February 28, 2022 • 35 mins
April 1989. Bob goes after his most important target: Pat Marcy. But as he works his way up the criminal ladder, he risks being discovered.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin Jake Alpern here before we get started, I wanted
you to know that deep Cover Season two will be
dropping weekly on Mondays, but the full season is available
right now ad free for Pushkin Plus subscribers. That's all
(00:36):
ten episodes right away. Fine Pushkin Plus on the deep
Cover show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.
Previously on deep Cover. In nineteen eighty six, Bob Cooley
(00:58):
began working with the FBI as an undercover operative, and
he started going after smaller targets like bookies and some
big ones too, including a stage senator, but he still
had more work to do. Bob's ultimate target was Pat Marcy.
He ran the First Ward, a powerful political district controlled
(01:20):
by the Mob. He was a nasty, vicious human being.
You could tell it. If you met the man, you
would know that he's pure evil, but unbelievably powerful in
every sense. Bob knew that if he really wanted to
accomplish his mission, he had to nail Marcy. Marcy was
the big fish. Bob Cooley wasn't the only one trying
(01:47):
to expose Pat Marcy in the First Ward. There was
a TV journalist trying to do the exact same thing.
Her name was Carol Maureen. She would go on to
become a big time correspondent for sixty Minutes, but back
in the eighties she was a local reporter for Channel five.
And Carol has this one very vivid memory from back
(02:09):
then of going out to launch by herself. I remember
one day being in Counselor's Row, which was the restaurant
across from City Hall where the first Ward had a
table where the first Ward guys and those who were
invited would sit and have lunch. Jes. So you can
picture the place. Imagine black leather booths, wood paneling, blood
(02:32):
red carpet, lots of old black and white photos up
on the wall. This is a place where deals are cut,
not all of them kosher. Even the menu hinted at this,
advertising a gigantic burgher called the Lawbreaker. That particular day,
Pat Marcy was there sitting at his usual table. With
(02:53):
him was John Diarco Senior, one of his most trusted confidants,
father of John Junior, the poet and state senator. Anyway,
Carol just goes about her business, takes a seat, looks
at the menu, ordered a bowl of soup. The waitress
came back and said, mister Marcy and mister Garco picked
up your check, and I said, I don't want them
(03:15):
to pick up my check. And she looked at me like,
all yeah, kidding me, And so I mean, I wasn't
going to trick bag her. But I went back to NBC,
ordered a big fruit basket and sent it to the
First Ward to cover the cost of my bowl of soup.
It wasn't a coincidence that Carol just popped into Counselor's
(03:39):
row that day. I was always drawn to sort of
secret societies. The idea of penetrating something that people don't
want you to see that you want to know more
about has always been of interest to me, And in Chicago,
there was perhaps no secret society more steeped in mystery
and power than the First Ward. Technically, the First Ward
(04:03):
was just one of the city's fifty legislative districts. Even so,
back in the nineteen eighties, the First Ward was among
the most important because it included downtown Chicago, Chinatown, and Greektown.
But in truth, it was much more than this. The
First Ward was the Mob's Ward. It always was. Everyone
(04:24):
knew it. We had long discussions in the newsroom, other
reporters and myself about how do we get into that,
how do we prove it, how do we show it?
And it was always a challenge. Part of the challenge
was the fact that Pat Marcy flew beneath the radar.
Why because he was elusive. He was not in the
(04:47):
public view on purpose. The way it organized crime truly
works is you don't know who they are. The Pat
Marcy's are the people that operate behind the scenes with
the real power. But Carol, she was patient. She worked
her sources, talked to them on pay phones, just listened
(05:09):
and slowly built trust. And then one day, years after
cultivating sources, the phone rings and a voice says, go
to counselor's row. Now, little did Carol Marine know she
was about to cross paths with Bob Cooley and the FBI.
(05:31):
Not just that she would soon find the evidence that
she needed, she was about to break a major story
on the first ward and this would put Bob in
a very precarious situation where he might be outed or worse.
(06:11):
I'm Jake Halbern and this is deep Cover mob Land
episode eight, The Big Fish. By this point, Bob had
(06:41):
been working undercover for over two years. The FBI referred
to the whole effort as Operation Gambat, short for Operation
Gambling Attorney, an apt name. Of course, Bob himself was
a gambler. He also represented bookies who ran the mob's
gambling operations, and in a way, this whole operation itself
(07:03):
was one big gamble. Now it was time to go
after Pat Marcy. The FBI had been trying to incriminate
him for twenty years and they'd gotten nowhere. Ironically, Bob's
big break came from his brother, Bill Cooley. Bill was
a lawyer like Bob, but an honest one. Bill had
(07:24):
a client with a property in the First Ward that
needed rezoning. So Bill did what he was supposed to do,
went to see the First Wards Alderman, a guy named
Fred Rody. Rody was an elected official, but he was
also very much a mob guy. People joked openly that
Roodie's campaign motto really ought to be vote for Rody
and nobody gets hurt. When Rodi discovers that Bill is
(07:51):
Bob's brother, he suggests, rather cryptically that Bob should call him. Eventually,
Bob gets wind of this. I knew exactly what it
meant I know what he wants. He's gonna want to
bribe and whatever. And this is a perfect opportunity for Bob.
Bob didn't have to come up with some scheme and
approach ROADI No, this was far better. Rody had solicited
(08:15):
this bribe on his own. Just to be clear here,
Rody wasn't as big a fish as Pat Marcy, but
he was still an important player. Bob and the FBI
cooked up a plan. Bob would bribe Roady to get
the building rezoned. The FBI would provide the money, Bob
would get the whole thing on tape. So Bob arranges
(08:37):
to meet Rody at Counselor's row. They sit down and
Bob lays it all out. I made up some stuff.
You know, Well, they got a big building and they're
gonna make millions doing this and doing that and whatever,
and I want to know how much it's going to
cost to take care of it. While we're talking, who
comes walking up with Pat Marcy? Yeah, v Pat Marcy,
(09:01):
the big boss. He comes around the corner and he
sees us sitting there, and he said, what's going on here?
It was an awkward moment. Marcy seems suspicious Bob says,
Rody seemed a bit like he was a kid who'd
been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I
have no doubt in my mind that Rody was going
to do this steel himself. I was going to do
(09:23):
this and was going to cut Pat out of whatever
it was, because he says, oh, Pat, he said, I
was going to tell you about this path. Rody jumps
to his feet and offers his chair to Marcy. Marcy
sits down. At this point, Rody explains what's going on.
Bob is here on business with a request to rezone
(09:43):
a building. According to the transcripts, here's what's said next
on the wire. Marcy says, quote, tell me who the
fucking owners are. Bob explains that the owners are square,
meaning they don't want to be directly involved with paying
a bribe. Marcy tells him, quote, you're going to need zoning.
(10:04):
What else are you going to need there? And like that,
Marcy has taken He's now in charge. He tells Bob, quote,
once we see what it is, then we'll talk about it.
In other words, that you have to pay if you
want to get something done, and you know what are
the facts, and you know what says, and what's that?
And I'll determine how much it's going to cost and whatever.
(10:26):
But Path cut himself into the steel. To Marcy, it
must have seemed like Rody was taking all the spoils
for himself, and a strong man like Marcy could never
let that happen. And so Marcy intervenes and walks right
into Bob's hands. So Bob presses ahead with his bribery scheme.
(10:48):
At his next meeting with Rody at Counselors Row, Bob
brings a pad and a pen. He's got a bunch
of notes written on the pad with made up specs
on this building that needs to be rezoned, and then
he looks up at Rhody and says, quote, tell me
what the procedure is. Now. That's code for how much
is this thing going to cost me? Rody then grabs
(11:11):
the pen and notepad and writes down the number seventy
five and underlines it. Roadie's being careful, playing it smart,
not saying anything out loud. Here's what's said next on
the wire, Rody, you know what I'm talking about, Bob. Yeah,
little ones, not big ones. That's also code. Bob is
(11:32):
clarifying what exactly seventy five means. He's asking if it's
seventy five little ones, which would mean seven hundred and
fifty dollars. Roady, No, seventy five hundred, Bingo. Roody is
broken code. Apparently he got frustrated or careless, and he
just says the exact amount, which is fantastic for Bob.
(11:56):
All that Bob needs to do now is get the
actual payoff on tape. So as discreetly as he can,
Bob pulls out some money and says, quote, let me
give you five hundred now, so you've got some lunch
money in your pocket. The next step for Bob is
to put cash in Marcy's hands. So three days later,
(12:17):
Bob straps on his tape recorder again and returns to
Counselor's row. Pat Marcy is waiting for him and escorts
him to the back of the restaurant. Bob asks him
if the figure that Rody has given him is okay translation,
is seventy five hundred a big enough bribe for you?
Marcy tells him, quote, the figure's okay. Bob then counts
(12:38):
out thirty five hundred dollars the first installment. Marcy takes
the money on tape and in so doing incriminates himself.
Now you might be tempted to think, okay, then Bob's
done here, right, He's god Marcy, why doesn't he get
the hell out of Dodge? But that's not how Bob
(12:58):
saw it. He was determined to make certain that the
case against Marcy and the first ward was airtight, so
no judge or jury could possibly acquit. There was more
work for Bob to do. He had to pay off
a second installment on that zoning bribe. He also had
another scheme in mind. He was trying to get Marcy
to tamper with another court case. Bob's handlers at the
(13:22):
FBI agreed with this strategy. Here's Marie Dyson. He just
kept going back to Marcy. He could do that, and
then if it didn't feel right that day, he'd stay
away from Marcy for a while. How dangerous was Marcy?
Very deadly? And the scary part was there were so
(13:42):
many ways he could blow his cover. Stupid little things
could go wrong. In fact, this is exactly what happened
a while later, when Bob returned to Counselor's Row for
another visit with Marcy. That day, they're actually outside the restaurant,
chatting on the sidewalk. They're getting ready to go inside.
(14:03):
Marcy gestures for Bob to go first, and then he
places his hand on Bob's lower back, on the exact
spot where Bob's tape recorder is tucked away. So when
he did that, I mean it was like somebody hitting
me with a hammer. And I was terrified that he had,
you know, that he would know what it was. Bob's
(14:25):
mind is racing, trying to come up with his next move.
I'm just acting, trying to act as non chalant as
I can, but believe me, I'm a nervous rock. At
this particular instant, Bob and Marcy entered the restaurant together.
They head over to the first word table. I went
like I was going to sit down, and then I
pulled myself up as you would if you know you
(14:46):
had a problem, as Oh my back was killing me.
I said, you know, and I've got this brace and
it's not helping. It's not helping a whole lot. The
back injury is bullshit. Bob was just making it up
on the spot, and the back brace, well, that was
Bob's cover. So if by chance Marcy had felt something. Well,
then there was an explanation, But would Marcy? The problem was,
(15:11):
there was no getting into Marcy's head. Did he know?
Was he suspicious? And what was his threshold for quite
literally pulling the trigger. Bob and his FBI handlers were
all guessing. When we come back after the break, Bob
pushes his luck. It had been a close call with Marcy,
(15:46):
and Bob still didn't know if he was safe. He
talked the whole thing over with his handlers, the carpool buddies,
Steve and Marie. You know you're scared, and he's scared,
and everybody's scared. Anything could happen. We were going to
do everything in our power not to make a mistake,
because this guy could get killed just like that. Given
(16:07):
all of this, it was inevitable that Bob started to
go down some dark rabbit holes thinking about the worst
case scenarios of how it might end for him. I
don't think I really feared. I didn't fear dying. I
feared being tortured. I did not think I would like that.
Bob had once been friends with a gangster named William
(16:30):
Butch Petrocelli, who'd fallen out of favor with the mob.
Bob believes he was one of the last people to
see Butch alive. Bob says they had lunched together one day.
Butch disappeared a few days later. Months passed without any
sign of him. Then Butch's charred body was discovered. He'd
been stabbed in the chest and his body had been
(16:52):
burned with a blowtorch. I'd wake up sweating and whatever
because I saw myself being tortured. I kept seeing pictures
of Butching kind of playing a blow torch to my
testicles and things like that that you know that I
was terrified that Bob knew he needed a contingency plan,
(17:13):
something he could do to save himself from this fate.
I had condom plated carrying, you know, carrying some kind
of tablets, so I could commit suicide if you know,
if they caught me. But you know, but I just
never did do that. And the reason I didn't do
that is because I would have gone to hell them.
I believe that committing suicide, you know, is one of
(17:35):
those sins that you can't do. It was ironic in
a way. Bob was a man who enjoyed his pleasures, money, sex, power,
and he was willing to bend the rules to get
all of these things. But in the end, he would
not compromise his own moral code to save himself from
the most gruesome of endings. Instead, Bob decided to carry
(17:57):
a gun, two guns in fact, which was a problem.
Here's Bob's handler, Steve Bowen. Bob was never authorized to
carry a gun under any conditions. Did I know on
occasion that he had a gun on him? Yeah? And
did I do anything about it? No. If I was
(18:18):
going in to do what we're asking him to go
in to do, I'd want a gun on me too.
I asked Bob what his plan was. What would be
his move if he walked into some back room and
a group of mob henchmen were waiting for him. I figured,
if I walked into the room and there's a group there,
just start shooting. When it came to decompressing, Bob didn't
(18:42):
have a lot of options. The FBI wouldn't let him gamble.
Bob wasn't married, and he didn't have anyone he could
totally confide in. He never went to a therapist, but
he did have at least one form of Catharsis feeding
wildlife yep. For a while, Bob lived in an apartment
on the outskirts of Chicago. It was on the first floor,
(19:04):
and Bob liked to open up the glass doors, sit
outside and feed the animals. Birds would come, but what
he really liked were the raccoons. They'd watch him eat
and feed, and I'd have a little water gun because
I'd have to spray the mother raccoon because she'd beat
up and the kids see no fighting for the food.
But I just enjoyed doing stuff like that. This image
(19:28):
has stayed with me. I imagine Bob, after a stressful
day of work undercover, coming home, taking off his coat,
sending his gun down on the table, then walking through
those glass doors, picking up a water gun and using
it to protect the baby raccoons, making sure they got
enough to eat. Bob told me he loved all animals
(19:51):
except rats and snakes. Why because they're dirty little creatures.
They remind me a lot of some people. And snakes
For some reason, I just don't like snakes, although he
quickly added, these are guy its creatures. Ay, all they
want in life is to you know, eat and fall
(20:13):
around and you know and survive. Sadly for Bob. Eventually
he decided that the first floor apartment it wasn't safe.
He just felt too exposed there, so he moved to
another apartment on the fourth floor of a nearby building.
He still tossed food off the balcony, but it wasn't
(20:36):
quite the same. In so many ways, life just kept
narrowing for Bob, and now even the baby raccoons were gone.
Bob kept going with his undercover work. There was no
way of knowing whether Pat Marcy had felt that tape
(20:59):
recorder on his back, so cautiously he returned to Counselor's
row wearing a wire and armed with his two guns.
His goal was to bribe Marcy once again to get
him on tape, agreeing to tamper with a court case.
This time. As he answers Counselor's row, Bob is on
a high alert, so is his handler, Steve Bowen, who
(21:20):
is stationed across the street. Inside the restaurant, Bob has
a look around. Almost right away, he sees a mobster
named Ernest Rocky in Falie. Rocky was a burly guy,
a former paratrooper with a well earned reputation for brutality.
Bob plays it cool. He makes the rounds, mingling with
(21:43):
the regular patrons, and then he sees pat Marcy cat
Marcy was standing there and when he saw me, didn't
say a word, just motion for me to follow him.
Where too, That's the question. Bob glances about and realizes
he can no longer see Rocky, but there's no time
(22:03):
to look for him because he's got a stick with Marcy.
Marcy heads outside, but instead just stopping there on the sidewalk,
he continues heading towards a parking garage. Bob's trying to
get his bearings and quickly. I right away was nervous, wondering,
you know, this is something totally unusual. I didn't know
(22:25):
whether the hell they we're going. That's Bob's handler, Steve Bowen,
watching it all play out from across the street, whether
they were going off in a car, they want to
take him in a restaurant whacking, or whether they just
wanted to top twing in there. Steve is in a bind.
If he intervenes and rushes in too soon, he could
blow Bob's cover or start a gunfight. But if he
(22:47):
waits too long, Bob Mike get killed. Meanwhile, Bob's now
walked into the parking garage with Pat Marcy. He still
hasn't seen Rocky at this point. He's just going with it,
and we walk through the big door where the cars
come out, and we walk into a little shitty bathroom.
Pat walks in there. I'm following him, and I'm envisioned.
(23:09):
I've got two guns on it this time. What I'm
thinking is I'm walking behind him. This may be a trap.
When he opened that door, I'm ready to pull one
of my Volbos out and start shooting in case there's
people in there. I'm not going to talk. I'm not
going to say a word. I'm going to start shooting,
two guns at the ready. Bob stands there as Pat
(23:31):
Marcy pulls open the door to the bathroom. I can
see it's a very small room and there's nobody in there.
I can see there isn't He walks over to the
urinal and he takes a leak. Now he's never said
a word to me. Bob just stands there in the
bathroom for what seems like forever. He's still on the
(23:52):
lookout for Rocky or some other would be a sail
at who might rush through the door at any moment. Meanwhile,
outside on the street, Steve can't wait any longer. It
was just me and I had to go, so started
to go in there after room, and then I'm going
hand I I'm gonna try to find him and protect
(24:13):
him if I acted, And just then he sees Bob
and Marcy walking back out, huge sigh of relief. It
had all been a false alarm. But to Bob it
didn't seem like a chance occurrence, not at all. There's
almost no doubt in my mind that they're testing I see.
(24:33):
So the test is if this guy's wearing a wire,
there's no way he's going to follow me into a
bathroom in a parking lot, exactly. I mean, you know,
I'd been dealing with these people for years. He's never
done something like that before. In all this time, Bob says,
he was determined to keep going. His handler, Marie, admired
(24:55):
his courage, but she knew how risky this was for him.
Every day that you continue to do this, it's a
scarier day because you when should you stop. You need
what you you need for evidence, you need what you
need to make cases. But at the same time, it's
becoming very It's the danger is increasing for Bob. This
(25:18):
is a human being. This is a person you know,
that has offered to do this and has asked very
little of us, and we are putting him in harm's way.
It seemed like for the moment, Bob was safe and
that Pat Marcy didn't know that the FBI was onto him.
(25:39):
But all of that was about to change. Little did
anyone know, a gigantic story was about to break, thanks
to the journalist Carol Marine. More on that after the break,
(26:05):
Carol Marine had been looking into the First Ward for years.
She's the journalist who visited Counselor's row, got a free
cup of soup and then sent the first Ward guys
a fruit basket. She kept plugging away with her reporting,
and then one day her phone rang and a voice said,
go to Counselor's row. Now we speed to Counselor's Row,
(26:29):
and what do you know? There is a camera discovered
by a bus boy inside the bench of a booth
that sat across from the first Ward table, connected to
coaxial cable up through the rafters, up through the floors
up to the other first Ward office. The FEDS had
(26:52):
bugged the first ward table, so Carol races to break
her story about the bug. Meanwhile, Bob is actually en
route to meet Fred Rody, the corrupt Alderman, to pay
him off for his help tampering with a case. Bob's
plan is to meet Rody at you guessed, at Counselor's Row.
(27:15):
At this point, Bob has no idea that a camera
has been discovered at the restaurant. In fact, Bob doesn't
even know that the FBI has installed such a camera there.
No one had bothered to tell him, and now he
was walking right into it completely blind. I get out
of the car, I start walking on the sidewalk, you know,
(27:38):
to go into Counselor's Row. And I get about halfway
from the alley to there when he sees Fred Rody,
the corrupt Alderman, because he was waiting for me. It
turns out, when he saw me, he came out and
he motioned me to walk across the street with him,
and he started walking across the street. Now I have
no idea what's going on at this time? What the
(28:01):
fuck is this? Roadie turns to Bob and breaks the news,
tells him about the hidden camera that's been discovered. Bob
is floored and right away, what hell a bug? Where
what bug? Bob is legitimately shocked here he's not putting
on a show. He had no idea about that bug.
(28:22):
Rody leads him across the street to city Hall and
takes him up to his office. Now his office is
a huge, a huge room, and it's but see things
about thirty forty feet up. And he's not saying a word.
Now we're not talking at all. As we're walking towards her.
We go in and now I'm thinking in my mind,
(28:45):
this is some kind of a trap for me. Bob
tries to calm himself down. I mean, they're not going
to kill him in city Hall, right, he had to
keep his composure. When we walk in there, he closes
the drapes and has us said a word, and then
comes over to me and says, have you got the money?
Have you got the money? In other words, game on
(29:08):
Roadie still wants to get paid, which means he still
trusts Bob, which means for the time being, Bob is safe.
And I was never so happy in my life to
hear some words. I started counting it out, knowing if
I'm counting it. You can hear it on tape. When
you're counting money, you can hear that. And I'm saying one,
two or three, and I give him the money. So amazingly,
(29:32):
Bob executes his plan. He gets the bribe on tape.
But all hell breaks loose when Carol Marine breaks her
story for Channel five. For years, it has been rumored
that some of Chicago's most interesting political deals have been
made at one particular table at a restaurant near City Hall.
The night is shocking surprise for the movers and shakers
(29:53):
who sit at that table. Federal agents have been watching
them through a hidden camera, and Carol has the exclusive details.
Ron The discovery of the camera seems to have blown
the lid off part of a major investigation. For more
than two years, the Federal Strike Force on Organized Crime
has been looking at Chicago's infamous First Ward. Tonight, the
story of how part of that investigation has unraveled on camera.
(30:17):
A lawyer representing the restaurant shows Carol around, takes her
over to the spot where the camera was concealed. It
occupied this area right here, Carrol, which is not more
than a heap of them. The machine itself appeared to
be a James Bond type device. It was a bus
boy a few days ago who, in cleaning, lifted the
seat of this booth, and, to his amazement and the
(30:39):
amazement of his bosses, discovered a very sophisticated camera setup,
a camera that was pointed at this corner table commonly
referred to as the first Ward Table, the table where
Bob had sat with Pat Marcy many times. Channel five
News is learned the FBI is not just interested in
the conversations of those who sit at the First Ward Table,
(31:00):
that this probe is an examination of far more than that.
The FBI is looking at gambling in Chinatown, which is
part of the First Award. It is probing any violations
of the Hobbs Act, which addresses official corruption, and it
is investigating attorneys, judges, state employees, and politicians. For Pat
Marcy and the First Ward guys, this must have been
(31:22):
like an air raid siren going off. First comes the
news that their unofficial headquarters Counselor's row has been bugged,
and now Carol Marine is telling them straight up that
the FBI is investigating their entire corrupt network. So what
do you do when you get news like this? I think.
(31:43):
If you're Pat Marcy, you take a good hard look
at your own people. You consider the facts, facts like this,
Bob Cooley just paid Rody a bribe. And if you're
Pat Marcy, wouldn't you wonder can we really trust Bob?
And if the answer is no, what are you going
(32:04):
to do about it? Bob knew his time was almost up,
but he wasn't ready to walk away just yet. Bob
wanted to track down his old friend, a judge he
had ribbed long ago in that murder case that he'd
fixed involving the hitman. In many ways, fixing that case
had been Bob's original sin, and he felt, even all
(32:28):
these years later, that he still had some unfinished business here. Meanwhile,
Carol Maureene was getting ready to break an even bigger
story next time on deep Cover. For approximately five years,
(32:53):
a Chicago lawyer has been a government informant, secretly recording
conversations with some of this city's movers and shakers. The
identity of this informant will come as a shock to
some powerful people. Deep Cover is produced by Jacob Smith
(33:28):
and Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Shakerjee. Our senior
editor is Jan Guera original music and our theme was
composed by Louise Gera and Fawn Williams as our engineer.
Our art this season was drawn by Cheryl Cook and
designed by Sean Karney. Mia Lobell is our executive producer.
Special thanks to Heather Fame, John Schnars, Carlie mcgliori, Maya Kaning,
(33:51):
Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Mary Beth Smith, Brant Haynes, Maggie Taylor,
a Coolemarano, Magan Larson, Royston Beserve, Lucy Sullivan, Edith Russlo,
Riley Sullivan, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, and Jacob Weisberg. I'm
Jake Albert. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can binge
(34:56):
the rest of the season right now adds free. Find
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Pushkin Jake Alpern here before we get started, I wanted
you to know that deep Cover Season two will be
dropping weekly on Mondays, but the full season is available
right now ad free for Pushkin Plus subscribers. That's all
(00:36):
ten episodes right away. Fine Pushkin Plus on the deep
Cover show page in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.
Previously on deep Cover. In nineteen eighty six, Bob Cooley
(00:58):
began working with the FBI as an undercover operative, and
he started going after smaller targets like bookies and some
big ones too, including a stage senator, but he still
had more work to do. Bob's ultimate target was Pat Marcy.
He ran the First Ward, a powerful political district controlled
(01:20):
by the Mob. He was a nasty, vicious human being.
You could tell it. If you met the man, you
would know that he's pure evil, but unbelievably powerful in
every sense. Bob knew that if he really wanted to
accomplish his mission, he had to nail Marcy. Marcy was
the big fish. Bob Cooley wasn't the only one trying
(01:47):
to expose Pat Marcy in the First Ward. There was
a TV journalist trying to do the exact same thing.
Her name was Carol Maureen. She would go on to
become a big time correspondent for sixty Minutes, but back
in the eighties she was a local reporter for Channel five.
And Carol has this one very vivid memory from back
(02:09):
then of going out to launch by herself. I remember
one day being in Counselor's Row, which was the restaurant
across from City Hall where the first Ward had a
table where the first Ward guys and those who were
invited would sit and have lunch. Jes. So you can
picture the place. Imagine black leather booths, wood paneling, blood
(02:32):
red carpet, lots of old black and white photos up
on the wall. This is a place where deals are cut,
not all of them kosher. Even the menu hinted at this,
advertising a gigantic burgher called the Lawbreaker. That particular day,
Pat Marcy was there sitting at his usual table. With
(02:53):
him was John Diarco Senior, one of his most trusted confidants,
father of John Junior, the poet and state senator. Anyway,
Carol just goes about her business, takes a seat, looks
at the menu, ordered a bowl of soup. The waitress
came back and said, mister Marcy and mister Garco picked
up your check, and I said, I don't want them
(03:15):
to pick up my check. And she looked at me like,
all yeah, kidding me, And so I mean, I wasn't
going to trick bag her. But I went back to NBC,
ordered a big fruit basket and sent it to the
First Ward to cover the cost of my bowl of soup.
It wasn't a coincidence that Carol just popped into Counselor's
(03:39):
row that day. I was always drawn to sort of
secret societies. The idea of penetrating something that people don't
want you to see that you want to know more
about has always been of interest to me, And in Chicago,
there was perhaps no secret society more steeped in mystery
and power than the First Ward. Technically, the First Ward
(04:03):
was just one of the city's fifty legislative districts. Even so,
back in the nineteen eighties, the First Ward was among
the most important because it included downtown Chicago, Chinatown, and Greektown.
But in truth, it was much more than this. The
First Ward was the Mob's Ward. It always was. Everyone
(04:24):
knew it. We had long discussions in the newsroom, other
reporters and myself about how do we get into that,
how do we prove it, how do we show it?
And it was always a challenge. Part of the challenge
was the fact that Pat Marcy flew beneath the radar.
Why because he was elusive. He was not in the
(04:47):
public view on purpose. The way it organized crime truly
works is you don't know who they are. The Pat
Marcy's are the people that operate behind the scenes with
the real power. But Carol, she was patient. She worked
her sources, talked to them on pay phones, just listened
(05:09):
and slowly built trust. And then one day, years after
cultivating sources, the phone rings and a voice says, go
to counselor's row. Now, little did Carol Marine know she
was about to cross paths with Bob Cooley and the FBI.
(05:31):
Not just that she would soon find the evidence that
she needed, she was about to break a major story
on the first ward and this would put Bob in
a very precarious situation where he might be outed or worse.
(06:11):
I'm Jake Halbern and this is deep Cover mob Land
episode eight, The Big Fish. By this point, Bob had
(06:41):
been working undercover for over two years. The FBI referred
to the whole effort as Operation Gambat, short for Operation
Gambling Attorney, an apt name. Of course, Bob himself was
a gambler. He also represented bookies who ran the mob's
gambling operations, and in a way, this whole operation itself
(07:03):
was one big gamble. Now it was time to go
after Pat Marcy. The FBI had been trying to incriminate
him for twenty years and they'd gotten nowhere. Ironically, Bob's
big break came from his brother, Bill Cooley. Bill was
a lawyer like Bob, but an honest one. Bill had
(07:24):
a client with a property in the First Ward that
needed rezoning. So Bill did what he was supposed to do,
went to see the First Wards Alderman, a guy named
Fred Rody. Rody was an elected official, but he was
also very much a mob guy. People joked openly that
Roodie's campaign motto really ought to be vote for Rody
and nobody gets hurt. When Rodi discovers that Bill is
(07:51):
Bob's brother, he suggests, rather cryptically that Bob should call him. Eventually,
Bob gets wind of this. I knew exactly what it
meant I know what he wants. He's gonna want to
bribe and whatever. And this is a perfect opportunity for Bob.
Bob didn't have to come up with some scheme and
approach ROADI No, this was far better. Rody had solicited
(08:15):
this bribe on his own. Just to be clear here,
Rody wasn't as big a fish as Pat Marcy, but
he was still an important player. Bob and the FBI
cooked up a plan. Bob would bribe Roady to get
the building rezoned. The FBI would provide the money, Bob
would get the whole thing on tape. So Bob arranges
(08:37):
to meet Rody at Counselor's row. They sit down and
Bob lays it all out. I made up some stuff.
You know, Well, they got a big building and they're
gonna make millions doing this and doing that and whatever,
and I want to know how much it's going to
cost to take care of it. While we're talking, who
comes walking up with Pat Marcy? Yeah, v Pat Marcy,
(09:01):
the big boss. He comes around the corner and he
sees us sitting there, and he said, what's going on here?
It was an awkward moment. Marcy seems suspicious Bob says,
Rody seemed a bit like he was a kid who'd
been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I
have no doubt in my mind that Rody was going
to do this steel himself. I was going to do
(09:23):
this and was going to cut Pat out of whatever
it was, because he says, oh, Pat, he said, I
was going to tell you about this path. Rody jumps
to his feet and offers his chair to Marcy. Marcy
sits down. At this point, Rody explains what's going on.
Bob is here on business with a request to rezone
(09:43):
a building. According to the transcripts, here's what's said next
on the wire. Marcy says, quote, tell me who the
fucking owners are. Bob explains that the owners are square,
meaning they don't want to be directly involved with paying
a bribe. Marcy tells him, quote, you're going to need zoning.
(10:04):
What else are you going to need there? And like that,
Marcy has taken He's now in charge. He tells Bob, quote,
once we see what it is, then we'll talk about it.
In other words, that you have to pay if you
want to get something done, and you know what are
the facts, and you know what says, and what's that?
And I'll determine how much it's going to cost and whatever.
(10:26):
But Path cut himself into the steel. To Marcy, it
must have seemed like Rody was taking all the spoils
for himself, and a strong man like Marcy could never
let that happen. And so Marcy intervenes and walks right
into Bob's hands. So Bob presses ahead with his bribery scheme.
(10:48):
At his next meeting with Rody at Counselors Row, Bob
brings a pad and a pen. He's got a bunch
of notes written on the pad with made up specs
on this building that needs to be rezoned, and then
he looks up at Rhody and says, quote, tell me
what the procedure is. Now. That's code for how much
is this thing going to cost me? Rody then grabs
(11:11):
the pen and notepad and writes down the number seventy
five and underlines it. Roadie's being careful, playing it smart,
not saying anything out loud. Here's what's said next on
the wire, Rody, you know what I'm talking about, Bob. Yeah,
little ones, not big ones. That's also code. Bob is
(11:32):
clarifying what exactly seventy five means. He's asking if it's
seventy five little ones, which would mean seven hundred and
fifty dollars. Roady, No, seventy five hundred, Bingo. Roody is
broken code. Apparently he got frustrated or careless, and he
just says the exact amount, which is fantastic for Bob.
(11:56):
All that Bob needs to do now is get the
actual payoff on tape. So as discreetly as he can,
Bob pulls out some money and says, quote, let me
give you five hundred now, so you've got some lunch
money in your pocket. The next step for Bob is
to put cash in Marcy's hands. So three days later,
(12:17):
Bob straps on his tape recorder again and returns to
Counselor's row. Pat Marcy is waiting for him and escorts
him to the back of the restaurant. Bob asks him
if the figure that Rody has given him is okay translation,
is seventy five hundred a big enough bribe for you?
Marcy tells him, quote, the figure's okay. Bob then counts
(12:38):
out thirty five hundred dollars the first installment. Marcy takes
the money on tape and in so doing incriminates himself.
Now you might be tempted to think, okay, then Bob's
done here, right, He's god Marcy, why doesn't he get
the hell out of Dodge? But that's not how Bob
(12:58):
saw it. He was determined to make certain that the
case against Marcy and the first ward was airtight, so
no judge or jury could possibly acquit. There was more
work for Bob to do. He had to pay off
a second installment on that zoning bribe. He also had
another scheme in mind. He was trying to get Marcy
to tamper with another court case. Bob's handlers at the
(13:22):
FBI agreed with this strategy. Here's Marie Dyson. He just
kept going back to Marcy. He could do that, and
then if it didn't feel right that day, he'd stay
away from Marcy for a while. How dangerous was Marcy?
Very deadly? And the scary part was there were so
(13:42):
many ways he could blow his cover. Stupid little things
could go wrong. In fact, this is exactly what happened
a while later, when Bob returned to Counselor's Row for
another visit with Marcy. That day, they're actually outside the restaurant,
chatting on the sidewalk. They're getting ready to go inside.
(14:03):
Marcy gestures for Bob to go first, and then he
places his hand on Bob's lower back, on the exact
spot where Bob's tape recorder is tucked away. So when
he did that, I mean it was like somebody hitting
me with a hammer. And I was terrified that he had,
you know, that he would know what it was. Bob's
(14:25):
mind is racing, trying to come up with his next move.
I'm just acting, trying to act as non chalant as
I can, but believe me, I'm a nervous rock. At
this particular instant, Bob and Marcy entered the restaurant together.
They head over to the first word table. I went
like I was going to sit down, and then I
pulled myself up as you would if you know you
(14:46):
had a problem, as Oh my back was killing me.
I said, you know, and I've got this brace and
it's not helping. It's not helping a whole lot. The
back injury is bullshit. Bob was just making it up
on the spot, and the back brace, well, that was
Bob's cover. So if by chance Marcy had felt something. Well,
then there was an explanation, But would Marcy? The problem was,
(15:11):
there was no getting into Marcy's head. Did he know?
Was he suspicious? And what was his threshold for quite
literally pulling the trigger. Bob and his FBI handlers were
all guessing. When we come back after the break, Bob
pushes his luck. It had been a close call with Marcy,
(15:46):
and Bob still didn't know if he was safe. He
talked the whole thing over with his handlers, the carpool buddies,
Steve and Marie. You know you're scared, and he's scared,
and everybody's scared. Anything could happen. We were going to
do everything in our power not to make a mistake,
because this guy could get killed just like that. Given
(16:07):
all of this, it was inevitable that Bob started to
go down some dark rabbit holes thinking about the worst
case scenarios of how it might end for him. I
don't think I really feared. I didn't fear dying. I
feared being tortured. I did not think I would like that.
Bob had once been friends with a gangster named William
(16:30):
Butch Petrocelli, who'd fallen out of favor with the mob.
Bob believes he was one of the last people to
see Butch alive. Bob says they had lunched together one day.
Butch disappeared a few days later. Months passed without any
sign of him. Then Butch's charred body was discovered. He'd
been stabbed in the chest and his body had been
(16:52):
burned with a blowtorch. I'd wake up sweating and whatever
because I saw myself being tortured. I kept seeing pictures
of Butching kind of playing a blow torch to my
testicles and things like that that you know that I
was terrified that Bob knew he needed a contingency plan,
(17:13):
something he could do to save himself from this fate.
I had condom plated carrying, you know, carrying some kind
of tablets, so I could commit suicide if you know,
if they caught me. But you know, but I just
never did do that. And the reason I didn't do
that is because I would have gone to hell them.
I believe that committing suicide, you know, is one of
(17:35):
those sins that you can't do. It was ironic in
a way. Bob was a man who enjoyed his pleasures, money, sex, power,
and he was willing to bend the rules to get
all of these things. But in the end, he would
not compromise his own moral code to save himself from
the most gruesome of endings. Instead, Bob decided to carry
(17:57):
a gun, two guns in fact, which was a problem.
Here's Bob's handler, Steve Bowen. Bob was never authorized to
carry a gun under any conditions. Did I know on
occasion that he had a gun on him? Yeah? And
did I do anything about it? No. If I was
(18:18):
going in to do what we're asking him to go
in to do, I'd want a gun on me too.
I asked Bob what his plan was. What would be
his move if he walked into some back room and
a group of mob henchmen were waiting for him. I figured,
if I walked into the room and there's a group there,
just start shooting. When it came to decompressing, Bob didn't
(18:42):
have a lot of options. The FBI wouldn't let him gamble.
Bob wasn't married, and he didn't have anyone he could
totally confide in. He never went to a therapist, but
he did have at least one form of Catharsis feeding
wildlife yep. For a while, Bob lived in an apartment
on the outskirts of Chicago. It was on the first floor,
(19:04):
and Bob liked to open up the glass doors, sit
outside and feed the animals. Birds would come, but what
he really liked were the raccoons. They'd watch him eat
and feed, and I'd have a little water gun because
I'd have to spray the mother raccoon because she'd beat
up and the kids see no fighting for the food.
But I just enjoyed doing stuff like that. This image
(19:28):
has stayed with me. I imagine Bob, after a stressful
day of work undercover, coming home, taking off his coat,
sending his gun down on the table, then walking through
those glass doors, picking up a water gun and using
it to protect the baby raccoons, making sure they got
enough to eat. Bob told me he loved all animals
(19:51):
except rats and snakes. Why because they're dirty little creatures.
They remind me a lot of some people. And snakes
For some reason, I just don't like snakes, although he
quickly added, these are guy its creatures. Ay, all they
want in life is to you know, eat and fall
(20:13):
around and you know and survive. Sadly for Bob. Eventually
he decided that the first floor apartment it wasn't safe.
He just felt too exposed there, so he moved to
another apartment on the fourth floor of a nearby building.
He still tossed food off the balcony, but it wasn't
(20:36):
quite the same. In so many ways, life just kept
narrowing for Bob, and now even the baby raccoons were gone.
Bob kept going with his undercover work. There was no
way of knowing whether Pat Marcy had felt that tape
(20:59):
recorder on his back, so cautiously he returned to Counselor's
row wearing a wire and armed with his two guns.
His goal was to bribe Marcy once again to get
him on tape, agreeing to tamper with a court case.
This time. As he answers Counselor's row, Bob is on
a high alert, so is his handler, Steve Bowen, who
(21:20):
is stationed across the street. Inside the restaurant, Bob has
a look around. Almost right away, he sees a mobster
named Ernest Rocky in Falie. Rocky was a burly guy,
a former paratrooper with a well earned reputation for brutality.
Bob plays it cool. He makes the rounds, mingling with
(21:43):
the regular patrons, and then he sees pat Marcy cat
Marcy was standing there and when he saw me, didn't
say a word, just motion for me to follow him.
Where too, That's the question. Bob glances about and realizes
he can no longer see Rocky, but there's no time
(22:03):
to look for him because he's got a stick with Marcy.
Marcy heads outside, but instead just stopping there on the sidewalk,
he continues heading towards a parking garage. Bob's trying to
get his bearings and quickly. I right away was nervous, wondering,
you know, this is something totally unusual. I didn't know
(22:25):
whether the hell they we're going. That's Bob's handler, Steve Bowen,
watching it all play out from across the street, whether
they were going off in a car, they want to
take him in a restaurant whacking, or whether they just
wanted to top twing in there. Steve is in a bind.
If he intervenes and rushes in too soon, he could
blow Bob's cover or start a gunfight. But if he
(22:47):
waits too long, Bob Mike get killed. Meanwhile, Bob's now
walked into the parking garage with Pat Marcy. He still
hasn't seen Rocky at this point. He's just going with it,
and we walk through the big door where the cars
come out, and we walk into a little shitty bathroom.
Pat walks in there. I'm following him, and I'm envisioned.
(23:09):
I've got two guns on it this time. What I'm
thinking is I'm walking behind him. This may be a trap.
When he opened that door, I'm ready to pull one
of my Volbos out and start shooting in case there's
people in there. I'm not going to talk. I'm not
going to say a word. I'm going to start shooting,
two guns at the ready. Bob stands there as Pat
(23:31):
Marcy pulls open the door to the bathroom. I can
see it's a very small room and there's nobody in there.
I can see there isn't He walks over to the
urinal and he takes a leak. Now he's never said
a word to me. Bob just stands there in the
bathroom for what seems like forever. He's still on the
(23:52):
lookout for Rocky or some other would be a sail
at who might rush through the door at any moment. Meanwhile,
outside on the street, Steve can't wait any longer. It
was just me and I had to go, so started
to go in there after room, and then I'm going
hand I I'm gonna try to find him and protect
(24:13):
him if I acted, And just then he sees Bob
and Marcy walking back out, huge sigh of relief. It
had all been a false alarm. But to Bob it
didn't seem like a chance occurrence, not at all. There's
almost no doubt in my mind that they're testing I see.
(24:33):
So the test is if this guy's wearing a wire,
there's no way he's going to follow me into a
bathroom in a parking lot, exactly. I mean, you know,
I'd been dealing with these people for years. He's never
done something like that before. In all this time, Bob says,
he was determined to keep going. His handler, Marie, admired
(24:55):
his courage, but she knew how risky this was for him.
Every day that you continue to do this, it's a
scarier day because you when should you stop. You need
what you you need for evidence, you need what you
need to make cases. But at the same time, it's
becoming very It's the danger is increasing for Bob. This
(25:18):
is a human being. This is a person you know,
that has offered to do this and has asked very
little of us, and we are putting him in harm's way.
It seemed like for the moment, Bob was safe and
that Pat Marcy didn't know that the FBI was onto him.
(25:39):
But all of that was about to change. Little did
anyone know, a gigantic story was about to break, thanks
to the journalist Carol Marine. More on that after the break,
(26:05):
Carol Marine had been looking into the First Ward for years.
She's the journalist who visited Counselor's row, got a free
cup of soup and then sent the first Ward guys
a fruit basket. She kept plugging away with her reporting,
and then one day her phone rang and a voice said,
go to Counselor's row. Now we speed to Counselor's Row,
(26:29):
and what do you know? There is a camera discovered
by a bus boy inside the bench of a booth
that sat across from the first Ward table, connected to
coaxial cable up through the rafters, up through the floors
up to the other first Ward office. The FEDS had
(26:52):
bugged the first ward table, so Carol races to break
her story about the bug. Meanwhile, Bob is actually en
route to meet Fred Rody, the corrupt Alderman, to pay
him off for his help tampering with a case. Bob's
plan is to meet Rody at you guessed, at Counselor's Row.
(27:15):
At this point, Bob has no idea that a camera
has been discovered at the restaurant. In fact, Bob doesn't
even know that the FBI has installed such a camera there.
No one had bothered to tell him, and now he
was walking right into it completely blind. I get out
of the car, I start walking on the sidewalk, you know,
(27:38):
to go into Counselor's Row. And I get about halfway
from the alley to there when he sees Fred Rody,
the corrupt Alderman, because he was waiting for me. It
turns out, when he saw me, he came out and
he motioned me to walk across the street with him,
and he started walking across the street. Now I have
no idea what's going on at this time? What the
(28:01):
fuck is this? Roadie turns to Bob and breaks the news,
tells him about the hidden camera that's been discovered. Bob
is floored and right away, what hell a bug? Where
what bug? Bob is legitimately shocked here he's not putting
on a show. He had no idea about that bug.
(28:22):
Rody leads him across the street to city Hall and
takes him up to his office. Now his office is
a huge, a huge room, and it's but see things
about thirty forty feet up. And he's not saying a word.
Now we're not talking at all. As we're walking towards her.
We go in and now I'm thinking in my mind,
(28:45):
this is some kind of a trap for me. Bob
tries to calm himself down. I mean, they're not going
to kill him in city Hall, right, he had to
keep his composure. When we walk in there, he closes
the drapes and has us said a word, and then
comes over to me and says, have you got the money?
Have you got the money? In other words, game on
(29:08):
Roadie still wants to get paid, which means he still
trusts Bob, which means for the time being, Bob is safe.
And I was never so happy in my life to
hear some words. I started counting it out, knowing if
I'm counting it. You can hear it on tape. When
you're counting money, you can hear that. And I'm saying one,
two or three, and I give him the money. So amazingly,
(29:32):
Bob executes his plan. He gets the bribe on tape.
But all hell breaks loose when Carol Marine breaks her
story for Channel five. For years, it has been rumored
that some of Chicago's most interesting political deals have been
made at one particular table at a restaurant near City Hall.
The night is shocking surprise for the movers and shakers
(29:53):
who sit at that table. Federal agents have been watching
them through a hidden camera, and Carol has the exclusive details.
Ron The discovery of the camera seems to have blown
the lid off part of a major investigation. For more
than two years, the Federal Strike Force on Organized Crime
has been looking at Chicago's infamous First Ward. Tonight, the
story of how part of that investigation has unraveled on camera.
(30:17):
A lawyer representing the restaurant shows Carol around, takes her
over to the spot where the camera was concealed. It
occupied this area right here, Carrol, which is not more
than a heap of them. The machine itself appeared to
be a James Bond type device. It was a bus
boy a few days ago who, in cleaning, lifted the
seat of this booth, and, to his amazement and the
(30:39):
amazement of his bosses, discovered a very sophisticated camera setup,
a camera that was pointed at this corner table commonly
referred to as the first Ward Table, the table where
Bob had sat with Pat Marcy many times. Channel five
News is learned the FBI is not just interested in
the conversations of those who sit at the First Ward Table,
(31:00):
that this probe is an examination of far more than that.
The FBI is looking at gambling in Chinatown, which is
part of the First Award. It is probing any violations
of the Hobbs Act, which addresses official corruption, and it
is investigating attorneys, judges, state employees, and politicians. For Pat
Marcy and the First Ward guys, this must have been
(31:22):
like an air raid siren going off. First comes the
news that their unofficial headquarters Counselor's row has been bugged,
and now Carol Marine is telling them straight up that
the FBI is investigating their entire corrupt network. So what
do you do when you get news like this? I think.
(31:43):
If you're Pat Marcy, you take a good hard look
at your own people. You consider the facts, facts like this,
Bob Cooley just paid Rody a bribe. And if you're
Pat Marcy, wouldn't you wonder can we really trust Bob?
And if the answer is no, what are you going
(32:04):
to do about it? Bob knew his time was almost up,
but he wasn't ready to walk away just yet. Bob
wanted to track down his old friend, a judge he
had ribbed long ago in that murder case that he'd
fixed involving the hitman. In many ways, fixing that case
had been Bob's original sin, and he felt, even all
(32:28):
these years later, that he still had some unfinished business here. Meanwhile,
Carol Maureene was getting ready to break an even bigger
story next time on deep Cover. For approximately five years,
(32:53):
a Chicago lawyer has been a government informant, secretly recording
conversations with some of this city's movers and shakers. The
identity of this informant will come as a shock to
some powerful people. Deep Cover is produced by Jacob Smith
(33:28):
and Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Shakerjee. Our senior
editor is Jan Guera original music and our theme was
composed by Louise Gera and Fawn Williams as our engineer.
Our art this season was drawn by Cheryl Cook and
designed by Sean Karney. Mia Lobell is our executive producer.
Special thanks to Heather Fame, John Schnars, Carlie mcgliori, Maya Kaning,
(33:51):
Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Mary Beth Smith, Brant Haynes, Maggie Taylor,
a Coolemarano, Magan Larson, Royston Beserve, Lucy Sullivan, Edith Russlo,
Riley Sullivan, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, and Jacob Weisberg. I'm
Jake Albert. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can binge
(34:56):
the rest of the season right now adds free. Find
Pushkin Plus on the deep cover show page in Apple
Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Host
Jake Halpern
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!