Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Gardens Alive. And now we're joined by Jenna bonorant YouTube
influencers not the right word, but presence who does has
great background with vegetable knowledge, has worked in the industry
for a long time, grew up with all of this. Jenna,
(00:21):
Welcome aboard. How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi? I'm good. How are you, Scott?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm doing all right. Mark's a little queasy. I think
he's looking bad actually, but he must have tied one
on again last night. It's a week.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh no, Mark, not again.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
His reputation precedes him. Jenna, you do these great YouTube
videos that are extensive, and I honestly I looked at
a few of them last night, and you know, eight
thirteen minute videos where you're just talking. It doesn't look
like it's pre written, and it's flawless, and you take
(01:04):
on a topic and you carry it from beginning to end.
And I watched the one on beats, and it's like,
by the end of that, if you had any questions
at all about beats, you were paying attention.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, And that's that's something that I've kind of grappled
with because, as I think most of us are aware,
in the world, particularly of social media, there's generally people
gravitate towards short and sweet like there, we don't have
a long attention span. A lot of people don't want that,
they don't want to watch a twenty minute video. But
(01:40):
the way my brain works, I like, I want to
know everything about whatever the thing is that I'm curious about,
So I struggle to.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Do videos that are condensed. And yeah, I tend.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
To just go all in on a topic and I
want to, like exactly like you said, I try to
foresee any questions that anybody might have had ever about
that particularly particular thing and answer it in the video.
And I think there is a certain type of gardener
that definitely appreciates that. I've gotten really good feedback from.
(02:17):
I noticed that I tend to have the same people
over and over asking questions and responding to the video,
and I think that they really resonate with that style.
So yeah, that's that's what I stick with because that's
what would be important to me if I were the
one seeking out this information.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So that's what I want to put out into the world.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, and you, like I said before, you've got this
background that actually, you know allows you to give good information,
not just what's trending or what you saw on AI
or you know somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You've done all of this, Yes, I have, And I
mean every every gardening season is a learning experience, so
and I am constantly experiment with new techniques and ideas
and all different products, just because I always want to
be able to pass that information onto other gardeners.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I think through my career.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I've just had to research and learn so much.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And what's really.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Helpful is I think again, through my career, I've been
able to discern which sources are the best for things
that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So there are a lot of university research sites.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
That I rely on and particular resources that I find
to be really really helpful. And I think that's something
where the world of the Internet can get a little
bit overwhelming because there's so much information, and how do
you know what's accurate? And I think being able to
figure out what is truly accurate, what is truly a
good source versus Yeah, like you said, what's just following
(03:50):
the trending or what is written by AI is really
really helpful in this field.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, Well, today's show is devoted entirely to fruits and
vegetables growing them at home. And I can't think of
two better people to have with me today than you
and Mark. And the first thing on our agenda is
to talk about soil prep garden prep. So let's get
started on that. You know, everybody in the world, even
(04:18):
if they don't have clay soil, things, they have clay
soil or poor soil. And so what do you do
to to improve your soil if you need to before
you start a vegetable garden?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Jump in so I know you just said everyone thinks
they have clay soil. We here in my area of Ohio,
we do legitimately very heavy clay soil. I mean it's
the kind that you can My kids when they were younger,
used to go out in the like mudholes and dig
up a handful of soil and make pottery.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Out of it and let it air dry because it
is so rich in clay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Sort of like a block of cheese like clay.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yes, yes, exactly, and so that is it definitely is
does present a challenge, But honestly, after years of working
with it, I don't know that I would trade it
for any except.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
For maybe, you know, perfect loamy soil.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
But clay has a lot of its own benefits in
that many times it is very mineral rich. I actually
love the fact that it can hold water because especially
in the last several seasons where we've had drought conditions,
that's actually been a good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
For my garden.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
But it definitely needs some TLC. And so what I
find here I garden primarily at my own home. I'm
in midwestern part of Ohio and at my parents.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Just like five miles down the road.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
What I will do when I start a new plot
is generally, I know a lot of people are strictly
no till but I find that with this heavy clay
soil in particular, it actually can be helpful to start
with a one time tillage. And sometimes if your clay
is really really heavy, people will actually suggest doing like
ripping of the soil where you get down even deeper
(06:07):
into that hard pan layer. It's just to open that
up because one of the tricks with clay is it
is so heavy that oxygen and water can't move through
that soil texture, so that one time tillage or the
ripping of the soil can open up the soil a
little bit so that it can be aerated, and then
I generally like to rely on.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
My go to amendment is animal manure, and that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Can be a little bit tricky because you really have
to find a safe source of animal manore. You don't
want anything where the animals have been fed or pastured on,
anything sprayed with persistent herbicides, because those can if you
put that manure on your garden, it can kill your plants.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So knowing your farmer or having your own animals is
really the best option.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But I find that animal manures and now it's going
to vary. Some of them will need to be composted,
some of them won't. My favorite is actually the manor
that we've gotten from dairy, our dairy farmer friends. I
apply that and I find that it just works. It's
magic on the heavy soil. It helps to increase microbial life,
(07:13):
It helps to improve soil tilt, it helps to improve fertility,
It helps to kind of unlock that that really sticky
texture over time. The amount of earthworms that you see
in a pile of calor is phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Really like that all starts to work really combined to
really improve the soil jenna. We're gonna have to take
a break. When we come back, we'll carry on this conversation.
You're listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin, We'll be right.
You're listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin. I am Scott.
I'm here with Mark Wessel, my good friend from Gardens Alive,
and with Jenna Bonorant independent consultant and YouTuber. Both are
(07:57):
vegetable fruit and vegetable experts and are going to just
focus on those things today. Mark, you had something you
wanted to say.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, I want to echo Jenna's admiration for clay soil.
It is problematic in certain environmental you know, stressors like
a lot of water, but it does hold nutrients and moisture.
Not all of us have access to animal manure. I
get one load, one pickup truck load a year from
a friend, but other than that, I have to rely
(08:25):
on other inputs like compost straight company. I mean, clay
is great, especially when you get that organic matter in
there and you get dry.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The much rather have clay to work from and build
up than like a sandy soil which holds well.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I you know, I go to our Michigan facility, which
is like beach sand and it's great. You can after
a downpour get out there and work, but in a
few days it's dry as a bone.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Again.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, but one thing I like to do, if I
have the time, is add just a thick layer leave.
So I have an area at our house that was
just and just that brick making clay. You put a
thick layer of you know, leaves on there, and those
microbes and worms within a year they just transform that soil.
It really is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, it's amazing what organic matter can do and that
and we can't emphasize enough how important it is if
you're going to garden in any way, shape or form,
to start out at least with good soil to do
what you have to to make it friable. Good rich soil.
(09:32):
And again, the clay has the nutrients, it just needs
the poor spaces so air and oxygen can get in
there and the microbial action. Jenna, Yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think I yes, like a thousand percent agree that
that soil is that getting that soil healthy makes everything
that you're ever going to do in the garden so
much easier. Your plants will be healthier, happier, your work
is easier.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It is so important, and sometimes I think people want to.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Rush that step because you know, you get excited about
garden and you just want to put everything in. But
if you can spend a little time giving that soiltlc,
it pays off in dividends in the end. And I
with Mark Mark's point about leaves, I think that is
a g I also agree. I love leaf mulch, and
I think that's very accessible to almost everyone. Right, like
(10:26):
you either have your own leaves. A lot of communities
offer like free leaf mult or free leaf mold at
the end of the season, and it really is gardener's gold.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It is amazing stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Nice thing about a vegetable garden for the most part,
it's almost entirely annual. Plants too, is that you should
start out building your soil, but you can keep adding
to it over time. But at a certain point, no,
I don't I'm vague on this, but at a certain
point you can have too much organic matter. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
That is yes, that is you can plus the ad
of certain things, you'll get excesses and nutrients. It starts
getting You really need to do a soil test every
few years because if you build up like your phosphorus.
You know, that stuff doesn't leach out. It's there unless
until you pull a crop off. So you do have
(11:17):
to be careful with or you know, adding organic matter.
There are some.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Drawbacks, Jenna. What else do you have to add regarding
you know, soil prep. You know, should we mulch our
plants in a vegetable garden.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Oh? Absolutely yes.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
There are going to be caveats to that, as there
is with everything in gardening. I think sometimes if you're having,
for instance, a very wet spring, I will hold off
on the mulch. Sometimes natural mulches can attract past like slugs.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So again in that case, I will tend.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
To hold off on the mulch till it gets a
little warmer and drier. But in general, absolutely, I always
mulch all of my plants, and I to use chops,
chopped leaves, leaf mulch, or grass clippings for around my
actual annual plant garden, you know, vegetables and flowers and
that type of thing. Sometimes I'll use ramial wood chips
(12:12):
around my perennial plantings, but I don't like those in
the vegetable garden on the actual beds. But I find
that using those again, especially grass clippings and leaf mulch
in the annual garden beds, you get so many benefits.
So like Mark alluded to, with the leaves, you you
get that addition of organic matter, You encourage earthworms, You
(12:34):
help feed the microbial life in the soil. But also
those mulches are going to retain soil, keep soil moisture
more consistent.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Which is very important.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They're going to often the soil cooler, which in these hot,
intense summers that we've been having, is very important. And yeah,
you just you end up watering lush, your plants are happier,
and as that break down, you're getting more organic matter
in your.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Soil NUTRIENTSA do you fine with grass clippings that can
get too hot and matt down.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
So it is interesting and I do get that question
a lot when I apply grass clippings, and I will
apply them fresh, like I will cut and bag and
apply it immediately. We also when there's a lot of grass,
my husband will use the big bagger and just put
a big pile behind the barn and that will sit
for a long time, and I'll use it as I
need it. So the pile itself will get intensely hot,
(13:26):
so you'll see like smoke rolling off of it. I
go it, I have to wear gloves to get in
there because it's too hot for me to touch with
my bare hands. But when I apply it on my
garden beds in a you know, typically about a two
to four inch thick layer, I have never seen any
issue with the overheating or causing any harm to my plants.
(13:47):
I think just because it's in a layer of thinner
layer like that, it tends to cool off relatively quickly,
and I don't have the issues that I have when
it's in a thicker pile.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I've only with grass clippings. One thing I'm careful with
is putting it right near young seedlings. I remember an
arugula planting I had. I put it down in a
thin layer and it cooled off quickly. I don't know
if it off gas, p ammonia, or what, but it
kind of burned those plants and set them back. And
the one other issue I consider when using grass clippings,
(14:18):
because I love them they smother everything really well, is
some plants. I don't like it on my peppers as
much because it's a good source of nitrogen and it
gets them sometimes growing a little too vigorously at the
at the expense of fruit production.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Let's talk for a minute. Well, we've got a couple
of minutes left here before the break. About till versus
no till, because I kind of followed school. People have
been tilling for a million years. It's always worked. You know,
it's the only way to incorporate deeper, more organg matter,
if that's even necessary over time. You know, what are
your feelings, both of you on tilling in non or
(15:01):
in no Tell Marco.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
First, I'm it just depends on your gardening style. But
some things, especially for smaller seeded things, I practice both
kind of a combination. Tilling makes a nice seed bed
and you just get to start over with a blank slate.
And you know, when you have a no till and
(15:24):
say you have a lot of mulch on there, sometimes
the soil just stays too wet. You have to pull
it back, let it dry out and warm up as well,
because it keeps your soil much much cooler. So there's
I think there's great benefits for both. I mean, when
you till, you're just you're you know, you're opening that
soil up to your own seeds you plant, but weeds
(15:46):
everything else for sure, Yeah, Jenna.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I I would probably mirror what Mark has said in
that there are there are benefits.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
There are arguments for both styles.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I think, and it's tricky because it depends. Again, it's
so much on your location, your environment, your weather, your
soil type as to what is going to be the
best for.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You, your time like your time and your energy and
what equipment you have available.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So there are all these caveats, right, But I think
my own personal strategy has been that I aim for
as minimal soil disruption as possible because I want to
be focused on allowing that soil web, that microbial life
in the soil to be as robust and.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Healthy as possible.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
And every time you disrupt the soil, you are disrupting
that that life. So, as I mentioned before, I will
often do a one time tillage, but then after that
I will graduate to just using a broad fork.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
That has been a tool that's been really, really useful
in my garden.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Again, if you're doing a huge, huge garden, that's tricky,
but the broad fork helps open up that clay without
actually turning the soil over.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So you're getting less disruption.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
To describe what it is, and I describe what broad
fork is because I don't think most people know soly.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
There's actually the broad fork that I use is called
a modified broad fork, and my brother in law, who's
a welder, actually made it, and it is essentially something
that is created specifically for heavy clay, and so it
actually has a lever that helps move the times through
the soil.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So it's a little bit different than if you were
to just google a broad fork.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
What you'll see if you just say google broad fork
is it's a tool that has I mean, basically it
looks like a giant fork. It's got times that you
push down into the soil.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
The idea is you kind of step on that, wiggle
it back and.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Forth, open up the soil, and then just pull the
fork straight out. So again, all you're doing is just
opening up the soil rather than like flipping it over
like a shovel or a tiller.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah and that. Yeah, so it just you're you're you're
opening up the soil for air and water to penetrate.
You're listing let's guarden with Scott Berlin and we'll be
back at just a few minutes. It's all fruits and vegetables.
Today I'm talking with Mark Wessel from gardens Alive and
Jenna Bonnorant from YouTube. She does YouTube videos on vegetables
(18:07):
which you just got to look at. And Jenna, how
do they how do people find that on YouTube?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Probably the easiest thing is just to search grow fully
with Jenna and my channel should pop up very good.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Grow Fully with Jenna altogether, grow fully g r O
W f U l L Y with Jenna, which I
love that title. Love that. So let's talk a little
bit on how people you know, you get the catalog
in the wintertime and everything looks so cool and so
good and you want to try everything. But how does
(18:41):
a gardener, you know, especially regionally, how do they look
at that catalog in the wintertime and determine not only
the best crops to grow for your your garden, but
also the best varieties of those crops and who goes first?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Mark, That's a broad subject.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Sure, yes, you know, you pick what you like to grow,
of course, and want to eat, but also look at
how long a maturity these things are. So you can
get in trouble with certain coal crops that are meant
for the Pacific Northwest, you plan them now and the
overwinter them and then they do their thing in the
late winter early spring. So that's one reasoneration. Yeah. And
(19:26):
you know, as far as sources, there's trialing and you know,
all kinds of publications to look to and the seek
a lot of good seak callogs have excellent information. They
really do when and how and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Jenny, your thoughts on the matter.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah, so that is I could probably spend over an
hour on.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
This topic if we have the time.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I think it is like Mark said, it's always choose
what you like to grow, because what's the point and
what you like to eat, because it like, yeah, if
you hate tomatoes, why you grow them. But echoing his
sentiment about.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
There's a lot of resources out there, I.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Think one of the easiest ones for people that are
just jumping into this to use might be the All
American Selections website because, unlike.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Other trial.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Trials that I'm aware of, what they do is actually
break their winners down into regions.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
In the United States.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So they have i think like a Midwest and a
Northeast and a Southeast, and they have people all over
people and seed companies all over the country trialing and
growing these things and providing feedback. And so when they
see something doing really really well in the Midwest, but
maybe it didn't perform so well on the California coast,
they will designate.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It as such.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And so I think that's an easy place to start
when you're really looking for varieties that are geared towards
your specific growing area.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And that again is all American Selections, sometimes referred to
simply as AAS, and you can google that. They have
a great website for all this information.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I think the listeners are pretty familiar with that organization
since we've had them all we've had.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, if they were listening before, they're they're familiar with AAS.
And but yeah, and then you know, a lot of
the universities have trials too, and and of course you
can most of that information is accessible online. And the
closer that university is to you, the better it's, the
more relevant it's going to be.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
And trial and error, too is a great way to
figure things out at But yeah, I know, I know,
But I had this community guard where I have my
primary vegetable garden. These young whip, these young.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Folks whipper snaps.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Now they're not whipper strappers yet, they have never gardened
in their life, and they come out with all this
enthusiasm and plant these crazy things, and sometimes they even
surprise me how well things do. So you just never know.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, you can get cynical and say wow, that that'll
never work, and then lo and behold, somebody surprises cynical.
That's a good it's a good word. I've become cynical.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Yeah, that's very, very sim that's easy.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
What's tricky too, related to that is our our weather
has been so nuts here, I mean within the last
decade or so, that sometimes things will work for me
that I like you said, I'd already written them off,
like there's no way that's going to work in my season,
and it actually will because the weather does something really unexpected,
or my frost comes late, or you know, what have you.
So I think the trial and experimentation part is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I'm talking to other say, talking to other.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Gardeners, especially for the youngers, to talk to the whole
guys like Mark.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Yeah, yeah, over the fence, you know, I talked to.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Them, nodding with your your pipe and uh.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, so uh yeah, and they often don't well they
don't listen, but uh and then the heat of the
summer comes and the weeds start really growing, that thins
few out.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
But yeah then I yeah, well, I guess we'll go
ahead and take a break again. We'll carry on this
conversation with more talk about fruits and vegetables with Mark
Wessell and Jenna Bonarant in just a few minutes. I'm
here with Mark Wessel and Jenna Bonarant and we're talking
fruits and vegetables and it's been a great conversation so far. Both.
(23:21):
Thank you to both of you for being here. Your
knowledge is so impressive and I think this will be
so beneficial to our listeners. Anyone trying to start a
vegetable garden, and one of the things about starting a
vegetable garden is starting seeds in the basement under lights
in the wintertime. First of all, how do you know
(23:41):
what plants work for that best? And how do you
know when to start them inside?
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Well, let me jump in here, scotton, you got it.
You think you know what works best, and then you
see people starting seeds inside that you would never imagine,
like corn well corns one thing, but carrots or radishes.
But I mean, I the active starting seeds is just
so fulfilling anyway, especially but yeah, in the winter it
(24:10):
just gets you doing gardening. But and it's more work.
But anymore, I'm starting more and more, even in the
individual plugs, especially for early spring, because that way there
the weather's just bad out there. You get a head
start and then you know they get off to a
better start. It's more work planting them and everything, it
(24:31):
really is. But boy, the results are that it's great.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But you didn't answer a single question. I asked how
I forgot I'm old, remember, how do you know when
when to start plants? And which ones do work best under?
But go ahead, Jenna would be better anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I do. I do agree with Mark.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I actually find that I am starting more and more
things inside, even those things that can be direct so
fairly easily when I'm seeing a lot went well, So
you were me like I could spend all day going
through every crop, but generally so my cool season crops
for the spring, So think things like brassicas are broccoli, cabbage, kale, cauliflower,
cool robbie, my celery, my lettuces, my spinach. I'm starting
(25:16):
most of that in typically mid February indoors from seed,
and that's to aim for a transplant out.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
In early April. And you're so six, Mark, I am Zone.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Six, but my so what more importantly, my last spring
frost date is estimated at around May tenth. It was
a little It was about the seventh this year. Last
year it was super early. I think two weeks earlier
than normal. But I generally use May tenth as a gauge.
So those crops I want to get out a good
six to eight weeks before that last frost. And it's
(25:47):
a little tricky in this area of the of the
world because you're battling, like Mark said, like terrible spring weather.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
We're hot, we're cold, we're snowing, we're raining. It like
there's no great time.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
But what I've found is if I can get those
plants out early April, and then I typically have to
baby them along. I use frostcloth, I use shade cloth,
all this other stuff, I'm almost assured to crop a
harvest no matter what the weather does. If I wait
any later, we're often getting too warm and things will
want to start bolting.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
If I go too early.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
It's too cold, and my seedlings get stressed out and
sometimes we'll die or again they'll bolt or button. So yeah,
that's I mean, there's some there's some nuance there. Not
everything is mid February, but I'd say the big bulk
of when I start is mid February, and then for
my warm season crops, so think the you know, tomatoes, peppers.
(26:41):
I even start a lot of my kuk curbets like
cucumbers and squash and melons indoors. That's kind of a
staggered schedule where like my peppers I will start, I
actually start, there's a little later than many folks do.
I've heard many people in my area start in February.
I'm usually about mid March for peppers and eggplants, and
that that's again aiming for a transplant out after that
(27:02):
last frost eate.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I always say that I'm going to get out in
mid May.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I'm usually planting Memorial Day weekend or like this year,
it will be into the probably the first week of June.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
At the rate I'm going.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The problem is too early is you can have big
plants in your basement and the difficulty of trying to
keep enough light on them.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
And yeah, I'm always encouraging people.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
To hold off back. It's a tempting, tempting.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I just evidently started too soon. It was my normal time.
But then May turned cold, cold and wet, and here
I am. I'm still waiting to plant a few things
and now it's right and again, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I'm struggling with that too.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I thought I was going to get everything out in
the next couple of days, and I don't think that's
going to happen. And I've got Yeah, my peppers are
actually probably too big at this point.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I started tomatoes really late.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
This year, and I'm actually glad I did, because in
two weeks they'll be a week or two they'll be
ready to go. But tomatoes anymore, I never start earlier
than April first, because they just grow so fast.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Let's talk about your light setups, because I think that's
something that just doesn't get talked about very much. Everybody
has their own little basement laboratory and their equipment. What
do you guys find? What kind of lights are best
to use for this? How do you set it up?
Do you set it up with timers? What do you think?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Well, I have just a super simple two fluorescent light fixtures,
well four on two layers the daylight. I'd like to
upgrade to LED yeah, and then I have them on
a timer and for things that need extra heat to germinate,
I have a small heating match. So that's really and
it's on one of those stainless steel rollable racks. That's
(28:43):
my host down setup.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Do you set your time or to twelve hours on.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Fourteen sixteen hours sixteen probably on? Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, Jenna? What about you?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So I actually have I think a similar setup to
Market's on a stainless steel rolling thing about like three
three layers of lights, and I actually just upgraded this
season to LEDs. I found some that were like the
plug and play because this rate is actually yeah, what
my unit takes was fluorescent, but I noticed that I've
had this thing for probably five or six years, and
(29:17):
the fluorescence were getting really dim.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I felt like they were really weak.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Plus they're not as energy efficient, so I switched them
out this year. I'm pretty happy with the lights I have.
They're just like a full spectrum adjustable LED light and
I have mine actually.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
On a twelve on twelve off.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Just on a timer, like I think they the like
Mark said, the plants, if you do it on a
fourteen sixteen, that is beneficial. But I just I've always
done twelve and that seems to work fine.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So you kind of just a color on it.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
It's the intensity.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Oh, the intensity, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So sometimes I'll sometimes I'll start them out, like when
I switched kind of mid season from my fluorescence to
the and on one row I messed up. I put
them on the LEDs on the full intensity actually sunburned.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So so if we're planting directly in the garden, let's
start with the cold season crops. You know when do
you know you came out there with uh, you know,
lettuces and spinach and peas, the things that really like
it cool.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Well, I'd say, don't listen to some advice you read,
like the whole planting year peas or potatoes on Saint
Patrick's Day. Really, you really need to let the soil
warm up a little. You can't. You have to dial
back your enthusiasm a little, or she'll just put stuff
in a rot if it's seed or you know, gets stunted,
(30:46):
or you know, the it'll bolt because it got too
much chill.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Yeah, because it thinks it's it's a biennial plant, so
it thinks it's gone through winter, and I guess that's why.
And then like your coal crop so often do that Jenna, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I think related to that, like planting on Saint Patrick's Day,
That's something that I've always heard and it can't be
trusted in our area at least.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But something that.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I've been really really interested in lately is using phenology
to determine when to plant annual plants. And there's a
lot of old advice out there, like you look at
when when dandelions bloom it's time to plant potatoes, or
when your day lily's bloom you can plant out tomatoes
and peppers, and that a lot of that advice is
seems to be based on plants that are not native
(31:36):
to the area. So something that I'm trying to do
is actually record when my native plants are going through
certain life cycles and see if I can correlate that
to planting of annual crops. So that's kind of a
long term project. But in the meantime, what I do
notice is back to the no till thing. Since I've
stopped tilling, I have a lot of volunteers that pop
(31:59):
up in my garden, and it's actually been really handy
because I can pay attention to when certain things are
germinating and sprouting on their own and know that my
conditions are right to go ahead and plant or transplant
the crops that I'm doing this year.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
For instance, I'm noticing.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Right now that my Holy Basel, which self seeds like crazy,
is starting to germinate and it will. That's a very
very frost tender, warm, warm, heat loving plant, and so
I pretty much know that it's safe to go out
with my tomatoes and my peppers and those you know
crost tender other frost tender crops.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But in general, like Mark said.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Paying attention to soil temperature is so important, paying attention
to like long term forecast, and it just goes crop
by crop because you'll learn over time that some of
them can tolerate those temperature swings and variances, some of
them are very picky about it, and I think just
paying attention to all of those factors is really important.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's probably best to air on the safe side.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, that's a great observation about when well follow you
with phonology. I love that. And when the seedlings of.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
The crop are sprouting, Yeah, which is phenology good, Jenna,
a very good one. And yeah, you know, I guess
some of that information is out there, but man, the
more it can be collected, uh to where you know
it's out there that you can rely on because you know,
the plants, it seems like they really know better when
to be planted or to germinate than than we can
(33:27):
ever guess.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Now on the phenology note, I'm going to distract us
just a little bit, but it has to do a
vegetable guard at least, don't I was, Yeah, I had,
you know, I do these questions and answers for Gurney's
and one was about squashbind borers and I was looking
at their growing degree days when they come out, and
it's timed in our area with Catalpa trees blooming, which
(33:49):
just happened. It's happening now.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, that's really cool stuff.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
It is cool.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
When it comes to planting seeds, you know, either inside
or I mean the seed packets are really pretty good
about telling you spacing and depth and things like that.
But there's nuance to it as well. Right, some people
don't see their crops in rows, So you kind of
have to, you know, think for yourself and experiment a bit.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I often overseed and then thin later. Yes, seeds are cheap, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jenna,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And what I've noticed with the seed I mean, honestly,
I completely ignore seed packets, but.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I know that a lot of people look at them.
What I've noticed is that a.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Lot of the seed packet information is coming from old
agricultural guidelines, so very much that like space this far apart,
in rows this far apart, and like you said, so
many people aren't necessarily gardening with that style anymore, so
I think. Plus again, there's so many, so many nuances
with all gardening when depending on the climate that you
(35:03):
live in, the disease pressure that you have, sometimes you
can get away with planting a lot closer than you
can in other areas. So my prime example is here
in my gardens, I always give things an enormous amount
of space because A I have the room, but b
because we have so many issues with fungal and bacterial
pathogens in this area. That love's planting situations where there
(35:26):
is little airflow, where you're having you know, like they
can move amongst the plants easier. There's not just limited
air circulation is a big problem. So if I can
space those plants further apart, my plants will stay healthier.
If you're living someplace that doesn't have those disease pressures,
I think you can get away with planting something like
(35:47):
tomatoes or cucumbers or squash much much closer and not
have those same kind of issues. So taking those things
into account is really important too. And I think over
time you'll start to as as folks garden longer and longer,
you just start to get a feel for Okay, I
have the best results when I plant you know this
distance apart or do this. But I think with some
(36:09):
crops it's you kind of like, for instance, root crops.
If you plant carrots or beats or radishes super close
together where they don't have space to form a root,
you're not going to have good success. But I think
with some crops you have a little more wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, we've got just a minute before break, and so
I know we are throwing a lot of information out
there at folks, and probably too fast to write down
notes and things. And I do want to say that
you know we're going to have the two of you back,
and we'll take calls for that. But also this show
is available as a podcast on any source of podcasts,
(36:47):
or you can just google let's Garden with Scott Berline
and find it. But you can go back and listen
to some of these things and catch up a little bit.
We are going to take a break. You are listening
to That's Garden with Scott Berline. We'll be back in
just a few minutes with Mark Wessel and Jenna Bonero.
Gardens Alive. And now we're joined by Jenna bonorant YouTube
influencers not the right word, but presence who does has
great background with vegetable knowledge, has worked in the industry
for a long time, grew up with all of this. Jenna,
(00:21):
Welcome aboard. How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi? I'm good. How are you, Scott?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm doing all right. Mark's a little queasy. I think
he's looking bad actually, but he must have tied one
on again last night. It's a week.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh no, Mark, not again.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
His reputation precedes him. Jenna, you do these great YouTube
videos that are extensive, and I honestly I looked at
a few of them last night, and you know, eight
thirteen minute videos where you're just talking. It doesn't look
like it's pre written, and it's flawless, and you take
(01:04):
on a topic and you carry it from beginning to end.
And I watched the one on beats, and it's like,
by the end of that, if you had any questions
at all about beats, you were paying attention.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah, And that's that's something that I've kind of grappled
with because, as I think most of us are aware,
in the world, particularly of social media, there's generally people
gravitate towards short and sweet like there, we don't have
a long attention span. A lot of people don't want that,
they don't want to watch a twenty minute video. But
(01:40):
the way my brain works, I like, I want to
know everything about whatever the thing is that I'm curious about,
So I struggle to.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Do videos that are condensed. And yeah, I tend.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
To just go all in on a topic and I
want to, like exactly like you said, I try to
foresee any questions that anybody might have had ever about
that particularly particular thing and answer it in the video.
And I think there is a certain type of gardener
that definitely appreciates that. I've gotten really good feedback from.
(02:17):
I noticed that I tend to have the same people
over and over asking questions and responding to the video,
and I think that they really resonate with that style.
So yeah, that's that's what I stick with because that's
what would be important to me if I were the
one seeking out this information.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So that's what I want to put out into the world.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, and you, like I said before, you've got this
background that actually, you know allows you to give good information,
not just what's trending or what you saw on AI
or you know somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
You've done all of this, Yes, I have, And I
mean every every gardening season is a learning experience, so
and I am constantly experiment with new techniques and ideas
and all different products, just because I always want to
be able to pass that information onto other gardeners.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I think through my career.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I've just had to research and learn so much.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And what's really.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Helpful is I think again, through my career, I've been
able to discern which sources are the best for things
that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So there are a lot of university research sites.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
That I rely on and particular resources that I find
to be really really helpful. And I think that's something
where the world of the Internet can get a little
bit overwhelming because there's so much information, and how do
you know what's accurate? And I think being able to
figure out what is truly accurate, what is truly a
good source versus Yeah, like you said, what's just following
(03:50):
the trending or what is written by AI is really
really helpful in this field.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, Well, today's show is devoted entirely to fruits and
vegetables growing them at home. And I can't think of
two better people to have with me today than you
and Mark. And the first thing on our agenda is
to talk about soil prep garden prep. So let's get
started on that. You know, everybody in the world, even
(04:18):
if they don't have clay soil, things, they have clay
soil or poor soil. And so what do you do
to to improve your soil if you need to before
you start a vegetable garden?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Jump in so I know you just said everyone thinks
they have clay soil. We here in my area of Ohio,
we do legitimately very heavy clay soil. I mean it's
the kind that you can My kids when they were younger,
used to go out in the like mudholes and dig
up a handful of soil and make pottery.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Out of it and let it air dry because it
is so rich in clay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Sort of like a block of cheese like clay.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yes, yes, exactly, and so that is it definitely is
does present a challenge, But honestly, after years of working
with it, I don't know that I would trade it
for any except.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
For maybe, you know, perfect loamy soil.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
But clay has a lot of its own benefits in
that many times it is very mineral rich. I actually
love the fact that it can hold water because especially
in the last several seasons where we've had drought conditions,
that's actually been a good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
For my garden.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
But it definitely needs some TLC. And so what I
find here I garden primarily at my own home. I'm
in midwestern part of Ohio and at my parents.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Just like five miles down the road.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
What I will do when I start a new plot
is generally, I know a lot of people are strictly
no till but I find that with this heavy clay
soil in particular, it actually can be helpful to start
with a one time tillage. And sometimes if your clay
is really really heavy, people will actually suggest doing like
ripping of the soil where you get down even deeper
(06:07):
into that hard pan layer. It's just to open that
up because one of the tricks with clay is it
is so heavy that oxygen and water can't move through
that soil texture, so that one time tillage or the
ripping of the soil can open up the soil a
little bit so that it can be aerated, and then
I generally like to rely on.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
My go to amendment is animal manure, and that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Can be a little bit tricky because you really have
to find a safe source of animal manore. You don't
want anything where the animals have been fed or pastured on,
anything sprayed with persistent herbicides, because those can if you
put that manure on your garden, it can kill your plants.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So knowing your farmer or having your own animals is
really the best option.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But I find that animal manures and now it's going
to vary. Some of them will need to be composted,
some of them won't. My favorite is actually the manor
that we've gotten from dairy, our dairy farmer friends. I
apply that and I find that it just works. It's
magic on the heavy soil. It helps to increase microbial life,
(07:13):
It helps to improve soil tilt, it helps to improve fertility,
It helps to kind of unlock that that really sticky
texture over time. The amount of earthworms that you see
in a pile of calor is phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Really like that all starts to work really combined to
really improve the soil jenna. We're gonna have to take
a break. When we come back, we'll carry on this conversation.
You're listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin, We'll be right.
You're listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin. I am Scott.
I'm here with Mark Wessel, my good friend from Gardens Alive,
and with Jenna Bonorant independent consultant and YouTuber. Both are
(07:57):
vegetable fruit and vegetable experts and are going to just
focus on those things today. Mark, you had something you
wanted to say.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Well, I want to echo Jenna's admiration for clay soil.
It is problematic in certain environmental you know, stressors like
a lot of water, but it does hold nutrients and moisture.
Not all of us have access to animal manure. I
get one load, one pickup truck load a year from
a friend, but other than that, I have to rely
(08:25):
on other inputs like compost straight company. I mean, clay
is great, especially when you get that organic matter in
there and you get dry.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
The much rather have clay to work from and build
up than like a sandy soil which holds well.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I you know, I go to our Michigan facility, which
is like beach sand and it's great. You can after
a downpour get out there and work, but in a
few days it's dry as a bone.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Again.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, but one thing I like to do, if I
have the time, is add just a thick layer leave.
So I have an area at our house that was
just and just that brick making clay. You put a
thick layer of you know, leaves on there, and those
microbes and worms within a year they just transform that soil.
It really is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, it's amazing what organic matter can do and that
and we can't emphasize enough how important it is if
you're going to garden in any way, shape or form,
to start out at least with good soil to do
what you have to to make it friable. Good rich soil.
(09:32):
And again, the clay has the nutrients, it just needs
the poor spaces so air and oxygen can get in
there and the microbial action. Jenna, Yeah, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think I yes, like a thousand percent agree that
that soil is that getting that soil healthy makes everything
that you're ever going to do in the garden so
much easier. Your plants will be healthier, happier, your work
is easier.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It is so important, and sometimes I think people want to.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Rush that step because you know, you get excited about
garden and you just want to put everything in. But
if you can spend a little time giving that soiltlc,
it pays off in dividends in the end. And I
with Mark Mark's point about leaves, I think that is
a g I also agree. I love leaf mulch, and
I think that's very accessible to almost everyone. Right, like
(10:26):
you either have your own leaves. A lot of communities
offer like free leaf mult or free leaf mold at
the end of the season, and it really is gardener's gold.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It is amazing stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Nice thing about a vegetable garden for the most part,
it's almost entirely annual. Plants too, is that you should
start out building your soil, but you can keep adding
to it over time. But at a certain point, no,
I don't I'm vague on this, but at a certain
point you can have too much organic matter. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
That is yes, that is you can plus the ad
of certain things, you'll get excesses and nutrients. It starts
getting You really need to do a soil test every
few years because if you build up like your phosphorus.
You know, that stuff doesn't leach out. It's there unless
until you pull a crop off. So you do have
(11:17):
to be careful with or you know, adding organic matter.
There are some.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Drawbacks, Jenna. What else do you have to add regarding
you know, soil prep. You know, should we mulch our
plants in a vegetable garden.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Oh? Absolutely yes.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
There are going to be caveats to that, as there
is with everything in gardening. I think sometimes if you're having,
for instance, a very wet spring, I will hold off
on the mulch. Sometimes natural mulches can attract past like slugs.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So again in that case, I will tend.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
To hold off on the mulch till it gets a
little warmer and drier. But in general, absolutely, I always
mulch all of my plants, and I to use chops,
chopped leaves, leaf mulch, or grass clippings for around my
actual annual plant garden, you know, vegetables and flowers and
that type of thing. Sometimes I'll use ramial wood chips
(12:12):
around my perennial plantings, but I don't like those in
the vegetable garden on the actual beds. But I find
that using those again, especially grass clippings and leaf mulch
in the annual garden beds, you get so many benefits.
So like Mark alluded to, with the leaves, you you
get that addition of organic matter, You encourage earthworms, You
(12:34):
help feed the microbial life in the soil. But also
those mulches are going to retain soil, keep soil moisture
more consistent.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Which is very important.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They're going to often the soil cooler, which in these hot,
intense summers that we've been having, is very important. And yeah,
you just you end up watering lush, your plants are happier,
and as that break down, you're getting more organic matter
in your.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Soil NUTRIENTSA do you fine with grass clippings that can
get too hot and matt down.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
So it is interesting and I do get that question
a lot when I apply grass clippings, and I will
apply them fresh, like I will cut and bag and
apply it immediately. We also when there's a lot of grass,
my husband will use the big bagger and just put
a big pile behind the barn and that will sit
for a long time, and I'll use it as I
need it. So the pile itself will get intensely hot,
(13:26):
so you'll see like smoke rolling off of it. I
go it, I have to wear gloves to get in
there because it's too hot for me to touch with
my bare hands. But when I apply it on my
garden beds in a you know, typically about a two
to four inch thick layer, I have never seen any
issue with the overheating or causing any harm to my plants.
(13:47):
I think just because it's in a layer of thinner
layer like that, it tends to cool off relatively quickly,
and I don't have the issues that I have when
it's in a thicker pile.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I've only with grass clippings. One thing I'm careful with
is putting it right near young seedlings. I remember an
arugula planting I had. I put it down in a
thin layer and it cooled off quickly. I don't know
if it off gas, p ammonia, or what, but it
kind of burned those plants and set them back. And
the one other issue I consider when using grass clippings,
(14:18):
because I love them they smother everything really well, is
some plants. I don't like it on my peppers as
much because it's a good source of nitrogen and it
gets them sometimes growing a little too vigorously at the
at the expense of fruit production.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Let's talk for a minute. Well, we've got a couple
of minutes left here before the break. About till versus
no till, because I kind of followed school. People have
been tilling for a million years. It's always worked. You know,
it's the only way to incorporate deeper, more organg matter,
if that's even necessary over time. You know, what are
your feelings, both of you on tilling in non or
(15:01):
in no Tell Marco.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
First, I'm it just depends on your gardening style. But
some things, especially for smaller seeded things, I practice both
kind of a combination. Tilling makes a nice seed bed
and you just get to start over with a blank slate.
And you know, when you have a no till and
(15:24):
say you have a lot of mulch on there, sometimes
the soil just stays too wet. You have to pull
it back, let it dry out and warm up as well,
because it keeps your soil much much cooler. So there's
I think there's great benefits for both. I mean, when
you till, you're just you're you know, you're opening that
soil up to your own seeds you plant, but weeds
(15:46):
everything else for sure, Yeah, Jenna.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I I would probably mirror what Mark has said in
that there are there are benefits.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
There are arguments for both styles.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I think, and it's tricky because it depends. Again, it's
so much on your location, your environment, your weather, your
soil type as to what is going to be the
best for.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
You, your time like your time and your energy and
what equipment you have available.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
So there are all these caveats, right, But I think
my own personal strategy has been that I aim for
as minimal soil disruption as possible because I want to
be focused on allowing that soil web, that microbial life
in the soil to be as robust and.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Healthy as possible.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
And every time you disrupt the soil, you are disrupting
that that life. So, as I mentioned before, I will
often do a one time tillage, but then after that
I will graduate to just using a broad fork.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
That has been a tool that's been really, really useful
in my garden.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Again, if you're doing a huge, huge garden, that's tricky,
but the broad fork helps open up that clay without
actually turning the soil over.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So you're getting less disruption.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
To describe what it is, and I describe what broad
fork is because I don't think most people know soly.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
There's actually the broad fork that I use is called
a modified broad fork, and my brother in law, who's
a welder, actually made it, and it is essentially something
that is created specifically for heavy clay, and so it
actually has a lever that helps move the times through
the soil.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So it's a little bit different than if you were
to just google a broad fork.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
What you'll see if you just say google broad fork
is it's a tool that has I mean, basically it
looks like a giant fork. It's got times that you
push down into the soil.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
The idea is you kind of step on that, wiggle
it back and.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Forth, open up the soil, and then just pull the
fork straight out. So again, all you're doing is just
opening up the soil rather than like flipping it over
like a shovel or a tiller.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah and that. Yeah, so it just you're you're you're
opening up the soil for air and water to penetrate.
You're listing let's guarden with Scott Berlin and we'll be
back at just a few minutes. It's all fruits and vegetables.
Today I'm talking with Mark Wessel from gardens Alive and
Jenna Bonnorant from YouTube. She does YouTube videos on vegetables
(18:07):
which you just got to look at. And Jenna, how
do they how do people find that on YouTube?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Probably the easiest thing is just to search grow fully
with Jenna and my channel should pop up very good.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Grow Fully with Jenna altogether, grow fully g r O
W f U l L Y with Jenna, which I
love that title. Love that. So let's talk a little
bit on how people you know, you get the catalog
in the wintertime and everything looks so cool and so
good and you want to try everything. But how does
(18:41):
a gardener, you know, especially regionally, how do they look
at that catalog in the wintertime and determine not only
the best crops to grow for your your garden, but
also the best varieties of those crops and who goes first?
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Mark, That's a broad subject.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Now.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Sure, yes, you know, you pick what you like to grow,
of course, and want to eat, but also look at
how long a maturity these things are. So you can
get in trouble with certain coal crops that are meant
for the Pacific Northwest, you plan them now and the
overwinter them and then they do their thing in the
late winter early spring. So that's one reasoneration. Yeah. And
(19:26):
you know, as far as sources, there's trialing and you know,
all kinds of publications to look to and the seek
a lot of good seak callogs have excellent information. They
really do when and how and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Jenny, your thoughts on the matter.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah, so that is I could probably spend over an
hour on.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
This topic if we have the time.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I think it is like Mark said, it's always choose
what you like to grow, because what's the point and
what you like to eat, because it like, yeah, if
you hate tomatoes, why you grow them. But echoing his
sentiment about.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
There's a lot of resources out there, I.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Think one of the easiest ones for people that are
just jumping into this to use might be the All
American Selections website because, unlike.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Other trial.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Trials that I'm aware of, what they do is actually
break their winners down into regions.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
In the United States.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So they have i think like a Midwest and a
Northeast and a Southeast, and they have people all over
people and seed companies all over the country trialing and
growing these things and providing feedback. And so when they
see something doing really really well in the Midwest, but
maybe it didn't perform so well on the California coast,
they will designate.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It as such.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And so I think that's an easy place to start
when you're really looking for varieties that are geared towards
your specific growing area.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And that again is all American Selections, sometimes referred to
simply as AAS, and you can google that. They have
a great website for all this information.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I think the listeners are pretty familiar with that organization
since we've had them all we've had.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, if they were listening before, they're they're familiar with AAS.
And but yeah, and then you know, a lot of
the universities have trials too, and and of course you
can most of that information is accessible online. And the
closer that university is to you, the better it's, the
more relevant it's going to be.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
And trial and error, too is a great way to
figure things out at But yeah, I know, I know,
But I had this community guard where I have my
primary vegetable garden. These young whip, these young.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Folks whipper snaps.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Now they're not whipper strappers yet, they have never gardened
in their life, and they come out with all this
enthusiasm and plant these crazy things, and sometimes they even
surprise me how well things do. So you just never know.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, you can get cynical and say wow, that that'll
never work, and then lo and behold, somebody surprises cynical.
That's a good it's a good word. I've become cynical.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Yeah, that's very, very sim that's easy.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
What's tricky too, related to that is our our weather
has been so nuts here, I mean within the last
decade or so, that sometimes things will work for me
that I like you said, I'd already written them off,
like there's no way that's going to work in my season,
and it actually will because the weather does something really unexpected,
or my frost comes late, or you know, what have you.
So I think the trial and experimentation part is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I'm talking to other say, talking to other.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Gardeners, especially for the youngers, to talk to the whole
guys like Mark.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Yeah, yeah, over the fence, you know, I talked to.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Them, nodding with your your pipe and uh.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, so uh yeah, and they often don't well they
don't listen, but uh and then the heat of the
summer comes and the weeds start really growing, that thins
few out.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
But yeah then I yeah, well, I guess we'll go
ahead and take a break again. We'll carry on this
conversation with more talk about fruits and vegetables with Mark
Wessell and Jenna Bonarant in just a few minutes. I'm
here with Mark Wessel and Jenna Bonarant and we're talking
fruits and vegetables and it's been a great conversation so far. Both.
(23:21):
Thank you to both of you for being here. Your
knowledge is so impressive and I think this will be
so beneficial to our listeners. Anyone trying to start a
vegetable garden, and one of the things about starting a
vegetable garden is starting seeds in the basement under lights
in the wintertime. First of all, how do you know
(23:41):
what plants work for that best? And how do you
know when to start them inside?
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Well, let me jump in here, scotton, you got it.
You think you know what works best, and then you
see people starting seeds inside that you would never imagine,
like corn well corns one thing, but carrots or radishes.
But I mean, I the active starting seeds is just
so fulfilling anyway, especially but yeah, in the winter it
(24:10):
just gets you doing gardening. But and it's more work.
But anymore, I'm starting more and more, even in the
individual plugs, especially for early spring, because that way there
the weather's just bad out there. You get a head
start and then you know they get off to a
better start. It's more work planting them and everything, it
(24:31):
really is. But boy, the results are that it's great.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
But you didn't answer a single question. I asked how
I forgot I'm old, remember, how do you know when
when to start plants? And which ones do work best under?
But go ahead, Jenna would be better anyway.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I do. I do agree with Mark.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I actually find that I am starting more and more
things inside, even those things that can be direct so
fairly easily when I'm seeing a lot went well, So
you were me like I could spend all day going
through every crop, but generally so my cool season crops
for the spring, So think things like brassicas are broccoli, cabbage, kale, cauliflower,
cool robbie, my celery, my lettuces, my spinach. I'm starting
(25:16):
most of that in typically mid February indoors from seed,
and that's to aim for a transplant out.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
In early April. And you're so six, Mark, I am Zone.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Six, but my so what more importantly, my last spring
frost date is estimated at around May tenth. It was
a little It was about the seventh this year. Last
year it was super early. I think two weeks earlier
than normal. But I generally use May tenth as a gauge.
So those crops I want to get out a good
six to eight weeks before that last frost. And it's
(25:47):
a little tricky in this area of the of the
world because you're battling, like Mark said, like terrible spring weather.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
We're hot, we're cold, we're snowing, we're raining. It like
there's no great time.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
But what I've found is if I can get those
plants out early April, and then I typically have to
baby them along. I use frostcloth, I use shade cloth,
all this other stuff, I'm almost assured to crop a
harvest no matter what the weather does. If I wait
any later, we're often getting too warm and things will
want to start bolting.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
If I go too early.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
It's too cold, and my seedlings get stressed out and
sometimes we'll die or again they'll bolt or button. So yeah,
that's I mean, there's some there's some nuance there. Not
everything is mid February, but I'd say the big bulk
of when I start is mid February, and then for
my warm season crops, so think the you know, tomatoes, peppers.
(26:41):
I even start a lot of my kuk curbets like
cucumbers and squash and melons indoors. That's kind of a
staggered schedule where like my peppers I will start, I
actually start, there's a little later than many folks do.
I've heard many people in my area start in February.
I'm usually about mid March for peppers and eggplants, and
that that's again aiming for a transplant out after that
(27:02):
last frost eate.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I always say that I'm going to get out in
mid May.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I'm usually planting Memorial Day weekend or like this year,
it will be into the probably the first week of June.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
At the rate I'm going.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The problem is too early is you can have big
plants in your basement and the difficulty of trying to
keep enough light on them.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
And yeah, I'm always encouraging people.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
To hold off back. It's a tempting, tempting.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I just evidently started too soon. It was my normal time.
But then May turned cold, cold and wet, and here
I am. I'm still waiting to plant a few things
and now it's right and again, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I'm struggling with that too.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
I thought I was going to get everything out in
the next couple of days, and I don't think that's
going to happen. And I've got Yeah, my peppers are
actually probably too big at this point.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I started tomatoes really late.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
This year, and I'm actually glad I did, because in
two weeks they'll be a week or two they'll be
ready to go. But tomatoes anymore, I never start earlier
than April first, because they just grow so fast.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Let's talk about your light setups, because I think that's
something that just doesn't get talked about very much. Everybody
has their own little basement laboratory and their equipment. What
do you guys find? What kind of lights are best
to use for this? How do you set it up?
Do you set it up with timers? What do you think?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Well, I have just a super simple two fluorescent light fixtures,
well four on two layers the daylight. I'd like to
upgrade to LED yeah, and then I have them on
a timer and for things that need extra heat to germinate,
I have a small heating match. So that's really and
it's on one of those stainless steel rollable racks. That's
(28:43):
my host down setup.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Do you set your time or to twelve hours on.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Fourteen sixteen hours sixteen probably on? Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, Jenna? What about you?
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So I actually have I think a similar setup to
Market's on a stainless steel rolling thing about like three
three layers of lights, and I actually just upgraded this
season to LEDs. I found some that were like the
plug and play because this rate is actually yeah, what
my unit takes was fluorescent, but I noticed that I've
had this thing for probably five or six years, and
(29:17):
the fluorescence were getting really dim.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
I felt like they were really weak.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Plus they're not as energy efficient, so I switched them
out this year. I'm pretty happy with the lights I have.
They're just like a full spectrum adjustable LED light and
I have mine actually.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
On a twelve on twelve off.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Just on a timer, like I think they the like
Mark said, the plants, if you do it on a
fourteen sixteen, that is beneficial. But I just I've always
done twelve and that seems to work fine.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So you kind of just a color on it.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
It's the intensity.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Oh, the intensity, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So sometimes I'll sometimes I'll start them out, like when
I switched kind of mid season from my fluorescence to
the and on one row I messed up. I put
them on the LEDs on the full intensity actually sunburned.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So so if we're planting directly in the garden, let's
start with the cold season crops. You know when do
you know you came out there with uh, you know,
lettuces and spinach and peas, the things that really like
it cool.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Well, I'd say, don't listen to some advice you read,
like the whole planting year peas or potatoes on Saint
Patrick's Day. Really, you really need to let the soil
warm up a little. You can't. You have to dial
back your enthusiasm a little, or she'll just put stuff
in a rot if it's seed or you know, gets stunted,
(30:46):
or you know, the it'll bolt because it got too
much chill.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Yeah, because it thinks it's it's a biennial plant, so
it thinks it's gone through winter, and I guess that's why.
And then like your coal crop so often do that Jenna, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I think related to that, like planting on Saint Patrick's Day,
That's something that I've always heard and it can't be
trusted in our area at least.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But something that.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I've been really really interested in lately is using phenology
to determine when to plant annual plants. And there's a
lot of old advice out there, like you look at
when when dandelions bloom it's time to plant potatoes, or
when your day lily's bloom you can plant out tomatoes
and peppers, and that a lot of that advice is
seems to be based on plants that are not native
(31:36):
to the area. So something that I'm trying to do
is actually record when my native plants are going through
certain life cycles and see if I can correlate that
to planting of annual crops. So that's kind of a
long term project. But in the meantime, what I do
notice is back to the no till thing. Since I've
stopped tilling, I have a lot of volunteers that pop
(31:59):
up in my garden, and it's actually been really handy
because I can pay attention to when certain things are
germinating and sprouting on their own and know that my
conditions are right to go ahead and plant or transplant
the crops that I'm doing this year.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
For instance, I'm noticing.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Right now that my Holy Basel, which self seeds like crazy,
is starting to germinate and it will. That's a very
very frost tender, warm, warm, heat loving plant, and so
I pretty much know that it's safe to go out
with my tomatoes and my peppers and those you know
crost tender other frost tender crops.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
But in general, like Mark said.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Paying attention to soil temperature is so important, paying attention
to like long term forecast, and it just goes crop
by crop because you'll learn over time that some of
them can tolerate those temperature swings and variances, some of
them are very picky about it, and I think just
paying attention to all of those factors is really important.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's probably best to air on the safe side.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, that's a great observation about when well follow you
with phonology. I love that. And when the seedlings of.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
The crop are sprouting, Yeah, which is phenology good, Jenna,
a very good one. And yeah, you know, I guess
some of that information is out there, but man, the
more it can be collected, uh to where you know
it's out there that you can rely on because you know,
the plants, it seems like they really know better when
to be planted or to germinate than than we can
(33:27):
ever guess.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Now on the phenology note, I'm going to distract us
just a little bit, but it has to do a
vegetable guard at least, don't I was, Yeah, I had,
you know, I do these questions and answers for Gurney's
and one was about squashbind borers and I was looking
at their growing degree days when they come out, and
it's timed in our area with Catalpa trees blooming, which
(33:49):
just happened. It's happening now.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, that's really cool stuff.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
It is cool.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
When it comes to planting seeds, you know, either inside
or I mean the seed packets are really pretty good
about telling you spacing and depth and things like that.
But there's nuance to it as well. Right, some people
don't see their crops in rows, So you kind of
have to, you know, think for yourself and experiment a bit.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I often overseed and then thin later. Yes, seeds are cheap, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jenna,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
And what I've noticed with the seed I mean, honestly,
I completely ignore seed packets, but.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I know that a lot of people look at them.
What I've noticed is that a.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Lot of the seed packet information is coming from old
agricultural guidelines, so very much that like space this far apart,
in rows this far apart, and like you said, so
many people aren't necessarily gardening with that style anymore, so
I think. Plus again, there's so many, so many nuances
with all gardening when depending on the climate that you
(35:03):
live in, the disease pressure that you have, sometimes you
can get away with planting a lot closer than you
can in other areas. So my prime example is here
in my gardens, I always give things an enormous amount
of space because A I have the room, but b
because we have so many issues with fungal and bacterial
pathogens in this area. That love's planting situations where there
(35:26):
is little airflow, where you're having you know, like they
can move amongst the plants easier. There's not just limited
air circulation is a big problem. So if I can
space those plants further apart, my plants will stay healthier.
If you're living someplace that doesn't have those disease pressures,
I think you can get away with planting something like
(35:47):
tomatoes or cucumbers or squash much much closer and not
have those same kind of issues. So taking those things
into account is really important too. And I think over
time you'll start to as as folks garden longer and longer,
you just start to get a feel for Okay, I
have the best results when I plant you know this
distance apart or do this. But I think with some
(36:09):
crops it's you kind of like, for instance, root crops.
If you plant carrots or beats or radishes super close
together where they don't have space to form a root,
you're not going to have good success. But I think
with some crops you have a little more wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, we've got just a minute before break, and so
I know we are throwing a lot of information out
there at folks, and probably too fast to write down
notes and things. And I do want to say that
you know we're going to have the two of you back,
and we'll take calls for that. But also this show
is available as a podcast on any source of podcasts,
(36:47):
or you can just google let's Garden with Scott Berline
and find it. But you can go back and listen
to some of these things and catch up a little bit.
We are going to take a break. You are listening
to That's Garden with Scott Berline. We'll be back in
just a few minutes with Mark Wessel and Jenna Bonero.
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