November 24, 2025 • 26 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you need wisdom and advice.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Seek out a guru when.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You need wisdom and advice about remodeling and design. Lock
on and listen right now to Nick the Construction Guru.
Here is award winning remodeling expert Nick Kerzner.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
News Talk eleven thirty wis End. Good morning, Wisconsin, Nick
the construction Guru on the heels of the Actually, we
just finished The Realtors Show Man. It was a I
always refer to that as a baton death March. It's
a great show, but it goes for so long. You know,
it's so many days, and you know, a lot of
the questions that were coming out of the people I
was talking to were about design and how different companies operate.
(00:46):
So today we're going to do a two part series.
This week and next week I'm going to have our
designer Chris Agner here from Chris Agner Design. We're going
to talk about the importance of design. So grab a
cup of coffee and sit down because there's going to
be some really good information today. Chris, thanks for coming
in on the show. I really appreciate you taking some time.
One of the things, let's define, defind, design, build. What
(01:07):
is a design build company. How do they differ from
from other things? Sure well, the.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Design build concept versus the typical contractor who is getting
a design from somewhere else, whether it be an architect
or just a homeowner's idea, without any true design and
building that project. In the design build world, one single
company is handling the design of the project all the
(01:33):
way through construction. Some real key advantages to that number
one contractor getting a set of plans from let's say
an architect who might have worked with a homeowner for
a couple of months developing a plan or a design.
The contractor has had no contact directly with that homeowner
through that whole design process, so really his only understanding
(01:57):
of the project is his interpretation of the arche text plans.
In the design build world, the company, the person, the
people that are going to actually build the project, be
in your home doing the work, have been with you
from day one through the design, so they understand you know,
you like this, This is important to you. This is
(02:19):
why we did this, this is why we chose to
do this. That's really important. I've seen too many times
where you know, in the other scenario, a homeowner all
of a sudden comes home from work and see something
that was done that day and says, what is this exactly?
And all of a sudden it's like, well, we didn't
(02:40):
know or we didn't understand that's what it was. So
that's kind of the overall design build concept. The other
advantage with that is that company that you're working with
from day one, if they're involved from the start on
the design side of things, they're also involved from the
start on your budget side of things.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Boom.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I can't tell you how many times I have been
handed a set of plans that an architect did for
somebody for thirty thousand dollars, yes, thirty thousand dollars or
more for the plan that a was it what they
were looking for or for some reason couldn't be built
because of existing conditions or.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What have you.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And at that here's standing up on the back of
my neck right now because I've experienced it, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Please, I'm not knocking architects. They're brilliant, but again they
are only working with the information they have, maybe directly
with the homeowner, not with the person who's going to
end up building it, who might say that, you know,
we can't do it this way. Because of XYZ or
for whatever reason. But it's just that disconnect from the
(03:49):
people working with you on a design to the guy
swinging the hammer. That disconnect can be a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, and the disconnect many times, my experience has taught
me through working on mediation and arbitration with other companies,
that a lot that Let's face it, the architect is
getting paid a lot of money to wow you with
a beautiful design, and I've seen some beautiful designs come through.
You talk about can't be built. One of the things that,
(04:17):
especially with structural things, a lot of times architects will
be taking walls out and things like that, not thinking
about what do we have to put in to support it.
I mean, granted they have the calks and all of that,
but I remember one we couldn't get the microomam in
the house because it was too long and we would
have had to take the side of the neighbor's house out.
So there is a major disconnect with that. And also
the big one, and you hit the nail on head,
(04:40):
is the budget. You know, they designed a thirty thousand
dollars plan till it's going to cost one hundred thousand
dollars due to you hand it to a general contractor
and it's two hundred and fifty or sixty thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What do you do now?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think one of the things that you and I
work on, well, every single job, we're always we know
the budget up front, yep. So you're going to maybe
you're going to not show something that are going to
throw it out of the budget. Or we show the
things and we say, hey, here's the mac Daddy. This
is the loaded car with the sunroof and the leather
and all of that. However, it's over your budget and
you may not want the sunroof, but you might want
(05:12):
the leather, right, so.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
You know, say I'll add to that. The other side
of it is, you know, an architect is being paid
for his profession, his knowledge and all those things, and
well deserving, but that is what his role is and
his motivation is in the design build world that contractor,
Yes he is charging for design if he's doing this right,
(05:37):
because it does take time and there's but his goal
is not to sell you a set of plans. His
goal is to build your projects. So it is very important,
you know, and this budget thing. That doesn't mean that
that you sit down day one and your contractor, your
design build contractor tells you it's going to cost about
this much, and when it's all done, it's not more.
(06:00):
I mean, you know, as plans develop, we call it
scope creep. We'll get into that later, but in today's world,
I'm sorry, I've been doing this for over thirty years
and I can't tell you next week what stuff is
going to cost the way things fluctuate in prices right now.
But at least we know this is the general area
we want to be. So this would be a cool idea,
(06:21):
but it really isn't going to fit in this budget. However,
mister and missus homeowner, would you like to look at this?
Would you like to explore this? Maybe you do want
to make that investment. By doing a proper design, we
can explore things in the computer world much less costly
than the soil world, right.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Exactly, so, Chris, you know, one of the questions that
I was getting is basically, what's separate? I'm going to
I'm going to paraphrase it, what are the elements of
a good design? In other words, when you're looking at
a design, what should be in it? And where what
fluff can can we get? Rid of, you know, kind
of directing the homeowner into what you're talking about, like
a situation. Hey, we're going to show you the sunroof.
(07:03):
If you like it, great, but understand it's going to
be more money. I think a lot of designers look
at a budget and they don't even show certain products.
And that's not fair either, because if I'm sitting on
a ninety degree day and a Toyota pulls up, same
as mind it's got a Sunrif I'm going to go,
why didn't the salesman talk to me about a sign?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
If I would have loved that?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yep, yeah exactly. And I think so you know that
what is a good design? I mean you could you know,
you could debate that for forever. You know there and
we do some right exactly. And you know, good design
can be esthetics, it can be function, it should be both,
and there's all kinds of other things that go into it,
you know, in the in the in the remodeling world,
(07:40):
you know, we're we're not only looking at designing this project,
but you know, this project, whether it's kitchen, bathroom, edition, whatever,
is fitting into an existing house or we're onto it now.
You know that and that that there's some real challenges there.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Number one, we wanted to blend, we wanted to look,
but where do you stop? In other words, you know
we're going to do this addition and I like this
new look of black windows or what have you, or
I like this new trim molding. Well does that mean
we're replacing all the doors in the casings, on the
windows and the rest of the house. You know, it's
there are all kinds of things that come into that.
(08:19):
But again, you know, knowing as the contractor who's going
to build it and having that experience of what things
do cost, you can guide you know, your job is
there to help that homeowner. We're not here to sell
you something. We're helped to guide you and our expectese
is going to say, you know you want to do this,
(08:40):
what about this, We've done this before, We've seen this before,
this really works well in this situation? Or what if
we did this to be able to at least see it,
explore it and know what that might cost. Is it
going to add to the project and then be able
to make a decision based on real information as maybe
that's a value to me, But if I don't know
(09:02):
as a homeowner that that was even possible. And my
project's all done, and then I go to my friend's
house and they have one of these and go, why why.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Didn't you tell right? Why didn't you tell me about that?
You know, I think you were touching on it in
kind of around about way. One of the things that
I think differentiates you and myself and kursioner remodeling and
construction is that the designers were actually craftsmen before they
were designers. So you were building, wearing a tool belt,
(09:30):
had hammers, all of that, as was I. So that
gives you kind of an in depth vision of what
can be done. And you know, I don't think a
lot of times with designers more than architects, but designers
they don't realize how long it's going to take to
create what they're doing. And that's where the labor disparagement
(09:51):
comes in. People look at it and go, well, they
told me it was going to be this much, and
you're telling me it's going to be guess what we
got to build it?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yep. Okay, So whenever.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You put curves in drywall, or if you're going to
have niches and showers, that takes time. And to do
it right. And that's what we bring to the table
when we talk about this. So I think, you know,
when you look at the design build world, you really
want to deal with people who are in design that
have actually done the work.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Right, which is hard to find, right, hard to find.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
And you know, and that's the word designer. You know,
what is that really mean? Right?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Right?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
So you know, I've heard that that term has kind
of become now the catch all for salesperson. You know,
in other words, this X y Z company doesn't have
salespeople anymore. We're going to send a designer to your house.
Well that's great. Are they a designer or are they
really the salesperson?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well, and you know, Chris, just because you have some
piece of paper from some online university in Guam, okay
that says you're a designer. Here's the bottom line. And
I've been saying this down at the show, and this
is going to be a little bit arrogant, but it's
just the truth. You know, they walk by our booth
and there's a twenty foot sheelf. I know it's twenty
feet because the booth is twenty feet and there's pieces
(11:06):
of glass seventy five eighty pieces of glass sitting on
their awards of work that we've done that have been
judged by industry peers in the same business and probably
many of them who have projects in the same competitions.
So you look at that and now, does that mean
it's a good designer? I would say yeah, does because
you know you've got industry professionals looking at it, so
(11:27):
you know there is a little bit of arrogance that
comes along with that. And I think that that's what
I think as a homeowner. If I'm going to have
my motorcycle Paine, and I want to go to the
guy who's winning the awards, right, Okay, if you're going
to have your house none, you want to go to
the person. And I said, guy, I shouldn't say that.
It just we're all guys, right, But that's where we're at. Chris,
(11:49):
We're going to take a short break. When we come back.
I want to talk to you about because because you
and I have had some of this as well, risks
of poor design. What are the risks you if you
don't have somebody that is a true design build designer.
And you know you and I have lived through many
of this, both through our roles at NARY and in
our personal business life. So I want to talk about
(12:10):
that because I think it's important. All Right, News Talk
eleven thirty WISN. We will return after these messages. News
Talk eleven thirty WSN returning from break Nick to Construction Group.
Listen if you're thinking about a project, I say on
every single show, as a matter of fact, I have
people coming up to me at the show, Chris, and
(12:32):
they're going you always say, get three estimates, So I
know they're listening. It's so cool, and I do because
you know it's a relationship business and clearly I'm not
the flavor for everybody, and you want to kind of
talk to the people that are going to be involved
in your house. Keep in mind that your contractor is
going to have access to your home, your pat your kids,
even your wife's longer rage rawers.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So it's a relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You have to know who you're dealing with, and you
have to look at a track record. So Kurzner is
the only company in Wisconsin, the only company in Wisconsin
in our industry to win the Better Business Beer Torch
Award for Ethics and Integrity three times. Give us a
call two six two, five six seven are on the
world wide Web at Kurznerinc. Dot com. That's k E
(13:15):
r Z n E r I n C dot com.
If you're just tuning in, we are on.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It just came off the heels of the Home and
Garden Show, which is a great show, by the way,
They do a great job down there.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Loved it was.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It was crowded, it was well done, So kudos to
Amanda and your and your whole team down there. If
you were at the Home and Garden Show, I thought
it was laid out really well, but a lot of
questions were coming up, and you know, as we go on, Chris,
a lot of the people are starting to ask the
right questions so that the the information is getting out there,
(13:52):
especially about remodeling. Where it all starts is with a
good plan. And we've been talking about design, why it's important,
and now I want to kind of dovetail into this.
We talked about why good design is important, why using
industry experts, What is a designer, what are the qualifications?
(14:12):
I said in the last segment, it's always better to
use somebody who's worn the tool belt and kind of
developed their design as time goes on. One of the
things I noticed, Chris, because I was doing all the
design for our company before you and I started working
in concert together is it's kind of like Forsache. It's
(14:33):
kind of like Louis Vuitton. Everything starts to look like
it has a flavor to it when you're a designer. Okay,
So I think one of the reasons why I decided
to call on your expertise and work in collaboration with
you is because we needed to put some sprinkles on
the ice cream. We needed to change it a little bit,
because designers tend to have similar subjective ideas. I know,
(14:58):
blue gray is big right now. I've always been an
earth tone guy, so the lion's share of my projects
are done that way. You are able to change some
of that. So when we talk about poor design, because
obviously there's good design and there's bad design, what are
the risks of poor design? What would you say are
(15:20):
some of the risks of that?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Well, that's a broad you know, there's a lot of
things that could be poor design. Poor design could be
something that, you know, as we talked about earlier, that
just simply doesn't work from a construction standpoint, or isn't
the best way to handle something, whether it's structural, whether
it you know, it may be a water issue. In
(15:42):
other words, this design, yeah, we like it, this is great, whatever,
But that roofline of that addition tying into your house
is a real potential there for a leak or a
nice dam or something, especially here in Wisconsin, you know,
and you spoke to this. You know, designers know what
is their background? Have they Do they understand that or
(16:05):
is it just this looks really nice and yes, the
homeowner looks and goes, yeah, that looks great. Well, the
homeowner it's not their job to know that might be
a potential problem. But in my mind, it is that
designer and that design build firms or whoever's going to
build it.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
You know, you know, I'm laughing. I always like to
I always like to use analogies.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
As you know.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I'm thinking about like when you're watching the Grammys or
the Oscars and you see some of these dresses that
the women wear and you're looking at it, You're going,
it's a really pretty dress. But if she walks, if
she if she extends her step another two inches, her
breast is going to fall out of the dress. Right,
and and and so functionality great point. You know, designers
(16:45):
looking to go we want it to be beautiful, we
want you to go wow, but how is it going
to work in its in its environment? And are you
going to be able to walk down the aisle without
the roof leaking?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
So it's it's like, I think that's a great point.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Oh no, that's why I was laughing at Yeah, you know,
but you know, so that's one aspect and that you know,
and that that really there's nothing but experience that's going
to get you to that point. You know. The other
thing you touched on there is you know, designers might
have a style, and there's nothing wrong with that. I
mean people, you know, people go to that dress designer
or that whatever because that is their style and they
(17:22):
like it. I've been doing this a very long time.
One of the things I like, and I think is
unique to me, is I like variety. In other words,
I just got done doing a sixty five hundred square
foot super modern custom home. Love it, but I also
love doing you know, the addition to this eighteen hundred's
(17:44):
farmhouse type of thing and everything in between. So that
that really and that's that's a personal thing. And that's
kind of back to your you know, either get three
estimates or talk to three people because again this relationship,
we need to find the right person, you know. And
and there may be does that's just awesome at you know,
doing condos downtown, But do I need them doing my
(18:05):
lake house? Maybe not. Maybe that's just not their niche.
And those are things that you'll just find out early
on so that you know, that's maybe not bad design,
it's just a bad fit. You know. Then in bad design,
you know again functional is the kitchen laid out properly?
Is it? Is it going to be easy to work in?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Or is it just pretty?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And some designers have a real problem with with balance,
with balancing you know, traffic patterns and functionality with drama.
I've always been a drama guy, always with when I'm designing,
I want people to walk in and.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Go wow, yep, But why can't we have both exactly right?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But that's what comes with clients exactly, That's what comes
with sign and learning.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And that's you know, the it's very easy to make
really pretty pictures in the computer.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And go wow, that's that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
I love it. Then to get halfway into the project
and have your contractor come to you and go, I
don't know what they were thinking here, but this doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you know, and it's.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Going to cost you fifty thousand dollars more to make
it right though, those are the headaches we avoid in
the design build world through experience.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well, and you know what in the earlier segment, we
were talking about the disconnect between say, an outside firm
doing the design and another general contractor doing it. You know,
I think that a lot of times people look at
you know, I want to go to this person to
build it, but there's a there's such a huge disconnect
between the people that have to build it then and
(19:32):
the budget. And we talked, we talked a lot about
that when you're dealing with the other thing where I
was going with this is there's also a liability issue.
You know, when that bad roof line starts to leak,
is it the fault of the designer or is it
the fault of the contractor? And I'm not sure, but
I know it's going to take a Philadelphia lawyer to
figure it out. When you're dealing with the design build
(19:53):
firm and you know, cursioners on the blueprints, cursioners on
the contract. The truth is there's only one set of
shoulders to put the liability exactly. And so knowing that
we're not going to do something that you may may
want desperately, but we know isn't going to work. And
we've been in those I've had people, I want a
spiral staircase. Another guy wanted to pull that he could
(20:15):
slide down, and I'm like, this is not We don't
do this kind of stuff. It just doesn't make sense
to us. And I'm sure there's somebody out there that
will yep. But down the line, if something happens, that's it.
We touched on it a couple of minutes ago. So
there's there's two schools of thought with design build. You know,
people come to my booth and they tell me and again,
because we just we just finished up at the Home
(20:37):
and Garden show, I'm trying to keep this stuff fresh
that that people are asking. They'll say, well, why should
I pay for design one? The other guy's going to
do it for free. Let's talk about that. Okay, that
you love it? I got to get back up off
the Florida. Yeah, yeah, Well So one of the things
that that I tell them is I look at. I say,
look at, there's no such thing as free design, because
(20:58):
somebody's getting paid, somebody getting on salary, somebody's getting paid
per design. Somebody has to be paid for that, and
that goes into the company's overhead. So when you deal
with the company that says they're doing quotation marks free design,
that's going into their overhead, which means that not only
are you paying for your design when you do business
with that company, but you're paying for everybody's design who
(21:21):
didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Because it's in their overhead exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
And the other thing, and I'm gonna let you talk
in just a minute, but this is the other thing
I love because I say, you know what, if somebody
says they're doing something free for you, Like if you
come over and say, hey, Nick, I'm gonna cut your
grass for you today for free, and I look out
there and there's lines in the grass and you didn't
trim it, right, It's hard for me to really come
and bitch at you about it because you did it
for free when you're paying for design. And I've had people,
the funniest one I've ever had is. I showed them
(21:46):
my design for the kitchen. They looked at it, and
a Waite looked at me. She said, this sucks, and
you know what, good for you? Thanks for telling me, right,
because it's subjective, right, absolutely, If I was doing it
for free, she's not going to be able to hold
me accountable.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So what are your thoughts on free?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we might need three shows for this.
But as you said, first of all, nothing is free.
But at the same time, you know, what are you
getting with that free design. I've been doing this a
long time. I know what it takes to do design
(22:25):
to the level we do.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
What Okay, let me ask you this, Sorr. I'd interrupt again,
but it's so important. How many hours on the average
kitchen I know averages are scary. I always say if
you if you have put two buckets of water on
the floor, one with ice water, one with boiling water,
take your shoes and socks, put your feet in one
of each bucket. On the average you should be comfortable.
It illustrates extreme.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, but.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, a good a good kitchen design could be you know,
probably as little as twenty five hours and as much
as seventy five hours to do that, right, Yes, And
that's that's where I was going. You're right on, it's
you know, free design. Was that Oh my god, I
have a meeting with X y Z client tomorrow. I
(23:11):
better start knocking something out tonight so I can show
them something. Is that the free design? And believe me,
I see stuff. I mean I have homeowners come to
me with we met with so and so, and this
is the design they gave them, and they hand me this,
you know, eight and a half by eleven three page
thing and it's like, what is this?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
And then the program, the software that we use, that
program that we use to design, you know, that's a
five thousand dollars program. Well you could go to Office People.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
By subscription every year to keep Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
At Office People, I can get a thirty five dollars
program that I can make something look like a design,
you know, so that that you know, you get what
you pay for.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Well I always say you don't always what you pay for,
but you never get what you don't pay for, you know.
So it's like I will and I hate to say
this because I know there's a lot of companies doing this,
but I always look at free design as a shield
for the next step in the sales program. So we're
going to hand you something to keep you involved. Okay,
I'm way past the time in my career where I
need to hand you something to stay involved. We're way
(24:20):
busier than we have to worry about trying to get
the people and and and creating this unrealistic thing. Chris,
we got about two minutes left. Let's hit on the
three most important things about design and again we're going
to do this again next week because we're going to
talk about design some more. So what people are looking
for design? Three?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
What do you think the three biggest.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Well, I think the first thing is information? You know
what what is this project? Is it to solve a problem?
Is it to enhance a lifestyle? Is it a statics?
Is it all of those things? So knowledge, you know,
knowing exactly what what are we trying to solve, What
are we trying to accomplish? Then you know what what
(24:59):
we're doing, and how is it blend with the existing home?
Is it going to match? Is it going is it
not supposed to match? Is it something that down the
road they're going to be changing siding? So this should
be that what's what's going on there? So all those
things play into good design. But ultimately, at the end
of the day, what is the homeowner after What are
they trying to accomplish? Is this going to do it?
(25:22):
Is it going to do it for the best value?
Is it going to add value to the home from
a whether it's resale or equity standpoint, All of those
things are part of good design. Did I do something
that is so unique that I better live here untill
they carry me out in a pine box because nobody's
buying this. And if that's your idea, good for you,
(25:46):
Good for you, no problem. I've done all kinds of
crazy stuff that nobody else would buy, but that's what
they wanted. But knowing that and and designing towards that end,
I think it's just a matter of, you know, getting
as much information and from the homeowner as to what
they're really trying to do, and then letting our expertise
and knowledge and experience guide them. And that's what we're
(26:08):
here for. We're not here to sell you what we like.
We're here to guide you to get the most for
your money, the most value, the most aesthetics, the most function,
And that's what we're here. We want to be sitting
side by side with you at the table, not across
the table from you trying to sell yourself.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, great points. Listen, we're going to do this again
next week. Thanks for coming in on a Sunday. We're
out of time, so tune in next week. We're going
to continue this all about design on Newstalk eleven thirty
to be isn
When you need wisdom and advice.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Seek out a guru when.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You need wisdom and advice about remodeling and design. Lock
on and listen right now to Nick the Construction Guru.
Here is award winning remodeling expert Nick Kerzner.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
News Talk eleven thirty wis End. Good morning, Wisconsin, Nick
the construction Guru on the heels of the Actually, we
just finished The Realtors Show Man. It was a I
always refer to that as a baton death March. It's
a great show, but it goes for so long. You know,
it's so many days, and you know, a lot of
the questions that were coming out of the people I
was talking to were about design and how different companies operate.
(00:46):
So today we're going to do a two part series.
This week and next week I'm going to have our
designer Chris Agner here from Chris Agner Design. We're going
to talk about the importance of design. So grab a
cup of coffee and sit down because there's going to
be some really good information today. Chris, thanks for coming
in on the show. I really appreciate you taking some time.
One of the things, let's define, defind, design, build. What
(01:07):
is a design build company. How do they differ from
from other things? Sure well, the.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Design build concept versus the typical contractor who is getting
a design from somewhere else, whether it be an architect
or just a homeowner's idea, without any true design and
building that project. In the design build world, one single
company is handling the design of the project all the
(01:33):
way through construction. Some real key advantages to that number
one contractor getting a set of plans from let's say
an architect who might have worked with a homeowner for
a couple of months developing a plan or a design.
The contractor has had no contact directly with that homeowner
through that whole design process, so really his only understanding
(01:57):
of the project is his interpretation of the arche text plans.
In the design build world, the company, the person, the
people that are going to actually build the project, be
in your home doing the work, have been with you
from day one through the design, so they understand you know,
you like this, This is important to you. This is
(02:19):
why we did this, this is why we chose to
do this. That's really important. I've seen too many times
where you know, in the other scenario, a homeowner all
of a sudden comes home from work and see something
that was done that day and says, what is this exactly?
And all of a sudden it's like, well, we didn't
(02:40):
know or we didn't understand that's what it was. So
that's kind of the overall design build concept. The other
advantage with that is that company that you're working with
from day one, if they're involved from the start on
the design side of things, they're also involved from the
start on your budget side of things.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Boom.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I can't tell you how many times I have been
handed a set of plans that an architect did for
somebody for thirty thousand dollars, yes, thirty thousand dollars or
more for the plan that a was it what they
were looking for or for some reason couldn't be built
because of existing conditions or.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What have you.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
And at that here's standing up on the back of
my neck right now because I've experienced it, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Please, I'm not knocking architects. They're brilliant, but again they
are only working with the information they have, maybe directly
with the homeowner, not with the person who's going to
end up building it, who might say that, you know,
we can't do it this way. Because of XYZ or
for whatever reason. But it's just that disconnect from the
(03:49):
people working with you on a design to the guy
swinging the hammer. That disconnect can be a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, and the disconnect many times, my experience has taught
me through working on mediation and arbitration with other companies,
that a lot that Let's face it, the architect is
getting paid a lot of money to wow you with
a beautiful design, and I've seen some beautiful designs come through.
You talk about can't be built. One of the things that,
(04:17):
especially with structural things, a lot of times architects will
be taking walls out and things like that, not thinking
about what do we have to put in to support it.
I mean, granted they have the calks and all of that,
but I remember one we couldn't get the microomam in
the house because it was too long and we would
have had to take the side of the neighbor's house out.
So there is a major disconnect with that. And also
the big one, and you hit the nail on head,
(04:40):
is the budget. You know, they designed a thirty thousand
dollars plan till it's going to cost one hundred thousand
dollars due to you hand it to a general contractor
and it's two hundred and fifty or sixty thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What do you do now?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think one of the things that you and I
work on, well, every single job, we're always we know
the budget up front, yep. So you're going to maybe
you're going to not show something that are going to
throw it out of the budget. Or we show the
things and we say, hey, here's the mac Daddy. This
is the loaded car with the sunroof and the leather
and all of that. However, it's over your budget and
you may not want the sunroof, but you might want
(05:12):
the leather, right, so.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
You know, say I'll add to that. The other side
of it is, you know, an architect is being paid
for his profession, his knowledge and all those things, and
well deserving, but that is what his role is and
his motivation is in the design build world that contractor,
Yes he is charging for design if he's doing this right,
(05:37):
because it does take time and there's but his goal
is not to sell you a set of plans. His
goal is to build your projects. So it is very important,
you know, and this budget thing. That doesn't mean that
that you sit down day one and your contractor, your
design build contractor tells you it's going to cost about
this much, and when it's all done, it's not more.
(06:00):
I mean, you know, as plans develop, we call it
scope creep. We'll get into that later, but in today's world,
I'm sorry, I've been doing this for over thirty years
and I can't tell you next week what stuff is
going to cost the way things fluctuate in prices right now.
But at least we know this is the general area
we want to be. So this would be a cool idea,
(06:21):
but it really isn't going to fit in this budget. However,
mister and missus homeowner, would you like to look at this?
Would you like to explore this? Maybe you do want
to make that investment. By doing a proper design, we
can explore things in the computer world much less costly
than the soil world, right.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Exactly, so, Chris, you know, one of the questions that
I was getting is basically, what's separate? I'm going to
I'm going to paraphrase it, what are the elements of
a good design? In other words, when you're looking at
a design, what should be in it? And where what
fluff can can we get? Rid of, you know, kind
of directing the homeowner into what you're talking about, like
a situation. Hey, we're going to show you the sunroof.
(07:03):
If you like it, great, but understand it's going to
be more money. I think a lot of designers look
at a budget and they don't even show certain products.
And that's not fair either, because if I'm sitting on
a ninety degree day and a Toyota pulls up, same
as mind it's got a Sunrif I'm going to go,
why didn't the salesman talk to me about a sign?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
If I would have loved that?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yep, yeah exactly. And I think so you know that
what is a good design? I mean you could you know,
you could debate that for forever. You know there and
we do some right exactly. And you know, good design
can be esthetics, it can be function, it should be both,
and there's all kinds of other things that go into it,
you know, in the in the in the remodeling world,
(07:40):
you know, we're we're not only looking at designing this project,
but you know, this project, whether it's kitchen, bathroom, edition, whatever,
is fitting into an existing house or we're onto it now.
You know that and that that there's some real challenges there.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Number one, we wanted to blend, we wanted to look,
but where do you stop? In other words, you know
we're going to do this addition and I like this
new look of black windows or what have you, or
I like this new trim molding. Well does that mean
we're replacing all the doors in the casings, on the
windows and the rest of the house. You know, it's
there are all kinds of things that come into that.
(08:19):
But again, you know, knowing as the contractor who's going
to build it and having that experience of what things
do cost, you can guide you know, your job is
there to help that homeowner. We're not here to sell
you something. We're helped to guide you and our expectese
is going to say, you know you want to do this,
(08:40):
what about this, We've done this before, We've seen this before,
this really works well in this situation? Or what if
we did this to be able to at least see it,
explore it and know what that might cost. Is it
going to add to the project and then be able
to make a decision based on real information as maybe
that's a value to me, But if I don't know
(09:02):
as a homeowner that that was even possible. And my
project's all done, and then I go to my friend's
house and they have one of these and go, why why.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Didn't you tell right? Why didn't you tell me about that?
You know, I think you were touching on it in
kind of around about way. One of the things that
I think differentiates you and myself and kursioner remodeling and
construction is that the designers were actually craftsmen before they
were designers. So you were building, wearing a tool belt,
(09:30):
had hammers, all of that, as was I. So that
gives you kind of an in depth vision of what
can be done. And you know, I don't think a
lot of times with designers more than architects, but designers
they don't realize how long it's going to take to
create what they're doing. And that's where the labor disparagement
(09:51):
comes in. People look at it and go, well, they
told me it was going to be this much, and
you're telling me it's going to be guess what we
got to build it?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yep. Okay, So whenever.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
You put curves in drywall, or if you're going to
have niches and showers, that takes time. And to do
it right. And that's what we bring to the table
when we talk about this. So I think, you know,
when you look at the design build world, you really
want to deal with people who are in design that
have actually done the work.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Right, which is hard to find, right, hard to find.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
And you know, and that's the word designer. You know,
what is that really mean? Right?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Right?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
So you know, I've heard that that term has kind
of become now the catch all for salesperson. You know,
in other words, this X y Z company doesn't have
salespeople anymore. We're going to send a designer to your house.
Well that's great. Are they a designer or are they
really the salesperson?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well, and you know, Chris, just because you have some
piece of paper from some online university in Guam, okay
that says you're a designer. Here's the bottom line. And
I've been saying this down at the show, and this
is going to be a little bit arrogant, but it's
just the truth. You know, they walk by our booth
and there's a twenty foot sheelf. I know it's twenty
feet because the booth is twenty feet and there's pieces
(11:06):
of glass seventy five eighty pieces of glass sitting on
their awards of work that we've done that have been
judged by industry peers in the same business and probably
many of them who have projects in the same competitions.
So you look at that and now, does that mean
it's a good designer? I would say yeah, does because
you know you've got industry professionals looking at it, so
(11:27):
you know there is a little bit of arrogance that
comes along with that. And I think that that's what
I think as a homeowner. If I'm going to have
my motorcycle Paine, and I want to go to the
guy who's winning the awards, right, Okay, if you're going
to have your house none, you want to go to
the person. And I said, guy, I shouldn't say that.
It just we're all guys, right, But that's where we're at. Chris,
(11:49):
We're going to take a short break. When we come back.
I want to talk to you about because because you
and I have had some of this as well, risks
of poor design. What are the risks you if you
don't have somebody that is a true design build designer.
And you know you and I have lived through many
of this, both through our roles at NARY and in
our personal business life. So I want to talk about
(12:10):
that because I think it's important. All Right, News Talk
eleven thirty WISN. We will return after these messages. News
Talk eleven thirty WSN returning from break Nick to Construction Group.
Listen if you're thinking about a project, I say on
every single show, as a matter of fact, I have
people coming up to me at the show, Chris, and
(12:32):
they're going you always say, get three estimates, So I
know they're listening. It's so cool, and I do because
you know it's a relationship business and clearly I'm not
the flavor for everybody, and you want to kind of
talk to the people that are going to be involved
in your house. Keep in mind that your contractor is
going to have access to your home, your pat your kids,
even your wife's longer rage rawers.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So it's a relationship.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You have to know who you're dealing with, and you
have to look at a track record. So Kurzner is
the only company in Wisconsin, the only company in Wisconsin
in our industry to win the Better Business Beer Torch
Award for Ethics and Integrity three times. Give us a
call two six two, five six seven are on the
world wide Web at Kurznerinc. Dot com. That's k E
(13:15):
r Z n E r I n C dot com.
If you're just tuning in, we are on.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It just came off the heels of the Home and
Garden Show, which is a great show, by the way,
They do a great job down there.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Loved it was.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It was crowded, it was well done, So kudos to
Amanda and your and your whole team down there. If
you were at the Home and Garden Show, I thought
it was laid out really well, but a lot of
questions were coming up, and you know, as we go on, Chris,
a lot of the people are starting to ask the
right questions so that the the information is getting out there,
(13:52):
especially about remodeling. Where it all starts is with a
good plan. And we've been talking about design, why it's important,
and now I want to kind of dovetail into this.
We talked about why good design is important, why using
industry experts, What is a designer, what are the qualifications?
(14:12):
I said in the last segment, it's always better to
use somebody who's worn the tool belt and kind of
developed their design as time goes on. One of the
things I noticed, Chris, because I was doing all the
design for our company before you and I started working
in concert together is it's kind of like Forsache. It's
(14:33):
kind of like Louis Vuitton. Everything starts to look like
it has a flavor to it when you're a designer. Okay,
So I think one of the reasons why I decided
to call on your expertise and work in collaboration with
you is because we needed to put some sprinkles on
the ice cream. We needed to change it a little bit,
because designers tend to have similar subjective ideas. I know,
(14:58):
blue gray is big right now. I've always been an
earth tone guy, so the lion's share of my projects
are done that way. You are able to change some
of that. So when we talk about poor design, because
obviously there's good design and there's bad design, what are
the risks of poor design? What would you say are
(15:20):
some of the risks of that?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Well, that's a broad you know, there's a lot of
things that could be poor design. Poor design could be
something that, you know, as we talked about earlier, that
just simply doesn't work from a construction standpoint, or isn't
the best way to handle something, whether it's structural, whether
it you know, it may be a water issue. In
(15:42):
other words, this design, yeah, we like it, this is great, whatever,
But that roofline of that addition tying into your house
is a real potential there for a leak or a
nice dam or something, especially here in Wisconsin, you know,
and you spoke to this. You know, designers know what
is their background? Have they Do they understand that or
(16:05):
is it just this looks really nice and yes, the
homeowner looks and goes, yeah, that looks great. Well, the
homeowner it's not their job to know that might be
a potential problem. But in my mind, it is that
designer and that design build firms or whoever's going to
build it.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
You know, you know, I'm laughing. I always like to
I always like to use analogies.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
As you know.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
I'm thinking about like when you're watching the Grammys or
the Oscars and you see some of these dresses that
the women wear and you're looking at it, You're going,
it's a really pretty dress. But if she walks, if
she if she extends her step another two inches, her
breast is going to fall out of the dress. Right,
and and and so functionality great point. You know, designers
(16:45):
looking to go we want it to be beautiful, we
want you to go wow, but how is it going
to work in its in its environment? And are you
going to be able to walk down the aisle without
the roof leaking?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
So it's it's like, I think that's a great point.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Oh no, that's why I was laughing at Yeah, you know,
but you know, so that's one aspect and that you know,
and that that really there's nothing but experience that's going
to get you to that point. You know. The other
thing you touched on there is you know, designers might
have a style, and there's nothing wrong with that. I
mean people, you know, people go to that dress designer
or that whatever because that is their style and they
(17:22):
like it. I've been doing this a very long time.
One of the things I like, and I think is
unique to me, is I like variety. In other words,
I just got done doing a sixty five hundred square
foot super modern custom home. Love it, but I also
love doing you know, the addition to this eighteen hundred's
(17:44):
farmhouse type of thing and everything in between. So that
that really and that's that's a personal thing. And that's
kind of back to your you know, either get three
estimates or talk to three people because again this relationship,
we need to find the right person, you know. And
and there may be does that's just awesome at you know,
doing condos downtown, But do I need them doing my
(18:05):
lake house? Maybe not. Maybe that's just not their niche.
And those are things that you'll just find out early
on so that you know, that's maybe not bad design,
it's just a bad fit. You know. Then in bad design,
you know again functional is the kitchen laid out properly?
Is it? Is it going to be easy to work in?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Or is it just pretty?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
And some designers have a real problem with with balance,
with balancing you know, traffic patterns and functionality with drama.
I've always been a drama guy, always with when I'm designing,
I want people to walk in and.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Go wow, yep, But why can't we have both exactly right?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But that's what comes with clients exactly, That's what comes
with sign and learning.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And that's you know, the it's very easy to make
really pretty pictures in the computer.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And go wow, that's that's so cool.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
I love it. Then to get halfway into the project
and have your contractor come to you and go, I
don't know what they were thinking here, but this doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, you know, and it's.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Going to cost you fifty thousand dollars more to make
it right though, those are the headaches we avoid in
the design build world through experience.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well, and you know what in the earlier segment, we
were talking about the disconnect between say, an outside firm
doing the design and another general contractor doing it. You know,
I think that a lot of times people look at
you know, I want to go to this person to
build it, but there's a there's such a huge disconnect
between the people that have to build it then and
(19:32):
the budget. And we talked, we talked a lot about
that when you're dealing with the other thing where I
was going with this is there's also a liability issue.
You know, when that bad roof line starts to leak,
is it the fault of the designer or is it
the fault of the contractor? And I'm not sure, but
I know it's going to take a Philadelphia lawyer to
figure it out. When you're dealing with the design build
(19:53):
firm and you know, cursioners on the blueprints, cursioners on
the contract. The truth is there's only one set of
shoulders to put the liability exactly. And so knowing that
we're not going to do something that you may may
want desperately, but we know isn't going to work. And
we've been in those I've had people, I want a
spiral staircase. Another guy wanted to pull that he could
(20:15):
slide down, and I'm like, this is not We don't
do this kind of stuff. It just doesn't make sense
to us. And I'm sure there's somebody out there that
will yep. But down the line, if something happens, that's it.
We touched on it a couple of minutes ago. So
there's there's two schools of thought with design build. You know,
people come to my booth and they tell me and again,
because we just we just finished up at the Home
(20:37):
and Garden show, I'm trying to keep this stuff fresh
that that people are asking. They'll say, well, why should
I pay for design one? The other guy's going to
do it for free. Let's talk about that. Okay, that
you love it? I got to get back up off
the Florida. Yeah, yeah, Well So one of the things
that that I tell them is I look at. I say,
look at, there's no such thing as free design, because
(20:58):
somebody's getting paid, somebody getting on salary, somebody's getting paid
per design. Somebody has to be paid for that, and
that goes into the company's overhead. So when you deal
with the company that says they're doing quotation marks free design,
that's going into their overhead, which means that not only
are you paying for your design when you do business
with that company, but you're paying for everybody's design who
(21:21):
didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Because it's in their overhead exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
And the other thing, and I'm gonna let you talk
in just a minute, but this is the other thing
I love because I say, you know what, if somebody
says they're doing something free for you, Like if you
come over and say, hey, Nick, I'm gonna cut your
grass for you today for free, and I look out
there and there's lines in the grass and you didn't
trim it, right, It's hard for me to really come
and bitch at you about it because you did it
for free when you're paying for design. And I've had people,
the funniest one I've ever had is. I showed them
(21:46):
my design for the kitchen. They looked at it, and
a Waite looked at me. She said, this sucks, and
you know what, good for you? Thanks for telling me, right,
because it's subjective, right, absolutely, If I was doing it
for free, she's not going to be able to hold
me accountable.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So what are your thoughts on free?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah? Yeah, well we might need three shows for this.
But as you said, first of all, nothing is free.
But at the same time, you know, what are you
getting with that free design. I've been doing this a
long time. I know what it takes to do design
(22:25):
to the level we do.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
What Okay, let me ask you this, Sorr. I'd interrupt again,
but it's so important. How many hours on the average
kitchen I know averages are scary. I always say if
you if you have put two buckets of water on
the floor, one with ice water, one with boiling water,
take your shoes and socks, put your feet in one
of each bucket. On the average you should be comfortable.
It illustrates extreme.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, but.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, a good a good kitchen design could be you know,
probably as little as twenty five hours and as much
as seventy five hours to do that, right, Yes, And
that's that's where I was going. You're right on, it's
you know, free design. Was that Oh my god, I
have a meeting with X y Z client tomorrow. I
(23:11):
better start knocking something out tonight so I can show
them something. Is that the free design? And believe me,
I see stuff. I mean I have homeowners come to
me with we met with so and so, and this
is the design they gave them, and they hand me this,
you know, eight and a half by eleven three page
thing and it's like, what is this?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
And then the program, the software that we use, that
program that we use to design, you know, that's a
five thousand dollars program. Well you could go to Office People.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
By subscription every year to keep Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
At Office People, I can get a thirty five dollars
program that I can make something look like a design,
you know, so that that you know, you get what
you pay for.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Well I always say you don't always what you pay for,
but you never get what you don't pay for, you know.
So it's like I will and I hate to say
this because I know there's a lot of companies doing this,
but I always look at free design as a shield
for the next step in the sales program. So we're
going to hand you something to keep you involved. Okay,
I'm way past the time in my career where I
need to hand you something to stay involved. We're way
(24:20):
busier than we have to worry about trying to get
the people and and and creating this unrealistic thing. Chris,
we got about two minutes left. Let's hit on the
three most important things about design and again we're going
to do this again next week because we're going to
talk about design some more. So what people are looking
for design? Three?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
What do you think the three biggest.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Well, I think the first thing is information? You know
what what is this project? Is it to solve a problem?
Is it to enhance a lifestyle? Is it a statics?
Is it all of those things? So knowledge, you know,
knowing exactly what what are we trying to solve, What
are we trying to accomplish? Then you know what what
(24:59):
we're doing, and how is it blend with the existing home?
Is it going to match? Is it going is it
not supposed to match? Is it something that down the
road they're going to be changing siding? So this should
be that what's what's going on there? So all those
things play into good design. But ultimately, at the end
of the day, what is the homeowner after What are
they trying to accomplish? Is this going to do it?
(25:22):
Is it going to do it for the best value?
Is it going to add value to the home from
a whether it's resale or equity standpoint, All of those
things are part of good design. Did I do something
that is so unique that I better live here untill
they carry me out in a pine box because nobody's
buying this. And if that's your idea, good for you,
(25:46):
Good for you, no problem. I've done all kinds of
crazy stuff that nobody else would buy, but that's what
they wanted. But knowing that and and designing towards that end,
I think it's just a matter of, you know, getting
as much information and from the homeowner as to what
they're really trying to do, and then letting our expertise
and knowledge and experience guide them. And that's what we're
(26:08):
here for. We're not here to sell you what we like.
We're here to guide you to get the most for
your money, the most value, the most aesthetics, the most function,
And that's what we're here. We want to be sitting
side by side with you at the table, not across
the table from you trying to sell yourself.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, great points. Listen, we're going to do this again
next week. Thanks for coming in on a Sunday. We're
out of time, so tune in next week. We're going
to continue this all about design on Newstalk eleven thirty
to be isn
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