March 14, 2026 • 20 mins
While Massachusetts, and especially Greater Boston, are often seen as a hub of progress and innovation, that's not always the case when it comes to wage equity. There have been some advancements to shrink the gap, but there's also a first-in-the-nation program in Boston working with city officials and local businesses to try and eliminate that gap completely. Kim Borman, Executive Director of the Boston Women's Workplace Council, shares their latest wage inequity data with Nichole and discusses their efforts.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From WBZ News Radio in Boston. This is New England Weekend.
Each week right here, we come together and talk about
all the topics important to you and the place where
you live. Thanks for tuning in again this week. I'm
Nicole Davis. Massachusetts and especially Greater Boston is often seen
by people around the world as a hub of innovation
and progress when it comes to wage equity, though the
(00:29):
progress is not moving quite as quickly as we're used
to in other areas. The Boston Women's Workforce Council is
out with its latest report about the wage gap in
the region, and it does show the gap is getting smaller,
but it also shows there are major disparities that have
to be tackled, especially when it comes to Hispanic and
Black employees. The Council is doing that work by teaming
up with businesses all over the region, getting in there
(00:50):
helping c suites take a closer, more impactful look at
inequities within their own ranks while offering solutions to help
close those gaps. Executive Director Kim Borman is here to
talk with us about this now. Kim, thanks for the time.
Give us a bit more detail if you could, about
the council and the work you're doing on this issue.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So we are a partnership between the Mayor of Boston,
whomever that may be, and employers in Greater Boston that
are dedicated to closing gender and racial wage gaps. And
we do that in many different ways, but one of
the most important is that every two years we ask
our members to give us right off their PERO systems
(01:30):
data about their employees that includes compensation, and we are
able to see them and report on an aggregated basically
community progress made to close gender and racial wage gaps.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So that's who we are.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
In addition, we share best practices and we really are
the go to resource for employers who are interested in
pay equity.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, we're going to talk about your compact and you
know who your signers might be. We'll touch on that
in a couple of minutes. For people who may not
be familiar with the concept of gender pay equity, I
mean there is a simple term. It's you know, people
of all genders making the same amount of money for
the same job. But there are a lot of factors
in history behind this. So if you could break it
down a bit for us.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Of course, So the way we look at it is.
It's almost like a raw gender wage gap. And what
does that mean. That means we look at, honestly, the
average of all the working men versus the average salary
of all working women, and we look at it in
terms of base compensation and also in terms of performance pay.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
And why do we do it that way?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I mean sometimes people ask us about, well, what about
education and experience? We do it this way on purpose,
because we are looking not only horizontally. I call it
equal pay for equal work, which has been the law
since nineteen sixty three, frankly, and it was strengthened in
twenty eighteen in Massachusetts through the Massachusetts Equality Pay Act.
(03:00):
If you're familiar with that, equal pay for equal work,
you can be fined a lot by if people can
prove that. What's harder and more difficult to see is
what I kind of call vertical, which is our people.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Being advanced fairly.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So are the groups that usually don't get attention paid
to them not getting advanced as quickly as other groups
that usually do get a lot of attention paid to them.
Because if that is happening, you will never be able
to close the gap, even if you're paying everybody The
same is at the administrative support level. If only certain
(03:40):
people lead the administrative support level to more senior positions
where they actually make more money, you're going to have
a huge gap. So that's why we do it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
The way we do it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
We look at the average compensation of men versus the
average compensation with women, and we also do it by race.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When you're looking at all this data on pay equity,
do you include research on transgender women or people who
identify as non binary? How does that all work?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
We do ask the question, and this is something that
our employers give to us. The fact is that the
employers ask it themselves. They don't get that information very often,
especially now I have to tell you, so, yes, it
is something that we look at non binary in particular,
but we get such few responses that we aren't able
(04:29):
to do a whole lot with that information.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That's understandable. So let's talk about the report that you
recently put out and in some areas there has been
major improvement. Here. You know, women are now up to
earning eighty eight cents for every dollar a man earns
in Greater Boston. Tell us a bit about how that's
improved over the past few years.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
We look at it well two ways.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But basically the gap then from that eighty eight sense
so that gap is twelve cents. That gap used to
be twenty one sense two years before, and actually it
was thirty cents, so it's gone down quite a bit.
And the base compensation in particular now it goes up
(05:09):
a little bit to eighteen cents when you add the
performance paid to it, but still that's a lot different
than the thirty cents we saw for total compensation in
twenty twenty three. So overall, yes, there has been a
huge decrease in the gender wage gap. Part of this
is because we saw seven percent increase in women moving
(05:32):
to more senior positions in fact the C suite in particular,
which means again that you're getting a higher salary. So
that makes the average. It brings the averages closer together,
shall I say.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Unfortunately, it's not a complete gain considering when it looks
when you look at the data for women of color,
the gap is still significantly bigger. So let's talk about
what you found for Hispanic women and black women specifically
here compared to white women.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Hispanic women in particular have a gap of fifty one cence,
we'll put it that way, and that's a forty nine,
So they bring home forty nine cents on the dollar
versus that eighty eight cent stuff on the dollar you
were talking about on average. Then black women they have
a gap of fifty three cents or bring home forty
seven cents on the dollar. I mean, you know, less
(06:20):
than half of that dollar. Interestingly though, well also you
probably noted, is that the biggest gap is actually for
black men. And we're comparing all of this to white
men and their salaries, and why do we do that,
Because there's just more of them, and they typically are
(06:41):
the people who get paid the most. But the black
man's gap is fifty five cents, meaning they bring home
forty five cents on the dollar. So there is definitely
a compound disparity when you look at gender and race.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Together here in Massachusetts. Obviously, we're seeing in Greater Boston
that this is a problem that is improving by the year.
How does Massachusetts fair or Greater Boston fair to other
major metros or just nationwide in general?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Do you know, Well, there is a national Equal Payday
that is in March, but it's not the number that
they use that they'll tell you about which I think
is nineteen cents comes right off the census. But the census,
as you know, it's just not that accurate. It's based
on whether somebody can remember what they were paid and
(07:33):
when they were paid it, and what the bonus structure was.
And the bottom line is we are the only organization
nationwide that does this really, So I wish I could
tell you that there are other groups out there.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
We get calls all the time, whether.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It be from Governor Newsom's wife in California or her organization,
the mayor's office in Chicago. How do you make this happen?
How have you all been able to do this? It's
really because of this partnership between the City of Boston
and employers wanting to make a difference. So I wish
(08:07):
I could tell you Nicole that, yes, you can compare
it around. The only thing that's really out there is
again a number that's put out by different organizations, but
they do it the same way through the Census.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
We are the only ones who do it.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Accurately, we feel, or more accurately right off of a
peril system.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Wow, I really hope that that changes, because that is
astounding to me that you are the only one. I mean,
I'm grateful you're here in doing it, but that is
astounding that you're the only ones doing it so far
in the year twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I know. Wow, it is something that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Is something Have you noticed through your research in your
work that it's a generational gap when it comes to
wage transparency, because I feel that Gen Z and millennials
are way more willing to talk about their wages than
perhaps Gen xers or boomers. Have you found that to
be the case, Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
We have, but we're not asking them individually, no, of course,
you know, it becomes.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
An forget that they give us.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And but yes, in terms of the stories that we hear,
the younger employees are much more willing to say what
they're earning. And it's good for them because that's the
only way that you know and can find out if
you're not earning what you should be earning at your
job category. Now, of course, now you can because of
(09:23):
the way transparency bands that we're a part of the
Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act. That will help, but you're
still going to have to find out where on that
band you are versus other people.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah. I mean, are the businesses you're working with are
they recognizing this is happening and willing to make change
or are they just saying, well, this is the industry,
it's education, Like what is the excuse here for this?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
So they definitely recognize it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And it's very interesting cool because we have all sorts of.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Organizations that work with us.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
We have the big companies in town, the State Streets,
the Vertex, the mass mutuals, and then we have smaller groups,
nonprofits and construction architecture. Because it was a data year,
and because it was a strange politically charged year, we
didn't know if we would get the same participation in
(10:19):
the data measurement as we have in the past. And
lo and behold, we did. I can't tell you which
companies because I don't even know that, because that's a
part of the whole confidentiality. I don't know who gives
us their data. But actually I know who gives us
their data. I don't know what their data says. I
know who gives us their data because I want to
thank them for it. The point is is that people
(10:42):
still care about this, people still want to do something
about this, but it's a long slog and people know
that too, and I think employees know that too. In
wage transparency is extremely important as a concept. It's something
you want your employer to be paying attention to. But
we've found over and over again that the employees aren't
(11:04):
expecting this to go away overnight. They know this takes years.
So yes to your question, employers are trying, and they're
trying everything they can, and they test different things because
there isn't a silver bullet. It depends on your culture,
it depends on your leadership, it depends on sort of
(11:25):
your workforce, and you know, are they frontline are they
backline these kinds of things. So that's why one of
the things we do is try to share as many
practices that are working out there with our members so
that they can test and learn as they go.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
What is the City of Boston doing to try to
narrow these wage gaps? I mean, I know there's so
many different programs and a lot of assistance in place,
but when it comes to your work specifically, how is
the city helping you in this?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
The city helps us, first of all by using our
research and our data whenever they can. In terms of
when they're talking to businesses. They also help us in recruiting,
and then they also help us by giving us their
data every couple of years, which is you know, it's
a big it's a big ask for them because there's
so many employees. So they've been very helpful. And no
(12:20):
matter how many mayors we've had since it started with
you know, Mayor Menino, every mayor has been very supportive
of our work.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So your members are called one hundred percent Talent Compact signers,
And I'd love to know what this compact includes and
you know, what are some of these practices that you're
leaning on here is we try to get closer to
equity and parity here.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So the one hundred percent Talent Compact was something that
was devised. I believe there was some kind of one
hundred percent compact during the two thousand and eight financial
crisis that we had, and so the idea of a
compact and that you know, there's something between the government
and employers to try to make society better.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So that's kind of how the name came about.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
What it is is a pledge and it's a pretty
it's like two lines and we ask people one to
pledge that they will look at their numbers and do
the math and find out whether or not they have
wage gaps and then work towards closing those gaps, and
of course we will help them do that. There's also
a request for them to give us their data every
(13:24):
two years.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And most of them do.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Some of them don't usually because we hit them at
the wrong time of year and they just don't have
the staff to do it. And then the third thing
is that to share best practices and come to our
events and the networking. So that's really what it involves.
And you know, we will take, as I said, any organization,
(13:47):
any member, any employer out there that wants to be
a part of the contact. We'd love to have you
because the more data we have, the more projectable are
information is now when you say what works and what doesn't.
As I said, there's no silver bullet, but we give
they're called Wage Equity Impact Awards and we're about to
(14:08):
open the application for them for this year. We used
to call them innovative initiative wards, and then we realized
they don't need to be that innovative.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They just need to work.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's pretty straightforward stuff if you ask right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So what we find out honestly is the first step
is doing the math and needs to really like look
at your numbers and see, as I said, horizontally equal
pay for equal work, but also looking at it in
terms of advancement and our people being advanced at the
(14:41):
same rate as their colleagues. When people start to do
the math, and we call it wage Calculator dot org.
We put that together with the city so anybody, whether
you're a member or not, can go to that website
and put in their information and it'll spit it out
(15:04):
against our information. And we've updated it so that so
that you can just as a benchmark. But that's the
first place to start. Then there are other things to
look at. One year we gave a ward to Mass
General Brigham and was really Mass General and it was
(15:24):
very interesting. It was during COVID and there's something called
Grand rounds that doctors are expected to do. I was
kind of surprised. Doctors don't get promoted just because.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
They save lives. They also have to do.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Extracurricular things, and there's something called grand rounds where you
either go to a different hospitals, say across the nation
or across the ocean for about six months and you
are a part of their doctor community and you are
supposed to be sharing with them what you know and
what you learn in your expertise.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And they just couldn't find.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Women, especially women between the ages of thirty to forty
who were doctors, to apply for the program, and because
they weren't applying for the program, they weren't getting promoted
to the next level. So during COVID mess general, I
mean it was they leveled the playing field because nobody
was I was traveling. So the grand rounds were done
(16:24):
through zooms and they encouraged women to become a part
of this program and to really apply for grand rounds,
and they got about thirty percent more women, and they
had ten percent more women promoted the next year. So
you could honestly see the difference there.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Look at that. It's simple stuff. This does not have
to be groundbreaking now. It's very simple things. You just
have to sit down and you know, take a few
minutes and really take a look at the numbers. Because
I'm sure if you're running a successful business, or even
if you're just in a startup and you're trying to
get things going, there are so many things that are
going around at one time, you may just not even
(17:06):
realize that this is happening exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And that's why we say look at the math, because
you may be very surprised. And again, of course it's
the math not just gender, but it's also you know,
the racial wage gaps, and to look at those.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right, right, and of course you know there are inevitably
going to be perhaps some people who are doing it deliberately.
How do we change that?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
That is what the law is supposed to help in
terms of equal pay for equal work and MEPA that's
supposed to help that. It's much more hard, you know,
it's much more difficult to show discrimination that you're not
getting advanced because people are discriminating against you. So it's
(17:48):
there are laws, of course out there that are supposed
to help you, but they take.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Years and take a long long time.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So that's why we're pretty happy that we have two
hundred plus employers who are interested in doing it on
their own and figuring out how they can make these
gaps go away.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, and you're working greater Boston, so it's not just
Boston proper. Really, anybody I'd say, what within four ninety
five or one twenty eight, how far are you going
out here?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
We go out to four ninety five.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh great, and we're talking about going statewide, but right
now we're within the four ninety five corridor.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Okay. So somebody owns a business and they're listening, and
they happen to be working in like Metro West or something.
You're happy to take their data?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Of course, of course, wonderful. Give me a call, we'll
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
We will happily take your data for good research, you know. So,
I guess my final question to you is, if somebody
is listening and they're having some doubts that they are
being paid properly, what is your advice to a worker
who either wants to make sure that they're getting paid
equitably or maybe they just aren't sure.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Again, our audience and our employers, So what I would
tell you from our employer's point of view is go
talk to your HR people, and especially now with the
passage of the Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act, that is
the entire point is that these hard conversations are going
to have to start happening because there's going to be
transparency about what the band is in terms of what
(19:19):
your job should be paid.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And this is going to make a.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Real difference internally, so start having those hard conversations. Hopefully
the employers are being trained on how to speak about
these things. But employees should not feel in any way
threatened by going to HR and talking about this because
it's kind of expected now.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Wage Gap Calculator dot org is your website for employers
to go to and navigate that pretty straightforward if they
want to get that information. How else can people get
a hold of you? Employers are just people who are
interested in your work.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
They can go to our website at the thhe BWWC
dot org and you'll see everything you need to about
our organization, but also a contact form and we will
get in touch as quickly as possible.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
All right, VBWWC dot org. That's it, all right, Well,
Kim Borman, it is wonderful to have you here on
the show. Executive Director of the Boston Women's Workforce Council. Kim,
thanks so much for the time and the education. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Have a safe and healthy weekend. Be sure to join
us again next week for another edition of the show.
I'm Nicole Davis from WBZ NewsRadio on iHeartRadio,
From WBZ News Radio in Boston. This is New England Weekend.
Each week right here, we come together and talk about
all the topics important to you and the place where
you live. Thanks for tuning in again this week. I'm
Nicole Davis. Massachusetts and especially Greater Boston is often seen
by people around the world as a hub of innovation
and progress when it comes to wage equity, though the
(00:29):
progress is not moving quite as quickly as we're used
to in other areas. The Boston Women's Workforce Council is
out with its latest report about the wage gap in
the region, and it does show the gap is getting smaller,
but it also shows there are major disparities that have
to be tackled, especially when it comes to Hispanic and
Black employees. The Council is doing that work by teaming
up with businesses all over the region, getting in there
(00:50):
helping c suites take a closer, more impactful look at
inequities within their own ranks while offering solutions to help
close those gaps. Executive Director Kim Borman is here to
talk with us about this now. Kim, thanks for the time.
Give us a bit more detail if you could, about
the council and the work you're doing on this issue.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
So we are a partnership between the Mayor of Boston,
whomever that may be, and employers in Greater Boston that
are dedicated to closing gender and racial wage gaps. And
we do that in many different ways, but one of
the most important is that every two years we ask
our members to give us right off their PERO systems
(01:30):
data about their employees that includes compensation, and we are
able to see them and report on an aggregated basically
community progress made to close gender and racial wage gaps.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So that's who we are.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
In addition, we share best practices and we really are
the go to resource for employers who are interested in
pay equity.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, we're going to talk about your compact and you
know who your signers might be. We'll touch on that
in a couple of minutes. For people who may not
be familiar with the concept of gender pay equity, I
mean there is a simple term. It's you know, people
of all genders making the same amount of money for
the same job. But there are a lot of factors
in history behind this. So if you could break it
down a bit for us.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Of course, So the way we look at it is.
It's almost like a raw gender wage gap. And what
does that mean. That means we look at, honestly, the
average of all the working men versus the average salary
of all working women, and we look at it in
terms of base compensation and also in terms of performance pay.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
And why do we do it that way?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I mean sometimes people ask us about, well, what about
education and experience? We do it this way on purpose,
because we are looking not only horizontally. I call it
equal pay for equal work, which has been the law
since nineteen sixty three, frankly, and it was strengthened in
twenty eighteen in Massachusetts through the Massachusetts Equality Pay Act.
(03:00):
If you're familiar with that, equal pay for equal work,
you can be fined a lot by if people can
prove that. What's harder and more difficult to see is
what I kind of call vertical, which is our people.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Being advanced fairly.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So are the groups that usually don't get attention paid
to them not getting advanced as quickly as other groups
that usually do get a lot of attention paid to them.
Because if that is happening, you will never be able
to close the gap, even if you're paying everybody The
same is at the administrative support level. If only certain
(03:40):
people lead the administrative support level to more senior positions
where they actually make more money, you're going to have
a huge gap. So that's why we do it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
The way we do it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
We look at the average compensation of men versus the
average compensation with women, and we also do it by race.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When you're looking at all this data on pay equity,
do you include research on transgender women or people who
identify as non binary? How does that all work?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
We do ask the question, and this is something that
our employers give to us. The fact is that the
employers ask it themselves. They don't get that information very often,
especially now I have to tell you, so, yes, it
is something that we look at non binary in particular,
but we get such few responses that we aren't able
(04:29):
to do a whole lot with that information.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That's understandable. So let's talk about the report that you
recently put out and in some areas there has been
major improvement. Here. You know, women are now up to
earning eighty eight cents for every dollar a man earns
in Greater Boston. Tell us a bit about how that's
improved over the past few years.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
We look at it well two ways.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But basically the gap then from that eighty eight sense
so that gap is twelve cents. That gap used to
be twenty one sense two years before, and actually it
was thirty cents, so it's gone down quite a bit.
And the base compensation in particular now it goes up
(05:09):
a little bit to eighteen cents when you add the
performance paid to it, but still that's a lot different
than the thirty cents we saw for total compensation in
twenty twenty three. So overall, yes, there has been a
huge decrease in the gender wage gap. Part of this
is because we saw seven percent increase in women moving
(05:32):
to more senior positions in fact the C suite in particular,
which means again that you're getting a higher salary. So
that makes the average. It brings the averages closer together,
shall I say.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Unfortunately, it's not a complete gain considering when it looks
when you look at the data for women of color,
the gap is still significantly bigger. So let's talk about
what you found for Hispanic women and black women specifically
here compared to white women.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Hispanic women in particular have a gap of fifty one cence,
we'll put it that way, and that's a forty nine,
So they bring home forty nine cents on the dollar
versus that eighty eight cent stuff on the dollar you
were talking about on average. Then black women they have
a gap of fifty three cents or bring home forty
seven cents on the dollar. I mean, you know, less
(06:20):
than half of that dollar. Interestingly though, well also you
probably noted, is that the biggest gap is actually for
black men. And we're comparing all of this to white
men and their salaries, and why do we do that,
Because there's just more of them, and they typically are
(06:41):
the people who get paid the most. But the black
man's gap is fifty five cents, meaning they bring home
forty five cents on the dollar. So there is definitely
a compound disparity when you look at gender and race.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Together here in Massachusetts. Obviously, we're seeing in Greater Boston
that this is a problem that is improving by the year.
How does Massachusetts fair or Greater Boston fair to other
major metros or just nationwide in general?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Do you know, Well, there is a national Equal Payday
that is in March, but it's not the number that
they use that they'll tell you about which I think
is nineteen cents comes right off the census. But the census,
as you know, it's just not that accurate. It's based
on whether somebody can remember what they were paid and
(07:33):
when they were paid it, and what the bonus structure was.
And the bottom line is we are the only organization
nationwide that does this really, So I wish I could
tell you that there are other groups out there.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
We get calls all the time, whether.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It be from Governor Newsom's wife in California or her organization,
the mayor's office in Chicago. How do you make this happen?
How have you all been able to do this? It's
really because of this partnership between the City of Boston
and employers wanting to make a difference. So I wish
(08:07):
I could tell you Nicole that, yes, you can compare
it around. The only thing that's really out there is
again a number that's put out by different organizations, but
they do it the same way through the Census.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
We are the only ones who do it.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Accurately, we feel, or more accurately right off of a
peril system.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Wow, I really hope that that changes, because that is
astounding to me that you are the only one. I mean,
I'm grateful you're here in doing it, but that is
astounding that you're the only ones doing it so far
in the year twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I know. Wow, it is something that.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Is something Have you noticed through your research in your
work that it's a generational gap when it comes to
wage transparency, because I feel that Gen Z and millennials
are way more willing to talk about their wages than
perhaps Gen xers or boomers. Have you found that to
be the case, Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
We have, but we're not asking them individually, no, of course,
you know, it becomes.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
An forget that they give us.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And but yes, in terms of the stories that we hear,
the younger employees are much more willing to say what
they're earning. And it's good for them because that's the
only way that you know and can find out if
you're not earning what you should be earning at your
job category. Now, of course, now you can because of
(09:23):
the way transparency bands that we're a part of the
Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act. That will help, but you're
still going to have to find out where on that
band you are versus other people.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah. I mean, are the businesses you're working with are
they recognizing this is happening and willing to make change
or are they just saying, well, this is the industry,
it's education, Like what is the excuse here for this?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
So they definitely recognize it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And it's very interesting cool because we have all sorts of.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Organizations that work with us.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
We have the big companies in town, the State Streets,
the Vertex, the mass mutuals, and then we have smaller groups,
nonprofits and construction architecture. Because it was a data year,
and because it was a strange politically charged year, we
didn't know if we would get the same participation in
(10:19):
the data measurement as we have in the past. And
lo and behold, we did. I can't tell you which
companies because I don't even know that, because that's a
part of the whole confidentiality. I don't know who gives
us their data. But actually I know who gives us
their data. I don't know what their data says. I
know who gives us their data because I want to
thank them for it. The point is is that people
(10:42):
still care about this, people still want to do something
about this, but it's a long slog and people know
that too, and I think employees know that too. In
wage transparency is extremely important as a concept. It's something
you want your employer to be paying attention to. But
we've found over and over again that the employees aren't
(11:04):
expecting this to go away overnight. They know this takes years.
So yes to your question, employers are trying, and they're
trying everything they can, and they test different things because
there isn't a silver bullet. It depends on your culture,
it depends on your leadership, it depends on sort of
(11:25):
your workforce, and you know, are they frontline are they
backline these kinds of things. So that's why one of
the things we do is try to share as many
practices that are working out there with our members so
that they can test and learn as they go.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
What is the City of Boston doing to try to
narrow these wage gaps? I mean, I know there's so
many different programs and a lot of assistance in place,
but when it comes to your work specifically, how is
the city helping you in this?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
The city helps us, first of all by using our
research and our data whenever they can. In terms of
when they're talking to businesses. They also help us in recruiting,
and then they also help us by giving us their
data every couple of years, which is you know, it's
a big it's a big ask for them because there's
so many employees. So they've been very helpful. And no
(12:20):
matter how many mayors we've had since it started with
you know, Mayor Menino, every mayor has been very supportive
of our work.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
So your members are called one hundred percent Talent Compact signers,
And I'd love to know what this compact includes and
you know, what are some of these practices that you're
leaning on here is we try to get closer to
equity and parity here.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So the one hundred percent Talent Compact was something that
was devised. I believe there was some kind of one
hundred percent compact during the two thousand and eight financial
crisis that we had, and so the idea of a
compact and that you know, there's something between the government
and employers to try to make society better.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
So that's kind of how the name came about.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
What it is is a pledge and it's a pretty
it's like two lines and we ask people one to
pledge that they will look at their numbers and do
the math and find out whether or not they have
wage gaps and then work towards closing those gaps, and
of course we will help them do that. There's also
a request for them to give us their data every
(13:24):
two years.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And most of them do.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Some of them don't usually because we hit them at
the wrong time of year and they just don't have
the staff to do it. And then the third thing
is that to share best practices and come to our
events and the networking. So that's really what it involves.
And you know, we will take, as I said, any organization,
(13:47):
any member, any employer out there that wants to be
a part of the contact. We'd love to have you
because the more data we have, the more projectable are
information is now when you say what works and what doesn't.
As I said, there's no silver bullet, but we give
they're called Wage Equity Impact Awards and we're about to
(14:08):
open the application for them for this year. We used
to call them innovative initiative wards, and then we realized
they don't need to be that innovative.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They just need to work.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's pretty straightforward stuff if you ask right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So what we find out honestly is the first step
is doing the math and needs to really like look
at your numbers and see, as I said, horizontally equal
pay for equal work, but also looking at it in
terms of advancement and our people being advanced at the
(14:41):
same rate as their colleagues. When people start to do
the math, and we call it wage Calculator dot org.
We put that together with the city so anybody, whether
you're a member or not, can go to that website
and put in their information and it'll spit it out
(15:04):
against our information. And we've updated it so that so
that you can just as a benchmark. But that's the
first place to start. Then there are other things to
look at. One year we gave a ward to Mass
General Brigham and was really Mass General and it was
(15:24):
very interesting. It was during COVID and there's something called
Grand rounds that doctors are expected to do. I was
kind of surprised. Doctors don't get promoted just because.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
They save lives. They also have to do.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Extracurricular things, and there's something called grand rounds where you
either go to a different hospitals, say across the nation
or across the ocean for about six months and you
are a part of their doctor community and you are
supposed to be sharing with them what you know and
what you learn in your expertise.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And they just couldn't find.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Women, especially women between the ages of thirty to forty
who were doctors, to apply for the program, and because
they weren't applying for the program, they weren't getting promoted
to the next level. So during COVID mess general, I
mean it was they leveled the playing field because nobody
was I was traveling. So the grand rounds were done
(16:24):
through zooms and they encouraged women to become a part
of this program and to really apply for grand rounds,
and they got about thirty percent more women, and they
had ten percent more women promoted the next year. So
you could honestly see the difference there.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Look at that. It's simple stuff. This does not have
to be groundbreaking now. It's very simple things. You just
have to sit down and you know, take a few
minutes and really take a look at the numbers. Because
I'm sure if you're running a successful business, or even
if you're just in a startup and you're trying to
get things going, there are so many things that are
going around at one time, you may just not even
(17:06):
realize that this is happening exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And that's why we say look at the math, because
you may be very surprised. And again, of course it's
the math not just gender, but it's also you know,
the racial wage gaps, and to look at those.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right, right, and of course you know there are inevitably
going to be perhaps some people who are doing it deliberately.
How do we change that?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
That is what the law is supposed to help in
terms of equal pay for equal work and MEPA that's
supposed to help that. It's much more hard, you know,
it's much more difficult to show discrimination that you're not
getting advanced because people are discriminating against you. So it's
(17:48):
there are laws, of course out there that are supposed
to help you, but they take.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Years and take a long long time.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So that's why we're pretty happy that we have two
hundred plus employers who are interested in doing it on
their own and figuring out how they can make these
gaps go away.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, and you're working greater Boston, so it's not just
Boston proper. Really, anybody I'd say, what within four ninety
five or one twenty eight, how far are you going
out here?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
We go out to four ninety five.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Oh great, and we're talking about going statewide, but right
now we're within the four ninety five corridor.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Okay. So somebody owns a business and they're listening, and
they happen to be working in like Metro West or something.
You're happy to take their data?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Of course, of course, wonderful. Give me a call, we'll
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
We will happily take your data for good research, you know. So,
I guess my final question to you is, if somebody
is listening and they're having some doubts that they are
being paid properly, what is your advice to a worker
who either wants to make sure that they're getting paid
equitably or maybe they just aren't sure.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Again, our audience and our employers, So what I would
tell you from our employer's point of view is go
talk to your HR people, and especially now with the
passage of the Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act, that is
the entire point is that these hard conversations are going
to have to start happening because there's going to be
transparency about what the band is in terms of what
(19:19):
your job should be paid.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And this is going to make a.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Real difference internally, so start having those hard conversations. Hopefully
the employers are being trained on how to speak about
these things. But employees should not feel in any way
threatened by going to HR and talking about this because
it's kind of expected now.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Wage Gap Calculator dot org is your website for employers
to go to and navigate that pretty straightforward if they
want to get that information. How else can people get
a hold of you? Employers are just people who are
interested in your work.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
They can go to our website at the thhe BWWC
dot org and you'll see everything you need to about
our organization, but also a contact form and we will
get in touch as quickly as possible.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
All right, VBWWC dot org. That's it, all right, Well,
Kim Borman, it is wonderful to have you here on
the show. Executive Director of the Boston Women's Workforce Council. Kim,
thanks so much for the time and the education. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Have a safe and healthy weekend. Be sure to join
us again next week for another edition of the show.
I'm Nicole Davis from WBZ NewsRadio on iHeartRadio,
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