In this deeply personal roundtable episode of Sacred Lessons, host Mike de la Rocha sits with four men from the DENA Heals Men’s Circle for an unfiltered conversation about sex, consent, and the conversations many of us never had growing up. Together, they reflect on coming of age without guidance from fathers or caregivers around intimacy, respect, and responsibility, and how that silence shaped their understanding of masculinity. Through vulnerability and brotherhood, they speak honestly about the messages they learned, the harm those messages can carry, and what becomes possible when men gather to tell the truth and heal generational patterns so the next generation of boys can grow up with a different understanding of manhood.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the psychos Father's pass down that son.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Left being a man was holding it all together.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I'm learning how to.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Let go this space to find the power to heal
and transform.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
Welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Some men were never taught how to talk about sex,
and when silence becomes the teacher, boys end up learning
from the wrong places. Welcome to sacred lessons on Mike
Dela Rocha. Today's episode is different from our usual format.
Instead of one guest, I'm sitting with several brothers who
have been consistently showing up to the Dina Heels Men's
(00:44):
Circle for.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
More than a year now.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We've been gathering every two weeks, men from different generations, backgrounds,
and life experiences coming together to talk honestly about what
it means to be men, fathers, sons and partners. This
circle is part of the work of Dina Heels, a
community initiative supporting families impacted by the Eating fire and
(01:08):
Alta Dina and Pasadena through culturally responsive healing, trauma and
formed care and mutual aid. Out of that work grew
something powerful, a space where men can talk about the
things we were never taught how to talk about. And
today we're exploring one of the biggest silences that I
and many men grew up with sex or to be
(01:32):
more specific, how do we talk to our sons about sex,
consent and responsibility, because the truth is that many of
us grow up without ever having those conversations at all.
All right, my brothers, Well, I'm trying to get comfortable
(01:55):
with this situation set up. But first I just want
to say Beon and Been and my brother Keith and
my brother jose thank you all for enriching my life.
I've learned so much about what it means to be
a person, what it means to be a man, by being.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
In space with all of you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And two weeks ago when we sat down, I was
asking one, I would love for those those outside.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Of our circle to know what it is that we do.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And when I was asking you all, like what is
a conversation we should have almost unanius, we were like,
let's talk about sex and whether it's my own Catholic upbringing, colonization, whatever,
my own fear my mom listening to this podcast. I
just never had the conversation about sex with my dad,
(02:47):
my mom, anybody. And as a father of a young
boy who's about to be thirteen. This is very deep
in personally, because I am sweating just even asking the question.
So I will open it up with this simple question.
Did anyone ever talk to you about sex when you
(03:07):
were growing up and growing up? And if not, how
did you learn about it? You know, I opened it up.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
No, I was never talked to about this, but growing
up in the father of this home, I think it's
more difficult for a mother to talk to a son.
I think she threw me a flyer that had a
condom in it and took off to Vegas and me
and my kids, mom, well my girlfriend at the time,
we're just sitting there.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
So that was my conversation here.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, here it is.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
That's more than I had. I never got no condom
thrown at me. So even just saying the word condom,
I start to get which is not healthy, because why
should we be afraid of a conversation about our bodies
anyone else?
Speaker 6 (03:50):
Yeah, So, no, no one ever talked to me that
was an adult about sex. So I had an older
cousin that was two years older than me, and we
were spending a night with each other. I remember he
was taking like sex ed, So that was the first
time he was telling me about like masturbation. But like
my sex ad came from late night HBO trying to
like watch in between the scrambles of the channel. But
(04:13):
nobody that was like a relative or adult around having
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And then so your teacher of sex, like many of us,
was cinemax.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Cinemax HBO.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
You know, at the time, you could find like pornography
magazines and stuff around, so you would look for that stuff.
Speaker 7 (04:33):
Yeah, for me, I would say nobody. I learned in
high school. But I was introduced to sex at a
young age outside of you know and a self exploration
and things, you know. But I would say I learned
through what I know now through the same thing HBO.
(04:56):
There was a lady back in the day, her name
was doctor Ruth, and that's kind of like what I learned.
What I learned and how to explore and things like that.
But most of the things was self taught. And but
my exposure to sex was through family and you know,
being a youth and then just being tossed in playing
(05:16):
house and that's how I was exposed.
Speaker 8 (05:19):
To it, just from hearing from everyone. I have a
unique experience where I was actually this.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Conversation was given to me by your dad, by my father.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (05:29):
So I'm the youngest of a large family, so all
my elder all my siblings have already gone through it,
so they had practice to tell me. But in the
conversations it was always like scatholeen, Like, you know, I
remember asking about what sex is and being told, oh,
you know, that's holding hands or that's kissing, Like what
does that mean? Like what's a kiss? You know, because
(05:49):
it was like just a plain kiss and then there's
a tongue what like, not knowing about anything, but it
was a candid conversation that was always brought back Okay,
I noticed what's going on, you know, Like so it
was an open conversation. So I guess that's a very
unique experience.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, I was, Deann.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You said something that triggered a response to my body
when you said you you learned about sex through plain house,
and you know, in our in our conversations that we've
been having together. My first intimate encounter was plain house
(06:31):
with a cousin where I felt like I didn't know
if there was a consensual I was too young, and
so therefore my my first interaction with another intimate relationship
wasn't necessarily a healthy one, I think reflecting back, and
(06:51):
that therefore informed the way that I had relationships with
other women in my life. And I wonder if you
can share because in the absence of a father, or
really a father that talked to us, it sounds like
that at least four of us here about sex, consent,
healthy relationships, and we are learning from these experiences, if
(07:14):
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And so you.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Brought it up, I wonder if you can elaborate a
little bit more about that.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Well, that family member has been passed away, but it
was a situation where my mom passed. My mom passed
when I was six. My dad was in Massachusetts basically
studying and things like that, and I was raised with
a lot of cousins and aunts that basically had a daycare.
(07:42):
And so my experience was, Oh, this is what you're
supposed to do, and this is how you play house,
and you're supposed to put this there. And so that's
kind of how my first experience in, Wow, what's this
happening with my body?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Right?
Speaker 7 (07:58):
And this is normal? And then that became addicted to
that sensation, and that was kind of my introduction to
it if that yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What about you, like.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Obviously for learning from others, like why do you think
it's so hard for us men to have a conversation
with peers and or children about sex?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Then in order for us to develop a specific self control,
a level of self control because of the unknown when it.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Comes to I mean not just.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Sex, but specifically sex that carries like emotions or like
a will or a want behind its own like almost
if its own nature. So then your decisions become based
on something you feel that you don't know what you're feeling,
so you don't really know or I never really learned
how to navigate through that, so then you kind of
go towards what you're feeling instead of what you know
(08:51):
because you've either learned or somebody taught you, which typically
you only learn that soon when somebody teaches you. And
I know, we start having these urges or what what
likes in the sense before ten years old, so I
could imagine or I could.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Only assume, especially for me, like if it was never taught.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
So for years we go with these cravings or these ones,
not knowing how to go about it.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Then how is that affecting our everyday choices.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
And is it Yeah, I don't think that it is
difficult to talk to other men about it. And so
like where I grew up in the hood in La,
it was all about how many can you get? The numbers,
and so it wasn't a conversation about like safety or
how to do it. It's just you know, you got
in there and you figured it out. So that's pretty
(09:39):
much my experience. I think the conversation is, then how
do you talk about you know, the safety and the
effects of bonding with someone and then you know what
that can do to your psyche and you know it
can be addictive, but then also having a conversation like yo,
it actually is an amazing act and just you know,
(10:01):
how do you in the most healthy way engage with
that and not let it be something that you know,
because anything could become an addiction. And so I think
a lot of my peers that was more so an addiction,
and the culture talked about you know, it's all about
the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, and so then you
have to in a sense have the conversations later on
(10:22):
to then get a better to get a healthier mindset
when it comes to you know, sex and the physical acts.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I mean, I want to just sit in this and
anyone can chime in. But I had similar experience where
you are more of a man the more at least
as as a straight man. The more women I had
sex with, the more manly I became. And it was
in hindsight now it's a very destructive way of being.
(10:52):
But again, in the absence of a conversation, then that
becomes the dominant narrative. And therefore, if you're not going
up the ladder like you share, then somehow my masculinity
is gone.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
And I wonder if was that.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
A similar thing that the four of you all had,
or was a different interaction or.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah, for me, it was too, not that I engaged
in doing so in my youth, but it was. It
was like an audious thing, kind of like an unspoken truth,
even though it was spoken, almost never directly. But it's
like we all know what we know, and you don't
really have to talk about it, but when you do,
the next person would acknowledge because it's it's pretty much
the norm.
Speaker 7 (11:31):
Well, I'm from Belize, right, so in Belize, the culture,
the music, everything's around sex. You just like Jamaicans and
things like that. You drink things because the better you
can perform, the more manly you are.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
And when I finally moved in with my dad the age
of fifteen, he wondered if I was gay because I
never brought girls home or when he was there. So
my point to prove to him was, Okay, I'm going
to have sex. And I had sex in his bed
and he caught me with a girl having sex on
his bed to prove to him, Nope, I just don't
bring them at home. But again it's something that's celebrated. Right,
(12:08):
you're not a man if you don't have the numbers,
you're not you know, the dance everything like that is
very sexual. And so for me that was my Even
what you drink and how you drink it to this day,
you know, there's a lot of Caribbean people who think, oh,
I'm going to drink. There's a drink call with bitters,
you know, before you perform, along with other alcoholic drinks.
(12:29):
You know, so I can be better in bed and
that shows how madly you are.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
How is that this is for any of us?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
But that notion that seeped within the dominant society that
we're supposed to take pills or watch porn or do
any of this stuff so that we can perform better.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
To me, it's.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
It's very destructive for me because then it's like, well,
what if that's not what I want to do, But
I'm supposed to to like live up to that. And
I wonder as as all men of color, it's also
different because we're having a meta color conversation. So I'm
also clear, like why passing. I'm a white passing person,
but white men have a different understanding in this society.
But how has this notion of performance number of women,
(13:19):
if you're a stray man or just whatever, how has
that impacted the way that you see yourself in relationships
with other people.
Speaker 8 (13:27):
I think there's a sense of bravado if you go
back to the number thing.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (13:31):
Yeah, So in the eighties we had the sex ed classes,
and I remember being called out as an a seventh
grade or eighth grader with the banana and the condom
in front of all my peers and having that option
to either take it responsibly or start clowning. So, I mean,
I thought it was a good time to be responsible,
and it did a proper way, and that set the
path going forward. So but being able to approach this
(13:53):
in a safety way of my health and then but
also building like that conversation I had with my father
of black, Oh, you got to be you should be
in love or at least have good feelings for this person,
you know, let them down easy when you're going to
be leaving them. So it was a delegate balance to
to like, well, but then when you're at the homies,
you want to have big numbers. But then you don't
want to be soft, right because then you're a lover
(14:15):
and then you're not a fighter. So it's a very
delicate situation. But in my own experience, it was a
way to develop who I am and it makes it mine.
So how I get to love my wife is mine
and I don't care how you guys or anyone outside
of my circle shows that. But I think in that
trajectory or I was able to develop who I am
(14:36):
because I had guyd Grails, you know what I mean, Like,
I had the support system, and it was a conversation
that wasn't taboo. Although within you mentioned Catholicism. Yes, that's
very taboo, right, But then you just want to procreate
to have more souls. But then in the reality of
being in this capitalist society, like kids are expensive, and
then have that knowledge growing up to be like fifteen
(14:57):
and like oh my gosh, like condoms are this price,
diapers for the next eighteen years or this price? And
that was actually something that I came understanding how to
approach it. So with the homies gonna be like, oh,
he this you know, so and so wants to be
with him, but he doesn't want to do it because
I was like, no, I don't want to risk that.
I have other plans.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
That was my experience, and I know when we sat
down two weeks ago, I asked you, is there a
question that I should ask in this in I don't
know if it was you, Dann or someone said, ask
us who taught us how to put on a condom?
Speaker 8 (15:31):
Yeah, that was a that was a big step, right,
And this was by teenagers that came down from the
from the high school to teach the middle school. So
it was a lot easier. And uh, you know, I
think now doing presentations and pds, you kind of pick
out who you're going to I don't know, not pick on,
but like that's an advocate right, knowing like maybe this
(15:51):
woman was looking out for me, you know, like, oh,
he looks like he's active, you know, he's let's teach him.
Speaker 7 (15:58):
Yeah, I just want to say I think I think
that this group has really helped me in a significant way.
Where when that that that moment just happened for me
recently with me and my son right driving down the
street leaving work, and he noticed a girl and he
slouched back in the car and things like that, and
(16:19):
that's when it hit to me like, Okay, now he's
noticing girls, right, And I always wanted to have that
conversation because I didn't have that conversation with my dad.
So for me using condoms and things was in high
school and being afraid. I think my science teacher did
a great job of teaching me about STDs and things
like that. And I think for me, the conversation presenting
(16:40):
itself organically.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I spoke to you.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Were you and you know, I'm sorry for interjective, but
I'm at this point literally in my life, I have
to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, and so you see, you're with your son, he
slouches back, he sees another woman, you're like, oh, I
know that sign correct. So then that was a trigger
for you. What did you how did you ask or
how did what did you say?
Speaker 7 (17:06):
So it took some time for me to build up
to it. I felt like a kick in my gut.
And I always thought that I was going to be
ready for when this conversation happened, and I thought it
was going to be later in his life. I didn't
think it was going to come at fourteen years old.
And so for me, it was kind of like, Okay,
how do I bring it up in this conversation? How
(17:27):
do I talk to him about it? I didn't want
to see like the nerdy dad or the you know
that he's taking fun of I'm making fun of him,
And so I did tell my girlfriend that, you know,
because she was going to wait for snowboarding, you'll see
condoms around the place, but just no, it's not mine, right, Like,
(17:48):
I'm going to be talking to my son about this
because you know, he's starting to reach that age. And
I think I think a lot of failures sometimes within
my circle of friends was when that started happening, as
we're afraid to talk about it and we think, oh,
they're just going to learn on their own or from
the school, and I didn't want that to happen for
my son and I. And so what I did was
(18:09):
we went out to lunch, my son, myself, and my
cousin and we were just walking around and I looked
him in the eye and we were laughing, and I said,
I have a question for you. And I said and
I said, both of you, And I said, I called
his name, and I said, are you thinking about have
(18:29):
you been noticing girls? And he says the dad And
I says, oh, okay, So what do you guys know
about sex? Do you know how to put on a condom?
You know? Do you know what this means? And he
said no, And for me that was okay. This opened
this door to have a conversation. And I said, okay,
all jokes aside, and it's not going to be weird.
But you know, next weekend, when you're home with me,
(18:53):
because he lives with me and his mom, I said,
we'll talk about sex. I'll show you guys how to
put on a can. You know, we're going to go
over the whole thing. And so he was very receptive
to it. But I think just the environment that we
were in and just being light and authentic and just
let him know, Hey, I'm not coming from a joking
(19:13):
or the geeky dad's side, and I'm generally asking you
this question was one of other things. In fact, last
night it was very interesting because he's now with his mom,
but no too.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sorry.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
Monday night, we were talking on a rug just driving home,
and we're talking again about the subject of sex, and
he was letting me know that kids in his grades
are already sexually active, you know, he's fourteen and so,
and we talk about misinformation and why I just I'm
very open with him, and I speak with him about
(19:52):
I don't want to give him misinformation because there's so
many information out there, and kids look on the internet
for you know, guidance, And he said, I know that.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
That's why I.
Speaker 7 (20:03):
Educate my friends when they're saying wrong things. And then
he informed me that at the school he went to,
there's a young person that's no longer there, a young
girl who there was a video of her giving oral
to another kid, you know, So it's really prevalent in
the high schools. And I think sometimes as parents, we
don't want to believe our kids are sexually active or
(20:26):
they are around drugs and different things like that. But
I'm glad that I was able to talk to him.
We made a night of it. We went to have
some frozen yogurt we grabbed. We went to the store
and he bought a cucumber. Well, we bought a cucumber,
and my cousin who is twenty six, and my son
(20:46):
who's thirteen, both got nervous because we're buying one cucumber.
And I said, listen, nobody know why we're buying this cucumber.
It could be for a salad, it could be for whatever,
but we know what it's for, right. But we bought
a things to like CANNESDA and stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But you bought the cuban because you're going to teach
them how to.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
Put a correct on it, and so I just make
it fun, right, and gave them the rapper, had them
learn how to open it and play around with it.
And their first reaction was like, oh, this is slimy,
you know, like why so? Like why is there liquid
in it and so? And how to properly put it on? So?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And then will wait hold on.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Thirteen about to be fourteen year old son and then
twenty six year old.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
They both didn't know how to use the condom.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
Yes, so well my son is fourteen going on fifteen
in October, but my twenty six year old cousin, right,
I believe. I don't know this to be true, but
I believe, you know, it's the whole concept of, oh,
I'm allergic to condoms. You have so many men who
joke about that and as a way not to use condoms.
(21:54):
But for my thing is, it's not only about preventing
you from having a baby, right, it's STDs and this thing.
So I no one properly taught him how to put
it on, and his thing to me was okay, well
I was told that you're supposed to have air in
(22:14):
it or not have air in it something like that,
some wrong information. And so I had to show him
the proper technique of pension a tip and how do
you put it on and all this other stuff and
why it's important. And then you know, a lot of
men joke about not wearing condoms because you don't have feeling,
you know, or desensitize you, and it's like, no, they're different,
(22:34):
you know, condoms, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Anybody else And this is mostly for me, and thank you,
Dion for sharing, but other tips you have for fathers
just in terms of how do we talk to our
sons about sex, Like obviously what I hear from you,
Dian is you just organically naturally bringing up And something
that I'm very aware is like my son's going to
(23:03):
react to how I'm my energy I'm putting off. So
if I'm nervous about it and sweating, He's gonna be
nervous and sweating. But if I just calmly, just not
as a joke, which is like in passing, Hey man,
you know you into women or or who just into
a person and you know, But any other tips or
have you guys talked to your children about it?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I think it's.
Speaker 8 (23:24):
Staying like I want to be involved, right, like I
want to have a conversation, saying that he was looking
forward to that conversation, right, And I can imagine there's
some that don't want to have a conversation. So it's
just staying curious in their life and being there for them.
I think that's the most important. And reading cues right,
like being aware, I think that's huge, And that's just
(23:46):
showing up every day.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
And then I'll answer it from the perspective of somebody
that didn't have an active father, and you know what
I'm saying, just just if he was there and having
that conversation, how much I would have appreciated. So from
the perspective of like the child, just have it like
however it has because he's going to remember that. And
you know what I'm saying, You're going to be implanting
(24:10):
some some wisdom versus waiting. And then you know because
at the end of the day, like your son looks
up to you and like whatever you say, even if
you think it goes out of one in one ear
and out the other, Like, he's going to remember whatever
it is that you teach him. So I would just say,
you know what I mean, have the conversation.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, planned to see I think for me.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Unfortunately for not having been there for my kids, I
think the bigger and the same for me too. A
big question is the possibilities of what can of the
outcome if you don't have the conversation. So my daughter
right now has my granddaughter, and she was young, and
now the father is deceased after my granddaughter was three months.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
It's overdose.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Obviously I'm assuming he didn't he wasn't fortunate enough to tell us.
Come my daughter didn't have those conversations. So it's like,
now she's a single mother, she's twenty one years old.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
And.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Like, that's what the possible outcome. And I'm assuming that
these conversations can make a difference.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You know, I'm not saying they for sure will, but
like just being.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Conscious about the things that might go away that we
could probably prevent, like having that option now while we
have the option, because or you can be.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
In my shoes now and not have that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
One of the things that I really have tooken from
our biweekly men's circle is that we all come with
all of our experience and we don't judge any of us.
In fact, we embrace each other in very profound ways.
And something that I've found enlightening, because I don't feel.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Like the only one, is that we live in a.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Culture that teaches us as man that everything is for
our benefit. We're supposed to control everything, the land, women, everything,
which is what leads to a rape culture, right. And
something we don't talk enough I think about publicly is
the fact that when we talk about these issues of consent,
it's hard for a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Of us men to know what the real.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Meaning of consent is, because we were taking advantage of
as children ourselves. And if we say, hey, you know
I was molested or hey, I was traumatized for whatever experience,
somehow I'm less of a man. So then we just
keep it in and therefore we have a hard time
teaching consent because we don't know because it was never
taught to us. And I'm not saying in words, I'm
(26:39):
saying the way we were taking advantage of as young kids.
And so I wonder if that resonates with you or
if that's similar your experience or other experiences you've seen
a man, just in terms of how we've been raised.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Definitely, I believe haardly that we not only have to
overcome our fears or our inabilities and our traumas, but
those of our past generations. Like whatever they pass songs,
what ultimately becomes ours. Whatever they couldn't provide or teach
us with, we would have to learn, and then we
would have to know that they didn't do it. So
(27:13):
I'm assuming that for me myself, I know for sure
the blame was always pointing the finger at first, like
my dad not being there my mom not showing affection
and all this, but then learning at the same time
or afterwards actually that they didn't have that, So how
were they going to teach me?
Speaker 4 (27:28):
So being able to.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Break that cycle, it's going to always weigh more on
the next generation in each passing generation until it doesn't.
So that's where I stand on and that's where I
think I work towards acknowledging these like the simple things,
because it's these the safe space, like you said, like
just being aware and having that providing that safe space
where they can just talk about it, like kind of
(27:50):
how you said, I just passing by like oh this
is happening right now, kind of be open enough to
just be comfortable. But then how do you get to
that space? And it's not going to begin with this
specific converse is going to be like what's your favorite counter?
You know, and it starts with it from way outside
of that field, but then it always navigates back to
the opportunities are this. So then just creating that safe
(28:11):
space and allowing any conversation to ensure I think is
one hopefully I still have a chance to talk to
my youngest about these things. So that's why I'm working
towards right now because she is thirteen two.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Anyone else, how do you all talk about issues of
consent or respect with your children or other men in
your lives.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
I think the consent topic is fairly new, right. I
think within the past few years the word consent has
been thrown around. So I think growing up it was
looking for cues like body cues, body language, or looking
for that like that in right and then until you
hear the no and you could proceed forward. But with
(28:56):
the children now, and I've noticed it with other toddlers
and youngsters new parents, is is it okay if I
change a diaper?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Now?
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Can I pick you up? Can I give you a hug?
So it's like immediately starting that left field conversation, so
that consent is already being planted in or just knocking
on my kid's door, can I come in now?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You know?
Speaker 8 (29:16):
So it's that consent. I think the larger issue can
really lead to that one specific importance of having that consent.
So I think it's a daily practice until you need
to have a very specific conversation about it, because until then,
if you have if you're not talking about consent, all
of a sudden like, what, this is a whole new
concept for me.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, And I think what I'm hearing from this is
obviously this entire conversation and what we're doing is really
a conversation about power, right, and who has power and
who does it in this society with all the different
identities we do carry. And that's where I think for me,
this conversation of sex in terms of a lot of
conversations is hard for me because I never had it
(30:01):
number one, but number two, it was almost like, well,
sex is a form of power, and we as men
have particular kind of power, but when we're indoctrinated that
everything is for our benefit, and then that's an unhealthy
way of looking at things, you know what I'm saying. Therefore,
why should you have a conversation with sex when that's
(30:24):
for your pleasure?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And so I've been trying to just really sit with
this question of like how to have a conversation about
sex when it's deeper than just sex.
Speaker 8 (30:34):
It goes back to what you were saying about generational right,
It's going to be harder because it was three four
generations back that didn't have the conversation. So why do
I need to have it now. But a lot of
times my philosophy is it ends with me, right, because
we want them to move forward without all that luggage.
So I'm going to have a hard conversation. I'm going
to because it has to stop somewhere, And it's like
(30:56):
a it's a choice that we make to be like,
it's gonna stop here. When do you have that new child?
And it's like, eh, this is Brandon beginning. It was
precious and I get to like imprint on this child
as being of course you want to start with a
pure heart right and keep going every day.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, I think for me it was since I didn't
have a father, I so I was always my mom
in different relationships, but specifically her being the.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Dominant household, head of household, and she.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Never communicated, not about anything directly except what she wanted
from me or what to do that I don't know
about anything from her past. Wasn't until I was well
into my twenties that do those conversations even existed. And
I kind of had to make a demand, I stand
on business to get her to even talk about these things,
what her upbringing was like and what she had to
navigate through to get to where she was at and
(31:48):
help me understand these things. Because I had so much
resentment and hate and I didn't know where it came from.
I didn't know how to get rid of it. So
I kind of transfer that concept or ideal. So make
sure I didn't do it. I mean I made great,
many mistakes, but one thing I always did was communicate
about everything, like what am I doing today, I'm walking
to the train.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
You know who were talking to? How did I learn Spanish?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
I didn't know Spanish until I was over twenty, and
I did it by talking to I asked men and
spoke Spanish. For some reason, men were more like, you're
an idiot, you know Spanish and you know something like that,
And I was a vibe I got a lot of times, so.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
I was like, okay, So I always asked.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
I would go to grocery stores and go to the
produce and I see a bunch of a bunch of
older women that they're doing, I'm on the train asking question.
So I would have these random conversations with my kids.
But because I know it's like, if you get what
you put in right, you get out what you put in.
So if I wanted them to have random conversations with me,
and it's a big conversation between me and my kids.
Mom n Now, I was like, you want them to
be vulnerable and open up to you, but yet you're
(32:48):
not showing them your vulnerability, so you got to kind
of give and I'd been kind of using that and
they do.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I mean, I got to sit back.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Sometimes I don't get to live with them, so I
have to sit back and wait or keep living my
life as I can when that phone rings and they're
calling me about something so random, and I'm like, Okay,
this is what I was waiting for. And it's been
happening more and more lately. You know, they still have
their resentment because of the time I wasn't there and
for many other reasons, but for some reason because of
those random conversations. Now I get to hear their random conversations,
(33:17):
their stories and what they went through and how they're
they're asking me how to go about situations that they
know they don't know, and I think, like you said,
that's I do want to break that barrier where they're
going to pass it on to the next generation, because
that's it gets real scary when you got one generation
did another generation after you, and I'm statistically the way
things going, I'm going to see another generation after me.
(33:39):
So I think it becomes really important and and you
kind of remove those barriers where this is like the
fear within, because then you I had to find something
that outweighed my fear, and once I did, it was
just like.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, enrolling, well, was that thing that outweighed your fear?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
Well, the fact that what I figured out where my
traumas came from and where I kind of broke it
all the way down to where it was just lack
a communication. And my mom's like she was not that
she I don't think she was unwilling, but I think
her trauma away on her so much that you don't
really know how to let these things go. It's kind
of like her, and it's pretty much common now, just
not just men, but women too. You don't know how
(34:16):
to have these conversations about the worst thing to happen
to you.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It's not just.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Something you just go randomly talk about. So I get
that and I understood now, so I don't blame her anymore.
I don't hate none of that. But then it been
doing so I was able to let go of so much,
and I was able to add on something to you
and it kind of gave me the perspective of, so,
then that's what I shouldn't do. And then that's what
I started telling them a lot that my kids are
now very openly communicative.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
How old is your son? He's about to be thirteen, thirteen?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
So yeah, Like my perspective is.
Speaker 6 (34:47):
That you don't have to overcomplicate it, like you know
what I mean, Take them on a hike, let them
know before like yo, you turn it into a man.
You and me, we're gonna hike and we're just gonna
talk about like real life, and just ask them, like
what do you know about sex? And then tell them
all of the stuff that like you wish somebody would
have told you and everything, you know, you tell them,
you know what I mean, the you know, it is amazing,
(35:10):
it's great.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I definitely don't lie because it is.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
But then you also tell them, you know about protection
and consequences, and you know, one one night can lead
to you know what I mean, eighteen years or more
of commitment, and just have a real conversation, you know
what I mean, and let him ask you questions and
just go from there. But I think it's just initiating
the conversation. The conversation might not be just at one time,
(35:36):
it might be a continuation, but you know, just take
them outside. You know, the I shared something with the group,
the alchemy of initiation, right, And so I think why
it's so taboo and why these conversations are not happening
is because we got away from one community. Then also
like sending the children out to you know, face some
(35:56):
form of death and initiate them into society, because it
would always be different people in the society that will
talk about different things. So you would have somebody, you
know what I mean, whether it was an aunt or whatever,
they can talk about that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Now we take on all.
Speaker 6 (36:09):
Of the roles that a whole village would handle. And
so that's and then if we didn't have the conversations
growing up, I think that's where the uneasiness happens.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
I look at my life and over the course of
the last couple of years, initiating these conversations with my
mom to work on healing that relationship. And why you
want to have the conversation with your kid because it
is extremely challenging for the kid to go and have
adult conversations with the parent if they didn't grow up
(36:41):
having that. So you know, just for the fact that
once your kid grows up, you're gonna want him to
come and talk to you. And that's only going to
happen if he sees if you're putting that in him.
And that's already you know what I'm saying, A process
that's happening.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Oh, you know what, I can go and talk to dad.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
So I think that, you know, whatever the uneasiness is
is just knowing that this is something that I need
to do because the fruit, like I'm just planning to see,
is going to sprout in something beautiful later on. But
at least, you know what I'm saying, I did my part.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
I think Keith tapped into what I really what I'm
using right, First of all, consent and things like that
for me, vulnerability spoke about vulnerability. I noticed the more
vulnerable I am with my son and open and honest, right,
he responds better to that and he comes from a
real place. The second thing is, like you said, continued conversations.
(37:38):
So with me and my son, it's not a one time,
hour long conversation. It's about Okay, here's a little bit
of it. Here's what's going on, here's what right, repercussions
and connections and all that is, and then another time
we'll talk about right. It was about other sexual acts, right,
oral and different things like that, touching and things like that,
(38:01):
and how you can affect a young woman. I was
raised by a bunch of aunts. I have maybe three
hundred first girl cousins, right, So for me, respecting women
was always top of my list. I loved my grandma
didn't have a mom. Then, you know, just all my
aunts who are like a mom to me, really set
my respect for women and then consent and things like that.
(38:24):
But I think that's you. We really tapped into it
when you'd said, you know, just it's a continuous conversation,
and I think once we establish that, it'll be much
easier when the harder conversations start coming, because, like you said,
it was difficult for me to go to somebody else older.
I have one aunt who lives in Palm Mill, and
she and I have open conversation and I can tell
(38:45):
her anything. So because we established that when I was
a kid, it's much easier for me to do that now.
So that's what I want with my son, you know,
and I explained that to him, I said, I want
us to be able to do that on a regular basis.
Whatever it is, you know, judgment, you know, I'll tell you.
But at the end of the day, like you said,
Dale listen or Dale won't listen.
Speaker 6 (39:05):
So yeah, and I will say too, it's imperative and
important to have the conversation as early as possible because
not only are they already getting in doctornated with like
movies and stuff, but the stuff is in cartoons, like
it's some wild stuff, like if you're not paying attention,
(39:27):
like yo, what is this? So you want to be
able to like counteract because whatever they're watching on the
screen is programming them a certain way and that might
not necessarily be healthy. So you want to be able to, like,
you know what I mean, have that conversation where like, oh,
you're the authority, you know what I'm saying, and so
I'm gonna listen to you and explain to them like
(39:49):
that is you know, a way.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
But this is also an option, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, it's so funny, you said, Beca's literally yesterday did
first time my wife and growing up even to this day,
my mom and Dad would always fast forward any sexual
scenes on the movies, and so I've been doing that
in both my children's life. And she's like, you know,
you got to stop doing that because you're already demonizing
as if that's bad or that you're uncomfortable having the conversation.
(40:18):
And it was as simple as my someone didn't watch
Deadpool the first one and there's a lot of sexual
scenes and I was.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Like, no, no, no, I'm too young. And my wife's like, yo.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
He's he's seen it in the video games and the
other things that's around him anyways, So you might as
well just show him that you're comfortable with it, and
to come multiple times. It's not one conversation you're done,
move on, but to like just normalize, like, hey, there's
multiple ways that this act is being expressed. But if
(40:49):
I don't show up to him, then he's gonna learn
from a very harmful notion of healthy or unhealthy relationship,
you know.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
And it's also the forbidden fruit like aspect. So if like,
you know, you're fast and fast forwarding and it's forbidden,
it's like, oh, I'm gonna go seek that out a
lot more versus you know, if you go to certain
countries and the parents like give their kids.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Alcohol to taste.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
The statistics show that they're less likely to be alcoholics
to go and drink. And so if you're talking to
them about sex and they know that it's a thing
and it's not like something hidden that I need to
go discover, because at the end of the day, like
we're going to go and discover it's twenty twenty six.
Your kids can find anything they want on their phone
and so can't like hide anything from them.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, this has been first off for me, sitting down
in the beginning till now I feel a lot lighter.
And this has been such a profound community we've co
created together because that's the point of circle and men
coming together and having taboo conversations that shouldn't be taboo.
(41:57):
And I just really want to thank each and every
one of you for your willingness to just be honest
in our circles and in knowing how much I see
myself reflecting each one of your stories and just the
practical things that you've shared, I've tooken home with me.
So just in closing, any final remarks on any final
(42:19):
advice you would want to give, fathers or just parents
in general that may have this conditioned mind saying don't
do this, but like you said, like forbidden fruit, you're
gonna want to do it, especially as a dude or hey,
it's multiple conversations or the biggest thing I keep hearing
is just be present in your child's life and that presence.
(42:40):
We're not gonna get it perfect, but that presence will
allow them to at least feel comfortable in asking. But
just in closing any final thoughts, I.
Speaker 7 (42:48):
Would say that be present. Have these conversations normalize the conversation.
And a lot of times us as parents, we're not ready,
but we should have learned that since we weren't ready
for them to crawl, we weren't ready for them to walk, right,
we weren't ready for their first day of school, so
we won't ready. We won't be ready or you won't
be ready for the first day you talk about sex,
(43:11):
or the first day they had sex, or the first
day they maybe they took, you know, drugs or something.
But once you have these conversations, it makes it that
much easier. So you know, it's not about your timing,
it's about being present and noticing the cues and you know,
being ready for that when that time hits.
Speaker 6 (43:30):
I would just say, like to know that everything that
you do or don't do is going to have an
effect on your child and the relationships going forward. So
if you're having these conversations and you present it in
a shameful way and you make the child feel bad,
they're going to carry that on into future relationships and
how they feel about it. But if you present it
in a way where like, hey, this is a healthy
(43:51):
thing and they feel positive about it, that's going to
help their relationship. So everything like it's the trickle effect.
So just realizing that whatever you do or don't don't
do is going to affect your child and every relationship
they have going forward.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
I think what worked best for me was once I
realized that it's like a tree. You know you plan
to see You're not gonna sit there and watch it
grow until the fruit comes out, but you know it's
going to grow, and when the fruit comes, you know
when it's ready. So I believe it's what I do
is create the scenario instead of waiting for the moment,
but having that patience where it might take a little
(44:27):
bit of time you don't know, but I think that's okay,
because then the reward is ultimate. So creating a scenario
instead of waiting for a moment, I think, if you can,
if you have the opportunity, I would take advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Then the wise soul, thanks.
Speaker 8 (44:44):
I would say. I would suggest to these parents be
brave and approach it with kindness and love and an
open heart and open ears. You can put yourself in
that position, you know, having that adult conversation where the
child is difficult, but with kindness and vulnerability, I think
a lot could be said and heard.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
And just.
Speaker 8 (45:08):
Yeah, I speak from the heart.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Well that's how we will end this conversation. I will
speak from the heart and honestly, authentically tell each and
every one of you that I love you dearly.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I thank you. I'm like in the middle.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I feel like I wasn't a very beautiful initiation ritual
therapy session, and so thank you all for who you
are and who you are ever becoming and uh and
I can't wait for folks to hear this and watch this.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael through It,
a podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media and the Prince Group.
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What are the psychos Father's pass down that son.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Left being a man was holding it all together.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I'm learning how to.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Let go this space to find the power to heal
and transform.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Mike Dela Rocha.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
Welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Some men were never taught how to talk about sex,
and when silence becomes the teacher, boys end up learning
from the wrong places. Welcome to sacred lessons on Mike
Dela Rocha. Today's episode is different from our usual format.
Instead of one guest, I'm sitting with several brothers who
have been consistently showing up to the Dina Heels Men's
(00:44):
Circle for.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
More than a year now.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We've been gathering every two weeks, men from different generations, backgrounds,
and life experiences coming together to talk honestly about what
it means to be men, fathers, sons and partners. This
circle is part of the work of Dina Heels, a
community initiative supporting families impacted by the Eating fire and
(01:08):
Alta Dina and Pasadena through culturally responsive healing, trauma and
formed care and mutual aid. Out of that work grew
something powerful, a space where men can talk about the
things we were never taught how to talk about. And
today we're exploring one of the biggest silences that I
and many men grew up with sex or to be
(01:32):
more specific, how do we talk to our sons about sex,
consent and responsibility, because the truth is that many of
us grow up without ever having those conversations at all.
All right, my brothers, Well, I'm trying to get comfortable
(01:55):
with this situation set up. But first I just want
to say Beon and Been and my brother Keith and
my brother jose thank you all for enriching my life.
I've learned so much about what it means to be
a person, what it means to be a man, by being.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
In space with all of you.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And two weeks ago when we sat down, I was
asking one, I would love for those those outside.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Of our circle to know what it is that we do.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And when I was asking you all, like what is
a conversation we should have almost unanius, we were like,
let's talk about sex and whether it's my own Catholic upbringing, colonization, whatever,
my own fear my mom listening to this podcast. I
just never had the conversation about sex with my dad,
(02:47):
my mom, anybody. And as a father of a young
boy who's about to be thirteen. This is very deep
in personally, because I am sweating just even asking the question.
So I will open it up with this simple question.
Did anyone ever talk to you about sex when you
(03:07):
were growing up and growing up? And if not, how
did you learn about it? You know, I opened it up.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
No, I was never talked to about this, but growing
up in the father of this home, I think it's
more difficult for a mother to talk to a son.
I think she threw me a flyer that had a
condom in it and took off to Vegas and me
and my kids, mom, well my girlfriend at the time,
we're just sitting there.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
So that was my conversation here.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, here it is.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
That's more than I had. I never got no condom
thrown at me. So even just saying the word condom,
I start to get which is not healthy, because why
should we be afraid of a conversation about our bodies
anyone else?
Speaker 6 (03:50):
Yeah, So, no, no one ever talked to me that
was an adult about sex. So I had an older
cousin that was two years older than me, and we
were spending a night with each other. I remember he
was taking like sex ed, So that was the first
time he was telling me about like masturbation. But like
my sex ad came from late night HBO trying to
like watch in between the scrambles of the channel. But
(04:13):
nobody that was like a relative or adult around having
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And then so your teacher of sex, like many of us,
was cinemax.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Cinemax HBO.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
You know, at the time, you could find like pornography
magazines and stuff around, so you would look for that stuff.
Speaker 7 (04:33):
Yeah, for me, I would say nobody. I learned in
high school. But I was introduced to sex at a
young age outside of you know and a self exploration
and things, you know. But I would say I learned
through what I know now through the same thing HBO.
(04:56):
There was a lady back in the day, her name
was doctor Ruth, and that's kind of like what I learned.
What I learned and how to explore and things like that.
But most of the things was self taught. And but
my exposure to sex was through family and you know,
being a youth and then just being tossed in playing
(05:16):
house and that's how I was exposed.
Speaker 8 (05:19):
To it, just from hearing from everyone. I have a
unique experience where I was actually this.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Conversation was given to me by your dad, by my father.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (05:29):
So I'm the youngest of a large family, so all
my elder all my siblings have already gone through it,
so they had practice to tell me. But in the
conversations it was always like scatholeen, Like, you know, I
remember asking about what sex is and being told, oh,
you know, that's holding hands or that's kissing, Like what
does that mean? Like what's a kiss? You know, because
(05:49):
it was like just a plain kiss and then there's
a tongue what like, not knowing about anything, but it
was a candid conversation that was always brought back Okay,
I noticed what's going on, you know, Like so it
was an open conversation. So I guess that's a very
unique experience.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, I was, Deann.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You said something that triggered a response to my body
when you said you you learned about sex through plain house,
and you know, in our in our conversations that we've
been having together. My first intimate encounter was plain house
(06:31):
with a cousin where I felt like I didn't know
if there was a consensual I was too young, and
so therefore my my first interaction with another intimate relationship
wasn't necessarily a healthy one, I think reflecting back, and
(06:51):
that therefore informed the way that I had relationships with
other women in my life. And I wonder if you
can share because in the absence of a father, or
really a father that talked to us, it sounds like
that at least four of us here about sex, consent,
healthy relationships, and we are learning from these experiences, if
(07:14):
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And so you.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Brought it up, I wonder if you can elaborate a
little bit more about that.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
Well, that family member has been passed away, but it
was a situation where my mom passed. My mom passed
when I was six. My dad was in Massachusetts basically
studying and things like that, and I was raised with
a lot of cousins and aunts that basically had a daycare.
(07:42):
And so my experience was, Oh, this is what you're
supposed to do, and this is how you play house,
and you're supposed to put this there. And so that's
kind of how my first experience in, Wow, what's this
happening with my body?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Right?
Speaker 7 (07:58):
And this is normal? And then that became addicted to
that sensation, and that was kind of my introduction to
it if that yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
What about you, like.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Obviously for learning from others, like why do you think
it's so hard for us men to have a conversation
with peers and or children about sex?
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Then in order for us to develop a specific self control,
a level of self control because of the unknown when it.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Comes to I mean not just.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Sex, but specifically sex that carries like emotions or like
a will or a want behind its own like almost
if its own nature. So then your decisions become based
on something you feel that you don't know what you're feeling,
so you don't really know or I never really learned
how to navigate through that, so then you kind of
go towards what you're feeling instead of what you know
(08:51):
because you've either learned or somebody taught you, which typically
you only learn that soon when somebody teaches you. And
I know, we start having these urges or what what
likes in the sense before ten years old, so I
could imagine or I could.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Only assume, especially for me, like if it was never taught.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
So for years we go with these cravings or these ones,
not knowing how to go about it.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Then how is that affecting our everyday choices.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
And is it Yeah, I don't think that it is
difficult to talk to other men about it. And so
like where I grew up in the hood in La,
it was all about how many can you get? The numbers,
and so it wasn't a conversation about like safety or
how to do it. It's just you know, you got
in there and you figured it out. So that's pretty
(09:39):
much my experience. I think the conversation is, then how
do you talk about you know, the safety and the
effects of bonding with someone and then you know what
that can do to your psyche and you know it
can be addictive, but then also having a conversation like yo,
it actually is an amazing act and just you know,
(10:01):
how do you in the most healthy way engage with
that and not let it be something that you know,
because anything could become an addiction. And so I think
a lot of my peers that was more so an addiction,
and the culture talked about you know, it's all about
the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, and so then you
have to in a sense have the conversations later on
(10:22):
to then get a better to get a healthier mindset
when it comes to you know, sex and the physical acts.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I mean, I want to just sit in this and
anyone can chime in. But I had similar experience where
you are more of a man the more at least
as as a straight man. The more women I had
sex with, the more manly I became. And it was
in hindsight now it's a very destructive way of being.
(10:52):
But again, in the absence of a conversation, then that
becomes the dominant narrative. And therefore, if you're not going
up the ladder like you share, then somehow my masculinity
is gone.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
And I wonder if was that.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
A similar thing that the four of you all had,
or was a different interaction or.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah, for me, it was too, not that I engaged
in doing so in my youth, but it was. It
was like an audious thing, kind of like an unspoken truth,
even though it was spoken, almost never directly. But it's
like we all know what we know, and you don't
really have to talk about it, but when you do,
the next person would acknowledge because it's it's pretty much
the norm.
Speaker 7 (11:31):
Well, I'm from Belize, right, so in Belize, the culture,
the music, everything's around sex. You just like Jamaicans and
things like that. You drink things because the better you
can perform, the more manly you are.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
And when I finally moved in with my dad the age
of fifteen, he wondered if I was gay because I
never brought girls home or when he was there. So
my point to prove to him was, Okay, I'm going
to have sex. And I had sex in his bed
and he caught me with a girl having sex on
his bed to prove to him, Nope, I just don't
bring them at home. But again it's something that's celebrated. Right,
(12:08):
you're not a man if you don't have the numbers,
you're not you know, the dance everything like that is
very sexual. And so for me that was my Even
what you drink and how you drink it to this day,
you know, there's a lot of Caribbean people who think, oh,
I'm going to drink. There's a drink call with bitters,
you know, before you perform, along with other alcoholic drinks.
(12:29):
You know, so I can be better in bed and
that shows how madly you are.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
How is that this is for any of us?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
But that notion that seeped within the dominant society that
we're supposed to take pills or watch porn or do
any of this stuff so that we can perform better.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
To me, it's.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
It's very destructive for me because then it's like, well,
what if that's not what I want to do, But
I'm supposed to to like live up to that. And
I wonder as as all men of color, it's also
different because we're having a meta color conversation. So I'm
also clear, like why passing. I'm a white passing person,
but white men have a different understanding in this society.
But how has this notion of performance number of women,
(13:19):
if you're a stray man or just whatever, how has
that impacted the way that you see yourself in relationships
with other people.
Speaker 8 (13:27):
I think there's a sense of bravado if you go
back to the number thing.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (13:31):
Yeah, So in the eighties we had the sex ed classes,
and I remember being called out as an a seventh
grade or eighth grader with the banana and the condom
in front of all my peers and having that option
to either take it responsibly or start clowning. So, I mean,
I thought it was a good time to be responsible,
and it did a proper way, and that set the
path going forward. So but being able to approach this
(13:53):
in a safety way of my health and then but
also building like that conversation I had with my father
of black, Oh, you got to be you should be
in love or at least have good feelings for this person,
you know, let them down easy when you're going to
be leaving them. So it was a delegate balance to
to like, well, but then when you're at the homies,
you want to have big numbers. But then you don't
want to be soft, right because then you're a lover
(14:15):
and then you're not a fighter. So it's a very
delicate situation. But in my own experience, it was a
way to develop who I am and it makes it mine.
So how I get to love my wife is mine
and I don't care how you guys or anyone outside
of my circle shows that. But I think in that
trajectory or I was able to develop who I am
(14:36):
because I had guyd Grails, you know what I mean, Like,
I had the support system, and it was a conversation
that wasn't taboo. Although within you mentioned Catholicism. Yes, that's
very taboo, right, But then you just want to procreate
to have more souls. But then in the reality of
being in this capitalist society, like kids are expensive, and
then have that knowledge growing up to be like fifteen
(14:57):
and like oh my gosh, like condoms are this price,
diapers for the next eighteen years or this price? And
that was actually something that I came understanding how to
approach it. So with the homies gonna be like, oh,
he this you know, so and so wants to be
with him, but he doesn't want to do it because
I was like, no, I don't want to risk that.
I have other plans.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
That was my experience, and I know when we sat
down two weeks ago, I asked you, is there a
question that I should ask in this in I don't
know if it was you, Dann or someone said, ask
us who taught us how to put on a condom?
Speaker 8 (15:31):
Yeah, that was a that was a big step, right,
And this was by teenagers that came down from the
from the high school to teach the middle school. So
it was a lot easier. And uh, you know, I
think now doing presentations and pds, you kind of pick
out who you're going to I don't know, not pick on,
but like that's an advocate right, knowing like maybe this
(15:51):
woman was looking out for me, you know, like, oh,
he looks like he's active, you know, he's let's teach him.
Speaker 7 (15:58):
Yeah, I just want to say I think I think
that this group has really helped me in a significant way.
Where when that that that moment just happened for me
recently with me and my son right driving down the
street leaving work, and he noticed a girl and he
slouched back in the car and things like that, and
(16:19):
that's when it hit to me like, Okay, now he's
noticing girls, right, And I always wanted to have that
conversation because I didn't have that conversation with my dad.
So for me using condoms and things was in high
school and being afraid. I think my science teacher did
a great job of teaching me about STDs and things
like that. And I think for me, the conversation presenting
(16:40):
itself organically.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
I spoke to you.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Were you and you know, I'm sorry for interjective, but
I'm at this point literally in my life, I have
to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, and so you see, you're with your son, he
slouches back, he sees another woman, you're like, oh, I
know that sign correct. So then that was a trigger
for you. What did you how did you ask or
how did what did you say?
Speaker 7 (17:06):
So it took some time for me to build up
to it. I felt like a kick in my gut.
And I always thought that I was going to be
ready for when this conversation happened, and I thought it
was going to be later in his life. I didn't
think it was going to come at fourteen years old.
And so for me, it was kind of like, Okay,
how do I bring it up in this conversation? How
(17:27):
do I talk to him about it? I didn't want
to see like the nerdy dad or the you know
that he's taking fun of I'm making fun of him,
And so I did tell my girlfriend that, you know,
because she was going to wait for snowboarding, you'll see
condoms around the place, but just no, it's not mine, right, Like,
(17:48):
I'm going to be talking to my son about this
because you know, he's starting to reach that age. And
I think I think a lot of failures sometimes within
my circle of friends was when that started happening, as
we're afraid to talk about it and we think, oh,
they're just going to learn on their own or from
the school, and I didn't want that to happen for
my son and I. And so what I did was
(18:09):
we went out to lunch, my son, myself, and my
cousin and we were just walking around and I looked
him in the eye and we were laughing, and I said,
I have a question for you. And I said and
I said, both of you, And I said, I called
his name, and I said, are you thinking about have
(18:29):
you been noticing girls? And he says the dad And
I says, oh, okay, So what do you guys know
about sex? Do you know how to put on a condom?
You know? Do you know what this means? And he
said no, And for me that was okay. This opened
this door to have a conversation. And I said, okay,
all jokes aside, and it's not going to be weird.
But you know, next weekend, when you're home with me,
(18:53):
because he lives with me and his mom, I said,
we'll talk about sex. I'll show you guys how to
put on a can. You know, we're going to go
over the whole thing. And so he was very receptive
to it. But I think just the environment that we
were in and just being light and authentic and just
let him know, Hey, I'm not coming from a joking
(19:13):
or the geeky dad's side, and I'm generally asking you
this question was one of other things. In fact, last
night it was very interesting because he's now with his mom,
but no too.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sorry.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
Monday night, we were talking on a rug just driving home,
and we're talking again about the subject of sex, and
he was letting me know that kids in his grades
are already sexually active, you know, he's fourteen and so,
and we talk about misinformation and why I just I'm
very open with him, and I speak with him about
(19:52):
I don't want to give him misinformation because there's so
many information out there, and kids look on the internet
for you know, guidance, And he said, I know that.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
That's why I.
Speaker 7 (20:03):
Educate my friends when they're saying wrong things. And then
he informed me that at the school he went to,
there's a young person that's no longer there, a young
girl who there was a video of her giving oral
to another kid, you know, So it's really prevalent in
the high schools. And I think sometimes as parents, we
don't want to believe our kids are sexually active or
(20:26):
they are around drugs and different things like that. But
I'm glad that I was able to talk to him.
We made a night of it. We went to have
some frozen yogurt we grabbed. We went to the store
and he bought a cucumber. Well, we bought a cucumber,
and my cousin who is twenty six, and my son
(20:46):
who's thirteen, both got nervous because we're buying one cucumber.
And I said, listen, nobody know why we're buying this cucumber.
It could be for a salad, it could be for whatever,
but we know what it's for, right. But we bought
a things to like CANNESDA and stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But you bought the cuban because you're going to teach
them how to.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
Put a correct on it, and so I just make
it fun, right, and gave them the rapper, had them
learn how to open it and play around with it.
And their first reaction was like, oh, this is slimy,
you know, like why so? Like why is there liquid
in it and so? And how to properly put it on? So?
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And then will wait hold on.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Thirteen about to be fourteen year old son and then
twenty six year old.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
They both didn't know how to use the condom.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
Yes, so well my son is fourteen going on fifteen
in October, but my twenty six year old cousin, right,
I believe. I don't know this to be true, but
I believe, you know, it's the whole concept of, oh,
I'm allergic to condoms. You have so many men who
joke about that and as a way not to use condoms.
(21:54):
But for my thing is, it's not only about preventing
you from having a baby, right, it's STDs and this thing.
So I no one properly taught him how to put
it on, and his thing to me was okay, well
I was told that you're supposed to have air in
(22:14):
it or not have air in it something like that,
some wrong information. And so I had to show him
the proper technique of pension a tip and how do
you put it on and all this other stuff and
why it's important. And then you know, a lot of
men joke about not wearing condoms because you don't have feeling,
you know, or desensitize you, and it's like, no, they're different,
(22:34):
you know, condoms, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Anybody else And this is mostly for me, and thank you,
Dion for sharing, but other tips you have for fathers
just in terms of how do we talk to our
sons about sex, Like obviously what I hear from you,
Dian is you just organically naturally bringing up And something
that I'm very aware is like my son's going to
(23:03):
react to how I'm my energy I'm putting off. So
if I'm nervous about it and sweating, He's gonna be
nervous and sweating. But if I just calmly, just not
as a joke, which is like in passing, Hey man,
you know you into women or or who just into
a person and you know, But any other tips or
have you guys talked to your children about it?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I think it's.
Speaker 8 (23:24):
Staying like I want to be involved, right, like I
want to have a conversation, saying that he was looking
forward to that conversation, right, And I can imagine there's
some that don't want to have a conversation. So it's
just staying curious in their life and being there for them.
I think that's the most important. And reading cues right,
like being aware, I think that's huge, And that's just
(23:46):
showing up every day.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
And then I'll answer it from the perspective of somebody
that didn't have an active father, and you know what
I'm saying, just just if he was there and having
that conversation, how much I would have appreciated. So from
the perspective of like the child, just have it like
however it has because he's going to remember that. And
you know what I'm saying, You're going to be implanting
(24:10):
some some wisdom versus waiting. And then you know because
at the end of the day, like your son looks
up to you and like whatever you say, even if
you think it goes out of one in one ear
and out the other, Like, he's going to remember whatever
it is that you teach him. So I would just say,
you know what I mean, have the conversation.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, planned to see I think for me.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
Unfortunately for not having been there for my kids, I
think the bigger and the same for me too. A
big question is the possibilities of what can of the
outcome if you don't have the conversation. So my daughter
right now has my granddaughter, and she was young, and
now the father is deceased after my granddaughter was three months.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
It's overdose.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Obviously I'm assuming he didn't he wasn't fortunate enough to tell us.
Come my daughter didn't have those conversations. So it's like,
now she's a single mother, she's twenty one years old.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
And.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Like, that's what the possible outcome. And I'm assuming that
these conversations can make a difference.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You know, I'm not saying they for sure will, but
like just being.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
Conscious about the things that might go away that we
could probably prevent, like having that option now while we
have the option, because or you can be.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
In my shoes now and not have that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
One of the things that I really have tooken from
our biweekly men's circle is that we all come with
all of our experience and we don't judge any of us.
In fact, we embrace each other in very profound ways.
And something that I've found enlightening, because I don't feel.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Like the only one, is that we live in a.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Culture that teaches us as man that everything is for
our benefit. We're supposed to control everything, the land, women, everything,
which is what leads to a rape culture, right. And
something we don't talk enough I think about publicly is
the fact that when we talk about these issues of consent,
it's hard for a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Of us men to know what the real.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Meaning of consent is, because we were taking advantage of
as children ourselves. And if we say, hey, you know
I was molested or hey, I was traumatized for whatever experience,
somehow I'm less of a man. So then we just
keep it in and therefore we have a hard time
teaching consent because we don't know because it was never
taught to us. And I'm not saying in words, I'm
(26:39):
saying the way we were taking advantage of as young kids.
And so I wonder if that resonates with you or
if that's similar your experience or other experiences you've seen
a man, just in terms of how we've been raised.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Definitely, I believe haardly that we not only have to
overcome our fears or our inabilities and our traumas, but
those of our past generations. Like whatever they pass songs,
what ultimately becomes ours. Whatever they couldn't provide or teach
us with, we would have to learn, and then we
would have to know that they didn't do it. So
(27:13):
I'm assuming that for me myself, I know for sure
the blame was always pointing the finger at first, like
my dad not being there my mom not showing affection
and all this, but then learning at the same time
or afterwards actually that they didn't have that, So how
were they going to teach me?
Speaker 4 (27:28):
So being able to.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Break that cycle, it's going to always weigh more on
the next generation in each passing generation until it doesn't.
So that's where I stand on and that's where I
think I work towards acknowledging these like the simple things,
because it's these the safe space, like you said, like
just being aware and having that providing that safe space
where they can just talk about it, like kind of
(27:50):
how you said, I just passing by like oh this
is happening right now, kind of be open enough to
just be comfortable. But then how do you get to
that space? And it's not going to begin with this
specific converse is going to be like what's your favorite counter?
You know, and it starts with it from way outside
of that field, but then it always navigates back to
the opportunities are this. So then just creating that safe
(28:11):
space and allowing any conversation to ensure I think is
one hopefully I still have a chance to talk to
my youngest about these things. So that's why I'm working
towards right now because she is thirteen two.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Anyone else, how do you all talk about issues of
consent or respect with your children or other men in
your lives.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
I think the consent topic is fairly new, right. I
think within the past few years the word consent has
been thrown around. So I think growing up it was
looking for cues like body cues, body language, or looking
for that like that in right and then until you
hear the no and you could proceed forward. But with
(28:56):
the children now, and I've noticed it with other toddlers
and youngsters new parents, is is it okay if I
change a diaper?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Now?
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Can I pick you up? Can I give you a hug?
So it's like immediately starting that left field conversation, so
that consent is already being planted in or just knocking
on my kid's door, can I come in now?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You know?
Speaker 8 (29:16):
So it's that consent. I think the larger issue can
really lead to that one specific importance of having that consent.
So I think it's a daily practice until you need
to have a very specific conversation about it, because until then,
if you have if you're not talking about consent, all
of a sudden like, what, this is a whole new
concept for me.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, And I think what I'm hearing from this is
obviously this entire conversation and what we're doing is really
a conversation about power, right, and who has power and
who does it in this society with all the different
identities we do carry. And that's where I think for me,
this conversation of sex in terms of a lot of
conversations is hard for me because I never had it
(30:01):
number one, but number two, it was almost like, well,
sex is a form of power, and we as men
have particular kind of power, but when we're indoctrinated that
everything is for our benefit, and then that's an unhealthy
way of looking at things, you know what I'm saying. Therefore,
why should you have a conversation with sex when that's
(30:24):
for your pleasure?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
And so I've been trying to just really sit with
this question of like how to have a conversation about
sex when it's deeper than just sex.
Speaker 8 (30:34):
It goes back to what you were saying about generational right,
It's going to be harder because it was three four
generations back that didn't have the conversation. So why do
I need to have it now. But a lot of
times my philosophy is it ends with me, right, because
we want them to move forward without all that luggage.
So I'm going to have a hard conversation. I'm going
to because it has to stop somewhere, And it's like
(30:56):
a it's a choice that we make to be like,
it's gonna stop here. When do you have that new child?
And it's like, eh, this is Brandon beginning. It was
precious and I get to like imprint on this child
as being of course you want to start with a
pure heart right and keep going every day.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Yeah, I think for me it was since I didn't
have a father, I so I was always my mom
in different relationships, but specifically her being the.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Dominant household, head of household, and she.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Never communicated, not about anything directly except what she wanted
from me or what to do that I don't know
about anything from her past. Wasn't until I was well
into my twenties that do those conversations even existed. And
I kind of had to make a demand, I stand
on business to get her to even talk about these things,
what her upbringing was like and what she had to
navigate through to get to where she was at and
(31:48):
help me understand these things. Because I had so much
resentment and hate and I didn't know where it came from.
I didn't know how to get rid of it. So
I kind of transfer that concept or ideal. So make
sure I didn't do it. I mean I made great,
many mistakes, but one thing I always did was communicate
about everything, like what am I doing today, I'm walking
to the train.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
You know who were talking to? How did I learn Spanish?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
I didn't know Spanish until I was over twenty, and
I did it by talking to I asked men and
spoke Spanish. For some reason, men were more like, you're
an idiot, you know Spanish and you know something like that,
And I was a vibe I got a lot of times, so.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
I was like, okay, So I always asked.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
I would go to grocery stores and go to the
produce and I see a bunch of a bunch of
older women that they're doing, I'm on the train asking question.
So I would have these random conversations with my kids.
But because I know it's like, if you get what
you put in right, you get out what you put in.
So if I wanted them to have random conversations with me,
and it's a big conversation between me and my kids.
Mom n Now, I was like, you want them to
be vulnerable and open up to you, but yet you're
(32:48):
not showing them your vulnerability, so you got to kind
of give and I'd been kind of using that and
they do.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I mean, I got to sit back.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Sometimes I don't get to live with them, so I
have to sit back and wait or keep living my
life as I can when that phone rings and they're
calling me about something so random, and I'm like, Okay,
this is what I was waiting for. And it's been
happening more and more lately. You know, they still have
their resentment because of the time I wasn't there and
for many other reasons, but for some reason because of
those random conversations. Now I get to hear their random conversations,
(33:17):
their stories and what they went through and how they're
they're asking me how to go about situations that they
know they don't know, and I think, like you said,
that's I do want to break that barrier where they're
going to pass it on to the next generation, because
that's it gets real scary when you got one generation
did another generation after you, and I'm statistically the way
things going, I'm going to see another generation after me.
(33:39):
So I think it becomes really important and and you
kind of remove those barriers where this is like the
fear within, because then you I had to find something
that outweighed my fear, and once I did, it was
just like.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, enrolling, well, was that thing that outweighed your fear?
Speaker 5 (33:55):
Well, the fact that what I figured out where my
traumas came from and where I kind of broke it
all the way down to where it was just lack
a communication. And my mom's like she was not that
she I don't think she was unwilling, but I think
her trauma away on her so much that you don't
really know how to let these things go. It's kind
of like her, and it's pretty much common now, just
not just men, but women too. You don't know how
(34:16):
to have these conversations about the worst thing to happen
to you.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It's not just.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Something you just go randomly talk about. So I get
that and I understood now, so I don't blame her anymore.
I don't hate none of that. But then it been
doing so I was able to let go of so much,
and I was able to add on something to you
and it kind of gave me the perspective of, so,
then that's what I shouldn't do. And then that's what
I started telling them a lot that my kids are
now very openly communicative.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
How old is your son? He's about to be thirteen, thirteen?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
So yeah, Like my perspective is.
Speaker 6 (34:47):
That you don't have to overcomplicate it, like you know
what I mean, Take them on a hike, let them
know before like yo, you turn it into a man.
You and me, we're gonna hike and we're just gonna
talk about like real life, and just ask them, like
what do you know about sex? And then tell them
all of the stuff that like you wish somebody would
have told you and everything, you know, you tell them,
you know what I mean, the you know, it is amazing,
(35:10):
it's great.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I definitely don't lie because it is.
Speaker 6 (35:13):
But then you also tell them, you know about protection
and consequences, and you know, one one night can lead
to you know what I mean, eighteen years or more
of commitment, and just have a real conversation, you know
what I mean, and let him ask you questions and
just go from there. But I think it's just initiating
the conversation. The conversation might not be just at one time,
(35:36):
it might be a continuation, but you know, just take
them outside. You know, the I shared something with the group,
the alchemy of initiation, right, And so I think why
it's so taboo and why these conversations are not happening
is because we got away from one community. Then also
like sending the children out to you know, face some
(35:56):
form of death and initiate them into society, because it
would always be different people in the society that will
talk about different things. So you would have somebody, you
know what I mean, whether it was an aunt or whatever,
they can talk about that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Now we take on all.
Speaker 6 (36:09):
Of the roles that a whole village would handle. And
so that's and then if we didn't have the conversations
growing up, I think that's where the uneasiness happens.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
You know.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
I look at my life and over the course of
the last couple of years, initiating these conversations with my
mom to work on healing that relationship. And why you
want to have the conversation with your kid because it
is extremely challenging for the kid to go and have
adult conversations with the parent if they didn't grow up
(36:41):
having that. So you know, just for the fact that
once your kid grows up, you're gonna want him to
come and talk to you. And that's only going to
happen if he sees if you're putting that in him.
And that's already you know what I'm saying, A process
that's happening.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Oh, you know what, I can go and talk to dad.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
So I think that, you know, whatever the uneasiness is
is just knowing that this is something that I need
to do because the fruit, like I'm just planning to see,
is going to sprout in something beautiful later on. But
at least, you know what I'm saying, I did my part.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
I think Keith tapped into what I really what I'm
using right, First of all, consent and things like that
for me, vulnerability spoke about vulnerability. I noticed the more
vulnerable I am with my son and open and honest, right,
he responds better to that and he comes from a
real place. The second thing is, like you said, continued conversations.
(37:38):
So with me and my son, it's not a one time,
hour long conversation. It's about Okay, here's a little bit
of it. Here's what's going on, here's what right, repercussions
and connections and all that is, and then another time
we'll talk about right. It was about other sexual acts, right,
oral and different things like that, touching and things like that,
(38:01):
and how you can affect a young woman. I was
raised by a bunch of aunts. I have maybe three
hundred first girl cousins, right, So for me, respecting women
was always top of my list. I loved my grandma
didn't have a mom. Then, you know, just all my
aunts who are like a mom to me, really set
my respect for women and then consent and things like that.
(38:24):
But I think that's you. We really tapped into it
when you'd said, you know, just it's a continuous conversation,
and I think once we establish that, it'll be much
easier when the harder conversations start coming, because, like you said,
it was difficult for me to go to somebody else older.
I have one aunt who lives in Palm Mill, and
she and I have open conversation and I can tell
(38:45):
her anything. So because we established that when I was
a kid, it's much easier for me to do that now.
So that's what I want with my son, you know,
and I explained that to him, I said, I want
us to be able to do that on a regular basis.
Whatever it is, you know, judgment, you know, I'll tell you.
But at the end of the day, like you said,
Dale listen or Dale won't listen.
Speaker 6 (39:05):
So yeah, and I will say too, it's imperative and
important to have the conversation as early as possible because
not only are they already getting in doctornated with like
movies and stuff, but the stuff is in cartoons, like
it's some wild stuff, like if you're not paying attention,
(39:27):
like yo, what is this? So you want to be
able to like counteract because whatever they're watching on the
screen is programming them a certain way and that might
not necessarily be healthy. So you want to be able to, like,
you know what I mean, have that conversation where like, oh,
you're the authority, you know what I'm saying, and so
I'm gonna listen to you and explain to them like
(39:49):
that is you know, a way.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
But this is also an option, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, it's so funny, you said, Beca's literally yesterday did
first time my wife and growing up even to this day,
my mom and Dad would always fast forward any sexual
scenes on the movies, and so I've been doing that
in both my children's life. And she's like, you know,
you got to stop doing that because you're already demonizing
as if that's bad or that you're uncomfortable having the conversation.
(40:18):
And it was as simple as my someone didn't watch
Deadpool the first one and there's a lot of sexual
scenes and I was.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Like, no, no, no, I'm too young. And my wife's like, yo.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
He's he's seen it in the video games and the
other things that's around him anyways, So you might as
well just show him that you're comfortable with it, and
to come multiple times. It's not one conversation you're done,
move on, but to like just normalize, like, hey, there's
multiple ways that this act is being expressed. But if
(40:49):
I don't show up to him, then he's gonna learn
from a very harmful notion of healthy or unhealthy relationship,
you know.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
And it's also the forbidden fruit like aspect. So if like,
you know, you're fast and fast forwarding and it's forbidden,
it's like, oh, I'm gonna go seek that out a
lot more versus you know, if you go to certain
countries and the parents like give their kids.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Alcohol to taste.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
The statistics show that they're less likely to be alcoholics
to go and drink. And so if you're talking to
them about sex and they know that it's a thing
and it's not like something hidden that I need to
go discover, because at the end of the day, like
we're going to go and discover it's twenty twenty six.
Your kids can find anything they want on their phone
and so can't like hide anything from them.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, this has been first off for me, sitting down
in the beginning till now I feel a lot lighter.
And this has been such a profound community we've co
created together because that's the point of circle and men
coming together and having taboo conversations that shouldn't be taboo.
(41:57):
And I just really want to thank each and every
one of you for your willingness to just be honest
in our circles and in knowing how much I see
myself reflecting each one of your stories and just the
practical things that you've shared, I've tooken home with me.
So just in closing, any final remarks on any final
(42:19):
advice you would want to give, fathers or just parents
in general that may have this conditioned mind saying don't
do this, but like you said, like forbidden fruit, you're
gonna want to do it, especially as a dude or hey,
it's multiple conversations or the biggest thing I keep hearing
is just be present in your child's life and that presence.
(42:40):
We're not gonna get it perfect, but that presence will
allow them to at least feel comfortable in asking. But
just in closing any final thoughts, I.
Speaker 7 (42:48):
Would say that be present. Have these conversations normalize the conversation.
And a lot of times us as parents, we're not ready,
but we should have learned that since we weren't ready
for them to crawl, we weren't ready for them to walk, right,
we weren't ready for their first day of school, so
we won't ready. We won't be ready or you won't
be ready for the first day you talk about sex,
(43:11):
or the first day they had sex, or the first
day they maybe they took, you know, drugs or something.
But once you have these conversations, it makes it that
much easier. So you know, it's not about your timing,
it's about being present and noticing the cues and you know,
being ready for that when that time hits.
Speaker 6 (43:30):
I would just say, like to know that everything that
you do or don't do is going to have an
effect on your child and the relationships going forward. So
if you're having these conversations and you present it in
a shameful way and you make the child feel bad,
they're going to carry that on into future relationships and
how they feel about it. But if you present it
in a way where like, hey, this is a healthy
(43:51):
thing and they feel positive about it, that's going to
help their relationship. So everything like it's the trickle effect.
So just realizing that whatever you do or don't don't
do is going to affect your child and every relationship
they have going forward.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
I think what worked best for me was once I
realized that it's like a tree. You know you plan
to see You're not gonna sit there and watch it
grow until the fruit comes out, but you know it's
going to grow, and when the fruit comes, you know
when it's ready. So I believe it's what I do
is create the scenario instead of waiting for the moment,
but having that patience where it might take a little
(44:27):
bit of time you don't know, but I think that's okay,
because then the reward is ultimate. So creating a scenario
instead of waiting for a moment, I think, if you can,
if you have the opportunity, I would take advantage of that.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Then the wise soul, thanks.
Speaker 8 (44:44):
I would say. I would suggest to these parents be
brave and approach it with kindness and love and an
open heart and open ears. You can put yourself in
that position, you know, having that adult conversation where the
child is difficult, but with kindness and vulnerability, I think
a lot could be said and heard.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
And just.
Speaker 8 (45:08):
Yeah, I speak from the heart.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Well that's how we will end this conversation. I will
speak from the heart and honestly, authentically tell each and
every one of you that I love you dearly.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
I thank you. I'm like in the middle.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
I feel like I wasn't a very beautiful initiation ritual
therapy session, and so thank you all for who you
are and who you are ever becoming and uh and
I can't wait for folks to hear this and watch this.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Sacred Lessons is a production of My Heart's Michael through It,
a podcast network, Sacred Lessons Media and the Prince Group.
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