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January 30, 2025 80 mins

On today’s episode, Karen covers The Burning Bed murder and Georgia tells the story of Locusta, Poisoner of Rome.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar,
that's Karen Kilgarriff.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
And this is my favorite murder. Did we say that
part of any.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
I think that's part of it. But it's always good
to remind people.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
I heard double introing your podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Shoots you up to the top. That's the new Like
what all the you know influencers are doing.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Uh huh, it's just like double cleansing with Korean skincare.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Can I start with a really embarrassing corrections corner that
I've been now waiting two weeks.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, please correct. That's like so embarrassing, sounds on point.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Remember when I covered the British murder a couple weeks
back and I was like, this lieutenant's first name is up?
What a cool name? It was? Super intendent?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Damn it.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
I mean it's so obvious.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
It's And also I remember you making that point and
I wanted to like agree with you, but I kind
of couldn't understand what you were saying.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I was like, does it.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I just don't understand what she's saying and I don't
want to get her clarify. It sounds like maybe it's
a serbian name or something like it.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Was like a British thing, you know, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Like did you get inundated with the British Yes, listeners
being like yeah, very kindly, appreciate it, very much, need
to know, but not harshly.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
What a cool name?

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Super Did you think his name was spelled as as.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
How was the CPT? But there was no shouldn't there
be a period? Just didn't get it, just went right
over that head of mind.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
That is a tough one. We have a lot of
problems with the British law system. We always have, we have,
and it makes sense to us.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
I don't think that's like on me and I didn't
you know a fact check or anything.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
We should start calling all police officers from England.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Mom just yes, they do.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yes, just for our own clarity.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Superintendent Mom. Well, I wanted to get that out of
the way. Now that we're back from a.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Little break, I'd like to commend you on that.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Who else does it? Like us?

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Nobody? Everybody, most of nobody, nobody, But we've been gone.
This is our first episode like officially back in the
studio with a normal episode since these fucking bananas fires
that happened in Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Luckily over this weekend it rained. Yeah, so like there
was a level of calm or at least like slight
relief that came over a lot of people who lived
in LA who were just living in that fear that
were going to kick up again, that whatever was going
to happen. It is such a bizarre, weak and so
dramatic and so horrible for so many people.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
It was really crazy to find that question. You get
asked on podcasts all the time, what would you And
I've even asked on podcasts to other people, what would
you grab it a fire?

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (03:18):
And I because we weren't in the evacuation zone, we
were like like right below it, and so and you
could smell the smoke. It was really strong. The electricity
had gone out, and I was just that's just one
of my nightmares. My whole life is like I pictured
how I would do it, especially with three cats. Yeah,
in an emergency in the dark, in the dark. Right,
And so we did it. And I mean, thankfully our

(03:41):
house it didn't it didn't never reach our house, but
the it was, you know, very close.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
So sad, it's so sad.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
And it's also there's a weird thing I'm observing in
myself and other people I talked to. Either the people
that people that didn't have to evacuate feel guilty, h
like to even like discuss it where it's like, well
it wasn't me, and then people like me who did
evacuate and feel stupid because like I just left probably

(04:11):
an hour before most of the other people in my
area did because I was because basically j Elias are
our great development coordinator at this point but also executive
assistant to many at this company, texted me and was like,
you have to get out right now.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, I don't feel embarrassed at all. It's like I
kind of actually am like proud that I handled myself
in a really you know, my yelled events a little
bit to hurry up, but otherwise it all went well,
you know.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
And it is like really honest today, not yelled, but
you know what I mean, Well, you were freaking out.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
It was something so scary, was so scary, and yeah,
there's you know, I Altadina was such a darling town.
I know so many people there. There's someone in our
back house staying there because they lost their entire house.
So there is this like guilt. Yeah, like that for sure.
But my cousins are from Pacific Palisades and earlier that
day they were part of that crew who had to

(05:10):
leave their car behind and just run down this like
down and I was just like, I don't want to
be that. I don't want to be I don't want
to evacuate when I'm told to evacuate with everyone else.
That's one of my other worst nightmares, is like sitting
in evacuation traffic or your cousin's okay, some lost houses,
some divent. It's just so everyone knows someone who lost houses.
It's fucking but.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
That trauma that like gridlock emergency, gradelock trauma. It's I
saw that video of those cars being left in the
Pacific Palisades and that's why I well that I'm Jay
telling me, but it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm not
waiting around until everybody else is looking at each other
and getting in the car at the same time.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, I bet you have this experience too. Fucking huge
shout out to Vince's retired fire chief brother Russ. He
was so on it, texting us from Michigan with all
the insider info. It was so incredible, like you have
fire your dad was a firefighter, obviously, that was incredible.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
He literally he was telling texting me and being like, hey,
where are they right now? Like I was the one
that's taking screenshots of the watch duty at Oh, he's
sending them to him. No, I was like informing him
about what was going on, all right, Well yeah, but
I mean I'm sure in his if you were to
say anything, which I'm sure my sister said, don't say anything.
Oh yeah, if he was going to say anything, he'd
be like, take it easy, right, Yeah. Maybe why I

(06:34):
was interpreting that is like there's I'm seeing I'm hearing
a lot of other people have shame where it's like no, Kere.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Nots you, that's tied to you, and you're in your
Arama weird family.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
So good luck the way they do things. But suffice
it to say, really shocking, terrible, like natural disaster to
a degree I've never seen. And I've lived here for
twenty five yeah, over twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
In the midst of the inauguration, it just felt like
the end of the fucking world. Yeah, and it still does.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It does in many ways. Although the rain kind of
brought a little bit of a like at least a
like Okay, we're done with that. Yeah, now that's like
we're going to close this particular chapter of this particular
trauma season. So yeah, the thing we wanted to talk
to everybody about is how long before any of that started. Yeah,

(07:27):
we had a ninth anniversary for this old podcast, Old Gal.
I think it was on the thirteenth, Yeah, something like that,
something around there.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
And we were going to do a whole live stream
and we had asked you guys for the ninth anniversary gift,
which is ceramics, and a couple of you delivered. Yeah,
not many, just kidding. We got so much fucking ceramic boxes,
boxes upon boxes, photos, tags on. Some people were like,

(07:55):
I want to send it to you, but it cost
me five hundred dollars to send the like, just so
much awesome stuff.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
People were making, and people were making and shipping and
people were sharing and it was exactly what we wanted.
And then we basically it was almost kind of like
we sent everyone an invitation to the party and left
the house and turn the lights out or let's see
you later. So this today, it's just going to be
a little taste of what we wanted that to be
and it's going to be yes, because we're still going

(08:22):
to do it.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
We're just kind of recalibrating right now.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Right exactly we'll do. We'll do a live stream because
we have the capability to now here at these studios,
but also just we thought it would be a super fun,
cool new way to kind of celebrate something or like
mark an important day, like an anniversary, like you're almost
decade anniversary of a podcast, right.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
And that's important everyone, one of the most important moments
in a person's.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Life, young woman's life, Yeah for sure. That and getting
her first piece of dedicated ceramics. So without further ado,
and the reason we're telling you all this listener is
because we are now going to take a look at
some of the just some and like truly, we we're
gonna have We're gonna have a lot of these. We're
gonna be able to do this maybe as a recurring

(09:10):
segment of let's take a look at today's ceramic.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
And I can't we haven't seen a single piece. I haven't.
You might have accidentally because it's near your eye.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
I did, I did, no, no, no, I did accidentally
simply just right before we started because I yanked this
in the per fun of there's a blacks piece of
so for it, and I was like, yes, and I'll
underside and that was covered.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
So we haven't seen any of this. The incredible team
at exactly Right have been going through the boxes and
you can hear them diabolically laughing or just cracking up
every time someone. So there's one on our table right now.
It's covered up. If you want to go to YouTube
you can see it, or I'm sure we'll put it
on our socials.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
It'll be all over socials. We're gonna make this for
you listener who's just walking around the mall being like, wow,
I don't know what we're talking about, don't worry, it's okay.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
We're gonna explain it.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
We're going to give you pictures in this day and age.
Soon you'll be able to look at your podcast app
and video will be sitting there. That's right, that's the future.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
But until then, if you listen to us explain things
in detail and detail and probably get some things incorrect.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yeah, what's really important I think for everyone to know
and the video watcher will now know, is these pieces,
these ceramic pieces, these ceramic artworks, are right now sitting
on an electric Lazy Susan on our podcasting desk, so
we can make this as hgt not HGTV as shopping channel.

(10:30):
What's that one with the letters Shopping Network HSN. This
is we're going into that area pretty pretty severely.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Okay. Did you ever think that, like you would be
in a place in your life where you could just
ask for an electronic Lazy Susan and have it fucking
delivered like dream? That is like boss, bitch, It's.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
High fucking level.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Lean into the lazy Okay, Oh well, Andrew's going to
press play on the Lazy Susan to move now. This
is taking care here we go one to oh myoss. Okay,
it's a French coffee French press with two beautiful ceramic cups.
But it is not. I thought it was supposed to

(11:14):
be funny. I thought he was walking to be funny.
This is fucking gorgeous. It's gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Also, it's whatever any artist felt like giving us. So
this is Emily aka pottery Mama.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Wow, Instagram handle at pottery Underscore Mama. This is high art.
It's gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
I love these colors, it says quote this is just
a segment of the email or the letter that Pottery
and Mama sent with us. They said, please enjoy your
new ceramic French cross and mugs. I made them while
listening to MFM, plus a bit of buried Bones and
this podcast will kill you sprinkled in.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Does that disqualify not in any way? This is so beautiful.
I have been I have been wanting a French press
and then we throw it. This is gorgeous and I
love that Emily points out that they're made with food
safe clay and glazes, because that's like, you know, my
fucking thing now like all my vintage kitchen wear turns
out it's yes and I can't use any of it. Oh,

(12:08):
this is this is beautiful. Okay, let's go onto our
next piece of ceramics.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
All right, we can intro this first.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
It's from an artist named missy aka Young Yanta.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Oh Instagram handle at young Yanta.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Love it, and she says, as a ceramicist, jewess and
hot dog lover, I felt it was my duty to
fulfill your anniversary request. Oh my god, you give so
much to me and all your fans, so it's an
honor to give back ready, I'm going to do one, two, three, all.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
So it's going towards you. It's slowly. Don't push the Susan,
you'll see it. Don't push Susan. It is a gorgeous
like plate platter with a beautiful painting of a hot
dog on.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
It and it says stay in Mustard, stay sexy, and
nash on a dog.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
That's gorgeous, beautifu people people are sending us these are
like actual pieces. This is Yeah, I don't know what
the kitchen where term is, but like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
But it's like they're they're like furnishing exactly right studios
with art or like kind of got away with something
here where it's like we don't have to we don't
have to go to home Goods.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's right, we have it over for a month. God,
I really love this, beautiful missy. That's you did an
incredible job. And also just it's basically a hot dog plate.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, I was hoping that'd be hot dog art. It
is the right size for like double hot dogs. Yeah,
that's perfect.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Maybe a couple of chips on one end and the
other So it's almer listener, you're gonna love this because
this is just some simple, beautiful hot dog. Yeah, that's
just kind of like you love hot dogs, right, Yeah,
Well then take a look at.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
This plate and somehow it's flawless.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
It really is because it totally suggests you're going to
eat one or two dogs only.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
On this hot dog. It's oval Wow, beautiful. Okay, let's
do the next one. Thank you kindly, Thank you, Yan Yanta.
This next one is from artist Sam Brigel Instagram handle
at Sam Brigel. It's Brie g e L. And they
say about this, we haven't seen it yet. I refer
to the style of mug as my quilted twist mug.

(14:14):
I chose crows for Georgia and included my favorite MFM
quote on these mugs. It is made from translucent porcelain
and is meant to be used and enjoyed. Thank you
for all that you do. Love Sam. Here we go
big reveal.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Sam.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
I'm sorry, what that's fucking art? Why am I so shocked?
Because I think what I would have done is like
made a hot dog ceramic thing that you can't tell
what it was. My mind would have looked so bad.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Look at that crow that is gorgeous.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
It says, this is terrible. Keep going. It's a red,
yellow and black mug with quilted texture. It's got like
those are almost like Danish modern yes design designs. I
have never seen something so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's gorgeous and also makes me think of one of
those ones you can put it on the death board
of your car. And because it's like a really good
travel mug, wider at the base, I narrow.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
At the chet. You guys are professionals. I didn't know
it would be like right, like in awe.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I know, I'm totally in aw it's really exciting.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Guys are so talented.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
That's because, like we said a thing where it's like, hey,
do you like to make a thing in this one way?
Well will you make us some And people are like,
I make stuff in that way.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Oh my god, that's incredible. That's Sam Regal. Thank you
so much. I'm amazing job, Sam Rego. Beautiful mug I've
ever seen.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's very cool. And then this part is for if
you're if you are driving at night. Oh yeah, reflective, Okay,
one more look at that.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
It's so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Look at our look at our gift show.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Ray my god, I kind.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Of just want to do this for the rest of fun.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, here's the next one. Unveil Karen. Oh my god,
this is a precious moment. Uh what is it called? Statue? Yes,
you and I as precious moments, dolls. This is insane.

(16:11):
This is Lindsay from Lindsay Cooks. It says Lindsay's hobby
is altered Moments, which is taking old precious moments, figuring
and transforming them into fun new characters, bringing new life
and fresh perspective. Holy tails and a tiny talk behind
my back, and there are crows on the top and
we're stating next to a tree with SSDGM carved in it.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Oh, yeah, my god, this is a real Tell your
eight year old self that this is happening, because this
will blow your mind.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
And she can't believe it. Oh, here's some pictures from
the original. Oh okay, so she took them and turned
them into ak somehow. It's so this is us. Okay,
let me see the originally. Dude.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
There's that is brilliant, and then here's the bag we
hold those up.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
What that is brilliant?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
I mean because this is every precious moment picture I
mean statue in everyone's grandma's house.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
It's like a sad, beige, precious moment statue from your
grandma's house that she turned into this beautiful thing. You guys, God,
that's funny, so talented. I'm incredible impressed. I can't wait
to see the rest of them.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Now say their name again, sorry.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
It's Lindsay Cook. And we'll be posting this. This is
so freaking cool. It's so good to see all of
them now, like, this is next level. Thank you guys
so much. We'll be doing more of these. We're gonna
have a live stream like this could be its own episode.
It's so cool.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
This is legendary, so clever, this is unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Wow, yes, that's so what an array of beautiful, talented pieces.
I just I might I have blown away, Like my
face is warm.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I know, I know. It's really cool. Thank you guys
so much. Thank you saramacists, people who actually took the
time and money with some boxes out there that we're like, oh,
people had to spend a lot of money to ship
these to us. And just so you know, if you
shipped one to us, it's been sitting on a table
in very prominent display with everybody looking at it and

(18:13):
talking about it and looking at them except for me
and Georgia for like three weeks.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, but it's going to happen. This is just the
tip of the iceberg.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Because we have to always have electronic lazy seasonal.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
I mean we have, we got it. We have to
put it to use or it's a waste of money.
That's right, it's not waste exactly right funds.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
No, we can't. Yeah, so we have to use it
as much as we can this year.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Better.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Also, we should actually just display this very Uh. It
was shopped for by Brent, talked about. I watched them
talk about the two choices. Alle hundred picked one of
two of the silk reveal scarves. Oh that's the most
important part. I believe they're called schmattas by many people productions.

(18:58):
I put the small over that keep it as a surprise,
pulled a.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Schmata off right, all right, fun, Well, thank you guys
so much.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
That was increbleunbelievable.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Real quick. Before we get to the arm highlights and
our stories, we want to talk about donations.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
So one of the most amazing things, and I think
we may have talked about this a little, although I
can't remember, but it did become a national news story.
Was the way that the citizens of Los Angeles came
together to basically provide for each other in one of
the most beautiful outpourings of community and charity and just
basically like love and giving totally that most of us

(19:38):
have ever seen.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
It was definitely one of those is look for the
helpers moments, Yes, that was so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
One of them started because there was some guys who
were just like the food cart guys, and they decided
to go down to the Rose bul parking lot because
they heard that's where a lot of the firemen for
the Altadna fire were, like they were centralized there. So
they just four guys that have their own like dog
carts went down there to cook for the firemen, and

(20:03):
then they put it on TikTok of like, oh, if
you have donations to help us feed these firemen, you know,
we'd love to get them. You know, anything you want
to do, come down here, which then turned into the
Rose Bowl parking lot like basically center where anyone could
go to pick up clothes, supplies, many s diapers. It

(20:23):
was like community action in a way that like I've
never seen.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
So that's what people were doing, you know, during the
days after and during this catastrophe. But of course people
are still doing stuff, and we want to add to that.
So we're going to donate ten thousand dollars to the
Los Angeles Regional Food Bank. The Food Bank works with
hundreds of partner agencies across Los Angeles County to provide
food assistance to those who have been affected by the wildfires.

(20:49):
So we just wanted to add a little to that.
I have like three giant bags of clothes that I'm
waiting to donate until people want vintage dresses. Yeah, because
I don't think that's the first thing you want when
you're no, you know what I mean, Yes I do.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
It's like, hey, do you want to wear a dress
it has polka dots and reminds you of your grandma.
It's like, not right now, right now? Do you have
any sweatpants? I need sweatpants, I need a sweatshirt, and
I need you to make me a bunch of hot dogs.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
So the coming months, look out for those benched dresses everywhere.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, that's right. And if you are watching this on YouTube,
there should be a button that pops up where you
if you would like to donate to the La Regional
Food Bank, then there's should be a button that pops
up on this video and you can do that directly.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
It's lafoodbank dot org.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah all right. We have a podcast network. It's called
the Exactly Right Podcast Network. Yeah, yeah, exactly right, sure,
and there's all kinds of podcasts on there. We like
to tell you about some of the stuff that's going on.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
We do, and we have some exciting news. The first
episode of our brand new film podcast, Dear Movies, I
Love You is out now and you can finally listen
for yourselves and understand why we are so in love
with podcast.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
In their first episode, they talk about the twenty eighteen
remake of A Star is Born, They go into the
age old tradition of drinking on film, and of course
their guest is is comedian Chileia Sharp, who is hilarious
and talks for quite some time with them about the
film trilogy Magic Mike.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh good, so, because we need that.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
A lot of film gets discussed on this episode. It's
a great premiere episode. Yeah, really really entertaining.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
It would mean a lot to us if you guys
could follow that could subscribe to their episodes. Could get
a little heart going on that. Yeah, five stars, whatever
it is, it really helps and we appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
And it's your friend Milli Jaceriko from I Saw What
You Did? Yeah, and the producer of that podcast, Casey O'Brien,
who are now hosting that. It's just like family fun
for everybody.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
To your movies. I love you. And speaking of amazing
guests this week on Do You Need a Ride, actor
and comedian Sam Pancake. I love Sam hops in the
passenger seat, one of the.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Greats of our time, the greatest. I just remember recording
that episode and it was just a delight. Then, also
over on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler Dawson's talking to author
Michael Arn'tfield about his book Monstro City, Murder, Music and
Mayhem and Nashville's Dark Age. Who I want to read that?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
And speaking of books, Kate's brand new book The Sinners
All Bow two authors One Murder and The Real Hester
Prinne is out now. Kate Winkler Dawson the most prolific
person I've ever met. We're so lucky to get to
work with her, just like she's so talented. Yeah, and
you must read it.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah. Also, we have some bittersweet news. We are saying
goodbye to the Lady to Lady podcast Brandy, Babs and Tests.
We want to thank you for all your great work
over the years. You'll always be a part of the
Exactly Right family and listeners please look for and support
Lady to Lady wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so

(23:54):
today I'm going to tell you about a domestic violence
case from the seventies that carries a massive legacy and
has changed our perception of spousal abuse and just a
listener note, this story deals with very severe domestic abuse
and suicidal ideation. At the time, spousal abuse was treated

(24:16):
as a private matter between a husband and a wife
at best, and then at worst, it was dismissed, ignored,
or joked about. In fact, Miss Magazine, which at the
time was one of the few outlets that was actually
pushing back at this kind of language and energy, regularly

(24:37):
asked readers to send in sexist ads that they found
in like newspapers and magazines. No way, huh, And in
nineteen seventy three, someone sent in a print advertisement for
a bowling alley in Michigan that read, in big bold lettering,
have some fun, beat your wife tonight, Jesus. And right now,

(24:58):
if you listen closely, you can hear Bill Maher scrambling
to defend this comedy and how hilarious it is.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
What what a joke? What a top tier joke?

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, this was America in the seventies. And what's really
weird that sometimes this happens on the show, and it's
kind of what I'm in it for, if I'm going
to be honest, is when I was there for a
cultural moment totally. I was fourteen years old. The reason
I know this case is because of a made for
TV movie that came out when I was fourteen, So

(25:32):
like a handful of years after it happened, ohay, and
you remember it, oh like it was yesterday. And I
remember not only watching it and experiencing it, but then
what happened after it. Wow. And it was one of
those things that I think these days a lot of
it had the natural, almost viral effect, but it was
nineteen eighty four, which so that never happened. And it

(25:56):
was that kind of thing where suddenly people were seeing
and talking about this issue in a completely.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Different way, because I feel like, like with so many
of these things, the idea was shame, so you wouldn't
share it, so no one knew how big the problem was.
No one knew that they had other people they could
connect to who are also going through it. You kept quiet. Yeah,
and when these things come out in public, it's not
our fucking shame. Yeah, you know, yes, Okay, So what
was the movie called. I'm going to tell you it

(26:23):
started Fara Faucet. Okay, Now, this was Fara Faucet when
I was a young girl. She was one of the
stars of Charlie's Angels. Legendary.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, and she herself legendary, but for like at Charlie's Angels,
I was on the love boat. She was basically the
most beautiful woman in America. She did movies and stuff,
but she wasn't known for acting first. She was known
for beauty first. This changed that. Wow, she stars in
it and does such an unbelievably amazing job. It was

(26:54):
like no one could believe it was. It was truly incredible.
As I just I remember not being able to believe
what I was looking at. The Other part of it
was this thing was, you know, I don't know, if
you had a lot of experience with made for TV
movies or that, like CBS Friday Night at the Movies
or whatever. Yeah, but it was usually kind of family oriented,

(27:17):
you know. It's kind of like, this is a true
story of a horse, right whatever.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
It's almost it's soap opera y. It's not very realistic.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Someone everyone could watch it. It would be like either
inspirational or yeah, romantic or whatever. This was like a
true crime documentary. It was so upsetting, it was so harsh,
it was so it was so realistic, and the abuse
scenes were like wow, unlike anything anyone from quite the opposite,

(27:50):
and for the time, it was totally revolutionary. I would say,
although this is my opinion, it shocked the nation. You
could use that phrase the day after. It was what
everyone was talking about. It essentially ripped off the mask
of wife beater jokes because it exposed the true, horrifying
nightmare of living life with a violent abuser and what

(28:11):
years of life with a violent abuser can actually lead to.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
At the toll it takes. It's yeah, yeah, So this.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Is the story of Francine Hughes and the burning bed murder,
a case that forced the issue of domestic violence out
of the shadows and into popular culture. The main sources
used today are the book The Burning Bed by Faith McNulty,
a twenty twenty mini documentary from The Retro Report, and
The New Yorker entitled The Domestic Violence Case That Turned

(28:42):
Outrage into Action. A nineteen eighty four People magazine article
by Joya de Laberto entitled A Violent Death A Haunted Life,
and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.
So our story begins in Michigan in August of nineteen
forty seven, and that's when Francis Hughes is born. Her dad, Walter,

(29:03):
is a blue collar laborer who works on farms and
in factories. Her mom, Hazel, is a waitress. They have
six children, including Francine. They live in poverty, which of
course is made worse because Walter squanders everything they have
on alcohol and gambling, and he's also physically abusive towards Hazel.

(29:26):
Francine leaves her parents' house as soon as she can.
When she's sixteen years old, she drops out of high
school and marries a man named Mickey Hughes who's three
years older than her. So a sixteen year old and
a nineteen year old.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, the only way to get out of your house too,
is to marry someone you know.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Was back then. Yeah, right, women were so at this time,
which would have been like what late fifties, early sixties,
women's independence like was almost impossible. It was so restricted.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, you couldn't get a account under your own, Eme.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Couldn't get it, not without your dad or your husband.
And then you have a dad, like, let's go ahead
and name him Walter. So Walter's the guy that if
you don't have somebody better than Walter in your life,
then you're just screwed totally. So Francine says, quote, I
thought he was so sophisticated. He had his own car,
and most people I knew didn't. So within weeks of

(30:25):
their wedding, Mickey's behavior toward Franccene changes. She will later remember, quote,
I bought some new clothes. He ripped them off me.
I don't know whether I look too pretty or what,
but he didn't want me to look that way. I
was shocked because I'd never been treated like that before.
What do you do when you're sixteen years old and
you had to beg your parents to let you get
married of course he said, I'm sorry, forgive me, It'll

(30:48):
never happen again, and I believed him. But it did
happen again, and by that time I was pregnant and
felt like I had to make the best of it.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Baby Angel tough.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
So by the time Francene's twenty two, she has four
children with Mickey Wow, two daughters and two sons. But
Micky can't hold down a job. The money he does
earn goes to his growing drinking habit, not his family,
So now Francine is stuck in the same cycle her
own mother was stuck in. Her full time job is
caring for her children, but Mickey's drinking and gambling make

(31:23):
it nearly impossible for her to buy groceries or pay rent,
and at one point she's left to feed her kids
popcorn that she misses with jelly and water just for
the calories. So meanwhile, Francine lives with the looming threat
of violence at the hands of her husband, not constantly,
because sometimes Micky can be loving when he wants to be,

(31:45):
but Francine learns to walk on eggshells around him.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Her son James later reflects on the.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Tense atmosphere in their home by saying, quote, a lot
of stuff went on behind closed doors. She was scared
a lot of my dad. I know that she lived
in constant fear because little things would set him off.
She might say a word and just the inflection of
the way she said it may set him off, start
making him mad. So when Mickey's mad, he usually takes

(32:11):
it out on Francine. Sometimes this happens in front of
the children, and sometimes it's so bad the cops are called,
but Mickey never faces any real consequences because at the time,
police officers would only make an arrest if they themselves
witness the assault firsthand. Otherwise they just file their report.
Now these days, that's changed and most jurisdictions officers can

(32:36):
make arrests citing probable cause based on injuries or witnesses statements. So,
of course, once the police are called to stop this
horrible domestic abuse and then it stops, then they leave.
Mickey just goes back to beating Francine again. And so
of course the natural question that we have heard in

(32:56):
the past is why doesn't she leave. I think a
lot of people, especially since like the eighties, it just
people who are interested in knowing the real answer to
questions like that, know that it is much. It is
an incredibly complex situation to be in when abuser and abused.
There's no question Francine wants a different life for herself.

(33:19):
Along with the physical abuse, Mickey controls every aspect of
her life, down to whether or not she can have friends.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
And we've talked about how difficult it can be for
women to leave their abuser, but it's worth saying again
Escaping abuse can be extremely complex because abusers often use physical, financial,
and psychological manipulation to trap their victims in a vicious
cycle of control. Totally. Also, there's stigma around intimate partner violence,

(33:49):
as well as societal or family pressures, like when you
want to leave, but you're you have the kind of
like mother who might say no, no, that's look, You've
got to put up with him, or you've got to
make it so he doesn't do that. Totally, that's a
society we've lived in for a long time. The women
have to fix their men's deep psychological issues or take

(34:12):
responsibility for them. The genuine love for your abuser can
keep you in that situation, but also so does the
degradation of the victim's spirit. As attorney and advocate Tiffany
Smith explained to retro Report, quote, this big question remains
in people's minds who have not been through this or
do not understand this, which is why didn't you just leave?

(34:34):
A woman doesn't go on a first date, get punched
in the face, and stay with this person. What happens
is very calculating, very slow. You're humiliated, you're threatened, you've
been told over and over again you're worthless, and it
builds and builds until leaving feels impossible. And more than that,
it's deadly. Women are more likely to be killed immediately
after leaving than at any other time. Yeah. Also, it's

(35:00):
of course more difficult when children are in the equation,
because the abuser could threaten to harm them or take
them away, or the victim might not be able to
provide for independent life outside of the home. There's all
that to be considered. But then at this time, when
Francine was going through it, there's huge financial and social

(35:20):
barriers making it harder for women to establish their independence,
and that it essentially forces the victim to become reliant
on their abuser.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
It's so calculating, but you're right.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
For example, before the passage of the Equal Credit Opportunity
Act in nineteen seventy four, most women can't open a
credit card or get alone in their own name at
most banks in the country without a male co signer.
And again that restriction that discrimination was legal until the
mid seventies. It's so that one is such a mind

(35:52):
blower when you tell the young women of today stuff
like that, where it's like, I was four years old
when it became legal for women to have their own
credit card without their husband's name on it. That's fucking ridiculous. Also,
this was a time when there are virtually no emergency
resources for women experiencing domestic violence, like shelters or organizations

(36:15):
that are geared toward the problem. Specifically, they basically don't
exist in a meaningful way. This leaves Franccene with no options,
no support. With all of that in mind, in nineteen
seventy one, Francine manages to successfully file for divorce, and
essentially this is out of pure desperation. She has to

(36:36):
legally separate from Mickey to access the social programs that
will help keep her family housed and fed. So it's
basically like that's the only option, which then in that
what a horrible like a puzzle to be in at
that time. So it's like, oh so if you have
the a piece of shit husban like this at that

(36:56):
time and it will require you to these social services,
Oh you have to break up with him. That's because
it's because it's on you what he's doing.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
You can just go do that. It's like we're keeping
it from you. Yeah, in a way, that's just.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Like, yeah, that only punishes the victim. Yeah, Micky's forced
to move out of the family home, but he ignores
this concept of divorce at all. Francine says, quote, things
were no different than before Mickey came and went as
he pleased. Then, weeks after this divorce is finalized, Mickey
gets into a car accident that almost kills him. He

(37:32):
breaks several bones, he suffers a serious head injury. He
winds up in a coma. He spends more than a
month recovering in the hospital. Franccene, after years of his
abuse and manipulation, has been conditioned to prioritize his needs
over her own, of course always, and also to fear
his retribution if she does not do that, so she

(37:52):
visits Mickey in the hospital, and once he's released, he
just moves back into the house with her so that
she can basically take care of him. Francine will later
explain her decision, saying, quote, I really felt trapped after
this accident. I don't know why I felt so obligated
to that man, but I did. Then the real hell began.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
This reminds me that show, this TV show made with
Margaret Qualley, Oh yejob of showcasing, like the just why
didn't you just leave or why did you go back?
It's just really the nuance and the subtleties in it.
It does a really great job of that. Right.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's like you saw the Twilight Zone movie right from
the eighties, which one it's the one that was like
it was an anthology, so it was a bunch of
different little mini movies in one big movie. But there's
a part that's like there's a racist that's being racist
and like yelling slurs, and then he off of the
slur he says to someone is immediately dropped into the

(38:48):
situation where that person of this slur, he is that
person going through the worst of what that group of
people went through, and it is mind blowing, and it's
that kind of thing where it's like it would be
a great Paul send someone. Yeah, it's like, oh is
that your question? Go find out right yourself.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
So the problem is Mickey is recovering from his car accident,
drinking more than ever, the abuse toward Franccene becomes more frequent.
He beats her multiple times a week, sometimes for hours
at a time in between his trips to the bar.
She remembers how a few peaceful days would pass here
and there, and then she'd live in terror of going

(39:31):
to sleep at night when he wasn't there because quote,
I might wake up being slugged Jesus Christ. Here's another
quote from her. Francine says, quote I thought, well, maybe
I could kill myself. But then I thought if I
kill myself, who's going to take care of the kids.
Nobody could love them like me. I would conjure up
schemes about how I would sneak up to the airport

(39:52):
with the kids and just leave, but I would picture
us sitting on a park bench with nowhere to go.
Then I would get scared thinking about what Mickey would
do if he found me. So several years go by
and then in nineteen seventy seven, when Francine is now
just twenty nine years old, she's subjected to one of
Mickey's worst assaults after he learns that she is enrolled

(40:14):
in classes to become a secretary. Wow. He forces her
to burn her school books in the yard and threatens
to sledge hammer the car so she can't get to school,
so he just loses it. That same night, Franccene prepares
microwave dinners for the family, but Mickey isn't happy. So
this is the scene I can literally see in my

(40:34):
head really from when I was fourteen years old it
because it's kind of like they don't spend a ton
of time in the back and forth of like the
growing abuse thing. It's kind of like you get what's happening.
They do it. It's so realistic, and basically it's that
scene where she microwaves these dinners and puts them out
and he's drunk and he doesn't like it. And then

(40:55):
it's like somebody filmed a real domestic abusage situation and
put it on television. It was that wild and graphic
and horrifying and like nothing. They didn't pretty it up.
They didn't cut away. It was unbelievable and really scary.
So this is what he does. He dumps the meals

(41:18):
from their containers onto the floor. He slams his fists
so hard on the table one of his kids glasses
of milk spills and breaks on the floor. Then, of course,
right there we go. Kids are sent upstairs. As Francene
is trying to clean up this mess. Mickey removes garbage
from the garbage can and starts to smear it into
her hair, and then he begins beating her. Francene can

(41:42):
hear her kids crying upstairs and yelling down, mommy, are
you all right. So at one point during this assault,
one of Francine's daughters ends up calling the police. By
the time they arrive, he stopped beating her again. Because
the police don't witness anything firsthand, they don't arrest him.
This is despite Mickey threatening Francine's life right in front

(42:03):
of them. One of the responding officers later testifies quote,
he told her it was all over for her because
she called me. He made numerous threats that he would
kill her, and he made threats to me.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
What the fuck.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, I'm sure for those cops too, They're like, this
is a drunken monster that we don't want to deal with,
and like and what's going to happen anyway? They're just
going to bring him back here, Like they know the system,
there's no process in place to fix this, so like
they're just kind of like, well, this is your problem.

(42:36):
That was probably the morally easiest thing to do is
kind of be like that. But I'm sure then at
this point they know it's just like you, what is
there to do now? So we can assume the cop
talks Mickey down, or the cops talk Mickey down, they
make a report, they leave. His abuse continues. He forces

(42:58):
Francine to make a new dinner for her, then he
rapes her. Afterwards, he falls asleep in a drunken haze. Francine,
though is done. She says, quote, I was thinking about
all the things that had happened to me, all the
times he'd hurt me, how he'd hurt the kids. I
stood still for a moment, hesitating, and a voice urged

(43:19):
me on it, whispered, do it, do it?

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Do it?

Speaker 2 (43:23):
So she puts her kids in her car. Then she
goes to the garage and gets a can of gasoline.
She goes to the bedroom where Mickey's passed out, douses
the area around the bed lights a match, tosses it
at the gas soaked floor, runs out of the house
as it goes up in flames. Holy shit, And now
she's in the car with her kids. She drives straight

(43:43):
to the county jail and turns herself in.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Wow. I mean, how fucking desperate do you have to
be that that is your best option?

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, that's all you can do.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, that's all you could do it not just leave.
There's no just leaving.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
No, this is my only option. Yeah, you knew it.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
I like going to the coping for my kids.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
I finished it. Nobody else seemed to be able to Jesus. Firefighters,
of course, are deployed to the Hughes home. By the
time they get there, Mickey's dead and Francine Hughes is
charged with first degree murder and put in jail. Francine
willingly and admittedly murdered her husband while he was sleeping.
As one officer put it, there was no question that

(44:26):
the system had failed her. But in our system, the
excuse for system failures is not to commit first degree murder. Well,
thank you, for that wonderful lesson. It's like calling a
system failure. It's like, this isn't like we had a
gas leap, right, This is a man who for a
decade punches his wife in the face and everyone knows

(44:47):
it and no one does shit about it.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah, no one's going to fucking help you. No one's
going to do anything to stop it.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
So Francine spends the next several months in jail until
her trial begins, and when it does, the stakes or
enormous because she isn't just fighting for her freedom, she's
also up against the very nineteen seventies attitudes that blame
women for their circumstances and look for any excuse not
to hold male abusers accountable for the sum total of
their actions, which is their murders.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
So, when the case begins, Francine's lawyer argues that after
years of Mickey's relentless abuse, Franccene experienced temporary insanity when
she killed him. The timing of this case is very
important because at the time, feminist groups had already spent
years trying to raise awareness and organize around the issue
espousal abuse and domestic violence, and writer Faith McNulty will

(45:40):
later put it, quote, had it occurred a decade earlier,
the facts underlying the crime would probably have never been
widely known. But in the seventies there was a new
willingness to listen to a story such as Francie Wow.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
And I think that new willingness had to do with
basically enough women, like you're saying, like women talking to
each other, women telling each other you're not alone and
you don't have to stay there and we'll figure something out,
or or just like maybe the basic empowerment of you
can have a checking account and maybe figure something out,

(46:16):
because you think of stories after this where women being
abused saving money and like a secret checking account to
get away.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, because financial abuse is such a great way to
control someone. Yeah, yeah, let's just control everything. Right.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
So obviously this case becomes national news. The big networks
fled Francine's small Michigan town, and The New York Times
writes that Francine's case becomes a quote cause celeb for
the feminist movement.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, feminists, But also.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
I don't know, I just get the tone of like, oh,
it's a cause celeb. It's like she had to kill
him to get him to stop hitting right right in
the courtroom, a jury of two men and ten women
and eventually hand down their verdict. They agreed that Francine
suffered from temporary insanity and she is acquitted for the
murder of her husband.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
How did they get that jury?

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Like those lawyers? The lawyers were good, But I also
wonder if like those lawyers were good, but the people,
I mean, wherever this was tried, it'd be very I mean,
I would I want to read this book. Yeah, but
that the people in that community not only knew of

(47:31):
him and knew this reality, but so many people have
lived through this in some way. If like, if you're
not the spouse, then you're the kid watching that happen,
Like plenty of people being like yeah, enough of this,
and enough of women going to jail because this is
the only option they have.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
It's almost like that verdict was for all the women
that came before her who didn't escape or who were
the ones who were killed. Yes, It's like that verdict
is the message of no more right, you know. Yes.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
So then in nineteen eighty, writer Faith McNulty publishes the
nonfiction book The Burning Bed, all about Francine's life and
about this case, and that, of course, draws more attention
to the issue. Francine gets an eleven thousand dollars advance
for this book, which is worth around forty two thousand
dollars in today's money, and she uses it as a

(48:27):
down payment for a house. Oh wow, so she can
live with her kids and have a place to be safe.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Oh my god, how beautiful.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
But her life doesn't really change materially except for the
attention and the interest in the story. She still has
to make ends meet, so she actually ends up getting
some secretarial work and then she will later operate a
forklift in a factory for a couple of years before
she gets laid off. When this happens, Francine goes to
a dark time, and she says, quote, I went a

(48:58):
little crazy, partying almost every night, trying to escape from something.
I drank a lot, and I was taking speed. It
was like I was trying to self destruct. Yeah, but
it's also you didn't have a childhood. You basically went
from like sophomore year of high school into a nightmare,

(49:19):
nightmare marriage, family situation, like.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
The trauma that you're not dealing with.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, you know. She wasn't in therapy. She wasn't there's
talking to anybody about it. It was like, oh, now,
because it's the abuse, that it's the murder, that it's
the infamy. Oh, there's so much to deal with. Yeah
that of course you just were like, I need to
blot it out. This is when Francine meets a man

(49:44):
named Robert, who'd recently been released from prison after serving
ten years for armed robbery. The nature of this relationship
isn't exactly clear, though a deep dive People magazine article
from the eighties suggests it wasn't a wonderful relationship in
together two weeks after meeting. They get married a month
after that, at Robert's insistence that whirlwind pace can also

(50:08):
be a red flag in some relationships. Francine's marriage to
Robert strains her relationship with her children. Based on reporting,
it seems like they don't at the very best, they
don't like him, and troublingly, one of her daughters will
accuse him of sexual abuse, which he denies. The National
Domestic Violence Hotline points out that one risk factor for

(50:29):
being in a toxic relationship is a lack of exposure
to healthy relationship models or examples, and of course she
meets this guy at a very vulnerable time in her life,
so it's not like she's like, Okay, I also deserve this,
but I went through that in any case, As all
of that is playing out in Francene's actual life, the

(50:50):
book The Burning Bed gets adapted into the made for
TV movie that airs on NBC, starring Farah Fawcett as Francine.
Over set tventy five million people watched this made for
TV movie the night at premieres, including fourteen year old
Karenkilgarriff and her mother, Pat Kilgarriff, who kept going, I
don't think we should watch I don't this is Karen,

(51:13):
this is very I don't think because it truly was
like so graphic and unlike anything ever really had been
up until that point. So this made for TV movie
of Francine's story kicks off a national conversation, and according
to the New York Times quote, the number of shelters
for battered women grew from a mere handful in nineteen

(51:34):
seventy seven to nearly seven hundred the year The Burning
Bed was televised, which was nineteen eighty four. After this,
the term burning bed syndrome becomes the well known shorthand
for the trauma caused by domestic abuse.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
And then later in his twenty sixteen book co written
with writer Alan Steppenwall titled TV the Book, television critic
Matt Zoller Sites named The Burning Bed as the seventh
greatest American TV movie of all time. Holy shit, writing quote,
the film was a landmark in terms of content depicting
domestic violence as an unambiguous horror and a human rights violation.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Sites also praise the performance of Farah Fawcet as one
of the finest in the history of TV movies. Holy shit,
it was crazy. I just wish the difference between Charlie's
Angel Fara Fawcet like supermodel, the hair, the whole thing.
She was just a girl on a poster, and all
of a sudden she was like, watch this.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
That's incredible.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
Watch this. It was amazing. So basically, Francine and Robert
eventually leave Michigan for the South. There, Francine gets her
nursing degree.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
The couple lives in Tennessee and then in Alabama. Francine
finds work in nursing homes and as an in home caregiver,
and she passes away from complications related to pneumonia in
twenty seventeen. Seine Hughes was sixty nine years old at
the time of her death. Her family members have said
that she rarely talked about the case. She was once

(53:08):
quoted as saying, people look at me like they're trying
to figure me out. I don't feel like I have
to explain myself to anybody, and I don't need pity
or sympathy. I'm just an ordinary person end quote. Francine
was an ordinary person whose nightmarish home life was tragically
also not unique. Instead, Francine was a victim of a

(53:29):
much larger systemic problem that persists today. Domestic and intimate
partner violence can and does affect anyone, regardless of a
person's age, sex, education level, or economic background. Within a
year of her trial, Michigan passed new laws dealing with
spousal abuse, and since then more have been introduced that

(53:51):
prioritize victim safety. Of course, there are now shelters, hotlines,
and organizations dedicated to supporting survivors of domestic violence and
or intimate partner violence. Still, Franciine's case isn't the norm.
Despite hand rigging shortly after her verdict about how women
would now be able to shoot their husbands and get

(54:11):
off scott free. The reality is that in the years since,
there have been several high profile cases where a survivor
has been jailed for killing their abuser.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Yeah, there's a lot of those.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, twelve million people
are affected by intimate partner violence each year. One in
four American women and one in seven American men over
the age of eighteen have been the victim of serious
physical violence by an intimate partner one in four and
one in seven.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Like, there's everyone you know. If you don't think you
know anyone that has gone through this, then they're keeping
it a secret, right not telling you. Yes, all it is.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse
or intimate partner violence, please remember you're not alone. They're
not alone. Help is available. You can call the National
Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred and seventy nine
nine safe. Their website is the Hotline dot org Just
the Hotline dot org, and they offer information on warning

(55:13):
signs of abuse, resources in your state, how to support
someone you love that might be experiencing intimate partner violence.
They're free, it's confidential, it's available twenty four to seven.
I'm grateful that we live in a time where I
can pass that information on to all of you as
a woman who has her own checking account and owns

(55:33):
her own home and has some goddamn options in this world.
And that is the story of Francine Hughes and the
Burning bed murder. Wow.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I had never heard that. I had never heard of
it at all.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
No, Oh, I thought I was like when I was
talking about it, I thought you were just like, yeah, yeah,
I know.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
No, as soon as you I was like, as soon
as she says the name of the made for TV movie,
I'll know what she's talking about. I never heard of it.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
God, it's such a specific. I mean, you're four years old,
but it's also such a specific. It's all I can
also remember the Mothers Against Drunk Driving made for TV movie,
those weird, like era changing ideas of like, we don't
have to do this anytime. Then it's very mothers centric.
It's female centric in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Incredible, great job. Yeah, thank you for telling that important story.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Thank you, Thank you. Mary mclashan for being such a
good researcher.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
All right, well we're gonna change gears, Okay, change gears. Yeah,
so I think people change.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Okay, Well we're going to do it, and I'm going
to tell you what I think may be the oldest
story we've done. Maybe, No, you did a really old
one once. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Remember when I did the weather in fourteen, like thirteen,
It was like when the weather was so bad for
a year and a half that everyone just like does
and there's no food and stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
This is fucking older. No, this is older.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Are you about to tell me a Bible story?

Speaker 1 (57:05):
I'm gonna tell you a biblical fucking stuff. Yeah, I'm gonna.
But we are going to go back to the early
days of the Roman Empire? Is that the earliest, like
Gladiator fucking day?

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Pretty early?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Yeah? Early? And it does sound like something straight out
of Game of Thrones and actually was probably a likely
source of inspiration for George R. R. Martin. This is
the story of a woman that what you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Get, I don't know. I'm just yeah, I'm ready for it.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
This is the story of a woman some people describe
as history's first documented serial killer. Oh, this is the
story of Locusta, the poisoner of Rome.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yes, yes, you're ready for her? Yes, please, Hi, let's
do it.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
So there are very limited primary sources about Locusta. She's
only briefly mentioned in surviving histories of Rome. Of course.
It's just like everyone's moved on from nobody.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
They're over it, Italians are let's not.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Talk about it.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
No one was talking about her when I went to Italy.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Right well, But the main sources for the story were
an episode of an adorable podcast called History for Weirdos,
which is super lovely. It's this married couple, they're very smart.
And an article from All That's Interesting by Genevieve Carlton.
So we don't know much about Lacusa's early life. We
know she was born in Gaul. Gaul this is the

(58:24):
region of the Roman Empire that overlaps with modern day
France and Belgium. Like you knew that though I.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
Thought, I honestly thought Germany, and I was like, you
should say Germany and just sound really smart. And then
I was like the other voice that's finally grown in
my head that goes, don't do it, don't you and
ry so don't know.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
The incept, don't you Incept.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
You're kidding yourself up.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
She's born sometimes around fourteen eighty so, and of course
you know this as well, either at the end of
the reign of Augustus or the beginning of the reign
of Time Tiberia.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yes, what's it Tiberius? Yeah, it's because I watched uh,
what's it.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Called Gladiator to.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Starring Paul mescal It's the PBS series from the seventies,
and I keep wanting to take Caligilo.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
But you got it right, So congratulates something stuck.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I mean, it feels good.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
You should be happy for yourself.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
So these two men were Rome's first and second act,
the whole first syllable. Now, I wouldn't I wouldn't have
gotten Tiberious.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
If I had heard time Claudius, thank you, thank you.
I wondered where he was Claudius.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
There you go. And before them, Rome had been a republic.
We're not going to get into the weeds about Rome,
can we not? Yes?

Speaker 2 (59:36):
We cannot for sure, really rather not, but I will
tell you that just this one thing. Yeah, I was
so blown away when I went to Rome to see
these uh places that they used to meet. They're fucking huge.
So like you know when you're thinking about it and
you're just like, oh, friends, Roman's countryman type of stuff,
and you're like, oh, they're probably like on a weird

(59:58):
little rock or you're a thing thinking of like some
Monty Python movie or whatever. Like they're all standing in
a circle in a market place.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Now these things were like fifteen story buildings.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Wow, like and they're still standing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Change and they're still standing. And then there's like metal
statuary on top of that. Like it was, Yeah, I'm blowing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
What a time I want to go, But stop it
because we're not getting into the weeds.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
I'm totally done.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Essentially, though, the Empire emerged after a series of civil
wars destabilized the Republic. Julius Caesar, your bff, a senator,
tried to seize power and install himself as a dictator,
which is why he was famously assassinated. But Augustus, the
first Emperor, was his nephew, and he eventually overpowered the
senators who had conspired against Caesar. So this is where

(01:00:46):
we are now. Okay, so right around this time, this
is where Luqusta ends up. In the city of Rome.
She's a young woman and I looked at the like
one or two drawings of her that I don't know
what time period they're from. That could be modern, could
be old. But I cast her as Jessica Chestain, Oh,
just for fun and interesting. Yeah, that's just was my

(01:01:07):
immediate thought. Got it, And it's likely that she had
been enslaved or brought there as a captive of Julius
Caesar's campaign in Gaul so had the campaign where she's from,
and she ends up there, so it's probably brought over
slavery campuses somehow. During her upbringing she learned a huge
amount about herbs, plants and poison making, but there's no

(01:01:31):
record of how. It's likely that this knowledge would have
been passed down within her family as it was, and
this period, Louqusta is born into the end of the
Republic and the beginning of the Empire is the beginning
what's actually a pretty great fucking time to be a
Roman citizen. It sounds pretty sweet. It's where they get
the saying bread and circuses, which I've never heard before,
but Ali thankfully put in here. And you're not a

(01:01:53):
clink you've heard of it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Well, it's the thing that they talk about more like,
that's how they distract us. And then that everybody's corrupt
in the government and they give us our bread and circus.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
That's what it says here. The empires keep the people happy,
both writing, free food and entertainment, including the gladiators, and
then they fuck off and do their own thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
And then we all fight about like the Kardashian of gladiators.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Right over here they got more food and circuses than
I did, and how that person doesn't deserve as many
circuses because they're lower than me, and I'm yeah, And
then we fight with each other and ignore the fucking oligarchs.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
And the billionaires don't pay tax.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
And the billionaires don't pay taxes, and corporations are in
the fucking country. Yeah, what where are we.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Going an empire? You say, Okay, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
So this is where kind of the beginning of the opulent,
technologically advanced city of Rome, the expanding empire around it.
It's good to be fucking wealthy in Rome at this time,
but of course, at this point in time, it's not
good to be a person living in one of the
areas Rome is conquering but within the city of Rome,
even an average Roman citizen, life's pretty stable and conditions
are comfortable, you know, comparatively.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
It's no Victorian England. This is the two times I know, yeah,
pretty much in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yes, this period of time is called the Pax Romana,
and it will last about two hundred years, and then
the Empire will decline and fall, and after that it's
the Dark Ages, super fun, and then it's lights out
for Europe until the Renaissance. Yeah, so that's where we're
at right now, in this kind of wine and roses.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Hell yeah, a lot of parades, a lot of like right, yeah,
a lot of flowers being dropped down from high.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Yes, this is around when the movie Gladiator takes place,
or a little Gladiators a little later, but around this time.
But while normal people are enjoying themselves, the ruling class
is still constantly full of infighting, jockeying for power and
assassinating one another. It's kind of their thing. This presents
an opportunity for a girl from Gaul with a deep

(01:03:50):
knowledge of plants and poisons. You got to use what
you know, so.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Why don't we know it anymore? That's like is that
what's in the Vatican secret.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Libraries or all the sorcery plant fucking recipes.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
All the stuff that really needs to help us.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
So in her early career in Rome, Lacusta works with
two other women to make poisons for wealthy clients. The
three of them are often referred to as sorceresses. Lacusta
becomes independently wealthy for doing this. Fucking get it, girls,
she would have used hashtag boss bitch. Yes, if she
had Instagram do it? You know. Lacusta makes a name
for herself.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
She's boss bitching but writing it on the wall. Yeah
in Roman numeral.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Somehow, but I can't read. She makes a name for herself.
She's hired by members of Rome's elite to help them
carry out assassinations in their various power struggles, and by
fifty four AD, when she's about forty years old, she's
been arrested and convicted on multiple occasions. However, her powerful
clients get her off every time. Yeah, we don't know

(01:04:56):
about all the poisons Lacusta uses. Unfortunately those are secrets now,
but records show that she used Belladonna or Deadly nightshade,
as well as arsenic and the litany of other poisons.
I think you'd have to imagine Sally from the Night
before Christmas, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Yeah, just a skinny, pale girl that's like, I like
to combine things, little love.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
This, and it sounds like she also knows how to
create new poisons from different combinations. So she's fucking smart.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Also, I didn't realize that until now. It's like, oh, yeah,
there was all kinds of poisonings happening, like palace intrigues
type stuff. Yeah. Those rich people aren't just gonna have
poison on it, like they have to buy it right somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
They don't make it themselves. I just realized that, Yeah, poisoners.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
So by this point we're on Rome's fourth emperor, Claudius Augustus.
The first emperor had essentially consolidated power and set Rome
on this path to growth and conquest, and then there
were two other emperors until Claudius. Claudius marries his niece,
a woman named Agrippina, who had already been married like
oh my god, drama, and whose first husband had died,

(01:06:03):
possibly by poisoning. Agrippina has a son from that previous marriage.
His name you want to try to guess. Yeah, you
don't have to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Does it start with? Now? Okay, start it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Now you're gonna know the name, and so you're gonna
I wish I had known, Oh Nero?

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
So Nero obviously doesn't really have a particularly strong claim
to the Roman throne because he's the son of the
second wife, you know what I mean. But Agrippina is like,
but let's change that. I'm the new wife or I'm
the wife. Let me figure this out. Agrippina convinces Claudius
to change his will, making her son Nero the heir

(01:06:44):
to the throne. This is in spite of Claudius having
a biological son, and after Claudius changes his will, Agrippina
wants to make sure that he doesn't have time in
life to change it back. You know what I'm saying,
So she turns to Lucusta, by this time is well
known among Roman elites. Agrippina and Locusta wait for a

(01:07:05):
day when Claudius's most loyal servant has the day off.
They had days off back then.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
That's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Interesting, They poison a dish of mushrooms, which is Claudius's
favorite food, and it's unclear if the mushrooms themselves are poisonous,
or if she applies poisoned to the mushrooms. We don't
know how she saw Tad and sean Tad. Other people
say he was actually poisoned by Belladonna brud into a tea. Regardless,
The story goes that Claudius gets sick. His doctor comes

(01:07:31):
to see him, and I don't know why every single
doctor who went to see any patient ever was back then.
Wasn't first like you're being poisoned, right, because everyone's fucking poisoned, right,
It was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
So common, especially in the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
Palace, right, Yeah, like kind of should be number one.
Number two is like gout or whatever, you know, I
don't know what do they get. The doctor gives Claudius
a feather to stick down his throat to induce vomiting.
That's doctors, then.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
I mean, that's it also, but that's how they did
it in the vomitorium, right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Right, right, But the feather has been coded in more
poison And we don't know if Agrippina did this or
if the doctor was involved. However, they're locking it down. Yeah, Okay,
Claudius dies, Okay, After Claudius dies, Agrippina, who hired Lauqesta
has Luquesta jailed for the poisoning, which seems like a
bad idea because you just talk right and you're like, oh,

(01:08:20):
I didn't do this on my own, right, I don't
get it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
It's a weird move, clearly, like a paranoia move.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Because also it's all going to be down to her obviously, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
Like get rid of the evidence, but like the evidence
can talk. But this doesn't matter because her son, Nero
quickly frees her because he also needs her help. So
Claudius's biological.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Son is a man named give me the first letter.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
B are Britannicus. Oh, I got that, and I'm not
gonna He's named this because the Romans had recently expanded
the empire to Britain around his time of birth. I
don't know Britannicus. Sure, my name is Georgia. Like what
am I going to say?

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
You can't judge?

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
You can't, I truly can't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Britannicus still has a powerful claim to the Roman throne. Sadly,
he's only thirteen years old. When his pops dies in
fifty five, ad Nero pardons Lucusta and quickly hires her
to kill thirteen year old Britannicus, which is like, just
send him to a fucking island.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
They can't. It's always killing with them, so much killing,
so much killing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
He wants her to make his death appear to be
of natural causes. At thirteen, Lucusta attempts to poison him
with arsenic, but it doesn't work, and Nero has her
flogged for this. I don't think that's the best thing.
Lo Custa flaw. Yeah, oh okay, but they try again.
Nero throws a dinner party. Wine is served. The Romans
would serve their wine diluted with water, blah blah blah. Basically,

(01:09:47):
before Britannicus takes a sip of his wine, his taster,
who's specifically they are to test for poison, takes a sip,
says it's fine, and then Britannicus is like, oh, top
me off with that kind of that water. Turns out
that water with the poison. Oh, so the tester didn't
drink it. Again, Britannicus drinks it. It's probably belladonna. And
thing is Britannicus has epilepsy. The other people at the

(01:10:09):
dinner party know this, so when he basically stops being
able to speak. Nero's like, oh, he's just having a seizure,
which is like, again, let's start with poisoning.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Yeah, in the place if you're like, well, there's the
heir to the throne. Yeah, I'm sure there's no problem.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
No, we're all fine.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Britannicus is brought to another room to recover, but it's
where he ultimately suffocates and dies at thirteen. According to lore,
the poison locusta used was known by the Romans to
turn a victim's skin red, and Britannicus is buried very
quickly after his murder. This is so Game of Thrones. Yeah,
with his face painted with a white chalk to hide

(01:10:47):
his red skin. People just aren't really paying attention. I
feel like back then.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Or they're just not staring into the face maybe for
very long, or.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
They're like I'm not the one to say anything.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Well right, there's poisoners everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
That's the fucking king or whatever, and you're just like,
that's not for me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
I got to tell you, if anybody wants to watch it,
I Claudius is a pretty amazing It's like old British
incredible actors kind of is like they're doing a play
on a TV stage. Yeah, and all of this stuff
is like the steaks are insane.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Okay, yeah, I'm into.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
It because then it's like, if you live and you're
the one that doesn't get poisoned, you get to have
like all of Germany, right, you get to help. Do
you like Scotland? You can have it. We have stuff
all the way up in Ireland.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
But then someone's coming for you too.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Yeah, you know that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
I can't poison everyone and whatever poison you, I know something.
But just because he has that chalk on his face,
just before his burial, it starts to rain, showing the
red skin under the white chalk. So it's immediately known
throughout Rome that Britannicus has been poisoned.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
There's also probably like a no snitching on you know
Nero policy going.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Oh yeah, he'll kill you immediately, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
Yeah, like just keep your mouth shut. Nero rewards Lucusta
for securing the throne for him. He pays her, he
gives her land, and he ultimately tasks her with opening
up a school to teach other people to be poisoners.
It's like a happy ending.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Yeah, that is really positive.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Yeah, He also grants her immunity for all future crimes.
Does that sound familiar?

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Not at all, not in anyway fast forward immunity.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Some accounts say that Lucusta is given enslaved people and
prisoners to test her poisons on. That's just a rumor,
and this is where the idea comes from that she
is the first known serial killer, which is so funny,
Like you don't think about like you think of serial
killer as a recent thing, right, but it was probably
happening a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Just the second the first human brain that got a
weird little, yeah screw fallout of it type of thing. Sorry,
that's an oversimplification.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
No, that's psychopathically, but from what I've read, I.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Mean, especially back then, Yeah, it was much before it
was a sin, you know, what happened all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Definitely, And some people will say it at this point,
she just starts poisoning people because she enjoys it. She
sounds like she's good at it, you know, I'm not
just as a higher assassin. We don't know much about
what else happens to Lucusta for about fifteen years until
she's in her mid fifties. During this time, Nero has
made a lot of enemies. In fact, during this time period,
Nero actually murders his own mother. I fucking put him

(01:13:26):
in the throne. Yeah, like thanks a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Just ungrateful. Yeah, a little bastard, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
In sixty eight eighty, Nero is unseated by a man
named Galba and is forced to flee Rome.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Sorry but right there, if I was like, Goalba's now
in charge, I'd be like, yeah, no, this isn't going
to last.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
Why because you never gol blah, Yeah, let's not DIDs.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
You don't have any us. At the end, Galba is
fucking Goalba. Oh my god, it's over.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
Let's all get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
You gotta get out of room.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
And Nero dies by suicide. Shortly after this, the new Emperor,
your best friend, Galba overturns Locusta's immunity because that can
be done as well.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Yes we've heard.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
Then this comes as part of a purge of all
of Nero's closest advisors. So for fifteen fucking years, Locusta
was a living the good life.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Yeah, and you know, nothing lasts, No, it doesn't. Time
is of construct. The pendulum swings and swings.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
Exactly flat circle. Galba accuses Lucusta of killing more than
four hundred people and sentences her to death, so she
is executed. Although it's not known exactly how. There are
two legends, the story always begins with her being marched
through the streets of.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Rome in chains shame all of Game of Thrones.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Yes, yeah, some say she is then strangled or burnt,
or a combination of the two. Public executions are common
in Rome and often take place during gladiator games, like
there's that entertainment circus that you wanted. In addition to burning,
other methods of execution include crucifixion, which seems like it's

(01:15:00):
reserved for special circumstances, as well as exposure to wild beasts.
That's a hell now, I mean they're all hell now.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
They're all pretty but not Yeah, but yeah, what did
just you just get thrown in a pit with a
bunch of coyotes?

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Oh god? Well, anyway, that's the end of Locusta's story
as we know it, which there isn't a ton Let's
get Jessica Chestain on the line and fucking get an
exactly right pictures fucking movie out here.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
Also, if you have a history podcast where you go
into this part of Roman history in depth, I'll listen
to it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
I'm telling you, it's no history for weirdos. They clearly
went to school like us.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
Should I go there first?

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
Yeah, they know what they're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
They're good explains, they're.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
Good explainers, and they like have details off the top
of their mind in a way that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
I don't understand because they studied.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Because they studied and probably didn't drink themselves into oblivion
in their thirties. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
I think the thing about people who learned a lot
in stay in school is that it's because they read
books and got what was happening. And then we're like,
oh my god, this is a great factoid, which I
feel like you and I are both the kind of
people had we not been born with these brains that
would we would have been those people. But like this,
sitting in the seat and being told what to do.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Totally, the distractions and.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
The time away from drinking, all of that disinterest.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
Yeah, and I'm fine with that. We're not all going
to be We're not all supposed to.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Be the same, No, But I feel like these days,
you know, history for weirdos, there are people who got
really good at teaching because they understand what's interesting about
history or like that. It's here's how you bring into
history to life, which.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
This podcast will kill you a great example. Oh so smart.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Learning about that kind of stuff where it's like, oh,
often we put a mental block up. Yeah, it's like,
oh history I did, that's boring. It's like, it's so not.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
Boring, boring. I'm a big fan of history, I really am.
And that is everything we know about the woman who
was possibly the first serial killer, locusta poisoner of Rome.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
Wow, that was great.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
You want to dip into Roman, the Roman Empire every
once in a while to tell me about it. I
am here for it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Okay, we have to. There's a whole there's a whole
time period.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Thousands and thousands of years, thousands of years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
Okay, Wow, good, I'm glad you like that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Yeah that was great. Thanks, wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
All right, Well we did it. We got some beautiful
This has been like huge, well rounded episode.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
That's what we're like, you know what I mean. It's
like I feel like we're able to get in there
and really produce.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Everything is handed to us as we walk in the door.
Every single thing is thought through.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
For ADHD because we were born with it. They can't
hand that to me. You can't hand that to you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
Can't print that up on a copier and a different
part of the building I've never seen.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
No, you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
Well, thank you guys for being here and being part
of this so appreciative.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Yeah, we really love it. And one last thank you
to all our ceramic ceramicists ceramicists artists for the ninth anniversary.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Including Emily aka Pottery Mama, Missy aka Young Yenta, Sam
Regal with that beautiful mug, and Lindsey Cook with the
Altered Moments figurine every good. I've just been like talking
to you this whole time and listening to you with
these beautiful things behind your head, and I'm so distracted,
and i keep just going, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
You know we do is take these and put them
down here and put these things up here so these
guys get a little time in the sun.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
Yeah, right, definitely. We're interior designers.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
We are, and we're going to fill up these shelves
with all of the beautiful It's just so nice that
we have the kind of listeners that and you guys
have been like this from day one. Yeah, that like
we go like, hey, can we have a thing about
like hey, will you dotas well real employers.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
And then it's like boom, here that's my specialty. Yeah boom,
And I'm funny and creative.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
Yeah, it's incredible and like the response, the ceramic response
is to the point where the post office is kind
of mad. I can it's wonderful, just like you're at
the early days when George would go to her post
office box and they'd be like, what's murder?

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
They get mad without the word murder on being like.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
Listen, listen. It's been around for at least since Slowcustus
time truly, So stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Good buy Elvis, do you want to cook it?

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
This has been an exactly right production.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Our managing producers Hannah Kyle Crichton.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
This episode was mixed by Leona Scualachi.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Our researchers are Mareon mcclashan and Ali Elkin.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder,
good Bye,
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Hosts And Creators

Georgia Hardstark

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

Karen Kilgariff

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