IT: Welcome To Derry, Episode 7 “The Black Spot” (with actor Chris Chalk)

To cover this week's penultimate episode of IT: Welcome To Derry, Jason brings in Scream Queen Joelle to recap episode 7 “The Black Spot”, then they invite the remaining Scream Queen, Carmen, to discuss, before Rosie finishes everything with a very exciting interview with the actor who plays Dick Hallorann that you won’t want to miss, Mr. Chris Chalk! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warning today's episode Candain spoilers for the seventh episode of it,
Welcome to Darry You Warning Hollo, my name is ju.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
No short cloud, I don't want to be here.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
And welcome back to want Twain.

Speaker 4 (00:38):
Between the podcast will be up to you betwere baby
Food Movies, cover Bob Company.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
We're here at iHeart where we're bringing three episodes a week,
plus news on Saturday, and folks, we're talking about it.

Speaker 5 (00:51):
In today's episode, we're recapping it Welcome to Dary one
oh seven. We're gonna bring Marmon in to complete the
screen Queen's later rosies assignment, but she'll be back later
to talk to Dick Haller and himself AKA and one
of the most delightful interviews in X ray vision to
hist y'all, if y'all don't love Chris Chalk now you'll

(01:12):
love him after this interview. It's so great. Before we
jump into our recap, we've got a quick reminder. We'll
have a couple of shorter stocking stuff for episodes for
you this holiday season to help you cover some more
fun topics we can't hit during the normal episodes. Keep
an eye out for them later this month.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
But first it Welcome to Derry. Okay, it Welcome to Darry.
Episode seven, we open with flashback to an og penny Wise,
the dancy clown at the carnival, and the kids love
penny Wise. He's got a very weird kind of vaudvillian

(01:54):
kind of performance. It goes lots of places. There's happiness,
there's sadness, there's a little scaredness. There's a beaver, there's dancing,
there's crying, there's the whole thing, and the audience loves it.
At a certain point, the kids like do a field
a pitch invasion of the stage and start ramp paging

(02:15):
around and Pennywise loses a wig and he has to
flee the stage. It's like a live action Gone Nuts.

Speaker 5 (02:22):
It's a live action Mooney Tune short, complete with like
a creature who's kind of investing with your main bugs
Bunny style character. You've got the flowers popping in and out.
There's a death, which again you know you're looking at
Great Depression era. The kids are probably personally familiar with
death in the middle of nowhere dairy with its hauntings
and creepy children coming from the forest, so you can

(02:44):
totally understand like the closeness and the connection these kids
have with and you. I don't know about you, but
I was like, do I love penny Wise? Like original
Pennywise is adorable, He's so sweet.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Good dad put it up.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Great guy. So Pennywise is in his trailer taking off
his makeup when his precocious daughter Ingrid comes in and
she is in her own clown makeup and costume which
he's been working on, and Dad is absolutely blown away.

(03:19):
He's like, you look so good. And he names her
Periwinkle the Clown, and that was apparently mom's clown name.
And you know, I don't know how that works in
clown culture, the passing of names, but certainly Ingrid is
thrilled at getting mom's old clown name. And they have
a little talk father daughter talk about the circus and

(03:41):
the big time, and Penny was.

Speaker 6 (03:42):
Oh, I missed the circus on the bin top and
the events, but one day I wouldn't be back there.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yes, I will.

Speaker 5 (03:50):
Do we think Pennywise had a drinking problem and got
kicked out of the circ Was there an accident that
killed his wife and that's why he's no longer at
the circus.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
That is the vibe that I got is mom passed
away because of some sort of penny Wise high jinks
and they were forced to leave, and now he's been
exiled to these kind of two bit traveling carnivals. Later on,
penny Wise is drinking outside when a mysterious boy comes
to the edge of the woods and is like and

(04:23):
starts with the real crazy intro line of the children
seem drawn to you, and penny Wise is like, hey,
this is normal. This is a normal conversation.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
It is the depression.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Kids are wandering around in the woods late at night,
and He's right. The kids absolutely love Pennywise and dance
a clown. And then the boy's like, well, by the way,
I need help finding my parents, so can you help
me out right now? And penny Wise is like, sorry, kid,
I'm looking for something in the bottom of this bottle.

(04:56):
And then all of a sudden there's the sound of
like like a woman screaming in the woods, and penny
was watch that, and the kid is like, that's my mother. No,
you help me, and Pty was like, I guess, yeah,
why not?

Speaker 7 (05:13):
So they don't.

Speaker 5 (05:15):
Behind you grab anyone additional way, yup, guys slinging hammers
building tenth. You get some strong men to come out
there with you. Just rolling solo is crazy.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Bad bad decision from the PC. PW Pennywise, PwC. Pennywise,
the clown, and long story short, he's never seen again.
Ingrid Like learns that her dad has disappeared into the
woods and all that was found is is like torn
up bloody handkerchief and they're like, that guy's fucking dead.

(05:46):
Sorry about it. We flash back to the present. The
lynch Bob is there at the Airman's club, but after
they try their full frontal like invasion right through the
front door with their guns and all the stuff, they realize, oh, yeah,
these are military guys, Like there's I don't know six
eight ten air Force guys here and they all have

(06:08):
guns too, So they retreat and when Hank tries to
surrender to the lynch Bob, the airmen are like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
were we have guns? It's fine, Like these guys are leaving.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
So they leave.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
But then from outside they opened fire and begin fire
bombing a club and it is chaotic. It is terrifying,
and a gun battle one way gun battle really kind
of ensues.

Speaker 5 (06:31):
Not to upit military branches against each other. But I
just feel like if this were the seals or on
the ground army never would have happened. They'd have been like, actually,
let's follow you out, make sure you get in your cars,
and let's not allow you to barricade us into this
place that has zero additional exits.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
What.

Speaker 5 (06:46):
Oh my gosh, I was dying a little bit. I
was like, this is this is thought Number one is like,
make sure they exit cleanly.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Everybody was really drunk. Is one thing? Like all the
decision making that is about to take place in this
fiery building will be questioned. We'll get to that in
a bit. So in the middle of this, the building's burning,
gun shots, people getting shot, screaming, et cetera. Dick starts.

(07:14):
The shining starts going crazy on Dick, and he sees
a black Union soldier walking through the flames towards a direction.
He follows basically where that Union soldier disappeared to, and
Dick finds in the floor like a tunnel. If he
busts through the floor, there's a tunnel that leads out
into the woods. So he breaks through the floor, and

(07:35):
then he also sees the war chief of Old the
original Native American war chief that originally fought and managed
to contain penny Wise back in the day, and he
calls to her. He's like, where are the kids? Where
are they? Show me where the kids are? In here
also roaming the fire by the way, Pennywise, penny Wise
is in there. He leads Noreene, one of the airmen's girlfriends,

(07:58):
away and eats her face. Ronnie sees this, and obviously
it's disgusting and terrible and really really bad. Pennywise then
mocks Dick and.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
Is like, oh, oh we shore, they're Dicky boy.

Speaker 6 (08:11):
Oh no.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
Dick sees just an army of dead people in the
flames shambling around. Meanwhile, Chief Bowers and the rest are
just like outside, and they're very satisfied with their work.
They love what they're seeing. Dick finds the kids, mainly Ronnie,
and Will specifically gets them a tunnel, gets them out,
but before he can rescue Richie and Marge, the wall

(08:35):
collapses and they're trapped on their own. Okay, folks, here
we go. Richie and Marge are like, what are we
gonna do? We're trapped in here. There doesn't seem to
be anybody left alive in this particular section of the building.
It's and Richie comes up with basically a reverse in
every single way, a reverse Titanic situation. Not only are

(08:58):
we instead of it's fire. Instead of on top of something,
it's inside of something. The only same thing is that
there's no room for Richie in this like cooler.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
That he puts, he puts Marget and Laude realizes that.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
She's getting locked in this thing, Like what Richie, No,
what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (09:19):
How dead?

Speaker 1 (09:20):
He's like, remember I told you? But remember the Knights,
the Knights and shining Armor. Well, uh, they don't just
you know whatever it else joust and stuff. They also
saved the princesses and fair maidens and that's you, and
you're stay safe in there, my sweet princess. I love
you so much. She actually says at first, like I

(09:43):
love you, and he's like, I love you back there.
You know, listen, I'm not going to question that part
of it. And then you know, Richie perishes the fucking flames.

Speaker 5 (09:53):
Outside of the status lover boy moves in the television
The sweet headed First of all, I don't believe couldn't
have knocked Richie off the top of that up. Sorry,
Richie is a lightweight, Marge. If you wanted to fight this,
you really could have.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
I have a lot of issues. I'm gonna save most
of them. I have a lot of issues with this.

Speaker 5 (10:11):
But I will say for the character if because I
have many issues and we will talk about them later.
But if we're just looking at like, here's this sweet
boy who's been so kind and sweet to literally everyone
he's met, who in this moment of and we've seen him,
you know, really sort of buy into these stereotypes of
like being like sort of the leader, the macho guy.
You know, he wants to be that, and so for

(10:34):
him to make this like it is the ultimate sacrifice,
and it is really beautiful and sweet. If I don't
think about it too long, if I just stay in
the moment, I'm like, my god, what a powerful sacrifice.
But I did not like this. Bring back Richie. He
was my favorite.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
And please, I'll just say listen, I think the and
the gesture is obviously so so sweet. Okay, but my
issue is, do you have that dog in you or not?
Why do you once you got her in the box,
Once you got her in the box, why you quitting?

(11:08):
Why you laying down on the job, find a fucking
way out of here. Okay, the princess is safe. That
buys you. Okay, you don't have to worry about that. Now,
wrap a shirt around your mouth or whatever and start
busting away out of here. Come on, give me a
why are you just quitting?

Speaker 5 (11:28):
He's read the novels and this is how they go. Okay,
you just.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Don't know those analogies.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
I just feel like, come on, man, you can't you
can't go anyway? All right? P Richie is done the
lynch Bob drives away, but Stanley, Ingrid's the butcher, Stanley
the stand the butcher, Ingrid's husband, her car, the car
won't start. And then all of a sudden, as he's
like trying to figure out what's wrong with the car,
who comes out of the woods. But it is Ingrid
in her full are you gonna go? Clown outfit? And

(12:01):
he's like, babe, what the fuck are literally? What the
fuck are you doing? I just committed mass race murder
and you're just like a fucking clown wandering out of
the woods. What like, go home, wash this fucking stuff
off and make me a sandwich?

Speaker 5 (12:17):
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
And then penny Wise appears behind Stan and cuts his
head in half and fucking and eats it. Ingrid is stunned,
but she also loves her father so much, so she's like, Dad,
I love it. Okay, like we're gonna have to figure
out how to deal with this, but like it's so
good to see you, and like, look at me. I'm

(12:39):
in the I'm in the costume. And he's like, give
me a bow, you know, just like in the flashback,
and she has her little trumpet. She does a little trumpet,
but little fanfare. He claps. Ingrid is like, Daddy's giving
me attention and giving me the gratification I need. I'm
so so happy, and she tells him she loves him,
and he says.

Speaker 6 (12:57):
Great, I'm going to sleep out because the cycles over
and all full and I'm full of kids and I'm
gonna go Betty bye for two decades plus.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
And she's like, don't you dare a better bet? And
this is when she realizes, apparently for the fucking first time,
that this is not her dad. It's it the entity Pennywise,
Like that's not Pennywise.

Speaker 5 (13:21):
When we jump back in time, the show needs to
explain how she got to this level of stupidity, dumb yes,
eating a head in front of you, and you're like,
I'm so glad daddy's back, ma'am, ma'am.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
But on top of that, this awful white bitch, she
she was like, here's.

Speaker 5 (13:42):
A place of safety around your your kid, like folks
who look like you, who will protect you, service members
who can who can actually know how to protect you
in this space. You'll be safe here. That runs back
home to what we presume to be an abusive husband.
And she's like, hey, babe, if you want to go
lynching tonight, do I have a tip for you?

Speaker 2 (14:01):
And then and then she waits in the woods in costume.

Speaker 5 (14:05):
Well, all of this happens for the chance to glimpse
her dead father, who was clearly not her father anymore. Uh,
dummy pitch Worg goes to her. I hate her so much.
I'm really she does. We'll some more about the fan
base and how they've reacted to this woman who from
get I've been like evil, evil, and I do feel
vindicated in all her actions. I was like, I was correct,
I was right. I have zero sympathy for you. You

(14:27):
get what you deserve in your old ass age, leave
us alone. What a horrible person.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
And she she watches Penny Wise eat her husband's head
on some like human head sashimi type shit, and it's
not and that's not. When she realizes that it's not.
Did you ever see your.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Dad do that?

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Okay, we were starving. It was the thirties, we ate
when we had to. Okay, the survivor here, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Anyway, so Penny Penny w c kicks her with the
big what I'm calling the big mouth ray and it
lifts Ingrid off her feet and leaves her in a
permanent state of intense stupid faction. Later, the first responders
find Marge alive in the box, which listen, I have questions.

(15:21):
I don't how like that was like hours in there
breathing a metal box in the fires. Okay, all right, yeah,
so props to her. Richie is dead right next to it.

(15:43):
The first responders come and I and like leave his
body there, like, so Marge cries over him. Ronnie and
Will who somehow are able to re access the burnt
out building.

Speaker 5 (15:59):
They should not be allowed in there, but they doll
you murders. Okay, the police were not shutting things down back.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
In the day all and they all cry over Rich's body,
and later we see stupefied and Grid being carted away.
Leroy and Charlotte arrive there, of course, beyond words that
Will is alive. Colonel calls Leroy over and they go
see Dick. Dick is fucked. He's deep in the shining shit,

(16:27):
seeing ghosts and dead people all over the all.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
His friends who just died are surrounding him. It's great.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
He can barely like maintain his grip on reality. Meanwhile,
Ronnie leads Charlotte out to the woods where Hank is hiding,
and Charlotte comes up with a plan that we will
see unfold. Dick tells the Colonel and Handland that yeah,
I can't feel the entity anymore. I think it's gone asleep.
I think it's gone cycle. We know the cycle's over,

(16:54):
but they don't necessarily know how it works. But the
General meanwhile wants an update on like whatever the fuck
it was that just happened. Dick says, well, listen, we
can tell the General we got good news.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Right.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
I went into the kid Daniel's head. I can locate
one of the pillars. I know exactly where that pillar
is we can go dig up that pillar and give
it to the General, and like he'll be happy with that,
I think, And you know, he just has to. He's
still seeing the Ghost War Chief, and apparently the Ghost
War Chief is going to be part of what leads
him to it. Leroy tells Charlotte take Hank back to

(17:29):
our house because it's you can't leave himut in the woods.
No one will look there. Everybody thinks he's burned up
and dead by now, So we got some time to
deal with I'm gonna deal with the clown, and then
we're leaving town immediately.

Speaker 5 (17:44):
We're the first anyone's had really.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Let's leave for a quick ad break and the way were.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
At break.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
And we're back in Derry. The radio station news is
absolutely delighted about the brutal race fire that recently went on.
They don't say that it was like a race riot
vigilante murder, but I think it's heavily suggested in the

(18:26):
details of the thing, and certainly everybody is delighted, I guess.
Small side note at the end of the news program
is like, sadly stand the butcher is dead, but also
hatchet Hank is dead, so go get them boys, congratulations
to those flames. At a meeting of the Native American community,

(18:47):
Rose basically tells everybody, well, it's asleep now, so we
can kind of chill for the next twenty seven years
or whatever it is. And then somebody's like, well, what
was the death toll? And she was like, seventeen kids
and twenty three others from the fire and other things,
not counting the soldiers. We think, so incredible numbers from

(19:10):
the PwC. Pettywise, the clown putting up major, major numbers
despite being like contained in zone defense by the Native Americans.
This guy is still going off for like almost fifty
a night. Unbelievable stuff. Meanwhile, new dig site from this
is from Dick's information about the pillar, and they've located

(19:32):
something they're not sure what it is at the handle
In's house. Charlotte puts Hank in LeRoy's uniform and is like, listen,
nobody in this town's gonna know the difference.

Speaker 5 (19:40):
Great fucking conversation. He's like, I look nothing like your husband.
She's like, Babe, don't wry about you're black.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
That's a big gotna know. And they're gonna, you know,
go to somebody who will help get him out of town,
and she's like, will you stay here till I get back?
He ain't gonna listen. Come on, what have we learned?
Nothing yet? Anyway, Fannie and Marge go to Lily's and
there there is an incredible shot of Lily zonked out

(20:07):
at the edge of her bed, just staring like into
the into the middle distance, into the light, and it
is a mirror image shot of Jack from the shining
sitting on the edge of his bed, just kind of
like staring at nothing. It is so well done. What
an easter egg. I loved seeing What are the.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
Chances we get Jack? And as we go back seasons
and seasons and we discover like the entity is what
has caused Jack to be this way. We know, we
know drinking. Jack does a lot of drinking. It seems
like we could be going there.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
They tell Lily basically about the fire and that yeah,
it was really crazy and sadly Richie died uh white
nighting March on the outside of an ice box. They
don't tell her that, but they don't tell her that,
get it. So they go to the clubhouse and their
first reaction is immediately pack up all his ship and

(21:06):
throw it out like that was weird, right, They just
start like gathering up all his stuff.

Speaker 5 (21:10):
Okay, so given that we've talked about about that space
being this very uncomfortable memorial for all of the children
Pennywise's killed over the years, and it says me like,
I'm not gonna leave you here amongst all the other
dead children, like, let me collect your thing. Maybe your
parents want it, maybe we can give it a proper burier.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
That that's weird.

Speaker 5 (21:27):
It's goofy up here. We gotta clear you out of
this space. I get that.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
I thought it was crazy that in their grief they
found immediately the motivation to get his shit up out
of there, just like, get the fuck action, get this
shit out of here. They find one of his little
planes and Marge cries, thinking like oh he never he
never managed to land one of the planes on the street,
and the girls embrace again. At the dig site, the

(21:54):
Air Force finds a tortoiseshell, inside of which is one
of the comic these pillars, So now they kind of
know what these things look like, right. The colonel takes
Leroy off mission, clearly trying to get him out of
the loop as quickly as pot. They just want him
out of the way now because something has clearly changed,
and we're going to find out that the general's goalposts

(22:14):
are moving quite rapidly now. So the official story is
we're going to analyze the pillar. But then the Colonel's
like Leroy Handlin is like, well, wait a second, doesn't
this mean that the thing can escape now, because like
its enclosure is missing.

Speaker 5 (22:30):
Yes, he we.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Immediately, shouldn't we immediately go back to the sewers and
like try and kill it, like what and finish this?
Like what are we doing? And they're like they, yeah,
you're thinking too much about it. Go home, have like
a sandwich and some ice cream and don't worry about it.
We'll call you, don't call us. Charlotte goes to see Rose,
and that's who's going to help with Hank. She's quite

(22:54):
eager to help. They want to get Hank over the
border so he can start a new life. They got
a person over there who's going to do like papers
and the whole thing, and and it's in that time
that one of Rose's people comes and it's like the
air Force discovered the pillar, so now she knows about it.
The air force takes the pillar to a big hangar
where the I guess Leroy wonders they're gonna study it maybe,

(23:18):
but like it's clear they're going to destroy it. They're
gonna put it in like a kiln with hot coals
and melt it down so that it can't I guess,
constrain the entity anymore. So Leroy pulls a gun out
and he's like, don't do that, give me the thing,
give me the pillar. I'm leaving. And then the General's like, oh, Leroy,

(23:39):
and he gets on the mic and it's like, literally,
hold on, let let let's talk about this. Come up here,
and I got to talk to you about I'll let
you know now what's really going on. So what really
going on is the General's like, okay, we're not putting
the entity in a missile anymore. We're gonna use the
entity here at home because there's too many hippies come.
The hippies haven't really arrive. But like he's I can

(24:01):
send him. He's gonna be.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
On the horizon. It's terrified.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
He's in lover coming. Civil rights people are coming, the
nuclear protesters are coming, and with these kind of schisms
in society we're not gonna be able to meet the
ultimate thread of the Russians. And one thing that makes
people all fall in line is fear, which the entity

(24:26):
can give us. So like we're gonna use the entity
to get complete control of society. Don't you feel bad, Leroy?

Speaker 4 (24:32):
That's good, right?

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Don't you feel better now?

Speaker 5 (24:35):
Bitch awards this season? What are you thinking, sir?

Speaker 1 (24:40):
You fool?

Speaker 5 (24:41):
Like this show is such an interesting statement on like
what is fear and where does it reside? And I
think the General, despite being a top marking control of
the army, has no actual uh interaction with genuine fear
because fear does not help people fall in line, Like

(25:01):
fear is a chaos agent, like people will do anything
to survive. When you are genuinely terror like specifically terrified,
your brain does not think like in at its highest
capacity anymore, Like your ability to speak is I think,
is greatly diminished. Your ability to think cognitively is greatly diminished.
So like saying you're gonna release fear across the state,

(25:22):
like this is going to have the exact opposite effect.
Do you want? And I think anyone with any kind
of connection to like I don't know battle would know
that this is a very weird approach. I don't understand it.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
So Leroy is like, well, you know what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna snitch you out. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell
what you're doing here, and he pulls out a gun.
But then the colonel pulls a gun on him, and
then the general is like, ha ha, I got you. Now,
put the pillar in the thing. Put the pillar in

(25:53):
the It just melted down. Melt it down. It gets melted,
and you know it is down in the sewer. We
see him kind of sleeping, but then he wakes up
and he realized, oh shit, the juice is loose. Like
I'm loose. I'm out here. I can go anywhere I want.
And the first place he goes is to Will's house.
Will's there. He answers the phone and it's Ronnie and

(26:15):
she's upset about Ritchie and she's telling Hi about Richie
and when she misses him and how she'll miss the
way his like skin got all like crinkly as the
fire roasted him alive, and then then the flames took
him and he turned into delicious like roast human meat.
And then Will's like, what the fuck? And he realizes

(26:36):
it's the clown. And then Will's like, yeah, well, guess what.
I know that you eat fear and I'm not scared
of you anymore. And then penny Wise is like, boot
scared of me now, and penny Wise is there in
the kitchen behind him covered in blood, Oh my god, disgusting.
Will turns around and penny Wise hits him with that

(26:56):
with that mouthbeam, and poor Will is I guess gonna
be stupefied and stunned. Let's take a quick break and
discuss this episode. We're back. Let's talk about it.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
Harmen.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
First, Let's bring in the other half of the screen
prints Carmen, Karmen.

Speaker 8 (27:28):
Welcome, ah, hello, call it. Your thoughts of this episode
very exciting. I have my initial thoughts on this episode
was it was hard to watch. I did feel like
the particular scene with the black spot fire, yeah, I was.
I felt like very long. I felt like in particular
like the suffering felt like it lasted a very long time.

(27:51):
And of course you're just like, come on, Ritchie, my guy, like, no,
you're gonna kill yourself for your first love. I think
he had who just no will to live? He had,
he must have had nothing to live, nothing to live
for how I feel.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, I agree too, because if he had any kind
of fight in him, Yeah, if you had any kind
of satisfaction with his life or thought of like listen,
you're just trying to get somewhere with Marge now, like
futures looking bright.

Speaker 8 (28:20):
You're small getting there together.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
I don't know, like why are we why are we
giving it all up right now?

Speaker 5 (28:29):
There's ay in the fact that there's no panic in
his fac Like on the one hand, you're like, Wow,
what a brave little soul like boy, we love him.
But on the other hand, if you think about a
ten year old trapped in a fire like panic, either
you exactly, there's there's either the panic off I'm like,
I'm running through the flame trying to find an out,

(28:50):
or the I can't move and I'm I'm sitting still here.
But but we haven't even Yeah, and it was it
was a little too at peace. You were like, wait,
I mean.

Speaker 8 (29:02):
A full life. You know, he had met everyone on
his bucket list. You know, he had done everything he'd
ever wanted to do, like, and he was at peace.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
My my thing is and this is why I'm like, Richie,
you got to make I don't want to speak ill
of the dead, but I think we need better decision
making here. First of all, the White Night speech he
had that, you know he'd been pa in the bathroom
mirror because.

Speaker 5 (29:32):
He had that.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
He had that teed up ready to drop the needle
right on it, and Marge's in there like, and he's like,
you know, remember what I said about knights, And she
was like, are you talking about And then he goes
into that listen, I agree with you. For a ten

(29:56):
year old to like not, he the only thing he
was worried about was getting to the end of that
little speech. He couldn't. Yes, yes, he was not worried
about the flames. He was just like, let me say
my peace and then and then you will never forget Richie,

(30:16):
let me tell you that. And I'm just like, I
just think there was you got her in the box.
I know I said it before you got her in
the box. Go get one of these logs that fell
and bust.

Speaker 5 (30:26):
Through this wall.

Speaker 8 (30:28):
Yeah, there's a blanket back there, isn't there.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 8 (30:31):
Come on, there's got to be a.

Speaker 5 (30:34):
Will to live outside of it's outside of the horror
of the episode from a performance that kid nailed that speech,
though I was crying, like, come on, that's a difficult
speech to pull off, I think for any performer, and
I thought he nailed it.

Speaker 8 (30:52):
Yeah, the child, the child actors and the show have
continued to be amazing, but we continue to lose them,
you know.

Speaker 5 (30:58):
And so we said everyone was gonna die at this
time when we were making picture about who's going to
see the end of this, and we Jason did call you,
was like Richie's death number one, it's happening.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
He's going to you.

Speaker 5 (31:11):
Anyways. We know Will survives, but what is surviv will
really look like for Will after what we've seeing here,
I do think we're gonna lose Lily. And I don't
know if I think Marge escapes and it's gonna make
me so angry.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
I think she.

Speaker 5 (31:29):
Loses her eye and they're like, that's enough on Marge,
and no it's not. I really Lily will to be
okay at this point. Oh and my girl, Uh.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Ronnie, Ronnie, thank you Ronnie.

Speaker 5 (31:44):
We haven't seen enough of Ronnie in this last episode.
That made me very nervous. It made her feel expendable
and I think she will.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
I think she'll get out of town, right, She'll she'll
go with Ank to Canada. She'll be Okay, yeah, let's
talk about the penny Wise of it all. So okay,
I guess this pennise that penny Wise is no longer
is no longer bound. I'm a little confused as to

(32:13):
how the cycle interacts with the pen the pen of comet. Right,
so clearly he can he can wake up from his
nap and do stuff. But does that mean the cycle
is still going to be happening just now he can
roam free.

Speaker 5 (32:32):
I think yes. Here's I tend to think about it
as sort of like a more relaxed hibernation now, and
that penny Wise is no longer like he's not confined
to this space after the deaths, so he can wake up,
move around. But you know, he's he's still full, he
still had all of his meals. He's sluggish, he's not
quite awake, so it'll still take him until they But

(32:55):
I think we do see an increase in like violence
and activity, but between the times, that's what it seems
to be like when we start in the eighties, Like
if you think about the hostility of the town.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Now.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yeah, like when we enter Dary in this TV series,
it's hostile, but it's kind of contained. Oh the kids
are fighting, let them be boys. Oh there's racism, but
it's America, and what are you gonna do? Right? Yeah,
by the time we get there in the eighties, it's
like everybody is constantly on edge. All of the parents
are outwardly consistently awful all of the time. There doesn't
seem to be kind of any like normalcy breaks in it.

(33:29):
And so that's what I think. I think Pennywise is
like a serial killer who's amping up now.

Speaker 8 (33:34):
Just building building his energy.

Speaker 5 (33:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (33:37):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And
also it feels like he's only able to do so
much before he expends all of his energy and then
you know, Okay, now I've done too much. It's time
for me to like go rest and take my bloodbath.

Speaker 5 (33:55):
Yeah, which I really that shot of penny Wise is
a top tier for me. It's like him with Georgie
and the sewer is a top one. And then this
even on the fridge was really we got some really
great creepy Pennywise.

Speaker 8 (34:08):
I was going to say a top for me was
the shot the Kubrick Stare at the beginning where we
see the actual entity it looking that it's time to
consume Pennywise the clown, and I do love getting kind
of the lore thereof Basically we learned that it is
only able to take the forms of things that it

(34:28):
has previously consumed, I'm guessing, and so I love that
it loves penny Wise as its favorite form.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Well, I think you know that the really creepy line
from that little kid who was you know, who was it?
When came out of the woods and talked to the
original human Pennywise and said, well, the children really seem
to love you. It's clearly a bid to make it
both easier to a the attention of kids but also

(35:01):
scarier for when he does turn. I think that's something, yes,
the entity loves. And I was also wondering about you
know Ingrid is around. Of course it hit the movies
and so and then it does take her form at
a certain point. So it's unclear of just how long

(35:24):
she or it had been coexisting in that way, but
it'll be interesting to see, Like, do you think that
whatever happened after the mouthbeam is that just is that
it or you just like comatose now for years or whatever,
or will there be a way out of it? Like
is that it for Will?

Speaker 5 (35:45):
I think this is more about implanting the fear. I'm
gonna go back to it. We saw an early version
of Margin. She's walking down the hallway and it's the
first time we see Rich see her, and we get
the little bit of like penny wise eye glare in
her glasses. Oh yeah, Pennywise consumes you mentally before he

(36:06):
consumes you physically. And I think because he's catching Will
at such an intense moment of terror and and Ingrid
as well. If you think about like if she's really
just coming online and it's like, oh, this is not
my father at all, Like that's probably a horrifying realization
to like confront what you're actually.

Speaker 8 (36:24):
Up, Like, ye, okay, can we talk about that part
of it, because that is the that's kind that's always like, oh, really,
we didn't know that, you know that the character with
a mustache on was this character with you know with
that It's like, come on, lady, but I'm wondering what

(36:44):
is that going on there? She just has she gone
so insane and she's so traumatized from all of this,
that like she's willing to believe whatever.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Whatever.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, my my read on it was that her father's
disappearance was extremely true monetizing, coming this, coming on the
heels of whatever had happened to her mom, and that
clearly the grief had eaten her up to a degree

(37:15):
that she would do anything to get see her father again.
And I think maybe there's you know, there's I think
probably a likelihood that it Pennywise the clown, the new
Pennywise PwC since that grief and longing and hollowed out,

(37:36):
you know, hollowed out soul of hers and was able
to exacerbate that situation to use her as a lure
for kids, which clearly was happening for a while. So
I think that he helped amplify this.

Speaker 5 (37:51):
I agree. Okay, So a couple of things. One, she's
abandoned at the circus at eleven in the middle of
the thirties. That's a terrible time to be abandoned at eleven. Yeah,
not good. Not try to give you anything. You're uh,
you're pretty far east, so you're away from the dustbel
but you are impacted financially. It's just it's it's gonna
be a messy, difficult time for her to come up,

(38:11):
and we see what kind of relationship she ends up
in her adulthood. So it's like the amount of trauma
and survival she's had to do is quite a lot.
We know that's a draw for penny Wise. We also
have that really interesting conversation before she again turns on
as like oh you're not my dad, where she was like,
did I do a good job? It's not the first
time she's lured people for penny Wise. She had no

(38:34):
problem taking a little girl down to a creepy basement
of an asylum to be consumed and eaten, and she
sensibly watched that happen through the door. So she it's
interesting to me, like, how much of this did you think?
Like my father needed to be murderous? And I have
no problem helping him do that? Right because why or
had Pennywise already gotten to her? She's a little like

(38:57):
offline sort of, uh, you know Mike was possessed by
penny Wise? Can he you know? As the endit as
we've seen the shining sort of have impact on folks
from a difference, Is it the same thing I'm not
one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
We know that we're alone.

Speaker 5 (39:12):
Before she grabbed him, He's like, I'm gonna go to sleep,
But you did good. Great job kid. He was like, yes,
we could have a symbiotic relationship going forward. So I
don't know, Carmen, I hope we get some more concrete
answers on that in the final episode.

Speaker 8 (39:25):
But yeah, basically, Ingrid, she should have been in the
institution the whole time herself, a long time ago.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, so the people running it definitely needed to be
impacted into it because she again she has no how
does she cover up the death in the basement, Like,
I have a lot of questions, right, how Ingrid has
been getting away with the Shenanigans.

Speaker 8 (39:41):
We know that, Uh, it seems that it is able
to infect people's brains by being in the drinking water
with its doo doo as far as far as.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
We've seen, we're drinking his duty and that's that's how
he's able to do it. Here's my thing, Okay, so
you know this is it and it Welcome to darry Are.
Largely they're like a Kaiju movie in that the Kaiju

(40:17):
is not often the actual bad, right. I think the
bad guy is the General. So my question to you,
and like this is, if we're following the kind of
horror movie formula, general got to come to about it,
like he gotta die at the end.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
He's die.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
The question is, and it's gotta be Pennywise doing the
Tashimi number on his on his face. But the question
is how I feel like that will happen? To agree
or disagree?

Speaker 5 (40:49):
Agree entirely.

Speaker 8 (40:52):
I'm Stiller and I'll make it quick here. But I
personally am just waiting for the the atomic bomb it
all to come into play. And so I would love
us to see some like cartoon anvil version of just
like an atomic bomb being dropped on this guy's head.
But that's my that's my dream for what that could

(41:15):
be a really.

Speaker 5 (41:16):
Fun uh kubrick esque like montage or montage, but like
like owed to Kubrick with the atomic bomb at the end.
Get someone on a cowboy with a cowboy hat on
a bomb or something. Let's make it work. Here's what
I would like to see happen. I feel like the
General is acting without the authority of his superiors. I
feel like he is most definitely rogue nation out here,

(41:39):
and so it would be interesting to see come in
and be like, I'm sorry, what is the plan? Absolutely
not for the government.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
They need to be afraid so they listen. You get
it right page No. So yeah, that.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
And I think because we've seen our big disaster, Like
I'm wondering, you guys know how I feel about a
penultimate episode. That's where your action is. You want to
use your next episode to set up your at tension
for the next season. So we had our big action
sequence with the fire. I'm curious to see, like what
are both the ramifications for our leftover parties, Like Charlotte

(42:22):
has to do something major. She's been spending this whole
time sort of talking about revolution and not really wanting
to be here. Now her kid's in trouble, her man
is definitely in trouble, Like I need to see Charlotte,
hopefully not too superwomany because we know how they be
dealing with black women. But also, if you look at
the posters, it kind of sent her Charlotte as like
your main protagonist, Like she's closest in the foreground of

(42:45):
most of the posters. She's looking back at the camera
where her husband and son are looking forward, and so
I think like we're gonna see her blossom into her
full potential, and I'm very excited about that. I'm also
excited to see what is any little springlings we get
about the next season. I cannot believe we're gonna go
back in time, and I think how they build that up,

(43:07):
both our anticipation for going back, but also the lingering results,
like what hasn't been wrapped up from this coming season
that happens previously. It's like a real kind of time fuck.
But I think the Mushi Eddies can nail it, So
I'm excited to see that. What are you hoping for
in the finale, Jason, I am hoping for.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
A moment in which the General says, let me talk
to the club some buddy, here's well and he and
he basically is like, you know, gives him the whole.
I'm the General and uh, and listen, we're gonna let
you eat kids. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be

(43:45):
a great situation for followers. You're gonna love it. We
got listen, we got commies, we got protests, we got ampies.
I need you to eat them, okay, And you're gonna
get to eat lots of people, but the people, and
at which point it turns around and eats the general.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
That's okay, yeah, yeah yeah. What about you, Karma? What
do you need out of the finale?

Speaker 8 (44:09):
I need to see Charlotte get across the border with Leroy.
I need to know that Leroy and Ronnie are made
safe across the border. We don't have to worry about them.
We go back in time. I have to see where
the uh where the sewer where? Who's building the sewers?

(44:30):
What's the story of the sewers? Are we gonna get this?
What's how? How did we bid? How did he find
the sewers? You know, I just got to know because
that is so very fascinating. There's all that water. Everybody
in town is using that for all their business number

(44:50):
one and number two. And you mean to tell me
that people's toilets are not overflowing, And well, I guess
they are, but come on, we got I have some
plumbing problems, so I want to know what's going on
down there on the sewers.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
That's a good point. And now I also am wondering.
I know we had talked a little bit about like, okay,
if the prison is disrupted and penny Wise is out, Like,
what is this time between now and the eighties when
the movies happens. Yeah, look like I'm wondering now too.
We know that Lily has a shard of uh like
whatever keeps the entity at bay. All we gotta do

(45:26):
is put that back into turtle shells and bury it. Right?
Is the prison reformed? Do we see Lily team up
with Rose and they kind of put this thing back together?
I would be okay with this, maybe, I think, Or
does he need to? No? Yes, I think I do
need to see the prison made whole. I'm gonna I'm
gonna go back on my original because a while I
do like an amped up penny Wise, I think letting

(45:48):
him roam so free makes It's making less sense to
me the more I think about it. So kind of
hoping we see the prison put back together.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
I do wonder as well, because like, why hasn't he
spread then beyond dry? And why does Darry? Why do
the memory effects only seem to happen around Darry. We're
gonna find out more about it, I hope. So.

Speaker 8 (46:11):
I think it's got to do with the water management system.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
It's all that poop it's all that. It's all that anyways, poop. Well,
let's take a quick break and then're going back with
our interview with Chris Chalk plays Dick Calerin in it.
Welcome to Darry. You're gonna want to hear this. And

(46:42):
we're back now we're going to play Rosie's interview with
the great Chris Chalk plays Dick Calerin in it. Welcome
to Darry. Chris.

Speaker 9 (46:51):
Thank you so much for joining me today on x
ray Vision. I appreciate you taking the time.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Thank you for having me on x ray Vision.

Speaker 9 (47:02):
Yeah, we are huge fans of the show, huge fans
of you.

Speaker 7 (47:05):
Obviously, this is a nerd podcast, so we're the kind
of people who knew exactly who Lucius was when that
role was cast. But how did Dick Calarin into your life?

Speaker 3 (47:20):
First time I met Dick Hallerine was watching The Shining.
Second time was reading the book The Shining, not remembering
any of that. To be on, I remember the movie
more than the book at that point before I booked it.
Then I was in la and I hadn't worked in
a while, and I was getting irritated, and I got

(47:43):
a call from casting to come in and read this part,
and I read the script and thought, well, I saw
the name and thought, this is cool, Like, I know
who Dick halerin isles. Let's see what these words are.
I saw the words, loved the words. It was the scene.
I know it was more than this, but the one
I remember the most is him talking to Leroy about

(48:08):
Dick talking to Leroy about his the cost of the powers,
and I just really resonated with the vulnerability. I'm like
a vulnerability guru. I just think it's everything. We should
all just be striving to be vulnerable. So too, while
being at this stage of my personal life of thinking this,

(48:29):
getting a character who's I know is going to do
this kind of material was interesting. And then once you
get the scripts as we're going and seeing that Dick
Helenon is only about vulnerability. In fact, this poor guy
is like afraid wire. This guy's a mess, and I
like that he comes in so confident and bored, and

(48:49):
then he's.

Speaker 7 (48:52):
I'm really glad that you bought that up because something
that I a this is an incredible episode me and
incredible producer Joe Well.

Speaker 9 (49:00):
She's part of our scream Queen's crew.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
We love horror.

Speaker 9 (49:04):
We were talking about.

Speaker 7 (49:04):
It's such a just devastating episode, and there's so many
different complexities and layers in it, and it's all really
been leading.

Speaker 9 (49:14):
To this moment, and there is so much there to
pick apart.

Speaker 7 (49:17):
But the first thing I want to say is I'm
glad you brought that up about Dick's confidence, because like
that moment, we've seen so much of Dick struggling, so
much of the box being opened, so much of him
having to deal with this power and deal with being
exploited by the government, but we've rarely gotten to see
the charm and the hey, I can fix everything, don't
worry about it.

Speaker 9 (49:39):
When he walks out into the club. You absolutely brought that.

Speaker 7 (49:44):
So could you talk a little bit about that moment,
because it's kind of this tipping point where it feels
like Dick's actually going to save the day.

Speaker 9 (49:49):
And not with the shining, just with being himself.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
I think Dick's entire objective once he gets caught by
the government the entity of the government, is to find
his peace. And the last time he felt his piece
was in New Orleans, cooking, hanging out with the fellas,
pretty girls around loud music, and those are the things
that I decided keep the fear and keep the triggers away.

(50:18):
So after this huge moment of being at his most vulnerable,
that he knows being at the most vulnerable of his
life thus far, with the box open, he found he
can still hold on to hope. It's like crossing his
fingers hold on to hope when he walks into that
space and go, wait, this is I built this safety.
We're safe. This thing has never nothing's ever happened here

(50:41):
this place. I got this for the Fellas, so the
Fellas are here. It's loud enough, even though I'm a
little drunker than I would like to be, but I'm
still working on this. This thing it feels it's I
think it's like the one of the few moments he
feels good after episode three. Yeah, and in fact, it
might be one of the only moments that feels like, oh,
there's a reason to live for Dick. And I think

(51:05):
that also encourages that that's a necessary light because if
it had gone from that walk into the black spot
fire mm hmmm, he left no way gone. But to
get that little dopamin feedback of thank goodness, there is
this is nice. Not everybody's thoughts are bad. Not everybody's
trying to kill me. This is great.

Speaker 7 (51:27):
What does it feel like for you as a performer
inhabiting that character and kind of having to deal with
the dramatic irony of like, you know where it's going.
You know that that moment of hope is going to
be followed by the greatest hopelessness and horror that he
can imagine? How do you keep true to the hope

(51:50):
while knowing what comes next and allowing yourself to prepare
yourself for that massive amount of vulnerability.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
That that takes.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
On the other side of this, you build all the
hope in the world. You make him the happiest he's
ever been. You make him so happy he's never seen
this joy in his life, because it's that much more
fun when he gets the carpet rit from underneath him.
I think some of that is part of the dramaturgy
and script development of going how much can I get

(52:17):
away with giving the audience something and then taking it
away from them based on, of course the script not
trying to add too much, but and that is a
that was a like a layup they gave it to me,
Like how happy can he get really quickly? Just before
the worst, the next worst thing that has ever happened

(52:39):
to him happens, and then it's just this, like falling
down a broken ladder of hitting his head over and
over again, like it's worse. Wait, it's worse than this.
It's somehow worse than this. Why am I alive? Mm hmm.

Speaker 7 (52:53):
But I would also argue, you know, he also gets
in that moment as we explore that scenery to allow
himself to connect back with the power for something incredible,
which is to save the kids, which adds that level
of the hope. So could you talk a little bit
about what that moment means for Dick after shutting that
away for so long, actually making that choice in that moment.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
I think as soon as Dick makes that choice, he
thinks it's a fool's there, and he thinks he's an asshole.
He thinks he's an asshole. He's like, what am I doing?
Fuck these kids?

Speaker 5 (53:27):
You know?

Speaker 3 (53:28):
And I think he is so busy surviving that his
truth comes out and he happens to be learning it
at the same time as the audience. I don't think
it's hope when he saves those kids, it's instinct. It's
the promise to Hank, like I'll get the kids, just
go It's the if I don't save this kid one.
If I let Hank go in and save the kid

(53:50):
and something happens to him, I lose Charlotte, I lose Will,
I lose Leroy. And that is the only thing I think, Dick,
that's where the hope is that in the concept of
family and love. So there's something about if that kid

(54:11):
was older, maybe not, maybe not, that was like fifteen,
it's like a good luck, Kiddle.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
Good job you can you can figure it out, You'll
be okay, don't worry about it.

Speaker 7 (54:24):
So one of the things that I've really loved in
this iteration of Dick and of the Shining and of
the kind of King universe as well, is it is
just the thoughtful space that having a TV show give.
So you and Jovan have been able to with Lee worry.
Like that conversation you guys have where you talk about

(54:46):
the Shining for the first time in your powers and
his response is yeah, everyone could do that, Like everyone
knows someone who could do that. There's such like a
natural feeling to the way that we're talking about these
things that, while in the show are treated as supernatural,
do come from places of law and oral storytelling and
even depending on what people believe powers. So and you

(55:06):
actually spoke to like real practitioners, right, mister my circle,
Could you talk a little bit about why that was
so important, because I think it is adding a lot
that we've never really gotten to see before.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
I think, Okay, how do I want to get into that.
We very much believe in magic in my house because
my people are You can still see American slavery on
my family, and I know that a lot of the
survival of slavery was witchcraft or things we would demonize

(55:40):
or call witchcraft. And I believe that there are many
many things we can call it science. We can call
it whatever we want that we don't understand, and we
love to pretend we do, but we don't.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
We don't know anything.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
Ask me how to make water, I can't do it.
And so and then having I remember when we went
to South Africa, we went to a same goma. We
tend to like, why not try everything on Earth at
least twice. First time, it's too scary, so it doesn't count.

(56:14):
But the second time you might find a great discovery.
But we've had mediums after parents died, We've had We
went to the Hoodoo Fest in New Orleans in twenty
twenty five to look at like African traditional religions and
the magic of that. And because I know that those

(56:35):
things are real to someone, anyone, I have to honor it.
And if I can find a way to make every
moment a human moment, then I don't have to play pretend.
I can just exist. And so watching those people, interviewing
those people talking, especially the Hudu vest, was very interesting

(56:55):
because I learned more than I That's the most I'd
ever learned. I'd never been just for four days in
a space about that. My wife is an herbalist and
so in addition to being a filmmaker.

Speaker 9 (57:05):
Yeah, and all of further multi talented.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
I mean, she's pretty, she's pretty thirdly talented. People are like, oh, Chris,
she's so lucky.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
I'm like, like, we love a wife shower on here,
so you can.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
I mean, I'm the lucky bozo over here. I'm like,
she does all the things I do. Two of them, guys,
catch up.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Catch up.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
It's a misogynist world that ain't got nothing to do
with skill. But because I honor my wife. I honor
our habit full of herbs, and magic is real, it's
real self real. They helped my wife sendometriosis when medicine didn't.

Speaker 7 (57:43):
I have I have cornic health issues, and abolism is
one of the things that works, you know.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
And so I very much believe in not just using
the magic that people tell me exists, but finding the
magic that is their bolting and honoring the people and
honestly honoring the fact that that is a real thing.
And that is part of being an African American human
being in America is that these were things that were

(58:09):
used to heal and to hide and to protect. And
that made it easy to approach Dick because it's like, well,
it seems mysticism to everyone else is like this crazy thing.
But you have to learn how to drive a car
if your character drives a car. They got to learn
how to you know, plant a tree, if your character
plants a tree. And that was it was just honoring

(58:32):
what is the truthful version of this? And then how
can I add the parts of this that I I
don't have a reference for.

Speaker 9 (58:39):
Yeah, I love that, and I love that.

Speaker 7 (58:43):
Part of that has been this relationship between Leroy and
Dick and these two black men who do get to
have this kind of burgeoning friendship and also get to
experience like the what the fuck of it all together,
because often it's like the one person who has to
deal with it and they're by themselves. Could you talk
about you guys getting to reunite on this project and

(59:03):
kind of what it's been like for you guys to
come together and work and build this really important relationship
within this universe that we've really never seen before.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I smile big because I love Jovon and it took
a lot to make him love me.

Speaker 4 (59:23):
I don't believe it.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
It's well because he's an introvert, like I'm an ambrovert,
So like I understood, I was like, ah, he needs
he he's not social. This kid is very like to himself.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
And so.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
When I booked it, I remember driving from a from
A Tofu place that was so good. I can't remember
the name of him. It was so good. It's in
It's in Korea town. It was unbelievable, And Jovon calls
me and he says, hey, dude, what are you doing
next summer? And that's when I just learned. When I'm
book I booked it, and what I'm doing, I said,

(01:00:01):
because you can't tell anybody. Yeah, weird question, but you know,
I'm just don't worry about it. I'm doing a short film.
Can I get you to be in my short film?
Because I know because I respect it, He does all
this this shit because I respect you, and you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Know, we're wanting to work together.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
And I was like, dog, I would love to, but
I just booked something and it gives me the run
around and then eventually goes, I know, dog, I'm in
it too. And ever since that moment, I've been so
happy that because Joe Run we came, We've done the
same role, you know, and I actually was up for

(01:00:41):
and when they see us, I was up for the
role that he booked, but I didn't have time to
do that role. So it's like we have so much crossover.
And he likes to make fun of me because he's
obviously in the Fences that people watched.

Speaker 7 (01:00:54):
I was gonna be like, I was gonna be like,
how you guys, is the Fences thing still a beef?

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
You guys?

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
It's really you did the real Corey Maxon.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
I mean, like we did have a moment on set
where this kid came up to him and effusively told
him he was amazing as Corey Maxon and then he
and Jovon looks at me. It kind of looks because
he's bigger than me, looks down at me and goes, ah,
the kids like me.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
The Corey multivius. It's good.

Speaker 7 (01:01:25):
Well, what's it been like to get to bring that
to this relationship? I'm assuming helpful because these two are
two very different characters in the show. They have a journey,
but there has to be a quick ease for the
story to work.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Jovon and I get Eventually. I had to move around
a lot in Toronto because I'm just like that space
is important for me. So eventually I ended up moving
to It's funny. I lived in Stephen's neighborhood and we
hung out every day. And then I left Stephen's neighborhood
and he was so set, but I moved half a
block from Jovon. Oh wow, knock on his window. You
want to make Jovon mad on his window and get

(01:02:02):
his dog riled up. I knock on his I go
to the window and scream Luke, that's his dog's name,
And Luke would get riled up, and then Jovon would say, bro,
I'm not home. You're getting my dog agitated. You got
to stop. And he used to close his windows because
he knew I was gonna come by. I used to
take pictures. I would drive my homeboy's house or walk

(01:02:22):
by and just do like videos. I'm watching you, Joe.
And that led to Jovon being a little more comfortable,
a little more social. Now we talk every single day.
I love him so much. I can't even be objective
with him anymore, because like I love him, I like
I can see his beautiful little heart and his great intention,

(01:02:43):
and he's constantly trying to get better. And he know
he came into this industry with so much fortune and
from such a different angle than say like a me
and a jove On I'm sorry, me and a Steph
who did training in theater, and like we've been and
he has such a respect for his way of coming
in and our way of coming in, and we were
able to like be verily. I mean, like, I'm not

(01:03:06):
super egotistical anyway, but neither is he. So it was
very easy. Once I stopped getting on his nerves to
walk around. We would go to Trinity Bellwood's Park and
just walk and then Steph would come hang out with
us and we walked. One time we walked and got
lost and we walked like three miles. I was so irritated.
And that connection allowed us to be able to ask

(01:03:28):
for help. Yeah, and we walk around and do the
lines for our scene because Andy can be so visual.
So in days that we knew it's gonna be heavy visuals,
we were like, let's go do the emotional work. Let's
go so that we're prepared. Let us go and do
our job. You know, we know it's tomorrow. Let's prepare
for what's tomorrow in the fullest way possible. And to

(01:03:48):
be able to have someone who can kind of in
a in an egoless way, go, yeah, we should, We
really should go do that because it's what else are
we doing. Yeah, that's the whole point. That's why we're
here in Toronto shooting the thing. Why not use all
this time we can to connect and make the show
as good as possible. And I do think we did
our very best at that and I love actually at

(01:04:11):
the beginning, we didn't hang out a lot.

Speaker 9 (01:04:12):
And you can tell, yeah, you could tell you, but
it makes sense, and I love that kind of suits
the characters.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
Also, I loved it.

Speaker 9 (01:04:18):
You were like, I can't be objective because you know,
I love him and I know him.

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
I can't be.

Speaker 7 (01:04:22):
Objective because I saw Overlord when I like first ever
moved here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
And I was like, I was like a star.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
I literally show dude.

Speaker 7 (01:04:29):
I wrote an article about that movie basically being like,
this is the best Captain America movie we will never
get and Jovan is the best Steve Rodgers and we
have been blessed and I love this and it's incredible
and it was so deep and yeah, he's amazing, and
I'm so glad you guys got to work on it
together because it's so fun. And this is also like

(01:04:49):
going back to just for you, though you do obviously
have your crew and stuff, this is like a very
storied role. You are in kind of a different situation
because with Dick, we're coming into this show and he's
been played by you know, Melvin Van Peebles, Scatman Carrathers,
Carl Lumley, another favorite iconic Captain America actor. Like, what

(01:05:11):
does that feel like to get to add so much?
Because you really are getting to add a lot more
about what we know about Dick and how his powers work.
How does it get to feel to add that and
be in collaboration with those actors who brought him luck
to life before I could.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
I got chills just now when you ask that question,
because it's like a thing that shouldn't be important. It's
pretty cool. It's a thing that's like I don't want
to add value to for my own mental health. That
when someone that like someone said this, they said, You're
going to be the reason someone watches the Shining True.

(01:05:48):
I almost cried, dude, yeah, I because I didn't think
about it that way.

Speaker 8 (01:05:54):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
I usually try not to attach to what the public
is because I don't want to get I don't want
to get excited. I've gotten excited a lot and been like, oh,
I was too attached to that.

Speaker 5 (01:06:06):
That didn't work out the way I thought it was.

Speaker 7 (01:06:08):
I have written in my life so many articles. I'm
lucky enough now I write comic books and get tell
my own stories and stuff. But I started as a journalist,
and I wrote so many articles that people hated or
people disagreed with or and you know, I'm writing about
nerdy type stuff, so you know, yeah. So, and I'm
a woman and I'm writing my d so it was
a lot. But I will say, like, you have the

(01:06:30):
right idea, the disconnection is safe for the mental health.
But I think in this case specifically and just in
general in our lives, it is good to recognize that
it's like a huge moment for you, you know, and
that's for your own mental health as well, Like, hey,
recognize where you're at and kind of what this means
in the canon of this character, and it will be
the first time kids see this character.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
I was on the subway. I've been in a lot
of things. I've been doing this a long time, but
mostly my audience has been like people who like cinema,
you know, people who want to hurt themselves and twelve
years of sleeve, you know, and that's not.

Speaker 5 (01:07:08):
A lot of yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
And I was on the subway going to something and
these four little black boys they were like, he kept
looking at me. He kept looking and I knew, so
I was like, I don't want to make eye contact
because I don't know if he's gonna yell at me
or not. And eventually it was these little boys just
saying thank you for being on the show. I love
you on the show. And it's not a demographic that

(01:07:32):
outside of Gotham gives a shit about me, but it's
my most it's where I'm aiming little I'm aiming for
little Chris, you know what I mean, the little boy.
They didn't get to see himself that much. And that
is a day that I said, I think, I texted.
We have a big text chain, and I text I'm
so grateful for everybody because we've made it so that

(01:07:53):
I can show my appreciation to a bigger group of people.
And that's kind of the gig. I mean, that's the
way I interpret the gig is like, how can I
serve as many people as possible, whether it be through
entertainment or showing them themselves. And this has really nothing else.
I've never done anything that anybody gave this care this

(01:08:14):
much about.

Speaker 8 (01:08:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:08:15):
I did, of course, of course, and I will tell
you you did.

Speaker 9 (01:08:19):
It's just about whether or not you got to meet
those people.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
Yet, Oh that's a show, because a show like this, a.

Speaker 7 (01:08:25):
Show like this, everyone's watching it and kids are watching it,
and that's so cool and amazing. But all the weird
shit that you think somebody didn't love they love it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:34):
The fact was ever on a show we.

Speaker 7 (01:08:37):
Still just that still blows on mine every single day
thinking about just that fact.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
You know, so you haven't met them yet.

Speaker 7 (01:08:42):
But also this is a big scale up for sure,
Like Subway four kids, this is probably the show they're
all talking about with their friends. Yeah, you know, that's
really cool.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
It's we did a thing last night even and I
met god I met this venture capitalist and I don't
know why I'm a fan of a benure Catholic. It
is nothing like we're talking like apples and oranges. I
don't know what the fuck he's talking about. And when
I met him and he liked the show, it was like, oh,
I don't have to work hard at all to connect

(01:09:15):
with someone who I'm so inspired by.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
Yes, thank you it Welcome to Darry exactly.

Speaker 9 (01:09:21):
It the that is sometimes the power and the trapping.

Speaker 7 (01:09:25):
And you know this because Batman Godzilla, now you're in
this space like you know the trapping. But this is
such a legendary character in the show. Is giving you
so much time to breathe that I think more people
are gonna you know, enjoy the work. And yes, I
think I'm getting I think we're getting timed out. So
that was a really beautiful lost answer. But I'm gonna
you know, it's been like twenty five minutes. We're only

(01:09:48):
meant to have twenty.

Speaker 9 (01:09:48):
I don't want to.

Speaker 7 (01:09:49):
I don't want to take up your day, but you
know what, but that is to protect you and your
energy in your life.

Speaker 9 (01:09:56):
But you are well.

Speaker 7 (01:09:57):
First of all, you're most welcome to come back at
any time, like absolutely anytime, you always welcome. And also
I will ask you one question, one final, less processing,
less emotional question, because we've been debating.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
It a lot.

Speaker 7 (01:10:09):
Okay, how do you read what Hallarin meant when he
told the major he had no fear?

Speaker 9 (01:10:15):
Because we've been talking about that a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Tell me what you think.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
We're still working it out.

Speaker 7 (01:10:20):
Because we've seen him actually like his love and for
his children and his love as a father like that
created fear for him in the tunnels. You know, we've
talked about it a lot. And then my friend Joe,
like obviously Joel, who you met earlier, who often comes,
who is one of our correspondents, told me, you know, well,
maybe they just think he's the army thinks he's not

(01:10:42):
scared because he's a black guy who survived. Maybe it's
actually nothing to do with his own emotional feelings about you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Kind of resonate with being a black woman in America,
doesn't it, like, because you are this thing, we've put
this unnecessary amount of burden on and we've built to
this superhero as a black woman and or Jovi on
who He's gonna love that I just said, he's a
black woman.

Speaker 4 (01:11:06):
That's the biggest compliment he can get.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
He's gonna be like, thanks, dude, you really respect me.
And that's true. Uh, it does have a little bit
to do with that. And I do think that he
doesn't experience fear in the traditional way and penny Wise
found this is my opinion. I don't know.

Speaker 9 (01:11:25):
Yeah, yeah, this is just fearing is canon conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
I think penny Wise is that good at his job.

Speaker 9 (01:11:35):
Mm hm, I agree. I think he's teaching the major
how to fear by showing him what he.

Speaker 7 (01:11:42):
Values, which ironically is going to make him a much
tougher person to defeat.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
For Pennywise, that's my that's the route I took, Especially
after seeing the edit, I went, oh, okay, so he
does feel something like that's close enough to fear that. Yeah,
penny Wise must be pretty good at his job.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Mm hmm, he's pretty scary. That new episode.

Speaker 7 (01:12:02):
We didn't even talk about episode seven, so scary penny
Wise action Pennywise.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Penny Wise said, I'm here. Now, you guys wanted me, I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
Here, he said, I hope you didn't have any complaints
about how I wasn't in the show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Enough because now and I'm hungry.

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
I'm hungry for humans. Well, thank you so much, Chris.
And this was a joy.

Speaker 7 (01:12:22):
And yeah, anytime, if you're enjoying a show, if you've
got something you want to promote, if you want to
come on and talk about something you love, just come back.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
It was a joy.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 9 (01:12:31):
Have a good day.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
This week on X ray Vision, we're giving out our
end of the Year awards. Stay tuned for that. Thank
you to Carmen, Thank you to Joel. That's it for
this episode. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 8 (01:12:42):
Hie bye.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Scepcion. I'm Rosie
Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

Speaker 7 (01:12:52):
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Klefman.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Our supervising producer is abusafar.

Speaker 7 (01:12:58):
Our producers are Calm and Laurent, Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
songs by Aaron Kaufman.

Speaker 7 (01:13:06):
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Heidi our discord moderator