November 24, 2025 • 44 mins
Join Misty Lynch and Charles Freeman as they dig into practical strategies for building long-term wealth and navigating today’s market shifts. In this episode, get clear, actionable tips on investing, tax planning, and preparing for financial transitions.
Where to find Charles Freeman
Websites: htgwealth.com/team/charles-freeman/
Where to find Misty
Websites:
- Tax-efficient investing: mutual funds vs. ETFs and how to minimize taxes with smart moves like tax loss harvesting
- Understanding Roth conversions, their tax implications, and strategies for wealth transfer
- Segmenting your investments for different goals and using behavioral finance to manage risk
- The importance of diversification—including alternatives like real estate and commodities—in a changing market
- How to assess your portfolio balance, avoid common tax pitfalls, and know when to seek professional advice
Where to find Charles Freeman
Websites: htgwealth.com/team/charles-freeman/
Where to find Misty
Websites:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the demis Defying Money podcast, where each week
you will hear unforgettable conversations with expert guests about success, money, business,
and small steps you can take to elevate your life
and wealth. Now here's your host, Misty Lynch.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, everyone, Thank you so much for joining me for
this episode of Demistifying Money. I'm joined by my friend
Charles Freeman. He is a portfolio manager and investment strategist
and the owner of adapt First Tax and Investments, where
he helps clients build portfolios and tax planning and strategies
for tax efficient investing, long term wealth strategies. And he
(00:39):
has a unique, disciplined, research driven approach to personal finance.
I've been working with Charles for a long time, helping
build the portfolios at some of you financial advisors. I
do like the way that you know, we've we've kind
of changed from you know, I think a lot of
times with investing, there's different approaches you could take, passive, active, tactical,
(00:59):
and I think that there's usually not necessarily one right
answer for everybody. But I do like the way that
we've started to, you know, kind of dig into what's
going on in today's economy. Dig into different complex investment strategies,
so we can really help the clients in the best
way possible for them. So, and he's also a CFA,
which is one of the grizzliest tests I believe in
(01:19):
the financial services industry. So he knows his stuff. Thank
you so much, Charles for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about that.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
This episode of Demystifying Money with Misdy Lynch is proudly
sponsored by Soundview Financial Advisors. Visit www dot Soundview financial
Advisors dot com to learn more.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So, you have a unique background. I know that. I
think you came to New York for fencing, is that right?
But tell the audience how you got your start in
finance and what's got adept first tax investments to where
it is today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, it was kind of a crazy story.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
I was a fencer at Carolina and I got an
opportunity to move to New York to fence.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
At the New York Athletic Club after school.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
And one of the guys there I was actually a
marketing emphasis in business school, so I was thinking actually
going down the advertising route and one of the guys
at the fencing clubs said that if I was going
to try to do advertising in New York City, then
I would be working one hundred hours a week. He
was working as a trader down on Wall Street and
(02:34):
his firm was hiring, and he got me an interview,
and that's kind of how I got started from there.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So yeah, now I think it's interesting. A lot of
us end up, you know, but I think the marketing
background and advertising, I think it helps all business owners
in a lot of different ways. I talked to plenty
of people who've kind of started out that route went
in a different direction. But you know, going from working
in New York at a larger firm, what led you
to want to start out on your own and be
(03:01):
an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. So I lived in New York work there for
a few years.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
But I'm from North Carolina here in a central North
Carolina small town called Kernersville, and I have a big family,
and I missed being home. You don't really appreciate the
small town until you kind of get away from it.
I wanted to move back home, and I did that
after three years. And after I came back, I started
having family members. My uncle was actually my first client,
(03:31):
and he wanted help with his four one K, and
so that kind of what led me down the path
of you know, personal finance and financial planning and so
helping my friends my family with their stuff is kind.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Of grown from there.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I think, you know a lot of times that's definitely
true about small towns. I think, you know, you can't
wait to get out of it when you're younger, and
then you think back about, you know, what you left,
and so it's good to you know, to be able
to have that flexibility and help people wherever because everywhere
in there there's everybody has financial planning and personal finance needs.
Like you mentioned your uncle with his four oh and k.
(04:06):
Really that formal training, that education is not widely accessible
to everybody. So you know, I think with a lot
of times it does end up being like starting to
figure out what the need is and figuring out how
to fill it. But it's it's changed for you from
you know, from what you were doing in trading to
the tax and portfolio management. So what kind of drew
you into that side of finance.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yeah, so it's it's been a little bit of a
journey because I was I was doing a lot of
high volume trading early in my career, and as I
transitioned into financial planning, you know that it's a shift
of kind of focus. I looked a little more longer
term with with clients assets, and then also with the
(04:51):
tax that's actually a more recent.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Addition.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
I have done a lot of research on markets and
kind of of the macroeconomy where we are, and one
of the things that I determined was that tax planning
is going to be one of the biggest issues over
the next twenty years. If you think about like the
debt that we have, the deficit spending that we're we
continue to do, I think, you know, tax rates over
(05:20):
time are going to start going higher. And so one
of the things I wanted to do is increase my
tax knowledge. So I got an additional certification as an
EA that's an enrolled agent with the I r S.
And also I started working with my CPA and helping
him actually prepare returns and doing more tax planning because
(05:44):
to me, they're they you know that the disciplines kind
of joined together and they overlap in so many ways.
So one of the things we're trying to do is
be very holistic in how we think about investment management
and tax planning and financial planning.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Investors today hear tax efficiency a lot, but what are
some of the most practical, practical smart tax moves that
everybody And I feel like most people they might not
consider themselves an investor, but they probably do have some investments,
whether it's their home, whether it's in their four or
one K. What are some things that every day investors
could look out for.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
You know. One of the things that I think is.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Very common today that I've seen is being able to
utilize ETFs versus mutual funds when it comes to.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Taxable accounts for investment.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
A lot of mutual funds will kick off capital gains
even though the fund is not actually sold, so whereas
an ETF, it's more tax efficient in that you don't
actually capture, you know, again until you sell the position,
so you know, the investment vehicle is.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Actually one thing something else.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Tax lost harvest kind of goes along with that every
year to where basically I look at if we've made
trades throughout the year, I see what kind of taxable
gains are in the account. Is there a loss that
I can utilize to offset that gain to minimize taxes
for the client for that particular year.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We can always you know, wait and reinvest if.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I still feel like that's a good opportunity, but we
can basically try to use some strategies like that to
minimize you know, taxes for them.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Right, because I think that's one thing that a lot
of investors, they love to see the gains and the growth,
but also the taxes sometimes will be they'll you know,
the way they can't. And I always feel like you
shouldn't necessarily, you know, not invest or not do this
because of the tax confluence, or ask for a raise
because you might pay more in taxes. But I do
think having those efficiencies, those those strategies as far as
(07:54):
what vehicles you use, whether it's exchange shaded funds or
mutual funds, and also, like you said, looking at selling
some of those losses to offset gains. It doesn't necessarily
it might not even have much of an impact on
your portfolio if you invest in something similar. So I
think those strategies are really important. But also I think
that's where sometimes professionals can help look at these things
(08:16):
because it can be overwhelming, I think for a lot
of investors to think there's so many exchange shirt of
funds out there. There's so many mutual funds, there's you
know which you know which one is right for me?
So I think sometimes that can be it can be
difficult for people who are trying to get started where
they might have that overwhelm and not start at all.
So super important to think about that. But there are
(08:39):
different ways, and a lot of wealthy people pay less
in taxes because they have a tax strategy right right,
and so important for all investors, everyone, savor, anybody to
think about that tax impact and how it can really
impact the returns. You have another thing that comes up
a lot in conversations when it comes to tax planning
with my clients and people I talked to lately as
(09:02):
they're approaching either retirement or they have a lot of
money saved up in pre tax accounts, maybe in their
for and ks, their iras, and that's Roth conversions. So
can you talk to me a little bit about the
tax implications of converting, you know, using a Roth conversion
and some of maybe the misconceptions that people have about that.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Yeah, it's a it's a really hot topic right now.
So I've kind of I've bought the tax practice a
year and a half ago, and I'm looking through our
clients' tax situations and one of the things that I
think is really important roth conversions. You're going to be huge,
i think in the coming years, because there was there
was a rule change to where if you inherit an IRA,
(09:43):
like a pre tax IRA, then the beneficiary needs to
take that money out over ten years.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And one of the things that I'm starting to see
is that the people that are actually inheriting these iras, right,
they are.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Typically in their peak kind of earnings years, so they're
incomes are already you know, pretty.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
High if they have a good job. Well, then you
have to add on.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
A pretty sizeable distribution to be able to get all
of the money out over that teen year period. Well,
what assuming is is pushing them into much higher tax brackets.
So and this is really compounded if it's a large amount,
like a million or a few million dollars, right, so
you could really actually be pushed into the highest tax bracket.
(10:28):
And one of the things that I think is going
to be important that that you know, rather than doing that,
you can basically take chunks every year for the person
the parent, right, and they could still you know, do
the conversion, they're going to owe tax on that can
be converted amount, right, but the taxes are going to
(10:49):
do less than if they waited and then ended up
passing that on later because it's being layered on top
of the income they're already making. So I've been actually
talking to quite a few clients about that. The other
thing that I'm actually running into, which is kind of
an interesting it's kind of the opposite of that, is
that clients who they're only you know, making, just drawing
(11:11):
Social Security, maybe taking some minimal distributions. But one of
the things I'm seeing is that the standard deduction now
is so high that basically they're not even utilizing the
full standard deduction because they don't have enough income outside.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Of Social Security.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
So what's interesting, Like one client, I was able to
just convert twenty five thousand dollars and they're actually going
to pay no tax on that money because the deduction
actually takes their tax on income down to zero. So
if you say, that's kind of another way that a
Roth conversion comes into play, where you're maximized deduction or
(11:53):
you're actually saying, hey, we know that the kids are
going to be in a much higher tax bracket, So
let's go ahead and minimum the taxes by taking some
of that money.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Now, but before it gets passed on. So a couple
of different ways to utilize that strategy.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
What factors should someone consider before converting? You mentioned their
own tax bracket and the standard deduction, but is there
anything else you could consider. I know a lot of
people are really anxious to do this. They want to
do this, but also they might be paying quite a
bit in taxes themselves if they were to do the strategy.
Should they look at, you know, where this breaks even
(12:29):
or where this would pay off. If there's somebody who's
maybe an early retirey looking to take advantage of this strategy,
and maybe it's not for wealth transfer, maybe it's just
because they want to not have to pay as much
in taxes in the future, or they're seeing these large
required minimum distributions in their future that they aren't really
excited about paying the taxes on.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things about
the rough arras said there are no requirementimum distributions for it,
so you know, it makes sense to go ahead and hey,
let's let's pay some of the taxes now, especially what
I was talking about with regards to.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
The debt and the deficit to where you.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Know, if it's kind of like we're in a situation,
you know, kind of like what happened after World War Two,
and we had a very large steps to GDP, and
one of the solutions outside of that that was, you know,
all of the tax brackets were raised. So you know,
I think going forward that that gave longer term is
one of the the the sort of the path that
(13:28):
we're on, and so it would really make sense to
probably go ahead and pay some of those taxes now
knowing that you know down in the.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Future that those tax practs are going to be raised.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
So there's there's a lot of different benefits to a wroth.
And and like you said on the accumulated gain, So
that client that I moved the twenty five thousand over court,
not only did I was able to kind of save
them the tax money on that because they're utilized in
a senior deduction, but all of the gains on that
money going forward, right, they're not taxed. So if it
(14:02):
was left in the pre tax amount, then it's going
to accumulate, and then it's even more that's going to
be taxed. So by doing the Roth conversions kind of
head of time, we're saving on the front end by
utils and standard reduction, and then we're also.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
All those danger or not tax as well.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So yeah, I know it's not something that every family
thinks about, but I do know. I do talk to
people who especially when they looked at their financial plan
and they see the wealth that they've accumulated and what
that could look like over time if we're looking at
an age ninety age ninety five. But it's a tricky
conversation sometimes to get started with families talking about wealth transfer.
(14:42):
What are some ways, you know, if you are talking
with a client that you've approached the topic about wealth
transfer and maybe trying to help clients balance living really
well today and leaving something meaningful for their family.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I think it's it's a very personal thing.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
What I try to do is get people to imagine,
you know, especially if they're right sort of in the
years leading up to retirement or or sort of right there,
you know, what is it that you've always wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Right?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Do you want to you know, downsize and have a
beach house, or do you want to travel in you know,
go traveling in Europe several times a year. It's it's
important to kind of have that vision and then sort
of map out, Okay, these are the assets that you have,
and can it fund you know, that vision without there
being any red flags? And if so, what can we
(15:37):
we can project out how much might be left over
for the kids, you know, so I kind of look
at at that and try to help them think about
and the other thing it's kind of behint topic for
us has been long term care because my grandmother actually
just went through a six year period where she had
Alzheimer's and she went through all that iff and stages
(16:00):
of of care, home health care, assisted of living and
then memory care and skilled nursing care at the end,
and that can really absorb a lot of assets, depending
on what kind of plan you might have in place,
or if you're going to you know, kind of pay
out of pocket those kinds of things. So I think
(16:21):
it's like kind of thinking about, you know, what your
vision for retirement is, what are some contingencies, like, you know,
if you had a healthcare event, and do you have
enough assets to support that lifestyle?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
And then if so, that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
You know, can we also project, what's going to transfer,
and then what's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, those are all things that I think a lot
of times once you experience it, once you see a
family member have to pay for long term care, or
you see somebody in your family you know, I know,
I have family members that have lived to ninety six
years old. Like, it doesn't seem as out of reach
when you experience that, and so I think it's important
for for everybody to kind of think about those things.
But even you know, as you do the tax planning
(17:04):
and the strategy, maybe you use the money for long
term care, maybe your family members inherit it, all of
these things, but figuring out what's the best way to
fund this it might be similar where you don't have
to choose one or the other, but it might be Okay,
we're gonna have this money down here down the road,
what's the best thing we could do for it today
to take care of it? Which leads me to another
(17:25):
investment related topic. I talk to a lot of people that,
because of the high interest rates in highyield savings accounts,
have a lot of cash sitting on the sidelines, and
one of their thoughts is, well, it's here and it's safe,
and I can see it. I'll get back in the
market when things calm down. What are your thoughts when
(17:46):
it comes to people who maybe, and this could be
at any point in time, I think I can't even
think of a time where it was just, you know,
nothing going on. Everything was cool, but for people who
you know, were just the government shutdown. Resear all of
these things going on. When you have investors asking like
what should I do in this market? How do you
(18:07):
help them kind of figure out a strategy that'll work,
knowing that markets are going to shift and have volatility.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
It's a really difficult question, actually, And one of the
things I've started doing is kind of segmenting money in
the sense of so I did a lot of research
on behavioral finance.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Years ago, and.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I designed a it's about twenty three questions and a
risk profile that I will give my clients. I've been
doing this for twenty five ish years now, and basically
I've kind of see different profiles of investors, right, so
I kind of guide them through or asked them all
these questions to kind of see what category they fit into.
(18:52):
And you know, a lot of times like Let's say
they come out as what I would call a balanced investor,
which is kind of a maybe middle of the road,
like a moderate is another term that a.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Lot of people use.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
So they might be normally a balanced investor. But to
your point, what if they had this like big chunk
of cash. They don't want it to just kind of
sit in the bank per se, right, but balance if
I put them in a more balanced portfolio, that actually
might be a little too much risk, you know. So
one of the things I've started doing is segmenting accounts
(19:28):
to where we might drop that in a more conservative portfolio,
so we'll still have some market exposure, but it's not
as much as maybe their normal risk profile.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We're hoping to earn a.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Little bit more than we get at the bank, but
we're also not taking as much risk.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
As we might normally do. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I think that that's one thing that you know,
we do get We all know that things are getting
more expensive. We all understand inflation, and we see it.
And so I think a lot of times when you know,
interest rates come back down and savings accounts or hiw
hield savings pay one two percent. Again, I think there
is a risk that your money won't be able to
do as much in the future. So I like the
thought of kind of segmenting the money because maybe you
(20:14):
do need some money for a goal that's happening next
year or two years from now, but maybe this, you know,
depending on you know how you keep your money and
where it is, you don't necessarily have to treat it
one way. I've talked to people who say like I'm
aggressive or I'm conservative, and I don't necessarily I feel
like I'm aggressive in my wrath. I'm conservative in you know,
(20:37):
my high held savings, and then with my kids, you know,
five twenty nine plans, I'm moderate because they're going to
school in the near future. I don't feel like you
necessarily are one thing, but your money does have different jobs,
and so I think that's what's really important with the
tax strategy and really knowing. I think it's good to
have a baseline like yeah, no, if I saw those numbers,
(20:59):
i'd feel say, or if I saw those numbers, I'd
buy more. And I think people kind of know where
they land there. But it is important to kind of
look at things individually, kind of figure out how much
cash is too much. Maybe you know what number feels
good to have in the bank. So that's where that
behavioral finance piece I think is so important, because sometimes
(21:21):
we just feel and think a certain way because that's
what we've always been told. I remember working with a
person once who retired and said, oh, no, I'm not
supposed to ever touch that money. My dad told me
never to touch that retirement money. And I was like,
you're retired, is absolutely when you're supposed to touch that money.
But her had it still felt wrong. So we hear
things and we learn things, but a lot of times
(21:41):
we're not necessarily know why we feel that way until
we really poke around at it. So super important to
kind of use those questionnaires figure out, Okay, what is
maybe I haven't thought about that this way? Yeah, and
then yeah, make sure that you're making decisions not out
of fear.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Yeah. And the other thing I do that's probably a
little different than most people is is I do try
to take a more like proactive approach to risk management.
So even even in my clients where they would they
would come out as like a balanced investor, I think
it's really important to kind of think about where the
market is and kind of where you know, what's going
(22:19):
on with interest rates and and like you know, the
teariff thing is a big as a big issue right now,
Like where do we think markets are going to go?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
It's important to kind of think about where.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
What are the influences over the market over the next
one to three years, and how do we want to
be positioned accordingly. So it's not saying that we should,
you know, take a big position necessarily, but maybe till
the portfolio, Like we want to be diversified, and I'm
very big on diversification, but it's important to kind of say, okay,
(22:50):
here's an opportunity we see, like let's take advantage of that.
So it might be in a certain sector or like
on the bond side, it might be given duration or
something like that. But I just think it's really important
to think about where the market is right now and
in a adjust accordingly.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
So so I do that with my clients as well.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, I think that's also a way because you know,
I was thinking about how to how investors could prepare
mentally for volatility market conditions, and I think that that
is a different approach and I like that we you know,
we implement that where we will till in a certain direction.
We are not day trading here, but I do feel
like there are changes. There are things that we can
(23:34):
maybe look at and say, Okay, this is you know,
this is the way the world is right now, and
these are maybe some things that we can add or
take away to kind of maybe keep things, you know, diversified,
reduce risk, but also take advantage of what's real today.
So I think you know, a lot of market you know,
we look back historical performance doesn't mean but it's kind
(23:56):
of like you're going into you know, the future. You
want to know what's like are going on vacation. You
don't really care about the weather forecast last week. You
want to know what the forecast.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Is next week.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So I think that's a really important thing for people
to think about because things are changing. The economy is changing,
Government's changing how quickly people step in, and so really
market conditions. You could look back fifty years ago and
it's just a it's kind of a lot of changes
have been made with how quickly you know, government steps in.
So important to kind of look at things today and
(24:27):
kind of prepare for things to change, but also realize
that that's where opportunity comes.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
So yeah, just the other day we were talking about
this and I said, you know, the thing about it is,
it's like if you take a purely like passive approach, right,
most passive approaches are so pretty diversified. But the idea
is that you know, you kind of set this allocation
and you sort of forget about it. And if to
(24:55):
your point, like if the market is the same like
it was over the last you know, fifty or one
hundred years, and you know this is going to give
you the optimized kind of return for that, but what
if it changes? You know, what if you know bonds,
you know, as a as a good example, you know,
really bond yields have been going down since the nineteen seventies, right,
(25:16):
and they went all the way down to zero, So
not only did you get the interest rate off of
the bond, but you also got the principal appreciation right
for the crisis going up. Well, now, you know, bonials
have come down so much that they've just started to
kind of rebound. So we're we're kind of entering a
(25:36):
new regime to where bond yils might be more range bound.
They could potentially be going up because if people are
worried about, you know, credibility of the US and repaying
some of the debt and things like that that would
require higher bond yalds. So it's a very different sort
of regime than what we've had over the last fifty years.
And if that's the case, well, then what does that
(25:57):
mean for our portfolios? Because especially as we get older,
the conventional wisdom is to have more and more of
your assets in bonds. But how do we if we
are entering this new regime? Does that still make sense?
Does that strategy make sense? So it's it's really important
to kind of think about, like you said, what's changed,
(26:20):
and then you know, what are we looking at over
the coming years.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I think that it's you know, it's something that comes
up a little bit. You know, you mentioned bonds and diversification,
but you know, what are some ways that other alternative investments,
different things like commodities, real estate. How do they fit
into a plan because a lot of times they're kind
of boxed out of some of the traditional passive portfolios.
But how can they help investors in different economies so they.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Can really provide an additional level of diversification. One of
the things that we've seen over the last you know,
I would say sixty to eighty years, is that as
the world has become more connected, we've lost some of
the diversification benefits across UH, you know stocks, right, and
(27:09):
and those are some structural issues that.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That have have allowed that.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
So bringing in alternatives really can help you to not
have all of your eggs in one basket. And and
that's where something like commodities, especially UH can be huge.
I mean, we've seen the run in gold and silver
as an example over the last couple of years, and
and that's been a huge positive influence for portfolios.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And so not.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Everything is kind of tied to to the stock market.
And and gold specifically can be you know, considered a
safe haven asset if we look at historical crashes in
the market or or downturns when investors get really nervous,
you know, they look at gold as a safe haven. Again,
it can provide maybe if the if stocks are going down,
(27:59):
andeople are selling and they're looking for something safe. You know,
gold is often a lot of a lot of times
is a place where that money flows through. So really
can what you want to think about with diversification is
the relationships across asset classes and how they move relative
to one another, because the idea of what diversification is
(28:20):
is that no matter what happens in the market, you know,
is what happens to your portfolio, you know. And that's
again where if you are two tied to one asset class,
then you can see that level of polatility.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
And your portfolio really.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Really range quite quite sharply, versus if you have a
more well diversified portfolio that you know, this asset class
might be going down because of X, y Z reason,
but this other asset class is going up right because
the money's kind of flowing from there and here, and
our overall portfolio is not getting hurt too bad.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, it's definitely interest to think about where money is
moving because it's not like it just disappears when it
leaves somewhere, you know, or something goes down. It's always
moving somewhere, which is another thing I wanted because I've
also talked to a lot of people that maybe have
fallen in love with some of their winners, maybe they
have done well with crypto or AI tech, and they
(29:20):
don't want to diversify because this has been so good
for them. But what are your thoughts when it comes
to other you know, and I think that that's just
an interesting topic where people are looking at that now
is how much growth they've seen in certain areas. And
I still think it makes the case for diversification. But
what are your thoughts when some people are maybe thinking
about all of this growth and wondering is this are
(29:42):
we do for a crash? Is this a bubble?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
What does this mean? So how do you kind of
talk through investors, you know, fears on that end.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean a lot of
what I'm seeing today reminds me of what I saw
back in when.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I first started my career.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
So I started my career in nineteen ninety eight, so
it was right at the end of the tech level
and the first few years that I was trading ninety eight,
ninety nine and into two thousand.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
I mean, we saw a lot of the same things.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
You know, There's been a lot of similarities between Cisco
that kind of built the infrastructure for the internet in Nvidia, right,
and and one of the things that it's it's kind
of maybe I was scarred because I was kind of
went through that period I saw like the just the
(30:34):
enthusiasm and the euphoria around tech at that time and
how it's going to change the world.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And it did. I mean, it was a it was
a breakthrough for.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
US as as humanity and civilization, right, this technology breakthrough.
But that doesn't mean that you know, the NASA didn't
go down. You know, we almost eighty percent over the
coming years after the tech bobbile kind of blew up.
So you know, one of the things I think people
uh tend to forget is that markets moving cycles.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And if you look back.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And I just saw I chart about this yesterday, you know,
for the longest time, GM was was one of the
best stocks in the market, right, and you know then
it's Apple, right, has been over the last couple of
years from now and video has kind of taken that throng.
So at different points in time in market history, you
can have dominant industries or dominant companies.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
But what we've what we've not seen is any one
continue that forever. Right.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It'll it'll, it'll be there for a while, but then
competition comes in or you know, maybe the expectations are
too high and they can't meet them. So I think
that's the thing you have to be really careful about
because like like you were talking about earlier, were talking
about taxes, and I've seen in my career numerous I
(31:56):
can't even count how many times to where I've seen
stocks that have been buid up and they've they've gone
up to super high levels, and then the narrative changes.
People don't sell it because they don't want to pay
the taxes, you know, right, or they're like, oh, it's
going to come back, it's going to come back. It's
a temporide downturn, and then it goes down more, and
then it goes down more, and then it goes down more,
(32:17):
you know, and and then they basically lose all of
the games that they had. So it's it's really difficult
when you I mean, it's great when you've had a
stock that has performed so well, but to your point
to get you know, developed sort of a relationship with
that stock, like you're attached to it. You're like, it's
so good, like and what if it keeps more? And
(32:40):
I think it's a really hard emotional barrier to overcome.
Kind of goes back to the behavioral financing. But I
do I do tell people, don't let you know, taxes
for instance, you know, drive the bus on making this
decision because you know it's better to go ahead and
take the game, pay the taxes on it, and and
(33:01):
we can always reinvest in it later. Like let's say
it comes down down to a more reasonable evaluation, maybe
they still have good prospects. But but don't you know,
ride it all the way up and write it, write
it all the way back down.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That happens a lot too with people who get you know,
employee stock participation, you know, where they end up having
a lot of stock in their own employer, plus their
paycheck tied up in their employer, and a lot of
everything kind of locked in there. And so you know,
sometimes I'll just ask people if this was cash, would
you put it in your employer stock today? And a
lot of times they're like, no, it's okay. Then we're
(33:35):
going to figure out a strategy when it comes to
your incentive stock options. You're our use all these things
with what we should do because again, like you said,
sometimes you are emotionally attached to the outcome and the
company or the stock and important to kind of try
to separate that piece out and make those decisions accordingly
because like you said, they can have huge tax implications
(33:57):
where you you might you might be afraid to say
not want to sell because now your basis was so
low that the tax you know, the tax inplication is huge,
so super important to kind of always and like you said,
building like that tax planning in with the investment strategy.
They're so correl they're just so intertwined that it is
(34:18):
really important I think for everybody to kind of consider
that with all the decisions they make and kind of
look at it from that lens. But for somebody with
a four one k ira or taxable account, is there
any like quick audit or questions that you'd have for
them to kind of assess if their portfolio is balanced correctly,
anything that they could look at kind of maybe if
(34:39):
they've never thought about it before, take a peek at
it and see if they're in.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
The right place. Yeah, I think. I mean.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
The thing that I've ran across quite a bit lately
is with I mean, as well as the market is
done as an example, what it's done is it's kind
of overweighted stocks relative to bonds or if they have
and quandities or other.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Things in there.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
So what it's literally done is shifted people's asset allocation
much higher than they might want to be, right, And
so I've been I've been trying to reiterate it's important to,
you know, just kind of reassess your risk level, especially
like where you are in your life. And I think
that's something that a lot of people don't really understand,
(35:23):
is that so markets again kind of move in cycles, right, Well,
the market cycle doesn't always align with where you are
in your life.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
So you might be ready to retire.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
Right and and but if you retire and then the
market goes down over like let's say has a rough path,
maybe we go through a recession or even like a consolidation,
and you start taking systematic withdrawals from that. Well, if
the market's going down and you're taking out the withdrawal,
it's kind of a double whamming, right, It's called sequence
(35:58):
of returns risk. So what that will do is even
though the market comes back up later, like after the
tech crash and the market rebounded, right, but what happens,
but those withdrawals make it harder for your portfolio or recover.
So it's really important to kind of think about what
your risk level is and looking at your account and saying, okay,
(36:20):
one like I come out as a balance investor, and
I want to make sure that that I'm balanced. But also,
you know, kind of where the broader market is relative
to that financial plan strategy. So there's a couple of
different things. I think you can try to just kind
of keep monitoring to make sure that your your investments
(36:40):
are aligned with your goals at all times.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, now, I think it is super important to look
at those things. And also sometimes people think they have
diversification because they own different funds or different ETFs with
different names, or maybe they come from different you know, custodians.
But also super important to look at what those underlying
holdings are, the top ten holdings. I've seen a lot
of people who think they have diversification and they own
a lot of funds that own the exact same companies.
(37:07):
So I think that's one way to kind of dig
a little bit deeper. And somebody thought that having it,
you know, the S and P five hundred index fund
from this and then this one was diversification, or the
Schwab and the Fidelity this were different and they really
really kind of was like a suitcase packed with the
same stuff.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
This is a different suitcase.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Yeah, that's that's such a huge point right now in
today's market because one of the things that we actually
are in the most concentrated market we've ever had. You know,
these companies that call them the Magnificent seven, and they've
been phenomenal, right, Apple, Microsoft, you know, those companies have
done so well since the financial crisis of eight or nine.
(37:51):
The challenges is that, you know, they've become such a bigger,
a big part of the S and P five hundred
that the other four ninety three are actually not even
really represented anymore. So really it's what happens with those
companies that's dictating the market. And that's again another kind
(38:11):
of red flag that's out there because we have seen
things like this in the past. It's actually worse than
we've seen in the past because it is the most
concentrated now. But even like I was referencing the tech bubble,
you know, the top ten there, and it wasn't even
all in tech. That's the other issue kind of a
nuance about this time around is they're very related. You know,
(38:32):
they're all kind of around this AI thing, and so
when you have a very concentrated market, like that. It's
great as the market's going up, but then again there's
a lot of embedded volatility, and so that if the
narrative starts to change, and this is kind of what
happened with the tech bubble, you know, the narrative started
to change and it was harder and harder to meet expectations,
(38:53):
and then when people started to sell, it kind of
became self reinforcing. And markets tend to go down three
times faster than they go up because people just start
selling and then that begets more selling, and so.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
It can happen relatively quickly.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
So you have to really be kind of aware in
markets like this that you kind of think you're diversified
to your point, but you know, if all of those
funds are kind of invested in these sane you know,
seven to ten stocks, you know you're really not as
you're not as divers fied as you might think.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So yeah, no, and I think that that's where you know,
just doing even if it's just getting educated on what
you have or doing a little bit of research, can
be super helpful. If somebody listening is feeling overwhelmed by
investing and taxes in general, where do you recommend that
they start.
Speaker 5 (39:45):
Certainly working with a credential professional like yourself is I
think a great place to start.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Because you know, you have to be really.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
Careful about going to the internet and doing research. There's
there's websites and a lot of people are looking at
TikTok videos to make financial decisions, and I think you
have to be really really careful about that. I think
leaning working with someone who again has an established credential,
(40:15):
helps you to kind of filter out the noise and
they have experience and can help you navigate some of
these things and answer some of those questions.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It's a good point. I do think there is a
lot of tax advice. I think there's a lot of
people asking like can I write off my car? Can
I hire my baby? Can I do And it's like,
you don't own a business, what are you doing? You know,
they're seeing these things that maybe worked for some people,
but they might not be applicable at all to you
and your situation. And those people are getting paid by
(40:44):
views and clicks and likes. That is their goal, not
you know, not necessarily having a regulator. Making sure that
they're giving some financial advice so super important that that's
definitely a good point. And there's a lot of information
out there and it's moving around a lot faster, so
definitely important to kind of, you know, figure out what's
(41:04):
right for you. I think before we used to get
advice from people, you know, holidays at our dinner table
or whatever, but now it's really coming from everywhere, and
so not like any of that advice is necessarily great
for you, But I feel like, you know, working with
somebody who really knows you, your tax situation, your goals
(41:25):
is so so important. How can listeners learn more about
your work and adapt first or connect with you? I
know I found you because of your writing. I loved
your you know, the blogs and things you were putting
out on LinkedIn about the market. I thought it was
super interesting, and you know, that's how we got connected
in the first place years ago. But how can other
people find you these days if they're looking for more?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
I've kind of had to put my writing on pause
a little bit because behind it, you're so busy, so
overwhelming that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I know that's the tough part about writing great content.
It takes a while, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
It really does, and I miss it.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
Honestly, My goal this year is to is to try
to get back to that on a more regular basis.
Just our website www. Dot at first dot com is
a good way to reach me. And and uh yeah,
I'm on LinkedIn, so if you want a message messaging LinkedIn,
(42:23):
I'm happy to.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Respond there as well. I just haven't as active as
I have been.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
In the last couple of years, so yeah, no, that happens,
it works well.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Thank you so much for joining today. I think you
know when I want everybody listening. You know, even if
you don't consider yourself an investor, all of us pay taxes,
all of us have to look out for ourselves and
our own, you know, financial future. No one's coming to
say I think we've all kind of learned that lesson
by now, so very important to really just even if
this is something that intimidates you or it's not something
(42:56):
that feels natural to you, it's really important for everybody
to get get more comfortable. And even listening to a
podcast like this, you're doing the right thing by starting
to just expose yourself to these topics. And I think
that this is really something that anybody can get a
better understanding of if they really just planned a little
bit of time, a little effort, whether finding the right
person to help them or figuring out, you know, some
(43:17):
ways that they can help themselves do a better job
in you know, whatever economy we're in. So if you'd
like to set up some time to work with me
to look at your finances or catch up on old
episodes of the podcast, please head over to missulanch dot com.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode and
talk again next week. Thank you so much for listening,
(43:38):
Thank you for joining us on another insightful episode of
demonst Buying Money. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate,
and leave a review. Stay tuned for more engaging conversations
on our next episode, and remember knowledge is the key
to financial empowerment.
Welcome to the demis Defying Money podcast, where each week
you will hear unforgettable conversations with expert guests about success, money, business,
and small steps you can take to elevate your life
and wealth. Now here's your host, Misty Lynch.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, everyone, Thank you so much for joining me for
this episode of Demistifying Money. I'm joined by my friend
Charles Freeman. He is a portfolio manager and investment strategist
and the owner of adapt First Tax and Investments, where
he helps clients build portfolios and tax planning and strategies
for tax efficient investing, long term wealth strategies. And he
(00:39):
has a unique, disciplined, research driven approach to personal finance.
I've been working with Charles for a long time, helping
build the portfolios at some of you financial advisors. I
do like the way that you know, we've we've kind
of changed from you know, I think a lot of
times with investing, there's different approaches you could take, passive, active, tactical,
(00:59):
and I think that there's usually not necessarily one right
answer for everybody. But I do like the way that
we've started to, you know, kind of dig into what's
going on in today's economy. Dig into different complex investment strategies,
so we can really help the clients in the best
way possible for them. So, and he's also a CFA,
which is one of the grizzliest tests I believe in
(01:19):
the financial services industry. So he knows his stuff. Thank
you so much, Charles for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about that.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
This episode of Demystifying Money with Misdy Lynch is proudly
sponsored by Soundview Financial Advisors. Visit www dot Soundview financial
Advisors dot com to learn more.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So, you have a unique background. I know that. I
think you came to New York for fencing, is that right?
But tell the audience how you got your start in
finance and what's got adept first tax investments to where
it is today.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, it was kind of a crazy story.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
I was a fencer at Carolina and I got an
opportunity to move to New York to fence.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
At the New York Athletic Club after school.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
And one of the guys there I was actually a
marketing emphasis in business school, so I was thinking actually
going down the advertising route and one of the guys
at the fencing clubs said that if I was going
to try to do advertising in New York City, then
I would be working one hundred hours a week. He
was working as a trader down on Wall Street and
(02:34):
his firm was hiring, and he got me an interview,
and that's kind of how I got started from there.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So yeah, now I think it's interesting. A lot of
us end up, you know, but I think the marketing
background and advertising, I think it helps all business owners
in a lot of different ways. I talked to plenty
of people who've kind of started out that route went
in a different direction. But you know, going from working
in New York at a larger firm, what led you
to want to start out on your own and be
(03:01):
an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah. So I lived in New York work there for
a few years.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
But I'm from North Carolina here in a central North
Carolina small town called Kernersville, and I have a big family,
and I missed being home. You don't really appreciate the
small town until you kind of get away from it.
I wanted to move back home, and I did that
after three years. And after I came back, I started
having family members. My uncle was actually my first client,
(03:31):
and he wanted help with his four one K, and
so that kind of what led me down the path
of you know, personal finance and financial planning and so
helping my friends my family with their stuff is kind.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Of grown from there.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I think, you know a lot of times that's definitely
true about small towns. I think, you know, you can't
wait to get out of it when you're younger, and
then you think back about, you know, what you left,
and so it's good to you know, to be able
to have that flexibility and help people wherever because everywhere
in there there's everybody has financial planning and personal finance needs.
Like you mentioned your uncle with his four oh and k.
(04:06):
Really that formal training, that education is not widely accessible
to everybody. So you know, I think with a lot
of times it does end up being like starting to
figure out what the need is and figuring out how
to fill it. But it's it's changed for you from
you know, from what you were doing in trading to
the tax and portfolio management. So what kind of drew
you into that side of finance.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yeah, so it's it's been a little bit of a
journey because I was I was doing a lot of
high volume trading early in my career, and as I
transitioned into financial planning, you know that it's a shift
of kind of focus. I looked a little more longer
term with with clients assets, and then also with the
(04:51):
tax that's actually a more recent.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Addition.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
I have done a lot of research on markets and
kind of of the macroeconomy where we are, and one
of the things that I determined was that tax planning
is going to be one of the biggest issues over
the next twenty years. If you think about like the
debt that we have, the deficit spending that we're we
continue to do, I think, you know, tax rates over
(05:20):
time are going to start going higher. And so one
of the things I wanted to do is increase my
tax knowledge. So I got an additional certification as an
EA that's an enrolled agent with the I r S.
And also I started working with my CPA and helping
him actually prepare returns and doing more tax planning because
(05:44):
to me, they're they you know that the disciplines kind
of joined together and they overlap in so many ways.
So one of the things we're trying to do is
be very holistic in how we think about investment management
and tax planning and financial planning.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Investors today hear tax efficiency a lot, but what are
some of the most practical, practical smart tax moves that
everybody And I feel like most people they might not
consider themselves an investor, but they probably do have some investments,
whether it's their home, whether it's in their four or
one K. What are some things that every day investors
could look out for.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
You know. One of the things that I think is.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Very common today that I've seen is being able to
utilize ETFs versus mutual funds when it comes to.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Taxable accounts for investment.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
A lot of mutual funds will kick off capital gains
even though the fund is not actually sold, so whereas
an ETF, it's more tax efficient in that you don't
actually capture, you know, again until you sell the position,
so you know, the investment vehicle is.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Actually one thing something else.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Tax lost harvest kind of goes along with that every
year to where basically I look at if we've made
trades throughout the year, I see what kind of taxable
gains are in the account. Is there a loss that
I can utilize to offset that gain to minimize taxes
for the client for that particular year.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We can always you know, wait and reinvest if.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I still feel like that's a good opportunity, but we
can basically try to use some strategies like that to
minimize you know, taxes for them.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Right, because I think that's one thing that a lot
of investors, they love to see the gains and the growth,
but also the taxes sometimes will be they'll you know,
the way they can't. And I always feel like you
shouldn't necessarily, you know, not invest or not do this
because of the tax confluence, or ask for a raise
because you might pay more in taxes. But I do
think having those efficiencies, those those strategies as far as
(07:54):
what vehicles you use, whether it's exchange shaded funds or
mutual funds, and also, like you said, looking at selling
some of those losses to offset gains. It doesn't necessarily
it might not even have much of an impact on
your portfolio if you invest in something similar. So I
think those strategies are really important. But also I think
that's where sometimes professionals can help look at these things
(08:16):
because it can be overwhelming, I think for a lot
of investors to think there's so many exchange shirt of
funds out there. There's so many mutual funds, there's you
know which you know which one is right for me?
So I think sometimes that can be it can be
difficult for people who are trying to get started where
they might have that overwhelm and not start at all.
So super important to think about that. But there are
(08:39):
different ways, and a lot of wealthy people pay less
in taxes because they have a tax strategy right right,
and so important for all investors, everyone, savor, anybody to
think about that tax impact and how it can really
impact the returns. You have another thing that comes up
a lot in conversations when it comes to tax planning
with my clients and people I talked to lately as
(09:02):
they're approaching either retirement or they have a lot of
money saved up in pre tax accounts, maybe in their
for and ks, their iras, and that's Roth conversions. So
can you talk to me a little bit about the
tax implications of converting, you know, using a Roth conversion
and some of maybe the misconceptions that people have about that.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Yeah, it's a it's a really hot topic right now.
So I've kind of I've bought the tax practice a
year and a half ago, and I'm looking through our
clients' tax situations and one of the things that I
think is really important roth conversions. You're going to be huge,
i think in the coming years, because there was there
was a rule change to where if you inherit an IRA,
(09:43):
like a pre tax IRA, then the beneficiary needs to
take that money out over ten years.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And one of the things that I'm starting to see
is that the people that are actually inheriting these iras, right,
they are.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Typically in their peak kind of earnings years, so they're
incomes are already you know, pretty.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
High if they have a good job. Well, then you
have to add on.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
A pretty sizeable distribution to be able to get all
of the money out over that teen year period. Well,
what assuming is is pushing them into much higher tax brackets.
So and this is really compounded if it's a large amount,
like a million or a few million dollars, right, so
you could really actually be pushed into the highest tax bracket.
(10:28):
And one of the things that I think is going
to be important that that you know, rather than doing that,
you can basically take chunks every year for the person
the parent, right, and they could still you know, do
the conversion, they're going to owe tax on that can
be converted amount, right, but the taxes are going to
(10:49):
do less than if they waited and then ended up
passing that on later because it's being layered on top
of the income they're already making. So I've been actually
talking to quite a few clients about that. The other
thing that I'm actually running into, which is kind of
an interesting it's kind of the opposite of that, is
that clients who they're only you know, making, just drawing
(11:11):
Social Security, maybe taking some minimal distributions. But one of
the things I'm seeing is that the standard deduction now
is so high that basically they're not even utilizing the
full standard deduction because they don't have enough income outside.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Of Social Security.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
So what's interesting, Like one client, I was able to
just convert twenty five thousand dollars and they're actually going
to pay no tax on that money because the deduction
actually takes their tax on income down to zero. So
if you say, that's kind of another way that a
Roth conversion comes into play, where you're maximized deduction or
(11:53):
you're actually saying, hey, we know that the kids are
going to be in a much higher tax bracket, So
let's go ahead and minimum the taxes by taking some
of that money.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Now, but before it gets passed on. So a couple
of different ways to utilize that strategy.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
What factors should someone consider before converting? You mentioned their
own tax bracket and the standard deduction, but is there
anything else you could consider. I know a lot of
people are really anxious to do this. They want to
do this, but also they might be paying quite a
bit in taxes themselves if they were to do the strategy.
Should they look at, you know, where this breaks even
(12:29):
or where this would pay off. If there's somebody who's
maybe an early retirey looking to take advantage of this strategy,
and maybe it's not for wealth transfer, maybe it's just
because they want to not have to pay as much
in taxes in the future, or they're seeing these large
required minimum distributions in their future that they aren't really
excited about paying the taxes on.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things about
the rough arras said there are no requirementimum distributions for it,
so you know, it makes sense to go ahead and hey,
let's let's pay some of the taxes now, especially what
I was talking about with regards to.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
The debt and the deficit to where you.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Know, if it's kind of like we're in a situation,
you know, kind of like what happened after World War Two,
and we had a very large steps to GDP, and
one of the solutions outside of that that was, you know,
all of the tax brackets were raised. So you know,
I think going forward that that gave longer term is
one of the the the sort of the path that
(13:28):
we're on, and so it would really make sense to
probably go ahead and pay some of those taxes now
knowing that you know down in the.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Future that those tax practs are going to be raised.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
So there's there's a lot of different benefits to a wroth.
And and like you said on the accumulated gain, So
that client that I moved the twenty five thousand over court,
not only did I was able to kind of save
them the tax money on that because they're utilized in
a senior deduction, but all of the gains on that
money going forward, right, they're not taxed. So if it
(14:02):
was left in the pre tax amount, then it's going
to accumulate, and then it's even more that's going to
be taxed. So by doing the Roth conversions kind of
head of time, we're saving on the front end by
utils and standard reduction, and then we're also.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
All those danger or not tax as well.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
So yeah, I know it's not something that every family
thinks about, but I do know. I do talk to
people who especially when they looked at their financial plan
and they see the wealth that they've accumulated and what
that could look like over time if we're looking at
an age ninety age ninety five. But it's a tricky
conversation sometimes to get started with families talking about wealth transfer.
(14:42):
What are some ways, you know, if you are talking
with a client that you've approached the topic about wealth
transfer and maybe trying to help clients balance living really
well today and leaving something meaningful for their family.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I think it's it's a very personal thing.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
What I try to do is get people to imagine,
you know, especially if they're right sort of in the
years leading up to retirement or or sort of right there,
you know, what is it that you've always wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Right?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Do you want to you know, downsize and have a
beach house, or do you want to travel in you know,
go traveling in Europe several times a year. It's it's
important to kind of have that vision and then sort
of map out, Okay, these are the assets that you have,
and can it fund you know, that vision without there
being any red flags? And if so, what can we
(15:37):
we can project out how much might be left over
for the kids, you know, so I kind of look
at at that and try to help them think about
and the other thing it's kind of behint topic for
us has been long term care because my grandmother actually
just went through a six year period where she had
Alzheimer's and she went through all that iff and stages
(16:00):
of of care, home health care, assisted of living and
then memory care and skilled nursing care at the end,
and that can really absorb a lot of assets, depending
on what kind of plan you might have in place,
or if you're going to you know, kind of pay
out of pocket those kinds of things. So I think
(16:21):
it's like kind of thinking about, you know, what your
vision for retirement is, what are some contingencies, like, you know,
if you had a healthcare event, and do you have
enough assets to support that lifestyle?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
And then if so, that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
You know, can we also project, what's going to transfer,
and then what's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, those are all things that I think a lot
of times once you experience it, once you see a
family member have to pay for long term care, or
you see somebody in your family you know, I know,
I have family members that have lived to ninety six
years old. Like, it doesn't seem as out of reach
when you experience that, and so I think it's important
for for everybody to kind of think about those things.
But even you know, as you do the tax planning
(17:04):
and the strategy, maybe you use the money for long
term care, maybe your family members inherit it, all of
these things, but figuring out what's the best way to
fund this it might be similar where you don't have
to choose one or the other, but it might be Okay,
we're gonna have this money down here down the road,
what's the best thing we could do for it today
to take care of it? Which leads me to another
(17:25):
investment related topic. I talk to a lot of people that,
because of the high interest rates in highyield savings accounts,
have a lot of cash sitting on the sidelines, and
one of their thoughts is, well, it's here and it's safe,
and I can see it. I'll get back in the
market when things calm down. What are your thoughts when
(17:46):
it comes to people who maybe, and this could be
at any point in time, I think I can't even
think of a time where it was just, you know,
nothing going on. Everything was cool, but for people who
you know, were just the government shutdown. Resear all of
these things going on. When you have investors asking like
what should I do in this market? How do you
(18:07):
help them kind of figure out a strategy that'll work,
knowing that markets are going to shift and have volatility.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
It's a really difficult question, actually, And one of the
things I've started doing is kind of segmenting money in
the sense of so I did a lot of research
on behavioral finance.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Years ago, and.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I designed a it's about twenty three questions and a
risk profile that I will give my clients. I've been
doing this for twenty five ish years now, and basically
I've kind of see different profiles of investors, right, so
I kind of guide them through or asked them all
these questions to kind of see what category they fit into.
(18:52):
And you know, a lot of times like Let's say
they come out as what I would call a balanced investor,
which is kind of a maybe middle of the road,
like a moderate is another term that a.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Lot of people use.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
So they might be normally a balanced investor. But to
your point, what if they had this like big chunk
of cash. They don't want it to just kind of
sit in the bank per se, right, but balance if
I put them in a more balanced portfolio, that actually
might be a little too much risk, you know. So
one of the things I've started doing is segmenting accounts
(19:28):
to where we might drop that in a more conservative portfolio,
so we'll still have some market exposure, but it's not
as much as maybe their normal risk profile.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
We're hoping to earn a.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
Little bit more than we get at the bank, but
we're also not taking as much risk.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
As we might normally do. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I think that that's one thing that you know,
we do get We all know that things are getting
more expensive. We all understand inflation, and we see it.
And so I think a lot of times when you know,
interest rates come back down and savings accounts or hiw
hield savings pay one two percent. Again, I think there
is a risk that your money won't be able to
do as much in the future. So I like the
thought of kind of segmenting the money because maybe you
(20:14):
do need some money for a goal that's happening next
year or two years from now, but maybe this, you know,
depending on you know how you keep your money and
where it is, you don't necessarily have to treat it
one way. I've talked to people who say like I'm
aggressive or I'm conservative, and I don't necessarily I feel
like I'm aggressive in my wrath. I'm conservative in you know,
(20:37):
my high held savings, and then with my kids, you know,
five twenty nine plans, I'm moderate because they're going to
school in the near future. I don't feel like you
necessarily are one thing, but your money does have different jobs,
and so I think that's what's really important with the
tax strategy and really knowing. I think it's good to
have a baseline like yeah, no, if I saw those numbers,
(20:59):
i'd feel say, or if I saw those numbers, I'd
buy more. And I think people kind of know where
they land there. But it is important to kind of
look at things individually, kind of figure out how much
cash is too much. Maybe you know what number feels
good to have in the bank. So that's where that
behavioral finance piece I think is so important, because sometimes
(21:21):
we just feel and think a certain way because that's
what we've always been told. I remember working with a
person once who retired and said, oh, no, I'm not
supposed to ever touch that money. My dad told me
never to touch that retirement money. And I was like,
you're retired, is absolutely when you're supposed to touch that money.
But her had it still felt wrong. So we hear
things and we learn things, but a lot of times
(21:41):
we're not necessarily know why we feel that way until
we really poke around at it. So super important to
kind of use those questionnaires figure out, Okay, what is
maybe I haven't thought about that this way? Yeah, and
then yeah, make sure that you're making decisions not out
of fear.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Yeah. And the other thing I do that's probably a
little different than most people is is I do try
to take a more like proactive approach to risk management.
So even even in my clients where they would they
would come out as like a balanced investor, I think
it's really important to kind of think about where the
market is and kind of where you know, what's going
(22:19):
on with interest rates and and like you know, the
teariff thing is a big as a big issue right now,
Like where do we think markets are going to go?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
It's important to kind of think about where.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
What are the influences over the market over the next
one to three years, and how do we want to
be positioned accordingly. So it's not saying that we should,
you know, take a big position necessarily, but maybe till
the portfolio, Like we want to be diversified, and I'm
very big on diversification, but it's important to kind of say, okay,
(22:50):
here's an opportunity we see, like let's take advantage of that.
So it might be in a certain sector or like
on the bond side, it might be given duration or
something like that. But I just think it's really important
to think about where the market is right now and
in a adjust accordingly.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
So so I do that with my clients as well.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, I think that's also a way because you know,
I was thinking about how to how investors could prepare
mentally for volatility market conditions, and I think that that
is a different approach and I like that we you know,
we implement that where we will till in a certain direction.
We are not day trading here, but I do feel
like there are changes. There are things that we can
(23:34):
maybe look at and say, Okay, this is you know,
this is the way the world is right now, and
these are maybe some things that we can add or
take away to kind of maybe keep things, you know, diversified,
reduce risk, but also take advantage of what's real today.
So I think you know, a lot of market you know,
we look back historical performance doesn't mean but it's kind
(23:56):
of like you're going into you know, the future. You
want to know what's like are going on vacation. You
don't really care about the weather forecast last week. You
want to know what the forecast.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Is next week.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So I think that's a really important thing for people
to think about because things are changing. The economy is changing,
Government's changing how quickly people step in, and so really
market conditions. You could look back fifty years ago and
it's just a it's kind of a lot of changes
have been made with how quickly you know, government steps in.
So important to kind of look at things today and
(24:27):
kind of prepare for things to change, but also realize
that that's where opportunity comes.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
So yeah, just the other day we were talking about
this and I said, you know, the thing about it is,
it's like if you take a purely like passive approach, right,
most passive approaches are so pretty diversified. But the idea
is that you know, you kind of set this allocation
and you sort of forget about it. And if to
(24:55):
your point, like if the market is the same like
it was over the last you know, fifty or one
hundred years, and you know this is going to give
you the optimized kind of return for that, but what
if it changes? You know, what if you know bonds,
you know, as a as a good example, you know,
really bond yields have been going down since the nineteen seventies, right,
(25:16):
and they went all the way down to zero, So
not only did you get the interest rate off of
the bond, but you also got the principal appreciation right
for the crisis going up. Well, now, you know, bonials
have come down so much that they've just started to
kind of rebound. So we're we're kind of entering a
(25:36):
new regime to where bond yils might be more range bound.
They could potentially be going up because if people are
worried about, you know, credibility of the US and repaying
some of the debt and things like that that would
require higher bond yalds. So it's a very different sort
of regime than what we've had over the last fifty years.
And if that's the case, well, then what does that
(25:57):
mean for our portfolios? Because especially as we get older,
the conventional wisdom is to have more and more of
your assets in bonds. But how do we if we
are entering this new regime? Does that still make sense?
Does that strategy make sense? So it's it's really important
to kind of think about, like you said, what's changed,
(26:20):
and then you know, what are we looking at over
the coming years.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I think that it's you know, it's something that comes
up a little bit. You know, you mentioned bonds and diversification,
but you know, what are some ways that other alternative investments,
different things like commodities, real estate. How do they fit
into a plan because a lot of times they're kind
of boxed out of some of the traditional passive portfolios.
But how can they help investors in different economies so they.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Can really provide an additional level of diversification. One of
the things that we've seen over the last you know,
I would say sixty to eighty years, is that as
the world has become more connected, we've lost some of
the diversification benefits across UH, you know stocks, right, and
(27:09):
and those are some structural issues that.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
That have have allowed that.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
So bringing in alternatives really can help you to not
have all of your eggs in one basket. And and
that's where something like commodities, especially UH can be huge.
I mean, we've seen the run in gold and silver
as an example over the last couple of years, and
and that's been a huge positive influence for portfolios.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And so not.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
Everything is kind of tied to to the stock market.
And and gold specifically can be you know, considered a
safe haven asset if we look at historical crashes in
the market or or downturns when investors get really nervous,
you know, they look at gold as a safe haven. Again,
it can provide maybe if the if stocks are going down,
(27:59):
andeople are selling and they're looking for something safe. You know,
gold is often a lot of a lot of times
is a place where that money flows through. So really
can what you want to think about with diversification is
the relationships across asset classes and how they move relative
to one another, because the idea of what diversification is
(28:20):
is that no matter what happens in the market, you know,
is what happens to your portfolio, you know. And that's
again where if you are two tied to one asset class,
then you can see that level of polatility.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
And your portfolio really.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Really range quite quite sharply, versus if you have a
more well diversified portfolio that you know, this asset class
might be going down because of X, y Z reason,
but this other asset class is going up right because
the money's kind of flowing from there and here, and
our overall portfolio is not getting hurt too bad.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, it's definitely interest to think about where money is
moving because it's not like it just disappears when it
leaves somewhere, you know, or something goes down. It's always
moving somewhere, which is another thing I wanted because I've
also talked to a lot of people that maybe have
fallen in love with some of their winners, maybe they
have done well with crypto or AI tech, and they
(29:20):
don't want to diversify because this has been so good
for them. But what are your thoughts when it comes
to other you know, and I think that that's just
an interesting topic where people are looking at that now
is how much growth they've seen in certain areas. And
I still think it makes the case for diversification. But
what are your thoughts when some people are maybe thinking
about all of this growth and wondering is this are
(29:42):
we do for a crash? Is this a bubble?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Like?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
What does this mean? So how do you kind of
talk through investors, you know, fears on that end.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean a lot of
what I'm seeing today reminds me of what I saw
back in when.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I first started my career.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
So I started my career in nineteen ninety eight, so
it was right at the end of the tech level
and the first few years that I was trading ninety eight,
ninety nine and into two thousand.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
I mean, we saw a lot of the same things.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
You know, There's been a lot of similarities between Cisco
that kind of built the infrastructure for the internet in Nvidia, right,
and and one of the things that it's it's kind
of maybe I was scarred because I was kind of
went through that period I saw like the just the
(30:34):
enthusiasm and the euphoria around tech at that time and
how it's going to change the world.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And it did. I mean, it was a it was
a breakthrough for.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
US as as humanity and civilization, right, this technology breakthrough.
But that doesn't mean that you know, the NASA didn't
go down. You know, we almost eighty percent over the
coming years after the tech bobbile kind of blew up.
So you know, one of the things I think people
uh tend to forget is that markets moving cycles.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And if you look back.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And I just saw I chart about this yesterday, you know,
for the longest time, GM was was one of the
best stocks in the market, right, and you know then
it's Apple, right, has been over the last couple of
years from now and video has kind of taken that throng.
So at different points in time in market history, you
can have dominant industries or dominant companies.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
But what we've what we've not seen is any one
continue that forever. Right.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It'll it'll, it'll be there for a while, but then
competition comes in or you know, maybe the expectations are
too high and they can't meet them. So I think
that's the thing you have to be really careful about
because like like you were talking about earlier, were talking
about taxes, and I've seen in my career numerous I
(31:56):
can't even count how many times to where I've seen
stocks that have been buid up and they've they've gone
up to super high levels, and then the narrative changes.
People don't sell it because they don't want to pay
the taxes, you know, right, or they're like, oh, it's
going to come back, it's going to come back. It's
a temporide downturn, and then it goes down more, and
then it goes down more, and then it goes down more,
(32:17):
you know, and and then they basically lose all of
the games that they had. So it's it's really difficult
when you I mean, it's great when you've had a
stock that has performed so well, but to your point
to get you know, developed sort of a relationship with
that stock, like you're attached to it. You're like, it's
so good, like and what if it keeps more? And
(32:40):
I think it's a really hard emotional barrier to overcome.
Kind of goes back to the behavioral financing. But I
do I do tell people, don't let you know, taxes
for instance, you know, drive the bus on making this
decision because you know it's better to go ahead and
take the game, pay the taxes on it, and and
(33:01):
we can always reinvest in it later. Like let's say
it comes down down to a more reasonable evaluation, maybe
they still have good prospects. But but don't you know,
ride it all the way up and write it, write
it all the way back down.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
That happens a lot too with people who get you know,
employee stock participation, you know, where they end up having
a lot of stock in their own employer, plus their
paycheck tied up in their employer, and a lot of
everything kind of locked in there. And so you know,
sometimes I'll just ask people if this was cash, would
you put it in your employer stock today? And a
lot of times they're like, no, it's okay. Then we're
(33:35):
going to figure out a strategy when it comes to
your incentive stock options. You're our use all these things
with what we should do because again, like you said,
sometimes you are emotionally attached to the outcome and the
company or the stock and important to kind of try
to separate that piece out and make those decisions accordingly
because like you said, they can have huge tax implications
(33:57):
where you you might you might be afraid to say
not want to sell because now your basis was so
low that the tax you know, the tax inplication is huge,
so super important to kind of always and like you said,
building like that tax planning in with the investment strategy.
They're so correl they're just so intertwined that it is
(34:18):
really important I think for everybody to kind of consider
that with all the decisions they make and kind of
look at it from that lens. But for somebody with
a four one k ira or taxable account, is there
any like quick audit or questions that you'd have for
them to kind of assess if their portfolio is balanced correctly,
anything that they could look at kind of maybe if
(34:39):
they've never thought about it before, take a peek at
it and see if they're in.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
The right place. Yeah, I think. I mean.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
The thing that I've ran across quite a bit lately
is with I mean, as well as the market is
done as an example, what it's done is it's kind
of overweighted stocks relative to bonds or if they have
and quandities or other.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Things in there.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
So what it's literally done is shifted people's asset allocation
much higher than they might want to be, right, And
so I've been I've been trying to reiterate it's important to,
you know, just kind of reassess your risk level, especially
like where you are in your life. And I think
that's something that a lot of people don't really understand,
(35:23):
is that so markets again kind of move in cycles, right, Well,
the market cycle doesn't always align with where you are
in your life.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
So you might be ready to retire.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
Right and and but if you retire and then the
market goes down over like let's say has a rough path,
maybe we go through a recession or even like a consolidation,
and you start taking systematic withdrawals from that. Well, if
the market's going down and you're taking out the withdrawal,
it's kind of a double whamming, right, It's called sequence
(35:58):
of returns risk. So what that will do is even
though the market comes back up later, like after the
tech crash and the market rebounded, right, but what happens,
but those withdrawals make it harder for your portfolio or recover.
So it's really important to kind of think about what
your risk level is and looking at your account and saying, okay,
(36:20):
one like I come out as a balance investor, and
I want to make sure that that I'm balanced. But also,
you know, kind of where the broader market is relative
to that financial plan strategy. So there's a couple of
different things. I think you can try to just kind
of keep monitoring to make sure that your your investments
(36:40):
are aligned with your goals at all times.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, now, I think it is super important to look
at those things. And also sometimes people think they have
diversification because they own different funds or different ETFs with
different names, or maybe they come from different you know, custodians.
But also super important to look at what those underlying
holdings are, the top ten holdings. I've seen a lot
of people who think they have diversification and they own
a lot of funds that own the exact same companies.
(37:07):
So I think that's one way to kind of dig
a little bit deeper. And somebody thought that having it,
you know, the S and P five hundred index fund
from this and then this one was diversification, or the
Schwab and the Fidelity this were different and they really
really kind of was like a suitcase packed with the
same stuff.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
This is a different suitcase.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Yeah, that's that's such a huge point right now in
today's market because one of the things that we actually
are in the most concentrated market we've ever had. You know,
these companies that call them the Magnificent seven, and they've
been phenomenal, right, Apple, Microsoft, you know, those companies have
done so well since the financial crisis of eight or nine.
(37:51):
The challenges is that, you know, they've become such a bigger,
a big part of the S and P five hundred
that the other four ninety three are actually not even
really represented anymore. So really it's what happens with those
companies that's dictating the market. And that's again another kind
(38:11):
of red flag that's out there because we have seen
things like this in the past. It's actually worse than
we've seen in the past because it is the most
concentrated now. But even like I was referencing the tech bubble,
you know, the top ten there, and it wasn't even
all in tech. That's the other issue kind of a
nuance about this time around is they're very related. You know,
(38:32):
they're all kind of around this AI thing, and so
when you have a very concentrated market, like that. It's
great as the market's going up, but then again there's
a lot of embedded volatility, and so that if the
narrative starts to change, and this is kind of what
happened with the tech bubble, you know, the narrative started
to change and it was harder and harder to meet expectations,
(38:53):
and then when people started to sell, it kind of
became self reinforcing. And markets tend to go down three
times faster than they go up because people just start
selling and then that begets more selling, and so.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
It can happen relatively quickly.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
So you have to really be kind of aware in
markets like this that you kind of think you're diversified
to your point, but you know, if all of those
funds are kind of invested in these sane you know,
seven to ten stocks, you know you're really not as
you're not as divers fied as you might think.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
So yeah, no, and I think that that's where you know,
just doing even if it's just getting educated on what
you have or doing a little bit of research, can
be super helpful. If somebody listening is feeling overwhelmed by
investing and taxes in general, where do you recommend that
they start.
Speaker 5 (39:45):
Certainly working with a credential professional like yourself is I
think a great place to start.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Because you know, you have to be really.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
Careful about going to the internet and doing research. There's
there's websites and a lot of people are looking at
TikTok videos to make financial decisions, and I think you
have to be really really careful about that. I think
leaning working with someone who again has an established credential,
(40:15):
helps you to kind of filter out the noise and
they have experience and can help you navigate some of
these things and answer some of those questions.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It's a good point. I do think there is a
lot of tax advice. I think there's a lot of
people asking like can I write off my car? Can
I hire my baby? Can I do And it's like,
you don't own a business, what are you doing? You know,
they're seeing these things that maybe worked for some people,
but they might not be applicable at all to you
and your situation. And those people are getting paid by
(40:44):
views and clicks and likes. That is their goal, not
you know, not necessarily having a regulator. Making sure that
they're giving some financial advice so super important that that's
definitely a good point. And there's a lot of information
out there and it's moving around a lot faster, so
definitely important to kind of, you know, figure out what's
(41:04):
right for you. I think before we used to get
advice from people, you know, holidays at our dinner table
or whatever, but now it's really coming from everywhere, and
so not like any of that advice is necessarily great
for you, But I feel like, you know, working with
somebody who really knows you, your tax situation, your goals
(41:25):
is so so important. How can listeners learn more about
your work and adapt first or connect with you? I
know I found you because of your writing. I loved
your you know, the blogs and things you were putting
out on LinkedIn about the market. I thought it was
super interesting, and you know, that's how we got connected
in the first place years ago. But how can other
people find you these days if they're looking for more?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
I've kind of had to put my writing on pause
a little bit because behind it, you're so busy, so
overwhelming that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I know that's the tough part about writing great content.
It takes a while, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
It really does, and I miss it.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
Honestly, My goal this year is to is to try
to get back to that on a more regular basis.
Just our website www. Dot at first dot com is
a good way to reach me. And and uh yeah,
I'm on LinkedIn, so if you want a message messaging LinkedIn,
(42:23):
I'm happy to.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Respond there as well. I just haven't as active as
I have been.
Speaker 5 (42:28):
In the last couple of years, so yeah, no, that happens,
it works well.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Thank you so much for joining today. I think you
know when I want everybody listening. You know, even if
you don't consider yourself an investor, all of us pay taxes,
all of us have to look out for ourselves and
our own, you know, financial future. No one's coming to
say I think we've all kind of learned that lesson
by now, so very important to really just even if
this is something that intimidates you or it's not something
(42:56):
that feels natural to you, it's really important for everybody
to get get more comfortable. And even listening to a
podcast like this, you're doing the right thing by starting
to just expose yourself to these topics. And I think
that this is really something that anybody can get a
better understanding of if they really just planned a little
bit of time, a little effort, whether finding the right
person to help them or figuring out, you know, some
(43:17):
ways that they can help themselves do a better job
in you know, whatever economy we're in. So if you'd
like to set up some time to work with me
to look at your finances or catch up on old
episodes of the podcast, please head over to missulanch dot com.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode and
talk again next week. Thank you so much for listening,
(43:38):
Thank you for joining us on another insightful episode of
demonst Buying Money. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate,
and leave a review. Stay tuned for more engaging conversations
on our next episode, and remember knowledge is the key
to financial empowerment.
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