Emergency pod: Rockets lose Fred VanVleet to ACL tear

Monday’s emergency podcast features a roundtable forum of Ben DuBose, Paulo Alves, and Dave Hardisty (@ClutchFans) reacting to Fred VanVleet’s potentially season ending ACL tear. Topics include the Rockets’ internal and external options to fill his role at point guard, as well as why the shocking news isn’t necessarily the end of Houston’s 2026 championship hopes.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome to The Logger Line, an exclusive
podcast from the home of the Rockets, Sports Talk.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Seven ninety.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
The Logger Line. It's proudly served to you by car
Box Clutch City.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Lagger It is god O Ye Red Nation.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Get Ready, Ready, Get Ready The lagger Line.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
It starts now. Welcome aboard, Welcome in to an unfortunate,
breaking news episode of The logger Line. As always, I'm
your host, Ben Dubos. Today I'm joined by Polo Alves,
my usual co host and producer out of Portugal, and

(00:49):
Dave Hartsey, editor of Clutch Fans space here in Houston.
You can follow me on social media at Bendubo's, Paolo
at Palo Alves NBA, and Dave at Clutch Fans. Off
the top that it's an unfortunate episode on this Monday,
September twenty second, and that's because, as you probably know
by now, Fred Vliet tore his right acl while working
out in the Bahamas. We mentioned on the last pod

(01:12):
that the Rockets were about to start their unofficial team
mini camp in advance of training camp. That's what this was,
and I'm told that when it happened, Fred really didn't
think it was a big deal. He just sort of
twisted his knee the wrong way landed. Funny. It happens
all the time in competitive basketball, and he really didn't
think that much of it. But obviously you're going to
do imaging can be on the safe side, and the
results are what they are. And full disclosure, if this

(01:35):
pod doesn't sound quite as polished as they sometimes do,
we're basically doing no editing on this one. We know
you guys want content, so pretty much as soon as
we stop recording, I'm going to send this live. So
if there are some excessive oms or pauses, then whatever
time is definitely of the essence here. Anyway, on today's pod,
we're going to talk about what the implications are moving forward. Obviously,

(01:58):
the Rockets are now without their starting point guard and
their locker room leader. In terms of options, they could
start Reach Shepherd, they could go jumbo and start Amn
Thompson at point guard and then someone like Tory Eesen
on the wing, or maybe they go double big. There
are honestly quite a few options. It's a very deep team,
and I guess that's a little bit of a silver
lining on a day that otherwise really sucks. So, Dave,

(02:21):
I want to start with you, because obviously you've been
following this team for decades. You've had Clutch Fans, the
blog at clutch fans dot net operational since the mid nineties.
Twenty twenty five is obviously the thirty year anniversary since
the Rockets last won an NBA championship, and the expectations
since you added Kevin Durant a couple of months ago,
or that this team was one of your best opportunities
to finally end that drought, and now you get this

(02:43):
bombshell literally one week before training camp opens at the
end of September. So, Dave, what were your initial thoughts
when you heard the news? And I'm just curious, how
does it stack up historically when you think of just awful,
unlucky developments to just suddenly rock this organization.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
That's a good question, actually, you know, for me, you know,
the off season I thought was kind of done early.
You know, were the Rockets traded for Kadi and you know,
no draft and things were just kind of quiet.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Obviously they added.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Dorian Anthony Smith later, but it's just been this tremendous
expectations going into this season and you know, I was
starting to gear up to get back into it starting
on you know, Monday, like you mentioned, his media day
and training camp set to open. And as you know, Ben,
you know you heard the rumor. We started discussing it

(03:32):
this morning about Fred van Vliet tearing his acl int
the Bahamas, and we didn't know if that was a
vicious rumor or if it was true or what. And uh,
you know, we started digging to find out about that,
and there was there was a lot of smoke and
things that made us think, okay, this might be true,
but we could not get that confirmation and assumed we'd

(03:52):
have to just sit and wait for.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
For Shams or somebody to confirm that.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
And and when he did, it was just you know, know,
Fred van Vliet is to me, the last you know,
a couple of years, is probably the one player you
could not afford to lose. Doesn't necessarily mean he's one
hundred percent the best player, but but probably the most important.
The leadership factor, just the ability to settle the team

(04:17):
down plays both ends of the floor unique and in
a winning player, a guy who impacts winning. You know,
you probably can add KD now to that, as can't
afford to lose. Maybe a Men has worked his way
into that too, But you know, and Shangoon certainly is amazing,
but you've got a lot of depth behind him. You
don't really quite have that behind a Fred van Vliet.

(04:38):
You hope to have it with Reed Shepherd. A Men
can maybe take over as a point guard. But to
answer your question, I don't want to say Fred van Vliet,
as good as I think he is, that he's on
the level of a Yow or a team act. But
it does it does remind me of that where the
rug is pulled out from underneath you. Things are just
looking so good and then yank, you know, something happened

(05:00):
with Yao's foot or Tracy's knee, and you know he's out,
like in O seven oh eight, for example, in the playoffs.
It's that kind of a thing where I mean, this
team's still going to be good, just like those teams
were when they lost McGrady and then they lost Yao.
They're still going to be good. But I think if
it doesn't kill the actual championships championship hopes, and I

(05:21):
do think they have legit hopes, it's certainly harmed it
quite a bit and that's what you know.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
You just just feels a little somber to get that news.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, And for purposes of this pod, I'm going to
assume Fred is out for the season. The Rockets have
not announced that. In fact, for my conversations today, they
are very much leaving the door open to a return
by the playoffs. However, for purposes of team building and planning,
I think the assumption has to be that he's out
typically ACL recoveries or somewhere in the neighborhood of eight

(05:51):
to twelve months. It's seven months from now until the
playoffs start in mid April. He's going to undergo surgery
this week. Perhaps that helps him because some of the
timetables guys have taken their time with when they have
their surgeries. I'm told he's gonna do it almost immediately,
so maybe that will help. It's not like Friday's the
shiftiest guy to begin with. He's primarily out there for
his shooting. He's organization. But even if he does come back,

(06:15):
first off, it's unlikely. And secondly, I don't think you're
gonna throw him out there in a thirty plus minutes
per game role ie starters minutes after barely playing all
year and being one of the shortest ACL recoveries in
NBA history. If it happens, you take it as a bonus,
and it's probably gonna be a fifteen to twenty minutes
per game bench roll. I think for planning out this season,

(06:35):
you have to assume that he's not gonna be available
until this time a year from now, and if something
happens to change that, you take it as a pleasant surprise,
and you know that it's probably going to be a
smaller role rather than a larger one. It just is
what it is. And Pallo, I'll move over to you
full disclosure to our audience, I'll peel back the curtain.
You were actually the first person that I heard whispers

(06:58):
of this from. You actually messaged me late Sunday night
about it, and at the time the source was quite unproven,
and so neither of us really knew what to make
of it. Obviously, I think we were both hoping that
it was fake or trolling something like that. But it
did strike me as an unusually random and specific thing
for somebody to make up, Like if you were gonna,

(07:20):
you know, try and bait people into a reaction, you'd
say KD or men someone like that toward their acl
for fredvan Fleet. It was so random that it was
also hard for me to think that it was made up.
So I did some digging Monday in advance of Schams
breaking the news, and what I'll say is I definitely
did not get a denial, So for me, there was

(07:42):
sort of this slow sinking realization and then at two
fifty six pm Houston time, that's when Sham shocked the
tweet confirming it. So, Paulo, I think you had even
more lead time than Dave and I did in terms
of processing all of this. What is the last twenty
four hours been like for you and terms of making
sense of what happened as well as your immediate reaction

(08:04):
as to what it potentially means for this season.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
Yeah, as it said, it's it's something too oddly specific
for someone to be making up, Like if you wanted
to go for Max, you know react and obviously you're
going for KD or maybe even Shingun or or Man.
And it's just with these things, it's always hard because
there's no randomly people will say stuff, and there's a
lot of those fake inside the guys online, So it

(08:31):
was always like first time, my first time I heard
of the rumor, it was actually like three am Sunday,
Sunday night for me, and I was like, there's no
way like that that's gonna be made ups. Got to
be one of those no instances of stuff that people
just make up to protect they have sources or stuff
like that. But then as time went on, and then
and then as lack of confirmation, because this is something

(08:54):
that you really, you really easily can just say, hey,
is has tried towards a cl and you expect to
reply that, oh, of course it doesn't hasn't turn anyth out.
It's ridiculous. And when that ransom doesn't come, it becomes,
you know, harder, our reality starts to sink in. As
far as how it impacts the team, I think they've
made a really good point that he is probably the

(09:16):
least replaceable guy on the team, not necessarily because of
this quality, but because of how the team was structured.
And we talked about this throughout throughout the off season,
or on how the Rockets were really banking on reach Chepbard. Well,
it turns out they were buying even heavier on Fred
than Leet and he has been an iron man throughout
his career, but going into the season now, I think

(09:38):
there's there's a few things that you have to kind
of set your expectations for or kind of storylines that
can have going into it. The first one is, and
to just dismiss all speculation, the Rockets are not in
a position in which they can sign a minimum contract.
We've talked about this throughout the throughout the off season,
and now we can say it just off the top,

(10:00):
because I'm sure you're going to have a lot of
people that haven't kept up up to this point. The
Rockets cannot sign often Brogden or Russell Westbrook or trade
for a guide that's making a minimum contract because since
it's the off season, guys that sign new contracts can't
be traded until the December fifteenth. And the Rockets are right
up against the Apron And even if they wanted to,

(10:22):
this is on a tax issue. The Rockets are already
paying tax. They are not allowed for the CBA to
go over the first apron threshole because they spend the
money of the MLA signing Torrian Smith. So you can
throw that out of the window. The only way they
can get a minimum guy will be December fifteenth if
they trade away Gosha Kobe, because if you trade someone away,

(10:44):
you're decreasing your salary and you could make up space
to sign to sign for someone for the minimum. Another
option would be waiting a little bit longer, and as
the prow raaded salary goes down and down, the Rockets
would be able to use their I think one point
two five million haven't in space will the apron to
sign a pro rate of min minimum.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
At that point?

Speaker 5 (11:05):
So how does that How does that impact the season
as a whole. I think it's fairly easy to predict
what the Rockets will do. This ison't sourced, nothing, nothing
like that at all. But just because their only playable
guys are a managing and tarrieson Kd', it will just
be you wouldn't move one of those pieces to try

(11:26):
and get a point guard because those are the guys
you're building around. So going into the season, what's expected
and what I would expect is they'll try to run
a an ed point guard, they'll run Aaron Holiday, they run,
they'll run Reed Shepherd and see how those guys can
handle it. I hope that the team stays a float
somewhat until the Sumber fifteenth, and at that point you

(11:48):
revisited and you have up until the deadline to make
up your mind and the side Okay, is this something
you want to invest into? Is it something that's worth
spending assets to kind of fix, or are we're just
going to run with what we have. And I think
there's a decent chance that Amen Thompson just makes that
lead or that we Shepherd's a lot better than what

(12:11):
we saw in Summer League. I think the most likely
scenario is that Aaron Holliday stays being the rock that
he has been off Houston speech and you have, and
I think that's a pretty known quantity. The biggest question
mark is is a man ready to be a lead ballhandler?
And this doesn't mean just having a good handle and making.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
The right leads.

Speaker 5 (12:31):
It's all of the leader hit that comes with it,
getting the team into sets, all of that stuff. You
can count on KB for some help with that, but
we've seen throughout Kaby's career that he's not exactly a
Ford general type. Even though he can use his scoring
gravity to set up other guys, he's not necessarily the
guy he wants setting the team into plays every single play.

(12:52):
So I think outlooking to the season is what we
expected to be a fifty post win season may still
be that, but it's less likely. It's more likely that
they lose games just because of a man adapting to
that role and you know, your temper, those expectations down
a little bit. But at the same time, it also

(13:13):
has some bright spots. You know, a man having more usage.
We saw how how it can look, like, namely the
Celtics game where he completely went off when further than
Leet wasn't playing.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
You know, the.

Speaker 5 (13:25):
Upside is still there. It's just tough to put a
floor on this team, and we might lose some games
to teams that just randomly got hot because we struggle
to get into sets or we turn the ball over.
It it is what it is. But I don't think
the season's ruined just because we lost Revan Fleet, even
though he's really important. And I guess we'll get to

(13:48):
see some of these guys sink or swim, and how
they sink or swim will also affect how you build
them into the future, both past this season. So it's
just a lot to digest at one point, but I'm
not throwing down the towel at all, saying we're not
a contender anymore. I think we're a contender. I think
the upside is still there to win the championship. I'm

(14:11):
just not sure if the floor is there as well,
because you're going from one of the most proven point
guards in the league that plays off ball, that has
that chapions hit DNA to I mean Thumbton, who's really good,
but we're not sure it's quite ready for that croolier.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Well. One thing I want to make clear, and I
think some of the initial reaction on social media is
missing the mark on this point, the Rockets do not
have a quantity problem. They potentially had a quality problem,
not for sure, But when it comes to replacing Fred
and Fleet, I've been very surprised by the mention of
the first apron situation and all the what if thing

(14:49):
of oh if not for being hard capped, the Rockets
could sign Russell Westbrook or Ben Simmons or someone like that. No,
the Rockets already have quality NBA guards. This is a
deep team that weren't even in their projected day one rotation.
Aaron Holliday, who you mentioned, Joshua Kogi These are solid
NBA players that fit well into the emy Udoka culture.

(15:12):
I don't think the Rockets, even if they could sign
someone necessarily would they trust the options towards the end
of their bench. They also have jay Shon Tate who
can play make a little bit. They have JD. Davidson,
the MVP of the G League last year. The issue
is not quantity. They do not just need another body
and all of a sudden they're not going to be

(15:33):
able to fill the minutes. No. Guys like Aaron Holliday
and Joshua Kogi. I think those are the first guys
that will get a look outside of the obvious and
Reed Shepherd in terms of going further down your bench
and the trickle down effect, they'll get the first opportunity.
It's not that the outlook would be significantly better if
they weren't hard capped. No, the guys available to sign

(15:54):
for an end of the bench role, a guy that
hasn't signed by now, he typically hasn't signed for and
so that's not the problem. The issue is the quality.
And obviously you hope that Reed Shepherd will take a leap,
perhaps sooner than some of us had expected. If not,
maybe there's some trade possibilities. We'll get into that. The

(16:15):
Rockets are very limited now and so that restriction is real.
They have to wait until December fifteenth January fifteenth, when
guys they signed this offseason are trade eligible, potentially including
Fred himself at the quasi expiring salary. He does have
a player option for next season. That restriction is real,
and so it could cost you half the season in waiting.

(16:37):
Although I guess the counterpoint to that, I do think
that as long as you get in the top six,
records aren't as important as they used to be. We've
seen home court advantage in the playoffs, and obviously the
Rockets saw it last year against the Warriors, meaning less
and less with teams shooting more threes. Honestly, you can
win on the road. You can lose big games at home,

(16:59):
as the Rocket did with Game one and Game seven.
So as long as the Rockets get in the top
six and they don't have to go through the variants
of the play in tournament in these one game scenarios,
then especially with Kevin Durant, you'll take your chances, and
maybe you have Fred back by then as well. Although
you're certainly not planning on it. So perhaps it cost
you a few games, but there is a way that

(17:21):
you can rectify it by the middle point of the
season anyway, and as long as you're in the top six.
I really don't think it's a huge deal in the
grand scheme. So I really don't think the first apron
restrictions and the types of guys you could get for
minimum resources or close to it are really needle movers
in the grand scheme. I think that reaction is missing
the forest for the trees. The issue is replacing the

(17:44):
quality of Fredinfleet a very good NBA player. Is Reed
Shepherd able to do that? Is Men Thompson able to
do that at point guard? And then if he is,
can you replace his wing minutes with someone like Atari
Easen or Dorian Phinny Smith. Those are the questions, And Dave,
I want to bring you in on this point. When
I was talking to people inside the building at Toti
Center today, I was told a couple of things. One

(18:06):
quote that resonated with me was the training wheels are off.
You know we've joked amongst ourselves about, you know, what's
the marketing slopan going to be? Last couple of years.
You know, they've gone from light to fuse to lift off.
This year's phrase, if they wanted it to, based on
the amount of times I heard it today, could be
the training wheels are off. And to some extent it
was already trending in that direction already. Obviously they've gone

(18:28):
from Dylan Brooks and some of the veterans they've had. Well,
now Fred and Dylan are both gone, the guys who
sort of brought in as your culture resetters in twenty
twenty three, and you're going to be really leaning into
the young guys and giving them opportunities to take that
next leap. I guess you do still have a veteran
in KD, but he's Knew as well. So the culture

(18:49):
centers are gone, and you have to hope that this
foundation that you've built these last couple of years, that
some of these young guys are ready and able to
take the next step in their development. And so the argument,
as it was presented to me, was that the floor
is lower, as Paolo I think you pointed out, but
the ceiling isn't in that without the training wheels of

(19:11):
FREVN Fleet, you're going to be giving even more opportunities
to guys like Amn Thompson, All French and Goon Reed Shepperd,
guys who could be top shell playmakers. Maybe they aren't yet,
but they're going to get opportunities. And the other argument
that was made that really resonated with me. If the
Rockets are to win a championship this season, which they
were amongst the championship contenders, but I mean the thunder

(19:34):
were pretty dominant last year sixty eight and fourteen and
went through the playoffs. Well, they did get pushed to
elimination twice, but the point is they're juggered out that
shown they're only going to get better. The Rockets didn't
feel that they were likely to win a championship even
before today unless a Men Thompson became an all NBA
level player, not just an All Star and all NBA
talking top fifteen, top ten good. Well, the odds of

(19:57):
that happening this season may have actually improved a little
bit with this fredman Fleet injury because a Men's going
to get even more opportunities and more responsibilities. Now, does
it mean he's gonna come through? Absolutely not. There's definitely
some squinting, some wish casting trying to make lemonade out
of lemons. I understand that I'm not saying that this
isn't spin. It is, and I think the Rockets would

(20:18):
acknowledge it as well. But in terms of actually winning
a championship breaking the drought, I think you needed a
men Thompson to be elite. You may need all pri
In Shrangoon or Reed Shepherd to take leaps as well.
And so from that standpoint, the ceiling is just as
high as it was before, and perhaps even higher, and
so there's more anxiety. But I don't necessarily agree with

(20:42):
the framing that this is crushing or devastating, or that
the Rockets can't overcome and get back to, you know,
the expectations we had for this season twenty four hours ago.
It's a lot more uncertain. There's a lot more nerves,
a lot more anxiety, and I think that's true inside
the building as well. But while the floor is lowered,
the ceiling isn't and so at least from that perspective,

(21:04):
there's not any reason to be less excited about the
potential of this year's team. Dave, does that characterization make
sense to you?

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah, it does. I mean it's a good point.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
I do think if you're trading for a thirty seven
year old Kevin Durant.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
I mean you and I talked about this before.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
I do think you need to be confident or believe
that you can win a championship. Doesn't mean it's a
failure if you don't. But at the same time, he's
thirty seven, there are only a few years left. You
would you would think, at least with Kevin Durant that
you know, I think that they're going for it in
that sense, but I agree with the assessment that to

(21:41):
do that you need a man to make another leap.
I mean, you just look at how much he progressed
from year one to year two, and if you see
that again in year three, then maybe that's that is feasible. Obviously,
the ads an outside jumper. You know, we'll see if
that ever makes to be seen, if it can, if
it can happen. But if he does, this guy could
be an absolute terror. He's already one of one, or

(22:01):
as people like to point out with us, are maybe
you know, one of two type athlete, truly unique in
so many ways, and I think he's got enormous potential.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
So I will say this, you know, as you talked.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
About A men in Red are the are the two
that you're looking at first and foremost. That they're, you know,
twenty three and twenty one years old, it's probably a
little early for them to at least for Reed to
take over. But he's going to, you know, get an
early baptism here. He's going to learn quickly. As you
pointed out, I think the goal was for Fred to
bridge to read eventually. I just don't think looking at

(22:35):
him last year, he's quite ready for that. But he
will probably progress quite a bit this year. But I
think the good thing and I know you guys have
probably heard the same. They rave about the offseason that
some of these guys have had. Tabari shngon A men read,
conditioning working improving and A men in Red are two
of the four that at least I have heard those

(22:58):
four players be mentioned as having had great off seasons.
So we'll see. Obviously camp is not very far away here,
but we'll see if a man Reid can step in
and fill that void. It's just there's so many qualities
from the experience that Fred van Vliet has that you
just can't quite pick up right away. Reid is going

(23:19):
to be end up probably being a better shooter than
Fred van Vliet, and he has point guardability.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's just going to take some time.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
A men, on the other hand, is progressing so rapidly
that he might just prove to be as good as
they hope.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, I'll be honest. When the news first broke, my
inclination was that a men would start at point guard
and then it'd be next man up at the winging
spots and you'd put either Tari or Dorian Phinney Smith
or maybe even the double big with Steven Adams and
Alfie starting together. After talking to people inside the building,
I'm less convinced of that. I think think Reid is

(24:00):
going to get a very long look in the next
few weeks, and if I had to bet, unless he
has a bad opening week of training camp, I actually
think Reid will start to begin the preseason. I think
they want to give him a real opportunity. They think
the need for shooting, ball handling, actual point guard skills
for more than one position, because it's not like a

(24:21):
man's not going to be there. He's still going to
be there. But I think you want a men and
one other ball handler. I e. What Fred would have
been in that starting lineup, and then you use Kevin
a little bit more off ball. Obviously, there's the benefits
of his shooting, the gravity, everything that comes with that,
and so I think they're going to give Read a
long leash, perhaps a longer one than I expected. I've

(24:42):
been told he's had a very strong offseason. It doesn't
feel like that amongst the fan base, because the couple
of games he played at Summer League were relatively underwhelming,
but there were some obvious circumstances there. The players that
were alongside him were absolutely terrible. And I'm told pretty
strongly that inside the building he has a lot of fans.

(25:04):
They really like what they've seen. And Pollo, I'll bring
you in on this point because I know you've been
a skeptic of Read in the past. But honestly, one
of the concerns that I know I've had, and I
can't remember if you shared this, Palwoll, but I'm guessing
to some extent you did the tricky thing with Read
in a backup role was that for his archetype to work,

(25:26):
you know, the efficiency's always going to be there if
he shoots threes at volume. It's like that Clipper game
where he really strowed out to begin Summer League. At
the end of the game, the box score was really good,
but there were long stretches where it wasn't. It's just
it takes until you put up fifteen threes sometimes and
all of a sudden, you know, if you're shooting forty
percent on threes at that volume, your true shooting is
going to be pretty damn good. And if you're also

(25:46):
getting you know, seven or eight stocks, then even if
you get beaten defensively a few times because you're not
big enough or moving well enough side to side, well, ultimately,
if you're true shooting is really good, and you're shooting
forty percent from three at volume and you're getting seven
or eight stocks in a game steals and blocks, then
you can live with that. You can work with it,
especially when there's upside to get a lot better. But

(26:08):
one of the concerns that I had was how is
that going to translate to a backup role where obviously,
and we saw this as a rookie, he's gonna get
a little bit gun shy if it's in a limited sample,
i e. If he starts off zero for four, he's
not gonna want to go like one of nine in
ten minutes and tank the game himself alone, and so
there's not enough time for that sample to normalize. As

(26:28):
a starter, his numbers were very good, and I think
the difference he felt free he played loose, he was
a lot more empowered. And so we're gonna see if
he starts that version of Read Shepherd. Beyond the sample
size argument, which I think is real, just a couple
of summer league games, bad competition, bad supporting cast, I
should say. I also think there's something to the idea

(26:50):
that if you empower Read and he's gonna have the
opportunity now, and you let him play thirty thirty five minutes,
then some of these concerns that we've had about Reading
a smaller role, they've actually be a little bit mitigated
if you give him much more freedom, you give him
the minutes, the opportunity to make mistakes, to learn from
his mistakes without constantly looking over his shoulder. I'm not

(27:11):
saying the overall impact is gonna be the same or
better than Fred van Fleet, but it might be better
than what it would be as a reserve Powloa. Does
that make sense to you and as someone that's been
a little bit of a skeptic on Read, at least
based in Summer League. What do you think of my
sunshine pumping there as it pertains to reads ability if
he actually does end up starting day one.

Speaker 5 (27:33):
So I'm still confident about the season, but it's not
necessarily because I believe in Reed and it well, let
me put that in a nicer way. It's not that
I don't believe in Reed, is just I don't believe
he's ready yet. I think the season's going to go
well actually because I think Aaron holly They also has
a very scalable skill set, and I think the prime

(27:53):
example that is on everybody's minds is that game like
this my memory tells me of a game against the Warriors.
But I think there's been multiple points over the last
two seasons where the Rockets that need the production of
the bench, namely when jillen Ring's not playing well, and
that Aaron Holliday has been has come through in those situations.

(28:18):
As far as Reid goes, I think that's really interesting
that they considered perhaps even starting the two of them
Read and the men together. And I did agree with
you going back a few a few pots ago when
we were analyzing Summer League, and this is the point
that we've both made over the last season, is that

(28:39):
Reed's production when he starts is a lot better or
just the master trove be better compared to when he
plays a backup ro You can go back to the
l C, d A, the l E, L, the Brooklyn
and the OKC games last season and stop three stopped
four most with most minums played over twenty five minutes
a night, and he he shot fifty three percent and

(29:00):
thirty three percent from three on higher volume, which which
tells me that perhaps if you give him one or
two threes a game, he might go over two and
over in a month. That's a terrible shooting percent. But
if you give him six, seven, eight shots, now you're
starting to see him go, you know, four for eight,
six percent, three for seven, you know, three for nine
is acceptable but not great.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Like you're going.

Speaker 5 (29:22):
You're getting a lot better results. And maybe he's just
one of those guys that needs a little bit more
volume to get into a rhythm. And it's always hard,
especially for a young guy to just come in in
any given game and play for a little minute and
be productive in those minutes. Maybe he's one of those
guys that needs just to watch their sample. That being said,
that's not necessarily where I'm really that concerned with him.

(29:45):
It's mostly about you know, the handle, which group will
could really shakey when ball pressure was on in summer league.
And yeah, summer league is is exactly the type of
league where they've all pressured every single possession and it
will make it look you know, harder than maybe in
the NBA. But if teams know that that's a weakness,
they're going to exploit that, especially if you start, you know,

(30:05):
as at everyday point card. I think personally, you know,
maybe they'll give Read the starting spot for you know,
a week, two weeks, but I don't think that's gonna
work out, you know that well, I think they'll eventually
settle into you know, maybe a middle rm between the two.
Maybe maybe you don't go full length with a man,

(30:26):
you know, Tari or Darlin, Finnis Smith, kd Tewari and Shingun.
Maybe you go to guards, but those guards are a
man and a holiday for example. Maybe that's what you
try and do. But I'm sorry, I'm just not that
confident that at least earlier in the season that you
can you know, rely on read that heavily just because

(30:47):
you know, call it, call it being overly pessimistic. But
we've been spent before by guard by by guard projects,
and at this point with prospects, I'm at a I'll
believe it when I see it, and I've and I
believe a Man because I've seen it from and I

(31:07):
believe Shingun because I've seen it from Shinghun. I believe
it from Tarrian and Savari because I've seen it from
Tarian and Clavari. That may be the look they go
with early in the season, but I think eventually they'll
settle on either Aaron Holiday and men Thompson or and
which which I think is going to be what is

(31:28):
going to want to do the full went lineup and
just their teams to outscore a team with a defense
as insane as that lineup would be. Like, I think
eventually Ema is going to defall to his roots and say, hey,
it's an our offense is important that well anyway, or
sorting the ball over a lot, you know, I'm going
to dare you to score on a team that has

(31:51):
you know, what are probably four plus defenders on any
given let and so at basically every at basically every position.
So if I had to predict, I think they'll set
alone to that. I don't want to write Richlepard off.
But I also think that it's a I think it's
a bit early for this to be his make or

(32:13):
break season. So I think even if it doesn't go well,
you shouldn't, you know, just you know, kick him to
the corner. And I think he's still very young, and
even if this exercise doesn't go very well, I do
still think that he has applied for the future. It's
just that, you know, we've learned over and over and
over again, it's very rare that our point guard comes
into the league and he's immediately good, even for a

(32:35):
couple of years. Like point guards take a long time
to develop. And so you know, I'm both not confident
that we will be that good the season, but at
the same time confident that he will be good eventually.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Just perhaps it's still so well, Dave, let me ask
you about something that I've heard before today. So, and
I think I've shared this in previous pods. When the
Rockets made their big moves earlier this off season, and
they brought in, most notably Kevin Durant and Dorian Anthhinny Smith.
The way it was explained to me was they wanted
to get bigger and what their data showed them was

(33:10):
that they were really good last season in their one
guard lineups when it was either Fred or Jalen, but
they couldn't make it work with both, and so fast
forward to today. One of the scenarios that was thrown
out to me was what if you put Reed Shepherd
in a role similar to what Jalen had a year ago,

(33:30):
referring to those non Fred minutes, because in Jalen's defense, yeah,
the Rockets did function very well when it was Jalen
and four bigs or a combination of you know, wings
and bigs talking about both the forwards the Tari Jabari
and men types and of course Steven and Alpi in
the front court. What do you think, Dave about the

(33:50):
idea of, you know, putting Reed into something similar to
those Jalen lead lineups from a year ago, because I
don't think that's a crazy high bar. I mean, I'm
not trying to throw jail and Green under the bus,
but it's not like he had a great handle it's
not like he had a great outside shot. Now Read
isn't as big, He's not as athletically explosive. It's not

(34:12):
in apples to apples, But I don't think the bar
is crazy, crazy high. If we're talking about trying to replicate,
you know, Read in Four Bigs the success that Jalen
and Four Bigs had a year ago, what do you
think about about that potential model or template.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
But to be clear, you're you're saying Read doing this
off the bench not good because Jalen had the dual
role of starting and being along with those guys and
then also doing that.

Speaker 4 (34:35):
Are you talking about Reed just coming off the bench
doing that.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
No, I'm saying no, I'm saying conceptually the lineups that
he'll be out there with the four Bigs. Yes, for Jalen,
it was generally not with the starting lamps because with
the exception of I guess there was the month of
February and some of January that Fred was out with
the injury, so there was a little bit of time
that Jalen was the loan guard. But yeah, like mostly

(34:58):
it was Jalen doing it off the bench. In this case,
it'd probably be Read starting but just the idea that
you can function with a lineup of Read and four
bigs similar to how you could function with lineups of
Jalen and four Bigs from a year ago.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, I absolutely can see it, you know, And just
to not to avoid that question, but kind of ties
into it as well that I was talking about the
starting lineup.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
I mean, there you've.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
Lost three starters from last year, so you know, obviously
traded too, and now Fred's out, and I think on
paper you're better, but there's still that sort of chemistry
cohesion question and how they're going to play because they've
lost some key guys and at least certainly Dylan Brooks defensively,
Jalen Green with his speed, and you know, Fred just

(35:40):
in general all of his leadership.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
But I can see read it. I'm hoping.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Let me just say that I share some of what
Paolo's saying about Reid. I you know, it's defensively, I
think that's one of my big concerns. But I'm still
hopeful of the Steve Nash esque comp that we could
see from him as a point guard and a sharpshooter.
I've seen him run a pick and roll very effectively.
He moves really well, so I think he could do

(36:06):
the type of role that you're expecting. It's just there's
so much on paper that we don't know, and looking
at it, taking out Fred's thirty some odd minutes, because
you know, Emo Dooka leaned on him so heavily, I mean,
it comes out to me that it's going to be
probably a tick more for Jabari and Shangun. Tari's minutes
are going to come up, but Reads definitely. But I

(36:28):
still think right now, Read will probably come off the bench.
I think you're probably looking at a men kadie. I'm
gonna guess Jabari and Tari and then Shangun. But maybe
Dorian Finnie Smith replaces one of them, Tari or Jabari,
but that's what I would expect, and then you're running
with Adams, you know, Reid Capella and whoever doesn't start Tari,
Dorianfinney Smith Jabari off the bench. But I can see

(36:51):
redoing it, and I'm hopeful, Like I said, I want
to see a year or two leap from him.

Speaker 4 (36:56):
The shooting.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
I'm not even concerned. He hasn't been great, but he's
had games where the flashes show I'm not concerned about
that eventually showing out. It's just the other things, you know,
strength of being able to defend in a five man
unit and just being able to run an offense. So
I think he's going to grow quite a bit this
season well.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
And as far as the other starting lineup options, So
we did a pod Pallo and me last week looking
at the options when we thought you had four locked
in starters between fred Men, Kadi, and Shangoon, and we
came to the conclusion that was likely Jabari and Jory
on that would be the finalist for that fifth spot.
I've actually heard since then that Tari might be more

(37:38):
in that conversation than we had thought. I don't think
he's ahead of Jabari. He might be a little bit
ahead of Jeory Anthony Smith entering training camp. Now perhaps
some of that is just familiarity, but I think Tari
will definitely be in the conversation, if not to start,
at least to have even more minutes and usage because
of this injury. Dave, I've got to ask you about
Jabari because I think people know that you're a Jabari

(38:00):
and potentially, potentially this gives him a few more creation opportunities.
What do you think the trickle down effects are of
losing Fred for Javari? I mean the downside is that
you have less organization, you have less structure. The upside,
I mean there's gonna be a lot of possessions where
obviously you know, Amens Shaoon kd are you know, drawing

(38:23):
a ridiculous smount of attention on one side of the
court and we got a point guard. It may be
as simple as you know, give it to Javari on
the weak side against the other team's weakest defender and
let him go to work. What do you think this
means for him?

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Well, you know, it's funny. I think is going to
have a good year. I'm excited about Jabari. I'm not
super excited about necessarily his creation ability. I would love
to see him get more opportunities like you know, jumping
into him in the high post turn fire.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
I would love to see that that happen. So that
would be great.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
But you know, for me and my whole basketball philosophy,
it's really franchise players, three point guys who can bring
three point shooting and defense around those franchise players. And
so for me, where I'm looking for from Jabari is
just give me that forty three point shooting season. Give
me that the rebounding that he brings, the you know,
from the size and defense, and that to me makes

(39:15):
him a really good hybrid three four five with his size,
and that's what I'm looking for most out of them.
Creation would be fantastic, but it's never been, you know,
the kind of thing that I saw for him. I
never envisioned him being some sort of a Jason Tatum
esque player where you handed to them and he's you know,
creating all over the place. But I could see him

(39:37):
absolutely turning and firing you know, a lah LaMarcus Aldrins
or Katie Light, let's say. And I love the fact
that he's going to be working with Katie this season.
I just love that. I know they're different players, but
I think just him to watch Katie. The same thing
with Shangun watching Steven Adams last year and this year.
I mean, look at Shangoon and how much stronger he's

(39:58):
gotten and better conditioned. And I'm not going to totally
credit Steven Adams for that. Shng Gun's had three good
offseasons in a row in that regard, but you know,
that's the type of example that you want around Albert
Shangun for him to get in good shape and get stronger,
and the same thing Kadie for Jabari, in my opinion,
is going to be fantastic.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
All Right, as we wind down the pod, let's look
at the external possibilities we've spent most of this talking
about internally, because honestly, that's the way it's going to
be for the foreseeable future. Because the Rockets are hard
capped at the first apred it's not like they can
easily sign someone. But more importantly, as mentioned earlier, I

(40:41):
don't think the caliber of player available right now would
be better than Aaron Holliday or Josha Koge. Like I'm
seeing this viral tweet from Legion Hoops, the Rockets zero
cap space makes them ineligible to replace fredend Fleet with
any free agent, not Westbrook, not Ben Simmons, nobody, tough.
That's ridiculous. I don't think that those players are neil
movers in any way, and I don't think there is

(41:04):
any regret internally, And I'm not just speculating on this
that they signed Josh Jakogie instead of one of those guys.
They are not the types of players that you replaced
Fred and Fleet with. Ideally, it works out internally that
your younger players that have real upside take leaps, and

(41:24):
then perhaps by the end of the season Fred can
come back and limited capacity more realistically, maybe makes it
more likely to opt into the final year of his contract.
He has a player option for next season, and you
can sort of fit him in then, although maybe it's
an a lesser role because some of your young guys
take leaps. That's a long way away, but I think
for the here and now, we're talking about the internal

(41:45):
options because it's largely what the Rockets are going to do,
and it's really all they can do until midway through
the season. December fifteenth and January fifteenth, those are the
dates leaving up to the early February trade deadline that
guys who signed contracts in the off season become trade eligible,
including Fred himself. I have seen some talk. One thing

(42:06):
I want to address off the top when we're talking
about the external possibilities. Frevent Fleet does have an implied
no trade clause. However, I think it would be very
unlikely that he exercises that in a scenario where the
Rockets would want to move him because with him not
playing this year, he's not gonna be there most of
the time. He's gonna be on his couch. Why does
he care what owner is sending him checks? If the

(42:28):
checks are the same and he's not playing, why does
it matter to him? And if he doesn't like the situation,
he can become a free agent next off season. The
Rockets had a good relationship with Fred. I'm not saying
it's impossible, but I would be very surprised if he
blocked a trade, given that he's not gonna be playing anyway,
and he can become a free agent next off season,
I be very surprised. That is more of a theoretical

(42:51):
roadblock than a realistic one, in my opinion. But there
is the question of who you would actually bring it,
because once you get past December fifteenth, Januber of fifteenth,
then guys like Fred van Vleet at twenty five million dollars,
Dorian Finny Smith at about thirteen, Steven Adams at thirteen
on a certainly don't think you'd want to use Steven.

(43:12):
Certainly you're lesser guys. Aaron Holliday, Jay Sean's hate, Jeff Green.
All these guys you signed this off season, Clint Capella
becomes trade eligible and so then you can you can
pull salaries. You also have a lot of future draft equity.
I know you don't want to use it, but one
of the reasons you build up a draft stock pile
is in case of emergencies, and this is an emergency.

(43:33):
If it looks like you're, you know, at a championship
level except for that lead guard spot, and you have
a thirty seven year old Kevin Durant, then maybe that's
when you use a little bit of that future draft
equity to fill this hole. We're a few months away
from that as of late September, but it's something that
at least you need to keep in the back of
your mind. And that's where I think replacing Fred externally

(43:56):
comes into play. It's not guys who can sign from
the minimum right now. It's the types of players that
make sizable contracts twenty thirty, even forty million dollars a year,
and then you can aggregate salaries from players that sign
new deals this offseason. That'll be December fifteenth, January fifteenth,
leading up to the trade deadline. That's when the window
will actually be open to potentially replace Fred externally. I

(44:20):
don't think that's the preference. I think the Rockets they
love Fred. People in the building are devastated by this
on a personal level because of what he means. I
think people in the locker room are as well, so
they would love for him to get healthy, ideally before
the playoffs. And even if it's a different looking role,
he's good enough with his leadership, with his shooting that

(44:40):
you can slide him in this time of year from
now and figure it out, even if his role needs
to be scaled down. He's a very low maintenance guy,
so I think the hope is that it works out
as is and you can sort of patch this up
between your young players taking leaps and you know, maybe
Erin Halliday has the secret sauce again, that sort of thing.
But if you have to look externally, it's that window

(45:02):
in the middle of the season and the types of
players that would be available at the trade deadline, maybe
some teams fall out of contention. That's where I think
replacing Fred outside of your current roster becomes much more
realistic on a number of levels. So Pallo, I know
you've been sort of digging into the possibilities today. Who
are you looking at when it comes to that December

(45:23):
fifteenth or January fifteenth date. I'll throw out one that
I've heard loosely as a hypothetical a few places. True
Holiday in Portland. That's someone who has ties to ima
Udoka from his Boston days. Fits into the defensive culture.
I know the Blazer's traded for him this offseason, but
clearly they're not that close to contending. His contract is

(45:46):
a couple of years longer than Fred, So if you
give them a shorter contract than Fred and potentially a
ton of salary relief, he could, if he wants out,
just become a free agent next summer. If you have
to include a little bit of draft equity. I mean,
it sucks to get up for a guy in his thirties,
but if you have a thirty seven year old Vin
Durant you think you're that damn close to a title,
then yeah, there's a world where Drew Holiday as your

(46:08):
Fred band Fleet replacement could make sense as you get
closer to the trade deadline. That's just one example, but
it is something that the math could work. As you
get closer to the trade deadline and you can aggregate
salaries including Fred at twenty five million dollars. That's one
example of POLO. I know you've got a few others.
What initial conclusions have you came to.

Speaker 5 (46:29):
Yeah, So, as as far as options go, I think
you have a pretty clear ceiling on how much salary
you can you can give up. And you have to
take into consideration that the rockets are really close to
the hard cup, so they can only take one million
more than what they're giving sending out. So you have
Fred making twenty five million a year. I don't think

(46:51):
they're looking to move Drrian Phinney Smith or Steven Adams.
I think Prime Candy to be moved with pequin Cappella
at seven million eire So you're looking at a maximum
of that thirty two to thirty three million dollar range.
That's the Mexican You can also go lower right, and
so looking at these names, I think there's a few

(47:11):
things that you take into consideration. Length of contract is
obviously really important because you have a man counts on
who you're going to extend. You already have Jerry Smith
Junior walked into his extension and Apron Shingun as well,
even though they're teen friendly does manner, and obviously Katie
is likely going to sign an extent and I would guess,
so you've got to take into consideration and the length

(47:33):
of the contract of the guy you're trading. If they are,
you know, a hot fix for this season maybe next,
or if they are a long term solution of building block,
and then you've got to consider that the Rockets have
the assets Rocks can give up. There's a big delta
between the low tier assets and the hyper assets. So
you have second round picks, which everything in the league has,
and you can give those up pretty freely. But then

(47:56):
if the jump from that to a first round pick
in Houston's case, is a delta of value, that's really big,
because well, on the short term bes that the Rockets have.
In the short term, they are really valuable Sunspicks, Nets Picks,
Dallas Maverick Specks, even though those are less valuable with
Cooper Flag then you have your own picks in five

(48:16):
years which could be valuable. You never know the future
lead and you don't really want to be marketing that
without you know being sure that your contenderal long term
Rockets are well positioned. But that's always a risk. So
if you're going to give up a first strong topic,
it's likely going to be a really good one. So
it kind of takes us off a little bit of
the sweepstakes of those med tier guys. So I guess

(48:40):
I split the guys that work financially into three tiers.
The guys who are treading four and that are building
blocks for the future, the guys that are know in
that middle tier in which they may be available for
second round big capital, but they have down sites. And
then the guys who are likely just one season band
aids or you know, guys that you'd only really go

(49:03):
for if things are going really badly. And so I
guess I guess I'll go tier by tier, and I'll
ask if you'd be interested in any of the guys
from this year, and if not, I'll move on to
the upper tiers. My first tear, and bear with me.
I know the names are ugly. That year would be
you know, Malik Monk, call him Sexton, Terry Rogier And

(49:28):
this one hurts even more, Jordan Poole. These are the
guys that you be able to get for really cheap,
but you really stink any interest at all? Or would
this either have to be completely going hey wire for
you to even consider any.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Of these.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Who if you're asking me necessarily but not as excited
about those names. Terry Rozier is somebody that you could
probably get pretty cheap. Jordan Poole as well. I don't
think they quite fill that role, you know. I mean,
I know you illustrated that, but that's just more of

(50:04):
a Jalen Green type of fill in my opinion than
a Fred Van Valid.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Although Terry Rozier could boost your draft kings possibilities once
Texas eventually legalizus gambling.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
All right, all right, it was an I knew.

Speaker 5 (50:18):
I knew the reception was going to be bad to
this one, so I just had to get it out
of the way because I know the people on Twitter
are looking at these names and going off, oh my god,
we get a Hooper again. All right, let's move on
to the second tier. Second tier only has two names,
and I think you can give you know, most of
the guys can give just an opinion on both of them,
because both of them might think would be in consideration.
This second tier is the guy that Ben just mentioned

(50:40):
True Holiday, which involves obviously a three year commitment in
this contract. The second one is Amperni Simons, who was
on an expiring deal. Would you be interested in any
of those?

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Well, I feel like Boston did that just specifically gather cap.
I mean, unless it's a three way deal moving Fred.
I don't think they would want to take Fred's salary back,
but I don't think I would. Although I think Simon
is a very good player. I think he's probably a
little underrated, but I don't think I would do that personally.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
What about the Drew option for you? I know them
gone into it, but I want to have care take
on it as well.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Drew Holiday would be awesome.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
The problem is he's got two years and a third
one after that as a player option, and I think
at about thirty two thirty three million something along along
those lines, he's currently thirty five years old. You have
to be pretty sure that's the guy you want for
there for that time period because his contract's not lovely,
let's say. But I think he as far as the
type of player, he'd be ideal to fill Fred's role,

(51:43):
No question, Drew would be great.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Yeah, And I'll say Drew is something closer to the
Fred archetype to me, anthroty Simon's I like him as
a player as well, but in terms of archetype, it's
sort of similar to Malik Monk, maybe you know, a
rich Man's version. But if we're talking about needing a
drop in replacement for Fred, Drew is a little closer.
And that's the other good thing about this built in
waiting period is that, as Dave mentioned, there have been

(52:08):
so many changes this offseason. This team is not gonna
look the same way they did when we last saw
them in early May against the Warriors. I mean obviously
losing Fred, but also Jalen and Dylan. As they mentioned,
that's three of your five starters that are now gone.
So this is going to look and feel very different.
And so I think if you have forty to fifty
games of data before you make a decision, then that's

(52:31):
going to give you a much better understanding than you
have right now of exactly what role you need to fill.
So I guess my answer on Drew is it depends.
I mean, some of it depends on how he plays
in Portland and is his contract going to age well
in terms of trying to project out the you know,
two and three years from now, but Beyond that, it's
also what do the Rockets specifically need, And if they

(52:51):
specifically need something closer to the Fred archetype, then yeah,
I am more intrigued by Drew than I am the
other names.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Who have been mentioned thus, And if I could throw
one other thing in there, I do think if you
really look at this, you look at how the front
office thinks and everything. This is just my personal belief.
I think adding Katie at thirty seven does make them
win now a win now team.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Now.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
I agree that most of their core is younger, right,
I mean Shngun's three men twenty three, Read twenty one's
Borti twenty two, blah blah blah, Tari twenty four, they're
all quite young. But I know we can argue this.
They probably acquired their best player, at least certainly offensively.
And Kevin Durant. I don't think that's a slight to
anybody on the team. He's just an amazing player. But

(53:37):
he's thirty seven. So I think this team really wants
to win now. So along this conversation, I think they're
going to do something. I think Fred is an absolute
trade candidate. As you guys are pointing out and I
still think their eye is always towards the big fish.
And I go back to the beginning of the off
season where they hoped or thought that Yannis was going

(53:58):
to be asking out and they were going to be
in that line. So I'm not trying to mention yan
As here necessarily as you know, an off season or
excuse me, a midseason type of acquisition. But I still
think they're going to be looking for that big fish
first and possibly using Fred's contract, but certainly if if
they can't find that, I think they're going to try
to just fill his role with something. But overall this,

(54:22):
you know, the way that that rafel Stone thinks and everything,
they're always thinking long term and trying to build, you know,
in other words, thinking long term with their salaries, but
trying to build right now a team that can win.
With Kevin Durantz, why Katie came here, it's why I
think that they're going to commit to him.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
To do.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
So.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
And I think that that is a nator that's on
the table that we really didn't talk about, which is
Fred that we're getting hurt doesn't really change or you know,
perhaps it even encourages you more to go for a
gabicanas because well, you guy Yana's Katie and saying, oh,
you know, you don't really care who your lead ball
handler is because those guys can you know, just do

(55:00):
it themselves and not be too worried about it. I'll
move on to my you know, top tier. It's three guys.
It's what I think would be more of a dream
SCENARIOIO brilliantlikely, and then I'm a more a lower budget
guy and a higher budget guy. My three guys are.
The lower budget guy would be Andrew Namphard from the basers,

(55:22):
who you would guess is not available, but the basers are.
The Pacers are without Tarry Sally Burton, you know who
knows how they will rebuild that team they lost Miles
s Turner. It's really hard to predict what they would do,
you know, and how they would want to build for
the future. You know, probably a full reset next off
season around Taris Aliburton. Again, he might peak someone who's
available at the right price, making eighty million dollars year,

(55:45):
you know, pretty cheap deal. Second guy is the more
expensive guy, and not a lot of people, not everyone
is a fan of his, but I manue quickly was
on those next really good defensive teams. He's obviously a
shorter guard, but as a really large Links fan, obviously
really good Tuter offense, So we can do a lot
of the same things that Fresent lead.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Can.

Speaker 5 (56:05):
You know he's at thirty two million dollars a year.
His contract is a little rougher, but you know, if
you if you him as a building book, that's an option.
And then the dream scenario, which is really unlikely because
Boston already shaved all of that salary, would be Derek White. Now,
ultimately these guys would likely require moving on from you know,
Phoenix picks perhaps later on, perhaps reached shepherds. You know,

(56:28):
prices would be higher. You know, I'm guessing I know
the answer on Derek White, but I'll leave it open ended.
You guys can pick any of them and talk about them.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Yeah, they would be crazy for Derek White. I'll let
you talk Ben, But yeah, I mean they would they
would give up picks for Derek White.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah. I think maybe the very able to watch will
be how the Celtics before, because there's two options there.
There's Anthony Simons as one of the lower tier, and
then there's Derek White at the higher tier if things
go more off the rails that expected. Nobody expects them
to be a championship contender this year the gap year
for Jason taate them. But if they look like a
five hundred team in the East to where the long

(57:05):
term out look they did deal two core guys in
Holiday and perzingis and you never quite know how it
all looks until the next year. If it looks like
they have to start looking at a longer term window,
then yeah, that opens up more possibilities. There's good relationships
between the for An offices. Obviously Imo Udoka and his
staff have ties there. It's different conferences, so I don't

(57:27):
think there'd be a hesitation to work with the Rockets.
So yeah, Simon is a lower tier certainly Derek White
as the upper tier. To me, Boston getting off to
the slow start is probably the best case scenario for
the Rockets because it opens up all the possibilities. And
I'm I'm in agreement. Derek White would be a home
run move. That's the one that fills the fredmin Fleet.
I mean, it's better than Fred ben Fleet. It's the
archetype and then some So yeah, to me, that's the

(57:50):
dream scenario.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Yeah, and front office coaching staff all love him, so
they would they would do quite a bit to get
Derek White.

Speaker 5 (57:57):
I think.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Let me throw in one other name. There is another
lead guard that the Rockets almost signed in twenty twenty
three before they signed Fredvin Fleet, and he's got some
experience with the Rockets. By the way, he's also got
some experience with Kevin Durant, and that's James Harten. Now
some people might recall hearing that, and let me be clear,

(58:24):
I have not been told that by anyone involved with
the Rocket However, what I will say I do know
the fron office and e May they definitely respect his game.
There's a lot of uncertainty with the Clippers, both outlook
in terms of how the team is age and now
all this stuff going on with Kawhi and perhaps the
salary cap store convention and the investigation that's going on.

(58:48):
If things are going sideways for the Clippers and there's
an opportunity to buy low on James Harden using Freden
Fleet's salary and a little bit of matching filler, would
you be open to that. I know it's a different archetype.
There's a reason the Rockets went with Fred and not James. However,
the team has also changed some since then, so perhaps
the need evolves a little bit. What do you think

(59:10):
about I admit it's a small possibility, but about the
hardened reunion path if the price is low enough, because
I don't think the price would be that high at
his age. I feel pretty confident in saying James would
want to be here. I think that is extremely clear
by now. What do you think about that as sort
of being in your back pocket? Because I know the
Rockets did some digging, and at least for a basketball standpoint,
they still value him as a player. They know he's

(59:32):
very good. I think he'd be inspired to want to
play here. What do you think about that as sort
of the the ace in the whole card in case
you need it?

Speaker 4 (59:40):
You want me to go pallo, I didn't know if
you want to jump in on that one.

Speaker 5 (59:43):
Yeah, I'll let to go first on Crimson to some numbers, solely.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
I go back to I mean, the funniest part about
that is when you first mentioned this, Ben all Air,
I thought you were leading up because your description fits
perfectly as well for Russell Westbrook, and I was like, oh, hell, no, Ben, please, but.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Uh, you know James Harden.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Let's just from what we know about James Harden, I
would be willing to bet if anything goes south in
LA he wants to be here. KD is here, This
team is young and looking up. They've got good role
players around key offensive players. So I don't have any
information in that regard, and I don't know what it
would take. And you know, like I said, LAC was

(01:00:23):
really good last year. Their defense was fantastic to close
the year. So I don't know if necessarily nothink he's
going to go south. But the whole Kawai thing is
really really wild.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
So if that were, if if for.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Any reason James Harden were to want out, Houston would
be number one on his list. What he said when
he left here, he meant it, he wanted to come back,
He planned on coming back in twenty three. It was
the Rockets that kind of rebuffed him, to be totally honest,
So you know, there's nothing to get excited about. But
it would be really wild if he ended up coming
back here with Kevin Durant. It's already wild that he's

(01:00:58):
in LAC with Paul. That's a whole other can of
worms to talk about that they're back together. But it
would be crazy if he was back here.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Let's just say that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
And I would not be against it at all. I
think James Harden, it's uncanny how many you know times
we've seen him sort of fail at the end of
the playoffs, but he is just too good. I would
unquestionably bring him back. I know some people would not
agree with that, but I would.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
I guess Chris Paul would be a lesser option, but
I think he'd be at a clearly lower tire.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
And you know, I tell you what, Chris Paul, just
from a couple of years ago, would be perfect, just ideal.
And yeah, it's a shame that, you know, we couldn't
get him now we didn't necessarily need.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
Him, but he would be great too.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
They need smarts, they need solid two way play, can
knock down the open shot. Don't necessarily need a lead,
athleticism or just insane gifts. You just need smart leadership
and plays, which you need at this moment. But yes,
that's another good name to throw out there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Hello, I'll let you have the final word. The Harden
and CP three reunion possibilities, Any interest there.

Speaker 5 (01:02:09):
I mean, so the heart really wants to say yes,
and honestly the brain also kind of sees it as
an option. There's some obstacles right, as I said, Financially,
if you're going to go after James Harden, he's making
thirty nine million, you would need the combination of either
freden Vliet and Stephen Adams or freden Vliet, Quinn Cappella

(01:02:31):
and Read Shepherd. You like, if you go for Harden,
you've got to give up you know, one guy that's
a core piece of the rotation, whether it's Steven Adams,
Reed Shepherd was Frevan Lick. You know, if it's got
to give up Capella. If it's Adams, you don't, but
that's gonna be your place. I like, you've got to
give up at least one key rotation piece of side

(01:02:52):
spread if you want to go for Harden. As far
as the fit, I mean, you did make the point
like La was really good defensively last season. Sarden does
want to come back, and he'd be extremely motivated if
he did get back here. Obviously when he left, he
said he'd come back. He tried to come back a
couple years ago and the Rockets weren't that interested because
they were trying to change the culture. I think at
this point the culturalism stilled, and even defensively, I think

(01:03:18):
hard And would be or worse defender. But I don't
think we'd have any other liability out there as far
as defense goes, and so even if he needed to
hide them on post players, you could things plenty mobile
enough I think at this point to have him gone
for as like the stuff we did with Harden back
when he was here the first time around, we can
still do. He's still that guy, and contractually he has

(01:03:40):
the player option. I think Hard to come back would
work with us, would work with the front office to
you know, make whatever structure on the work for the
Rockets to be comfortable with it if that meant the
clining that we were up, and I think he would
do that. But even if he wouldn't, A one plus
one is pretty much ideal for the Rockets. It would
end right before men Fompton's extension kicks in, and so

(01:04:05):
you would be perfectly comfortable bringing him in from a
saury gap management standpoint. Long term, it would be really
up to do you believe you can win a championship
with a team that consists of a starting lineup that's
likely to be James Harden and Men Thompson, Kevin Durant,
your pick of Buryin, Finnis Smith, Ja Barriotari and Shane

(01:04:25):
un with the bench that comes with it, I think
you can. And I think that steadiness on the ball
would really help us, and even a diminish version of
James Sarden compared to what he was when he was here,
it kind of fits even better into what we need
right now, which is not necessarily another ISO scorer or
we got Kad for that, but more of a for general. Obviously,

(01:04:48):
as they've said, Harden would love to come back. He
has a really good relationship with Kad. You know, yeah,
I think you can tell the result from that Brooklyn
trio was that Kad grew closer to harm and not
necessarily the original wherein they had and I think they
both believe that if given the tense again without career,
that they would have gone further. So the heart really
wants it and the brain is slightly positive on it.

(01:05:12):
Knowing now what has happened with Fredventley, I think you
are expecting a more negative response than you got from
the both of us.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Yeah, I was actually, you know, I thought of it
just looking through the list of potential big names on
bloated contracts, on teams that aren't guaranteed contenders, you know,
guys that could theoretically be available without breaking the bank. Now,
Dave made a really good point in that maybe the

(01:05:41):
stars align and you have all these picks. You know,
Giannis is a name we've talked about in the past.
Maybe someone else comes on the market, and maybe it's
even a better time to use spread as a matching
filler in a bigger deal that you would probably do anyway,
and so perhaps that happens. I was looking at it
more in terms of who could you get that might

(01:06:03):
have that level of impact but not that level of
trade price, and so you're looking at guys are likely
a little bit older, and you know, situational fits, And yeah,
I was thinking of it more as a Oh, that'd
be sort of cute and funny that the Rockets chose
to fight over James, and then they might have to
do the reverse two and a half years later. But

(01:06:23):
there might be a little bit of sense to it,
Like I guess the way I'll close the pod. It's
not the worst idea in the world. I think we
can all agree on that. And Helo, did you mention
anything on CP three, any interest there or no?

Speaker 5 (01:06:37):
I think I think it's when its course with him,
especially defensively, I don't I'm not sure he will be
playable in the.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Playoffs at this point. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Fair, And I'll just say Harden tends to strong arm.
If you want something, he tends to really put all
out for it. So I mean to me, it would
be more if James Harden got word of this. It's
not like he hasn't hooked up with Katie before, trying
to know behind the scenes, make things happen. But again,
we're just speculating here. It just would be funny if

(01:07:05):
it came, if that's something like that came.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
To reality, Yeah, for sure, pure speculation. I want to
make that clear. I have not heard the name James
Harden from any one inside the building. It's just something
looking at contracts and looking at some of the possibilities
of lead guard types that might be available if the
stars aligned by February. And I think the Kawhi cap
situation puts the Clippers in a bit more uncertainty, a

(01:07:30):
bit more chaos than we would have thought a month
or two ago. Yeah, I thought of it initially. It's
just sort of funny, and now the more I think
about it, I do raise my eyebrow a little bit.
I don't want to talk about too much because well,
we've already recorded for over an hour and that's months away,
but it is something that isn't quite as implausible as
I might have initially thought. Anyway, with that, I'll bring

(01:07:51):
this pod to a close because we've had a lot
of good content today and quite frankly, we're going to
be able to discuss this for a while because they're
not really going to be able to resolve this extra
only if they do need to resolve it externally until
the middle point of the season, so we'll have plenty
of time between now and next winter to gather more information,
see how other situations around the league transpire, and of

(01:08:12):
course we can revisit these takes at a later date.
For tonight, this is where we'll break and if you
want more content before our next show again, we show
have episodes next week once media Day and training camp start,
but the best place to get content and the interim
is on social media and online. You can follow me
at Bendubau's, Dave at Clutch Fans, Pollo at Pallo Alves NBA,
but also the websites. You can read my work in

(01:08:33):
USA Today's Rockets Wire, rocketswire dot com. You can read
clutch fans dot net, the blog where Dave has been
covering the Rockets for nearly thirty years now. It's also
got a ton of great forums. Hollow, I think you
still have the Nameless newsletter. At least you did have
the Nameless newsletter, right.

Speaker 5 (01:08:49):
It's one of those things I wrote on it, I
think once and fit up againts.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
Well, maybe you'll need to find to do content sorce
this year, because, boyd, not only are the expectations side now,
the injury is tire as well. After everything that's happened today,
not all of it great, but at least it's something
to talk about anyway. Chientlemen, thank you so much for
the time. Dave, thanks for joining us,