Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On July fifteenth, members of Congress reintroduced in immigration reform
(00:02):
bill addressing large scale, systematic problems with our immigration system,
which has not received any major updates since the nineteen nineties.
The Dignity Act, it is being called, represents one of
the most sweeping attempts to modify the immigration system that
has been proposed in years.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
The bill is grounded in principle of trading increased enforcement
for changes of legal immigration system and a path to
legal status for undocumented immigrants or a longtime residents the country.
Joining us now on the KWA Common Spirit Health Hotline
is immigration and policy law professor from cu it's professor
Fioletta Chapin. Thank you so much for your time as always,
appreciate your time on Zoom as well as I was
(00:39):
kind of finaggling some things on my end.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Here, but your overall reaction.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We had Congressman Gay Evans on earlier this morning talking
about this Dignity Act and what we could see with
this bill. What's your biggest takeaways from it? Looking at
it from an immigration perspective, I.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Think it's a good place for bipartisan discussions to revive
around immigration policy. In this country. It certainly does strength
and border enforcement. It does limit asylum access for millions
of people who may need it in the future. But
what it really does is it really addresses this long
(01:15):
standing problem that we've had in the United States of
about eleven million undocumented people who have no pathway to
legal status, even if they've been living here for a
very long time, even if they have US citizen children,
and even if they've been paying taxes. So this bill
really addresses that group of people that has been here
for a long time that we know have a lot
(01:37):
of bipartisan support from employers first and foremost who rely
on these folks.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
For labor permanent legal status, but not citizenship. Professor, what
is the reason for that, Because we hear all the
time mean for you that some of these people really
are in limbo and in the shadows, and it doesn't
seem like not at least a pathway to citizenship still
kind of leaves them there.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, there's always a pathway to citizenship by lawful permanent
residency status. Everybody who is able to normalize their status
has to be a lawful permanent resident for some period
of time before they can even apply to become citizens.
Keeping someone as a lawful permanent resident allows them to work, travel,
(02:21):
and live essentially freely in the United States. That would
be wonderful for millions of people who have not been
able to, for example, work lawfully, but so have to
do so unlawfully, and for people who have been essentially
trapped in the United States and can't travel home even
if they want to for short periods of time. The
lawful permanent residency status is something that many people actually
(02:44):
live in for a very long time because you can
sort of renew it into perpetuity. Not allowing them to
become citizens deprives them eventually of the right to vote,
if that is something that is very important to them.
That one thing that citizenship really allows people is to
be safely in the United States with that with a
much less fear of removal. Even as a lawful permanent resident,
(03:06):
sometimes you can still be deported if you're convicted of
certain crimes. Once you become a citizen, that fear sort
of is assuaged, it goes away. And also, obviously, becoming
a citizen allows you to vote. Not every citizen votes,
not every naturalized citizen votes, but you could theoretically obviously
if you became a citizen as a lawful permanent resident,
(03:28):
though it goes a long way towards improving their situation,
which for years has left them without the ability to
work and travel freely.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
It looks like those going through this Dignity program, if approved,
would pay one thousand dollars and then an additional six
grand as they report to the Department of Homeland Security,
provide testimony and show that they're good standing of the community.
What's your thoughts and overall reaction to that.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Well, I've said for years, I think that a lot
of people would happily pay a sizable fine in order
to have lawful status here in the United States. And
so this is a way to sort of appease those
folks who understand that there are going to be some
costs born by the United States for people sort of
normalizing their status. I think a lot of that is
(04:14):
offset by the way that they sort of contribute to
the economy and live here in the US. This fine
is something that I think millions of undocumented people who
work will be able to do and would happily pay
in order for that to happen. I think what you
want to make sure is that in order to show
that they're in good standing, they need to have access
to resources, either a lawyer or some sort of advisory
(04:36):
group of people that can help them sort of put
that best case forward so that they know how to
do it. I would hope that any program like this
would be fair and transparent and allow people to easily
sort of meet this standard, which sounds pretty vague right now.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Speaking of standards, Professor, When we had the congressman on,
he went on to reiterate many times that this is
not amnesty. I did ask him though, but amnesty is
a distinct lea concept versus citizenship. So and he sort
of said, the reason they done is because people perceive
it that way. Maybe they perceive it that way, but
those are two distinct concepts, right, one getting citizenships and
(05:11):
one being forgiven for past immigration violations. Right.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
And I don't see this as amnesty. I do see
this as a way for folks who have been living
here unlawfully for a long time to essentially pay their dues, right,
pay the fine for having been here unlawfully, and then
normalize their status because it doesn't allow them full citizenship.
It's not amnesty. In the past when you know, President
Reagan gave nationwide amnesty that was clearly a pathway to citizenship,
(05:40):
and many people normalize their status and then became citizens afterwards,
and there was it was a forgiveness essentially. Now this
is a different pathway forward. It looks similar in some ways.
I mean, it certainly does allow people who've been undocumented
here to normalize their status, and that to some looks
like forgiveness. I see that as just smart. I see
(06:00):
it as smart, a sustainable move for the entire American public.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I wanted to wrap up with you and just broaden
this out. Do you see this possibly as a softening
in regard to some of the immigration issues putting this forth?
And it sounds like you like some of these policies,
but because of what's been in the news, because it
does take it looks like many migrants to run some
of these large businesses, whether they're ag businesses. Do you
see this coming from the business side saying, hey, you know,
we want legal status, but if you're going to crush
(06:27):
our business, we can't do this work on some sort
of legislation.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Certainly, I mean, these legislators consulted with business, big business,
and border security experts and immigration advocates to piece this
bill together. It is clearly something that the president has
heard from business leaders that they rely on migrant labor
to sustain their businesses, and that has always been true.
Ay something about it, especially for long term workers who
(06:53):
have been doing difficult jobs for many, many years and
continue to show up. So business leaders would love something
like this to happen. They've wanted something like this to
happen for a long time because they know that they've
had to hire unauthorized labor and sort of look the
other way. They would prefer not to have to do that.
And certainly the laborers themselves would prefer to be lawful
and to not be frightened or hiding or sort of
(07:16):
in the shadows all the time. So this is certainly
I think it would be a political win for the
president in terms of business leaders. I think the politics
are going to get hard for him if they continue
to sweep up migrant laborers who are working just to
support their families.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
See you, immigration and policy law professor, it's be Aletta
Chapin