Logos & Lawsuits: Can You Own A Letter?

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Do you like logos? Yeah?I like a good logo. I do.
I like a good logo myself.I'm going to tell you to google
something, Okay, google Drake Universitylogo Drake of course in Des Moines.
And I know, I know,I'm getting back into you know, IOWA
a little bit here. It's worthit, trust me. You see the
Drake University logo. Can how doyou describe it the best that you can?

(00:24):
It's just the letter D. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah. But what's the Dlook like? It's like a swoopy D,
right, like a kind of holdon, liked on an article?
Let me there, Yeah, slantedswoopy D looking thing a little bit with
the dog behind it. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's that's like a
primary athletic logo. But much likeother institutions, they have a logo that's

(00:45):
not just that. They have onethat is for their academics, which is
basically the same D. It's justnot as sporty looking. It's just kind
of straight up and down a littlebit skinnier. There's no bulldog. Okay,
right, Well, they have suedDMAC Community or the Des Moines Area
Community College for copyright infringement of ablock D. Now look up the Drake

(01:07):
block D and the only thing thatI know that Drake University uses this dart.
It's literally, ladies and gentlemen,the best that I can tell you
it is a block D. It'slike a blue D that there's nothing to
it. It's just you know,like if I told you to draw like
a block letter D, you'd probablydraw this. Yeah. And then the

(01:30):
dmac D, which was released astheir new logo quietly, I think over
a few months ago. I don'tknow exactly when. I don't pay that
close attention, but it's I mean, they spend a lot of time and
effort to come up with what essentiallyis a block D with the light blue
drop shadow behind it. And Drakehas now sent a sixty page lawsuit against

(01:51):
d MAAC for copy of right infringementof their block D logo. I have
to ask, first of all,what are you seeing what I'm looking at
here these two logos compared? Whatdo you think it is the same D?
But there's a lot of differences too, Yeah, so tell the differences.
Well, there's the the D macD has a lighter blue behind it,

(02:12):
so it kind of pops out alittle drop shadow, Yeah, lighter
blue drop shadow. It's white witha blue background. And the and the
D that I'm seeing for Drake isjust is that that just looks like that's
just a D, just the colorD. But but it's black with white.
Yeah, well I think it's navy. But is navy? Maybe I
need but it doesn't even matter.Okay, Like, did you know you

(02:36):
could copyright a block D? Youknow what I'm saying, Like, yeah,
doesn't that sound kind of insane?Well, the reason I asked this
is, first of all, youknow, I'm not saying that, you
know, we have to care aboutthis all that much, but I don't
even think Drake uses that block Dfor anything except like on like old throwback
sweaters or anything like that. Youknow what I mean? That makes sense,

(02:57):
Like that logo isn't really a primaryuse logo in any way, shape
or form, except when they throwon some old school sweaters or you know,
their letterman jacket or something. Andyou're telling me they have copyright infringement
that they can claim on a blockD anywhere. And obviously, I think
the proximity of this particular community collegemakes a lot of sense they're both in
Des Moines, and Drake doesn't wantanybody to get those d's confused. Don't

(03:23):
you just hate it when the d'sget confused. It can happen, doesn't
usually end well when you get thoseconfused. So I don't know, what
do you think. Do they havea case? Well, they probably well,
they probably wouldn't have brought it ifthey didn't think they did. But
they're a law school. They havea law school in Drake too, so
oh, I'm sure they're talking aboutit in class right now. Yeah,

(03:46):
you know, I don't know thekid. It's actually the students that are,
you know, filing this Now's Imade that up. It's probably the
proximity that is the biggest part ofthis, because they don't want people walking
around the city wherein a d MAACmerch and people thinking it's Drake. I
guess I don't know, but itis pretty similar, but it's it's different

(04:06):
enough that you think they should besafe. It'd be like, h you
know, what's a college in Nebraskathat's not the University of Nebraska system but
has an N in their name.It'd be like if they adopted the red
N but just changed it you know, like a trawler shadow behind it.
Yeah, yeah, just like alittle coloring. But it was obviously the
same red N because that has adistinctive look too. Yeah. Big block,

(04:30):
big block N. Yeah, soit's just a big block letter.
What's that community college in Lincoln?What's what's that one? I don't know,
you think I know? Metropolitan?Is that it mcc he's looking it
up. Oh, well, that'sSoutheast Community College. That's not what I'm
thinking of. I thought there wasone that started with an N in Lincoln.
I think there is. Yeah,but and they just like rip off
the Nebraska in Okay, So Drakepoints to Facebook comments on a DMAC post

(04:56):
which announced their rebrand in February twentytwenty four Obraska Wesleyan University. That's what
I was trying to think of.Anyways, Okay, there you go.
A half dozen users called dmax logovery similar to Drake's. Another one that
said, what a waste of timeand effort and cost to make this change
will look so similar to Drake.Drake's list of allegations culminates in a section
of a lawsuit. They're calling itthe Rotary Incident. The Rotary in the

(05:18):
Rotary incident. Rotary Drake claims atthe Des Moines Rotary Club's annual Holiday event,
which is a meeting where both Drakeand DMAC representatives were present, DMAX
director of Marketing was called to siton Santa's lap. You know what?
He was gifted a book titled TrademarkingCopyright Infringement for Dummies. What is this?

(05:39):
What's happening right now? What isthis? A Santa Claus at the
Rotary Club the holiday event gave likecalled the DMAC director of marketing to sit
on Santa's lap, where Santa gavehim a book that was titled Trademarking Copyright
Infringement for Dummies? What was heundercover? No secret, Santa, I

(06:00):
don't know, but obviously that waslike done in jest, and I'm guessing
that gave Drake like, you knowwhat, maybe we can sue them for
that. Oh you know what Imean? Like everybody thinks that they stole
from us, maybe they actually did, and then they hire lawyers or they
get their own lawyers to look atand say, hey, did you guys
do this? Well? Nobody likesbeing embarrassed at the Rotary Club Christmas party

(06:24):
let me tell you that's where yougo. Mean, that's great. That's
funny though, isn't it. Itcomes sit on saying as lap DMAC person
and then they pull out a giftfor you. That's trademarking, copyright infringement
for dummies. That's funny. Yeah. It might also cost a million to
dollars based on this. They sentDes Moines local news station a statement on

(06:46):
Tuesday. DMAC did and said,both names for our outstanding institutions have always
started with the letter D. Youcan't say DMAC without it. We both
have always had blue as our primarycolor. Drake University simply does not own
the letter D. We have toget you know, Elmo and Big Burden
on the case now to see whoactually owns the letter d. Ah right,
So Drake says they've asked for atemporary injunction placed on DMAC ordering the

(07:12):
school not to use the logo atall until the lawsuit's been resolved. In
core petty or not petty, I'dhave to think more about it, because
it is I mean, it's it'scertainly it's the same font. Yeah,
but it's block. Who we allknow a school that uses just a regular
block letter to to and they usethat as a logo. Also. Secondly,

(07:39):
we all know a high school orfive that have absolutely blatantly ripped off
logos from bigger institutions around the country. Yeah, whether they got God on
it or not, or they didit with permission, there's a lot of
just straight ripping those ideas from otherlarger institutions. You know how many fights

(08:00):
are out there? A lot lessthan there are high schools. High schools
in southeast Iowa, and there's likeseven high schools that use the same fight
song when they score touchdowns. Ibelieve that the York Dukes their fight song
is the Navy song. Yeah,and you know, I grew up in
a Tumbel, Iowa. That wasa weird one. A guy who was
the band director at a Tumbel highschool in the nineteen twenties actually wrote the

(08:20):
fight song they still used to thisday. They have a very unique one.
But I did a lot of workfor Oscaloosa, which is another small
town Iowa school. They use onWisconsin. It's literally on Wisconsin. They
just to replace Wisconsin with Oscaloosa inthe fight song when they sing it or
chant it. Interesting. I wentto college small College. Their fight song
was the Notre Dame fight song.That's a good one, yeah, but

(08:43):
I mean it's obviously Notre Dames fightsong. What are we doing here?
Anyway? If you got thoughts oncopyright infringement in general or branding infringement where
you have examples of schools ripping offother schools logos, would love to hear
from, you can call us afour h two five five eleven ten four
two five five eight eleven ten,News Radio eleven ten KFAB and Maurice Songer

(09:05):
on news Radio eleven ten KFAB.We're taking your thoughts on this. Any
kind of similar situations that you canthink of, and any thoughts on it,
you can call in it. Fourtwo five to five eight eleven ten.
Dave is on the line, Hello, Dave, what do you think
about it? Hey? Well,comes to mind first one is University of
Miami and you and O. Ithink Miami had a problem with UNO's logo

(09:31):
one point. And I know fora fact, being class of seventy seven,
west Side Warrior, Wisconsin and westSide, Wisconsin was feuding with west
Side and it all came to thepoint on the top of the w versus
flat line that's all I got,but I want a special shout out to
the class of seventy five person orgroup that came up with the homecoming slogan

(09:52):
against the Ryan Knights. Once awarrior, always a warrior, but once
the night's enough, I I'm out. All right exists. But okay,
So there's a couple of local examplespotentially did have you know an email here
sent to me by somebody who didn'thave a name on it, but basically
southern Mississippi. There's the Golden Hawks. They had a hawk's head that Iowa,

(10:16):
the University of Iowa apparently fired atthem and it's like, hey,
copyright infringement. So they had tochange their logo. And I don't know
if there was a payout to thator they just had to change it.
But this is another example. Craig'son our phone line four two, five,
five, eight eleven ten. What'sup, Craig. Yeah, as
you mentioned that one school had theNotre Dame fly song. Was there a

(10:37):
real school song? Well, Iwent to years ago when I was a
little kid. Why I grew upand I went to is in Bertrand,
Nebraska, and their flight song waslike the note of day and they went
cheer cheer for old bertrand high.Yeah. No, And that's the thing,
right, It's just like, hey, the work was already done.

(10:58):
All we got to do is changethe words, right, like who's going
to stop? Well it's a minoralteration. It wasn't complete change, but
still, you know, just arhythm and the rest of the words were
pretty much the same. Well,you know what, whatever works, I
guess. And as long as UtterDane doesn't find out about or care that
much, I'm sure they don't care. It's just that everybody knows that song
belongs to them. Greg. Iappreciate the example. Thanks for calling,

(11:22):
my pleasure, have a good oneyou too. John is on our phone
line four two five five eight eleventen. Hello John, Yes, Hello.
I own a tech company and wework with some big brands and there
and sponsor a big, big dealon the Colors Drop show could change your
fonds from being one useful for onelogo and not for another. Quite often

(11:48):
it really whether it's songs or it'ssponts or logos. The first question is
is how well is it defended incourt? And how much money do you
have? Do you want to defendit. When it comes to school songs,
I doubt that that there's a wholelot of people who care about about
that. But there are some bigbrands that if you get anywhere near their

(12:11):
logo in terms or the fonts theyuse or the very specific colors they use.
The University of Nebraska is very verysensitive about making sure that when you're
using red for anything for them,it must be a very very specific scarlet

(12:31):
color as an example, and theend that they have. There's no such
thing as a font called big block. There are. There are thousands of
fonts, and they may look verymuch the same to somebody who who doesn't
know isn't it, isn't an expertin that. But so that's you know,

(12:56):
That's what That's all I have tosay. Yeah, well, John,
interesting to see because obviously we wouldI guess need to like do the
measurements of exactly the dimensions of thed and the way that they know comes
out. But it's interesting that Drakewould even decide to do this against the
school that exists right in next doorto it in the Des Moines area.
Obviously, I don't think they wouldcare if it was anybody far away from

(13:18):
them, but I appreciate the thoughtand thanks for calling in today. The
other John so apparently have more John'son the line. We're going to get
to them in a second, andwe'll get to anybody else who wants to
call in. Tell us about theschools that you use, or you know,
use logos from bigger brands, andwhether or not they got in trouble
for it, or whether or notthey're getting away with it, or whether
or not they worked in tandem withthose brands to make sure that they were

(13:41):
okay on the copyright infringement part ofthat. It's an interesting conversation we're going
to continue to have next on newsradio eleven ten kfab. Emery's songer on
news radio eleven ten kfab as Thiswas happening in August of twenty fourteen,
and basically it said, we're awareof the US Patent Office complet and are
currently engaged in discussions with representatives ofthe Toronto Blue Jays in an effort to

(14:05):
resolve any concerns they may have.And there's literally nothing that updates this story
that I can find anywhere, Soyou know what I mean, My guess
is whatever they talked through at thetime, it seems to have worked,
if that makes sense. You alsosaid something about public domain from a call

(14:26):
before we get back to the phones. Had another caller that mentioned that the
University of Notre Dame and a Universityof Wisconsin both of their fight songs are
public domain at this point. Sothis is why we all know songs or
schools that use those fight songs.Right, Maybe that was strategic by them.
It's like, hey, you knowwhat, this is going to be
great for our brand just to haveall these high schools playing our fight song

(14:46):
around the country. Not yep,yep, yep, yep, you know
what I mean. If you wantto call any can four two, five,
five, eight to eleven ten,John first to John, the John,
Well, he's the second John,but he's on the first line on
number two John, number two onlineone John. If you just heard a
weird noise, you're the guy I'mtalking about. What's on your mind?

(15:07):
Well, I was just mentioning.I don't know where I got in on
this, this particular copyright infringement,but uh, Bretna Gross High School,
the Green Bay Packers, and theGeorgia Bulldogs all have the exact same g
on their helmets. Mm hmm,Okay, so it's the same shape,

(15:28):
it's it's it's identical, right,And I bet there's I'll bet there's others
throughout the United There definitely has tobe did Do you know if that was
if there's anything that came of that, or is like the color change apparently
good enough for them not to getsued because it's weird. I think that
one's probably one of the more commonones, probably all over the country.

(15:52):
Yeah. I don't know if there'sbeen any issues with any of the schools,
but you know, I think it'dbe the Green Bay Packers would have
the first call of infringement on that. And then the other caller mentioned something
about specific colors. Forty five yearsago when I was at Bellevue High School

(16:14):
playing Rye Dell, your number onehelmet maker in the country. You have
to use a specific paint when yourepaint a helmet, otherwise it affects the
plastic and it's not safe to use. And we went our athletic director went
to the Rye Dell rep and wepainted our helmets in the exact same silver

(16:37):
as the Dallas Cowboys. We alsostriped the top of the helmet, which
they don't do now. We hadit was three purple stripes, not blue,
and then two white stripes right nextto the middle. So and that
was the same patterns the Dallas Cowboys, only ours was purple and white instead

(16:59):
of blue. Interesting, so wedid use their silver paint for our helmets.
Very and then the center was thecenter was a B. There was
only one school, so it wasn'tit wasn't the stars a B standing for
Bellevue. Yeah, well a chieftainright in the middle of the B.
The B was proportionate. But Idon't know what the legality is. But

(17:22):
there's a lot of a lot ofGreen Bay Packer copies out there, No
for sure. Hey, John,I appreciate the call. It's good information.
Thanks for the details. I lookedit up. The Packers G was
designed in nineteen sixty one. TheGeorgia G was designed nineteen sixty three.
Apparently they were designed independently of eachother. The Georgia when they realized how

(17:44):
similar it looked, though, theydid receive permission from Green Bay to use
the logo before they unveiled it.The Georgia G. If you measure it
is slightly slimmer and doesn't have thegold border, which keeps it free from
any copyright. And again the packersgave them their blessed saying to use that.
Obviously, I'm wondering in the situationof the nineteen sixties, I'm guessing

(18:07):
people weren't nearly as brand aware asthey are now, so that I don't
think anybody even probably would have thoughtor noticed that. But probably a good
thing that Georgia went out of itsway to ask Green Bay about that.
John number three, who's online tooweirdly enough, is on our line.
John, Thanks for the call.What are you thinking about that? Years

(18:30):
ago, the University of Nebraska hada logo infringement suit against NBC, the
TV network, and I think that'sprobably sometime in the nineteen eighties. Nebraska
prevailed. I think NBC gave thema small settlement just so go away.

(18:56):
Well that good. The shape ofthe inn was identical. Weird, Okay,
yeah, so I again, that'sprobably something that doesn't happen thirty years
before that. I appreciate the call, John. That's another interesting example.
I don't like I'm getting a bunchof emails about Wisconsin in that West Side

(19:17):
High and the w wisconstantly the samething to a central Iowa school which is
called Wakee, and Waque's was ablatant rip off. I mean it was
literally the Wisconsin w same direction,same everything. They just changed the colors
to their school colors. I'm guessingsome of these brands are are you're willing
to kind of like work through it? But I'm not so sure that.

(19:41):
I think a lot of high schoolsjust think that they can change up a
thing or two and nobody will notice. What do you do? You have
a I'll get to you in asecond. Let's get to Jared real quick.
Jared, thanks so much for callingin. What are you thinking about?
Hey out here? I live outin Arlington and for the Eagles out
here, and when I was inelementary, our logo was very similar to

(20:07):
the Anheuser Busch A with the eagleflying out of it. And now they
changed it, I don't know howmany years ago, but it is now
almost identical to the Philadelphia Eagles logo. Rather than green and silver, it
is maroon and gold. Interest youthink that they've asked for that or do

(20:30):
you think that they're just operating andhope that the Eagles don't actually notice.
I highly doubt the Philadelphia Eagles arepaying attention to a small town Harlington,
Nebraska. Yeah, you're probably right. Jared appreciate the call man, Thanks
for listening. What do you think? What do you think about? First
of all, I have two questions. What do you think about minimalism,

(20:52):
like these block d's that were arguingabout that this lawsuit has like coming out
of Central Iowa. What do youthink about the minimalism that we continue to
persist. We talk about the crazylogos of the nineties, how many different
schools kind of went completely out oftheir comfort zone. Iowa State comes to
mind with the burden a Blender logothat they had, Hm. You remember

(21:17):
that one where the cardinal is likea like in a tornado. Essentially a
sweet logo. All the NBA teamsin some of the logos and jerseys that
they were using. And now we'retwo like the most I feel like we've
gone so far the opposite direction whereeverybody's trying to be as minimalist as possible.
What do you think about minimalism asa style? Yeah, well,

(21:38):
I think that you could have both. You don't have if you're going with
just the letter, have just theletter the minimal, you know, but
then have one that is a littlebit more flashy, a little bit more
fun. I think you can doboth. Yeah, well, I mean,
I guess the biggest question that youwould have is in the bigger question
that I have is which is appropriatefor what? Right? And how many

(22:03):
people would dislike something that you gocompletely off the rails that goes against tradition,
right? I think people are afraidof a rebrand altogether in the first
place. Have you heard of thestory of the San Francisco forty nine ers
changing their logo early nineties. Thisis like right at the tail end of
you know, the Montana years,they debuted new helmets and new uniforms that

(22:25):
basically, we're going to change theyou know how it says SF in like
a red circle or oval on agold helmet. Well, it's going to
be a gold helmet. But itwas going to like actually say, forty
nine ers on it. And peoplehated it. Hated it so much they
went back retracted it and said,okay, never mind, and they went
back and stayed the same. Theyhad just adjusted the uniforms as time went

(22:45):
on. I don't know, man, there's something about in a lot of
the NFL teams are kind of revertingback to those classic, you know,
nineteen sixties or seventies looks that theymight have had. I tell you what.
Mineralism has absolutely taken over though.Scott's on the phone line four two,
five, five, eight eleven ten, Scott, you got thoughts on
this? Yeah, I'm from downsouth and Wildcamp Country. An heer Old

(23:08):
Bill Snyder when he came up withthe power Cat. Yeah, uh,
he let anyone or any high school, he let any high school use it
for one dollar. Something about thelegality he had to sell it, but
he didn't want any money for it, so he told it the high school
for a dollar. Yeah. Andyou see a ton of those, right,

(23:29):
Like, there's like two or threedifferent high school I can think about
the top of my head that usesthat logo just in Iowa where I was
growing up. So maybe I wentto I went to a conference out in
Colorado and it was held in agymnasium. Yeah, and two schools had
banners up there. Both had thepower Cat. Yeah, that's crazy.
One one was the Cougars and onewas Panthers. Wow. So they aren't
even the same logo. Yeah,they weren't even the Wildcats. That's crazy,

(23:52):
all right, Scott. That's agood example. Yeah, you too.
What do you think about, Matt, What do you think about we
talk about minimalism, What do youthink about high schools or even small colleges
just ripping off logos? Yeah?I think it's kind of low effort.
But I wonder if it has somethingto do with you know, it's already

(24:14):
been out there, it's already createdthe uh, the print for it has
already made, and so maybe it'scheaper. Yeah, it's feel a lot
easier to like just copy paste andnowadays with technology, you can just fill
in whatever color you want. Yeah. So I don't know. I would
be curious to hear from someone who'sbeen a part of that process of you
know, why do high schools tendto just kind of recycle already used logos

(24:38):
and things like that. Yeah.I grew up in a Tumbel, Eyowa,
that's my hometown, and our logowas a block. Oh, like
if you were told to make ablock, oh, you can make the
a Tumnel logo. And then sometimein the mid aught or maybe around twenty
ten or something like that. Ican't remember. They changed it to where
it was the the block, ohbut the word a tumbel was scrawled in

(25:00):
front of it, kind of inan arch And then now they've changed it
to a very cartoon looking weird dogthing, and I don't even know why.
Like again, it's them trying totake like a chance of stepping it
up into like something that's unique.But I also kind of hate it.
So you know, it's like theminimalist stuff is just like boring, but
at least you're not going to viscerallyhate it. Maybe that's what d mac

(25:22):
and Drake or fighting over here.Three p. Forty nine. We'll keep
this conversation going and we'll get youback on it at a lot more on
the show coming up. Stick Aroundon news Radio eleven ten kfab Emery Sunger
on news Radio eleven ten kfab.I went to high school where bulldogs was
the thing, right, Bulldogs wasthe thing that was my school's mascot,

(25:45):
and I tell you I just didn'tlike it, you know, like I
wish the same thing. You know, the Triple A ball Club in Des
Moines is the Iowa Cubs. TheTriple A ball club. Here is a
storm Chaser, but it used tobe the Royals, right, yeah it
did you know? Isn't the stormChasers like infinitely better? Isn't that like
such a better instead of just likecopying the name of the team that you

(26:07):
know you're a part of. Ittook me a second to warm up to
it, but I think it's verycool and very distinctive. Final whistle blows.
By the way, England officially intothe final of the European Championships for
the second straight time. They lostto Italy in the last one. They
will be playing Spain on Sunday inthe final, and Matt needs Angland to
win to get a box of oatmealcream pies. The world is on oatmeal

(26:29):
cream pie watch. I still needthe box. By the way, I'm
waiting for this. We'll see,we'll see if you if we're just going
to trade boxes anyway. There's somethingabout originality, There's something about you know,
like those like the Rocket City trashpandas right, the Savannah banana is
a Hartford yard goats is another goodone. Yard goats, the Hartford yard

(26:52):
goats, right, the Toledo mudhens. You know, the even the
Delaware Blue Hens that the college theBlue Hens, even if you like Minnesota
Golden Gophers and the Cornhuskers is agood one too, you know what I
mean. I just I like originalityand it just bothers me that there are

(27:15):
so many high schools or even smallcolleges that really just rip off logos from
other teams other schools. But alasyou know, it is what it is,
and you know, the budget isthe budget, and especially if you
find it to be pretty easy tojust copy and paste and change some colors
on it, nobody else will noticeor care. It is what it is.

(27:36):
We're going to go into the fouro'clock hour. I got some really
interesting HOA stories that I want toshare with you, and these are ones
I've been sitting on for a fewdays. Want to tell you about them.
Coming up next to stick around,Emory Songer with you along with Matt
Case on news radio eleven ten kfab