Julie Bauke, Founder and Chief Career Strategist The Bauke Group

We replay our interview with Julie Bauke, Founder and Chief Career Strategist with The Bauke Group, as she talks with Mike Christian passionately about leadership, Gen Z, boomers, and the benefits of a multi-generational workplace.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Welcome back to What's at Risk.I'm Mike Christian. We're here with Julie
Balk. She's an expert in careercounseling. She's worked with corporate executives,
corporations, and a wide array ofsenior professionals. Julie is a sought out
major media expert, workshop host,and keynote speaker. She's been featured in

(00:31):
more by more than one hundred mediaoutlets, including CNBC Money Magazine and weekly
segments with scripts, nice to haveyou here, to Julie, thank you,
Oh thank you. Maybe we juststart with you talking a little bit
about your background and your organization andhow you got to where you're at today.
My entire business and really my beingis around career happiness, helping people,

(00:55):
no matter where they are in theircareer life cycle, find out what
career happiness means for them given wherethey are, and then helping them put
together. I'm going to get it. I think so much of our lives
really builds around how we feel aboutthe place we spend the most time in
a week, which is worked.And so you know, I started in
human resources and had people in andout of my office constantly complaining and I

(01:21):
thought, if it's so bad,why are you still here? But you
really can't say that to people,it's kind of frowned apart. So I
really said, you know, Ithink what matters most to me in this
world is people making jobs that theycare about and that they can every day
happy to be there, or atleast not miserable. And so I've built

(01:42):
this entire business around the idea ofcareer happiness for all. Yeah, that's
great. And do you work mostlywith individuals or is it a kind?
I know it's a combination of corporationsand individuals. Is B to B and
D two C? We worked withindividuals, but just last year we came
out with a program for companies sothey can provide a framework and tools for

(02:06):
people to discover career happiness right wherethey are instead of feeling like they have
to leave. Because, as weknow the youngest generations, if they don't
like you the way you look atthem, they leave. And so organizations
don't really have a response to that. They don't really know how to connect
their people to their careers, totheir mission. And so last year we

(02:29):
developed a tool called Career Catalyst thatdoes just that, that helps build retention
and engagement with the people you wantto keep well. I can't think of
a more dynamic time in the workplacethan right now over remote work. Five
generations in the workplace, there's alot going on. I like to say
that we're watching, we're seeing thesausage being made and it is ugly.

(02:50):
That's a good way of saying it. So, now the generation disease coming
in, and you know, they'rethe youngest generation, they're entering the workforce,
what does that mean for us older? And I was preferring to myself,
not you, but no, no, I'm right there with you.
You know. I think what weshould be striving for is a multi generational
workforce. But what typically has happeneduntil gen Z came along is that there

(03:14):
was this nice pipeline that flowed inorganizations. We brought new people in the
front end, knowing that they weren'tall going to stay, but most of
them would, and then they wouldthey would flow through the organization. As
the oldest people left the organization retiredwent on to do other things, you'd
have this great backfill of people.And that's worked. It's worked for organizations

(03:37):
pretty well. And now gen Zcomes along and says, you know,
we don't really want that. We'renot really going to play that game.
We don't want to work like youworked, and that has thrown older workers
into a complete tizzy over wait aminute, it was good enough for me,
it's good enough for you. Andthat does not resonate. And so

(04:00):
in the past, like older generations, we'd be told, you know,
what to do, when to doit, when we were ready to be
promoted, and it was very topdown. Gen Z comes along like,
yeah, no, we really wantwe want collaboration here, and organizations are
really a hard time adjusting to that. And so you've got I believe they

(04:21):
will never, never has been,or never will be a time in the
future where the gap between the oldestpeople in your workforce and the youngest people
in your workforce is greater, justin terms of attitudes toward work. And
so we've got to we've got tofind a way to find that common ground
because right now all the attention andthe handling and the pro clutching is around

(04:45):
gen Z. What do we doto attracting them? And we've got some
older workers who are saying, whocares, you know, they just need
to get with it, and thenwe have other older workers say no,
wait a minute, They're not entirelywrong. You know, I kind of
want more flexibility at work too,and we just haven't had the nerve with
a leverage to ask for it.So but when you look at the numbers,

(05:05):
if organizations don't create workplaces that meetthe needs of all of the generations
versus a one size fits all,which has always been what's been offered,
they're going to have a hard timeattracting, retaining, and engaging all across
the generational spectrum. From the GreatPlace to Work website, a multi generational

(05:30):
workforce is one in which employees canspan different generations. There are now five
generations in the workforce simultaneously Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, baby boomers,
and some members of the Silent generationstill working in their late seventies and
early eighties, a first in modernhistory. This means an employer today could

(05:53):
easily have young graduates working side byside with great grandparents. For managers of
the mull antigenerational workforces, engaging allgenerations is essential not just for employee satisfaction,
but also for the company's overall success. Diverse and inclusive workplaces have higher

(06:14):
employee retention, higher revenue growth,and a greater readiness to innovate. So
I'm just going to read a coupleof stats here and then get your thoughts
on workers between fifty seven and seventyfive years older staying in the workplace longer,
longer than ever before. Actually,and by twenty thirty an estimated one
hundred and fifty million jobs will shiftto workers over the age of fifty five.

(06:38):
And that's according to a new studyfrom Bane and Company. And it
predicts that older and experienced workers willmake up more than a quarter of the
workforce by twenty thirty one. Infact, it's almost forty percent in Japan
and other countries. So it's notjust the United States. It's a global
type of thing. What do youthink striving that? Why are people what
happened to retirement? A couple ofthings there. So when you look at

(07:01):
so let's let's go back to COVID. COVID was ending and people were coming
back to work. Let's say theyare being told come back, you know,
come back into the four walls.Here, boomers actually retired quote unquote
at a faster pace than ever beforebecause they said, I don't want to
go back to the way it was. And so boomers, a lot of

(07:23):
boomers left the workforce, and Isaid at the time, a lot of
them are coming back. They're justnot coming back the way they left.
So we've got this case where we'vegot people who are reinventing themselves. There's
a lot of movement around reinventing yourselfas an older worker, and this desire
to not go sit on your frontporch and watch prices right. Although there's

(07:45):
nothing wrong with prices right, thereis is gone and people are saying,
you know, I want to stayrelevant. I want to stay not only
physically healthy, but I want tosay mentally and emotionally healthy. So but
then let's not forget the elephant inthe room. There is also that a
lot of those people can't afford toretire. So some of it is not
just what I'm just doing this tokeep myself active, and it's like I

(08:07):
have to. I don't have themoney to retire. And so we've got
need and desire on the part ofolder workers and older workers, if you
think about it, are workforces thatare led by older workers. They understand
each other better and So why nottake if you've got a couple people who

(08:28):
are maybe older but still want flexibility, maybe they got grandkids, maybe they've
got other issues. Why not createa situation where I can have this person
two days a week and this personthree days a week. It's predictable.
They know the organization, they understandthe culture, they know the history.
They're going to become more desirable,both from a we understand you, to

(08:52):
an institutional wisdom, to the factthat older workers can help bridge the gap
with the younger generation in terms ofmentoring because so many of these younger workers
they came of age during COVID andso they come into the workforce and they're
practically fairal and nobody knows what todo with them. And so there's a
lot of opportunity for older workers tostay relevant in a variety of ways.

(09:16):
And do you think it's it's alsoit's definitely driven by finance. And I
think a lot of people just they'regoing to live longer and they can't afford
to retire and not work for therest of their lives. Do you think
life expectancy Longer life expectancies are drivingthat. Also, sure, we are
healthier we are healthier, we aredoing more. We are so different than

(09:37):
our parents' generations, and that iswhat and part of a healthy life,
a whole healthy life is keeping yourselfengaged. I mean, there's all kinds
of research about it. Staves offAlzheimer's, it stays off, staves off
all kinds of other disease. Andso when you look at what a whole
and balanced life is staying relevant aspart of it. Now, some people
will say, I do volunteer work, I do this, I do that.

(10:00):
Very few people over a certain agewant to work the eight to five
grind anymore because you know, genz is like, hew, we don't
do it. But you know alot of people are like, you know,
I did this my whole life,and I am kind of over it.
You probably hear it from your friends. They want to work, they
want to see relevant, they wantto they want to do it differently because

(10:20):
they do have presumably a longer runwaywhere they're actually healthy and able to do
so. So all these factors justcome crashing together, and workplaces companies are
so ill prepared to deal with itthat when we see when we have a
lot of change come crashing at us, the natural human reaction is to try

(10:41):
to hang on to what's familiar,and that just doesn't work. And we
see it from Elon Musk to JamieDiamond to you know, all these people
who are saying, no, youknow, get back here, because we're
going to take you back to theway it was. And what they're not
understanding is that the younger workers aresaying, thanks, Yeah, often build
something on their own and they don'thave to do it. We didn't have

(11:05):
any options. Yeah, there wasno remote work, and I started working.
That's sure, And I think you'reright. The trains left the station
on the fact of the remote work. I mean, it's just a fact,
and it's a competitive aspect of recruiting, and it's there, it exists,
and you definitely have to deal withit. I also read not to
be stat driven here, but Iread another stat that only four or five

(11:28):
percent of employers are really prepared toaccommodate and support older workers. What are
your thoughts about that? Well,when you mentioned Japan, first start talking,
and they have a different view oftheir elders than we do. And
we are an ageist country and youdon't. You only have to look at
our advertising and who we revere tosee that. And I have clients and

(11:56):
friends, people in their late fiftieswho say, I'm getting overlooked at work
because they don't think I'd ever leave, So they don't think they have to
put any focus on me because theythink, well, where's she going to
go? She's fifty eight. Ohyeah, they're going because smart organizations say,
well, wait a minute, ifyou're fifty eight and you're going to

(12:18):
stay for five to seven years,that's a better bet than gen Z,
who might bounce after six months.So there is there is smart organizations are
looking at everybody and saying, howcan we make this a workplace for all?
If you aren't putting all of yourfocus on the front of that pipeline,
you're probably really frustrated because people arejoining the pipeline and leaving as fast

(12:41):
as you can put him in thefront. And so there's just all this
handbringing around what is wrong, Andthen what happens is the narrative becomes gen
Z's lazy, Like, hmm,okay, gen Z wants to work differently,
and when people are bringing their handsover and Z and how they're quote
unquote lazy, I'm like, whoraised them. We did, and it

(13:03):
is part of what we're seeing,is part of the frustration and sort of
the struggle getting launched as a partof gen Z is they were raised by
the helicopter parents who gave a participationtrophy to everyone and told their kids that
they're special and they knocked all theirbarriers out of the way. So then
they get to work and they're soendyous because they're so afraid to fail and

(13:28):
not be the most special snowflake thatthey don't have the skills. They don't
have the skills to overcome a quoteunquote failure or being given feedback that isn't
aligned with their parents told them.So we very much as those of us
who raised Z, we have ahand in this. I mean, this

(13:52):
didn't happen in a vacuum, ohfor sure. So it's playing out in
the workplace and now organizations that haveto try to fix that, and so
they become not just organizations that havework to get done, but they've had
to be kind of retraining rounds ortraining rounds for the youngest generations who didn't
get it anyplace else. Yeah,I don't subscribe to the gen Z.

(14:16):
The common gen z view that youknow, they're lazy and they really don't
want to work that hard, orthey just wants to be remote and everything
I do see a lot of goodthings, and it is our future.
So I feel strongly about that.The one ironic part about remote work is
that you know, when you andI were younger and starting in work,

(14:37):
there was no remote work. Soyou just go in the office every day,
and so to learn, you wouldyou would learn in a variety of
different ways. You might take courses, you might have structured classes, but
mostly you learn just sort of randomly. You had a question, you go
to the to the senior person inthe office next ye ask the question,
and it happened all day long.And it's not like the formality of zoom,

(15:00):
or if you zoom, if you'reinteracting with people over zoom, you
have to schedule it and you're kindof like you're on on film or on
camera. It's it was just morerandom and more casual, but more effective,
I think. And so the youngergeneration is is really with the remote
work, is losing out on that, and I think that's that's an unfortunate

(15:22):
thing, because the older people canbe mentors and they could be advisors and
they can they can help craft thesethese young people and help them in their
careers. And I think the opportunityis lost if it's all remote. Yeah,
I agree. And some companies arethere coming up with great solutions,
like for the first X number ofweeks, you're going to go through all

(15:43):
these things and you're going to bein the office. Then we'll talk about
hybrid and so they bring them inand they immerse them, or some companies
are doing culture days, Culture andcollaboration days, you have to come everyone's
in Tuesday and Wednesday, and sothey're what they're what they found out though,
because when COVID was ending and theywere and to get people to come
back, they were doing stupid thingsfree tacos on Tuesday. People are like,

(16:04):
yeah, I'm not pulling myself infor an hour commute for free taco.
And so they were bringing people infor stuff that didn't matter. And
so the customart companies said, Okay, so what have we lost by hybrid
and remote, culture, collaboration,creativity, innovation, et cetera. Okay,
how can we build that into whenwe bring people in? How could

(16:26):
to work when we say come inthe office It's not just come in the
office and sit there and do everythingthe same that you do when you're at
home or so I can watch you. It's what are we going to do
to build What kind of activities arewe going to have, How are we
going to get people together? Whatare we going to create when people are
in the office that's going to makeit valuable for them to come in and

(16:49):
valuable for the organization. I thinkmost places are going to end up with
a hybrid. I was talking tosomeone the other day who said, they're
on a project where he works forconsulting for They're on a project where he's
he works for that firm, andthey're on a project where the head of
the company that they're at the projecton was like, everybody, even our
even our soul, five days aweek in the office and these are id

(17:12):
people. And he said he hashamstrung us because no, zero, it
t people are going to be inthe office five days a week, zero,
And they keep trying to hire peopleand people like nope, nope,
nope, nope. So sometimes peopleget an inflate of sense and what they're

(17:33):
what their level of control is overthe workplace and have free will they can
go and they will go elsewhere ifthey can't get what they want. And
so organizations right now they're struggling with, given our customers and what our customers
expect, given our industries, giventhe people we hire, given our talent
pool that we have to recruit from, what works best. And what they're

(17:56):
going to have to do is giveleeway function by function. It might want
to might need to operate differently thanmarketing, and we need okay with that.
You can't say, look, ifyou've got a job as an occupational
therapist or a physical therapist, oryou have to be hands on with people,
you can't complain about not being ableto work from home because that's your

(18:19):
profession. Your profession dictates where yousit, and each profession is different and
what it requires. And so youas an organization have to have the courage
to say to somebody whose job absolutelyrequires but in five days a week,
the job you're in requires this.The job bred is in does not require

(18:40):
this. And organizations have been prettymuch not willing to have that discussion because
we're not good at having hard conversations. What they do is they say,
okay, everybody in the office it'snot going to work anymore. I think
that word courage is the right word. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot
of that. Yeah, so wego back to really it's sort of a
bifurcated question here. You have thecompanies that we talked about right in the

(19:03):
beginning, maybe five percent are preparedto maybe accommodates not the right word,
but to support older workers in ameaningful way, and then not doesn't have
the courage to have everybody come in, especially the younger people, and say,
look, that's part of the job, and you're not going to get

(19:25):
mentored if you're not here in theoffice. How do they reconcile those two
extremes. No, what is sointeresting about that question is, you know,
companies will be like, I don'tknow what they want, you know,
blah blah blah, We don't knowwhat to do. We try this,
we try this. I'm like,I have this really, really,
really great idea. Why don't youask them? It just amazes me to

(19:47):
companies. Why didn't I think ofthat? Companies are like, I'm doing
we do a yearly employee survey.Okay, well that is a waste of
time because things change daily. Practically, and so what if you actually put
together a survey where you ask yourpeople what would be most meaningful to them

(20:08):
and have them rank things or havethem and then put together teams of people
to come up with solutions. Now, I know that organizations sometimes are afraid
to do that because they think thatthen they're on the hook to do whatever
people ask for, and it's nottrue. People want to be asked.
There's some wonderful survey work out ofGallop that talks about what people need to

(20:34):
feel appreciated and recognized and it isso simple, so simple, and that's
what people want. That and thelink that the so I saw the survey,
it's my favorite survey. I tookten factors of work and then it
asked employers to rank what they thoughttheir people wanted, rank them one to

(20:56):
ten. They took the same tenfactors and they ask individuals what they wanted
rank them. What the employers hadis the top three were the employees bottom
three. And what I love themost about that survey it was done in
nineteen forty two. Oh wow,isn't that interesting. We have a very

(21:17):
long history of complete lack of understandingof what's important and so this is not
new, but what it is isit's a it's an outcome of a top
down culture where we have the biggerjobs, the bigger offices, the bigger
titles. We're going to tell youwhat's best for you, and those of
us gen Z kind of went alongwith it, like, okay, well

(21:41):
you are saying you must be smarter, and so now that we have to
actually ask people what they want andact like their input matters, and actually
maybe act on some of it andnot kind of minimize what they want.
It's like organizations don't know how toact. They don't know actually how to
lead, they don't how to say, g team, that was some great

(22:02):
ideas. You gave us five goodideas. We can only implement one of
them right now. But we're goingto do that. Making people feel heard,
appreciated, recognized. It's a basichuman need. But managers are not.
I think about a manager's kind ofI got my thumb on you.
I'm going to tell you what todo, and managers, I get it.
Mid level people are getting squeezed managerlike leaders, managers, employees.

(22:26):
Let's say, managers are getting squeezed, and I understand that, and so
it's it's I know it's hard,but you can actually make your job a
lot easier if you actually got inputsfrom your people about and not feeling like
I'm the manager so I'm supposed tohave all the answers. And it comes
with things like benefit programs and howwe're going to how we're going to make
a hybrid work environment work. AndI mean ask your people. They're the

(22:48):
ones you think. Look at theUndercover Boss show. What did the CEOs
learn? They learned? They hadno idea what it was like to be
an employee of that organization. Andso I think a little bit of humility,
a little bit of genuine curiosity,and a little bit of real intentional
conversations with people in your organization wouldgo miles beyond where you think it would.

(23:11):
Yeah, I think that's almost adying art in America. I could
go down the same road there.So what would So we're getting close to
the end here. I wanted tojust ask you. It's a two part
question. What would your advice Youjust gave advice really to employers and to
leaders. What would your advice beto gen Z people coming into the workplace

(23:37):
and to senior people in the workplace, What would your advice for success and
for you know, just fulfillment rightnow with what the workplace is today.
You know, I talked to alot of gen Z and I have been
in ubers with a lot of genZ lately, and I always bring this

(23:59):
up, talk about what are youdoing? Why are you doing this?
And it is amazing. They areso much smarter and more aware than we
give them credit for. And whenI'll talk to them and they'll say,
oh, my parents say, andso I'm going to get in trouble for
sayings. But I also I alwayssay, don't listen to your parents.
Don't listen to your parents because they'regiving you boomer advice. And I'm a

(24:22):
boomer, so I feel like Ican say that. But the advice that
they're giving you is all they know, and so they believe that you have
to follow the path they did,and so you want to for gen Z.
For younger people, you do needa healthy dose of intuition, but
you also have to take a breath, look around and try to learn whatever

(24:42):
you can wherever you are at thatmoment. You have to learn wherever,
whatever, wherever you've landed and you'vegot to be willing to try some things
and fallow in your face. AndI tell people all the time, I
do stupid things I think every day, and the people who love me still
lo So you can't be afraid ofthat. But you do have to start

(25:03):
building out a body of work,so to speak. You have to get
really aware of what you're good atand what you like. If you can
simply say here's what I do,here's what i'm good at, and here's
what I like, you can takethat and just build on that and keep
pivoting. Our career should be livedin chapters, not a whole clime.
Now, on the other end,the older folks stay relevant. It is

(25:26):
not up to your company to keepyou relevant. It is up to you.
And so if you're making a bigamount of money, but your value
to the organization is not seen asbeing equal to what you're being paid,
you will be on the layoff list. So check yourself. Stay up to
date on technology. Don't say we'venever done it that way. Don't be

(25:48):
an older mudgeon, because you areexpendable. We all are except to you
to keep and maintain and communicate yourvalue and stay up to date. It's
called your career for a reason,A lot of sense. We've been speaking
with Julie Belki. Julie, greatinsights, great advice for everybody. I
really appreciate your time today. Thankyou. A big thank you to our

(26:23):
producer, Ken Carbury of Chart Productions. What's on your Mind? Send us
your thoughts, comments and questions toWhat's at Risk at gmail dot com.
That's one word, what's at riskat gmail dot com. Thank you to

(27:06):
expect to the party to comput