Deeply Well: "Take Your Life Seriously” with Nedra Glover Tawwab

Today we sit with our very first guest of Season Five - therapist and bestselling author Nedra Glover Tawwab, who talks about what it means to “take life seriously” through intention, and why success doesn’t have to start perfectly. Her new book, The Balancing Act, is about learning the difference between “tolerable annoyance and abuse and neglect,” so we stop cutting people off for normal friction and end up lonelier. She reminds us, “we are in charge of our phone,” and sometimes the healthiest move is just not answering, without turning it into a relationship-ending talk. 

What is a healthy community? Tawwab jokes about how important our interactions are, even with the baristas at our local cafe.  Every interaction, especially the reliable day-to-day interactions hold value, and often can be healthier than the relationships we put the weight of expectations on.

 We also elaborate on "how useful it is to know how you show up in the world" and not get pigeonholed into an attachment style. Therapy and our conversations shared within those sessions are to help us identify our patterns and why and how they show up, and create outcomes that don't align with our desires. Tawwab points out these scenarios, how they’ve shown up in her life, and allowed her to acknowledge how she’s grown.

As always, we end the episode with soul-work. Nedra offers the question: “What is your relationship with offering people grace, extending it to yourself as well?

Connect with Nedra 
Website https://www.nedratawwab.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab

Connect with Devi:
Website: https://devibrownwellbeing.com/

Substack: https://substack.com/@devibrown

Living In Wisdom Book: https://www.devibrown.com/book

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/devibrown/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, y'all.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Is Laurena Rosa with the latest with Laurena Rosa on
Black Effects and I cannot wait to see you guys
at the fourth Annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. Okay, we're
coming back to Atlanta, Georgia on Saturday, April twenty fifth
at Palman Yards and it's hosted by me alongside DJ
MV and charlottagnea God. We got drink chances of Noriega

(00:22):
and DJAFM. We gotta keep it positive, Sweetye with My Girl,
Christopherne Hayslin. We got Reality with the King with My Guide,
then my brother Carlos King, and y'all know he does
reality commentary like nobody can.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
We also have Don't Call Me White Girl, the podcast
I Love Mona and Club five to twenty podcasts, along
with the Grits and Eggs podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
So this lineup sack Baby, turn up.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
You're also gonna want to check out the panels that
we have lined up too, Feature and keV on stage,
Pika Sumpter, and John Hope Bryant just to name a few.
Of course, it's way bigger than podcast. We're bringing the
Black Effect marketplace with black owned businesses, Bus the food
trug court to keep you bid while you visit us.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Okay, listen, you don't want to miss this.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Tap in and grab your ticket now at Black Effect
dot Com Slash Podcast Festival.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Welcome to Deeply Well. This show is a soft place
to land on your journey, a space where we explore
what it truly means to live well from the inside out,
not perfectly, but honestly, with all the complexity, the paradox,
the beauty and the wonder of being human. Because in

(01:38):
a world that is constantly pulling at us, this is
the space to come back to yourself, to your body,
your truth, to the practices that genuinely sustain you, the
ones that work when life is actually happening. This show
is for the seekers, the creatives, the sensitive ones, for

(02:00):
everyone doing the quiet, courageous work of becoming whole. This
is Deeply Well.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Hello everyone, welcome back. We are in the flow of the.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
New season and I am so excited, so excited about
today's guests talk about like a breath of fresh air,
a breath of fresh flowers. That's what her work feels
like to me. And we are in our new studio, which,
if you've been following along on social media has been
such an undertaking this last year. But I'm so excited

(02:36):
to bring this show to you from our heart chakra
Set So our first guest of season five, What a
way to kick it off. We are joined by none
other than the incredible Nedra Glover. Towobndra is a licensed
therapist and the author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace, an

(02:56):
instant New York Times bestseller translated into for thirty five
languages worldwide. In addition, she has authored six other books,
including Drama Free and most recently, a children's book titled
What Makes You Happy. A sought after relationship expert, she
has practiced relationship therapy for more than fifteen years.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
With more than two.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Point five million followers across her social media platforms. Tuave
has appeared as an expert on Red Table Talk, The
Breakfast Club, Good Morning America, and CBS Morning Show, and
The Today Show, just to name a few. Her work
has been highlighted in The New York Times, The Guardian,
and Vice, and has appeared on numerous podcasts, including the

(03:39):
School of Greatness, We Can Do Hard Things, and ten
Percent Happier and Deeply Well.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
She lives in.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Charlotte, North Carolina with her family. Welcome to the show, Netra,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
What a warm welcome. I am remembering who I am
as you do. I'm like, oh you did that? She bad? Yes, wow?
Yeah what a life? Really?

Speaker 3 (04:03):
What a life?

Speaker 1 (04:04):
What a life? Yeah? Yeah? It puts everything into perspective.
When I hear it, I'm like, oh, yeah, I did
do that. Yeah wow.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
And you know what, I think that just so many
millions of people. And first of all, can I just
say thirty five languages? I know, how does that even
feel in terms of your work? Just as like expert aside,
but like Ned, your the woman, Ned, you're the little
girl growing up in Detroit, like to have your work

(04:36):
received and help shape and change people for the better
in thirty five different languages, countries all over the world.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
This life that I have now is so much bigger
than what I could have dreamed, is how it feels.
I think of myself as like a student in school,
and I think most of my teachers would be like, really, no, oh,
I was chatty, I was disruptive. Did you get got

(05:10):
into college like on a bridge program? Like girl barely
getting in? So yeah, it's it's definitely like a three
sixty and it's so interesting. Like I think once I
started college, I started to take life serious. Before then,
it was like where's the fun?

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Where am I?

Speaker 1 (05:29):
You know, like I just want to socialize. I just
want to talk to my friends and do all the things.
And then I was like, oh my gosh, I'm an adult.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Let me grow up.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Let me let me grow up, well, let me grow
into something not even grow up. I feel like in
some ways I was grown up right, probably too grown right,
too grown, but let me grow into something I love.
So yeah, I would say that. Yeah, it's I don't

(06:00):
I want to say it's shocking, but it's like wow.
Like when I started to take life serious, I was
destined to do anything. I love that. I love that.
What did What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Taking your life serious? Because like when I hear that term,
I hear like bigger purpose or understanding that like you
have a right to have more and to be in
the world in your unique way.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
I think it means being intentional. Yeah, and not just
being a bystander and waiting for things to come to you,
but having a strategic plan, not anything that's rigid. But
if I do this for this amount of time, I
might get to this point, yeah, and then once you
get to that point, Okay, now I've done this, and

(06:52):
here is the next thing that I can do.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, thinking of that kind of like moment right like
to hear you describe even college, Like, thank you for
sharing the depths of that, because I think so many
people think they can't be great because maybe great didn't
start right away in childhood, or you know, it didn't
follow a particular mold, so you think, well, I didn't

(07:17):
do great in school, so there's no way I could
be that or do that.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
But it's like, I think.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Something we're really discovering in our generation. God, so much
being a millennial is a lot. We deserve all the
reward when we get to the other side, because my god,
we are raising our parents and our children at the
same time. We are living through so much. But you know,
we're really the first generation that has mainstream kind of

(07:43):
centered our identity on purpose and also on the ability
to thrive in multiple industries in one lifetime, to consider
completely new ways of using our work. How does that
show up for you?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
You know? I keep going back to intention, Like right now,
I feel like because I have a book that's translated
in thirty five languages. And I have all these other books.
It's like, what is centering me now? Yeah, And some
things for me has been going back to the basics,
like oh, my gosh, I used to love to order

(08:20):
all my groceries, go to the store. Go to the store,
because that's where you got the energy to be like, oh,
here's this, you know, like I want to go back
in some not all areas, but in some hear me, now, universe,
hear me now, universe specific I only want to go

(08:41):
to Trader Jills, not all the groceries stores, but just
just keeping in mind who I am and where I
want to be, yeah, and saying true to that because
I think so often when you do things in life,
not even within but from the outside, people are like, well,
what's next. You've done that, and what's next?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:03):
And I always look at.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
That is that drives me nuts. I always use it
as a moment to stop the person and be like, nothing,
nothing is next. I don't need to be doing more.
This is enough for now.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
This is enough. Did you hear what the lady said
at the top of this. I think that's enough.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
I think I think she has no no no, I'm
her works.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
I'm doing more. She is coming out with a new book,
so I'm doing more, but definitely being strategic about what
that more is, you know, like what is the core
of me? The core of me is I love being
a therapist. I love seeing clients, and I often probably

(09:46):
damage my clients by saying, as long as I'm alive,
I might just fall asleep in his chair one day,
but I'll be here because I absolutely love that work.
And I feel like that WOR is a feeder for
everything else that I do. It's a feeder for writing
books and being able to speak on shows, like I

(10:07):
really get to sit and listen to people in ways
that many of us we don't understand the power of that.
And so being able to do that and I think, well,
you know, I mean, i'd imagine being able to do it,

(10:29):
well is it's a gift. And you know when I
mentioned like I was a kid in school who was
like always talking but also listening. Yeah, I would do
my work. And I'm like, Debbie, so you said last
night your mom's boyfriend, So what happened with that? It's

(10:51):
like following up right, Like I'm building those skills, like
I have teachers where I knew way too much of
a personal girl. I was just asking questions and I
didn't know, like, wow, people don't do this. This is
why this adult is telling me about their fiance. I

(11:13):
I'm like, did you know that mister so and so
he was moving last week? Because I'm just asking questions
and listening And in some ways I've always done that,
and so to be on a career trajectory that celebrates
that is like, oh my god, I love that for me. Yeah,
oh yes, And.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
It's so funny that's bringing girl. I have so many
pathways I want to go down right now. I'm like,
you have to choose, So in my mind, I'm like
throwing questions away, bringing new ones up. But I love
the way that that's explained because I think, like, you know,
there's this kind of blanketed advice sometimes when people are
looking for their life path or what you know their

(11:57):
work would or could be, and people say things like
back to what you loved in childhood, and if you
don't know how to notice the nuance or clock and
track the changes in your life, that could be hard
because not all of us had childhoods that included hobbies
that were fed or nurtured or you know, community around

(12:17):
any of those things.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
So you may not know what you liked a lot
as a kid.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
There wasn't anything stand out, But then you hear something
like that, and that's exactly what is meant by that.
It's not just like, oh, I really liked playing with sand,
so maybe you know, I'll build sand castles for the
rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Or someone is doing that in a sand castle competition somewhere, sure, right,
Like I have seen some sand castles, and I'm like,
that person has got to be an.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Expert, right because they have been with the greens.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Like they have special water from what they do. Because
when I go to the beach, no, no, But.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Even in that, like to lean into the fact that,
like I was an extraordinary listener as a child, and
that is what began to craft my path and yeah,
I just.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, And as I think about it, like you know,
school is like math science, English, loved English, loved social studies. Okay,
in math science, I was like, when am I going
to use it? Like you have to explain the utility
to me. Why do I need biology? Why do I'm
never dissecting a human? I don't need it. But I

(13:26):
love things where it's like we're going to read a
novel and talk about it because we're learning about people.
We're learning about you know, like so the sociology and anthropology,
Like I was God into that stuff. But the big
things in school are math and science. Especially in our time,
that's what was deeply valued.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
I relate we would have been such good friends as
kids because like I relate to that deeply. Like I
was always in AP English, AP history, in different like
gifted programs, but failing math, failing in science like ess
and I was like, why, what's wrong with my brain?

Speaker 1 (14:04):
But your brain was adjusting to the things that you
needed to know and kind of tossing out the rest.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, divine purpose always leading the way.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
So Nedra's something.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
That I really notice, love and deeply appreciate about your
work in the world and in the multitude of the
ways that you can really get that into people's systems
and hearts. I love the way, especially as a therapist,
you dive into the nuance of everything, of all the

(14:38):
changes you were trying to.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Help people through.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
I think that that's something that is really missed in
the kind of therapized world or in this like mental
health revolution that we found ourselves in in the last
like five to six years. It's like diving into the
nuance of Like when you hear a certain term and
it has like just this list of behavior or experiences.

(15:01):
For most people, it's hard to say, well, no, it's
not quite that or it's not quite this, and you're
giving it to us in it's such an overused world
word to say practical, because it's not that it's practical.
You're giving it to us in a way that it
can be used immediately. It can enlist like instant breakthrough,

(15:23):
and it gives like plan and action of how to
change the behavior immediately, not in theory.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
But in practice.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
And I love that, especially like following you on.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Threads, I just love the way.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
You see how much it empowers people and gives them
a pathway to change right away and like get their
feet wet with it. So in your new book, The
Balancing Act, I really loved that. Like I loved the
case studies, you were sharing the very specific stories. One
that I really related to. In the book, you were
talking about two of your clients, one who was an

(16:01):
overachiever and a lawyer and burnt out and was getting
all of these suggestions on how to take better care
of themselves and couldn't figure it out until life made
them sit down. So if you could start by telling me,
you know, you have taught deep boundaries to people.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
You've taught people.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
So kind of the framework of how to forgive self
and others, And now it's like, how do I balance
this new me in a world that is relentless and
so demanding and harder and harder every day. So what
was your motivation for the Balancing Act? And how do
you hope that it shows up for people, especially people
that have already been changed by your work.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, I hope that with this book we learned to
make the distinction between tolerable annoyance and abuse and neglect
and relationships, that we learn to acknowledge that there is
a difference between dysfunctional codependency and just a little bit

(17:09):
of it, right, Like, there are levels to so many
of these terms that come up as like horrible that
maybe if we didn't have the term, it wouldn't be
so bad.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
The difference between like a codependency is like, yeah, that's
just a little that's fine, And like something that's like, well.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
All right, you got to look at that.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
I think a parent who wants to talk to you
most days when you get off work, and they're kind,
they're supportive, they're not being pushy or anything, but they
just want that level of connection. And maybe you're like, Mom,
I'm on my way home right. Maybe maybe it's an annoyance.
Maybe they do have this dependence on that connection every day,

(18:06):
But that's very different from a person who would curse
you out if you didn't answer the phone. That's very
different than a person who is demanding of your time
multiple times a day. It's very different than a person
who says, well, you didn't call me, you know, So
is it dependence on their part? Absolutely, And I think

(18:29):
that can be adjusted if you you know, you don't
love that in your relationship. However, I think it's more
of an annoyance. Yeah, it's not a dysfunctional pattern where
I need to say that this person here, our relationship
is going to be over because you want to talk
to me every day after work and I'd rather listen
to a podcast.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah, So what does one do like in that kind
of more of recognizing what the annoyances are how do
you have to just to the irritation or are there
kind of things you can set up within that that
feel more serving to yourself.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Well, I think it goes back to boundaries. Like you know,
we are in charge of our phones, and if someone
is calling us on our path home, we have the
power to not answer the phone. We have the power
to actually follow through with listening to that audio book
or Jez or whatever you listening to. You have the
power to do that instead of talking on the phone.

(19:32):
But for many of us, the only way we can
get comfortable is if the person stops. And sometimes people
they want to talk to you. That's not a bad thing.
Who wants no one to call their phone? Right right?
I mean, because that's the opposite of that, like nobody
calling your phone. No, I want people to call my phone.
I love a holiday text of Merry Christmas from a

(19:53):
person I haven't talked to you in a long time.
I had a guy that I used to work with
in college and he would just text me Happy Birthday
because it was our birthdays was around the same time.
I'm fine with that once a year, Kevin, I don't know, Kevin,
what a sweet guy, What a kind heart. Yeah, I
mean after you know, after a few years of college.

(20:16):
But I was I was fine with that, Like, that's
not a you know, that's that's not a thing. So
I think sometimes maybe we do want that space for
a day, But do we need to have a conversation
that ends it forever?

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Do we need to have a long term conversation about that,
because I wouldn't want it. I actually get a little
kick out of being able to tell everybody she called
me every day of the club. Yeah, it's like, oh,
she's so annoying, but why she ain't called right? Right? Yeah,
So some things are annoying, they're uncomfortable any relationship that

(20:51):
you're in, when you love people, they will get on
your nerves. Yeah, And we have to separate the toxicity,
the abuse, the neglect from annoyances. Because the reason I
wrote this book is I'm starting to see in my clients,

(21:11):
and you know, there has been research done the world
is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected,
we're becoming more individualized because we are just chopping people
off in favor of a podcast. And sometimes, you know,
maybe we just need that quick conversation to have that
routine in our day and then we go back to

(21:32):
the thing we're doing. But we actually need people in connection.
We need to go to you know, the grocery store
and the cash here is not paying a lot of attention.
That asks to your ability to tell stories to other people. Girl,
when I went to the store, this cash here, she
you need that. What would you talk about if you
had no friction? That's so good? Like what would how

(21:55):
would you learn and grow if you had no friction,
if you had no situations in life? Like this is
a part of being in relationships with people, and not
just close relationships, because I talk about that too. Going
to your local coffee shop and having the same Barisa,
that's a relationship.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Those are the people who a lot of times they're like,
Carol ain't been here in a week. I think I
got her cell phone number, let me text me. They
may text Carol because that's weird why she had Then
you find out she in the hospital. Oh my gosh,
Now we got to send some coffees up to the hospital.
You know what's so funny about that.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
I just read an article that really moved me, and
it was this man who owned like a gumbo shop,
and every day for ten years, this older man would
come in twice a day, have lunch and dinner. And
he didn't show up for like three days, so they
went out looking for him, and it turned out that
he was passed out in his bathroom and no one
could help him. So they like broke the door down,

(22:56):
got him out. Girls set him up in an apartment
next door to the gum place so that they.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Can keep an eye on him. And I was like,
where does that. I need a gumbo shop, Okay, I
need a relationship. What a healing gumbo relationship? Yeah? Yeah.
But every year around the holidays, we put a basket
on our porch for the ups workers Amazon and all

(23:23):
the folks. And the last two years that we've done
at our mail lady, she always sends us a note
at the end, like thank you for the wrap snacks.
It's so sweet. You know. Sometimes we're having long days
and it's like, she's in my relationship cycle. Yes it's
not a close relationship, you know, but she's in the

(23:44):
relationship cycle. She now has an expectation if that basket
isn't out there in twenty twenty six, she may knock
on our door.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
And she matters to your life. She matters, you know,
Like I think.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
What you're describing.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
So much as Jess beyond perfectly aligned, because I feel
like the pendulum always swings too far right. Like in general,
whenever consciousness shifts in ourselves in the world, we see
this big kind of swing from one extreme to the next,
and then we spend a decade or two kind of

(24:19):
finding what that middle is. And we're in that now
because we're seeing how the last few years, all these understanding,
all these rights for so many different communities of people
came forward with power are now being rescinded in different ways,
and we're finding these stretches, but especially with exactly what
your book is about, that kind of fine tailoring and

(24:41):
refinement that's so necessary for the journey. And I think
when a lot of people are on their journey right,
they're healing journey, their spiritual journey, their journey of awakening.
You do have to focus a lot at first on
yourself as an individual and under what understanding what the
hell is going on inside right and what makes up

(25:03):
my world, and then choosing that world. But then it's
all the other pieces, which I think is so so
important for this moment because we do have to be
in community, but we have to relearn what that looks like,
and not just because we've forgotten as a society, but
society has changed, and those pieces I think are really important,

(25:26):
especially for me to hear. I think about stuff like
that all the time lately in my own community journey,
because our personal ecosystem is what we should be feeding
before we're feeding these parasocial friendships on social media or
looking for the bigger opportunity of this that It's like,
what does your unique ecosystem, what is that created of

(25:48):
that's your world? Practice feeding that world. The person that's
delivering your mail, they are in your life, like in
your life more than the person you follow on social media.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
How do you feed that?

Speaker 3 (26:00):
How do you see what the purpose of that interaction is,
what it could become.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
That's yeah, I love that. I love that practice.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Even with I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up on that
and do that because in this season, for myself, that's
more important than anything. It's like my personal ecosystem, people
being fed near me and around me, being as good
a friend as I'm able to be, but also like
being a friend to myself and knowing in this season
as a being, this is what I can do, this

(26:30):
is what I can't do, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, yeah you.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Something I've been really loving to is on social media
we get to follow your journey as a woman now
even more so we're seeing I love seeing how live
your life is. There is like such a beauty and
a playfulness that I think you share. And when you
came out with your children's book, which my son loves,

(26:59):
my son's class and loves, you had this gorgeous like
rainbow baby doll dress that you wore.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
And it was so I looked at that.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
I was like, this is like the most her I
could ever see her like this.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Tell me about that practice with yourself of inviting beauty
and I know you Garden, I know that you love
art and beautiful things. I think one of our first
times hanging out, you invited me to an art show
and we spent the day seeing this incredible exhibition and grabbing,
you know, sweet snacks around and all that kind of stuff.

(27:37):
So what is your relationship to beauty and what is
that balance for yourself of kind of the hard work
you do the work of the soul, the work of humanity,
and then kind of giving yourself this lightness, this fun,
this pleasure in the other parts of your life.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, I think with art and particular, it makes you
more present to see it. There's nobody in a museum
on their cell phone. There's no as a matter of fact,
turn your phones off. Please turn your phones off, right,
Like that's the rule. It's just the space to be present.

(28:20):
And so I love doing things that are fun where
you could be present. And I'm not even thinking about
time that the event you mentioned for my book party,
it was so fun. It was so fun, like we
were lying, dancing and making necklaces and it was just fun.
And I think that's such an important part of adulthood

(28:41):
that we miss out one because everything is so serious
and everything is so regimented that we forget that dancing,
wearing fun colors, going to museums, incorporating that in some
way your house, whether it's your children's art or you're

(29:02):
making stuff yourself, Like, those are just beautiful accents to life.
It's not a you know, must for all of us.
Maybe we get that in some other direction, but I'm
definitely open to beauty in any way so whether it's gardening,
whether it's art, whether it's you know, home decor, I

(29:23):
love it and I feel like this is my home,
this is my outward home. And so even dressing myself
is a reflection of the joy I get from the
aesthetics of beauty.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, I remember having a client one time
who was depressed and she would always come in her
workout clothes and I joke with her and I say,
I think this is a big part of your issue
family trauma side. It's the yoga pants. It's it's the
yoga pants dress. Don't come in here anymore with those

(30:01):
clothesal you gotta get dressed. You have to put yourself together.
She started doing it, and not that it made her
happier alive, but it made her happier in session. Yeah,
it's something about, you know, the way that we present
that's reflective of what we're feeling.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
So so true and those are like those little kind
of fine details are what are really the foundations of
us being able to be ourselves in the way we
want to be in our life. A big part I
think for you know, when people are again on the journey,
A lot of people, you know, you falsely assume that

(30:42):
you change yourself, and then it turns into magic and
everyone else instantly changes and should adhere to your boundaries
and the fine work of it becomes. Can you adhere
to your own boundaries? Can you be in practice with
working with someone who has not been on the same
journey as you, who just out of their compulsion in nature,

(31:03):
wants to get that boundary down. Can you practice holding
it and holding it in new ways and holding it
with compassion or just detachment. That part of the process
I think is definitely necessary. But what everyone is going
through right now, especially in friendship, and you've been speaking

(31:24):
to that quite a bit, especially on threads, let's talk
about healthy community and healthy friendship.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
A lot of.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
People are looking for the first time to know what
that is and how that feels, and how to show
up in that.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
How does someone begin to.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Understand themselves as a friend and put themselves out there
to build friendship?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Well, I think with friendship, unfortunately, we sometimes see it
as a relationship that always has to be perfect. Whereas
with family, with our partners, especially with our children, we'll
work with some of those flaws a little more. With friends,
we don't have that level of patience and acceptance. And

(32:14):
so if I have started this wellness journey and I
am now going to yoga and I'm using my crystals,
I'm doing all the things, if all of my friends
aren't doing it, they're not good friends. They're not good
friends anymore. You know why, because they're different. What in actuality? Well,

(32:35):
you were just there in twenty twenty five. You just
started this in January.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
It's been a week, been a week, girl, like, chill out.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
This is not even a solid plan yet, right, So
I think you have to incorporate new people, not get
rid of the old ones. And what that looks like
is having your yoga friends, having your friends who you
cut up with around such and such. You know, but

(33:06):
it doesn't mean that, oh my gosh, this person is
no longer good for me. It just means that we
need to adjust, We need to adjust. And I think
sometimes we have a difficult time doing that because we
take it to mean a character assassination of someone. All
they don't want to eat better, All they don't want to.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
And that's fine.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Again, you love Buffalo Wings just last month. You know.
It's like, who put you in charge? Who put you
in charge of diets? Who put you in charge of
wellness practices? And I think sometimes when we learn something new,
we're so excited and everybody should listen to it. But
in actuality, it's our stuff. Yeah, it's our stuff, and

(33:52):
it's another way for us to need to be respectful.
I think in friendships we have to be a good
friend to attract good friends, and those terms and conditions
of friendship change and is really person dependent. Every friend
should not be met with the same set of boundaries
or expectations. We should consider someone's lifestyle and their capacity,

(34:18):
because sometimes we're looking at their lifestyle and it's like, well,
she don't have any kids, and she don't she could come.
She may not have the mental capacity, she may not
have the emotional capacity, So the expectations are sometimes misaligned.
But I think of friendship as a very sacred relationship.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, oh god, it so truly is, especially as we
get older. I just think that's so much more and
more like how lucky I feel to have deeply rooted
friendships that I can also like not be my best in,
you know, like ones that I can yeah, just be
every facet of what being a flawed human being is.

(35:02):
And get to I think it's such a privilege to
be able to watch people over time, to be with
people over time and see who they were, who they are,
who they.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Want to be. You know, Yeah, over time is interesting.
I have a friend and in high school she always
had on a mini skirt, and every once in a
while be like, remember you used to love those mini skirts.
We called you many, always in a little mini skirt.

(35:32):
I've been just and it's you know, it's it's fun
to have that. And now she's conservative, you know, but
just having that perspective is like, wow, what a what
a share And I accept that. I don't hold it
against you you used to be because sometimes people will
do that like that changes. It's punitive, but it's almost

(35:53):
like it's it's just so interesting. I'm like, that is
just so interesting because who we were then is certainly
not who we are now, and it shouldn't be. You know,
we have the ability to change, and we do that
in friendships, just like we do it in long term
romantic relationships. We do it as parents, we do it

(36:13):
as daughters, like we change as people. And that's okay.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, Yeah, something I was really grateful for was you
did a beautiful blurt for my book Living in Wisdom,
which is about a lot of wellness practices. And I
know something that you absolutely explore in your work in
this book is part of the balancing act is having

(36:38):
a more holistic view. You know, I think you do
have to transcend just cognitive therapy for your life to change.
You have to learn how to be inside of yourself.
What does that look like.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
And what do you see with clients?

Speaker 3 (36:52):
What do you recommend in terms of how someone can
have a foot in each of those worlds.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
I recommend a lot of options because there are some
people who will meditate in the way of sitting with
their legs crossed for five minutes. There are some people
who will meditate on a one word too syllable right.
There are some people who will do breath work. There
are some people who journal. But you have to give

(37:22):
people options, and that's what I like to offer, and
I always give them the disclaimer. It's going to feel
weird and silly. Okay, it's going to feel completely weird
and silly to sit somewhere for two minutes and say nothing.
That's going to feel uncomfortable. This is a new practice

(37:42):
and the point of it is not to be good
at it right away. It is to get better with
just sitting in silence, but giving them a lot of
tools and figuring out how they're already doing some of
the things. Because sometimes waking up and getting your house
together is your meditation. You know, waiting there while your

(38:03):
coffee is brewing and just staring at the water, going
into the I don't know what you call it. I
don't even make coffee. The picture, Yeah, that can be
your meditation. Walking through your house and opening your blinds
and getting your essential oils together, maybe that is your
form of meditation. But figuring out what already works for people.

(38:26):
If you don't like the journal, can you keep a
note in your phone if you don't like to do
breath work? So you think when you get upset, just
go outside and put your hand on your chest. So
giving them a lot of options, because I think sometimes
with wellness practices, I don't want to say it's a
certain type of person, but it's certainly not everyone who

(38:48):
is willing to do some of the things that are
can be helpful, yeah, and very centering and you know,
bringing you back to yourself in certain moments. And so
even if people don't practice it all the time. I
love to hear people say, hey, so the other day,
I did this thing you told me to do six
months ago. Great, happy at work one time. Right. I'm

(39:14):
not keeping score, but I think just knowing what you
could do. Yeah, and the situation is really important.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, it's so interesting the way people hold even the
thought of that, because it can bring up so many
different definitions or places of charge and someone so many
rejections of it.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
But really kind.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Of you know, at the core of it, it's being
able to be in your life, being able to really
like witness and behold your own life and create the
space where you feel comfortable to do that. And it's
so important for people to notice, you know, if you
can't do that and it irritates you, instead of getting
mad at yourself, get curious, you know, be like, oh.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Girl, you hate sitting still? What is going on?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
You know?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
We have to stretch our capacity, but we have to
do it through the practice. Like we can't idealize it,
I think, or intellectualize like who we'd be if we
did this. It's like make yourself cringe, get in it,
Like no one knows how to do it. Immediately like
you'll feel absurd, you'll hope no one is watching, and
you'll feel like your skin will crawl sometimes honestly trying

(40:24):
to sit still. And that's what the practice is.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, I noticed with meditation sometimes people say, oh my gosh,
I felt dizzy. Interesting, Yeah, like, oh wow, you felt
dizzy after that, because it's so unsettling to the batting
to just chill.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
I know how interesting us as humans that that is
what's unsettling for us, you.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Know, stillness, silent.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Sometimes when I teach meditation and do a workshop, all
start by asking the group of question, and depending on
what room you're in, it's fascinating, fascinating to hear the answers.
And I'll start with a question, we'll go around the
group and I'll say, what's your relationship to silence? The
kinds of things that brings up is extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
You know.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
For some people they'll say like, oh my god, I
crave it. I love it when I finally get some
time to think. Most people say, I can't stand it.
I'm scared. It makes me feel like I'm opening Pendora's
box or my house was too quiet, so it makes
me feel like I have a strong reaction because I

(41:44):
used to always get the silent treatment or so it's
just fascinating how many different ways this idea of being quiet,
how activating that can be for people. So I think
it's just important for people to know, especially silence.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
God I can oh God. I love I work well
and not with seeing clients, but if I'm writing, it
has to be silent. Any noise is like a distraction
to me, a car driving down the street, some something
going on in the house or something like that. It's like,
I like it to be silent. I like waking up

(42:21):
early in the morning while everybody is asleep because it's
so quiet. It's like I'm tiptoeing, like, oh my gosh,
I hear nothing like that feels great to me because
I feel like once people join you in the world,
it's loud. Yeah, yeah, it's so loud.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Especially as a mom, we start the day with a
hundred people talking to us.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
That's how you know.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
When you go to drop off, you're like, I'm awake,
it's early, and all the people are.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Here, all the people they're messaging, they're yeah, all the
things are happening at once. So when there is like
silence is like this is great. Yeah, it is preparing
me for the noise. So I need the silence, something that.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
You talk about in the book, and I just I
love the way you've broken down your book, like the
way it's written, in the way the bridges that are
created for people.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
It's Sheep's kiss.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
You talk a lot about attachment styles, especially towards the
beginning of the book, and you know, sometimes these words
kind of take over and then everyone is that he's
an avoidant, I'm an anxious I'm secure. But I guess
how useful is it to really understand the ways we
quote unquote attach and how do we begin to kind

(43:41):
of work with that energy in our lives.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
It is useful to know how you show up in
the world. The more information you have about yourself, the better.
And once an attachment style not always an attachment style.
People can activate things in us. They can activate the
avoidance by their behaviors in the relationship. Yeah, people can
activate our anxiety about a relationship by not calling us back,

(44:08):
by not you know. So sometimes it is the partner
or the friend or the situation that we are trying
to be in relationship with that activates this. And then
there are other times where we may notice we don't
even have these tendencies with some people. So it's it's
not this like static thing like if you're avoidant, you're

(44:29):
avoidant in every situation. Probably not true. You probably have
a few folks where you're secure, maybe not everyone. But
then my question becomes, Okay, well, what's the difference in
the people, Hm, what are you getting in this secure
scenario that you're not getting in this one where you're

(44:50):
where you're anxious or you know, if we're if if
it's a client and it's a therapy session and you know,
we're talking about you know, maybe them dat being someone new,
and I'm hearing like I don't want to It's like, oh,
it's sounding avoided. I feel like we have a pattern
of this. You know, it sounds like something you have
done to push people away. They start to express that

(45:12):
they like you, and then you start to kind of
stop answering their cause or you don't like them as
much because they like you. Like, this is a thing
that I've noticed. We have records. Yeah, we here is
historical proof. Here, there is historical proof. So that is
the beauty of therapy that we can you know, we

(45:33):
could kind of go through your timeline and say, well,
on this date last year, there was also a fella
who oh god, who liked you, and I recall hearing
something similar. I recall a similar story. He expressed himself,
Oh my gosh, how terrible. He said, I like you

(45:55):
and I want to be with you. I don't want
to date other people. And then you were no longer
in interested and he started to get on your nerves instantly.
I mean, just like cringe. Uh this guy, right, And
so okay, it happens one time, and then it happens again,
and it happens again. It's like, okay, so you have
this pattern, what do you want to do about it?
Because what I hear you saying is I want long

(46:17):
term connection. This is getting in the way of that.
So what can we do The next time that someone
says I like you, or they express some some wonderful
thing in a relationship, your instinct is going to be
to cringe. And what we have to practice is sitting
with the discomfort of someone being emotionally available, because we

(46:42):
love to say, oh my gosh, you're not emotionally available,
are you?

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Are you?

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Are you? Are you emotionally available? I'm not talking about
time available. I'm not talking about after hours available. I'm
talking about emotional support. Because this person is saying to you,
I like you, and your reaction is ooh, are you
emotionally available? It doesn't sound like it. Let's talk about why.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Yeah, yeah, ooh somebody?

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Who's that for? Somebody? That's funny.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
When I was reading that part of the book, I
was having like a chuckle at myself because I was thinking,
I've been divorced five years, and I was like, I've
probably been every one of these on my dating journey
with someone different.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Like I was like, yeah, I was probably.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Avoidant in this, anxious, in this secure, in this one.
Like it's been fascinating to see how that can arise,
especially even when you know yourself. It's like we're flawed humans.
We're doing all the things, and people kind of trigger
and bring up different curriculum for us based on who
they are.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
And I will say that I have had a history
and relationships with being avoidant. Even last year, I was
out to dinner with some friends and there was a
friend there who was visiting another friend, or a person
there visiting another friend who I met years before, and
I always liked her personality. I really liked her personality.
We seem the vibe well, and after dinner, I said, hey,

(48:14):
let me get your number. Let's stay in touch. And
my other friend was like, what you made me jump
through hoops to be your friend? I said, I'm changing
my avoidant waste? Can I change in public? I'm trying
to acknowledge that this girl is cool. Okay, and let
me grow. Let me grow, Okay, don't talk about when

(48:37):
I met you fifteen years ago and we only talked
every three months. I'm doing better. Let me let me
That is so funny. So, yeah, I met, I've been there,
I've been the Okay, let me get them eighteen rulers up.
You done broke two point five in friendships and dating

(49:02):
and all the things. It's like, so I do have
to sit with myself and say, Savannah, but is he
a good man? Like, well, why are you even saying no?
I don't have no reason. Okay, I probably should say yes,
all right, yep, okay, yes, yeah, because I know where
it comes from. I know that, you know. It's like

(49:22):
it's hard because it's like, oh my gosh, this person
could not be what I wanted to be. But yeah,
ninety nine point nine percent of the time it's beautiful. Yeah,
and it's it's really me not being rigid. So you
can you can overcome these attachment styles. You can be
less anxious, you could be less disorganized, you can be

(49:44):
more secure. It is possible. I made a friend and
I courted her instantly. It's like mine, mine, I'm not
putting people on the five year plan anymore. Oh my god,
I love that.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah, yeah, I love those, Like just those refinements we
get to do right, Like, especially when some of the
bigger work of ourselves is out of the way, then
we get to climb into just those little pockets and
be like, oh yeah, I can release that there, or I.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Can make space here.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
But especially in friendships, like it's so lovely to take
some of the anxiousness out of it or the guarding
out of it, to know that you can walk into
a new relationship trusting yourself and make it fun, like
becoming friends in an ideal way. This wasn't the case

(50:40):
for all of us, but when you're younger, it's fun.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
It's like, oh my god, I.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
Just found out somebody that likes the kind of stuff
that I like, and I can't wait to see them
where we're going to go do this together. And then
as adults, it's more like I think for a lot
of people through this kind of like mm, yeah, I
see her over there, I don't. And sometimes people even
reject the similarities because oh no, I like being myself.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
I don't want someone.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
That does things the way I do them, or it's
so interesting to see things that move within us. As
an adult connecting to these kind.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Of pillars of over we have more experience, we have
more instances of being hurt, we have more instances of
hearing about totally hurt. So yeah, it makes sense that
your guard would be up in so many of these scenarios.
Here's another thing. I am a person who moved for
a man. Oh tell me more. I left Detroit because

(51:34):
my at the time boyfriend wanted to move to Charlotte.
So I was like, okay, and everyone was like you nevered.
Other not everyone. Some people were like, you never moved
for a man. It worked out, we still marry. It's
all the things. But I think sometimes what people are
speaking from is their experience, not that particular person. So

(51:56):
how many opportunities do we miss out? On applying somebody
over applying somebody else's story. Well this happened to this person.
I know this girl, and she did that, and do
boo boo boo, And it's a whole bunch of other
stories that counteract that. Yeah, yeah, things are possible in

(52:17):
a way for you that they were not for other people.
And I don't think we get to choose what those
things are, and we have to. The more we can
drown out the noise of this is how you need
to show up with friends and you should be guarded
about this or she gonna try to do this. Hmm,

(52:39):
the more people we can have in our world. And
I'm not saying just like trust everybody, but I do
think we've lost the trust in the human capacity to
be good, and there are still so many good people
despite the trauma scenarios, despite the terrible dating, there are

(53:01):
some good people out there. Sometimes I'm like, I wish
I could start a dating service for my clients because
the way they the girl and the guy, and the
guy and the guy and the girl and the girl
seem like they want people. I wish I could set
them up.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Oh, I mean, Natra, there's something to this because like
I would let you match, make me eat a heartbeat?

Speaker 1 (53:23):
No, can you start it? Oh no, But I definitely
think that people want connection and we have to find
some ways to better access it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, I've just I really appreciated that. I think
people are going to be like beyond blown away with
this book.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
This is the one.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
That is like for everyone that has read your books,
done your work books.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
This is like, I think, such.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Advanced territory to just really open up your world and
open up your life a new way. I also love
And we're going to get into a little rapid fire
question and then we'll close with soul work. But that
is just something.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
I really enjoy about you.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
Like, you are an integrated woman.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
You are who you say you are.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
You show up in the ways, in the deeply practiced
and earned ways that you direct others. Yeah, you're just
a beautiful person.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Oh thank you. You're a beautiful person and you're just
so like so can I tell you?

Speaker 3 (54:30):
And I'm curious about this how friends operate with you
because you're also a brilliant therapist. How do you hold
your boundaries and friendship in terms of maybe people seeking
guidance from you or how is there a difference that
you've had.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
To create for yourself.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
In the work Nedra that can kind of deduce and
understand and listen. And then like the friend Ndra that
maybe doesn't want to be on.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
The clock, well I understand that pe who are going
through things, and I do want to be available. Yeah, okay,
that's really important to me. And so there are times
where you know, like I might leave here and if
someone called, like, hey, this thing is happened, I want
to talk to you. I have a busy day today,
but guess what, I want to be able to make

(55:18):
time for you because you're important to me. However, there
are some people who overstate their boundaries. Come on, explain
to us what is this? Well, I think they haven't
the earned the boundary credit yet. You know, it's like

(55:39):
there are phases in a relationship or people use that
too often, right, Like this is a not to say
if you're going through a divorce, you know that's gonna
last for some months. I can allie for that in
my head, but if you're talking to me about the
same thing ten years later, in comes the boundary. Yeah, right,
So I think it's it's levels to how I apply

(56:03):
those boundaries, and so I tend to be very clear
with people and say like, hey, girl, have you thought
about going to therapy because this seems to be a
topic that in our friendship, I don't know that we
will get to the bottom of it. And it's been
different things throughout friendships where it's like this person is

(56:25):
stuck on this thing. I cannot talk you through this,
five other friends can't. But you may need to figure
out some cognitive behavioral tools, which I'm not teaching in
a friendship. You may need some emdr which I'm not
doing in a friendship because we cutting up on both sides,

(56:46):
so those are not friend skills. So those things you
may need to speak with a life coach. You may
need to speak to a therapist. You might need to
go to a group. So there are times where it
makes sense for you to seek another person. Even if
I'm a therapist, I'm not an accountant, I'm not a
tax attorney. So some of these things you need to

(57:08):
seek an expert. And I can only talk to you
about it so much, but I do. It is important
to me to be available to the people that I
call friends because that's what friendship is. Yeah, thank you.
I think that is.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
So helpful and such great permission for everybody listening. Let's
do a little rapid fire questions.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
So what does a well lived life mean to you?
Love at the end of it all?

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Oh? What are three products you use on your mind,
your heart, your body and your life that bring you joy?

Speaker 1 (57:56):
I just try this new product and I have told
five friends about it. Sorry I have told you yet,
but it is l V. They have a shade butter stick. Listen,
what a shade butter stick? And it is hard, it
is nice and solid and you just rub it wherever

(58:17):
you need to. So that I just dropped a product. Yes, yes,
I yeah, I influenced myself. I'm gonna go buy more now.
But I love that shade butter stick. I've been taking
and I haven't I haven't hit add to cart yet,
but I have been looking at an acupuncture matt oh,

(58:40):
oh get it? Okay? Yes, So I have been thinking
about that. And then the other thing. Oh what is
my thing? I love a little ie maask while in
the bathtub. You sent me an imask yes, like I'm massager,
Like yes, I oh do you love it? Yes? I

(59:03):
like to do the cycle of like nine minutes and
then it's like that was a good soak. Yeah, that
was a.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Good love our alignment there because we send each other
like really great little gifts like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
So those are those are that I guess products, but
also practice, schools, things, practices, staying keeping your kids at
your kids, your skin moisturized, that's important.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
What is a way that you've grown that you're most
proud of.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
I think I am less reactive to gas lighting.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
What were those reactions?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
My reactions used to be to discover the paper trail
and prove it to the gas lighter. Look, you said
it on November second at two o'clock, and as we know,
they have a comeback. When I said it, Yeah, when
I said it, I didn't mean So what I have
done is taken myself out of the cycle. Yeah, because

(01:00:14):
I know what the truth is. I have proof of
the truth in many cases. And so now when people
gaslight in any way, and sometimes my kids will do it,
I didn't have that there, okay, or I promise I'll
put it back. So I just take a little picture
and I'm like, okay, so this is why you can't

(01:00:36):
use this outlet anymore, because now the thing is forever unplugged. Like,
now you've unplugged the refrigerator, right, It's like I was
just gonna use it for ten seconds. Okay, now we
have a row. We have no food. Now we have
no food. It's all spoiled, thank you. But yeah, I
just I don't respond to it in the same way
I used to get so like personally attacked, like why

(01:00:59):
would they do that to me? And it's just a
part of their process. It is just a part of
their process. They're not doing it just to me. They
do it to people. Yeah, so it's not even personal.
It is the way that they exist in the world.
And in my mind, if you have proof, yep, yeah,
you would just own up to it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
That has not been the pattern of what has happened
with anyone ever, anyone ever, I mean even a hairstylist,
even though you know when people have that character and
they react in that way with gaslighting, it's like, okay,
all right, I know what I need to do here.
I need to change what I'm doing right right, Then

(01:01:42):
it comes down to participation. I'm not participating.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Last question, what's one of your favorite things about yourself
as a woman.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I am solution focused probably in many cases before I think.
So if it's like something like, oh my gosh, I
broke a hill on my shoe, Okay, I'll just have
to walk on my tiptails, and it's like you have
another pair of shoes, I'm like, I didn't even think
about that. I was just like, okay, keep going. Like

(01:02:16):
I'm very much like if something happens, I'm like, it
doesn't stop me. Yeah, it's like I'm still doing the thing.
Let me quickly figure out a plan and pivot, But
I'm not going to get off the track. That's not
one of the things that could happen here. Yeah. Oh
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Our final thing on every episode, I invite our guests
to leave a piece of soul work for the audience listening,
so a way to kind of integrate this episode as
they live with it, see you know what kind of
parts of themselves. It climbs into what is a practice,
a thought, a prompt, a quote, anything for integration of

(01:02:56):
everything that we expressed in this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
What is your relationship with offering people grace? And you
are also the people, so that is for yourself and others.
Oh that's good.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Oh that's going to leave us sitting for a minute
in contemplation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Hopefully. Yeah, that's beautiful, Neger.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Thank you so much for all of the work you
do in the world and all of the ways you
uniquely choose to do it. It's such a privilege and
a pleasure to know you as a woman. Your new book,
The Balancing Act is available everywhere now, as well as
all of her classics. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Thank you for having me now mistake.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not
constitute a per patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

(01:04:07):
any specific concerns or questions.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
That you may have.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
Connect with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter
and Instagram, or you can go to my website Debbie
Brown dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
And if you're listening to the.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget, Please rate, review, and
subscribe and send this episode to a friend.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Deeply Well is a.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced
by Jacqueis Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The
Beautiful Soundbath You Heard. That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or
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