August 24, 2024 • 50 mins
Soil is a vital and valuable natural resource - it's not just dirty ol' dirt. That's why we're celebrating it throughout this episode. Featured shrub: Lo & Behold Pink Micro Chip butterfly bush.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Broadcasting from Studio A. Here at proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs.
It's time for the Gardening Simplified Show with Stacy, Hervella me,
Rick Weist, and our engineer and producer Adrianna Robinson. Well,
when push comes to shovel, the guidance provided by soil
tests to horticultural professionals and gardening enthusiasts is sometimes compared
(00:27):
to well blood tests that physicians give us. And in
this vein see what I did.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I definitely did, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
A soil test is like a blood test for the soil,
and there's primary purposes for doing a soil test, maintaining
proper soil fertility, guiding your plant selections, performing plant problem diagnostics,
and for conforming to industry approved standard practices. Now you
(00:59):
can get your yourself a soil test, and I recommend
personally getting a soil test from a university because they're
affordable and they're going to give you more information than
you ever imagined possible about your soil. It's fascinating to
get a soil test and they're affordable. Stacy, my preference
(01:21):
is to do that and to use your method that
you've taught. All of our listeners and viewers, and that
is to type in soil test semi colon, then cite
dot edu. Correct.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Well, so you do soil tests and then cite site
and then semi colon dot edu.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, and it's perfect. I did that and Penn State University,
Ohio State University, North Carolina State University. My go to
has always been Michigan State University because of where I live.
I did a quick check and a soil test to
get a little cardboard box instructions. Twenty six bucks.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Get affordable, not bad, you know. I think people do
think of soil tests as like, oh, that's something that
very serious gardeners do, and it's just good to have
a soil test. And honestly, if you test your soil,
it's probably good for the lifetime of your garden in
that place. It's not like your soil, you know, is
going to change so much that you're going to need
subsequent soil tests. So it's something that you invest in
(02:19):
once you get the results and you can rely on
them for years to come. And I think another really
important part of the soil test that a lot of
people don't realize if they haven't gotten one, is that
it's not just telling you what you have. It's also
giving you specific results, specific advice on what to fix
if something is wrong or you want to change things.
(02:40):
So it's not like, Okay, now I have these results,
what do I do and you're just you know, left
out in the dark, not knowing what to do with
that information. It will you know if you want to
change your pH it will tell you how much you
know line to apply, it will tell you how much
nitrogen to apply, and so it will give you actionable results,
so you're not just like, Okay, what do I do.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
With this exactly? So sending in your soil is probably
a good idea. By the way, it was interesting I
went to Cornell University site and they were talking about
prohibited areas for transport of soil in the United States.
So if you're in one of those prohibited areas, you
probably would not be able to do this. I think
(03:19):
North Carolina State University does a great job explaining soil
tests for the general gardener, and we'll put the link
there at our website Gardening Simplified on air dot com.
So soil testing, I think right off the bat, Stacey,
we've got to make sure to say that there's a
right way and a wrong way to take soil tests.
(03:40):
You want to be using clean tools. And in addition
to that, you don't want to just take a small
sample from one spot. You're not going to get a
good soil test that way. We're going to take multiple
samples and we're going to put them together. We don't
want to put them in a plastic bag because they
don't want the soil to be wet. As a matter
(04:01):
of fact, they're going to dry the soil when they
test it. That's why generally you're going to get a
folded cardboard box when you order one of these. Then
when you get your soil test back, they're going to
tell you what soil class you're in. Can you dig it? Huh,
Mineral soil low percentage of human matter, mineral, organic soil
medium percentage, and then organic soil high humic matter content
(04:27):
and stacey. There are many reasons to get a soil test,
but I find, by and large, most people get the
soil test to test pH.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, because that is really important information to know. And yeah,
I do think all of the rest of the stuff
is kind of just interesting to know. You know, here
in Michigan and in most of the Midwest, in the
East coast, we are unlikely to develop any kind of
weird nutrient deficiencies in our soil. But if you live
out west, or in Texas or in a more arid climate,
(04:56):
all sorts of crazy things can happen. And so you know,
if you're finding your plants aren't healthy across the board,
you may get a soil test and find out that you're,
you know, lacking your soils, lacking in a very essential nutrient. Again,
not likely in our in our climate, but it does happen,
or maybe too high and a lot of times people
don't realize that having a lot of one nutrient in
(05:19):
the soil is not a good thing because it will
actually impact the plant's ability to uptake other essential nutrients.
High phosphorus, for example, can make it very difficult for
a plant to uptake aluminium or iron. So it's good
to know how all of these things interact. And but yeah,
the pH that's kind of what what you're really hoping
to find, because that will let you know what you
(05:41):
can grow and if you need to fertilize, what type
of fertilizer you're going to use. You know, people tell
me all the time, I'm using Aspoma holly tone on
my hydranges, and we've talked about it on the show before.
You and I both like Ispoma products an awful lot.
Just that's what we use in our own gardens. But
hollytone is an acidifying fertilizer, and I'm always telling people
(06:05):
please don't use holly tone unless you know you need
to acidify your soil, because otherwise you're just needlessly acidifying
it and it can push it to a point where
it becomes unhealthy, you know, through repeated use of other plants.
So it's important to know what fertilizer you should use
on your garden as well.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So Stacy, when you get the soil test back, make
sure to do some analysis but also some research because
there's gonna be stuff on there that you have no
idea what it is. I got my test back there
was something in there called BS percentage. That's the base
saturation percentage of the CC, the cat ition exchange capacity.
(06:44):
These are all things that you're going to have to
research to learn. And by the way, as far as
CEC is concerned, we could get real technical on this,
but the bottom line is I have found that generally
the rates of the CEC are far higher in soils
that have good humid humous content, clay soils, that sort
(07:04):
of thing, and so these are all things you want
to look at. It will give you a reading on sodium,
which may be something of interest for people who live
here in the north, and of course we have the
salt trucks coming by in the winter, all of those
types of things. Nitrogen generally, you're not going to find
much as far as nitrogen is concerned, because it's here today,
(07:26):
gone tomorrow, something we readily apply. Whereas as you were
saying stacee naturally within our soils. The pH is important
because these natural elements are in the soil, like magnesium
or potassium or potash many times naturally in our soils
without having to amend the soils. And then of course
(07:50):
a perk test. Now people will do a perk test
if they're, for example, installing a septic tank or a
drain field, or putting in founds for a large project.
It's overkill for the general homeowner. As a matter of fact,
you can do a simple perk test, and that is
to dig a hole twelve inches deep, fill it with water,
(08:12):
let it drain away. Once you've done that once, then
go back fill it again. Watch the rate of the drainage,
and you're going to because again, Stacy, we've said this
often on the program. Sure, moisture and nutrients are very
important to soils, but so is.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oxygen absolutely just as essential as water and nutrients.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Really exactly so all of those things. Would I encourage
you to get one of these soil tests. Absolutely, I
would get one of these soil tests. You're going to
be well grounded if you do it. You're going to
learn a lot as far as your plants are concerned.
And you know, if we're going to enjoy plants, Stacy,
(08:53):
I've always said, you have to have a sense of humans.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That's you definitely definitely do. And you know, when you
do your soil test and you have that information, you're
able to make a database decision on how you're going
to care for your landscape. And that is so important.
Otherwise you're just guessing, and you could be adding chemicals
to the soil that that just don't need to be there,
that aren't beneficial, wasting your time, wasting your money. So
(09:19):
it's good to make a database decision and the only
way you can do that is a soil test.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And coming up on today's fourth segment, we'll be talking
to Deborah Kannapki. She's a soil expert. We're going to
be talking about restoring soils. That's coming up in our
Branching News segment. But next Stacey's going to give us
plants on trial and we'll see how she ties in
soil tests with plants. That's next here on the Gardening
(09:46):
Simplified Chip.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs cares about your success in
the garden. That's why we trial and test all of
our shrubs for eight to ten years, making sure they
outperform everything else on the market. Look for them and
the distinctive white container at your local garden center. Greetings,
gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show,
where the topic of the day is soil and don't
(10:13):
touch that dial. I know you're like, oh my gosh,
soil is so boring. Why in the world would I
listen to a show about soil? Because I felt that
way when I was in horticulture school and it was
time for my soil science class. I mean, I was
just like, oh, great, soil. Is this going to be fantastic?
You know? And I loved every minute of my soil
(10:36):
science class. It was honestly for me, the moment where
everything just made sense, and I said, you know, this
is why I want to go into horticulture, and I
want to write and I want to help people understand
because it is so crucial and it just it makes
so much more sense when you spend a little time
trying to understand it instead of thinking about, you know,
soil is dirt or just that stuff that's out there.
(11:00):
You know, soil. It is so fascinating. I could go
on no, but I don't have time to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You have to be well grounded. And today we are
partners in grime, so to speak. I like it soiling
the airwaves, so let's do it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So soil in your garden. The reason that the soil
will differ from one place to another is it's all
based on the parent material. So that is the rock
that the soil originally was eroded from. Because all soil,
actual soil in your ground is mineral based. It is
from e roded rock that water and lichens and all
(11:33):
of these different factors have over time built and that's
why it's so precious and why we have to treat
it like it's an asset in our garden and not
just something that happens to be there. And that is
also why if you do a soil test, only do
your actual soil in the ground. Do not include any
(11:53):
potting soil or any potting mix or anything like that,
because the regular standard soil tests that a laboratory will
do will not measure what you need to know in
potting mix whatsoever. There are separate laboratories that will measure
and interpret your your potting mix chemistry. But a soil test,
(12:15):
as we have described it so far is strictly for
actual native soil in the ground that was weathered from rock.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I always tell people root for the loan team.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh I like that, Yeah, and it.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Helps you remember to do just that.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yes, and so loam like, that's a whole other thing. Basically,
a loam is a soil that has roughly equal parts
of sand, silt, and clay. I do not have a loam.
Do you have a loan?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I do not have a loan. I have beach sand.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Give me a loam.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I also had a buffalo roam. Almost all beach sand.
I mean where I live was a dune. Where you
live used to be a dune, and so, yeah, our
soils tend to just be sandy, and so a loam
is kind of like a a dream. It's it's a
it's a an ideal, an ideal that exists in very
few places. So you know, don't feel bad if you
(13:07):
don't have a loam. I don't have a loam, and
I make it work. I love my sandy soil. So
easy to weed, so easy to work, and you never
really get that dirty when you're working in it.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Did you ever do the ball jar test where you
measure the sand silk clay.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I did in my soil science class.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, So you can just take some soil, put it
in a ball jar with water, put a drop of
soap in it. That will destroy the soil bonds, and
you shake it all up and then all of the
different elements of your soil will segment out and you
can actually calculate. Yeah, it's very cool. It's a very
cool thing to do. So if your kids are still
on vacation and you're looking for something interesting to do,
(13:42):
look it up. Get the full instructions. But Anyway, I
was talking about ideals, and I think in gardening there's
a lot of ideals that we put out there, and
one of those is well drained soil.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Ah, yes, yes, moist, well drained.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Soil, moist, well drain so well. And you know then
people are like, well, is it moist or is it
well drained? Well soil can be moist and well drained
because the moist part actually applies to the soil particles
themselves that they are capable of holding onto water. So
usually what that means is Azrik was saying, good humic acid,
a lot of organic matter in there, and then the
(14:20):
well drained part actually applies to the holes or to
the spaces in between those soil particles, and that's how
you can have a moist but well drained soil. The
particles stay moist, but there's plenty of air spaces in
there for the plant to be able to get that
crucial crucial oxygen for the roots. And you know this
(14:43):
is I mean, I write our plant tags, so I
can't even begin to tell you, through the course of
my career how many times I have written well drained
soil or said well drained soil. It is a lot,
but it is so crucial because, like we said, oxygen
is imperative for plants, and some plants are better able
to deal with poor drainage than others. So this is
(15:05):
one of those directives on the plant tag that you
really want to look at because if it says it
needs well drained soil and you don't have well drained soil,
that plant is not going to thrive. So today's plan
on trial is one that well drained soil is absolutely imperative.
Don't even think about growing this plant if you don't
have well drained soil and it is Lo and Behold
(15:28):
pink microchip butterfly bush.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I love that plant, especially along borders. It's a great plant.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It is a great plant. It is also one of
the smallest, if not the smallest butterfly bush on the market,
reaching just eighteen to twenty four inches tall, so a
foot and a half to two feet tall and wide,
so it's like a little pincushion of a plant practically,
and it also fun fact for being such a small
plant is one of our longest plant names. Low and
Behold Pink microchip butterflies, so you can ask our designer
(15:58):
about that. How she tries to fit that out tags.
But anyway, I wanted to pick this plant in specific
when we're talking about soil and well drained soil, because
well drained soil is important to all butterfly bush. But
when you have a very small butterfly bush like lo
and Behold pink microchip, having that well drained soil is
even more crucial because since it is so small, any
(16:20):
damage that occurs from a less than ideal site is
going to be much more concentrated on that little, tiny
plant than if you get you know, a big you know,
say miss Molly four to five foot tall butterfly bush.
So it's really really important if you want to grow
this that your soil is well drained, that you do
that test that Rick was just talking about, the home
(16:43):
perk test, yep. And so the great thing about the
perk test is you can you might want to do
this before you head to the garden center. But if
you happen to just get too caught up in the
moment and you bring home a plant that says well
drained soil and you need to check, and usually you know,
I mean, honestly, I think most people know if they
have well drained soil or not, because like, if you
go out after a rain, are you squishing and slashing
(17:03):
around or is it just kind of wet in my garden?
It is you can barely even tell it rained except
that the rain is still clinging to the foliage. So
most of us do have some idea, but I think
it does get confusing for people with clay soil, because
not all clay soils are going to be poorly drained.
You can have a soil that is fairly well drained
(17:25):
even if you have clay. So those are the people
who are really going to want to pay attention to
this perk test and do it before you go out.
But the cool thing is if you do this perk test,
you can actually use that hold to plant in. It's
like pre doing the work for yourself, you know, And
so it's not a waste. And it's also very interesting
to just watch in general, and you know, you know
(17:48):
again what you're dealing with.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I think your point is well taken, Stacy, as far
as the perk test and drainage is concerned. I have
a miss molly in a low area and a mishot
violence in a high area, and the miss violet is
doing better than Miss one one. Interesting, so I think
it's important.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It is important, and I do want to say to
those who find out that they do not have good drainage,
that you are not without options to grow a butterfly bush.
You can actually grow this butterfly bush in a container.
And we do hear from a lot of people who
want to grow butterfly bush, whether it's low and behold
pink microchip, today's plant on trial, or a different one
(18:26):
that you know, they want to grow them, so they
grow in containers and it is absolutely possible. Now if
you lone beehold pink microchip is about hardy to USDA
Zone five heat tllerant through USDA Zone nine, So if
you are colder than zone five, you can grow it
as an annual. Just enjoy it for the season, let
it go at the end. And the cool thing about
butterfly bush is that they flower so much that it's
(18:49):
almost like, you know, as if you were growing like
a mandavilla or a hibiscus or something a tropical plant
that you would normally just let go at the end
of the season because they're just going to flower for
you all summer long. Now, if you live in zone five.
You can either transplant it into the ground or you
can attempt to overwinter it in the container. Now, if
you are in that camp, you're going to want to
(19:12):
choose a weather proof container, one that can stay outdoors
all year round without breaking or cracking or flaking. And
you're going to this is really crucial, want to choose
a container that is roughly as deep as it is wide.
So you don't want to choose one of those I
see these all the time. They seem like they're really
popular right now, super narrow and tall containers. That would
(19:33):
be the worst thing because basically what that is going
to do is create a huge volume of soil. It's
always wet and the roots never grow into it, and
that is basically creating a poor drainage situation because that
soil will stay out and you can grow plenty of
other things in there, but definitely not butterfly bush. So
choose something that's about proportional, or if you have a low,
(19:54):
kind of more bowl light container that can work as well.
Your goal is to minimize just the soil sitting around
the roots to hold on to that moisture.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Good.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Oh yes, of course, got to have a drainage hole
at the bottom, so it's it's a simple thing to do,
and it's a great way to be able to enjoy
low and behold pink microchip if your soil conditions don't
comply with your dreams. And we've all been there, so
I feel you. So I didn't talk a lot about
what lo and behold pink microchip. Butterfly bush looks like
hopefully it is right there in the name pink flowers.
(20:27):
But you can find out all that information on our
show notes at Gardeningsimplified on air dot com, and we'll
also link you to some shrubs and container information there
so you can take all of this and whether you
have well drained soil or not, put a butterfly bush
into your life. We're gonna take a little break when
we come back, we're opening up the garden mail bag,
so please stay tuned. At proven Winter's Color Choice, we've
(20:55):
got a shrub for every taste and every space. Whether
you're looking for an easycare and unforgettable hydrangea or something
new and unique, you can be confident that the shrubs
and the white containers have been trialed and tested for
your success. Look for them at your local garden center.
Greeting's gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show,
(21:15):
where it's time for us to help you solve your
garden problems the best that we can long distance, and
you know, when you send a picture that makes it
a lot easier. But we really do want to help you,
especially I know as people come into fall and think
about do I cut this back? What do I do
about this? This happened? You know, people end up with
a lot of questions, and if you are in your
(21:36):
garden confronted with a question, as always my advice is
do nothing until you get the right answer. So when
in doubt, don't do it. Just ask us a question.
You can also reach us on the Proven Winner's website
and ask us questions. We will get you an answer,
but don't do something that you will regret. And also,
(21:56):
if you happen to see something, you know a little
whacky going on in your garden, you might want to
reach out to us and say, hey, Stacey and Rick,
do you know what's going on? We had a listener
send us a very freaky looking echinaesia.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, if you're watching on YouTube right now, or you
want to go to our website Gardening Simplified on air
dot Com. We'll put it in the show notes. Boy,
just a echinationa with a double flower back to back.
And it seems to me stacy like, I see this
type of funny stuff go on with echinations or plants
(22:29):
that are in the astor family, and I think it's
a good example of how a bloom on a plant
is determinate. In other words, the plant is in essence
setting a terminal bud and then there's some real freaky,
funky kind of stuff that can happen there.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Anything can happen. Yeah, And so what is happening to
this echinasa is a phenomenon called faciation, and that is
FA S C I A T I O N. And
basically the easiest way to think of it is it
is a condition that makes plants grow flat and contorted,
(23:08):
and it can look like a lot of different things.
If you look it up online you will see all
sorts of various permutations of fasciation. Fasciation can be caused
by hormones, genetics, bacteria, fungus, virus, or environmental issues.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Wow, that's why I have a fasciation with this subject.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So there are so many factors that can contribute to
this and the asterac you said, A lot of these
do seem to happen to the daisy family. You see
it happen a lot with dandelions are particularly susceptible, So
it's not necessarily a cause for concern. I know people
probably hear bacteria, fungus virus and think, oh, geez, I
got to do something, But it's just something that happens.
(23:49):
It's a random mutation. It's not usually harmful to the plant,
and very often plants can live for decades, even centuries.
There are soorro cactus down in the Tucson area that
have developed fasciation. It's the crested kind of growth that
have absolutely been alive for hundreds of years, So it's
not necessarily that it's going to cripple the plant. The
(24:11):
other thing I want to say about fasciation before we
move on, is that it's one of those things that
if you look at the picture of this echinaesia, you
might say, WHOA, that's so crazy. I've never seen anything
like that. But once you know what fasciation is, you
will actually start to notice it in a lot of
different plants. And sometimes it could be, you know, just
a small part of a tree, just like a branch or.
(24:32):
So it can happen to roses, it can happen to
all sorts of weeds, willows. There's just a huge number
of plants that are susceptible to it. So it's one
of those things that you just have to, I don't know,
consider yourself lucky. Maybe go out and buy a lottery
ticket and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
You know, but particularly with flowering plants or with flowers,
because we look at the plant and we go, beautiful flower.
The plant views that determinate end on that stem as
it's reproduct depart, and that's where, Yes, sometimes these genetics,
whatever it may be, becomes kind of fun to watch.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yes, it can be very interesting, and it will take
many different forms. So look it up if you're interested.
Just one of the many crazy things that plants do
that we can enjoy as gardeners.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Netta writes to us, I help my sister's family with
their garden. I love it. She asked about these irises.
I told her they were irises, But in four to
five years since she's transplanted them, they've never bloomed. She
likes the foliage even without the flowers. But do you
have ideas on why they're not blooming five to six
hours of sun in Connecticut. Any advice? Love your show
(25:41):
and Stacy, I would say the timing on this question
is fabulous.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes it is. Indeed, thank you Netta for your question.
So obviously they're getting enough sun. The issue is that
they are planted too deep So after your sister transplanted them,
those rhizomes got buried too deeply and they just don't bloom.
This also happens with pe andes. If you plant them,
transplant them and plant them too deeply, they will not flower.
(26:07):
So very simple solution here, especially as we're coming into fall.
Just dig them up and replant them, but put them
so that those big rhizomes are more like at the
soil surface. You know, if you if you can go
to a public garden or something like that and see
the irises, you'll notice that you very often can see
(26:27):
almost the entire rhizome above the ground and the plant
will just do that naturally. So I dig these out,
move them up so that those rhizomes are just barely
covered with soil because rain and so forth will take
care of the rest and you should be back to
blooming this spring.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I would hope yeah, and Stacy, if they're too crowded, divide.
That's why I say this. The timing on this question
is great. Generally divide and do that work on iris
about eight weeks after they've bloomed. So usually, at least
here in Michigan, we tend to do that work in
August September. So I would say in Connecticut, your timing
is good.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yep, So put it on the list next time you're
rich your sisters and you're going to be an Irish
superhero to her and her family.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Barbara has a great question. I have some questions about
mulching and the use of mulch when gardening. Initially, when
I was starting my gardens, I did use mulch each spring,
But now I have not been using mulch at all.
I've planted a lot of groundcover that's taking over the
foundation of my gardens. Mulch is another expense, and I
thought groundcover I could avoided using the mulch and the expense.
(27:32):
What's your recommendation to mulching when you've established a groundcover
or would you like to and should I mulch each
fall or every other year, and that's from Barbara.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, so Barbara, that is a great question, and mulching
is not essential. We do recommend it frequently, especially if
you have planted something new, and especially if you planted
like a new tree, shrub or perennial. Putting down a
good two to three inch layer of mulch is going
to create ideal root growth conditions so the plant will
get established quickly. But if you don't need mulch, you
(28:05):
do not have to use it. And it sounds to
me like your groundcover has filled in, so it's doing
a lot of what the mult would do. It's keeping
down weeds, it's helping to conserve soil moisture, and as
long as you're happy with a look, I would not
not just avoid the expense but the pain of trying
to apply mulch in between all those fine groundcovers, which
(28:28):
is not a fun job.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Thank you very mulch.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yes she did say that, by the way, Yes, thank
you mulch.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
So I like that.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
We need more. Shout barbar out for that.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Jill writes to us about four years ago, I planted
a candy crush Hibiscus loved it so much. Ordered another
two questions, Why is one so much bigger than the other.
They're both beautiful, but the OCD in me is kind
of bug that they aren't the same size. We've talked
about that before. Great question, Jill. Also, they are in
(28:58):
a planter that surrounds the deck and I love them there.
But are the root systems outgrowing the eighteen inch wide plant? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And Jill did add that she is in Utah and
we have pictures of Jill's garden where she's sending us
the pictures of the candy crush Hibiscus, which you can
see on YouTube or at Gardening Simplified on air dot com.
It's a lovely space and I think the candy crush
was a perfect choice. So why is the first one
so much bigger? She does mention that the second one,
the smaller one, is the second one that she planted,
(29:27):
and so yeah, that is simply a matter of the
plant's maturity. You know, the other one has at least
a full year on that. And you know hibiscus, the
summerfic hibiscus, they have such a big, dense root system,
almost like the irises or they've got big kind of
tuberous roots, and the more of those that the plant has,
the more resources it has to grow stems and to
(29:50):
put on height. So this is really just a matter
of patients just need to let that second plant have
some time to get its root system as large as
the and of course the other one will always have
a little bit of a head start. But I would
say by the time the second one has been in
the ground three years, you're not really going to be
able to notice a difference because at that point they'll
both have just kind of reached a similar maxed out
(30:12):
point of their root system, and so they'll look a
lot similar. So a little patients there.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Now.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
When I looked at Jill's pictures, I did not see
any problem with that planter size. I have found overall
that hibiscus are a bit self regulating. If they don't
have the space to keep growing their roots in, they
kind of just don't.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
They're tough guys, and as Laura Robles said to us
in our show last week, they can handle either wet
soil or dry soil. So the plant I think will
be able to adjust. I don't think i'd go any
smaller than eighteen inches as far as the container isered.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, yeah, so it's not even really container. It's like
a brick patio edging kind of thing, and you know
they'll go deep. I think that you won't have to
worry about it. And one thing that you can do
with hibiscus if they do start kind of going out
to where you don't want them in springs might sound
very cruel to some people, but in spring, when the
(31:11):
buds finally start to emerge from those roots, just knock
them out. If you just knock out that bud or
a couple of buds going in a direction that you
don't want them to go, they will stop growing. So
you don't have to worry about it going too far
over towards your deck or interfering with people walking by.
It's a very simple solution, doesn't hurt the plant, it
(31:31):
will just put that energy into other stems. So lots
of options for control and those candy crush hibiscus one
of my favorite of the summer Fixed series, looking absolutely gorgeous.
So thank you all so much for your questions. If
you have a question, you can reach us at Gardeningsimplified
on air dot com. We're going to take a break
when we come back. We've got a guest, so please
stay tuned. The Gardening Simplified Show is brought to you
(31:57):
by proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs. Award winning flowering shrubs
and evergreens have been trialed and tested for your success
so you enjoy more beauty and less work. Look for
Proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs and the distinctive white container
at your local garden center.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Welcome back to The Gardening Simplified Show. Today, we've been
talking about soil tests and soil and we're going to
continue that theme here in our branching news segment. We're
going to talk soil health with author, writer, teacher, coach, designer, horticulturist, herbalist,
community servant. I know I can go on and on,
(32:37):
and by the way, if you ever want the most
delicious pecan cranberry whole wheat bread right out of the oven,
she's the lady to talk to. Deborah Kannapke. The website
is Deborah Theegardensage dot com. Deborah, thanks so much for
joining us on the show today.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Oh it's a pleasure, and I'm really impressed with all
the adjectives you found.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Well, thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. And by
the way, I do follow you in social media. Your
posts are always very, very interesting. As a matter of fact,
I noticed this past week you can tell us how
to fix a broken tomato?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Well are you? Are you?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
That was Maggie's post. I've known Maggie for years. Meggie fucko.
And she's up on the Great Lake. Well, she's in
Ohio and she's up in I think she's still in
Lake County, Okay. And she is a home she is
at farmer's markets and whatever, and she just puts on
the greatest posts and her lavender field is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah.
(33:50):
I shared her posts.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And Deborah Adriana is looking at me inquisitively. The answer is,
how do you fix a broken tomato? You use tomato paste.
It was a post, yes, of course, definitely social media.
But we're here to talk about soil. And you sent
me something, Deborah that I thought was really great. It
was a quote that said, we abuse land because we
(34:12):
regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we
see land as a community to which we belong, we
may begin to use it with love and respect. This
is kind of akin to talking about our subject matter
today as opposed to calling it dirt, calling it soil.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Right, absolutely, and you just used probably It's one of
my top five quotes, and I try to work it
in anytime I'm talking about garden and soil health and
the earth because this quote from all the Leopold, which
is in the forward of the Sand County Almanac, it
(34:55):
was necessary or required reading for my students when I
taught it Columbus State. And then also he wrote the
Land Epic which supports this quote, and it is it
is so important to understand this. A lot of times
we do treat soil like dirt.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's important EarthCare, people care, and fair share.
So let's talk a moment. You know, I know you
have a lot of interest, Deborah, in regenerative agriculture or
regenerative horticulture or regenerating soil. How did you get into this?
(35:36):
What's been your inspiration?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
So I became or I worked my way towards being
an organic gardener in the mid eighties, after having one
of those epiphanies, you know, I was about to spray
my roses. I had a one year old daughter and
suddenly I thought, what if she puts her touches this
and puts her finger in her mouth. And then I
(36:02):
started looking at well, if I'm thinking about her, who
else should I be thinking about? And I started seeing.
I started seeing bees and other insects and birds in
my gardens, and I realized that I was not only
the caretaker of these pretty flowers that I put in
(36:23):
my gardens, but I was a caretaker or a steward
of the earth. And from there it grew. Even in
my own research at Ohio State, from my master's thesis,
I refused to use pesticides on my plants and herbicides
in my field to keep down weeds. Instead, I did
(36:44):
the old fashioned pilling and hoeing in between my rose
to keep weeds down in hand pulling because it was
important for me to honor the earth as well as
honoring the plants that I was growing.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You know, Devora, I think everything you just said is
so important to understanding why it matters to get people
to plant one thing. You know, there's so much you know,
desire for purity out there, and oh, if you're not
doing things this organic or this native, you know that
that it's not worth doing and you shouldn't even try.
(37:22):
And I think that for so many people. Certainly it
was the same for me, having that just maybe starting
out as a more conventional gardener. You're only going to
have that epiphany if you are out there in the
first place. Otherwise, you know, it's just people telling you
this and telling you that, and you really need to
have that moment that you had to start having a
(37:43):
real change, not just in what you do, but in
the way that you.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Think absolutely and it and you know it's slow, it
doesn't happen overnight. And then you do something and then
you say, gee, do I want to continue doing that?
And for me, it just built, so it builds slowly.
And then I've read so many people, of course, you know,
(38:09):
Rachel Carson and Gretel Erlik and Terry Tempest Williams and
John Muir and I could go on and on, and
I've read so many of these environmental authors. And once
you get into that, you realize that it's not just
about me, you know, it's about all definitely, Yeah, and
(38:33):
that's huge, and it doesn't but it doesn't have to be.
I mean, we think, do no harm. I mean, that's
a great place to start, but then sometimes it's not
that there's a best practice, or even a good practice,
it's the least worst practice.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah, And we're not perfect. I'm not looking for perfections.
I'm looking for what's reasonable and what works well.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I'm glad we're not looking for perfection because I'm about
to admit something. I'm feeling guilty. So we're talking about
regenerative agriculture, regenerative horticulture. So I'm going to share with
you something I feel guilty about, and then something that
I learned. So Deborah, first, the guilt, let me get
it off my chest. I'm a tiller. I like to till.
(39:25):
I like to dig until. I like to grind up leaves,
till it into the soil, ad organic matter, the whole
concept of minimizing soil disturbance. I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
I struggle with that, and you know a lot of
people do, because it is in our our nature. You know,
we've we've learned. You plow up the field, you pow
up the vegetable garden, and and we but we have
found and you know, our knowledge changes over time. It's
not like knowledge or science stay static. All this criticism
(40:00):
of science, you know, and oh science didn't get it
right the first time. Well, of course it didn't. You know.
That's that is us learning, and that is us figuring
out more things. Science is a way to test our theories.
That's why it's called a hypothesis. Sure, now you know
it's not Oh this is a basic truth, and there
(40:23):
are basic truths, but there aren't absolutes. I think in
most things you can't say you're totally done because then
something else comes up and you learn something new. So
when you till just to use that example, oh, maybe
I should let you tell me what you've learned before
I go into mind.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, I've learned. First of all, I've learned you know,
I'm going to be turning sixty five years old this year,
and I've learned that I'm an experienced failure. And that's
been very beneficial to me, because when you make mistakes,
you learn learned from them far better than from reading
a book or having somebody tell you to what to do.
(41:06):
But I think as far as minimizing soil disturbance is concerned,
is it's a good reminder for people like me. As
you say, Deborah, that that when you're dealing with soil,
it's a complex biological community, and we have to recognize that.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So with pilling, and it is hard because there's something
about that earth smell when you do, it's fantastic, amazing,
and so we want that. And you know, I think
when I was on last time, I even mentioned this before,
but my obacterian vace is a little bacteria that enhances
(41:49):
serotonin production in your body, and that's what you're breathing
in when you're killing the soil, so you're feeling good.
You know, it's a boost. But we also found that
when we disturb the soil and when we break up
all those pets, you know, the aggregates of soil, when
(42:09):
we break them up, we break up that glue, We
break up all that fungi that's in the soil and
the bacterial communities, and it takes year, two years, three years,
depending on what type of soil and how healthy it
was to begin with, to come back from that. So
it's kind of an interesting push pull on this whole
(42:35):
tilling question. But I know I have friends that say
I'm going to fill so the day I die, well
for it.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
It makes me feel grounded. You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Just oh, is that another fund?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, it is. It is but you know, in answer
to your question, what have I learned? One of the
things that I've learned is that covering the soil is important,
that the proper use of mold, which can be a
good thing. And I often tell people that in nature,
obviously these plants aren't mulch, but they use a form
(43:09):
of natural mult whether it be sticks, leaves, whatever falls
off the trees, they share that bounty. In essence, the
soil is.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Covered, right, and that's the whole thing. You know, we're
crazy about raking our leaves in the fall. And that
was another epiphany I had. We are hikers and I'm
out there at one of our local parks with the
kids who aren't in the trees, and I'm looking around
(43:39):
and I see all the leaves and I think, huh,
nobody rakes the leaves here? Why am I raking the
leaves out of my gardens and under my trees? And
if you ever visit here in Columbus, you'll see my
woodland path in the front yard. That is all my
leaves for my trees. I put them there and there
they stay, and they don't go into the backyard or
(44:02):
into black plastic bags to go away. But they stay
right here on my property, and that's covering the soil.
And I have an area in my front front yard
that is so rich that unless we're in deep drought,
I can dig with it in my hands, with my hands.
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
It's it's it's great news for all the people who
feel like gardening is too much work, because what this
change in knowledge and perspective is giving us is permission
to do less, to enjoy more, and to not treat
our gardens as you know, sterile, spick and span kind
(44:41):
of places that need to be clean quote unquote yeah,
that they should be messy, and that we can emulate
nature in our yards. And as we do that, and
our neighbors maybe look at us askance that we see
that as a as an opportunity to tell them what
we're doing and explain that in a way that starts
(45:04):
to educate and spread the word.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I totally agree. My gardens have become messy messier over time,
if you you know, and I do use that term
because that's how some people perceive, especially my back gardens,
they have become quite messy, quite you know, the plants
are determining who's growing where because I don't have the time.
(45:29):
You know, you mentioned an age thing just a moment ago,
and I am getting older too, and there's only so
much I can do in the gardens before I say okay,
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, And you know, Stacy mentioned neighbors looking at you.
What was the word you used, A.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Scans, I said, a scance.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I like that word. My neighbors do that to me, Deborah.
They they view me as they call me Planta Claus.
And the reason for that is in October, November, December,
I'm walking around with bags collecting maple leaves from neighbor's
yards and using them in my garden. So they call
me plant a clause. But yes, to a degree, they
(46:09):
do look a scance, Deborah. I wanted to ask you,
in reading some of your materials, you are a proponent
of integrating animal manures. Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I am, because one of the points of regenerative agriculture,
regenerative horticulture is to integrate live stock. Well, it's a
little bit harder in a garden. So for me in
regenerative court, I say integrate animal manures because they have
all these organisms in it that's supercharged the soil, do.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Deer droppings count.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yes they do. I love it because, in fact, this
year I have had several bucks in my backyard and
I was used to the deer droppings of does and fonds,
and I thought these too huge. I mean wow, And
I said, okay, I don't have a bear in my backyard.
(47:10):
Do you want? And I know, I know I didn't,
but this was these were amazing. And someone said no,
that you would just have a couple of healthy books
bucks in your backyard. And so I just kick it
into the soil and say, okay, there we are.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Wow, bonjour manure.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
That's right. And I'm just I'm really pleased. I just
wish they'd put it directly in the garden. They don't
have to kick it out of my pathway.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I feel that, Yes, Buss.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
A quick question for you, Deborah before we we let
you go. Are you in agreement that soil tests are
a good idea? Is it a good idea for the
general homeowner to get a soil test?
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I always tell people to get a soil test, especially
if the plants aren't growing as well as it looks
like they should. I know that's kind of a roundabout
way of saying it, but if you move into a
new house, or are unsure of what's going on in
an area of your garden. One of the best things
(48:18):
you can do is look at a soil test. Look
at your pH look at your nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium levels,
and most importantly, your organic organic matter percentage. So many
of our soils have been degraded and there isn't a
lot of organic matter, and without organic matter, your plants
(48:42):
aren't going to grow well. So Yes, I hooleheartedly back
the use of soil tests. And they did not tell
me to say this before. I just want to put
that out there. It's something that I recommend to my
clients definitely.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Like I mentioned, Deborah is an author, a writer, a teacher,
a coach, a designer. I'm just amazed at what you do,
and I do call you a community servant. You are
involved in the community, Deborah, and I appreciate everything you
do for our industry but also for the community in general,
because we all love plants. They are a part of us,
(49:21):
they are a lifestyle. I invite people to visit Deborah's
website It's Deborah, That's deeb r a deborahthegardensage dot Com
and Deborah. Always a joy to have you on the
Gardening Simplified Show.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Thank you, it's a joy to be here.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
See we told you soil would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah. Yeah, you know Billy Madison. What movie was Billy?
It was Adam Sandler. He would say, chlorophyll, boraphil. There's
nothing boring about it.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
He said that, he said, well, I never Well, that
was a very interesting conversation. So we want to thank
Deborah and I thank you Rick, I you Adriana, and
of course we thank all of you for tuning in.
We hope you have a wonderful week ahead.
Broadcasting from Studio A. Here at proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs.
It's time for the Gardening Simplified Show with Stacy, Hervella me,
Rick Weist, and our engineer and producer Adrianna Robinson. Well,
when push comes to shovel, the guidance provided by soil
tests to horticultural professionals and gardening enthusiasts is sometimes compared
(00:27):
to well blood tests that physicians give us. And in
this vein see what I did.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I definitely did, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
A soil test is like a blood test for the soil,
and there's primary purposes for doing a soil test, maintaining
proper soil fertility, guiding your plant selections, performing plant problem diagnostics,
and for conforming to industry approved standard practices. Now you
(00:59):
can get your yourself a soil test, and I recommend
personally getting a soil test from a university because they're
affordable and they're going to give you more information than
you ever imagined possible about your soil. It's fascinating to
get a soil test and they're affordable. Stacy, my preference
(01:21):
is to do that and to use your method that
you've taught. All of our listeners and viewers, and that
is to type in soil test semi colon, then cite
dot edu. Correct.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Well, so you do soil tests and then cite site
and then semi colon dot edu.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, and it's perfect. I did that and Penn State University,
Ohio State University, North Carolina State University. My go to
has always been Michigan State University because of where I live.
I did a quick check and a soil test to
get a little cardboard box instructions. Twenty six bucks.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Get affordable, not bad, you know. I think people do
think of soil tests as like, oh, that's something that
very serious gardeners do, and it's just good to have
a soil test. And honestly, if you test your soil,
it's probably good for the lifetime of your garden in
that place. It's not like your soil, you know, is
going to change so much that you're going to need
subsequent soil tests. So it's something that you invest in
(02:19):
once you get the results and you can rely on
them for years to come. And I think another really
important part of the soil test that a lot of
people don't realize if they haven't gotten one, is that
it's not just telling you what you have. It's also
giving you specific results, specific advice on what to fix
if something is wrong or you want to change things.
(02:40):
So it's not like, Okay, now I have these results,
what do I do and you're just you know, left
out in the dark, not knowing what to do with
that information. It will you know if you want to
change your pH it will tell you how much you
know line to apply, it will tell you how much
nitrogen to apply, and so it will give you actionable results,
so you're not just like, Okay, what do I do.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
With this exactly? So sending in your soil is probably
a good idea. By the way, it was interesting I
went to Cornell University site and they were talking about
prohibited areas for transport of soil in the United States.
So if you're in one of those prohibited areas, you
probably would not be able to do this. I think
(03:19):
North Carolina State University does a great job explaining soil
tests for the general gardener, and we'll put the link
there at our website Gardening Simplified on air dot com.
So soil testing, I think right off the bat, Stacey,
we've got to make sure to say that there's a
right way and a wrong way to take soil tests.
(03:40):
You want to be using clean tools. And in addition
to that, you don't want to just take a small
sample from one spot. You're not going to get a
good soil test that way. We're going to take multiple
samples and we're going to put them together. We don't
want to put them in a plastic bag because they
don't want the soil to be wet. As a matter
(04:01):
of fact, they're going to dry the soil when they
test it. That's why generally you're going to get a
folded cardboard box when you order one of these. Then
when you get your soil test back, they're going to
tell you what soil class you're in. Can you dig it? Huh,
Mineral soil low percentage of human matter, mineral, organic soil
medium percentage, and then organic soil high humic matter content
(04:27):
and stacey. There are many reasons to get a soil test,
but I find, by and large, most people get the
soil test to test pH.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, because that is really important information to know. And yeah,
I do think all of the rest of the stuff
is kind of just interesting to know. You know, here
in Michigan and in most of the Midwest, in the
East coast, we are unlikely to develop any kind of
weird nutrient deficiencies in our soil. But if you live
out west, or in Texas or in a more arid climate,
(04:56):
all sorts of crazy things can happen. And so you know,
if you're finding your plants aren't healthy across the board,
you may get a soil test and find out that you're,
you know, lacking your soils, lacking in a very essential nutrient. Again,
not likely in our in our climate, but it does happen,
or maybe too high and a lot of times people
don't realize that having a lot of one nutrient in
(05:19):
the soil is not a good thing because it will
actually impact the plant's ability to uptake other essential nutrients.
High phosphorus, for example, can make it very difficult for
a plant to uptake aluminium or iron. So it's good
to know how all of these things interact. And but yeah,
the pH that's kind of what what you're really hoping
to find, because that will let you know what you
(05:41):
can grow and if you need to fertilize, what type
of fertilizer you're going to use. You know, people tell
me all the time, I'm using Aspoma holly tone on
my hydranges, and we've talked about it on the show before.
You and I both like Ispoma products an awful lot.
Just that's what we use in our own gardens. But
hollytone is an acidifying fertilizer, and I'm always telling people
(06:05):
please don't use holly tone unless you know you need
to acidify your soil, because otherwise you're just needlessly acidifying
it and it can push it to a point where
it becomes unhealthy, you know, through repeated use of other plants.
So it's important to know what fertilizer you should use
on your garden as well.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So Stacy, when you get the soil test back, make
sure to do some analysis but also some research because
there's gonna be stuff on there that you have no
idea what it is. I got my test back there
was something in there called BS percentage. That's the base
saturation percentage of the CC, the cat ition exchange capacity.
(06:44):
These are all things that you're going to have to
research to learn. And by the way, as far as
CEC is concerned, we could get real technical on this,
but the bottom line is I have found that generally
the rates of the CEC are far higher in soils
that have good humid humous content, clay soils, that sort
(07:04):
of thing, and so these are all things you want
to look at. It will give you a reading on sodium,
which may be something of interest for people who live
here in the north, and of course we have the
salt trucks coming by in the winter, all of those
types of things. Nitrogen generally, you're not going to find
much as far as nitrogen is concerned, because it's here today,
(07:26):
gone tomorrow, something we readily apply. Whereas as you were
saying stacee naturally within our soils. The pH is important
because these natural elements are in the soil, like magnesium
or potassium or potash many times naturally in our soils
without having to amend the soils. And then of course
(07:50):
a perk test. Now people will do a perk test
if they're, for example, installing a septic tank or a
drain field, or putting in founds for a large project.
It's overkill for the general homeowner. As a matter of fact,
you can do a simple perk test, and that is
to dig a hole twelve inches deep, fill it with water,
(08:12):
let it drain away. Once you've done that once, then
go back fill it again. Watch the rate of the drainage,
and you're going to because again, Stacy, we've said this
often on the program. Sure, moisture and nutrients are very
important to soils, but so is.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oxygen absolutely just as essential as water and nutrients.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Really exactly so all of those things. Would I encourage
you to get one of these soil tests. Absolutely, I
would get one of these soil tests. You're going to
be well grounded if you do it. You're going to
learn a lot as far as your plants are concerned.
And you know, if we're going to enjoy plants, Stacy,
(08:53):
I've always said, you have to have a sense of humans.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
That's you definitely definitely do. And you know, when you
do your soil test and you have that information, you're
able to make a database decision on how you're going
to care for your landscape. And that is so important.
Otherwise you're just guessing, and you could be adding chemicals
to the soil that that just don't need to be there,
that aren't beneficial, wasting your time, wasting your money. So
(09:19):
it's good to make a database decision and the only
way you can do that is a soil test.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And coming up on today's fourth segment, we'll be talking
to Deborah Kannapki. She's a soil expert. We're going to
be talking about restoring soils. That's coming up in our
Branching News segment. But next Stacey's going to give us
plants on trial and we'll see how she ties in
soil tests with plants. That's next here on the Gardening
(09:46):
Simplified Chip.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs cares about your success in
the garden. That's why we trial and test all of
our shrubs for eight to ten years, making sure they
outperform everything else on the market. Look for them and
the distinctive white container at your local garden center. Greetings,
gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show,
where the topic of the day is soil and don't
(10:13):
touch that dial. I know you're like, oh my gosh,
soil is so boring. Why in the world would I
listen to a show about soil? Because I felt that
way when I was in horticulture school and it was
time for my soil science class. I mean, I was
just like, oh, great, soil. Is this going to be fantastic?
You know? And I loved every minute of my soil
(10:36):
science class. It was honestly for me, the moment where
everything just made sense, and I said, you know, this
is why I want to go into horticulture, and I
want to write and I want to help people understand
because it is so crucial and it just it makes
so much more sense when you spend a little time
trying to understand it instead of thinking about, you know,
soil is dirt or just that stuff that's out there.
(11:00):
You know, soil. It is so fascinating. I could go
on no, but I don't have time to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
You have to be well grounded. And today we are
partners in grime, so to speak. I like it soiling
the airwaves, so let's do it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So soil in your garden. The reason that the soil
will differ from one place to another is it's all
based on the parent material. So that is the rock
that the soil originally was eroded from. Because all soil,
actual soil in your ground is mineral based. It is
from e roded rock that water and lichens and all
(11:33):
of these different factors have over time built and that's
why it's so precious and why we have to treat
it like it's an asset in our garden and not
just something that happens to be there. And that is
also why if you do a soil test, only do
your actual soil in the ground. Do not include any
(11:53):
potting soil or any potting mix or anything like that,
because the regular standard soil tests that a laboratory will
do will not measure what you need to know in
potting mix whatsoever. There are separate laboratories that will measure
and interpret your your potting mix chemistry. But a soil test,
(12:15):
as we have described it so far is strictly for
actual native soil in the ground that was weathered from rock.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I always tell people root for the loan team.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh I like that, Yeah, and it.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Helps you remember to do just that.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yes, and so loam like, that's a whole other thing. Basically,
a loam is a soil that has roughly equal parts
of sand, silt, and clay. I do not have a loam.
Do you have a loan?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I do not have a loan. I have beach sand.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Give me a loam.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I also had a buffalo roam. Almost all beach sand.
I mean where I live was a dune. Where you
live used to be a dune, and so, yeah, our
soils tend to just be sandy, and so a loam
is kind of like a a dream. It's it's a
it's a an ideal, an ideal that exists in very
few places. So you know, don't feel bad if you
(13:07):
don't have a loam. I don't have a loam, and
I make it work. I love my sandy soil. So
easy to weed, so easy to work, and you never
really get that dirty when you're working in it.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Did you ever do the ball jar test where you
measure the sand silk clay.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I did in my soil science class.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yeah, So you can just take some soil, put it
in a ball jar with water, put a drop of
soap in it. That will destroy the soil bonds, and
you shake it all up and then all of the
different elements of your soil will segment out and you
can actually calculate. Yeah, it's very cool. It's a very
cool thing to do. So if your kids are still
on vacation and you're looking for something interesting to do,
(13:42):
look it up. Get the full instructions. But Anyway, I
was talking about ideals, and I think in gardening there's
a lot of ideals that we put out there, and
one of those is well drained soil.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Ah, yes, yes, moist, well drained.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Soil, moist, well drain so well. And you know then
people are like, well, is it moist or is it
well drained? Well soil can be moist and well drained
because the moist part actually applies to the soil particles
themselves that they are capable of holding onto water. So
usually what that means is Azrik was saying, good humic acid,
a lot of organic matter in there, and then the
(14:20):
well drained part actually applies to the holes or to
the spaces in between those soil particles, and that's how
you can have a moist but well drained soil. The
particles stay moist, but there's plenty of air spaces in
there for the plant to be able to get that
crucial crucial oxygen for the roots. And you know this
(14:43):
is I mean, I write our plant tags, so I
can't even begin to tell you, through the course of
my career how many times I have written well drained
soil or said well drained soil. It is a lot,
but it is so crucial because, like we said, oxygen
is imperative for plants, and some plants are better able
to deal with poor drainage than others. So this is
(15:05):
one of those directives on the plant tag that you
really want to look at because if it says it
needs well drained soil and you don't have well drained soil,
that plant is not going to thrive. So today's plan
on trial is one that well drained soil is absolutely imperative.
Don't even think about growing this plant if you don't
have well drained soil and it is Lo and Behold
(15:28):
pink microchip butterfly bush.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I love that plant, especially along borders. It's a great plant.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It is a great plant. It is also one of
the smallest, if not the smallest butterfly bush on the market,
reaching just eighteen to twenty four inches tall, so a
foot and a half to two feet tall and wide,
so it's like a little pincushion of a plant practically,
and it also fun fact for being such a small
plant is one of our longest plant names. Low and
Behold Pink microchip butterflies, so you can ask our designer
(15:58):
about that. How she tries to fit that out tags.
But anyway, I wanted to pick this plant in specific
when we're talking about soil and well drained soil, because
well drained soil is important to all butterfly bush. But
when you have a very small butterfly bush like lo
and Behold pink microchip, having that well drained soil is
even more crucial because since it is so small, any
(16:20):
damage that occurs from a less than ideal site is
going to be much more concentrated on that little, tiny
plant than if you get you know, a big you know,
say miss Molly four to five foot tall butterfly bush.
So it's really really important if you want to grow
this that your soil is well drained, that you do
that test that Rick was just talking about, the home
(16:43):
perk test, yep. And so the great thing about the
perk test is you can you might want to do
this before you head to the garden center. But if
you happen to just get too caught up in the
moment and you bring home a plant that says well
drained soil and you need to check, and usually you know,
I mean, honestly, I think most people know if they
have well drained soil or not, because like, if you
go out after a rain, are you squishing and slashing
(17:03):
around or is it just kind of wet in my garden?
It is you can barely even tell it rained except
that the rain is still clinging to the foliage. So
most of us do have some idea, but I think
it does get confusing for people with clay soil, because
not all clay soils are going to be poorly drained.
You can have a soil that is fairly well drained
(17:25):
even if you have clay. So those are the people
who are really going to want to pay attention to
this perk test and do it before you go out.
But the cool thing is if you do this perk test,
you can actually use that hold to plant in. It's
like pre doing the work for yourself, you know, And
so it's not a waste. And it's also very interesting
to just watch in general, and you know, you know
(17:48):
again what you're dealing with.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
I think your point is well taken, Stacy, as far
as the perk test and drainage is concerned. I have
a miss molly in a low area and a mishot
violence in a high area, and the miss violet is
doing better than Miss one one. Interesting, so I think
it's important.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It is important, and I do want to say to
those who find out that they do not have good drainage,
that you are not without options to grow a butterfly bush.
You can actually grow this butterfly bush in a container.
And we do hear from a lot of people who
want to grow butterfly bush, whether it's low and behold
pink microchip, today's plant on trial, or a different one
(18:26):
that you know, they want to grow them, so they
grow in containers and it is absolutely possible. Now if
you lone beehold pink microchip is about hardy to USDA
Zone five heat tllerant through USDA Zone nine, So if
you are colder than zone five, you can grow it
as an annual. Just enjoy it for the season, let
it go at the end. And the cool thing about
butterfly bush is that they flower so much that it's
(18:49):
almost like, you know, as if you were growing like
a mandavilla or a hibiscus or something a tropical plant
that you would normally just let go at the end
of the season because they're just going to flower for
you all summer long. Now, if you live in zone five.
You can either transplant it into the ground or you
can attempt to overwinter it in the container. Now, if
you are in that camp, you're going to want to
(19:12):
choose a weather proof container, one that can stay outdoors
all year round without breaking or cracking or flaking. And
you're going to this is really crucial, want to choose
a container that is roughly as deep as it is wide.
So you don't want to choose one of those I
see these all the time. They seem like they're really
popular right now, super narrow and tall containers. That would
(19:33):
be the worst thing because basically what that is going
to do is create a huge volume of soil. It's
always wet and the roots never grow into it, and
that is basically creating a poor drainage situation because that
soil will stay out and you can grow plenty of
other things in there, but definitely not butterfly bush. So
choose something that's about proportional, or if you have a low,
(19:54):
kind of more bowl light container that can work as well.
Your goal is to minimize just the soil sitting around
the roots to hold on to that moisture.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Good.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Oh yes, of course, got to have a drainage hole
at the bottom, so it's it's a simple thing to do,
and it's a great way to be able to enjoy
low and behold pink microchip if your soil conditions don't
comply with your dreams. And we've all been there, so
I feel you. So I didn't talk a lot about
what lo and behold pink microchip. Butterfly bush looks like
hopefully it is right there in the name pink flowers.
(20:27):
But you can find out all that information on our
show notes at Gardeningsimplified on air dot com, and we'll
also link you to some shrubs and container information there
so you can take all of this and whether you
have well drained soil or not, put a butterfly bush
into your life. We're gonna take a little break when
we come back, we're opening up the garden mail bag,
so please stay tuned. At proven Winter's Color Choice, we've
(20:55):
got a shrub for every taste and every space. Whether
you're looking for an easycare and unforgettable hydrangea or something
new and unique, you can be confident that the shrubs
and the white containers have been trialed and tested for
your success. Look for them at your local garden center.
Greeting's gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show,
(21:15):
where it's time for us to help you solve your
garden problems the best that we can long distance, and
you know, when you send a picture that makes it
a lot easier. But we really do want to help you,
especially I know as people come into fall and think
about do I cut this back? What do I do
about this? This happened? You know, people end up with
a lot of questions, and if you are in your
(21:36):
garden confronted with a question, as always my advice is
do nothing until you get the right answer. So when
in doubt, don't do it. Just ask us a question.
You can also reach us on the Proven Winner's website
and ask us questions. We will get you an answer,
but don't do something that you will regret. And also,
(21:56):
if you happen to see something, you know a little
whacky going on in your garden, you might want to
reach out to us and say, hey, Stacey and Rick,
do you know what's going on? We had a listener
send us a very freaky looking echinaesia.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, if you're watching on YouTube right now, or you
want to go to our website Gardening Simplified on air
dot Com. We'll put it in the show notes. Boy,
just a echinationa with a double flower back to back.
And it seems to me stacy like, I see this
type of funny stuff go on with echinations or plants
(22:29):
that are in the astor family, and I think it's
a good example of how a bloom on a plant
is determinate. In other words, the plant is in essence
setting a terminal bud and then there's some real freaky,
funky kind of stuff that can happen there.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Anything can happen. Yeah, And so what is happening to
this echinasa is a phenomenon called faciation, and that is
FA S C I A T I O N. And
basically the easiest way to think of it is it
is a condition that makes plants grow flat and contorted,
(23:08):
and it can look like a lot of different things.
If you look it up online you will see all
sorts of various permutations of fasciation. Fasciation can be caused
by hormones, genetics, bacteria, fungus, virus, or environmental issues.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Wow, that's why I have a fasciation with this subject.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
So there are so many factors that can contribute to
this and the asterac you said, A lot of these
do seem to happen to the daisy family. You see
it happen a lot with dandelions are particularly susceptible, So
it's not necessarily a cause for concern. I know people
probably hear bacteria, fungus virus and think, oh, geez, I
got to do something, But it's just something that happens.
(23:49):
It's a random mutation. It's not usually harmful to the plant,
and very often plants can live for decades, even centuries.
There are soorro cactus down in the Tucson area that
have developed fasciation. It's the crested kind of growth that
have absolutely been alive for hundreds of years, So it's
not necessarily that it's going to cripple the plant. The
(24:11):
other thing I want to say about fasciation before we
move on, is that it's one of those things that
if you look at the picture of this echinaesia, you
might say, WHOA, that's so crazy. I've never seen anything
like that. But once you know what fasciation is, you
will actually start to notice it in a lot of
different plants. And sometimes it could be, you know, just
a small part of a tree, just like a branch or.
(24:32):
So it can happen to roses, it can happen to
all sorts of weeds, willows. There's just a huge number
of plants that are susceptible to it. So it's one
of those things that you just have to, I don't know,
consider yourself lucky. Maybe go out and buy a lottery
ticket and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
You know, but particularly with flowering plants or with flowers,
because we look at the plant and we go, beautiful flower.
The plant views that determinate end on that stem as
it's reproduct depart, and that's where, Yes, sometimes these genetics,
whatever it may be, becomes kind of fun to watch.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yes, it can be very interesting, and it will take
many different forms. So look it up if you're interested.
Just one of the many crazy things that plants do
that we can enjoy as gardeners.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Netta writes to us, I help my sister's family with
their garden. I love it. She asked about these irises.
I told her they were irises, But in four to
five years since she's transplanted them, they've never bloomed. She
likes the foliage even without the flowers. But do you
have ideas on why they're not blooming five to six
hours of sun in Connecticut. Any advice? Love your show
(25:41):
and Stacy, I would say the timing on this question
is fabulous.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes it is. Indeed, thank you Netta for your question.
So obviously they're getting enough sun. The issue is that
they are planted too deep So after your sister transplanted them,
those rhizomes got buried too deeply and they just don't bloom.
This also happens with pe andes. If you plant them,
transplant them and plant them too deeply, they will not flower.
(26:07):
So very simple solution here, especially as we're coming into fall.
Just dig them up and replant them, but put them
so that those big rhizomes are more like at the
soil surface. You know, if you if you can go
to a public garden or something like that and see
the irises, you'll notice that you very often can see
(26:27):
almost the entire rhizome above the ground and the plant
will just do that naturally. So I dig these out,
move them up so that those rhizomes are just barely
covered with soil because rain and so forth will take
care of the rest and you should be back to
blooming this spring.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I would hope yeah, and Stacy, if they're too crowded, divide.
That's why I say this. The timing on this question
is great. Generally divide and do that work on iris
about eight weeks after they've bloomed. So usually, at least
here in Michigan, we tend to do that work in
August September. So I would say in Connecticut, your timing
is good.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yep, So put it on the list next time you're
rich your sisters and you're going to be an Irish
superhero to her and her family.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Barbara has a great question. I have some questions about
mulching and the use of mulch when gardening. Initially, when
I was starting my gardens, I did use mulch each spring,
But now I have not been using mulch at all.
I've planted a lot of groundcover that's taking over the
foundation of my gardens. Mulch is another expense, and I
thought groundcover I could avoided using the mulch and the expense.
(27:32):
What's your recommendation to mulching when you've established a groundcover
or would you like to and should I mulch each
fall or every other year, and that's from Barbara.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, so Barbara, that is a great question, and mulching
is not essential. We do recommend it frequently, especially if
you have planted something new, and especially if you planted
like a new tree, shrub or perennial. Putting down a
good two to three inch layer of mulch is going
to create ideal root growth conditions so the plant will
get established quickly. But if you don't need mulch, you
(28:05):
do not have to use it. And it sounds to
me like your groundcover has filled in, so it's doing
a lot of what the mult would do. It's keeping
down weeds, it's helping to conserve soil moisture, and as
long as you're happy with a look, I would not
not just avoid the expense but the pain of trying
to apply mulch in between all those fine groundcovers, which
(28:28):
is not a fun job.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Thank you very mulch.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yes she did say that, by the way, Yes, thank
you mulch.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
So I like that.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
We need more. Shout barbar out for that.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Jill writes to us about four years ago, I planted
a candy crush Hibiscus loved it so much. Ordered another
two questions, Why is one so much bigger than the other.
They're both beautiful, but the OCD in me is kind
of bug that they aren't the same size. We've talked
about that before. Great question, Jill. Also, they are in
(28:58):
a planter that surrounds the deck and I love them there.
But are the root systems outgrowing the eighteen inch wide plant? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And Jill did add that she is in Utah and
we have pictures of Jill's garden where she's sending us
the pictures of the candy crush Hibiscus, which you can
see on YouTube or at Gardening Simplified on air dot com.
It's a lovely space and I think the candy crush
was a perfect choice. So why is the first one
so much bigger? She does mention that the second one,
the smaller one, is the second one that she planted,
(29:27):
and so yeah, that is simply a matter of the
plant's maturity. You know, the other one has at least
a full year on that. And you know hibiscus, the
summerfic hibiscus, they have such a big, dense root system,
almost like the irises or they've got big kind of
tuberous roots, and the more of those that the plant has,
the more resources it has to grow stems and to
(29:50):
put on height. So this is really just a matter
of patients just need to let that second plant have
some time to get its root system as large as
the and of course the other one will always have
a little bit of a head start. But I would
say by the time the second one has been in
the ground three years, you're not really going to be
able to notice a difference because at that point they'll
both have just kind of reached a similar maxed out
(30:12):
point of their root system, and so they'll look a
lot similar. So a little patients there.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Now.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
When I looked at Jill's pictures, I did not see
any problem with that planter size. I have found overall
that hibiscus are a bit self regulating. If they don't
have the space to keep growing their roots in, they
kind of just don't.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
They're tough guys, and as Laura Robles said to us
in our show last week, they can handle either wet
soil or dry soil. So the plant I think will
be able to adjust. I don't think i'd go any
smaller than eighteen inches as far as the container isered.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, yeah, so it's not even really container. It's like
a brick patio edging kind of thing, and you know
they'll go deep. I think that you won't have to
worry about it. And one thing that you can do
with hibiscus if they do start kind of going out
to where you don't want them in springs might sound
very cruel to some people, but in spring, when the
(31:11):
buds finally start to emerge from those roots, just knock
them out. If you just knock out that bud or
a couple of buds going in a direction that you
don't want them to go, they will stop growing. So
you don't have to worry about it going too far
over towards your deck or interfering with people walking by.
It's a very simple solution, doesn't hurt the plant, it
(31:31):
will just put that energy into other stems. So lots
of options for control and those candy crush hibiscus one
of my favorite of the summer Fixed series, looking absolutely gorgeous.
So thank you all so much for your questions. If
you have a question, you can reach us at Gardeningsimplified
on air dot com. We're going to take a break
when we come back. We've got a guest, so please
stay tuned. The Gardening Simplified Show is brought to you
(31:57):
by proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs. Award winning flowering shrubs
and evergreens have been trialed and tested for your success
so you enjoy more beauty and less work. Look for
Proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs and the distinctive white container
at your local garden center.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Welcome back to The Gardening Simplified Show. Today, we've been
talking about soil tests and soil and we're going to
continue that theme here in our branching news segment. We're
going to talk soil health with author, writer, teacher, coach, designer, horticulturist, herbalist,
community servant. I know I can go on and on,
(32:37):
and by the way, if you ever want the most
delicious pecan cranberry whole wheat bread right out of the oven,
she's the lady to talk to. Deborah Kannapke. The website
is Deborah Theegardensage dot com. Deborah, thanks so much for
joining us on the show today.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Oh it's a pleasure, and I'm really impressed with all
the adjectives you found.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Well, thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. And by
the way, I do follow you in social media. Your
posts are always very, very interesting. As a matter of fact,
I noticed this past week you can tell us how
to fix a broken tomato?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Well are you? Are you?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
That was Maggie's post. I've known Maggie for years. Meggie fucko.
And she's up on the Great Lake. Well, she's in
Ohio and she's up in I think she's still in
Lake County, Okay. And she is a home she is
at farmer's markets and whatever, and she just puts on
the greatest posts and her lavender field is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah.
(33:50):
I shared her posts.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And Deborah Adriana is looking at me inquisitively. The answer is,
how do you fix a broken tomato? You use tomato paste.
It was a post, yes, of course, definitely social media.
But we're here to talk about soil. And you sent
me something, Deborah that I thought was really great. It
was a quote that said, we abuse land because we
(34:12):
regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we
see land as a community to which we belong, we
may begin to use it with love and respect. This
is kind of akin to talking about our subject matter
today as opposed to calling it dirt, calling it soil.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Right, absolutely, and you just used probably It's one of
my top five quotes, and I try to work it
in anytime I'm talking about garden and soil health and
the earth because this quote from all the Leopold, which
is in the forward of the Sand County Almanac, it
(34:55):
was necessary or required reading for my students when I
taught it Columbus State. And then also he wrote the
Land Epic which supports this quote, and it is it
is so important to understand this. A lot of times
we do treat soil like dirt.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's important EarthCare, people care, and fair share.
So let's talk a moment. You know, I know you
have a lot of interest, Deborah, in regenerative agriculture or
regenerative horticulture or regenerating soil. How did you get into this?
(35:36):
What's been your inspiration?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
So I became or I worked my way towards being
an organic gardener in the mid eighties, after having one
of those epiphanies, you know, I was about to spray
my roses. I had a one year old daughter and
suddenly I thought, what if she puts her touches this
and puts her finger in her mouth. And then I
(36:02):
started looking at well, if I'm thinking about her, who
else should I be thinking about? And I started seeing.
I started seeing bees and other insects and birds in
my gardens, and I realized that I was not only
the caretaker of these pretty flowers that I put in
(36:23):
my gardens, but I was a caretaker or a steward
of the earth. And from there it grew. Even in
my own research at Ohio State, from my master's thesis,
I refused to use pesticides on my plants and herbicides
in my field to keep down weeds. Instead, I did
(36:44):
the old fashioned pilling and hoeing in between my rose
to keep weeds down in hand pulling because it was
important for me to honor the earth as well as
honoring the plants that I was growing.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You know, Devora, I think everything you just said is
so important to understanding why it matters to get people
to plant one thing. You know, there's so much you know,
desire for purity out there, and oh, if you're not
doing things this organic or this native, you know that
that it's not worth doing and you shouldn't even try.
(37:22):
And I think that for so many people. Certainly it
was the same for me, having that just maybe starting
out as a more conventional gardener. You're only going to
have that epiphany if you are out there in the
first place. Otherwise, you know, it's just people telling you
this and telling you that, and you really need to
have that moment that you had to start having a
(37:43):
real change, not just in what you do, but in
the way that you.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Think absolutely and it and you know it's slow, it
doesn't happen overnight. And then you do something and then
you say, gee, do I want to continue doing that?
And for me, it just built, so it builds slowly.
And then I've read so many people, of course, you know,
(38:09):
Rachel Carson and Gretel Erlik and Terry Tempest Williams and
John Muir and I could go on and on, and
I've read so many of these environmental authors. And once
you get into that, you realize that it's not just
about me, you know, it's about all definitely, Yeah, and
(38:33):
that's huge, and it doesn't but it doesn't have to be.
I mean, we think, do no harm. I mean, that's
a great place to start, but then sometimes it's not
that there's a best practice, or even a good practice,
it's the least worst practice.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Yeah, And we're not perfect. I'm not looking for perfections.
I'm looking for what's reasonable and what works well.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I'm glad we're not looking for perfection because I'm about
to admit something. I'm feeling guilty. So we're talking about
regenerative agriculture, regenerative horticulture. So I'm going to share with
you something I feel guilty about, and then something that
I learned. So Deborah, first, the guilt, let me get
it off my chest. I'm a tiller. I like to till.
(39:25):
I like to dig until. I like to grind up leaves,
till it into the soil, ad organic matter, the whole
concept of minimizing soil disturbance. I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
I struggle with that, and you know a lot of
people do, because it is in our our nature. You know,
we've we've learned. You plow up the field, you pow
up the vegetable garden, and and we but we have
found and you know, our knowledge changes over time. It's
not like knowledge or science stay static. All this criticism
(40:00):
of science, you know, and oh science didn't get it
right the first time. Well, of course it didn't. You know.
That's that is us learning, and that is us figuring
out more things. Science is a way to test our theories.
That's why it's called a hypothesis. Sure, now you know
it's not Oh this is a basic truth, and there
(40:23):
are basic truths, but there aren't absolutes. I think in
most things you can't say you're totally done because then
something else comes up and you learn something new. So
when you till just to use that example, oh, maybe
I should let you tell me what you've learned before
I go into mind.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Well, I've learned. First of all, I've learned you know,
I'm going to be turning sixty five years old this year,
and I've learned that I'm an experienced failure. And that's
been very beneficial to me, because when you make mistakes,
you learn learned from them far better than from reading
a book or having somebody tell you to what to do.
(41:06):
But I think as far as minimizing soil disturbance is concerned,
is it's a good reminder for people like me. As
you say, Deborah, that that when you're dealing with soil,
it's a complex biological community, and we have to recognize that.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So with pilling, and it is hard because there's something
about that earth smell when you do, it's fantastic, amazing,
and so we want that. And you know, I think
when I was on last time, I even mentioned this before,
but my obacterian vace is a little bacteria that enhances
(41:49):
serotonin production in your body, and that's what you're breathing
in when you're killing the soil, so you're feeling good.
You know, it's a boost. But we also found that
when we disturb the soil and when we break up
all those pets, you know, the aggregates of soil, when
(42:09):
we break them up, we break up that glue, We
break up all that fungi that's in the soil and
the bacterial communities, and it takes year, two years, three years,
depending on what type of soil and how healthy it
was to begin with, to come back from that. So
it's kind of an interesting push pull on this whole
(42:35):
tilling question. But I know I have friends that say
I'm going to fill so the day I die, well
for it.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
It makes me feel grounded. You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Just oh, is that another fund?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, it is. It is but you know, in answer
to your question, what have I learned? One of the
things that I've learned is that covering the soil is important,
that the proper use of mold, which can be a
good thing. And I often tell people that in nature,
obviously these plants aren't mulch, but they use a form
(43:09):
of natural mult whether it be sticks, leaves, whatever falls
off the trees, they share that bounty. In essence, the
soil is.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Covered, right, and that's the whole thing. You know, we're
crazy about raking our leaves in the fall. And that
was another epiphany I had. We are hikers and I'm
out there at one of our local parks with the
kids who aren't in the trees, and I'm looking around
(43:39):
and I see all the leaves and I think, huh,
nobody rakes the leaves here? Why am I raking the
leaves out of my gardens and under my trees? And
if you ever visit here in Columbus, you'll see my
woodland path in the front yard. That is all my
leaves for my trees. I put them there and there
they stay, and they don't go into the backyard or
(44:02):
into black plastic bags to go away. But they stay
right here on my property, and that's covering the soil.
And I have an area in my front front yard
that is so rich that unless we're in deep drought,
I can dig with it in my hands, with my hands.
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
It's it's it's great news for all the people who
feel like gardening is too much work, because what this
change in knowledge and perspective is giving us is permission
to do less, to enjoy more, and to not treat
our gardens as you know, sterile, spick and span kind
(44:41):
of places that need to be clean quote unquote yeah,
that they should be messy, and that we can emulate
nature in our yards. And as we do that, and
our neighbors maybe look at us askance that we see
that as a as an opportunity to tell them what
we're doing and explain that in a way that starts
(45:04):
to educate and spread the word.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I totally agree. My gardens have become messy messier over time,
if you you know, and I do use that term
because that's how some people perceive, especially my back gardens,
they have become quite messy, quite you know, the plants
are determining who's growing where because I don't have the time.
(45:29):
You know, you mentioned an age thing just a moment ago,
and I am getting older too, and there's only so
much I can do in the gardens before I say okay,
I'm done.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, And you know, Stacy mentioned neighbors looking at you.
What was the word you used, A.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Scans, I said, a scance.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I like that word. My neighbors do that to me, Deborah.
They they view me as they call me Planta Claus.
And the reason for that is in October, November, December,
I'm walking around with bags collecting maple leaves from neighbor's
yards and using them in my garden. So they call
me plant a clause. But yes, to a degree, they
(46:09):
do look a scance, Deborah. I wanted to ask you,
in reading some of your materials, you are a proponent
of integrating animal manures. Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I am, because one of the points of regenerative agriculture,
regenerative horticulture is to integrate live stock. Well, it's a
little bit harder in a garden. So for me in
regenerative court, I say integrate animal manures because they have
all these organisms in it that's supercharged the soil, do.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Deer droppings count.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yes they do. I love it because, in fact, this
year I have had several bucks in my backyard and
I was used to the deer droppings of does and fonds,
and I thought these too huge. I mean wow, And
I said, okay, I don't have a bear in my backyard.
(47:10):
Do you want? And I know, I know I didn't,
but this was these were amazing. And someone said no,
that you would just have a couple of healthy books
bucks in your backyard. And so I just kick it
into the soil and say, okay, there we are.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Wow, bonjour manure.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
That's right. And I'm just I'm really pleased. I just
wish they'd put it directly in the garden. They don't
have to kick it out of my pathway.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
I feel that, Yes, Buss.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
A quick question for you, Deborah before we we let
you go. Are you in agreement that soil tests are
a good idea? Is it a good idea for the
general homeowner to get a soil test?
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I always tell people to get a soil test, especially
if the plants aren't growing as well as it looks
like they should. I know that's kind of a roundabout
way of saying it, but if you move into a
new house, or are unsure of what's going on in
an area of your garden. One of the best things
(48:18):
you can do is look at a soil test. Look
at your pH look at your nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium levels,
and most importantly, your organic organic matter percentage. So many
of our soils have been degraded and there isn't a
lot of organic matter, and without organic matter, your plants
(48:42):
aren't going to grow well. So Yes, I hooleheartedly back
the use of soil tests. And they did not tell
me to say this before. I just want to put
that out there. It's something that I recommend to my
clients definitely.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Like I mentioned, Deborah is an author, a writer, a teacher,
a coach, a designer. I'm just amazed at what you do,
and I do call you a community servant. You are
involved in the community, Deborah, and I appreciate everything you
do for our industry but also for the community in general,
because we all love plants. They are a part of us,
(49:21):
they are a lifestyle. I invite people to visit Deborah's
website It's Deborah, That's deeb r a deborahthegardensage dot Com
and Deborah. Always a joy to have you on the
Gardening Simplified Show.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Thank you, it's a joy to be here.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
See we told you soil would be interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah. Yeah, you know Billy Madison. What movie was Billy?
It was Adam Sandler. He would say, chlorophyll, boraphil. There's
nothing boring about it.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
He said that, he said, well, I never Well, that
was a very interesting conversation. So we want to thank
Deborah and I thank you Rick, I you Adriana, and
of course we thank all of you for tuning in.
We hope you have a wonderful week ahead.
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