May 7, 2026 • 25 mins
On May 8, 2025, Cardinal Robert Prevost became Pope Leo XIV, the first American-born head of the Roman Catholic Church. We speak with Dr. Stephen Okey, theology professor at Saint Leo University near Tampa, about Leo's first year in office, controversies with the U.S. government, future issues of concern for the pontiff and how American Catholics feel about someone leading their church who has a native understanding of U.S. politics and culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Gordon Bird here Beyond the News. May eighth will mark
one year since Robert Prevost, born in the Chicago area,
became Pope Leo the fourteenth in this country. A lot
of attention has been focused in that first year on
the conflict between the pope and the Trump administration, But
what else has also been going on with the first
(00:20):
US born pontiff. Steven Ok is a professor of theology
and religion at Saint Leo University, headquartered not far from
Tampa in Pasco County and with campuses and a lot
of locations. Steven Ok welcome to Beyond the News.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, of course, we've seen a lot of attention on
the clashes between Pope Leo and President Trump, and they've
been pronounced over at least a couple of issues, one
of which has been the war in Iran that has
broken out in recent weeks. Now, popes have certainly criticized
wars before, the dynamic here seems a little bit different,
(00:56):
if you can kind of help us with what's going
on in the context of where the plotive is coming from.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Sure, so.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Generally the Catholic Church has become more and more critical
of warfare in the modern age, as you know, the
weapons and you know, forms of warfare have become you know,
more destructive, more violent, more widespread, et cetera. And that's
a development and reflection that was called the just war tradition.
(01:26):
And so that the fact that Pop Leo is you know,
concerned about the war in Iran and the way it's
being conducted is consistent with you know, his predecessors, at
least as far back as.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Benedict the fifteenth was the pope during World War One.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
The other, I guess piece of it that I think
is particularly telling or interesting, at least in the situation
is Leo is also the first US born pope.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And one of the you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Know, interesting things about that is it means he's someone who,
you know, he grew up in US. He's you know,
familiar with how the United States worked, how its government works,
what a society is like, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
He still has.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Family in the US. He has you know, one brother
who is you know, fairly conservative, one brother who is
fairly liberal.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And so it's it it's.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
The first time we've had a pope who is from
our country but also has I think probably a good
you know native understanding of the issues here. And sometimes
you know, during like for example, the you know called
Francis's papacy, sometimes the critiques of Francis when he would
(02:38):
talk about, you know, issues in the US, where well,
he doesn't really understand the United States. You know, he's
not from the US, he's not a native English speaker.
And that's not a critique that's available regarding Poplio. And
so I think that that has made it maybe a
little more you know, upfront than it than it normally
would be.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
When during this latest confrontation over the Iran War, there
were references in a story which has since been debunked
on both sides, uh, in which supposedly, uh, someone from
the Pentagon communicated the concept to the Pope that he
(03:20):
would face an avignon papacy. Uh could you could you
could you help us put it put into context? Uh?
You know, what was that? What were they talking about?
And uh and this allegedly talking about in this now
debunked story, and and what does that mean? What?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
What?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
What what is that all about?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, so that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And I I'm not going to give firm days because
I'll mess them up, But broadly, speaking.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
When we talk.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
About the avigne On papacy, there's sort of two things
that we're talking about, and they're both around the fourteen
fifteenth centuries, so hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And
the first was, and I forget which pope it was,
but he moved the seat of the Catholic Church from
Rome to a city in France called Avignon. And this
(04:11):
had to do in large part with the relationship that
the pope had to the French king or the emperor
or whoever it was at the time. And uh, and
the the papacy remained there for a few decades, but
then there started to be was called a schism, which
is a split within the church.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
UH.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And we had a period where there were there were
two popes. There was an Auvignon pope and there was
a Roman pope. And then there was a brief period
where there were three popes and it was this big
issue of how does how does the church you know,
knit itself back together and return to unity. And it
ended up, you know, that last phase when there were
three guys, they all lost their position.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There was a new pope been in Rome ever since.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
The the sort of idea or or reference there.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I think there's probably two things.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
One is, historically the relationship between the pope and you know,
kings or especially emperors in Europe was often a contentious
or challenging relationship, and it had to do with, you know,
what is the sort of source of authority for the pope,
(05:24):
what is the source of authority for the emperor?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Right? And so like.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Very famously in the year eight hundred, on Christmas Day, Charlemagne,
you know, the Great Emperor is crowned by the Pope, right,
and that's a conferral of legitimacy in a real way.
And so those tensions remain for centuries in the Catholic Church,
particularly in Europe, and it expressed itself also in things
(05:51):
like who could be selected to be a bishop of
a diocese. You know, nowadays that is something that is
firmly and fully in the the pope's purview, with some
minor exceptions, but it was much more common in the
past that either you know, kings had some role or
veto or something like that. There was even and I'll
(06:14):
move off a history here in a moment, there was
even a long period in which when a conclave was
called to elect a new pope after the death of
the previous pope, that there were European leaders who would
communicate to one of the cardinals from their country that
they didn't want a certain person to become pope, and
(06:36):
they could effectively exercise a veto on someone if they
were not happy with, you know, how the conclave was going. Now,
that's all long in the past. The sort of papal
veto was made an excommunicable offense in nineteen oh three by.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Pious the tenth.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
But you can see like there's this long history of
kind of contention around that, and so that's one thing.
And you know, the way now that world leaders relate
to the pope has generally been to see popes, as
you know, strong moral authorities, where if a pope agreed
(07:16):
with something or signed off on something or supported something,
that would really help. This was really significant for Ronald
Reagan and Margaret Thatcher in the nineteen eighties when John
Paul the second was so in sync with them in
terms of resisting the Soviet Union and the spread of
communism and everything else.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So that's that's one big piece of it, is there's this.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Moral authority and weight that comes with the papacy, which
I mean it makes sense, you know, like you know
the famous quote like how many divisions does the pope have?
The pope doesn't have soldiers, the pope doesn't have you know, tanks,
but the pope has is this sort of you know,
moral authority that comes from a certain neutrient of not
(08:01):
playing favorites among various.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Countries, but of being concerned with these deeper issues. Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
The second thing I think is operative in this you
know now debunked claim like oh, an avignon papacy is
there is I think you know, polarization and tension you know,
within the Catholic Church and in particular in the US
Catholic Church. I think it's often tied to you know,
sort of strong partisan identities and ways of thinking about
(08:28):
how religious beliefs and partisan beliefs you know, intermeshed with
one another. And the idea of like, well we'll set
up some sort of avignon papacy is a way of
maybe trying to suggest that, you know, if in this case,
if more conservative elements you know, are having problems with
(08:49):
the current Roman pontiff, then they can you.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Know pull support or or pull.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
You know, you know, followers from that by by setting
some kind of alternative approach. It's a terrible idea, like
I don't think it would actually work, but I think
it's a way of gesturing at this kind of polarization
that we see in the US Church.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
The other issue of conflict between the President and the
Pope has been over immigration and efforts to crack down
on illegal immigration, including deportations, and we want to talk
about that here in just a moment and the context
of where the Pope is on that and how American
Catholics as a group are responding to these sorts of
(09:34):
issues of conflict, and we'll talk about that a little
bit more in just a moment on Beyond the News.
Here on Beyond the News, we're speaking with Steven Oki,
professor of theology and religion at Saint Leo University just
north of the Tampa, the Tampa Bay area in Florida,
and we're talking about the first year of Pope Leo's
(09:55):
papacy and the of course we've been talking about the
conflict for the Ron War. The other big issue where
there have been conflicts with the Trump administration has been
over the handling of immigration, cracking down on illegal immigration,
deportations and related issues. If you could, professor, help us
(10:16):
put the context of where Pope Francis is coming from
when he responds to these issues in the US and elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Sure, so maybe I'll say three things to help explain this.
So number one, the general Catholic teaching on immigration, and
you see the US Conference of Catholic Bishops articulating this,
I think pretty clearly is Yes. On one hand, you know,
states have the right and responsibility to secure their borders.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And protect their citizens and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But additionally, all human beings have inherent dignity by virtue
of being made in the image and likeness of God.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And this is true true people.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
In prison, This is true of the unborn, and it's
true of immigrants, even those who you know might not
be following the law fully in their you know, attempt
to you know, flee violence, or flee economic privation, or
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Just to sneak a better life elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And these things are held intention But I think that
there tends to be a strong emphasis on we must
care for those who are marginalized, are who are suffering,
who are victims, et cetera, to the extent that we
are able to do so. And so that's I think
the general teaching. I think the US bishops have been
pretty clear about that. The second thing that I think
(11:39):
is relevant in this context, particularly with Poplio, is that
one of the parts of his backgrounds that was it
seems to have been very important for his election, is
that he was a missionary. And so, you know, while
he was in you know, in his priestly formation, you know,
in especially in an actresordination in in the eighties in particular,
(12:03):
he went to the country of Peru as a missionary
from the Augustindian Order, which he's a member, and he
you know, he worked as a teacher, he helped run
a parish and he you know, really spent time with
the people there. And then later, you know, further on
in his career, he was sent to Peru to become
(12:26):
a bishop and he was the bishop of a town
I think it's pronounced sha Clio or Chicleo, uh, and
he you know, like ran the diocese and and you know,
did a lot of the administrative role, but again like
as someone who had been in the country, you know,
decade or two previously and it's now being sent and
his experience as a missionary gave him a lot of
(12:48):
contact with, you know, many of the kinds of people
who are often immigrating to the US. Who are you know,
part of this big you know, political question around migration.
And then the third thing that I think is relevant
in this case is.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
My read at least.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Of the US population is, uh, there's a large block
of people who have concerns about you know, you know,
stability at the border and you know, maybe too much
illegal immigration or whatnot. But you also have a huge
body of people and there's a giant overlap of these
two groups who are you know, concerned too horrified with
(13:32):
the way that immigration action has taken place in the
US during the second Trump administration. And a lot of
people who are in that overlap are Catholics, and so
the you know, the the witness of the US bishops,
who I think generally have been pretty consistent and close
(13:54):
together on you know, serious concern about the way this
immigration crackdown has been carried out, as well as the
sort of the witness of Pope Leo have been a
big part of this. I think in terms of thinking
about the President Trump Pope Leo dust ups, I think
that's much more about Iran. I think one of the
(14:15):
things that Leo is doing is in many cases he
is letting you know, local churches, local dioceses do a
lot more of the work and the speaking out and
the witnessing the Catholic teaching. And so I think it
has more actually been the US bishops who have been
you know, maybe causing ire for President Trump around immigration,
(14:38):
but Pope Leo is a much more visible and recognized
symbol for that.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
As they've been witnessing this, this back and forth American
Catholics who are also American voters, how have they been
processing the conflict or the dust ups as you put it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, it's hard to tell, you know, for me it
this point.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know, the the sort of online discourse you know,
on you know, Twitter or TikTok or wherever else, I
think tend to reflect you know, pre existing scripts for
the Unite for US political discourse, and so you know,
people who are more conservative and more supportive of the
(15:22):
Trump administration are also you know, more critical of Pope
Leo on this or you know, and range from people
who say like, well, I'm not Catholic anymore if this
is the pope too, you know, like the Pope is
maybe not being you know, clear or fair on this topic,
or or the Pope should you know, stay in the
(15:42):
lane of giving moral advice and not political advice. But
at the same time, people who are I think, you know,
more concerned about immigration, or more concerned about peace building,
or or maybe more liberal or more progressive in their
politics tend to be very you know, supportive of and
grateful for the Pope in this regard. But that's that's
like the online piece and it just kind of maps
onto we usually see I think with online discourse.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I think the larger view even like including but more
extensive than what we see online.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It is, by and large, Pope Leo is really well
regarded by US Catholics. And some of that is he's
a US born Catholic himself. We like the fact that
he loves baseball, you know, he has a favorite team,
he's you know, he went to White Talks games, including
a World Series game. We like the fact that he
(16:34):
has you know, opinions about US music and US food
and things like that, and so there's something very much
he feels comfortable and familiar.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
For that reason.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Number two, he's the Pope, and that even for people
who have disagreements with the Pope, like as Catholics, there
were just in general remainings this very high regard and
respect for the Pope as pope. And so I think
that the amid these sort of dust ups, I think
(17:06):
for people who you know, are you know, who do
not like President Trump or are indifferent towards President Trump,
but who like there's a lot of them, will still
have a positive view of Leo. I think for a
lot of people who support President Trump but are also Catholic,
this just feels like a very awkward, intense and maybe
unnecessary kind of thing, that this is not a fight
(17:30):
to pick, and that it would be better to try
to do, you know, efforts at persuasion, if you want
to try to get Leo more on the side of
Trump policies.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I don't know that that would happen, but I think
that there's a different rhetorical strategy.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
But I really like, I don't get the sense that
you know, this kind of you know, beefing with the
Pope has been you know, really politically productive for the President,
and I think it's mostly been for a lot of Catholics.
Either you know, not worth paying attention to, or it
just seems really stupid.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Of course, with all the attention paid to the dust
ups between the Pope and the president, there have been
a lot of other things going on in Leo's first year.
So give us kind of give us the headlines, the highlights,
what's been going on in the first year of Leo's papacy.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Sure, So the way I would probably best answer this
is there's this sort of idea that whatever there's a
new pope, a new cope was elected, it's a little
bit of a referendum on the previous pope, and so
what did we like about.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
The previous pope did, what do we want to change?
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And so when the cardinals are voting, you know, that
seems to be a factor. And they have these general congregations,
these meetings before the conclave where they discussed the issues
of the church, and I think, you know, with the
when Pope Francis died, you know, last year, you know,
the big things that people were attending to. One was
this idea of sinidality and Pope Friends his understanding of
(19:01):
like how the church should be, how it should you.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Know, fulfill his mission in the world.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
And I think another you know, focus on Francis was
sort of stylistic, and so the way that he carried
himself and the way that he spoke, and the kind
of symbolic acts that he would do, and the you know,
the way he likes, you know, engaged with people, and
so in looking at you know, the papacy of Leo
(19:26):
over the last year, I think the the report on
sinidelity so far is that Leo seems very committed to
the sonodyl path that Francis was inaugurating. But I think
also that he's you know, looking at ways of implementing
it that maybe are not are a little different from
(19:48):
what Francis did. And so Leo has already had you know,
one major meeting with his cardinals. He's expressed that he
will do that more often, which is something that Francis
did occasionally, but has had a sort of smaller subgroup
of cardinals that he would consult with. So Leo's doing
that that's a sort of more noble move. He's expressed
(20:09):
that like the bishops that he's selected so far seemed
to be leaders who are committed to, you know, implementing
sitidelity in their own dioceses who have been supportive of
it in that way. And so I think the you know,
looking forward, you know, the bishops that Leo's selects will
be kind of a further, you know, indication of how
(20:31):
he is on that. When it comes to style, Leo
definitely has a different you know, style or different personality
from Francis.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
He's much more reserved, he's.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Less often will speak off the cuff than Francis did,
and that was often one of the sources of kind
of like news and controversy was you know, Francis said
something on the airplane, and you know that drove headlines
for a few days. And similarly, you know, one of
the things that was notable in francis papacy were the
you know, various deviations or differences that he had from
(21:04):
more traditional ways of being pope. And so he didn't
wear all of the traditional guard where it was called
the mozetta, which is this kind of red tape thing.
He didn't stay in the papal apartments, but instead stayed
in what is essentially like a fairly simple hotel that
was built for cardinals who.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Come to conclaves.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And so those sorts of things Leo seems much more
on the sort of prior, more traditional path of prior popes,
So that's the.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thing people are sort of monitoring.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
But again this seems to be more a personality feature
than a substantive feature. The other I guess couple of
things I would note in looking at the last year,
things that I've been tracking and been interested about with
with Toglio. One is his really strong commitment to promoting peace.
(21:59):
And so we saw this, you know, literally from the
first words after he was elected, when he came out
on the balcony, and it has been a consistent and
constant refrain.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
In his in his homilies, in.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
His messages, in you know, any public speaking has been
doing a real concern about peace. And that's been true
about you know, the Russia Ukraine War, It's been true
about the you know, Israel and Gaza, and again most
recently with the US Israel in Iran. And so that
advocacy for peace has been a real strong through line
in his papacy so far. The second thing which I
(22:35):
am really interested in is Pope Leo's attention to the
question of artificial intelligence. And this is something that I
think people don't realize the Vatican has actually been quite
engaged with artificial intelligence companies over the last decade. They've hosted,
you know, a lot of meetings, they've brought in a
lot of experts they helped put together. It was called
(22:58):
the Rome Call for aif that they've been very, very engaged.
And when Leo was elected and he took the name Leo,
he was asked why. Understandably, his reasoning for this was
the previous Pope Leo, Leo the thirteenth, who was quote
at the end of the nineteenth century, wrote this very
famous and very influential encyclical or letter called.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
A Rareum novarum.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And this text Rarem Novarum was an incredible intervention in
how Catholic teaching applies in society, and in that case,
in particular, in light of the effects of the Industrial
Revolution and how you know, the growth of manufacturing and
(23:45):
machines and labor and factories and the urbanization that came
with it, what effect that was having on people and
on families and on communities. And Leo the thirteenth was
just really concerned about the dignity of all of those people,
and especially the dignity of workers, and how they were
(24:06):
treated by their employers. And so Leo the fourteenth referenced
this and referenced Rerem novarum and reference this response to
the Industrial Revolution, and he said, you know, within the
first week it is let he says, you know, today
we are potentially living through a new industrial revolution because
of artificial intelligence, and this is something that we really
(24:27):
need to pay attention to. And so there's widespread expectation
that Leo the fourteenth will release an encyclical or again
a letter, and that that's incyclical and in the next
you know, couple of months, you know, sometime this year,
and that this incyclical will address artificial intelligence in light
(24:48):
of the same principles of Catholic social teaching that his predecessor,
Leo the thirteenth was addressing the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
A lot of ground to cover, and we appreciate your
helping us with it, Steven Ok, professor and take that again,
three two one. A lot of ground to cover and
we appreciate your helping us cover it, Steven Ok, a
professor of theology and Religion at Saint Leo. A lot
of ground to cover there, and we appreciate your help
in covering it. Steven ok A, Professor of theology and
Religion at Saint Leo University. Thank you for joining us
(25:18):
on beyond the news.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for having me
Gordon Bird here Beyond the News. May eighth will mark
one year since Robert Prevost, born in the Chicago area,
became Pope Leo the fourteenth in this country. A lot
of attention has been focused in that first year on
the conflict between the pope and the Trump administration, But
what else has also been going on with the first
(00:20):
US born pontiff. Steven Ok is a professor of theology
and religion at Saint Leo University, headquartered not far from
Tampa in Pasco County and with campuses and a lot
of locations. Steven Ok welcome to Beyond the News.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, of course, we've seen a lot of attention on
the clashes between Pope Leo and President Trump, and they've
been pronounced over at least a couple of issues, one
of which has been the war in Iran that has
broken out in recent weeks. Now, popes have certainly criticized
wars before, the dynamic here seems a little bit different,
(00:56):
if you can kind of help us with what's going
on in the context of where the plotive is coming from.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Sure, so.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Generally the Catholic Church has become more and more critical
of warfare in the modern age, as you know, the
weapons and you know, forms of warfare have become you know,
more destructive, more violent, more widespread, et cetera. And that's
a development and reflection that was called the just war tradition.
(01:26):
And so that the fact that Pop Leo is you know,
concerned about the war in Iran and the way it's
being conducted is consistent with you know, his predecessors, at
least as far back as.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Benedict the fifteenth was the pope during World War One.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
The other, I guess piece of it that I think
is particularly telling or interesting, at least in the situation
is Leo is also the first US born pope.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And one of the you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Know, interesting things about that is it means he's someone who,
you know, he grew up in US. He's you know,
familiar with how the United States worked, how its government works,
what a society is like, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
He still has.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Family in the US. He has you know, one brother
who is you know, fairly conservative, one brother who is
fairly liberal.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And so it's it it's.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
The first time we've had a pope who is from
our country but also has I think probably a good
you know native understanding of the issues here. And sometimes
you know, during like for example, the you know called
Francis's papacy, sometimes the critiques of Francis when he would
(02:38):
talk about, you know, issues in the US, where well,
he doesn't really understand the United States. You know, he's
not from the US, he's not a native English speaker.
And that's not a critique that's available regarding Poplio. And
so I think that that has made it maybe a
little more you know, upfront than it than it normally
would be.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
When during this latest confrontation over the Iran War, there
were references in a story which has since been debunked
on both sides, uh, in which supposedly, uh, someone from
the Pentagon communicated the concept to the Pope that he
(03:20):
would face an avignon papacy. Uh could you could you
could you help us put it put into context? Uh?
You know, what was that? What were they talking about?
And uh and this allegedly talking about in this now
debunked story, and and what does that mean? What?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
What?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
What what is that all about?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, so that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
And I I'm not going to give firm days because
I'll mess them up, But broadly, speaking.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
When we talk.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
About the avigne On papacy, there's sort of two things
that we're talking about, and they're both around the fourteen
fifteenth centuries, so hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And
the first was, and I forget which pope it was,
but he moved the seat of the Catholic Church from
Rome to a city in France called Avignon. And this
(04:11):
had to do in large part with the relationship that
the pope had to the French king or the emperor
or whoever it was at the time. And uh, and
the the papacy remained there for a few decades, but
then there started to be was called a schism, which
is a split within the church.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
UH.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And we had a period where there were there were
two popes. There was an Auvignon pope and there was
a Roman pope. And then there was a brief period
where there were three popes and it was this big
issue of how does how does the church you know,
knit itself back together and return to unity. And it
ended up, you know, that last phase when there were
three guys, they all lost their position.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
There was a new pope been in Rome ever since.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
The the sort of idea or or reference there.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I think there's probably two things.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
One is, historically the relationship between the pope and you know,
kings or especially emperors in Europe was often a contentious
or challenging relationship, and it had to do with, you know,
what is the sort of source of authority for the pope,
(05:24):
what is the source of authority for the emperor?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Right? And so like.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Very famously in the year eight hundred, on Christmas Day, Charlemagne,
you know, the Great Emperor is crowned by the Pope, right,
and that's a conferral of legitimacy in a real way.
And so those tensions remain for centuries in the Catholic Church,
particularly in Europe, and it expressed itself also in things
(05:51):
like who could be selected to be a bishop of
a diocese. You know, nowadays that is something that is
firmly and fully in the the pope's purview, with some
minor exceptions, but it was much more common in the
past that either you know, kings had some role or
veto or something like that. There was even and I'll
(06:14):
move off a history here in a moment, there was
even a long period in which when a conclave was
called to elect a new pope after the death of
the previous pope, that there were European leaders who would
communicate to one of the cardinals from their country that
they didn't want a certain person to become pope, and
(06:36):
they could effectively exercise a veto on someone if they
were not happy with, you know, how the conclave was going. Now,
that's all long in the past. The sort of papal
veto was made an excommunicable offense in nineteen oh three by.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Pious the tenth.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
But you can see like there's this long history of
kind of contention around that, and so that's one thing.
And you know, the way now that world leaders relate
to the pope has generally been to see popes, as
you know, strong moral authorities, where if a pope agreed
(07:16):
with something or signed off on something or supported something,
that would really help. This was really significant for Ronald
Reagan and Margaret Thatcher in the nineteen eighties when John
Paul the second was so in sync with them in
terms of resisting the Soviet Union and the spread of
communism and everything else.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So that's that's one big piece of it, is there's this.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Moral authority and weight that comes with the papacy, which
I mean it makes sense, you know, like you know
the famous quote like how many divisions does the pope have?
The pope doesn't have soldiers, the pope doesn't have you know, tanks,
but the pope has is this sort of you know,
moral authority that comes from a certain neutrient of not
(08:01):
playing favorites among various.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Countries, but of being concerned with these deeper issues. Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
The second thing I think is operative in this you
know now debunked claim like oh, an avignon papacy is
there is I think you know, polarization and tension you know,
within the Catholic Church and in particular in the US
Catholic Church. I think it's often tied to you know,
sort of strong partisan identities and ways of thinking about
(08:28):
how religious beliefs and partisan beliefs you know, intermeshed with
one another. And the idea of like, well we'll set
up some sort of avignon papacy is a way of
maybe trying to suggest that, you know, if in this case,
if more conservative elements you know, are having problems with
(08:49):
the current Roman pontiff, then they can you.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Know pull support or or pull.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
You know, you know, followers from that by by setting
some kind of alternative approach. It's a terrible idea, like
I don't think it would actually work, but I think
it's a way of gesturing at this kind of polarization
that we see in the US Church.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
The other issue of conflict between the President and the
Pope has been over immigration and efforts to crack down
on illegal immigration, including deportations, and we want to talk
about that here in just a moment and the context
of where the Pope is on that and how American
Catholics as a group are responding to these sorts of
(09:34):
issues of conflict, and we'll talk about that a little
bit more in just a moment on Beyond the News.
Here on Beyond the News, we're speaking with Steven Oki,
professor of theology and religion at Saint Leo University just
north of the Tampa, the Tampa Bay area in Florida,
and we're talking about the first year of Pope Leo's
(09:55):
papacy and the of course we've been talking about the
conflict for the Ron War. The other big issue where
there have been conflicts with the Trump administration has been
over the handling of immigration, cracking down on illegal immigration,
deportations and related issues. If you could, professor, help us
(10:16):
put the context of where Pope Francis is coming from
when he responds to these issues in the US and elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Sure, so maybe I'll say three things to help explain this.
So number one, the general Catholic teaching on immigration, and
you see the US Conference of Catholic Bishops articulating this,
I think pretty clearly is Yes. On one hand, you know,
states have the right and responsibility to secure their borders.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And protect their citizens and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But additionally, all human beings have inherent dignity by virtue
of being made in the image and likeness of God.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And this is true true people.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
In prison, This is true of the unborn, and it's
true of immigrants, even those who you know might not
be following the law fully in their you know, attempt
to you know, flee violence, or flee economic privation, or
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Just to sneak a better life elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
And these things are held intention But I think that
there tends to be a strong emphasis on we must
care for those who are marginalized, are who are suffering,
who are victims, et cetera, to the extent that we
are able to do so. And so that's I think
the general teaching. I think the US bishops have been
pretty clear about that. The second thing that I think
(11:39):
is relevant in this context, particularly with Poplio, is that
one of the parts of his backgrounds that was it
seems to have been very important for his election, is
that he was a missionary. And so, you know, while
he was in you know, in his priestly formation, you know,
in especially in an actresordination in in the eighties in particular,
(12:03):
he went to the country of Peru as a missionary
from the Augustindian Order, which he's a member, and he
you know, he worked as a teacher, he helped run
a parish and he you know, really spent time with
the people there. And then later, you know, further on
in his career, he was sent to Peru to become
(12:26):
a bishop and he was the bishop of a town
I think it's pronounced sha Clio or Chicleo, uh, and
he you know, like ran the diocese and and you know,
did a lot of the administrative role, but again like
as someone who had been in the country, you know,
decade or two previously and it's now being sent and
his experience as a missionary gave him a lot of
(12:48):
contact with, you know, many of the kinds of people
who are often immigrating to the US. Who are you know,
part of this big you know, political question around migration.
And then the third thing that I think is relevant
in this case is.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
My read at least.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Of the US population is, uh, there's a large block
of people who have concerns about you know, you know,
stability at the border and you know, maybe too much
illegal immigration or whatnot. But you also have a huge
body of people and there's a giant overlap of these
two groups who are you know, concerned too horrified with
(13:32):
the way that immigration action has taken place in the
US during the second Trump administration. And a lot of
people who are in that overlap are Catholics, and so
the you know, the the witness of the US bishops,
who I think generally have been pretty consistent and close
(13:54):
together on you know, serious concern about the way this
immigration crackdown has been carried out, as well as the
sort of the witness of Pope Leo have been a
big part of this. I think in terms of thinking
about the President Trump Pope Leo dust ups, I think
that's much more about Iran. I think one of the
(14:15):
things that Leo is doing is in many cases he
is letting you know, local churches, local dioceses do a
lot more of the work and the speaking out and
the witnessing the Catholic teaching. And so I think it
has more actually been the US bishops who have been
you know, maybe causing ire for President Trump around immigration,
(14:38):
but Pope Leo is a much more visible and recognized
symbol for that.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
As they've been witnessing this, this back and forth American
Catholics who are also American voters, how have they been
processing the conflict or the dust ups as you put it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, it's hard to tell, you know, for me it
this point.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know, the the sort of online discourse you know,
on you know, Twitter or TikTok or wherever else, I
think tend to reflect you know, pre existing scripts for
the Unite for US political discourse, and so you know,
people who are more conservative and more supportive of the
(15:22):
Trump administration are also you know, more critical of Pope
Leo on this or you know, and range from people
who say like, well, I'm not Catholic anymore if this
is the pope too, you know, like the Pope is
maybe not being you know, clear or fair on this topic,
or or the Pope should you know, stay in the
(15:42):
lane of giving moral advice and not political advice. But
at the same time, people who are I think, you know,
more concerned about immigration, or more concerned about peace building,
or or maybe more liberal or more progressive in their
politics tend to be very you know, supportive of and
grateful for the Pope in this regard. But that's that's
like the online piece and it just kind of maps
onto we usually see I think with online discourse.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I think the larger view even like including but more
extensive than what we see online.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It is, by and large, Pope Leo is really well
regarded by US Catholics. And some of that is he's
a US born Catholic himself. We like the fact that
he loves baseball, you know, he has a favorite team,
he's you know, he went to White Talks games, including
a World Series game. We like the fact that he
(16:34):
has you know, opinions about US music and US food
and things like that, and so there's something very much
he feels comfortable and familiar.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
For that reason.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Number two, he's the Pope, and that even for people
who have disagreements with the Pope, like as Catholics, there
were just in general remainings this very high regard and
respect for the Pope as pope. And so I think
that the amid these sort of dust ups, I think
(17:06):
for people who you know, are you know, who do
not like President Trump or are indifferent towards President Trump,
but who like there's a lot of them, will still
have a positive view of Leo. I think for a
lot of people who support President Trump but are also Catholic,
this just feels like a very awkward, intense and maybe
unnecessary kind of thing, that this is not a fight
(17:30):
to pick, and that it would be better to try
to do, you know, efforts at persuasion, if you want
to try to get Leo more on the side of
Trump policies.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I don't know that that would happen, but I think
that there's a different rhetorical strategy.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
But I really like, I don't get the sense that
you know, this kind of you know, beefing with the
Pope has been you know, really politically productive for the President,
and I think it's mostly been for a lot of Catholics.
Either you know, not worth paying attention to, or it
just seems really stupid.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Of course, with all the attention paid to the dust
ups between the Pope and the president, there have been
a lot of other things going on in Leo's first year.
So give us kind of give us the headlines, the highlights,
what's been going on in the first year of Leo's papacy.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Sure, So the way I would probably best answer this
is there's this sort of idea that whatever there's a
new pope, a new cope was elected, it's a little
bit of a referendum on the previous pope, and so
what did we like about.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
The previous pope did, what do we want to change?
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
And so when the cardinals are voting, you know, that
seems to be a factor. And they have these general congregations,
these meetings before the conclave where they discussed the issues
of the church, and I think, you know, with the
when Pope Francis died, you know, last year, you know,
the big things that people were attending to. One was
this idea of sinidality and Pope Friends his understanding of
(19:01):
like how the church should be, how it should you.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Know, fulfill his mission in the world.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
And I think another you know, focus on Francis was
sort of stylistic, and so the way that he carried
himself and the way that he spoke, and the kind
of symbolic acts that he would do, and the you know,
the way he likes, you know, engaged with people, and
so in looking at you know, the papacy of Leo
(19:26):
over the last year, I think the the report on
sinidelity so far is that Leo seems very committed to
the sonodyl path that Francis was inaugurating. But I think
also that he's you know, looking at ways of implementing
it that maybe are not are a little different from
(19:48):
what Francis did. And so Leo has already had you know,
one major meeting with his cardinals. He's expressed that he
will do that more often, which is something that Francis
did occasionally, but has had a sort of smaller subgroup
of cardinals that he would consult with. So Leo's doing
that that's a sort of more noble move. He's expressed
(20:09):
that like the bishops that he's selected so far seemed
to be leaders who are committed to, you know, implementing
sitidelity in their own dioceses who have been supportive of
it in that way. And so I think the you know,
looking forward, you know, the bishops that Leo's selects will
be kind of a further, you know, indication of how
(20:31):
he is on that. When it comes to style, Leo
definitely has a different you know, style or different personality
from Francis.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
He's much more reserved, he's.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Less often will speak off the cuff than Francis did,
and that was often one of the sources of kind
of like news and controversy was you know, Francis said
something on the airplane, and you know that drove headlines
for a few days. And similarly, you know, one of
the things that was notable in francis papacy were the
you know, various deviations or differences that he had from
(21:04):
more traditional ways of being pope. And so he didn't
wear all of the traditional guard where it was called
the mozetta, which is this kind of red tape thing.
He didn't stay in the papal apartments, but instead stayed
in what is essentially like a fairly simple hotel that
was built for cardinals who.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Come to conclaves.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And so those sorts of things Leo seems much more
on the sort of prior, more traditional path of prior popes,
So that's the.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thing people are sort of monitoring.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
But again this seems to be more a personality feature
than a substantive feature. The other I guess couple of
things I would note in looking at the last year,
things that I've been tracking and been interested about with
with Toglio. One is his really strong commitment to promoting peace.
(21:59):
And so we saw this, you know, literally from the
first words after he was elected, when he came out
on the balcony, and it has been a consistent and
constant refrain.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
In his in his homilies, in.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
His messages, in you know, any public speaking has been
doing a real concern about peace. And that's been true
about you know, the Russia Ukraine War, It's been true
about the you know, Israel and Gaza, and again most
recently with the US Israel in Iran. And so that
advocacy for peace has been a real strong through line
in his papacy so far. The second thing which I
(22:35):
am really interested in is Pope Leo's attention to the
question of artificial intelligence. And this is something that I
think people don't realize the Vatican has actually been quite
engaged with artificial intelligence companies over the last decade. They've hosted,
you know, a lot of meetings, they've brought in a
lot of experts they helped put together. It was called
(22:58):
the Rome Call for aif that they've been very, very engaged.
And when Leo was elected and he took the name Leo,
he was asked why. Understandably, his reasoning for this was
the previous Pope Leo, Leo the thirteenth, who was quote
at the end of the nineteenth century, wrote this very
famous and very influential encyclical or letter called.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
A Rareum novarum.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And this text Rarem Novarum was an incredible intervention in
how Catholic teaching applies in society, and in that case,
in particular, in light of the effects of the Industrial
Revolution and how you know, the growth of manufacturing and
(23:45):
machines and labor and factories and the urbanization that came
with it, what effect that was having on people and
on families and on communities. And Leo the thirteenth was
just really concerned about the dignity of all of those people,
and especially the dignity of workers, and how they were
(24:06):
treated by their employers. And so Leo the fourteenth referenced
this and referenced Rerem novarum and reference this response to
the Industrial Revolution, and he said, you know, within the
first week it is let he says, you know, today
we are potentially living through a new industrial revolution because
of artificial intelligence, and this is something that we really
(24:27):
need to pay attention to. And so there's widespread expectation
that Leo the fourteenth will release an encyclical or again
a letter, and that that's incyclical and in the next
you know, couple of months, you know, sometime this year,
and that this incyclical will address artificial intelligence in light
(24:48):
of the same principles of Catholic social teaching that his predecessor,
Leo the thirteenth was addressing the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
A lot of ground to cover, and we appreciate your
helping us with it, Steven Ok, professor and take that again,
three two one. A lot of ground to cover and
we appreciate your helping us cover it, Steven Ok, a
professor of theology and Religion at Saint Leo. A lot
of ground to cover there, and we appreciate your help
in covering it. Steven ok A, Professor of theology and
Religion at Saint Leo University. Thank you for joining us
(25:18):
on beyond the news.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for having me
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