May 13, 2026 • 8 mins
Tom Clavin's latest work is more than a deep dive into Custer's Last Stand, it delves into the last stand of Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and the plains Indians.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, thirty five minutes past the hour. He is
one of our favorite authors. I don't know, maybe we've
had Tom on six or eight times over the years,
talking about six or eight different books. Tom claven and
the book is Vengeance The Last Stands of Custer, Crazy
Horse and Sitting Bull. Tom, welcome back to the show.
How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm fine, Thank you for having me back.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You know inside your subtitle is I think an interesting word,
and it is the plural last stands because we think
of Custer's last stand. But you've expanded this story. Tell
us why.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
That was a big reading for writing the book, because
it's a little big one is also called, of course
Custer's Last Stand, and so many things I've written about
it having so Custer centric. But it was the last
stand for Crazy Horse in the sense that the victory
that a little big one, meant that the US Army
was going to come after him with a vengeance. Same
thing for Sitting Bowl. It was the beginning of the
(01:04):
end of their not it's just there their careers, but
they are their lives really because a year later that
the Crazy Crazy Use was killed and eventually Sitting Book,
Sitting Bowl was murdered, so it was the last stance
for the Plains Indians too.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
In addition to Custer, What was it that drew you
to this story? Because this story has been written of
so many times in so many different ways. Why did
you take a swing at this?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I think one reason why is I asked myself, why
haven't I written about the Little Big One battle before?
When you think about it, there's numerous books about Gettysburg,
There's numerous books about the Alamo, There's numerous books about
a Little Big One. But I wanted to put my
stamp on it. What do I think about this? These characters?
What are the people? Are there's the information just that
(01:52):
overlooked or not revealed before? Are there interesting angles to explore?
Are their characters other than the main ones Custer and
crazy horses and sitting bowl that are interesting characters to
write about? So I started asking all these questions and
I thought, Okay, the one hundred and fifty anniversary is
coming up in June twenty twenty six, Maybe this is
the appropriate time to write a book.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Where do you uncover information that is maybe not so
readily available for a story that's this old.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, that's a good question, because in a way
it's kind of mysterious to me too. I start, I
start unraveling like a big ball string. I started researching,
and keep pulling the string and pulling the string, and
you know, going from different institutions of research to another.
There's a lot of material now on available online that
wasn't the case ten years ago or fifteen years ago.
(02:43):
There's a lot of all histories that are available now
that weren't available before. So it's kind of like, I'm
not aware of what I'm doing when I'm doing and
I know that sounds kind of weird, but I'm researching.
I'm not I'm not constantly aware of what I'm doing.
I'm just following my nose where it leaves me.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Where do you find the information about the Indian side
of this? You know, clearly you've got the story of
Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Are is there history as
well chronicled as the history of Custer?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Not quite, because the history of Custer and that's that
point of view and that side of things all a
lot of it's written down, and was written down at
the time, and written down soon afterwards, and writ written
ever since. So much of the Indian point of view
is oral history. And thankfully, in the years after a
little big war and there were you know, anthropologists, researches,
other people that track down some of the Indian participants
(03:40):
in the battle and recorded their stories. So there are
all histories that exist, not from Crazy Horse himself because
he that's the way, like I said a year later,
but sitting bowl for example, he would be interviewed by
newspaper journalists and you could find these newspaper interviews and
in the decades after he was some of the scouts
that were uh that wrote for Custer who survived, gave
(04:04):
all history. So they were that material out there.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Thank goodness, Tom, what what one thing stands out in
your mind that you personally learned about these three main
characters in doing your research.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
You know, one of the most surprising things to me
is that you know it's Custom's last stand. We know
that George Armstrong Custer died at a little big hore
in battle, but it was such a powerful impact on
the Custer family because he was killed, his brother Tom
was killed, his brother Boston was killed, his nephew Oudie
Reed was killed, his brother in law Jimmy Calhoune was killed.
It was a devastating loss for the entire Custer family.
(04:39):
You can imagine what it was like for the Custer
parents back in Michigan. I think they were when they
were told they lost three sons and grandson and a
son in law. So it was that was that was
kind of surprising to me. Also surprising to me was
that they were women warriors who were part of the
Sioux and shy And coalition, and I tell some of
their stories in the book too, that that how how
a very male centric society they had to you know,
(05:02):
everybody on deck when the cavalry attacked, including women warriors.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
When the story first broke across the country, I would
imagine the reaction was pretty strong and very anti American Indian.
But over the years it has evolved and changed. Were
you able to as you looked in research through this,
could you see that? I mean, is it evident that
(05:30):
the feelings that people have about this event have evolved
and changed over time?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well? I think they also had to, because, as you
mentioned at the beginning of your question, the impact on
American society was very powerful. Eighteen seventy six was a
centennial year and in the midst of all the celebrations
leading up to July fourth, of America's history and America's
greatness and everything else that was America. And then to
(05:56):
get this news coming from Montana that the most famous
cavalry officers of the United States had had been not
been defeated, but killed along with most of his men,
was a very profound effect on American society. So and yes,
as you pointed out, very anti Indian initially. So the
reaction was so powerful and so extreme that inevitably the
(06:20):
attitude had to change over the decades.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Since why does this story endure? Why one hundred and
fifty years later is America so fascinated with and because
you know, you've expanded this story beyond Custer. Why the
enduring intrigue?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I think one reason is because when you think about
the eighteen hundreds of American battles on American soil, you
think of, you know, the Alamo, Gettysburg, a little Bighorn.
So there's certain signature battles I guess you could call
them that we keep coming back to over and over again.
And I think also because of Custer was a huge celebrity,
(06:59):
I think we sort of forget that he was. He
was a major headline maker throughout his career. Civil War,
hero of the fighting, colonel of the planes, and so
because of what happened to him, I think the story
resonates over and over and over again. We keep coming
back to it. Tom.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
When you finish a book like this and you type
the final page, do you know that you've typed the
final page?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Well? The process is that yet? I know what I've
typed the final page, and I sort of have to
give the manuscript up to my editor, and then there's
going to be revisions, and there's going to be corrections,
and there's going to be proof reading. There's a whole
process that's involved in it. It's almost like you never
really know for sure when the final final act is
done until somebody tells you, Okay, we're done, We're going
to go. It's going to the printing plant.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
What tells you inside that you have satisfied your own
standard for telling the story?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh? I never satisfied my on standards telling a story.
Sometimes I feel like I come close but never reach it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
How you feel about this book.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think it's a very exciting book. I think it's
as accurate as I could be. As well researched, but
there's a lot of intriguing characters, and I think there's
a real taste turner. So I've been told that the
book is well researched but reads like a novel that's
actually a high compliment.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, and that speaks to the characters that are involved
in that story. As I as I read through much
of it, I was intrigued by those other names that
we don't know from history, that are part of the
history that make up this story.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Tom. Thank you, yes, thank you very much. I appreciate
your time.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Tom Claven with us this morning. And the book is Vengeance,
the Last Stands of Custer, Crazy Horse, and Sitting Bowl.
And like you said, the characters, the names that you
have never heard, the things that you're going to learn
are are remarkable. I think you'll enjoy the book. One
of our great friends here on the program, author Tom
Claven on The Morning Show with Preston Scott
All right, thirty five minutes past the hour. He is
one of our favorite authors. I don't know, maybe we've
had Tom on six or eight times over the years,
talking about six or eight different books. Tom claven and
the book is Vengeance The Last Stands of Custer, Crazy
Horse and Sitting Bull. Tom, welcome back to the show.
How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm fine, Thank you for having me back.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You know inside your subtitle is I think an interesting word,
and it is the plural last stands because we think
of Custer's last stand. But you've expanded this story. Tell
us why.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
That was a big reading for writing the book, because
it's a little big one is also called, of course
Custer's Last Stand, and so many things I've written about
it having so Custer centric. But it was the last
stand for Crazy Horse in the sense that the victory
that a little big one, meant that the US Army
was going to come after him with a vengeance. Same
thing for Sitting Bowl. It was the beginning of the
(01:04):
end of their not it's just there their careers, but
they are their lives really because a year later that
the Crazy Crazy Use was killed and eventually Sitting Book,
Sitting Bowl was murdered, so it was the last stance
for the Plains Indians too.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
In addition to Custer, What was it that drew you
to this story? Because this story has been written of
so many times in so many different ways. Why did
you take a swing at this?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I think one reason why is I asked myself, why
haven't I written about the Little Big One battle before?
When you think about it, there's numerous books about Gettysburg,
There's numerous books about the Alamo, There's numerous books about
a Little Big One. But I wanted to put my
stamp on it. What do I think about this? These characters?
What are the people? Are there's the information just that
(01:52):
overlooked or not revealed before? Are there interesting angles to explore?
Are their characters other than the main ones Custer and
crazy horses and sitting bowl that are interesting characters to
write about? So I started asking all these questions and
I thought, Okay, the one hundred and fifty anniversary is
coming up in June twenty twenty six, Maybe this is
the appropriate time to write a book.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Where do you uncover information that is maybe not so
readily available for a story that's this old.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, that's a good question, because in a way
it's kind of mysterious to me too. I start, I
start unraveling like a big ball string. I started researching,
and keep pulling the string and pulling the string, and
you know, going from different institutions of research to another.
There's a lot of material now on available online that
wasn't the case ten years ago or fifteen years ago.
(02:43):
There's a lot of all histories that are available now
that weren't available before. So it's kind of like, I'm
not aware of what I'm doing when I'm doing and
I know that sounds kind of weird, but I'm researching.
I'm not I'm not constantly aware of what I'm doing.
I'm just following my nose where it leaves me.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Where do you find the information about the Indian side
of this? You know, clearly you've got the story of
Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Are is there history as
well chronicled as the history of Custer?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Not quite, because the history of Custer and that's that
point of view and that side of things all a
lot of it's written down, and was written down at
the time, and written down soon afterwards, and writ written
ever since. So much of the Indian point of view
is oral history. And thankfully, in the years after a
little big war and there were you know, anthropologists, researches,
other people that track down some of the Indian participants
(03:40):
in the battle and recorded their stories. So there are
all histories that exist, not from Crazy Horse himself because
he that's the way, like I said a year later,
but sitting bowl for example, he would be interviewed by
newspaper journalists and you could find these newspaper interviews and
in the decades after he was some of the scouts
that were uh that wrote for Custer who survived, gave
(04:04):
all history. So they were that material out there.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Thank goodness, Tom, what what one thing stands out in
your mind that you personally learned about these three main
characters in doing your research.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
You know, one of the most surprising things to me
is that you know it's Custom's last stand. We know
that George Armstrong Custer died at a little big hore
in battle, but it was such a powerful impact on
the Custer family because he was killed, his brother Tom
was killed, his brother Boston was killed, his nephew Oudie
Reed was killed, his brother in law Jimmy Calhoune was killed.
It was a devastating loss for the entire Custer family.
(04:39):
You can imagine what it was like for the Custer
parents back in Michigan. I think they were when they
were told they lost three sons and grandson and a
son in law. So it was that was that was
kind of surprising to me. Also surprising to me was
that they were women warriors who were part of the
Sioux and shy And coalition, and I tell some of
their stories in the book too, that that how how
a very male centric society they had to you know,
(05:02):
everybody on deck when the cavalry attacked, including women warriors.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
When the story first broke across the country, I would
imagine the reaction was pretty strong and very anti American Indian.
But over the years it has evolved and changed. Were
you able to as you looked in research through this,
could you see that? I mean, is it evident that
(05:30):
the feelings that people have about this event have evolved
and changed over time?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Well? I think they also had to, because, as you
mentioned at the beginning of your question, the impact on
American society was very powerful. Eighteen seventy six was a
centennial year and in the midst of all the celebrations
leading up to July fourth, of America's history and America's
greatness and everything else that was America. And then to
(05:56):
get this news coming from Montana that the most famous
cavalry officers of the United States had had been not
been defeated, but killed along with most of his men,
was a very profound effect on American society. So and yes,
as you pointed out, very anti Indian initially. So the
reaction was so powerful and so extreme that inevitably the
(06:20):
attitude had to change over the decades.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Since why does this story endure? Why one hundred and
fifty years later is America so fascinated with and because
you know, you've expanded this story beyond Custer. Why the
enduring intrigue?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I think one reason is because when you think about
the eighteen hundreds of American battles on American soil, you
think of, you know, the Alamo, Gettysburg, a little Bighorn.
So there's certain signature battles I guess you could call
them that we keep coming back to over and over again.
And I think also because of Custer was a huge celebrity,
(06:59):
I think we sort of forget that he was. He
was a major headline maker throughout his career. Civil War,
hero of the fighting, colonel of the planes, and so
because of what happened to him, I think the story
resonates over and over and over again. We keep coming
back to it. Tom.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
When you finish a book like this and you type
the final page, do you know that you've typed the
final page?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Well? The process is that yet? I know what I've
typed the final page, and I sort of have to
give the manuscript up to my editor, and then there's
going to be revisions, and there's going to be corrections,
and there's going to be proof reading. There's a whole
process that's involved in it. It's almost like you never
really know for sure when the final final act is
done until somebody tells you, Okay, we're done, We're going
to go. It's going to the printing plant.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
What tells you inside that you have satisfied your own
standard for telling the story?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh? I never satisfied my on standards telling a story.
Sometimes I feel like I come close but never reach it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
How you feel about this book.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think it's a very exciting book. I think it's
as accurate as I could be. As well researched, but
there's a lot of intriguing characters, and I think there's
a real taste turner. So I've been told that the
book is well researched but reads like a novel that's
actually a high compliment.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, and that speaks to the characters that are involved
in that story. As I as I read through much
of it, I was intrigued by those other names that
we don't know from history, that are part of the
history that make up this story.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Tom. Thank you, yes, thank you very much. I appreciate
your time.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Tom Claven with us this morning. And the book is Vengeance,
the Last Stands of Custer, Crazy Horse, and Sitting Bowl.
And like you said, the characters, the names that you
have never heard, the things that you're going to learn
are are remarkable. I think you'll enjoy the book. One
of our great friends here on the program, author Tom
Claven on The Morning Show with Preston Scott
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