Andor Season 2 (Episodes 7-9) Roundtable

Jason and Rosie are joined once again by the Jedi Council to dive deeper into the third batch of episodes in Andor season two. And Emperor Aaron joins again for a face-off against the Council.

Jason’s Movie List: Andor Season 2 Syllabus, or How to Resist an Empire

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Worrying.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
Today's episode contains spoilers for and Or season two episode seven,
eight and nine, the third tranch of chapters from and
Or season two.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
If you weren't.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hello, my name is Jasconcepcio and I'm Rosie Night.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to X ray Visions, the podcast movie dived
your favorite Jos movies, comics of pop culture for by
our podcast, where we'll bring you three episodes a week
every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Speaker 4 (00:41):
In today's episode, we are calling everyone back to Abbin
to discuss episode seven A and nine of Andor's second
season for our round table. It's roundly being called some
of the best star wars you've ever seen, not just
by me and Jason in all recently released social clips,
but also by the critical mass. There's one person who
won't be calling them that will.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Well let him in lay up.

Speaker 4 (01:04):
So let's welcome a Boo and Joel. How you doing, guys,
So nice.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
To have you, guys.

Speaker 5 (01:10):
Very excited.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
My eyes hurt from crying. It's a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
There was a lot, a lot of emotional stuff going on,
so let's just let's dig into it. Let's talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, first, you know, we've heard our Rosie and I
are opinions on this What what What are y'all's thoughts
on episode seven through nine?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
A boo, let's start with you.

Speaker 5 (01:33):
My thoughts are not much changed from last time. I
feel like a broken record at this point. But every
week I'm like, that was the greatest Star Wars I've
ever seen. It can't possibly get better. And then I
watched three more episodes of this show, and I'm like,
that was the greatest Star Wars I've ever seen. It
just keeps getting better. I think, gosh, I don't even
know if this is I'd have to like rewatch this

(01:55):
whole show and like really process it. But at the moment,
at the height of my emotions, having just watched and
rewatched this set of episodes, I think it's the best
one so far. And I might just be saying that again, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
And I will say because there's gonna be quite a
lot of I think that sentiment. Aboo, what is it
for you that makes these three episodes some of the
best Star Wars, if not the best Star Wars that you.

Speaker 5 (02:22):
Use mon Mathma keeps getting hotter? Important topic, No, I
think what's really gosh? I mean, like the stars aligning
the planets, aligning with the show releasing in this moment
in time, just keeps hitting it in ways that I

(02:44):
find like extremely unexpected, like Mon Mathema's speech. I was
expecting Mon to drop a fire speech, and she did.
But I think her specific use of the word genocide
given everything that's going on in the world, particularly in
the Israel Palestine corner of the world right now, like
Mon saying that word on the Senate floor to countless

(03:04):
people in a broadcast, to who knows trillions of citizens
across the Galactic Empire. Saying that word out loud and
acknowledging it, that kind of for me personally, hit like
a truck. And the show continues to do that over
and over again in ways that feel we've said it,
you know, on these episodes many times, but that feel
prescient in a way that is shocking.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
In a speech about the what you call it abyss
between what we know to be true and what we're
able to say here, I mean fucking chills. And I
think compounded by the fact that it follows the attack
on Gore and the last speech. Dina's giving this speech

(03:48):
over the radio and she's talking about how her people
are being massacred and dying around her, and she's like,
anyone can hear us? Like we're dying? I mean, I
and it tempt not to cry too early as sobbing,
Like I think it's just some of the most beautiful writing.

(04:08):
But also I think in a series about war to
bring us to a true point of hopelessness and crafting
a narrative around it so that you can too be
in it and feel it. I mean, I know, again
we say it all the time, but like the way
this Plus is rogue one in such a profound and
significant way, in the way that was able to Plus

(04:30):
a new hope. I mean, I think it's just so
impressive to be able to raise a series that's been
around for forty plus years in new and shocking ways
by treading over the things that made the series essential
in our hearts in the first place. I mean, what
he does with the force in this and I mean,
we'll get into it later, but I didn't know that

(04:53):
you could show and not tell us what the forces
without having to use like CGI and magical whimsy chimes
and stuff. He showed us what the force is without
any force powers. How'd you do it? It was incredible.
I was so moved by the series of episodes. To me,
this is the best Star Wars movie of all time,
and it is because it's hitting on the rebellion, it's

(05:15):
hitting on the politics, it's hitting on the purpose and
importance and impact of faith. I don't know if there's
better TV on or has ever been better TV on period. Yeah,
it's brilliant.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
I think it's I think it's clearly the best TV
that's on right now. And I think we've we've been
banging that drum for a little while. Yeah, I had,
you know again, for a show that is obviously not
connected at all to current events at all, to find

(05:51):
the way it's resonating, it's just it's It is incredibly powerful.
And the thing that I took away from these episodes
in particular is this is kind of the awakening for
everybody that, Okay, there's no way forward without losing, without
getting hit, without giving up something, without sacrificing a relationship,

(06:16):
without sacrificing comfort, without sacrificing safety. There's no way to
go forward through this without being labeled a criminal or
an outlaw or a terrorist. Like and in a lot
of ways after that it seems like everything is is
almost easier. I'm fascinated also by the by the way

(06:41):
that these episodes in the series plays with some of
the tropes of Star Wars.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I think Dedra and Cyril for instances about them.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah, because we're used to the idea in Star Wars
of the villain who is redeemed, who comes to a
moment where they realize, oh shit, on the bad guy,
I've been doing evil because I'm hurt, because I'm traumatized,
I'm doing evil for quote unquote the right reasons. Now

(07:09):
it's time to stop doing this. And we see both
Cyril and Dedra come to these realizations, but in ways
that are completely twisted from what we're used to. Cyril
has the scales falls from his eyes. He realizes, oh wait,
the Empire is doing bad stuff. People who don't like
the Empire are not diluted fools who have been misled

(07:32):
by you know, agitators. But he's still more comfortable throwing
his lot in with the bad guys than he is
doing anything else.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
And then there's Dedra, who is.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Broadly against what is happening and what she's taking an
active role in doing, but is against it for purely
like personal reasons of ambitions and career. I think I
think that's really fascinating, showing the different ways that you
can be for something that's absolutely fucking terrible.

Speaker 4 (08:13):
I completely agree. I think that this show and something
that has become very clear from my rewatches and then like,
as soon as this episode's hit, I'm in the discord,
I'm on ready, I want to know what everyone else
feels about it. I think something that Gil or I
did here was gave us more time with the Imperials
than we've ever gotten before, and not just time of

(08:36):
what do they believe in? What are they doing? Personal time,
personal interactions, and they humanized them, not so we would
feel empathetic, so that we could understand where they were
coming from. Sooo, what was your read now that.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
We're this far in?

Speaker 4 (08:53):
Obviously we are the rip, They're all part.

Speaker 6 (08:57):
Of the Swiss, I think we would say, but aboo,
how did that part of these episodes speak to you
and kind of help raise it above what we've seen
before in Star Wars.

Speaker 5 (09:12):
Yeah. Look, I think the two of you aptly called
Cyril a rat many times in your recap, and that
certainly fits the label is well deserved, but all throughout
Episode seven, in particular, where we see Cyril go out
into the massacre and you're like, is he gonna do something?
Is he gonna help someone? I was waiting for that

(09:34):
classic Star Wars redemption moment to happen, and I think
the show very much knew that as well. It was
very much teasing the serial redemption moment back to the light.
He saw his mistakes, the error of his ways, and
he's gonna do something small maybe, but something enough to
redeem him.

Speaker 7 (09:52):
And he doesn't no.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
The thing I loved about that moment Abo is it's
almost like he's so mad at Cassian, yeah, for bursting
his bubble, for making him realize the truth, and he's
almost more angry at that he would have preferred to
stay in the fantasy that the Upper's grade and everything's
gone great and all that shit.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (10:15):
I think that's the same reaction he has with who
is at Papa Rye Lance, the older, older man. He
tries to actually stop, you know, he realizes it's a trap.
And that was very hard for me to watch too,
because obviously the dramatic irony there as the viewer, I
know it's a trap. And this guy's right and nobody's
listening to him, and it's too late. But Cyril confronts

(10:35):
him as well and really like rough houses him, throws
and throws him to the ground. And I think it's
because he's coming face to face with the humanity of
the Gormans and the mistake that he's made. You know,
he's having these emotional outbursts and these reactions, literally grabbing
Dietre by the neck. I was like, oh my god, Yeah,
my god, I think it is. It was very enjoyable

(10:58):
for me to watch the serial breakdown happen. And at
the same time, part of me, the especially the little
kid in me who grew up watching Star Wars, was
waiting for Cyril to redeem himself and he never did.
And I think that that was brilliant and shocking.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
Joelle, how about you.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
I really appreciate So Dan Gilroy wrote this set of episodes,
and so I just want to make sure we like
shout out what he's done here to me, Like, I
it's so easy to hate Cyril, like wow, whiney Mama's boy,
like boot liquor rat, Like it's really easy to throw

(11:38):
all these lables. But she's earned, like not taking anything
away from that, but what I think has been done
really well here is there's a removal of the idea
that any of these people are monsters. Right, Like Will
at one point is like daters of monster. I don't
think datres a monster. I think Datre's a person who's
only just now discovered like true love. And I don't

(11:59):
mean just in the romance sense, like this is the
first person who's ever loved Dandra and taken time and
invested in her and believed in her beyond just what
she was able to do for him.

Speaker 8 (12:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
I think Cyril is a person who was told this
is what it is to be a man, and like
a good person is to fight for the empire. And
he's I'll just be a little crash, too stupid to
figure out like what's actually going on, like staring him
in the face. He doesn't see it at all. He's
so gobsmacked by the idea that he was like, it's

(12:30):
not you. They don't even think it's you. They think
it's outside people. And the guys like do you think
I'm stupid? Like how could you even say this word
to mean? He's like, no, I believe these words these
words aren't true. What's going on? And then the only
person that's ever been genuinely kind and supportive and defended
him that we've seen Deadra has been lying to him
for a years and he's finding all this out at
the same time, and he is unraveling in front of us.

(12:53):
And I think, I just think it's it's profoundly important
to remember all times that everyone you're dealing with is
a human and is a person, and so that when
you get to this final moment for him, you're not
so much mourning him as just mourning every point in
time that you've known him where he might have seen

(13:14):
the light and just made a different choice.

Speaker 4 (13:17):
I do think that you made the point about, like,
how do humans enact terrific things? And this is a
great study in that. And I love I didn't actually
realize that this was Tony Gilroy's brother, Dan Gilroy, who
wrote this episode, So I'm saying, brother.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
All three Gilroy's out here cooking absolutely is crazy. And yeah,
I just think I think, what like if we look
at like what's going on with Daja for a minute,
like she like, I mean, I went for Dadrea. Guys,
that's incredible writing that's incredible acting. I hated this woman
and she's so alone at the end of this, and

(13:56):
again from her own making. I don't feel bad for her.
She put herself in this position again at any time.
She is the one who literally is in the position
to call for this attack to happen or not. She
is guilty every which way you look. And yet I
feel for how alone and completely isolated and devastated by
her own decisions and how you understand fully she's never

(14:19):
ever going to get what she's seeking on this path.
There's no possible way, Dandre, for one one execu to another.
Your job cannot love you back, give you anything you
need things outside of this, and she has nothing. And

(14:39):
I just I mean to witness to hold space for
both their tragedies again that they set up themselves and
the horrific massacre of Gore.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
I I don't.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
I didn't think I had space for that kind of
except like realization, acceptance in my heart, in my body.
For them to do in a show, it's just entirely moving.
It's wonderful. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
I have a slightly different tweak on the dedrashial are
humans kind of a perspective which I completely agree with
It's important to remember the fleshing out of these characters
to allow you to understand how they came to this place.

(15:27):
I think is really important.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
And for me it's what is What.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Hits is how is less about the tragedy of their
lives and more about how how much humility these characters
have to take into what they're doing, because it's not
that far away from what Cassian and the rebels are doing.

(15:53):
In terms of like an ideological leap two. It's just
like a little bit more thought, be a little bit
more thoughtless, be a little bit more closed off, be
a little bit less questioning, and you're just and you're
that person right without real without realizing it.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
And I think it's that.

Speaker 3 (16:12):
It's that the idea that it doesn't and really doesn't
take that much.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
For you to for people who are just trying to
work a job to enact something terrible. That is truly
the for me, the gut punch thought of this, like,
these aren't these aren't spectacularly special.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
People, you know, these are just sociopaths that they have enlist,
that people who have raised in a system. And I
think this makes this Jason, that's such a good point
because I do think as well as this is not
based on any specific real life experience, but we are
in a time again where we are getting reports that
people who are doing horrific things, who are disappearing. People

(16:57):
are saying, hey, I'm just following my orders. I'm not evil,
I'm just doing what the government tells me. And I
think there is definitely a continuous reckoning with that kind
of idea in this And Tony Giro did a great
interview with the Hollywood Reporter. Obviously, the show is in
pre production twenty twenty two, so it's more about being
prescient than no, like just making shows that are so

(17:21):
good that they end up feeling realistic whatever timeline you're in.
But he had this great thing, which I think is
a really good point, which says the really sorry truth
about this question about the genocide, question about the reality
of the show and what inspired it. And he said,
and we get it a lot, is that peace and
prosperity and calm are the rarities. Those are rarities throughout

(17:41):
the last six thousand years of recorded history. You could
drop this show at any point in the last six
thousand years and it would make sense to some people.
About what is happening to them. And I love the
notion of like Gilra is like, bro, human history sucks,
and guess what it's sucking right now. And it sucked
fifty years ago, and it sucked one hundred years ago.
And that's why this feels so relevant. And I kind

(18:06):
of love the almost like nihilistic viewpoint on that. And
the truth is, look, there's a reason it moved everyone.
People speaking truth to power, and as he continued to say,
is like the control of truth has always been the
scabbard of power, and power dictates the narrative. And look
at what the Empire does to Gorman with their propaganda campaign,

(18:26):
and that is like the realist shit, because I think
that is what makes it feel so real, is like
those people are in that system and at any point
in life a change could come where they would see
something different. Cassium wasn't always going to be a revolutionary.
He wasn't born into it, you know. And I think,
to me, the fact that this feels so real and literally,

(18:47):
like two days ago, we're hearing people say, oh, I'm
just following my job when they're disappearing people under the
guise of ice or homeland security and it feels just
as relevant to have that conversation. That is the power
of what Tony girl doing. As he said, it's not
a psychic this was made in twenty twenty two, But
I'm like, actually, that's the power of the storytelling. Can

(19:08):
you make something that feels so timeless that it has
literally started a global political discourse due to one speech
that you wrote two years before the Israel Palestine conflict
as it is now existed, Like that to me is
like an unbelievable understanding of history and human nature. And

(19:28):
I think that is what the stuff, specifically with Deirdre
and Cyril really was giving me, like a lot of
feelings in this of like how horrific to be the
human who makes the wrong choice and look at what
you've done, like look at the death you've caused, because
at no point did you listen to any kind of
inkling within yourself of whether this was right or wrong.

(19:51):
And I just think that's like unbelievable storytelling. And also
like rest in peace, piss to Cyril, as Jason put it,
like I don't care, like sorry, but I do think
it's an incredible story.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Let's take a quick break and then we'll be right
back before.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Y m h.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
And we're back.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Jason, you raised a great point that I really wanted
to ask you about earlier. Would the Empire of one
if they had been more patient, like is the gold
massacre the critical misstep that it then goes on to
ignite the rebellion as not to not to.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Coach up, the not to coach up if I had
orchestrated the this is.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
That said, not not saying you're doing, but that said.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
I think what what is fascinating to me about about
the massacre and about this is.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
What's the rush?

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Guys?

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Why you need the Death Star for what?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Like? What problem is the Death Star solving that the
fleet can't solve? And I would argue again not to
not to coach up the empire. But had they gone slower?
And I think this is in part a function of
the structure and culture of the empire, with all these

(21:26):
lap dogs all the way up to Palpatine just looking
to please their master Krenic. I'm under I must go faster,
mof Tarkan.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
I must go faster.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
I must please the Emperor. You know, I think if
they had gone slower and taken more time, I think
maybe they win.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
I think I think maybe they have all of all empires.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Like that's why I about to say, the only thing
that the greed cannot help but topple itself, like the
the the graphs, the firm graphs cannot help, but like
crush and stuff, okay, everything it tries to touch. I
don't know if there's even if they crawl, you're going
to eviscerate an entire plant. Now you might do ovisterate
this planet and not have an immediate rise of action. Galactically,

(22:12):
perhaps they could have stuffled that out sooner, but really
it's just mod getting what like two inches ahead of them,
like two seconds to say, hey the emperor did this.
That really allows forward momentums. I don't I don't know.
I think the all empires are doomed eventually.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well yeah, but there's a difference between like, you know,
five hundred years and five I think, you know, like
and these guys electrily.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Like one.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
I and I think that they're I think that I
think the Death Star in and of itself is like
a huge mistake and was a vanity project and ego
project to say, like we've got the biggest gun in
the galaxy and when you really look at it for
what was necessary for what you have the Senate you

(23:05):
already age doing genocide easily. Galactic system is completely under
your control. The media, the galactic media completely under your control.
You have despite this nascent rebellion.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
That is.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
Very courageous.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
But like I bet you, like you could find some
independent statistician in the in the galaxy right now to say, okay,
like what are they really what are they really doing?

Speaker 1 (23:33):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (23:34):
Like a propaganda army.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, you've got a propaganda arm You've got a justice
system for that reason, why do this? And I think
it was the shock of this and Mon's courage and
the courage of all the rebels in the face of
this that allowed everybody to wake up, because I think
there's an argument that if they go if like the

(23:57):
boiling the frog in the water, if they step it up,
people will just be like, you know what, I don't
like the empire. This sucks, but I'm not looking for
to get killed, you know.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
Yeah. I think my brain like was melting in my
head as I realized just how not relevant to real
life this is this hundred days last hundred days of
speeding through destroying democracy. I'm like, that was like melting
my brain because Jason, You're absolutely right. Aboo, how does
the balance between these huge intergalactic political conversations and questions

(24:34):
about the empire and their efficiency merge in this three
episodes with the kind of heart of the show with
bix and and or like, did those big swings work
for you? Because it's very tonally different. But I think
it landed.

Speaker 5 (24:49):
Yeah, I think it absolutely landed. And before I get
to that, I do want to offer up a potential
answer to Jason's question why did the empire rush here?
I think perhaps in a addition to normal bureaucratic like
I gotta suck up to the boss in front of
me and always have something like exciting and new to report.

(25:09):
It's boring if credit goes to the ghost of Palpi
and is like, yeah, things are slow and steady. Just
hang tight.

Speaker 7 (25:15):
It's gonna take.

Speaker 5 (25:19):
This is like a it's a very long term, fifteen
year plan. I need you to hang tight, Like to
be real, Like, nobody at their job can go to
their boss and like say that enough times before their
boss is like, so nothing.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Is happening, and you're like it is it just has
to be so we do we They do have the
time constraints of the story as it was in nineteen
seventy seven and before.

Speaker 5 (25:40):
So I do like that absolutely, But I think there
it also speaks to a culture of arrogance within the empire,
like you do could to control the media, you do
control the biggest fleet in the entire galaxy. Who cares
about these rebels, Like we'll just crush them, It'll just
be a blitz on the radar, and we're just so
big and unstoppable. Uh, And maybe it speaks to a
little bit of arrogance on about Palpatine as well, like

(26:05):
he almost single handedly toppled a republic, getting wiped out
the Jedi quote unquote wiped out the Jedi. So what
are a couple of like rich French Gorman is going
to do to him?

Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know?

Speaker 5 (26:17):
So I think that top level arrogance might maybe seeps
down to lieutenants and then subordinates and then all the
way down to folks like Dadri and Carrel. This idea
that like we're unstoppable, we are the machine. What are
a couple of rebels.

Speaker 8 (26:29):
Going to do?

Speaker 5 (26:31):
And so, yeah, if we want something, we just take it.
There's no need to go slow and easy and worry
about any outside agitators actually endangering us. But I think overall,
the politics of the show combined and contrasted with the
very personal stakes for and Or and Bix. To get

(26:51):
to your question, Rosie, that absolutely works for me because
I think the show brilliantly does here's large scale, and
here's how the large scale affects the person and the
personal and the interpersonal. And so you know, as we
see over the arc of these three episodes, like the
heartbreaking decision that Biggs makes and how that affects and Or, like,

(27:12):
none of that has to do with I mean, of
course it does have to do with the big picture
empire stuff, but that is two people figuring out a
relationship and their current circumstances, and both of those things
hit just as hard, which is brilliant.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Let's talk about that, because there's a conversation a little
bit in our discord about about whether or not about
this idea that there's there's a discussion about whether the
show is kind of having it both ways, both saying
community is important in the face of oppression, you know,
grassroots connections between people, but also that relationships are going

(27:47):
to get broken, like you can't you have to break up.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
You can't be in love and also be a rebel.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I disagree with that.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
I disagree on several fronts.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Because I think listen, I think, I think the with
love and respect, with love and respect, I disagree. I
think the continuing escapades of Will in his uh in
his various passions, direct objection to.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
He's falling in love, He's happen some ride, He's a
functioning user.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, this guy is having so I I disagree with that,
but I but I understand the I understand the the notion,
and I think it's part of it is just like
the human objection to the idea that we want Cassie
and and Bix to be together, right and they and
they don't end up being together at least at the
end of these episodes. And I think that is hurtful

(28:49):
to people. But I wanted to get people's take about
how can you can you can you have a really
when you're in a rebellion, when you're in a war?
Can you juggle personal relationships and this larger struggle?

Speaker 1 (29:07):
I want to throw it back to our girl Marva, Yes,
and conversations she had with Cassie in where he was like,
but I'll worry. She's like, that's just love, dear, There's
nothing you can do about that. I think if you
feel this way, the show's doing a great job of
making you love and fall in love with these characters,
and not seeing them together is tremendously awful. And I

(29:27):
also think if you're a Star Wars fan, you are
used to love winning the day, and so perhaps that's
a little bit of an adjustment for you in this series.
I think loving acts don't always feel loving, And I
think when we talk more about the role the Force
is playing in this series, we can delve a little

(29:49):
bit more into Bigs's decision at the end. But I
was like, just genuinely, I think love is what is
keeping all of this together. I don't think the show
is telling you you can't have love. I think the
show is saying love is often comes from a point
of sacrifice. Yeah, it comes to and if you have

(30:10):
really great parents who at all have had to struggle
in their life, you'll completely understand this perspective of like
they they lose a lot in order to give you something.
All the entirety of the rebellion is an active love
to the entirety of the galaxy to say what we
want is the thing that Andor's repeat, Oh, the guys
is so brilliant. I don't know if you guy's going

(30:31):
back and watch season one at all, but in the
first three episodes, and Or is constantly like, I don't
know what to do. I mean literally, like every every
scene I think ends with him being told by another person,
here's what you're gonna do next, and then he goes
and does it. And in these episodes he's like, I
just I want to make my own decisions, and like,
that's literally what we're fighting for her. That is the

(30:53):
whole point of us being here is so that everyone
can make their own choices.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
I also think that the love thing is really interesting
because we do see Star Wars as love. Concerzole you,
even if you fall in love with your sister, don't worry,
She'll fall in love with someone else and that won't
be weird, Anna, like love is, you know, love is
a tangible thing. I love the EU. I have my
Star Wars you books back there. There's so much marriage,
so much love, so much personality and kind of fire

(31:23):
found through those relationships. What I think and on does
it's pretty fantastic is by show Joelle. I agree with
everything that you said, Like I think Bix is making
the sacrifice out of love. But what I think is
really interesting is they also represent like Theirdra and Cyril
as like, guess what, sometimes love is actually massively fucking
dysfunctional and does not save everything. Those who didn't decide

(31:45):
because they were in love that they had to, you know,
love concazole, let's escape, let's get off. Though I do
believe Cyril would have done that honestly because he was
a symp for Deirdre. But like they didn't come together.
Love is almost neutral in that space. It didn't make
it worse. Maybe their behavior actually got worse because they
met each other, you know, and she was able to
use a tool Cyril as a tool because of his love.

(32:07):
So I think something that the show does that's really brave.
There's showing us different kinds of love and not kind
of fitting into that idea of love will save the day.
But in some cases it can. And Biggs's choice, as
we know from watching Rogue, is a key choice and
is the reason that it ends up the death start
ends up being able to be destroyed. And I just
think that there's so much intrinsic complexity in their representation

(32:31):
of love that we often don't get in your classic
happily ever after style, which is, by the way, a
story that I love story trope, I love, I love
reading happily ever after romances. But I think that just
as the rest of the show is very complex the
representation of love and what it means to love and
whether you're a found family or you're loving someone just
because they're in the same situation as you, I just
think they really did something profound with it that until

(32:53):
you were kind of talking about Joel, I didn't really
clock on too just how much the dead rassyrial stuff
is kind of a refutation of the idea that if
you're in love, you're somehow pure, which I think is interesting.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
I completely agree.

Speaker 5 (33:06):
I also think the show is not saying there's only
one way to be a rebel, and that and that
you must sacrifice a B C D in order to
check the boxes of Okay, now you are a rebel,
now you are casting it, or I think that's you know,
we have seen I believe YouTube Jason and Rosie said
this in your recaps, but the show has continuously showed
us how the little guy, the normal person can do.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
The small, tiny thing.

Speaker 7 (33:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly to how did you put it?

Speaker 5 (33:34):
Gum up this come up the system? I think you
and that you know that hotel attendant might have like
a wife and kids or something like he maybe he
didn't give up love, but he still participated in his
own small way, and I would consider him just as
much a rebel as I would consider bix or and

(33:54):
Or or any or sent or any of the others
who have sacrificed many things. And I think the show,
I think it comes back to sacrifice. Joelle, you put
it perfectly like the show is displaying on screen, like
the types of sacrifice big and small, personal and profound
that are necessary to get a rebellion against a machine

(34:15):
like the Empire off the ground and into a place
where you have a base on Yevin and can go
public and give a speech in front of the Senate.
And in order to get there, some folks like and
Or will sacrifice a lot. Some folks like the hotel
attendant will sacrifice in their own way, but everyone will
sacrifice something at.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Some level, what does Lucent say everything in his original speech,
and then again when Cassian visits him in appropriately in
the middle of the night, breaking all the rules, he's like,
it's just everything, this is everything. So yeah, I do
think the show is kind of stating that, like it true,
rebellion is worth the risk of everything, But it's also

(34:55):
asking you to make some pretty intense decisions about like
where is that line? And it's sort of everywhere for
each individual, but it's different. Vermon is different from Kathy
into your point of boots. Rebellion looks different for a
lot of different people, but none of it is by
the wayside.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Well, I was just going to say, I think that.

Speaker 9 (35:15):
In a.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Kind of zoomed out way, the difference between the empire
and the rebellion is this idea of these two systems.
One this idea of communal sacrifice for the greater good,
where here's a goal that must be achieved freedom and
for everyone in the galaxy, a return to a more
equal system, and that means I have to give up something.

(35:40):
And the imperial system, which is basically order at the
cost of you all out there bear the worst brunt
of everything, and we all inside the system benefit.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
We pay none of the costs. We give up nothing.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
We give up none of our security, we give up
none of our freedom, we give freedom within the system,
we give up none of our comforts, we give up
none of our luxury, and we put all the cost
of maintaining this on everybody who disagrees with us, and
everybody who.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Is outside this circle.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
And I think, to me, that's kind of the at
the core the difference between these two ideas, Rosie, what
were you going to say?

Speaker 4 (36:24):
Oh, that's real as hell, and it actually leads in
perfectly what I wanted to talk about is like, I
love this notion and we've talked about it a lot
in the group chat of like what does it take
to make a rebellion? And I think that these three
episodes really lean into that tension between like the scrappy
day one resistance like can we do it? And the
growing legitimate rebel alliance. We see it so we see

(36:45):
it with mon Mathma, we see it with and Or,
we see it with the big change that we will
get to talk about with Mod's speech. So how did
that hit for you, Joelle? Getting to see all these
different parts, the sacrifice, the clothes maker, that someone who
probably like dons your socks and somebody who makes a
Molotov cocktail, Like, what was it, Like, what spoke to

(37:06):
you about that aspect?

Speaker 1 (37:07):
With these episodes, I think there's like no space where
this is more profound than just the singing of like
their national anthem on gorn exactly that part. I think
the like it leads right off from the speech the
the guy who started it from last week. You know,

(37:29):
they're at the table. He's like, hey, like, nothing else
matters except the fact that we're gorn. Like I don't
care if you're like launching bottles or or like if
you want to be throwing pedals, It doesn't matter to me.
We have to do it together. And I think sort
of seeing these like that entire group of extremely passionate
people who are just so determined to protect their community,

(37:53):
who feel that the only thing they have is their voice,
and watching them be snuffed out, like I think, like
it is genuinely like a chilly experience, and yet it's
also like the ways they come together at the end
of that to escape try to protect each other from

(38:15):
the KT units when they come out, Like there's something
really profound about that And if you couple it with
going to the rebel base and seeing them like try
to keep Cassie and that there, like, yeah, you have
to follow orders. You're like, listen, you already know where
I stand. When you start telling me orders, I'm done
And they're like, gud, that time is coming whether you
like it or not, because we have to be organized,

(38:39):
which goes back to what Luther was saying last week
about you know, I need you to be thinking like
a leader, like further ahead. And what I what I
find really great about what these episodes have done is
they pushed every everybody had to be pushed to greatness
from a space of like desperation and that kind of
drive on your penultimate episode, odes, I mean really like

(39:02):
I feel on pins and needles waiting for next week's episodes,
especially because we know they're going to lead into directly
into Rogue one. Uh, you're kind of like we I
know we're jumping a year, but like, what what's left?
Like who's here, who's gonna survive? We feel pretty confident
Luthn has been telling us he's gonna.

Speaker 4 (39:19):
Die, Like, no spoilers, baby, it's happening. I'm dying.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Death is imminent for me, and so I think what
it has done seeing all these folks answer your question
is like it's made the rebellion more tactile. And I
think it's also burst open the world quite a lot
in that now when you revisit Star Wars, you're not

(39:44):
even just looking for like it used to be. Okay,
you could be a pilot, you could be a Jedi,
you could be a Sith, or you could be part
of the like senate. Yeah, those are the wings you
could occupy. But now it's like you want to be
a hotel clerk because he was fine.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
I feel like Disney ironically is solving a problem for
themselves with that, because if you recall the the ill
fated Galactic star Cruiser experiment, you know where you could
choose to be. They only really understood two different aspects
of the story, which was you can be on side
with Chewbacca or you can try and catch Chewbacca as

(40:26):
a Nazi, and you can dress up in these costumes.
And I think because for a lot of people, the
good bad notion of Star Wars is very clear and
has been very clear for a long time, that didn't
sit well. I think when it comes to immersing people
in options that they have kids who watch and or
I want to watch this show when I was ten,
Like I liked long I like long winded ass boring ship.

(40:47):
And I'm not saying that that's what this is, but
I'm saying like it er me up in a good way.
Aaron was like, wait a minute, ros I'm you Aaron,
whack them alling you call we get over the hype.
But like, I think the idea that like a kid
or a younger person watching this, or a fifty year
old person watching this who has never really thought outside

(41:08):
of like bad he's bad, and good he's good. I
think there's an incredible space where you could see yourself
in the hotel clerk. You could see yourself as the
person coming up the machine. That's always what Rogan did
well to me, and I think this expands that in
such an incredible way.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
That's a great point, Rosie. I think a lot of
what we're responding to is like the the transition of
Star Wars from purely a spectator sport to the kind
of thing that you could imagine taking part in, you know,
beyond the kind of like childhood fantasy of like having

(41:44):
the force and I'm having a calling. Yeah, I'm glad
we're calling out the hotel clerk. And also, you know
we should call out the workers in the Senate House
who like were like I don't know where you know.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
That made me like like fucking warm.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
It's and it's the government first episode.

Speaker 4 (42:05):
We don't know what happens to her. Did she die? Yes,
she made that choice to walk with and or and
she helped make this happen.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
It's spanning.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
It's this is really the first time in Star Wars
where in one selection of episodes or one self contained
bit of story, you can see the entire breath of
the rebellion from the grassroots people like the hotel clerk,
all the way up to General Draven mon Mathma. And

(42:35):
I mean, the other thing that's really notable about these
episodes is this is the final death of authentic senatorial
politics in the galaxy.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
This is like the end.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
This is the end of the illusion that the Senate
does anything, Like we're doing away with that now. It
doesn't do anything. It's just a figlely for the empire.
And the way this show connects that idea to the
kind of struggle that's going on within all of these

(43:07):
characters to decide to either go along with what's happening
or do the right thing.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Is is really profound. Let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back.

Speaker 7 (43:32):
And we're back.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Let's talk about the tensions now that are quite clear
between these day one rebels as you put at rosy
Cassian and the rest and the kind of dispersed cells
saga eras you know upstart, he's got activists, that's resistance
activists and the now ascendant authentic rebellion of real politicians,

(44:01):
actual professional military people who are trying struggling to kind
of wrangle control from a bunch of folks who have,
buy necessity, been acting independently of any kind of outside control.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
What were your How did that hit you? Aboo? How
did that hit you?

Speaker 5 (44:25):
I was it was very satisfying for me to see
how organized things have become on yab and as a
as a type a person who loves a spreadsheet and
can't wait to color code things. Draven being like, you
got a log where.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
This ship is going? Okay, did you submit the forms
or not?

Speaker 5 (44:43):
I was like, yes, please, thank you. Someone is finally
saying it, and honestly, somebody like Cassian would be my
personal nightmare in the rebellion, you know, like and I'd
be like logging everything meticulously and everything would be color coded,
and then Cassian would just like go somewhere without telling
me and.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
It and You'd be like that it would be like
an administrative.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Mess for me.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
You know, Draven would be breathing down my neck. But
that tension I think is really lovely to see in
the show because we are seeing the transition, we are
seeing the growing pains that come with that. We're no
longer in the wild West phase of the rebellion, and
we are moving now into the more organized, formalized, and

(45:24):
very public rebellion that we can get entire planets. We
can convert entire planets to our side.

Speaker 9 (45:32):
You know.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
We no longer have to find the random spy hidden
away on a planet to hire and have have work
for Luthans.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
We're past that stage.

Speaker 5 (45:45):
So I really like seeing that tension. I also really
admired cashand for being like, fuck you, I've done so much,
Like you.

Speaker 7 (45:51):
Don't need to tell me what to do.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
I think that's the most powerful shit is like these
are real no based on real life, but these are
real quandaries that people have about where their role is
in a rebellion, and also like what is the acceptable
face of a rebellion, and also like what counts as
self defense and what counts as terrorism? And I think
a lot of these questions are brought up in this

(46:17):
show in a way that does make it feel like
they were writing it yesterday. And I just honestly was
kind of blown away with that. It's kind of very
real to like the anarchists who may be at a protest,
who don't show their faces, who are willing to like
throw a brick or something, to the non profit versions

(46:37):
of activist groups that have to make it seem like, hey,
we want to work within the system we have. You know,
it's it's really, really.

Speaker 5 (46:45):
Really And I think that structure that's a lovely point, Rosie,
because I think that structure is necessary to legitimize, legitimize
your cause, yes, and to legitimize the public face of
your cause. You will not convert a galaxy kind a
bunch of spies operating in small cells and Luthen having
like unchecked power.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
I really loved the interaction.

Speaker 5 (47:06):
Between Luthen and Mon, where Mon is like, I'm more
afraid of you right now than anyone else really, And
it's because luthen Can could never be the face of
this rebellion and someone like him and.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
The rebellion can never exist. And yet full circle exactly.

Speaker 5 (47:24):
And both of those things are true.

Speaker 7 (47:25):
It's and I really liked very rare, very rare for.

Speaker 4 (47:30):
A show to want to get into the the in depth,
like almost inside baseball workings of what it takes to
make a rebellion. And I think that's another reason why
it feels like so prescient.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I think another thing that was just really intriguing to
me about this episode is this is the first time
we see the rebellion start to craft a narrative, a
myth of its own existence in a way that you know,
I think, in other our worst properties you would associate
with imperial activity.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Here's the lie. It was our elite heroes of Gold
Squadron that.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Swept Mond off of Coruscant to safety. Now we know
from that's from the rebel ship, right.

Speaker 5 (48:20):
And definitely didn't kill an innocent taxi driver that you know, definitely.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
And had nothing saying because he was.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
There's a moment though, where they cut back to him
as he's listening to mon a moth of speech where
I couldn't quite tell if he was like, wait for real, Yeah,
wait is it We're the bad It almost look like
he was having a We're the Batties moment, but he
was also coiffeused and also it's way too late, like
size have been drawn. But it was interesting. Again, I
think just to see the humanity of people awakening to

(48:57):
what is real and what's puzzle. Yeah, like that throughout
the series of episodes was really palpable. It made it
feel like, oh, the rebellion is happening, yes, and I
think when you already know the timeline, like, that's a
really clever way to make it more alive for foobole.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
Let's talk about that a little bit because we didn't
get into this in the recap, so basically we are
all Rebels stands. As you guys know, the animated series
Rebels one of the biggest kind of recon movements in
Star Wars that basically reintroduced people to the prequels and
set up a lot of stuff that we'd never seen
outside of the EU Expanded Universe novels. So there was

(49:36):
a lot of discussion in our group chat that's how
you know we were nerds. This was not even in
the discord. We're messaging each other and we're like, guys,
so what does this mean for the canon because mon
Mathma made a different speech. So in Entertainment Weekly, that's
how Big Star Wars is now, this is where the
scoops are going. Tony Gilroy basically explained the change and said,

(49:57):
we are hijacking Cannon. In Cannon, she is rescued by
the Gold Squadron and the speech that they gave in
the cartoon, which was a canonical show, is on that ship.
And his brother Danny was like, do I have to
stick to this fucking speech as it that's a direct quote.
As it turns out, they found a way that they
didn't have to, which is basically the conclusion we came

(50:17):
to in our group chat was basically like Cassian does
his rescue, she does the speech, evades Bale's corrupted squadron,
he delivers them to the safe house, but their Gold
Squadron pick her up as they hinted, and she does
the speech that we see in Rebels.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
Right from the ship. From the ship, and so she does.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Make that speech, it's just not the speech which I
think is very interesting in this show because they have
also done that with the Gorman Massacre, which in Expanded
Universe was a talking massacre that had happened for a
long time and was kind of referenced. But what they
did with this is they now have two Gorman massacres,
and the one that everyone says is the one that

(51:01):
sparked the rebellion is no longer talking, you know, landing
on a bunch of people. It is now this version
that we've seen an Andle. I think the way they're
able to build in those moments is so fucking great,
and so what we loved about Rogue one and the
fact that they're able to do it in a way
that's still respectful to the cartoon which did so much work,

(51:23):
but also you know, makes sense within the law that
Tony Gilroy is building here where kind of everything that
you think you know about the original Star Wars movies
is fake, Like there's a whole different layer to it.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
The thing I love about the way that Rebels episode
Secret Cargo works together with this story with and Or
is I now perceive the Rebels episode to be like
the propaganda version.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
Yes, that's powerful, and I.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Guess what I wanted to get at is this is
another decision that to me, the leaders of the rebellion
I assume, have to take in full humility.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
When do we lie?

Speaker 2 (52:08):
The empire lies? The Empire is lying about everything. The
Empire is lying about Gorman. The Empire is lying, you know,
about what they're doing on Gorman, about who started the
mask or etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And you could spread that
out across the galaxy. When is it okay? And I
think this is okay? What the what the what the
rebels have done? But I but it's not a decision

(52:30):
to be taken lightly. When is it okay to say,
you know what, let's lie.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
Here because.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
We need to do this in order to bring people
to our cause, to make us look more legitimate than
maybe we actually are at the moment? How did how
did you think about that decision? And how do you
think about it?

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Listen, Jason, not everyone watches c SPAN and when a
message out in a quick, edible way like like Squadron, Yeah,
saved man Mathma.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
And they are a great rebellions.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
We saved her life. Okay, we don't like what's good?
And so I think like choosing a narrative that is
easy to spread, quick to digest, and clearly it's true,
is the message and point.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
The true being like, hey, this guy just walked around
shooting a bunch of people.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
And it's like at least fifty Like it's not.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
No one needs to know we would have let Ma
Mathma die because we were too busy debating about should
we send Cassie and out or not. No one needs
to know what happens is we saved her. That's the
message going for it. So yeah, it was. What was
interesting to me, the most interesting is it's an echo
of what is and Or's future. Right, Andrew is going
to die without anyone knowing what he has sacrificed and

(53:54):
done to get to this point, and so it's interesting
to see how he accepts that, right, because you don't get.
All he get is that hug at the end, which
is so beautiful and and like, while what a declaration
of like love and reliance, whether it's romantic or not,
there's clearly a I see you between the two of
them in that moment. So that's really great. But here

(54:16):
we get she says, I don't know how to thank
you for what you've done. We don't know how to
thank Cassie and for what he's given us, and he says,
just make it worth and it settles something in you
about his eventuality. And I think that's very nice Dan
to give us, to be like, he's okay with this outcome.
This is what almost what he expects, and I think

(54:37):
that's really lovely.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
I agree, And before we jump to an ad break
and then introduce our regular hate section with Aaron the
Joelle talk a little bit about how that connects to
the Force and the use of the Force in this
show and specifically in these episodes.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
As a long time Star Wars fan, I was also
a very a huge fan of the Great Jedi. We
don't have to go into all the war. All you
need to know is there were people who were in
the middle. There were people who were in the middle.
They were in Jedies. They were said that they were
in the middle.

Speaker 4 (55:09):
It's not canon. Don't worry. We've been told many times,
but I don't care.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
I love it. And then uh, in Rebels, you get
is it bought? Oh fuck? Why can't remember the giant
guy's name? The monster dude. It'll come to me later.
Doesn't ben do think new story with the be So
then you get Bendu, who who has really profound things

(55:36):
to say about you know, how the force disorder for everyone,
and if you only see the good evil, you're missing
the bigger picture. Okay, we get a lunch lady who
can use a bit of power, not just to heal,
but to sort of see the future. I've been watching
the prequels for a project I'm working on. This is

(55:59):
a little bit, a little bit Anakin's power. He doesn't
know what he's seeing, but he's seeing something that he
knows to be true.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Very alphabe coded.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Absolutely as say listen, listen. This is the limitation of magic.
It's why we get to use it in stories.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
And so I.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
I think to have this woman represent in such an
almost casual way, like it's really it's it's so casual
how they introduce her. It's it's, hey, there's a healer
down here at your shoulders, not healing, I just want
you to be better. And he's so terrified of anything
that looks like faith. Again, another great insight insight into Cassian.

(56:44):
Cassian believes what he can do, he knows what he
can make real and that's his reality, and so to
interject anything outside of that is genuinely terrifying for him.
I think this is the cruxt of faith as it
exists in our world, whether you believe in it in
anything or not. What you can know is the impact

(57:07):
of people who have faith, right, the impact of faith
on people who do possess it, And to see it
in Bis in this way, this beautiful, beautiful way of
her being like, Hey, I'm feeling and seeing and understanding
that your role in this, this cause I believe in

(57:29):
is so important. I cannot be a distraction to you.
And she does it completely on faith. I mean, it's
the action of faith to say I have no idea
what's gonna happen to you, and I don't know what's
gonna happen to me. But in order for you to
focus on what I know to be good and true
and right, I have to leave you. I couldn't believe because,

(57:49):
I mean, this whole time, I've been afraid they were
just gonna kill Bicks. I thought she's dead. We know
he sacrifices everything, but the sacrifice was not one of death.
It was a choice to give you space and time
to do the job you were put on this earth
to do. The Force being more than just a magical
power the ability to bring us spoon to yourself from
across the room, but to be something that you not

(58:11):
just inertily feel, but that you trust and depend on
without any kind of proof.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Wow, I feel like the Force is always being explained
to us. There's Medchlorians. There's always been this real push
to be like, this is what the Force is, and
we're really defining to just let us lay back in
the cut and feel it and experience it with two
people who we deeply love, where this decision hurts us,
but we also ultimately know it's the right one, Like
that is the profound use of your pen to bring

(58:40):
and and it's the lynchpin. This is what makes this
show star Wars.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
This is it.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
If you ever were watching Cassie Andor and you were like,
this doesn't feel quite like Star Wars. It's got the
Star Wars background, but this is it. You can't it
can't be argued anymore. It's Star Wars, and it's so
firmly rooted in the legacy and Lord that we love
while also pushing it forward and growling it up I'm amazed.
I'm amazed at what they were able to do.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
What do you think about the lack of force or
the kind of way Forth is portrayed in the show?
How did that hit you?

Speaker 5 (59:11):
I really don't want to follow up what Joelle just
puts so beautifully, so I will just say here here
I agree completely.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah, Yeah, it's puff.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
That was incredibly well put.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
I want to quickly return to the to the idea
about lying for what you believe in which the rebellion
is doing here with their propaganda campaign to make a
gold Squadron the acceptable face of rebellion, understanding that like
it's either Cassian Saw or the heroes of Gold Squadron,
and we have to go with Gold Squadron because it's

(59:43):
something I've been thinking about too, you know, as I
understand that this is a show disconnected from all events, but.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
As you as you know, unless that's six thous as
I watch.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Establishment politicians like who I would ostensibly vote for usually and.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Normal times kind of cut away from.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Minority community after a community because like it doesn't poll well,
or because like it doesn't Hey, it looks like we
lost that argument with like mainstream America. I've increasingly wondered,
like why not lie about it? You know, like, yeah,
if you believe in something, and if you come to
the you know, I'm talking for me personally, like to

(01:00:29):
come to a place where like, Okay, I've I've looked
at it, I've studied my heart, my feelings. I think
that supporting this group of people is right. And if
the whole world, or a majority of the world, or
at least the portion of the world that is in power,
says you can't do that, then why not lie about it?

(01:00:52):
That's why I found this decision to be to you know,
bury the scrappy, upstart face of the rebellion in favor
of the more acceptable story that we can prepackage and
sell to the galaxy in order to hopefully win and
defeat this evil empire. I found it really affecting because

(01:01:12):
I think it's it is you know, it's something I
think about, like, if you truly believe you're right about something,
and telling a lie is how you get there. It's
not your first choice, but you kind of should do it,
even though it's it's not well by by the by

(01:01:36):
the letter of the law what you should be doing.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Yeah, yeah, generally I agree but just to hypothetically play
the devil's advocate.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
I do.

Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
Worry that that's a slippery slope because sure, Cassine, Cassine
is maybe one skeleton you can put and say, okay,
but how many closets do you continue to put away
in your closet before before you are just the empire?
Because the Empire, that's that's the best right the same way,
we believe we're doing the right thing and we just

(01:02:08):
have to get the messaging right. So what if we
have to lie a little bit along the way, like
just why about Gorman?

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
You know, like that's why that's I mean, I completely
agree with you, which is why, you know, when we're
talking about Dedra and Cyril and talking about this, I
try to stress like humility because I look at Cyril
and Dedra and I go, that could easily be any
of our heroes if things had been a little bit different,
if they had been a little bit less curious.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
If you were orphaned, and instead of Marv finding you,
the Empire finds you, which is what happened to Dedra.
So there's that's reflection there. I also think that you
hit on a really interesting and complex point, Jason, because
the reality is as is in real life and is
in this show that's not connected to real life. The
other side is already lying, like extensively to get what

(01:02:55):
they want done. And I boo, I think you're completely right.
The question is how many times can you lie or
how many times can you tell your version of the
truth before that slippery slope where suddenly forced.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
To use the tools of my oppressor exactly a thousand.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yes, yes, and it's either and it's lies in the
kind of abstract sense in this episode, and it's also
in the very concrete sense reawakening K two s O
as a tool for rebellion.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Yes, yes, I calm believe we didn't even talk about him.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
We don't get I think we'll get to talk about
him more and upcoming around tables at least.

Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
That's the.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Let's take a quick break and sound the imperial claxon
because the Emperor's shuttle is landing.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
And they're letting him out and he's here. He's gonna
be after the break, so.

Speaker 10 (01:03:54):
Listen after the break, Yeah, okay, and we're rack bomb bomb.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
Bum bum bum bum bum.

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
He's doing his hair, he's stretching, he's ready to tell
us this show is not as good as you think
it is, and we want to hear about it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Aaron Emperor is coming here.

Speaker 8 (01:04:31):
Team Yeah, Look, I love these three episodes of the
Book of Boba Fat. I'm sorry, sorry, and or and
or season two not.

Speaker 7 (01:04:39):
I guess up sometime you want to get told off.

Speaker 8 (01:04:45):
But I do think there's there's something before we start
we're talking about the show that just reminds me a
lot of talking about sports teams, and Jason, you'll you'll
know this, especially right now. You know you have a game,
you have the Thunder losing to the to the Nuggets,
and fans of the Under are going to say, don't worry,
that was a weird game.

Speaker 7 (01:05:03):
They're going to come back from it.

Speaker 8 (01:05:04):
Fans of the Nuggets are going to say, no way,
like you guys couldn't stop Jokic and like we had
bad games from other players.

Speaker 7 (01:05:12):
It's over.

Speaker 8 (01:05:13):
And then you you talk yourself into whatever argument you want.
And I think we're kind of in this place where
the four of you love Rogue One, you love the
first season of this show, and there's a lot of things,
there's a lot of things that I think you are
forgiving in this show. You don't forgive an other shows
for instance. Okay, first of all, I just want to

(01:05:33):
ask is the show helped or hurt by the fact
that it is Star Wars. I know, you just went
on this long monologue about the Force. I personally seeing
the X Wings go and the tie Fighters that was cool.
I loved when the X Wings are in that opening
shot in the seven and the Tie Fighters going overhead
the plaza in Gorman like that was very menacing. The

(01:05:56):
Force Healer did nothing for me. I thought it was wild.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
You are forced.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
Hey, you know what, this doesn't surprise me. This done
dun dun, dun sur me Because Aaron, you don't like
Grogue one, right, which is fine, that's your prerogative, but
that has one of the most nuanced, unbelievable explorations of
what is the Force? Who gets to be a Force user?

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Is the Force?

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
Just blind faith? And so if you don't like Grogue,
you probably don't like this part of the Force, which
I do think worked for me. But also I would
say generally, I think it is helped by being a
Star War because one, this is the best thing you
can do with an ip is to make it something
that makes people engage with stories in a way they

(01:06:43):
haven't before. It's what they did with Watchmen, which was
an unbelievably complex situation when it came to adapting it,
but they made something that expanded the world and got
a ton of different people to watch it to learn
about historical things that really really happened and that a
lot of Americans did not know. And I think that

(01:07:03):
right now it being Star Wars helps because I think
the ships and the pupew and the Stormtroopers get people
in and then hopefully they can learn something from it.
Coming up a machine, the importance of like allowing somebody
to grow on their own. So I think it I
think it is helped by being Star Wars because it would.

Speaker 8 (01:07:22):
Never have gotten It is helping because it's Star Wars
and we see Stormtroopers and we're like, yeah, I can
get into that. Or is it hurt by the fact
that we have a side plot featuring Sagarera, who I
hated in Row one and I hate here and Saw
and Will goes to hang out with Saw and then
he comes back and he's basically the same, except he's more.

Speaker 7 (01:07:42):
Loyal to losing.

Speaker 4 (01:07:44):
No no, no, I saw this. I saw this lie
that you put in the disco Will Will is still
hopping the rideo bro. You don't need to see it
because that motherfucker looking fuss.

Speaker 7 (01:07:53):
Okay, So this is another conversation here.

Speaker 8 (01:07:56):
You all have forgiven everything that happens offscreen in this
show in a way you don't in other things.

Speaker 7 (01:08:01):
So many things are being done on screen.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
The show.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
I will just say that that is like a very
circular argument.

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
To me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
It's like saying, well, you like you hate boiled chicken,
but you love fried chicken.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Like, I like stories when they're good, and this is
a good one.

Speaker 9 (01:08:23):
And does this story contain elements where in other less
well executed stories, I go, that's boring, that stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Nothing so but of course, of course, but I just
feel like this is a well done story and a
very you know, like this is a high degree of difficulty,
and is it made easier more palatable? Does the medicine
go down smoother because it star wars? Of course, but
still this is to me a really well done tail,

(01:08:55):
really exceptionally well done.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
I also think the structure allows for you you like,
whereas sometimes like the show is continuous, I don't want
to have to guess at things. The time that you've
spent and the time that you're showing me. You should
have highlighted that. But when you have year gaps and
you're only spending three days, the structure sort of lends
itself to allowing you to sort of have that lean in.

Speaker 7 (01:09:14):
So I'm okay.

Speaker 8 (01:09:16):
If they chose this structure, it wasn't mandated by law.
They don't get bonus points.

Speaker 7 (01:09:22):
Shows everything you don't.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Show because the structure.

Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
You pitch your structure, and the structure looks, then that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
If you pitch your your take would be, your take
would be, it would be better if it was like
the seven days leading up to mon Mathma's speech.

Speaker 8 (01:09:42):
No take would be that would be good to me.
Let's not make this be three day packets all at once. Now,
this three day packet is incredibly important and I loved,
so I will okay. Episode eight I like was in shock.
I loved episode e. I texted you a joke that
I loved it. It gave it an a plus because
of the little clacks and handheld devices.

Speaker 7 (01:10:04):
Those are amazing. I was all in on that.

Speaker 8 (01:10:06):
You give me a funny musical instrument, and I'm in
But I just think that the brutal adherence to three
days and then nothing and then three days is a
little silly along the lines of things that are solved
off screen. Daredevil, Born Again, Flawed Show, Not Perfect. We
all talked about how Muse shows up as this incredible

(01:10:27):
hand to hand fighter, and it's like, oh wow, okay,
I guess like we just handwave that he had a
taekwondo instructor. Here Cyril goes from Cyril's like number one
image is him lying face down on the bed because
his mommy was mean to him, and now all of
a sudden he's hand to hand beaten the shit.

Speaker 7 (01:10:46):
At a cassion, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
That this is not an organized fight. If he had
a bombing ring and he was like dodging and weaving,
that I would agree with you. There these hands, You're right,
You're right. Because and Or was not focused hand or
he is, he was not in the battle.

Speaker 8 (01:11:01):
He was totally confused and shocked, and and Siril was
the one that was really on top of Oh wait
around at.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
You in a rage air. I was gonna say, matter
how skilled they are, you are going to have to
like you're gonna livet and Cassian is not, from what
we've seen, an amazing like hand to hand fighter. He's
a spy, he's hide and he's Duckey's even he's shooting.
We don't know what kind of hands Cassian has already
don't seem like in a life where you had to
grow up and learn how to fight. I'm fine with this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
What what's the Sagarera issue?

Speaker 8 (01:11:35):
I just I thought Saw in Rogue one, I was
just in a different movie and they didn't do it
for me, and he didn't do it for me. Last batch,
I felt like that was this show has taken people
and put the and bench them in weird spots like
I think in the first batch, Cassian being on Yavin
with the poorly assembled rebels was something I didn't need.

(01:11:57):
I understand it shows that like rebel certaincies are not
perfect on day one and there's infighting in there are issues,
but it tells that in other ways throughout the story.
I didn't need Cassian on that planet. It just felt
like we need to delay him getting home to Bix
and said we're gonna do it this way Saw like
Will being Withsaw.

Speaker 7 (01:12:16):
I just didn't I didn't need it, dude, Aaron have you.

Speaker 4 (01:12:19):
Ever considered being a movie exactly because I feel like
you'd be given these notes and you're just mad, like
I don't get it.

Speaker 8 (01:12:27):
Start and then and my final thing about this episode is, wow,
they really did bigs dirty. Tell me, like, what a
lazy way to get her out of this her entire
art she is literally.

Speaker 4 (01:12:46):
Just accepting that she needs a bat at Chilla life
and the and or couldnot be.

Speaker 7 (01:12:50):
A part of it.

Speaker 4 (01:12:51):
She's like, I'm out.

Speaker 8 (01:12:52):
Bix's entire role in this season is to move along
Cassian's plot. What are the monumental things that she does?
She uh uh, she reads Luthen when he comes over
one time. Oh wow, that's amazing. The second thing she
does is she takes Cassian into the Force Healer. The
third thing is Cassian leaves, and she's like, I will

(01:13:14):
stay and talk to the Force Healer a little longer,
and then she willingly takes herself out so that Cassian
will stay in the rebellion.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Oh.

Speaker 8 (01:13:22):
She also she did talk to Belle very briefly about Cassian, like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Looking in surviving is not nothing. You have an addiction
after being nearly being tortured, nearly killed, nearly raped, like
run having to flee your home. What she did was
survive and that's not a small thing, and it's a
really challenging thing to do. And she did it not
in a small way.

Speaker 8 (01:13:47):
She does it in a way like a big way
to move Cassian's plot for it. It's very important.

Speaker 4 (01:13:52):
It's no, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
That's not about Cassian's plot at all. Like nothing that
she does, it's about pushing Cassian forward. Everything she does,
you should do that makes Cassie. You can make cassim
I will.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
From a structural point of view, he's continuously being taken
away from her, moving him in a direction, like everything
that happens between them is him very reluctantly separating from her,
like her moving his plot along would be okay, you know,

(01:14:27):
now he has to go on the Bix mission or
do the Bix thing, and that really does just that
never happens.

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
But I like, I'm not invalidating your perspective.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
Yes, your perspective is valid. But what I love most
about this is that before we came on to record this,
you were like, Adria, she's gonna get an Emmy.

Speaker 7 (01:14:44):
So you're like, you think I was joking because they
give her.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Just say one Let me just say one thing, because
this is d That's something I've noticed. This is something
I've noticed from various critiques of various shows, shows with
large casts, as and Ord has.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
And I It's it's kind of like the the critical.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Version of like a participation trophy, this idea that every
single character in every show has to have this like
heroic ride into the sunset, like we go to Valhalla arc.
When to me it's like, does the story work like

(01:15:29):
you can put yeah, I can pick things out.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
Did I want to know more about like this character?

Speaker 4 (01:15:33):
Yeah? Sure?

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
But like does to me it's like does the tapestry work?

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
Not?

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
Do I want more from one particular character or not?

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
I also think that ironically, I mean, what Aaron is
calling out is like a systemic issue within all storytellings
there are women. But what I will say, I think
that what makes this different, and this is important, she
is not the only woman. There are multiple different versions
of how men are living in the rebellion. On mamm
Mathma's daughter, you also have a Dina who we now see.

(01:16:08):
I think that where the onus of representation on characters.
I think that Bix gets to just survive and be
like I'm leaving because she she's lived the world and
she's not the only woman in the story. So I
don't think it's like she doesn't feel to me as
someone who is like the real you know what, the
real truth is if they wanted to push Cassian along,
they would have just killed her. That's the classic Fridging way.

(01:16:31):
I think this way, she's actually doing the opposite of
what Cassian wants, which could tear him away from the
rebellion as it is, because now he has to make
that choice, you know. So I think that I think
that I understand your critique, but I also don't necessarily
see it in.

Speaker 8 (01:16:49):
The same I mean, the show has incredible women. I
mean Claire mon Mathma. I love Clayre's evolution into the set,
like the long hair and suddenly she's not just like
hiding behind Luthen and she's like doing stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
Yeah, people are like, is claar like secretly like a sith?

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Like what is up with this sick dri.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Like she came out long enough. She yes, I know
how to dress.

Speaker 7 (01:17:16):
She's like, this is the role of two me and Mike.

Speaker 4 (01:17:19):
It's like looking looking cool as hell. Okay, Aaron best
you did mention, And I think this is important because
it is fun to be a hater and we all
love to hate on stuff. But you mentioned the episode
eight was good for you, so could you talk a
little bit about what worked and why it stood out someone?

Speaker 8 (01:17:33):
Episode eight turned my emotion on immediately and ratcheted up
the entire time. This episode built in a way that
I was not expecting, Like I felt like this, this insurrection,
this rebellion, this riot, this massacre is happening. The use
of the chanting, the use of then transitioning that to

(01:17:55):
singing again, like the the fucking sound of every single
shot that's made in the very beginning, when the K
two droids come out and kick the fucking stanchion into
the first person like it. Eight was incredible, and nine
does that in a similar way, but not in a
physical warfare way, but with this political although I do.

(01:18:17):
It's one of my notes, one of my notes for nine.
There is my note for nine is how much it
must suck to be the people in the Senate on
the bottom row where you're just looking up at the
Senate seats above you the entire time in your Yes
the Street episode seven, eight and nine are amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:18:36):
I loved them.

Speaker 8 (01:18:37):
I just want to you know, I just want to
come in here and make sure that we're not like
giving this show a free pass on everything.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
I remind me. You remind me of my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
You remind me of my friend's dad whose favorite show
is Breaking Bad, but he rewatches Breaking Bad by fast
forwarding all the domestic scenes and only watching the shoot incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
Beha, I do Skyler blah blah blah.

Speaker 7 (01:19:08):
I have been known to flight. I will watch Pacific
rim and just fast forward to the monster fights. So
that is that checks out.

Speaker 4 (01:19:23):
Basically, Aaron is just setting himself up for his inevitable
tofah grace style and or super Just like that's it.

Speaker 7 (01:19:33):
Like, what did we need the rest of it for?

Speaker 4 (01:19:35):
Well, honestly, I will say they said it was like
a movie, and us Joel said, one of the best
Do Wars movies we've ever seen is these three chapters.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Yeah, well, Emperor Aaron, it was delightful to have you
with us, the super producers of Boo and Joel as
well as always delightful to hear your perspectives. Coming up
on Extra Vision on Tuesday, we're diving into the last
of US episode five. On Wednesday, we have a recaps
of the series finale episodes of Landor, and of course

(01:20:03):
we returned to the roundtable on Friday for our deeper
reactions and conversations.

Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
Will Aaron who.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
Knows for this episode.

Speaker 3 (01:20:14):
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:20:21):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and
Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.

Speaker 4 (01:20:33):
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wax.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.

Speaker 4 (01:20:41):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our Discord moderate them