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Two-time Emmy and Three-time NAACP Image Award-winning, television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald interviewed Travis Payne.
The interview serves three main purposes:
-
Inspiration & Career Blueprint
To highlight Travis Payne’s journey from Atlanta dancer to globally recognized choreographer and director working with icons like Michael and Janet Jackson. -
Business of Entertainment
To educate listeners on how creativity (dance, music, performance) intersects with business, branding, and revenue generation. -
Motivation for Entrepreneurs & Creatives
To reinforce themes of persistence, preparation, and leveraging opportunity—aligned with the show’s mission to help audiences “plan their own success story.” [TRAVIS PAYNE | Txt]
🔑 Key Takeaways 1. Success = Preparation + Opportunity + Fearlessness
- Payne emphasizes being constantly ready for opportunities in competitive environments like LA.
- He notes that many people have talent, but lack access and readiness.
➡️ Insight:
Preparedness + courage to engage = career breakthroughs
2. Rejection Is Part of the Process
- He attended multiple auditions daily and expected rejection.
- Thick skin is essential in creative industries.
➡️ Insight:
Expect “no” as part of the path to “yes.”
3. Dance & Music Are Universal and Powerful
- Dance is described as a “universal language” that connects people across cultures.
- He recalls a powerful moment where audiences in conflict came together through music at a Michael Jackson performance. [TRAVIS PAYNE | Txt]
➡️ Insight:
Art has the power to unify where politics cannot.
4. Creativity Must Align with Business Goals
- Payne highlights that choreography and creative direction are not just artistic—they must meet commercial objectives.
- Example: His work on Gap’s “Khakis” campaign helped drive $1B in product sales. [TRAVIS PAYNE | Txt]
➡️ Insight:
If it doesn’t generate value, it’s a hobby—not a business.
5. Michael Jackson as a Blueprint for Branding & Ownership
- Michael Jackson is framed as a case study in:
- Innovation and brand-building
- Long-term thinking (“Will this be cool in 50 years?”)
- Ownership of intellectual property (publishing, rights)
➡️ Insight:
Creative control and ownership drive lasting wealth and influence.
6. Innovation Drives Longevity
- Michael Jackson’s continuous push for originality is cited as the reason his relevance spans generations.
➡️ Insight:
Timeless brands are built on innovation—not imitation.
7. Career Growth Requires Evolution
- Payne progres
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to my show. I'm Rashon McDonald, a host of
Money Making Conversations Masterclass, where we encourage people to stop
reading other people's success stories and start planning your own. Now,
you don't want to miss an episode, so please take
a moment right now to follow or subscribe to Money
Making Conversations Masterclass.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's free.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You can follow me on iHeartRadio, app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your podcast. New Money Making
Conversations Masterclass episodes drop daily. I want to keep you
on alert because my guests provide tips on how you
can uplift your community, improve your financial planning, motivation, or
advice on how to be a successful entrepreneur. Now, let's
(00:38):
get this podcast started. My guess has established himself as
a brand, a world renowned brand, choreographer, director and producer.
In fact, as a dancer. He joined Jan and Jackson's
Rhythm Nation eighteen fourteen world tour in nineteen ninety'all remember
that was she had a little black suit.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Don't you know? A fan? Still a fan?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
He's associated director and choreographer Michael Jackson. This is It Tour,
one of the most brilliantly Captain.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
MoMA's I ever saw in my life.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
If you haven't seen that, please take time to watch
that movie or documentary, whatever you want to call it,
is brilliant and serve as associate producer for Michael Jackson's
This is a documentary which grows two hundred and sixty
one million in global revenue. He's here today to talk
about his journey, his life and every people he's basically impacted.
(01:30):
Please welcome to the Money Making Conversation Masterclass. Travis Payne.
How you doing, Travis, Thank you, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I appreciate you for Sean. I appreciate you having me.
Thank you everybody listening and watching.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, you know, the movie came out. I'm pretty sure
you've been a busy man, Travis. The movie I'm talking
about is Michael, and I'm pretty sure you've been well
just put this way, man. To be associated with the
brand of the Jacksons, to be associated with the king
of pop, Michael Jackson. Let's talk about that, that role
in your life and how do you deal with it?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Okay, Well, I got my start with Janet Jackson, a
ribber nation, as you said, and right out of high school.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well, actually I went.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
To High School in Atlanta Northside School of the Arts,
and then I went to Morehouse for a short time.
I grew up in normous academy dancing It's the Only Guy,
and then I was headhunted by a gentleman who was
working with the choreographer for Janet Jackson.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
So that's kind of how I got my introduction into
that realm. But of course, like many of us, I
grew up watching the Jacksons, and you know, Prince and
Madonna and you know, during that time, they were the trifecta,
and then came Janet and Paula Abdul and so I
was able to come to Los Angeles and feel it
(02:46):
out because all my life I thought I wanted to
move to New York to dance for Alvin Eley Right
and Broadway in that whole thing, but I didn't really
really know about the West Coast. So I got the
opportunity to replace the great Anthony Thomas, who's another for
a director that I look up to, on the Rhythm
Nation eighteen fourteen world tour and did that for the
(03:08):
final I think the final two legs or the final
leg of the show. Then I was able to audition
for Michael, for remember the time where I started my
almost two decades long career with him. But it's you know,
his dream come true. I can remember as far back
as five six years old, you know, loving the Jackson's cartoon,
(03:29):
you know, the Victory Tours, the first concert I ever
went to, the first record I ever bought. And so
just to be you know, welcomed into that creative dynasty
has just been a blessing and continues to be.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
What makes Travis a good dancer because we all think
we can dance, we all.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Think we can move. He'll be in that club be
Lyn dancer.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What makes a good dancer, Travis?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I think a good dancer is just someone who's open,
you know, who's not fearful to explore, meaning to just move,
you know, and not think about it, don't be afraid
of looking silly. You know, by by repetition, you build
your technique.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
You know. I think that dance is a universal language.
I can't see. I hate humble people. I hate humble people.
That's what Travis is being humble right now. I am,
I am, but yeah, I felt.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
What I do know is that you know, if you're
if you're training to be a professional dancer. So you
need to know a little bit about a lot, right,
and you need to have tough skin, especially if you're
coming to a market like Los Angeles or Network. But
as far as the as far as dance in general,
I think you know, it is saved. It is saved
countless lives, It sells infinite amounts of products, and you know,
(04:40):
remains one of the only what I call languages that
you don't have to, you know, be in any particular
place to understand.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You know, it unites us. I really do.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And you said you were recruited. When that person recruited you,
I had arder recruited you. What did he see in you, Travis?
That he went, it's a little bit different than what
I'm seeing in somebody else, male or.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Fem of course.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Well, that gentleman was Frank Gatson Junior. And I was
dancing at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. I don't know
if you remember Rich's Fashionada we would do.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So I was with my company, Gary Harrison Contemporary Dance Company,
and we were doing a show at the Fox. When
we finished the show, the young man said, do you
want to in fact talking about this?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
This is that show. Wow, So it's a youngster.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Yeah, and that's and that's Gary Harrison, who's my dance father.
So we were backstage in that moment. Maybe Frank even
took that picture. But the gentleman said, had you ever
moved considered moving to la And I said, no, I'm
going to New York because I want to. You know,
I've been accepted to Alvin Aley for the summer. And said, well,
you really should consider it. And so, you know, over
(05:52):
a year or so went by, and you know, all
I knew about La is that's where Michael Jackson lived,
That's where the Encino Home was, That's where Jan and
the brothers lived. And I had Uncle Claude who was
out here and in Costa Mesa, and so I took
a visit and I fell in love with the city,
and I fell in love with the with the energy
(06:14):
here and the opportunity that was possible here during that time,
you know, because I left Atlanta pre La.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Face, pre Tyler Perry.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
You know, we weren't a huge, you know, mecca of
entertainment yet so getting out here and being able to
do that was just a blessing. And so I think
Frank I think Lavelle Smith Junior too, you know, the
two of them were really instrumental in getting me started
and welcoming me into the fold and sort of showing
me how this city works. And not long after that
(06:44):
I would start with Janet. Why did you handle rejection, Travis?
I think I was so fortunate because I was so
young and kind of naive and didn't really put much
energy into it as far as as far as feeling rejected.
(07:05):
I knew that I was going to sometimes three or
four auditions a day. I knew early on that there
would be a lot of no's before you get to
the yes, right, you know, I was that was shared
with me. So I think that I came into this game,
you know, a little naive, not knowing what I didn't know,
and then I was able to have thick skin. I
think from my training and upbringing in Atlanta with Gary,
(07:27):
you know, because he treated us like young adults. We
were in part of a touring production called the Tour
Show that was really really popular in North Side School
of the Arts. So we had been traveling the world
throughout high school. So I had seen and been in
different professional environments, and so I just tell any young performer.
Thick skin, you know, put on your thick skin. Do
not leave home without it, you know, because from the
(07:49):
time you leave your home, anything could happen. You could
meet Quincy Jones, you could bump into a Kanye, you
could you know, be sitting at dinner with Missy or
at lunch with Pharrell, And you know, you want to
be in a place where you can approach, you know,
where you can try to have a conversation, where you
can ultimately try to, you know, collaborate with those other artists,
(08:14):
because I find that a lot of people here in
LA are trying to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yes, they just don't have opportunities. Yes, you see.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So I think with preparedness and being ready and meeting opportunity,
you know, and fearlessness, you know, you can you can
have a pretty good time out here and make a
pretty good career for yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Tell the audience a moment with Janet and then a
moment with Michael Jackson.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You went to yourself. Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
My first show with Janet was a while because everything
happened so quickly in the transition between Anthony Thomas and
myself that I didn't even meet her until after the
show Okay, and that was in Japan and Tokyo Dome
called the Big Egg, and that was a while for
me because that was my first time on a major
concert stage with one of my heroes. And to be
(09:05):
able to share the stage with her during that time,
you know, because Rhythm Nation was at its height, and
you know, being a fan of the work, you know,
to get that opportunity was just incredible. And then I
think similarly, you know, performing on stage with Michael where
we where we did get to sing as well, was
(09:27):
so electrifying and it was like we were superheroes. And
you know, but one one show in particular with Michael
that you know, was a while because there was so
many whiles with both of them over the years, including
screen where I got to co choreograph both of them
for the screen short film. But one of the one
(09:48):
of the standout moments for me with Michael was performing
for a sold out crowd in Israel and we there
was so much, so much, so many in attendance that
we were in a field, not even in an arena
or stadium, we were literally in a field. The stage
(10:09):
was built in the middle of a field and it
was overlooking the ocean was behind us, where the sea
was behind us, and there was a sea of people
in front of us. And you know, the same people
that are having conflict now and have for years were
(10:29):
in the same audience, arm in arm, singing.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
We are the world or heal the world.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And so that kind of power, you know, not many
people have to bring enemies into the same space and
for a couple of hours get them to put down
their differences and just be people. You know, Janet and
Michael have been undoubtedly very very central to my career
(10:59):
and the foundation in which I've been able to build
a successful career, you know. But getting to work with
you know, young artists like an Elie Chappa recently it's great.
I've been directing music videos for and with him and
and his fiance Erica Raven. They you know, young, they're
both twenty three, you know. But then being able to
(11:20):
work like with greats like Donna Ross and Smokey Robinson
and Stevie Wonder and you know TLC and Usher and
you know Beyonce, Lady Gaga, you know in Vogue, who
was very very central. You know a lot of these
are two of these are for in Vogue, and just
being able to work at this level for so long.
(11:42):
It's a blessing. I think I'm entering thirty five years
in La.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I know it's tough, brother, La, thirty five. I was
that from fifteen. I know. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, So it's it's no easy feet, you know. And
again it's it's been a lot of trial and error.
It's been a lot of blood, sweat and tears. It's
been a lot of no's, you know, and navigating that
landscape and making it, making it work despite no matter
what is going on, and pressure, you know, and so
(12:15):
you know, it's it's, it's it continues to be a
daily challenge to balance everything.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Please don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
We'll be right back with more money Making Conversations Masterclass.
No need for you to do me a favor right
now to follow our subscribe to Money Making Conversation. It's
free and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify,
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me that favor, follow or subscribe money Making Conversations. Welcome
(12:48):
back to Money Making Conversations master Class, hosted by me
Rashaan McDonald. Money Making Conversations master Class continues online at
Moneymaking Conversations dot com and follow money Making Conversations master
Class on Facebook, x and Instagram. Let's talk about Let's
talk about you, my friend, you know, a director, choreographer,
(13:09):
because sometimes we look at these jobs which we don't
understand them, then we can't understand the difficult nature of them. Right,
you're bringing brought in to create. Talk about the process
of being a creator, being a director, and being a
person who have to challenge people physically to do a
(13:31):
task that initially only you can see.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, I do like to say that what I do
you know as a creative, as a director, a producer, choreographer,
you know, is yes, it's physical, of course, but it's
also emotional and spiritual, just because you know, you have
to motivate, you have to encourage, you have to you know,
make your clients feel safe, you know, and certainly make
(13:58):
them the best versions of themselves for whatever the project is.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And to that point, every project is very different, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Some require months and months and months of preparation and
some are show up on the day and go for it,
you know, So it really really varies. So my process
is definitely getting involved with understanding what the goals are,
you know, certainly, if it's a if it's something that
has to do with commerce, you know, and it's generating
(14:27):
any sort of profit, you have to understand what those
goals are first. So a lot of times I would
I kind of try to back into what's best so
I understand where we're going and where we are and
just try to meet right so that all of the
boxes can be checked so that the client is happy,
the ad in marketing agency is happy, the the you know,
(14:51):
the the viewership or the buyer, you know, gets what
the message is. Whether it's a music video to promote
a song, or whether it's a concert to promote an album,
or a commercial to sell a product. You know, one
of the things that I did.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
A few years ago was I did the very first
ever Gap Khakis campaign, which for for that company in
that year, they sold a billion dollars worth of khaki pants,
right because of that series of commercials and I did
the first one, and so you know, that further helped
(15:32):
me understand, you know that that entertainment, dance and music
specifically are huge, huge.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Generate huge profits.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And really moved the needle when we're talking about the
bottom line for any company. So you have to understand
that from that perspective too, because now as I've had,
as I have grown in my career, my interest is
not just what's on stage in the creative right, the
business of entertainment is.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Really what drives a lot of my process. Now, let's
keep that on.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Has to make sense. Otherwise it's a hobby. You know,
it's not generating a profit.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
So let's keep that own business there, Travis, Because you know,
Michael Jackson was just a black kid out of Gary, Indiana.
He changed the economics of entertainment. I like to believe
he did. He did, still does talk to us about that. Yeah,
Michael Jackson, his movie I believe is probably close to
a billion dollars globally. The movie we're talking about, Michael
(16:35):
h and drafted, which I'm so happy was directed by
a black man.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Okay, work with a handful of times as well. So
I got to see them on set and at the
premiere here in LA and you know, yes, I'm very
very happy about that. But Michael, as far as the
business acumen, perfect case study and how to navigate this
this this entertainment landscape, you know, almost too smart for
(17:04):
his own good and so I think that because if
you look at things like Thriller, which was his biggest
arguably his biggest album, and still you know, Reign Supreme
is the top selling album in the world. Historically, his
business for that didn't completely benefit him. You know, there
(17:29):
were some collaborators that he worked with, mister Jones and Temperton,
you know, who benefited from that relationship and collaboration just
as much as he did.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
But in later years he.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Would realize that, you know, there are other aspects of
the creative process that matter just as much as the
creative because they are the business. So that's the music publishing,
that's the sound rights, that's the writing credits, that's all
of those things, and then years two acquire publishing of
(18:04):
other artists and be able to monetize that, you know,
so that with the Beatles, I think that not only
the Beatles, but there was Elvis, there's you know, you
know a lot of people don't know that, you know,
Lady Gaga, her publishing was on Michael It's on the
A TV.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And many you know, artists.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And in later years when you know, he was you know,
had issues rather than getting you know, angry or resentful.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
He just purchased that artist publishing. What does music do
do for you? Travis Payne, Well, music is has been
a central ingredient to my life's work.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
It has always been there as a comfort, It's been
there as an educator, it's been there as inspiration. But
but music, I can't I can't imagine the world, my
world without music, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Even though we see a tremendous amount of success in
the movie Michael right, there were some people went, is
it people? Does Michael still resonate? Not everybody's saying Michael resonates.
Why does Michael Jackson still resonate? I understand my age, okay,
but he's resonating with the young people. Why it's a
(19:24):
big question, Travis, can you.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I know, I know why.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think it's because what Michael created over his decades
long career, especially as a soloist, was so innovative and groundbreaking.
Not only the what you hear, but what you saw,
the style, the fashion, the films, the the sort of vibe.
(19:53):
All of it was so branded. Right before everybody was
walking around talking about my brand, he was doing that.
He was doing signature things like his Fedora people around
the world know who Michael Jackson is, even if they
can't understand English, they know those two words Michael Jackson.
(20:14):
And I think that the combination of Michael's determination to
always do something innovative that breaks the mold and pushes
the envelope, that means that the work itself, and he
would say, is this going to be cool in ten years?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Is this going to be cool in fifty years? You know?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
And that was kind of a litmus test about some
of the decision making we'd have. You know, he didn't
want to do something that had been done before. He
didn't care if it was you know, if someone had
done it in a great way, he wouldn't he wouldn't
respond to it. It was like he wanted to always
create his own specific lane. And I think that that
(20:53):
is why a lot of fans and even new fans,
and even Michael Jackson has fans that haven't been born
yet will connect to the imagery and the music and
his messaging.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
You know, when I think about your life, you know,
I don't want to just talk about Janet Jackson the
Nation tour, but the documentary that you was fortunate to
wake up this is it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I watched it. It was like.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A documentary about like you said, detail, because he was
detailed or he was there at the practice. It was
like watching. He knew who was dancing with him, he
knew why they were dancing with him with him. Talk
about your participation in that project and what was your
biggest takeaway from that project.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Well, I was in Las Vegas with Kenny Ortega, who's
a dear friend and collaborator and mentor of mine over
the years, and we were at the wind Hotel opening
the Encore. We were doing the opening weekend for the Encore,
which involved a creative event with all of the Winds
guests and everything and opening the hotel, and so Kenny's
(22:03):
phone wrung, his eyes got big, he said Michael. I
was like okay to him, and then that's how we
learned about Michael's desire to go back out and his
reasonings for doing it, which I just mentioned, and so
long story short, we wound up in a meeting once
we got back to La he kept saying, this is it,
(22:25):
this is it a million times. It's time. We got
to tell the world what's going on. We got to
caution them, we got to ring the alarm. We have
to do all these things, and so Kenny's like, well,
why don't you just call the show this is it?
You said it one hundred thousand times that then we'll
just say this is it. And so that's how we started,
and you know, the what was interesting was that this
(22:46):
was going to revolutionize the way artists toured and that
we would do residencies in different countries. You know, conventional
tours would leap frog and do maybe a few days
at a time. We were going to live in London
for you know, nine months and then moved to the
next place and lived there while the shows happened. And
so to be included as a director for this is
(23:09):
it was obviously a huge, huge blessing for me. Having
started as a dancer for Michael and then choreographer and
ultimately directing and then and then producing the documentary. That
was just a wonderful career trajectory, you know, much of
which Michael was directly involved with. You know, he told
(23:33):
me when it was time to choreograph, he told me
when it was hard for me to direct, when he
thought I was ready, and then of course we were
tasked with producing the documentary after his passing but the
experience itself was great until it wasn't. And you know,
we know how the story you know went, you know,
(23:56):
on June twenty fifth, as we approached that date as well,
it was and it still remains a bittersweet. It does
not get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I miss him more and more day, and especially with
his biopic now out. I'm so proud that the fans
will get some more Michael, and the new fans will
get to get introduced to Michael, and that you know,
that that his music sees and sees the next generation
(24:26):
and that people can really sort of get into his
ideas and what he was really about and what his
purpose on what he felt his purpose was here on
this planet. But but for me, as a young guy
from Atlanta, Georgia, you know, to get all the way
to that place was really dream come true. It's surreal,
(24:49):
but it was exactly what I wanted to do and
I knew I would do from an early age, you know.
So you know that I think is important to know too.
You have to have the nerve to think that you
can have to you know a lot of people say,
well your delusional, Well no, I am committed.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
There you go myself. There you go, and I'm prepared right.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
So you know, if you stay ready, you don't have
to get ready, as my parents would say, or you know,
we have to work much harder than others when we
get into the rooms. That was always a part of
my fabric and remains to this day, like.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I always help you top of myself. If you have
a gift, leave with your gift.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Don't let your friends, family or co worker stop you
from planning or living your dream. My guess Travis Paine
has lived and is living his dream. My brother, This
is a good interview for me. Man, I'm smiling. Got
to talk to somebody who touched genius. Dance with genius,
h gout with geniuses, My boy boy.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I'm going to be back planning a lot of that,
a lot more experiences with not only Michael and Janet,
but all of the artists I've worked with at these
forty years. In my documentary The Movie Maker, which I'm
in production for now, I've just shown a teaser of
it in the Yokhama International Film Festival earlier this month.
And so yeah, so I've got I've got my own,
(26:09):
you know, my own story coming to audiences very very soon.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You're doing right. Okay, you lived that same timeline.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
When you're talking about strategy and you're talking about art
and commerce, you have to look at opportunities to write.
So for me, this is a huge moment for Michael
and his brand, and because of my association, you know,
to me, it makes sense to not not ignore the
(26:37):
fact that this is a huge Michael moment, a huge
Michael look. So from the premiere earlier this month in
LA to the premiere next week in Japan in Tokyo,
and then through June and October, it's all Michael season
to me, you see. So I am just grateful to
(27:00):
be able to you know, spend some time with you
today talk about the great Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Okay, hey, Travis, now you know we've been talking. Now
I got to let people know how to reach out
to you, because you know, I got the contact, but
let everybody else know how they can reach out, you know, website,
social those handles.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Of course, my social media is Travis payin one t
R A v I, S P A y n E
one that's on Instagram, on x and TikTok it's Travis Pain.
And then website is Travispain dot com, t R A
v I, s P A y n E dot com
and uh yeah, and the move Maker is coming to
(27:36):
you very very soon. I'm working on it very hard
and I'm excited about where it's going. And a lot
of other a lot of other things that have a
group Travis Japan who are on their third album. We're
finishing a show, Herosawa's debut EP, both Japanese artists. I
do a lot of work there and especially love Asia
(27:58):
and so from me, Atlanta, Los Angeles and Tokyo are
really my hubs right and and so hopefully I can
I can meet you one day in person with there you.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Will, you will, There's no doubt.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
There's no doubt. Travis, come on now, thank you doing
on the show. Brother, appreciate you man, thank you, sir.
I appreciate you cool. Thank you for listening to this episode.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Now, I need for you to do me a favor
right now to follow or subscribe to Money Making Conversations.
It's free and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify,
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winning
Welcome to my show. I'm Rashon McDonald, a host of
Money Making Conversations Masterclass, where we encourage people to stop
reading other people's success stories and start planning your own. Now,
you don't want to miss an episode, so please take
a moment right now to follow or subscribe to Money
Making Conversations Masterclass.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's free.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You can follow me on iHeartRadio, app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your podcast. New Money Making
Conversations Masterclass episodes drop daily. I want to keep you
on alert because my guests provide tips on how you
can uplift your community, improve your financial planning, motivation, or
advice on how to be a successful entrepreneur. Now, let's
(00:38):
get this podcast started. My guess has established himself as
a brand, a world renowned brand, choreographer, director and producer.
In fact, as a dancer. He joined Jan and Jackson's
Rhythm Nation eighteen fourteen world tour in nineteen ninety'all remember
that was she had a little black suit.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Don't you know? A fan? Still a fan?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
He's associated director and choreographer Michael Jackson. This is It Tour,
one of the most brilliantly Captain.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
MoMA's I ever saw in my life.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
If you haven't seen that, please take time to watch
that movie or documentary, whatever you want to call it,
is brilliant and serve as associate producer for Michael Jackson's
This is a documentary which grows two hundred and sixty
one million in global revenue. He's here today to talk
about his journey, his life and every people he's basically impacted.
(01:30):
Please welcome to the Money Making Conversation Masterclass. Travis Payne.
How you doing, Travis, Thank you, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I appreciate you for Sean. I appreciate you having me.
Thank you everybody listening and watching.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, you know, the movie came out. I'm pretty sure
you've been a busy man, Travis. The movie I'm talking
about is Michael, and I'm pretty sure you've been well
just put this way, man. To be associated with the
brand of the Jacksons, to be associated with the king
of pop, Michael Jackson. Let's talk about that, that role
in your life and how do you deal with it?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Okay, Well, I got my start with Janet Jackson, a
ribber nation, as you said, and right out of high school.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Well, actually I went.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
To High School in Atlanta Northside School of the Arts,
and then I went to Morehouse for a short time.
I grew up in normous academy dancing It's the Only Guy,
and then I was headhunted by a gentleman who was
working with the choreographer for Janet Jackson.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
So that's kind of how I got my introduction into
that realm. But of course, like many of us, I
grew up watching the Jacksons, and you know, Prince and
Madonna and you know, during that time, they were the trifecta,
and then came Janet and Paula Abdul and so I
was able to come to Los Angeles and feel it
(02:46):
out because all my life I thought I wanted to
move to New York to dance for Alvin Eley Right
and Broadway in that whole thing, but I didn't really
really know about the West Coast. So I got the
opportunity to replace the great Anthony Thomas, who's another for
a director that I look up to, on the Rhythm
Nation eighteen fourteen world tour and did that for the
(03:08):
final I think the final two legs or the final
leg of the show. Then I was able to audition
for Michael, for remember the time where I started my
almost two decades long career with him. But it's you know,
his dream come true. I can remember as far back
as five six years old, you know, loving the Jackson's cartoon,
(03:29):
you know, the Victory Tours, the first concert I ever
went to, the first record I ever bought. And so
just to be you know, welcomed into that creative dynasty
has just been a blessing and continues to be.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
What makes Travis a good dancer because we all think
we can dance, we all.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Think we can move. He'll be in that club be
Lyn dancer.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What makes a good dancer, Travis?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I think a good dancer is just someone who's open,
you know, who's not fearful to explore, meaning to just move,
you know, and not think about it, don't be afraid
of looking silly. You know, by by repetition, you build
your technique.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
You know. I think that dance is a universal language.
I can't see. I hate humble people. I hate humble people.
That's what Travis is being humble right now. I am,
I am, but yeah, I felt.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
What I do know is that you know, if you're
if you're training to be a professional dancer. So you
need to know a little bit about a lot, right,
and you need to have tough skin, especially if you're
coming to a market like Los Angeles or Network. But
as far as the as far as dance in general,
I think you know, it is saved. It is saved
countless lives, It sells infinite amounts of products, and you know,
(04:40):
remains one of the only what I call languages that
you don't have to, you know, be in any particular
place to understand.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You know, it unites us. I really do.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And you said you were recruited. When that person recruited you,
I had arder recruited you. What did he see in you, Travis?
That he went, it's a little bit different than what
I'm seeing in somebody else, male or.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Fem of course.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Well, that gentleman was Frank Gatson Junior. And I was
dancing at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. I don't know
if you remember Rich's Fashionada we would do.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So I was with my company, Gary Harrison Contemporary Dance Company,
and we were doing a show at the Fox. When
we finished the show, the young man said, do you
want to in fact talking about this?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
This is that show. Wow, So it's a youngster.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Yeah, and that's and that's Gary Harrison, who's my dance father.
So we were backstage in that moment. Maybe Frank even
took that picture. But the gentleman said, had you ever
moved considered moving to la And I said, no, I'm
going to New York because I want to. You know,
I've been accepted to Alvin Aley for the summer. And said, well,
you really should consider it. And so, you know, over
(05:52):
a year or so went by, and you know, all
I knew about La is that's where Michael Jackson lived,
That's where the Encino Home was, That's where Jan and
the brothers lived. And I had Uncle Claude who was
out here and in Costa Mesa, and so I took
a visit and I fell in love with the city,
and I fell in love with the with the energy
(06:14):
here and the opportunity that was possible here during that time,
you know, because I left Atlanta pre La.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Face, pre Tyler Perry.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
You know, we weren't a huge, you know, mecca of
entertainment yet so getting out here and being able to
do that was just a blessing. And so I think
Frank I think Lavelle Smith Junior too, you know, the
two of them were really instrumental in getting me started
and welcoming me into the fold and sort of showing
me how this city works. And not long after that
(06:44):
I would start with Janet. Why did you handle rejection, Travis?
I think I was so fortunate because I was so
young and kind of naive and didn't really put much
energy into it as far as as far as feeling rejected.
(07:05):
I knew that I was going to sometimes three or
four auditions a day. I knew early on that there
would be a lot of no's before you get to
the yes, right, you know, I was that was shared
with me. So I think that I came into this game,
you know, a little naive, not knowing what I didn't know,
and then I was able to have thick skin. I
think from my training and upbringing in Atlanta with Gary,
(07:27):
you know, because he treated us like young adults. We
were in part of a touring production called the Tour
Show that was really really popular in North Side School
of the Arts. So we had been traveling the world
throughout high school. So I had seen and been in
different professional environments, and so I just tell any young performer.
Thick skin, you know, put on your thick skin. Do
not leave home without it, you know, because from the
(07:49):
time you leave your home, anything could happen. You could
meet Quincy Jones, you could bump into a Kanye, you
could you know, be sitting at dinner with Missy or
at lunch with Pharrell, And you know, you want to
be in a place where you can approach, you know,
where you can try to have a conversation, where you
can ultimately try to, you know, collaborate with those other artists,
(08:14):
because I find that a lot of people here in
LA are trying to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yes, they just don't have opportunities. Yes, you see.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So I think with preparedness and being ready and meeting opportunity,
you know, and fearlessness, you know, you can you can
have a pretty good time out here and make a
pretty good career for yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Tell the audience a moment with Janet and then a
moment with Michael Jackson.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You went to yourself. Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
My first show with Janet was a while because everything
happened so quickly in the transition between Anthony Thomas and
myself that I didn't even meet her until after the
show Okay, and that was in Japan and Tokyo Dome
called the Big Egg, and that was a while for
me because that was my first time on a major
concert stage with one of my heroes. And to be
(09:05):
able to share the stage with her during that time,
you know, because Rhythm Nation was at its height, and
you know, being a fan of the work, you know,
to get that opportunity was just incredible. And then I
think similarly, you know, performing on stage with Michael where
we where we did get to sing as well, was
(09:27):
so electrifying and it was like we were superheroes. And
you know, but one one show in particular with Michael
that you know, was a while because there was so
many whiles with both of them over the years, including
screen where I got to co choreograph both of them
for the screen short film. But one of the one
(09:48):
of the standout moments for me with Michael was performing
for a sold out crowd in Israel and we there
was so much, so much, so many in attendance that
we were in a field, not even in an arena
or stadium, we were literally in a field. The stage
(10:09):
was built in the middle of a field and it
was overlooking the ocean was behind us, where the sea
was behind us, and there was a sea of people
in front of us. And you know, the same people
that are having conflict now and have for years were
(10:29):
in the same audience, arm in arm, singing.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
We are the world or heal the world.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
And so that kind of power, you know, not many
people have to bring enemies into the same space and
for a couple of hours get them to put down
their differences and just be people. You know, Janet and
Michael have been undoubtedly very very central to my career
(10:59):
and the foundation in which I've been able to build
a successful career, you know. But getting to work with
you know, young artists like an Elie Chappa recently it's great.
I've been directing music videos for and with him and
and his fiance Erica Raven. They you know, young, they're
both twenty three, you know. But then being able to
(11:20):
work like with greats like Donna Ross and Smokey Robinson
and Stevie Wonder and you know TLC and Usher and
you know Beyonce, Lady Gaga, you know in Vogue, who
was very very central. You know a lot of these
are two of these are for in Vogue, and just
being able to work at this level for so long.
(11:42):
It's a blessing. I think I'm entering thirty five years
in La.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I know it's tough, brother, La, thirty five. I was
that from fifteen. I know. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, So it's it's no easy feet, you know. And
again it's it's been a lot of trial and error.
It's been a lot of blood, sweat and tears. It's
been a lot of no's, you know, and navigating that
landscape and making it, making it work despite no matter
what is going on, and pressure, you know, and so
(12:15):
you know, it's it's, it's it continues to be a
daily challenge to balance everything.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Please don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
We'll be right back with more money Making Conversations Masterclass.
No need for you to do me a favor right
now to follow our subscribe to Money Making Conversation. It's
free and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please do
me that favor, follow or subscribe money Making Conversations. Welcome
(12:48):
back to Money Making Conversations master Class, hosted by me
Rashaan McDonald. Money Making Conversations master Class continues online at
Moneymaking Conversations dot com and follow money Making Conversations master
Class on Facebook, x and Instagram. Let's talk about Let's
talk about you, my friend, you know, a director, choreographer,
(13:09):
because sometimes we look at these jobs which we don't
understand them, then we can't understand the difficult nature of them. Right,
you're bringing brought in to create. Talk about the process
of being a creator, being a director, and being a
person who have to challenge people physically to do a
(13:31):
task that initially only you can see.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, I do like to say that what I do
you know as a creative, as a director, a producer, choreographer,
you know, is yes, it's physical, of course, but it's
also emotional and spiritual, just because you know, you have
to motivate, you have to encourage, you have to you know,
make your clients feel safe, you know, and certainly make
(13:58):
them the best versions of themselves for whatever the project is.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
And to that point, every project is very different, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Some require months and months and months of preparation and
some are show up on the day and go for it,
you know, So it really really varies. So my process
is definitely getting involved with understanding what the goals are,
you know, certainly, if it's a if it's something that
has to do with commerce, you know, and it's generating
(14:27):
any sort of profit, you have to understand what those
goals are first. So a lot of times I would
I kind of try to back into what's best so
I understand where we're going and where we are and
just try to meet right so that all of the
boxes can be checked so that the client is happy,
the ad in marketing agency is happy, the the you know,
(14:51):
the the viewership or the buyer, you know, gets what
the message is. Whether it's a music video to promote
a song, or whether it's a concert to promote an album,
or a commercial to sell a product. You know, one
of the things that I did.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
A few years ago was I did the very first
ever Gap Khakis campaign, which for for that company in
that year, they sold a billion dollars worth of khaki pants,
right because of that series of commercials and I did
the first one, and so you know, that further helped
(15:32):
me understand, you know that that entertainment, dance and music
specifically are huge, huge.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Generate huge profits.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And really moved the needle when we're talking about the
bottom line for any company. So you have to understand
that from that perspective too, because now as I've had,
as I have grown in my career, my interest is
not just what's on stage in the creative right, the
business of entertainment is.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Really what drives a lot of my process. Now, let's
keep that on.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Has to make sense. Otherwise it's a hobby. You know,
it's not generating a profit.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
So let's keep that own business there, Travis, Because you know,
Michael Jackson was just a black kid out of Gary, Indiana.
He changed the economics of entertainment. I like to believe
he did. He did, still does talk to us about that. Yeah,
Michael Jackson, his movie I believe is probably close to
a billion dollars globally. The movie we're talking about, Michael
(16:35):
h and drafted, which I'm so happy was directed by
a black man.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Okay, work with a handful of times as well. So
I got to see them on set and at the
premiere here in LA and you know, yes, I'm very
very happy about that. But Michael, as far as the
business acumen, perfect case study and how to navigate this
this this entertainment landscape, you know, almost too smart for
(17:04):
his own good and so I think that because if
you look at things like Thriller, which was his biggest
arguably his biggest album, and still you know, Reign Supreme
is the top selling album in the world. Historically, his
business for that didn't completely benefit him. You know, there
(17:29):
were some collaborators that he worked with, mister Jones and Temperton,
you know, who benefited from that relationship and collaboration just
as much as he did.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
But in later years he.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Would realize that, you know, there are other aspects of
the creative process that matter just as much as the
creative because they are the business. So that's the music publishing,
that's the sound rights, that's the writing credits, that's all
of those things, and then years two acquire publishing of
(18:04):
other artists and be able to monetize that, you know,
so that with the Beatles, I think that not only
the Beatles, but there was Elvis, there's you know, you
know a lot of people don't know that, you know,
Lady Gaga, her publishing was on Michael It's on the
A TV.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And many you know, artists.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And in later years when you know, he was you know,
had issues rather than getting you know, angry or resentful.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
He just purchased that artist publishing. What does music do
do for you? Travis Payne, Well, music is has been
a central ingredient to my life's work.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
It has always been there as a comfort, It's been
there as an educator, it's been there as inspiration. But
but music, I can't I can't imagine the world, my
world without music, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Even though we see a tremendous amount of success in
the movie Michael right, there were some people went, is
it people? Does Michael still resonate? Not everybody's saying Michael resonates.
Why does Michael Jackson still resonate? I understand my age, okay,
but he's resonating with the young people. Why it's a
(19:24):
big question, Travis, can you.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I know, I know why.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think it's because what Michael created over his decades
long career, especially as a soloist, was so innovative and groundbreaking.
Not only the what you hear, but what you saw,
the style, the fashion, the films, the the sort of vibe.
(19:53):
All of it was so branded. Right before everybody was
walking around talking about my brand, he was doing that.
He was doing signature things like his Fedora people around
the world know who Michael Jackson is, even if they
can't understand English, they know those two words Michael Jackson.
(20:14):
And I think that the combination of Michael's determination to
always do something innovative that breaks the mold and pushes
the envelope, that means that the work itself, and he
would say, is this going to be cool in ten years?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Is this going to be cool in fifty years? You know?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
And that was kind of a litmus test about some
of the decision making we'd have. You know, he didn't
want to do something that had been done before. He
didn't care if it was you know, if someone had
done it in a great way, he wouldn't he wouldn't
respond to it. It was like he wanted to always
create his own specific lane. And I think that that
(20:53):
is why a lot of fans and even new fans,
and even Michael Jackson has fans that haven't been born
yet will connect to the imagery and the music and
his messaging.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
You know, when I think about your life, you know,
I don't want to just talk about Janet Jackson the
Nation tour, but the documentary that you was fortunate to
wake up this is it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I watched it. It was like.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A documentary about like you said, detail, because he was
detailed or he was there at the practice. It was
like watching. He knew who was dancing with him, he
knew why they were dancing with him with him. Talk
about your participation in that project and what was your
biggest takeaway from that project.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Well, I was in Las Vegas with Kenny Ortega, who's
a dear friend and collaborator and mentor of mine over
the years, and we were at the wind Hotel opening
the Encore. We were doing the opening weekend for the Encore,
which involved a creative event with all of the Winds
guests and everything and opening the hotel, and so Kenny's
(22:03):
phone wrung, his eyes got big, he said Michael. I
was like okay to him, and then that's how we
learned about Michael's desire to go back out and his
reasonings for doing it, which I just mentioned, and so
long story short, we wound up in a meeting once
we got back to La he kept saying, this is it,
(22:25):
this is it a million times. It's time. We got
to tell the world what's going on. We got to
caution them, we got to ring the alarm. We have
to do all these things, and so Kenny's like, well,
why don't you just call the show this is it?
You said it one hundred thousand times that then we'll
just say this is it. And so that's how we started,
and you know, the what was interesting was that this
(22:46):
was going to revolutionize the way artists toured and that
we would do residencies in different countries. You know, conventional
tours would leap frog and do maybe a few days
at a time. We were going to live in London
for you know, nine months and then moved to the
next place and lived there while the shows happened. And
so to be included as a director for this is
(23:09):
it was obviously a huge, huge blessing for me. Having
started as a dancer for Michael and then choreographer and
ultimately directing and then and then producing the documentary. That
was just a wonderful career trajectory, you know, much of
which Michael was directly involved with. You know, he told
(23:33):
me when it was time to choreograph, he told me
when it was hard for me to direct, when he
thought I was ready, and then of course we were
tasked with producing the documentary after his passing but the
experience itself was great until it wasn't. And you know,
we know how the story you know went, you know,
(23:56):
on June twenty fifth, as we approached that date as well,
it was and it still remains a bittersweet. It does
not get easier.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I miss him more and more day, and especially with
his biopic now out. I'm so proud that the fans
will get some more Michael, and the new fans will
get to get introduced to Michael, and that you know,
that that his music sees and sees the next generation
(24:26):
and that people can really sort of get into his
ideas and what he was really about and what his
purpose on what he felt his purpose was here on
this planet. But but for me, as a young guy
from Atlanta, Georgia, you know, to get all the way
to that place was really dream come true. It's surreal,
(24:49):
but it was exactly what I wanted to do and
I knew I would do from an early age, you know.
So you know that I think is important to know too.
You have to have the nerve to think that you
can have to you know a lot of people say,
well your delusional, Well no, I am committed.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
There you go myself. There you go, and I'm prepared right.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
So you know, if you stay ready, you don't have
to get ready, as my parents would say, or you know,
we have to work much harder than others when we
get into the rooms. That was always a part of
my fabric and remains to this day, like.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
I always help you top of myself. If you have
a gift, leave with your gift.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Don't let your friends, family or co worker stop you
from planning or living your dream. My guess Travis Paine
has lived and is living his dream. My brother, This
is a good interview for me. Man, I'm smiling. Got
to talk to somebody who touched genius. Dance with genius,
h gout with geniuses, My boy boy.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I'm going to be back planning a lot of that,
a lot more experiences with not only Michael and Janet,
but all of the artists I've worked with at these
forty years. In my documentary The Movie Maker, which I'm
in production for now, I've just shown a teaser of
it in the Yokhama International Film Festival earlier this month.
And so yeah, so I've got I've got my own,
(26:09):
you know, my own story coming to audiences very very soon.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You're doing right. Okay, you lived that same timeline.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
When you're talking about strategy and you're talking about art
and commerce, you have to look at opportunities to write.
So for me, this is a huge moment for Michael
and his brand, and because of my association, you know,
to me, it makes sense to not not ignore the
(26:37):
fact that this is a huge Michael moment, a huge
Michael look. So from the premiere earlier this month in
LA to the premiere next week in Japan in Tokyo,
and then through June and October, it's all Michael season
to me, you see. So I am just grateful to
(27:00):
be able to you know, spend some time with you
today talk about the great Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Okay, hey, Travis, now you know we've been talking. Now
I got to let people know how to reach out
to you, because you know, I got the contact, but
let everybody else know how they can reach out, you know, website,
social those handles.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Of course, my social media is Travis payin one t
R A v I, S P A y n E
one that's on Instagram, on x and TikTok it's Travis Pain.
And then website is Travispain dot com, t R A
v I, s P A y n E dot com
and uh yeah, and the move Maker is coming to
(27:36):
you very very soon. I'm working on it very hard
and I'm excited about where it's going. And a lot
of other a lot of other things that have a
group Travis Japan who are on their third album. We're
finishing a show, Herosawa's debut EP, both Japanese artists. I
do a lot of work there and especially love Asia
(27:58):
and so from me, Atlanta, Los Angeles and Tokyo are
really my hubs right and and so hopefully I can
I can meet you one day in person with there you.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Will, you will, There's no doubt.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
There's no doubt. Travis, come on now, thank you doing
on the show. Brother, appreciate you man, thank you, sir.
I appreciate you cool. Thank you for listening to this episode.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Now, I need for you to do me a favor
right now to follow or subscribe to Money Making Conversations.
It's free and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please do
me that favor, follow or subscribe money Making conversations keep
winning
Hosts And Creators
Steve Harvey
Shirley Strawberry
Thomas "Nephew Tommy" Miles
Carla Ferrell
Kier "Junior" Spates
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