagine. But I want to go
back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years old.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A
separate tragedy, right. I mean, I don't know how much
one person is supposed to take in their life, and
I don't even know if you want to talk about that,
but it does come into focus with this case. As
this goes.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
On, you're talking about my father committing suicide.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, of course I got a.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight
that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere
by the river and put a gun to his.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Head, ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being
the central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle.
I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife,
she wanted to give us something because my sister and
I find a way our rights to his house, because
we didn't want her to have to remortgage or have
to move. So she gave me the car the option
(08:08):
of keeping it or selling it. At the time, we
had a brand new nineteen eighty seven ford Errow started.
We had just bought to go to Disneyland November of
eighty seven, when my father had committed suicide, we were
talking about getting rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper
vehicle so we can knock our bills down to a
point where we can afford to buy a house. Well,
(08:31):
when my father committed suicide, the place that I worked
for tiremen, God bless him, they had taken the vehicle.
They had it completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when
I went there that night to drive the vehicle, I
had mixed emotions. When I got in, I started crying
right away, but after a few minutes I felt calm
(08:52):
because my father had taken me everywhere with him when
I was younger and older in the station wagon. He
loved station I think that was the second or third one.
So when I drove the vehicle, I felt a peace.
Now it was up to my wife. She drove it.
She loved it because it had a lot of power.
It just happened to have an intrinsic value as far
(09:15):
as helping us to achieve our goals, which would have
been to get a house for our children, to get
a house for us.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in your
a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as
someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising
four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task.
And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series
of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and encourage
(09:44):
everyone to watch that episode. But let's go back to
the night of this awful accident, and we're talking about
the evening of August third, nineteen eighty nine, a ninety
degree hot summer day and the hottest part of the summer.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
This was a very, very hot day, and it was
a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours
that day, running around on my feet. I got out
of there as quickly as I could, got the kids
in the car, and away we went.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Larry and his wife and the children Brian, Melissa, Kadie
and Emily had gone for ice cream and were watching
the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the
kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my
muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems
most of my youth with cramping in my legs.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
It actually happened to me in the gym this morning
when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing,
especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day,
which was what the situation was with you. But there
are a number of things that played into this unspeakable disaster.
And what really happened was as you were leaving to
go home, you were on Eureka Road, which dead ends
(10:58):
at the river. You stepped on the gap, your leg
cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. You
reached down to pull your foot off the gas, but
the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know it
at the time, but there was a deep beact that
caused your accelerator jam, propelling the car with the six
(11:19):
of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade at
the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River.
I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times
in your head.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Now I try not to. It's still painful today. When
the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know
what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas.
My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot
was off. She saw that my foot was off, but
the car did not slow down. Before I could even
(11:54):
do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to
help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled
me for a second and I froze, and before I
could decide what I was going to do, we ran
out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds,
(12:14):
according to officials, seven to ten seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
We're talking about a section of the street that was
three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked
about the fact that the car had a powerful engine
and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover us,
basically just a little bit further than a football field.
So add to I mean, all the other elements of
pure panic and terror. The fact that the kids are
in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing the wheel,
(12:40):
et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And
on top of that, you didn't know how to swim right.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to my
high school coach. But that's about it. But in the
impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my head
hit around the vizor. There was a bright light, a
shot of pain from my neck all the way down
(13:06):
my spine. So I was disoriented once I was in
the water. I don't even know how I got out of.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
The car well, I mean, you know, it's impossible to
probably imagine. And the fact is that this particular vehicle
had known issues. There were over one hundred people who
had reported the accelerator jamming on this exact make and
(13:32):
model station Wagon.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
It was a seventy seven Ford LPD station Wagon four
six PQB against four barrel carburetor.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Koquell,
and he had identified three separate defects, any one of
which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was a
kink in the accelerator cable that caused the cable to stick. Secondly,
the throttle plates could be heard scraping inside the carburetor.
And thirdly, the engine mount was broken in this vehicle,
(14:03):
which caused the tilt of the engine, and the tilting
pulled at the accelerator cable. So the combination of these
factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, they chose
to ignore their own test because when they tested the
vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, in
one of the times when they test drove it, the
(14:23):
accelerator did in fact jam.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator
had stuck, you had two mechanics there, one for the
state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't
even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE
certified master mechanic for us, who is the one who
found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start
it for them before they could even test it, and
(14:48):
an engineer. They were all there to day that the
test happened when the accelerator stuck. He was sitting next
to the State trooper Sergeant during their tests, and they're
testing it with his on the accelerator, testing the brakes
to see how long it would take to stop the vehicle.
And I imagine it would be quite a long ways
with only manual brakes work. And you don't have the
(15:10):
power assist, because when you're accelerating, you don't have power assist.
Your power breaks don't work. You have to stand on
them to get it to stop. In the state trooper sergeant,
and he had to do that so hard they broke
the seat. Any case, the arresting officer, he's taking notes.
He wrote across the top of his notepad in bold letters,
(15:33):
accelerator sticking, then swore under oath when he was up
on the witness stand. He had no idea why. He
wrote that there was nothing wrong with the car when
the accelerator stuck. The bus mechanic, the master mechanic, and
an engineer, they came running over to the vehicle, according
to my lawyer, and the state trooper waved them away.
He said, no, no, the problems inside the car. You
(15:54):
have engineers and mechanics there to confind it. Get out
of the car. Let him find out what's sticking right now,
And he refused to do it because the arresting officer
probably didn't want them to find it, because if they
found a problem, it would approve what I've been saying
from the very beginning and what my wife had been
saying from the very beginning. The accelerator stuck because it
(16:15):
did for you. He shut it off. He testified that
he shut it off because it startled him. He's six
four to three hundred pounds and it startled him.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Did you expect it to remain come.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was
going to start the vehicle back up and put it
in gear and see how fast it would go. At
that point, all you had to do was put it
in gear. When he shut it off, it voided the test,
and they never got a chance to test it again
because by the time they gave it over to the defense,
the engine had been so roughly treated during their acceleration
(16:48):
test that the engine blew up end of testing, end
of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a
problem with that station wagon.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
In a tragedy like this, community members have a very
difficult time reconciling the fact that these type of tragic
accidents happen when a child is lost, it's easier psychologically
for people to assign blame to someone because the randomness
of it is too terrifying, especially for people with children
(17:34):
to imagine. And in this case, I think that as
well as other sort of confirmation biases took hold. You
were targeted by the media. They hounded you and basically
set up camp outside the house of grieving parents until
you agreed to give an interview, and then it becomes
And we've seen this in so many cases, whether it's
(17:55):
Amanda Knox or so many others, where the media or
the authority feel you're either too sad or not sad enough,
or too hysterical or too calm.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
I don't think that people are aware of the fact
that that first interview I did in the backyard, that
I had had a couple of valumes given to me
by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview.
All I remember was an airplane going over the top.
So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just
(18:25):
makes me angry that they're going to point to the
fact that I'm not classical as far as how I
was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded
by the press. I'm sorry, it's just dirty upsetting.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, let's move on from there. This is a false
confession case that has all of the hallmarks that we
see again and again, just to paint a picture for everyone.
A week after this unimaginable loss, the police picked you
and Sue your wife up at seven am and interrogated
you till one in the morning. So that's eighteen hours.
(19:09):
And we know that when this process goes on interminably,
eventually everybody has a breaking point. And even though you
told him again and again I didn't do this, et cetera,
et cetera, they just wouldn't listen.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Is that right to continue to tell me that I
wasn't telling him everything he wanted to hear, and I
didn't understand what he meant at that point because I
was answering all of his questions.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting
you to recite over and over again exactly what happened
when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you
could not have known that this car was defective, or
you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
He was asking, what could have happened. Why the accelerator
had stuck and I didn't know. I had my shoes off,
but the shoe gets stuck in there was the accelerator sticking.
Why isn't it slowing down? Would you take your foot off?
The guests it's supposed to slow down. Period.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Let's face it. There was no explanation that you could
have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is
a very high profile case. The media is all over it,
and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that
you must have done this. So then it gets to
the point where they give you a polygraph, and polygraphs
are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of
(20:28):
getting people to falsely confess.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
I'm doctor Michael Abramski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist.
At the time of the wild case, I was studying
false confessions and I was retained by the court to
examine the confession. So I was provided with the videotape
of the entire interrogation. It's the first half an hour
to forty five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer kills himself
(20:55):
up as an expert and infallible and he also did
the same thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph
could read minds, it was infallible, it's never wrong. It
gives Delial the tests, which only consists of a few questions.
And he leaves the room and he comes back with
his head shaking and says to Delile you know you
(21:17):
fail the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make
the defendant feel that their situation is totally helpless. So basically,
you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible,
you think you're telling the truth. It puts you into
a state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an
explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmeteer spends
(21:42):
hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions. It's
telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh,
you're tired and families are burden, and I know how
hard your life is. So he is empathic with him,
tells him he understand, implies that you know you're not
(22:02):
a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress.
They do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically,
what he's trying to do is get Larry to make
incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know
you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Some of the things that this man was saying we're
actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me
that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd
drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on
the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me
if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked
about he gets so mad at his kids, he'd want
(22:42):
to stick him in a garbage bag and throw him
in a clown And he said, you ever want to
do that? And I got angry at him for even
suggesting something that heinous to be done to any child.
I never said I wanted to do that, But then
later on in his interrogation somehow he had me parroting him.
They were not confessions. They were brought about by this
(23:03):
man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that I
was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself
and he doesn't and Finally, he tries out a scenario
that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do
you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He
tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things
that we don't really know that we've done them. You know,
(23:37):
even though you did it, you're not really responsible because
you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry
an explanation. And so at some point he makes an
equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened,
or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that
he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that
(23:57):
maybe that did happen, And then the interrogation is over
because what he's done is accepted Palmitteer's theory that he
did drive the car into the river and that he
did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at
the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't
make any difference.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed
that Larry Delal has confessed. At that point, they almost
didn't need a trial. To his credit, the judge did
actually suppress the confession and people are probably hearing that
saying oh good. But the fact is it didn't matter
at that point because they refused to change venue.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
So it's very important to understand the psychological atmosphere was occurring. First,
the news stations had a stock shot of the car
being lifted out of the river by a crane, and
everybody knew there were four dead children in there, and
night after night that was playing. People then started gathering
down by the river demanding justice for these four kids.
(25:00):
After he was questioned, they announced that he had confessed
to the crime, which of course he had not, but
you put that in the crowd's mind, it's almost impossible
to reverse. The next thing that happened was, of course,
of suppression hearing, and that's where I testified that the
confession was involuntary. I described the techniques that were used
(25:22):
and why what he said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo
ruled in Delile's favor and he threw out the confession.
Except the problem was that it had already been in
the newspaper, and the retractions from the newspaper said things
like Lawrence Delile's statements that he intentionally killed his family
cannot be used in court. Against them, And when you
(25:44):
try to tell people that it's invalid, they believe, oh no,
the guy just just realized that he got himself into trouble.
He's just denying it now. So they never believe the
confession is false. They believe the denial of the confession
is false.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I mean, I don't know if they had caves and
wy dot that you could have found someone who didn't
on the TV or read the newspaper. But short of that,
you're looking at yours. We were unaware of the tactics
that were used to elicit that confession, and who can't
reconcile the idea that anyone would confessed to crime they
didn't commit. But it happens all the damn time. And
they charged you with four counts of murder one kind
(26:20):
of attempted murder. Prosecutor was a guy named Kevin Simowski.
He painted you as a guy who was overwhelmed by debt.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
The fact of the matter is I was not overwhelmed
with debt. I owned less than thirteen to five and
made over thirty thousand dollars a year. I just got
a house, so they didn't have to make any payments
on for an entire year, and I take great offense
every time they keep trying to bring up, oh, he
was deeply in debt. As a matter of fact, the
headlines wanted to point out, oh, he was trying to
(26:47):
get rid of his burdens. Well, the police were trying
to say, my debt was my burdens, but the people
looked at it as my children were my burdens. That's
how they were trying to convict me.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And here's a very very important thing to me. Your wife, Sue.
Now she's gone through the same horrendous boss that you have,
and I think it's fair to say that maybe when
in her position, if they had even a sneaking suspicion
that you might have done it on purpose, she would
(27:19):
have been the number one witness for the prosecution. She,
in fact, was the only witness to the crime, except
for some woman that was out in her balcony on
the eleventh floor across the street. Let's not even go there.
But she didn't turn on you.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
She was there, She knows exactly what happened. She saw
my foot off there, she tried to help. She was
actually demonized by the public for years. She had to
move away from down river because they were harassing her.
Somebody tried to break into the house. Somebody would call
on the phone leaving threatening messages. She couldn't get a
(27:55):
job anywhere because of her last name.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Well because she wouldn't turn on you, even though she
was doing the right thing. So the jury deliberated for
nine hours over two days.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
They came back originally ten to two. The judge sent
them back. They came back the next day eleven to one.
He threatened to keep them through the weekend if they
didn't come back with a decision.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
We know that in those jury rooms extreme pressure is
exerted by people who want to go home. But you
can send a note to the judge. You're allowed to
do that and just say, your honor, I'm not budging,
I'm done here. I'd say ninety nine percent of people
serve on juries don't even know you could do that.
You just send a note to the judge and say
I'm done, I'm not voted to convict, and then the
(28:41):
judge has the decision to make the idea that so
many people like you, Larry, are spending the rest of
their lives in prison because somebody needed to get home
and back to their job. This is not a unique thing,
and it's something that needs to be addressed. When they
filed back in, what were your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I could tell when they came in. Some of them
were smiling, but some of them had their arms crossed,
and I stood up. And when they said guilty, I
couldn't stand anymore. I had to sit down or I
would just pass out. I was so much shock. If
this were a boxing match, we won every single day.
(29:19):
The prosecutor helped prove our case, even when the accelerator
stuck and the police officer waved the mechanics away, saying, oh, no,
the problems in the car, Yeah, the problem was sitting
next to you taking notes. He wrote specifically across the
top of his notepad, accelerator sticking, then swore under oath,
I have no idea why I wrote that there was
(29:41):
nothing wrong with the car. Bullshit. You knew that the
mechanics an engineer that was there would have found the problem.
It would have proved that I was innocent.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
The big mistake to me that among all the other mistakes,
was judge not allowing a change of venue, because you know,
maybe you could have gotten a fair trial for.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
What was disheartening too, is that there was a problem
with that vehicle. That Ford did recall that engine, but
only on the pickup trucks, not on our station wagon
for that year. My lawyer tried to enter it into
trial at the time, and to judge said that because
it was not the pickup truck recalled, he wouldn't allow
him to enter in evidence until the trial was over with,
(30:21):
so the jury never got to hear it.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So you've been in prison of for thirty years. I
know you recently survived COVID on top of everything else,
But can you explained that the prison experience.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh that wasn't there for my wife at the funeral
for our children. My grandparents who raised me passed away
while I was in here. These are just the emotional
ones there. This has nothing to do with the pain
that I went through dealing with all these people in
the beginning. I could tell you that the first ten
(31:08):
years were horrible. Matter of fact, the first five I
have had more death threats, evil stairs, things thrown at
me every day NonStop for five years. I'm surprised I
even survived it. And then the next five years, instead
of being daily, it would be once or twice a week,
(31:28):
and then eventually once or twice a month, and then
finally down to once or twice a year. Now I
can go several years before I hear a discouraging word
from somebody. But I have over the last two decades
made a lot of good friends in here. You are
the company you keep, so I try to keep company
with people I would have as my friends and neighbors
(31:50):
out in the world.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Can you describe a ray of light that you can identify.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
The best thing that's ever happened to me was getting
on maintenance twenty two two years ago. I've had the
opportunity to learn so much about things that I never
knew before, so much about repairing buildings, clients, repair heating,
air conditioning, electrical I spent one hundreds of dollars on
books and thousands of hours studying to get as good
as I am. Now. I'm very good at what I
(32:18):
do today.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You've had appeals over the years, but it hasn't resulted
in any relief. Can you explain why that process is
dragged on for so long?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Well, my lawyer, Frank Eman, did an excellent job throughout
the entire process. I owe him everything. The system itself
is very slow. The courts don't care if you're innocent
or not. They just care did to get a fair trial.
I didn't get a fair trial, and I went through
the federal courts where they split politically eight to seven.
(32:51):
I don't remember if his Democrats Republicans Republicans Democrats. You're
supposed to be impartial. You're supposed to vote your conscious
what you see. You're like a referee in a football game.
You're supposed to judge everything by what you have before you.
Every one of the judges said that they are disappointed
in the state of Michigan for allowing suppressed evidence to
(33:13):
be released to the media before trial. You would think
that we get you to the United States Supreme Court,
but it didn't. I guess some clerk putting in there
in my case doesn't warrant you going before the highest
court in the land. My life, my constitutional rights violated,
and that doesn't go before the highest court in the land.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
There's still one remedy left for clemency from Governor Whitmer.
You've recently submitted your clemency petition. You know, clemency is
to me something that I've been telling anyone who would listen,
including people in power, that this is an underused power
that is given very deliberately to governors and presidents because
(33:58):
they are to serve as the last sort of stop
gap to prevent injustices from being allowed to stand. And
your case cries out for it, as I think anyone
who's just listened to this podcast agrees. So is there
anything people can do to help generate momentum for your
(34:19):
clemency petition?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
You could write the pro board, try to contact the governor.
I've got thousands of signatures on this petition begging her
to hear my case to show clemency. Visit the petition website,
sign the petition. She can hear that people are concerned,
she may do something.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We're going to put a link to the petition in
the show notes. Please use your voice. Let's help bring
Larry home together. This nightmare has gone on for far
too long. Larry. We have a section of the show
that is my favorite part each episode. First of all,
I thank you for being here and for your courage
(35:01):
and for sharing your story. So thank you, Larry Delile.
You know our thoughts are with you, and we're going
to build momentum for you. With this podcast. This actually
the show is called Closing Arguments, and this is where
I turned my microphone off. I'm going to kick back,
close my eyes and just listen to your words.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
First off, I would like to say that I am
so proud of so many activists out there who are
protesting both social and racial injustice, the protesting against wrongful convictions.
You have to salute our heroes on the front line
in healthcare who are taking everyone who has COVID nineteen,
(35:43):
all these tragic deaths that are happening in everyone's family.
My heart goes out to you. I would like to
thank Ashley Ross and Carla Beck for everything they've done
to get to this point. They have been very stunched.
They started a petition, they supported a petition, and I
(36:05):
love them to death. There are so many people that
have written me since the Netflix documentary came out. Bless
you all. Thank you very much. Please please stay safe
out there.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(36:43):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Number One and worked hard to ensure that all facts
reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions
expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their
own and do not necessarily reflect those of Love of
Her Good
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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