February 27, 2024 • 11 mins
National NFL features writer for The Athletic, Zak Keefer joins The A-Team. He talks about it being a year later and people around the league are still upset about the leaked S2 test result for CJ Stroud. He also talks about what is next for Stroud and the Texans in his second year. Plus, he talks about where the Texans stack up next to the others in the AFC that are trying to dethrone Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Our guests, as promised. ZachKiefer, national features writer for The Athletic
joining US and yesterday. It's notthe first article he's written about the Texans
of late, but the probably themost I don't know, scrutinized subject when
it comes to CJ. Stroud wasthat cognitive S two test and Zach,
as we bring you in here,it's it's like, with each passing day,
(00:23):
it gets more and more fascinating howthis all went down. But I
think the thing that stood out tome most about your article was that other
executives were telling you that it wasleaked to I guess, make him look
bad in order for them to lookgood. And I'm like, well that's
Carolina, right, Like who whowould have leaked something like this to make
(00:43):
CJ at the top of the draftlook bad? Yeah? Like how much
S two talk have you guys beenthrough in the last six for seven months
in Houston? And it's such afascinating story, and you know, a
while ago, it's like, doesanybody know what really happened? Like,
let's figure out what happened here withthe test, with the player, with
the leak and mostly the leak,and I did have a long conversation with
(01:07):
CJ back in October when things reallystarted to heat up for him and he
started to play really, really well, and you guys know where that went
to the divisional round of the playoffs. But when it comes to the leak,
you know, I asked a lotof people around the league, including
several general managers, and it wasstunning to me how angry they still were,
because, look, the draft processis a drueling process and the players
(01:29):
grow through a number of tests.They're doing it right now here in Indianapolis.
And for CJ. Stroud, whohad this amazing rookie season, to
score so poorly on a test thatis supposed to reflect his ability to see
the field and process quickly, whichif you watch a half football that he
played at any point this year,you know he can do that. It
(01:49):
didn't make sense. And they werevery, very kicked off. And that's
using that word lightly about the factthat eighteen leaked this information. I can
tell you for a fact S twodid not leak information because S two flagged
it as an invalid result. Theydidn't think strap didn't try on this test.
That's what the executives believed. Theproblem then becomes who leaked this?
(02:09):
And yeah, I think a lotof people believe it's Carolina, to be
honest. So if the I don'tknow enough about the S two tests,
I'm gonna ask you, is theS two test him sitting in a room
watching game film and diagramming plays andgoing through progressions. Are they sitting down
on a whiteboard and he's explaining tothem what he saw on this play and
how he made it all work atOhio State and all the game film that
(02:31):
everybody can watch, or is itsomething that clearly doesn't tell you very much?
So it's not that I have allthe time. It's you know,
they use the wonder lick right whereyou have. It's like a IQ test,
right, And the theory was ifyou're a smart person, you can
be a Spark quarterback. But that'snot always an easy translation, right,
(02:53):
the S two is, and I'mgoing to generalize this because it's really hard
to explain what the test is actuallyLike it's on like a gaming tablet and
you're basically responding to like visual stimuli, and it's tracking how fast you can
respond if you can respond in thecorrect way, and it's kind of pushing
you to like the mental breaking pointin terms of you're going to be pretty
(03:15):
tired after you take this test aboutforty five minutes and a lot of guys,
you know, Rock Turning didn't reallywell on it. Then he had
a good rookie season and Joe Burrowdid well and it did go on it.
So I think the s two rowsin prominence maybe a little too quickly.
And everybody and I'm including the mediain end with this as well.
Right, the media lashed onto thislittle too quickly and sort of crowned this
(03:37):
as the next new thing in quarterbackevaluation. Well, nothing's perfect and everything
is just a tool in the evaluationprocess. This among them, this is
just a tool. And if youdon't try on this test, as somebody
told me, if you only giveeighty percent on this test, you're going
to bomb it, even if you'rea super smart quarterback and processor like CJ.
(03:59):
Straps. I mean, I'm Idon't even know what to say,
quite honestly, because you're right,We've talked about this so much and I'm
still baffled by the manner in whichpeople utilize information like this, but essentially
and generalizing basically, it sounds likeNFL personnel people, this is what they
do. They have such a hardtime looking at so many different college football
(04:21):
offenses and what quarterbacks are actually beingasked to do, and what progressions are
really going through and who's playing withfive soon to be NFL wide receivers,
et cetera, and cent on downthe line. If there's anything they think
equates if X then Y, thenwe make the right pick. And you
rattle off a couple quarterbacks that gradeit out, well, then it's almost
(04:41):
like they've forgotten all the other stuffthey do, and those say, well,
this is it, let's go withthat. I personally, I was
talking with someone about this today aroundthe league and they had a crazy idea.
They said, the draft process istoo long. We overthink it,
and they look for these little tricks, these little cheek code, these little
short cut It's like you just saidX plus Y equals this to get them
(05:02):
the answer they want. And theywant to look smart, right, They
want to look like they drafted Rockberdyand he had a great season and they
found him right with j Stroud andmaybe the S two is part of this,
but I think frankly it was justoverthinking, Like one of the gams
I was talking to was like,we didn't even think about the S team
with CJ. Stroud. They werenot in the running for a quarterback,
(05:23):
so it wasn't like they were underpressure. But he's like, look,
we watched the film at Ohio State. He can process, he can move,
he can throw in the tight windowslike everything we saw this season at
Houston. And so some of themare just like, look, we're not
going to overthink this, and thensome of them, I think them do,
and the problem is they worry aboutthe reaction and the perception, right,
They worry about what it's going tobe said after they take this guy,
(05:45):
and so that's how leaks happen,and leaks are about incorrect information.
Then that's when we get into thesituation where right now and it's just a
mess and it's easily avoidable. AndI think what we can learn from it
is the leak is a problem.But I don't think those are going to
stop either. Unfortunately, No,We're we're in prime leak season with a
combine underway. We're talking to ZachKeefer, national features writer for The Athletic,
(06:08):
and Yeah, I think the mostironic part of all is what that
test criticized as far as CJ's acumenwas his ability to react in a timely
matter under duress, which is whatgot him the Offensive Rookie of the Year.
And so now you're looking forward toyear two, you don't want him
to hit the sophomore slump or thewall or anything like that, and there's
(06:30):
a lot of pressure on he DemikoRyans and I would say, particularly on
Nick Cassario, to not only buildaround him, but build around him quickly
while he's on that you know,vaunted rookie contract. Right now, what
do you think would be the bestdirection for a guy like Nick Cassario to
go, because it feels like there'sfifty different ways he could add to this
(06:51):
specific team, the Houston Texans,based on what you saw last year.
Yeah, it's a good problem tohave, right, a star quarterback on
a rookie deal. You love yourhead coach, and you got to find
a way to maximize that window thatyou have him on a rookie deal.
If I'm not mistaken, they havethe money to spend, which is a
good thing, and they have TankDale coming back, and the guy I
(07:15):
bring back, I think Delton Schultzfind a one year deal last year,
I'm bringing him back. You couldjust tell watching these games, especially late
in the season, that Schultz wasa guy Stroud went to. He was
a security blanket. I think thatwas instrumental in his rookie season. Now
there's a lot of other pieces youlike with the Texans, but I think
Schultz was essential, and I thinkyou keep that piece around. And then
secondly, you know life's going tobe different for the Texans moving forward.
(07:38):
There's going to be a little bitmore of a target on the back.
They're going to have a first placeschedule which is going to be a little
bit tougher. But this is thefun part, right when you get the
quarterback right and you have that momentum. And I think this is another thing
that I've heard a little bit thisweek, and even going back to the
playoffs, and you think about thegeneral land sea of the NFL. If
you're a receiver, you're a tightend, and you want to go somewhere
(08:00):
and really maximize your potential on thefield. You want to go to a
place like Houston with a really goodcoordinator at Bobbys Flowyck and a rising star
in CJ. Stroud, and soyou know, I covered the coast for
ten years back in the day whenAndrew Lock really humming. My guys would
come to Indy and just be likeI came for the quarterback. That's going
to happen in Houston because people wantto play with c. J. Stroud.
(08:22):
He's that good, he's that young, and they're going to have some
ability to pay those guys. Sothat's going to be fun and that's you
know, maybe that is a challengefor Nick Asario. That's a good challenge
to have. Patrick Mahomes will bea twenty nine year old, eighth year
quarterback with three Super Bowl rings,trying to win another AFC championship next season.
Jackson's in Baltimore, two is inMiami, Stroud's here in Houston,
(08:43):
Herbert's in La Josh Allen's and BuffaloBurrows and Cincinnati Lawrence's and Jacksonville. That's
a pretty awesome list of other quarterbacksand their respective teams. But which team
in the AFC do you think posesthe best challenge to Mahomes and the Chiefs
over the next handful of years.Noting that the only active quarterback in the
NFL to beat Mahomes in the playoffs. Is Joe Burrow who's done it one
(09:07):
time? Boy, that's an impressivelist. You just listened off right,
and I don't think you included AnthonyRichardson from Indianapolis. And you know,
maybe he could there maybe now wehaven't seen enough, but talk about Lamar
Jackson and Joe Burrow who got pastedin one time in Josh Allen like running
into that wall in the Postseedson somany times. Right, Patrick Mahoons is
(09:30):
the Michael Jordan of the NFL rightnow. He's the guy that's preventing all
these great players from getting to thechampionship. I still think it's Baltimore because
of what they've built around that teamright now. They were really really good
in December and January and they justcouldn't get it done against the Chief.
I think they'll learn from that,but again, it's going to be tough
to beat the Chief. Like yousaid, Mahomes is still twenty nine years
(09:50):
old, and it doesn't matter whatthe regular season looks like in Kansas City.
It just doesn't matter anymore. Allthat matters is how can you find
a way to beat him? InJanuary? And I think the Ravens will
learn from the mistakes of last year, if that's my guess right now,
is probably them. Buffalo's and capHell right now, they got to figure
that out. I do like Cincinnati, but Burrow has found a way to
(10:11):
get knocked you know, knocked aroundand get hurt a little bit too much
to my liking the last couple ofyears, so it's hard to bet on
them. We'll see what Herbert inthe Harball situation looks like in LA with
the Chargers, but you've got tothink they're going to be competitors very very
soon. But right now, it'seasy to like what Houston's building, and
(10:31):
it's easy to bank on a guylike C. J. Stroud. That's
not the toughest division in the world, although it's you know, it's gonna
get a little bit tougher. TheColts were one game from the playoffs.
Houston got in made it the divisionalround. Jacksonville fell apart late. A
lot of that was probably because TrevorLawrence injury. We'll see what happens in
Tennessee, but I don't see themcontending anytime soon. To answer your question
(10:52):
in a very long winded way,I like Baltimore. But I still like
Kansas City as the team to be. And you don't think that Sean Payton
and Russell Wilson are going to getback together and come out of nowhere,
correct. I don't see that happeningin any world. The Broncos will have
a different quarterback next year. Whata mess, all right, Zach.
We really appreciate the time. ZachKey for national features writer for The Athletic.
(11:13):
You can check out his work there. We really appreciate and let's catch
up again soon, Zach. Awesome, thanks for having me, guys,
Our guests, as promised. ZachKiefer, national features writer for The Athletic
joining US and yesterday. It's notthe first article he's written about the Texans
of late, but the probably themost I don't know, scrutinized subject when
it comes to CJ. Stroud wasthat cognitive S two test and Zach,
as we bring you in here,it's it's like, with each passing day,
(00:23):
it gets more and more fascinating howthis all went down. But I
think the thing that stood out tome most about your article was that other
executives were telling you that it wasleaked to I guess, make him look
bad in order for them to lookgood. And I'm like, well that's
Carolina, right, Like who whowould have leaked something like this to make
(00:43):
CJ at the top of the draftlook bad? Yeah? Like how much
S two talk have you guys beenthrough in the last six for seven months
in Houston? And it's such afascinating story, and you know, a
while ago, it's like, doesanybody know what really happened? Like,
let's figure out what happened here withthe test, with the player, with
the leak and mostly the leak,and I did have a long conversation with
(01:07):
CJ back in October when things reallystarted to heat up for him and he
started to play really, really well, and you guys know where that went
to the divisional round of the playoffs. But when it comes to the leak,
you know, I asked a lotof people around the league, including
several general managers, and it wasstunning to me how angry they still were,
because, look, the draft processis a drueling process and the players
(01:29):
grow through a number of tests.They're doing it right now here in Indianapolis.
And for CJ. Stroud, whohad this amazing rookie season, to
score so poorly on a test thatis supposed to reflect his ability to see
the field and process quickly, whichif you watch a half football that he
played at any point this year,you know he can do that. It
(01:49):
didn't make sense. And they werevery, very kicked off. And that's
using that word lightly about the factthat eighteen leaked this information. I can
tell you for a fact S twodid not leak information because S two flagged
it as an invalid result. Theydidn't think strap didn't try on this test.
That's what the executives believed. Theproblem then becomes who leaked this?
(02:09):
And yeah, I think a lotof people believe it's Carolina, to be
honest. So if the I don'tknow enough about the S two tests,
I'm gonna ask you, is theS two test him sitting in a room
watching game film and diagramming plays andgoing through progressions. Are they sitting down
on a whiteboard and he's explaining tothem what he saw on this play and
how he made it all work atOhio State and all the game film that
(02:31):
everybody can watch, or is itsomething that clearly doesn't tell you very much?
So it's not that I have allthe time. It's you know,
they use the wonder lick right whereyou have. It's like a IQ test,
right, And the theory was ifyou're a smart person, you can
be a Spark quarterback. But that'snot always an easy translation, right,
(02:53):
the S two is, and I'mgoing to generalize this because it's really hard
to explain what the test is actuallyLike it's on like a gaming tablet and
you're basically responding to like visual stimuli, and it's tracking how fast you can
respond if you can respond in thecorrect way, and it's kind of pushing
you to like the mental breaking pointin terms of you're going to be pretty
(03:15):
tired after you take this test aboutforty five minutes and a lot of guys,
you know, Rock Turning didn't reallywell on it. Then he had
a good rookie season and Joe Burrowdid well and it did go on it.
So I think the s two rowsin prominence maybe a little too quickly.
And everybody and I'm including the mediain end with this as well.
Right, the media lashed onto thislittle too quickly and sort of crowned this
(03:37):
as the next new thing in quarterbackevaluation. Well, nothing's perfect and everything
is just a tool in the evaluationprocess. This among them, this is
just a tool. And if youdon't try on this test, as somebody
told me, if you only giveeighty percent on this test, you're going
to bomb it, even if you'rea super smart quarterback and processor like CJ.
(03:59):
Straps. I mean, I'm Idon't even know what to say,
quite honestly, because you're right,We've talked about this so much and I'm
still baffled by the manner in whichpeople utilize information like this, but essentially
and generalizing basically, it sounds likeNFL personnel people, this is what they
do. They have such a hardtime looking at so many different college football
(04:21):
offenses and what quarterbacks are actually beingasked to do, and what progressions are
really going through and who's playing withfive soon to be NFL wide receivers,
et cetera, and cent on downthe line. If there's anything they think
equates if X then Y, thenwe make the right pick. And you
rattle off a couple quarterbacks that gradeit out, well, then it's almost
(04:41):
like they've forgotten all the other stuffthey do, and those say, well,
this is it, let's go withthat. I personally, I was
talking with someone about this today aroundthe league and they had a crazy idea.
They said, the draft process istoo long. We overthink it,
and they look for these little tricks, these little cheek code, these little
short cut It's like you just saidX plus Y equals this to get them
(05:02):
the answer they want. And theywant to look smart, right, They
want to look like they drafted Rockberdyand he had a great season and they
found him right with j Stroud andmaybe the S two is part of this,
but I think frankly it was justoverthinking, Like one of the gams
I was talking to was like,we didn't even think about the S team
with CJ. Stroud. They werenot in the running for a quarterback,
(05:23):
so it wasn't like they were underpressure. But he's like, look,
we watched the film at Ohio State. He can process, he can move,
he can throw in the tight windowslike everything we saw this season at
Houston. And so some of themare just like, look, we're not
going to overthink this, and thensome of them, I think them do,
and the problem is they worry aboutthe reaction and the perception, right,
They worry about what it's going tobe said after they take this guy,
(05:45):
and so that's how leaks happen,and leaks are about incorrect information.
Then that's when we get into thesituation where right now and it's just a
mess and it's easily avoidable. AndI think what we can learn from it
is the leak is a problem.But I don't think those are going to
stop either. Unfortunately, No,We're we're in prime leak season with a
combine underway. We're talking to ZachKeefer, national features writer for The Athletic,
(06:08):
and Yeah, I think the mostironic part of all is what that
test criticized as far as CJ's acumenwas his ability to react in a timely
matter under duress, which is whatgot him the Offensive Rookie of the Year.
And so now you're looking forward toyear two, you don't want him
to hit the sophomore slump or thewall or anything like that, and there's
(06:30):
a lot of pressure on he DemikoRyans and I would say, particularly on
Nick Cassario, to not only buildaround him, but build around him quickly
while he's on that you know,vaunted rookie contract. Right now, what
do you think would be the bestdirection for a guy like Nick Cassario to
go, because it feels like there'sfifty different ways he could add to this
(06:51):
specific team, the Houston Texans,based on what you saw last year.
Yeah, it's a good problem tohave, right, a star quarterback on
a rookie deal. You love yourhead coach, and you got to find
a way to maximize that window thatyou have him on a rookie deal.
If I'm not mistaken, they havethe money to spend, which is a
good thing, and they have TankDale coming back, and the guy I
(07:15):
bring back, I think Delton Schultzfind a one year deal last year,
I'm bringing him back. You couldjust tell watching these games, especially late
in the season, that Schultz wasa guy Stroud went to. He was
a security blanket. I think thatwas instrumental in his rookie season. Now
there's a lot of other pieces youlike with the Texans, but I think
Schultz was essential, and I thinkyou keep that piece around. And then
secondly, you know life's going tobe different for the Texans moving forward.
(07:38):
There's going to be a little bitmore of a target on the back.
They're going to have a first placeschedule which is going to be a little
bit tougher. But this is thefun part, right when you get the
quarterback right and you have that momentum. And I think this is another thing
that I've heard a little bit thisweek, and even going back to the
playoffs, and you think about thegeneral land sea of the NFL. If
you're a receiver, you're a tightend, and you want to go somewhere
(08:00):
and really maximize your potential on thefield. You want to go to a
place like Houston with a really goodcoordinator at Bobbys Flowyck and a rising star
in CJ. Stroud, and soyou know, I covered the coast for
ten years back in the day whenAndrew Lock really humming. My guys would
come to Indy and just be likeI came for the quarterback. That's going
to happen in Houston because people wantto play with c. J. Stroud.
(08:22):
He's that good, he's that young, and they're going to have some
ability to pay those guys. Sothat's going to be fun and that's you
know, maybe that is a challengefor Nick Asario. That's a good challenge
to have. Patrick Mahomes will bea twenty nine year old, eighth year
quarterback with three Super Bowl rings,trying to win another AFC championship next season.
Jackson's in Baltimore, two is inMiami, Stroud's here in Houston,
(08:43):
Herbert's in La Josh Allen's and BuffaloBurrows and Cincinnati Lawrence's and Jacksonville. That's
a pretty awesome list of other quarterbacksand their respective teams. But which team
in the AFC do you think posesthe best challenge to Mahomes and the Chiefs
over the next handful of years.Noting that the only active quarterback in the
NFL to beat Mahomes in the playoffs. Is Joe Burrow who's done it one
(09:07):
time? Boy, that's an impressivelist. You just listened off right,
and I don't think you included AnthonyRichardson from Indianapolis. And you know,
maybe he could there maybe now wehaven't seen enough, but talk about Lamar
Jackson and Joe Burrow who got pastedin one time in Josh Allen like running
into that wall in the Postseedson somany times. Right, Patrick Mahoons is
(09:30):
the Michael Jordan of the NFL rightnow. He's the guy that's preventing all
these great players from getting to thechampionship. I still think it's Baltimore because
of what they've built around that teamright now. They were really really good
in December and January and they justcouldn't get it done against the Chief.
I think they'll learn from that,but again, it's going to be tough
to beat the Chief. Like yousaid, Mahomes is still twenty nine years
(09:50):
old, and it doesn't matter whatthe regular season looks like in Kansas City.
It just doesn't matter anymore. Allthat matters is how can you find
a way to beat him? InJanuary? And I think the Ravens will
learn from the mistakes of last year, if that's my guess right now,
is probably them. Buffalo's and capHell right now, they got to figure
that out. I do like Cincinnati, but Burrow has found a way to
(10:11):
get knocked you know, knocked aroundand get hurt a little bit too much
to my liking the last couple ofyears, so it's hard to bet on
them. We'll see what Herbert inthe Harball situation looks like in LA with
the Chargers, but you've got tothink they're going to be competitors very very
soon. But right now, it'seasy to like what Houston's building, and
(10:31):
it's easy to bank on a guylike C. J. Stroud. That's
not the toughest division in the world, although it's you know, it's gonna
get a little bit tougher. TheColts were one game from the playoffs.
Houston got in made it the divisionalround. Jacksonville fell apart late. A
lot of that was probably because TrevorLawrence injury. We'll see what happens in
Tennessee, but I don't see themcontending anytime soon. To answer your question
(10:52):
in a very long winded way,I like Baltimore. But I still like
Kansas City as the team to be. And you don't think that Sean Payton
and Russell Wilson are going to getback together and come out of nowhere,
correct. I don't see that happeningin any world. The Broncos will have
a different quarterback next year. Whata mess, all right, Zach.
We really appreciate the time. ZachKey for national features writer for The Athletic.
(11:13):
You can check out his work there. We really appreciate and let's catch
up again soon, Zach. Awesome, thanks for having me, guys,
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